Nerf torpedo planes

[burnt matrix]

dmg wise and health wise they will always lose unless in sheer amounts

[grim wraith]

yes it needs actual unit buffs i just happened to write it in that thread. The lab cost DOES matter tho, hover lab has high BP cost means it takes a lot of time to make the lab and reclaim it

[burnt matrix]

not to mention it's easier to make grunts than hovers and cheaper

[grim wraith]

anyways we are getting off topic

[languid eagle]

ships should be transportable by light trans so you can dodge torps, duh

[analog current]

this is mostly irrelevant too but, I think hover opens would be alot better if the cons didnt suck so badly

they offer great utility but over 3k e for horrible bp?

making more than 1 always feels like a mistake

[zealous shale]

Will be nice to have a slight buff to Hover AA. Either in range, dps or cost. I think it is a great support to your ally sea as it can move relatively fast, immune to torpedos (major plus point over AA ships), usable on land and able to support amphibious assaults. This can help mitigate the impact torpedo planes have in a 2v2 scenario, where you dont have air superiority.

[grim wraith]

they are a little overcosted for their M to bp but it's not a huge issue. they are faster than other t1 cons

[analog current]

in theory they should be ideal for locations like cove but in practice its not great

ofc it also comes down to other hover units

[grim wraith]

remember straight sea mex pattern is not like most navy maps

[analog current]

players prefer to purchase trans and con and god knows what

[grim wraith]

huge sea only 6 mexes, 2 of which are on tiny cove islands

[analog current]

i'm just saying that even in the theoretically ideal spot to make use of hover cons they dont get used

[grim wraith]

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1308346196099727440

[ivory garden]

comments like these are why I keep reading these threads🤣

[jolly pulsar]

now this is where its at, nowhere is safe

I miss my Salems dearly

[toxic marten]

I didn't read any of this but sea has 0 counter to torp planes. I wouldn't say they need a nerf, I think sea just needs a long range AA ship so at least there's some kind of counter.

[raw spear]

There's basically two camps - one says what you say, and I say sea doesn't need to counter torps because of mostly 2 reasons: its very selfsufficient in its role and strong by itself, and there needs to be a way to contest sea other than sea, to expand interactions. And air is the only other way, goes well with sea anyway. Its hard for me to imagine sea being counterable only by sea on sea terrain

[thorny fjord]

Stop. Saying. Counter, the sea needs a way to STOP the tb from killing it FOR FREE. Not make tb obsolete. Anyway is there an eta on the -100 range nerf?

[golden plover]

waiting on this https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/3922

[pearl glade]

Again and again, sea players should not be able to win a 1v2 against 2 different labs in hands of 2 different players.

If your facing sea with jammer and AA ships + air with torpedo fig YOU SHOULD BE OBLITERATED

[thorny fjord]

again and again sea players should not die to a single unit because it can kill and outrange anything they can produce

Is reading intent so hard? Its not about countering its about not dying for free.

[pearl glade]

Your not dying for free, your dying by t2 airlab investment + attention of 2 players

Your point if view is really skewerd towards wanting to be able to do everything urself in a team game

[thorny fjord]

a t2 lab investment and attention by 2 players is stoppable with correct micro on land, but not on sea

[pearl glade]

Not with players of equal skill and resource investment at the moment it isn't

[thorny fjord]

its about holding out untill your team can help you, the current balance on tb does not allow that

[thorny fjord]

2 players 20 os can now completely nullify a single player 40 os yet they get balanced evenly

[pearl glade]

AA hovers, land LRAA, skater spam, flak ships behind rocks/shore

Ideally sea should get static water LRAA

[thorny fjord]

We have talked about this

And i have countered this and am not gonna type it again, scroll up

[pearl glade]

Instead of nerfing tb range, get a inbuilt hard counter

[analog current]

again and again ground players should not die to a single unit because it can kill and outrange anything they can produce

[thorny fjord]

Other thread

[analog current]

its all related

if ground needs another players help to stay alive its fine if sea needs it

[thorny fjord]

There is the current navy and how tb are super oppressive vs it, there is how current navy is super oppressive vs land and how it should be changed. An there is a thread about how the flagship interacts with land as a super opressive unit

This is the first point and you are eithe speaking about the second and third

[analog current]

your first point is invalidated by this

[toxic marten]

talking to people that don't understand the game is useless @thorny fjord

[thorny fjord]

I understand its hard to seperate discussions as alot has effect on eachother. But keeping a unit unbalanced "because other unit is unbalannced" is not the right approach

[toxic marten]

Sea has NO counter to torp planes, there's no argument its just facts

[analog current]

its not just specific units this is how the game is balanced

[raw spear]

And its good that way

[analog current]

what you are pointing out as an issue is clearly not an issue if we stay in this system of balance

[toxic marten]

how is having a unit with no counter a good thing?

[analog current]

its infact fair for sea to lose to air as badly as ground loses to sea

[raw spear]

Also saying like torp just obliterates whole sea player is clownish.

We came full circle multiple times already tbh

[thorny fjord]

Call it what you want, its the truth

[raw spear]

Sea just isnt comparable to land, cant get influenced by land much, thus needs treatment thats NOT analogous to land

[analog current]

I think its more reasonable to ignore supreme sea mains in this conversations beacuse they are not objective

[raw spear]

If air doesnt have upper hand in conjunction with friendly navy player, nothing can. Its only navy until theres no more navy. And this is terrible prognosis

[toxic marten]

I'm not even talking about supreme map, its even worse on other maps like hellas or glacial or any map with multiple sea lanes. Whoever is better air wins the lane and that's it, no counterplay, you just have to party with a good air player to keep your sea alive

[raw spear]

Dont pull OS in debate plz, we all watch and play same game. Its just different ways to envision how roles should interact

[raw spear]

Air has upper hand, but using words like "no counterplay" and "just have to.." is not real. Theres million ways to influence, delay etc. and u never alone in teamgame

[toxic marten]

Sea just needs a long range AA boat and problem solved

Other then that 0 counterplay and its not a debate

[raw spear]

This way sea is just gigaselfsustained

And the only real influence is opponent sea. Talk about 2 players defining half of the mao

[analog current]

playing ground lanes on glacial is already an exercise in futility, if you nerf airs ability to save you it throws of whatever sembalnce of balance there was

[toxic marten]

i think your to focused on the outcomes of straights is specific when I'm talking about the balance of all the sea maps

[analog current]

you CANT nerf one interaction and leave the other for another time

this only works with a double change or you completely ruin balance

[toxic marten]

nothings getting ruined the sea players get to actually play their lanes that's all

[analog current]

yeah well mixed terrain maps already barely get played and if its even more of a naval free win they will get played less

what got accomplished here?

[toxic marten]

you guys thinking that the air player should decide who wins the sea lanes every game with no counterplay and you guys think that's good for the game is insane

[analog current]

hope you dont mean me beacase i didnt say anything close to that

[raw spear]

Combo of air and sea yes. Not only sea

[analog current]

I would like to reduce the asymmetry of lab balance so its less of an air>navy>ground interaction and gives everyone more skill expression

if you make it air=navy>ground the situation looks less fair than before

to me as a ground main

[toxic marten]

If I'm the sea player and I'm getting 2v1'ed by sea and air, I should be able to have a counterplay to Air instead of just dying with no counterplay, your saying the opposite, this why I told klaboem why even bother you guys have no idea.

[analog current]

ur right this is pointless to continue

[toxic marten]

@royal pendant these guys are amusing

[analog current]

ur reading comprehension is amusing

[remote idol]

right now the seaplayer might aswell go air aswell together with eco because tripple air beats most things compared to making t3 and navy

[raw spear]

That's the thing, if you fighting tooth and nail with opponent navy, you should die when another player joins the fight. Unless you want air to be there for people who dont know where to place. Im being salty a bitbut its hard to comprehend this discrepancy between OS and common sense

Who even gives a shit about air if it cant kill sea in 2v1 with another navy

[remote idol]

the thing is weve all been in situations where we held front against 3 people alone for long enough for eco to come and help, or countered enemy t2 rush despite not having t2 lab up yet, on land you can do these things

[analog current]

and where is your air player in this hypthetical scenario?

[remote idol]

if airplayer sends shuris enemy fighters come in, most likely, and it doesnt matter im making the point that its possile to hold but not win against multiple people alone on land

[analog current]

not really always

holding ground vs 3 ground is only possible with chokes and them being giga timmies

[remote idol]

all you need is one feed and immediate reclaim

[toxic marten]

IF Sea had a long range AA boat it doesn't mean that it instantly wins vs 2v1 sea and air, it just means it has a chance to counter. Your already losing the sea matchup if your investing in AA ships like that anyways instead of battleships so in theory yes you would still lose 2v1. I'm just saying there should be a counter, but I guess having a counter in a grand RTS game is to crazy for you guys to comprehend

[remote idol]

if by long range AA you mean screamer and mercury then im allso not in favor of that, first of all thats an expensive investement as a counter and secondly its gonna make Air unplayable ifor 1 air player if a sea is lost on some maps

sea could get its own unique AA tower that outranges torp bombers but doesnt have as much range as on land

[toxic marten]

doesn't have to be a mercury Ship, could be a t1 Heavy AA ship that can barely reach a torp fighter, something to balance the interaction that's all, doesnt have to do that much damage either.

[thorny fjord]

I think nerfing the tb is the right way, there is definatly work to be done on the sea vs land balance bus seeing how they are now is just unhealthy

[toxic marten]

AA tower works or even having the ability to make AA hovers from sea lab would work, there's a lot of way to fix this

[golden plover]

The problem that people always raise with more/different/new static naval AA, is when its placed up against the shore its rather quite annoying to deal with as torp bombrs have to fly over it, then turn around, and then can hit it OR you use bombers, which end up missing due to cliffs, etc...

It takes 2 torp-bombers to 1shot a Chainsaw (if tweaked into the sea) and it can just about trade with a torp bomber currently, with perfect turn-away micro the torp bomber survives on 1 hit.

Mercury/screamer's a whole other ballgame.

Ultimately these are all static, and come with the same probelms as static on AA on land - and in sea you generally aren't having trouble with torpbomers hitting yoru base, its with them plipping your fleet for awful trade ratios.

So if you had AA which was longer than Chainsaw (1150) and shorter than Mercury (2500) you'd end up with something likely equally obnoxious as having those on the coast, and still have the torp bombers trading wit your fleet if its not hugging your AA

All this has been discussed at length above, i've made tweaks available for both Naval Chainsaw / Erad, and Mercury / Screamer if people fancy testing it out themselves - from my pov, it made the overall game less fun and more grim for the land/sea interaction

[analog current]

I suspect alot of these issues naval players face originates in their lack of ability to solidify positions with anti ship static

[golden plover]

The TB's balanced around its "on paper" range of 650, its effective range is somewhere around 1400-and-1300 depending on torp bomber vector, and target vector; the question is how to reduce its effective range so its not awful to play, has a meaningful interaction with both existing naval AA and its current role. Reducing its effective range by ~200 is a great start to do this, and until we actually play with that change, a lot of this conversation is circular

[analog current]

You cant transition into non ship units like fighters because you instantly lose to more ships

A ground player can make some pulsars and spam any kind of aa he wants while being resonably safe

[golden plover]

Sure, if you give Air a land attack unit which has 1300 range+

The issue is not directly the land/sea disparity in AA, its the effective range of a high dps unit

[royal pendant]

yeah it’s rough lmfao

I have stopped playing for now

already tried to explain the issue in here but 10 os lobsters won’t listen so whatever

[raw spear]

Hopefuly not bcz torps

[royal pendant]

maybe balance team will change it some time

[raw spear]

U probably found a new sidechick game 😄

[royal pendant]

im playing ashes of creation but its only up on weekends atm so weekdays can be a bit boring 😃

Not as boring as dying to torps tho

[raw spear]

I sidechicked into songs of conquest, brilliant game

[upbeat breach]

One trick ponies crying when their op shit has any counter whatsoever, love to see it

Mind explaining how tf are people supposed to interact with sea if there are no torp bombers? in half of lobster games one of seas crumbles in < 10 min because you get one of top 2 players matched vs bottom 2 players and they get dunked instantly. Except, there is nothing a team can do now, except for torp bombers

[thorny fjord]

Another guy spinning his own story instead of bothering to read what has actually been said....amazing

[upbeat breach]

The common point of this, "flagship in a weird spot" and "hovercraft needs buff" is that there is not enough alternatives to counter sea

or not even counter, just engage

[thorny fjord]

Also this has been talked about

[golden plover]

because you get one of top 2 players matched vs bottom 2 players and they get dunked instantly
Can we quit with this strawmanning?

People are involved here because we care, and want to improve BAR - if you don't agree this is the way to improve BAR, the best way to help is to make this idea as GOOD as it can be, then once its great; we can all decide if its better or worse than current

[royal pendant]

yuck turn based 😛

[golden plover]

there's a tweak above you can play-test while we wait for the merge, if you haven't played with the tweak then we're not really progressing this thread, we just going in circles

[upbeat breach]

but how is this strawmanning? if your lane nearby gets dunked, you can easily assist it on land maps, but you cant do anything if your nearby sea is getting blasted, you cant even porc against it
glitters doesnt crumble because players directly opposed to each other get skill gaped, straights usually does

its the fundamental design problem

[golden plover]

Because that's sounds more of a problem with
1: Positional OS disparities / lobby OS range
2: The map
3: land/sea overall

Not specific to the interaction of torpbombers & naval units, sure if you have space to eco and can print infinite flak or infinite torpbombers you'll be fine either way but games where they were close one of the units in question turned it for a worryingly low cost of metal, or a player was dunked on for similar reason is far more helpful

[golden plover]

Yes, but a problem with what? if we take every discussion about unit balance out to the "step back for wider context" we will never get to any meaningful result, at some point you have to use good faith understanding of stuff that was "relatively equal until X happened and Y couldn't be used to respond because the interaction between X & Y is so one sided there was no effective agency for the player"

As a few others and myself have pointed out, if we gave surface bombers 1300+ effective range; then we'd be having this conversation about air/land i'm sure

I can't even tell what side most people here are arguing for or against at this point its going in circles so much. So i'm gonna step out until the current plan is merged

[upbeat breach]

the way i see it, you can list what units can attack sea:
zero t1 unit can
t2 you have ducks and plaps and bombs, only ducks can actually engage sea, you can sometimes cheese with bombs. You can sort of do damage with snipers and messangers, but this assumes gross incompetence from sea players
t3 you have both mega mechs and sort-of hovers

and then you have air, which can attack sea at both tiers

so now, by nerfing torp bombers you simply boost sea even more
sure, the range on torp bombers is bonkers, so is their auto aim and ability to just fire at random and have torps aimbot into targets, but with this nerfed/removed, what alternative there is

and its not like you can switch into sea later, as sea lab needs to be made in sea itself, obviously

[grim wraith]

rolling bombs defensively are actually close to cost effective

not in every situation, but from geo rolling bomb very good

you can make a sealab and spam subs

[upbeat breach]

yeah, but this forces you into t2 bots route, which might be mediocre at holding the mid

[grim wraith]

you are the techer
this is t2 bots on either lab
arm t2 veh is an insane lab, it has plats which are good if your sea is winning if you need to seal away air

by adding 10-15 plats

this is, in the t1 or early t2 phase

Imo ducks and hovers are underpowered/overcosted

the problem with BAR is some of the most cost effective options are the ones with 300 speed that can have minimal reinforce time after being made and can any location

tick, abductor, torp bomber (vs sea)

a non-global option of same tier should be stronger than a global option

330/9500 vs 410/8200, but the duck is almost as expensive as a whole torp lol

Saying sea after 12-15 minutes should just devolve into the better air player is like saying "oh just get a better navy player" to land players

i agree t1 navy is op against t1 land

needs to be adjusted

[upbeat breach]

sure, i agree with this

my point is, there should be more non-air options to engage sea, so it doesn't naturally evolve into better air player tier. Maybe more units that could actually attack sea properly, like give torp launcher to turtles for example

[grim wraith]

remember that a navy player has ZERO influence on the game outside 700 range of the water

meanwhile the land player can kill their lane opponent and then run into sea player's base (and everyone else)

the disadvantage of navy is that winning is not the end, and the range of influence is not the whole map

[upbeat breach]

this, imho, is in a way a problem of amphib lab being a thing, maybe removing it completely would actually improve whole experience - just move all units there to tiered sea labs

[grim wraith]

whys' that?

to make land/navy interact with each other easier?

[upbeat breach]

yeah

the root problem is that, at t1, you have that 700 range limit, but then at t2 you pull rocket ships / flags and shell land, pretty much, with impunity

there is just no proper interaction between sea and land for most of game

[grim wraith]

I think it's okay to require a tech / bp cost to switch

[grim wraith]

okay here are the counter philosphy to rocket ships / flags

if they are greedy with t2 transition, you send plats to delay the ships, while your team builds afus awy from water, or wins on land, scouting them is important

you can also make snipers, hide them under jammer, juno the enemy fleet, to delay them

anyways rocket ships are 2k metal each and they take a minute to walk

and they take apm to use. Basically they are keeping a fleet to defend the ships + 2 rocket ships is like 8k+ army

if the position is unholdable you should have scouted earlier, reclaim your stuff

sure you lose some, but if you are scaling 6k metal while the opponent has 10k worth of metal of ships just to escort rocket ships you are not so bad

it's a bit annoying but whenever you build fusion/afus near the shore you have to accept the loss if your sea loses within 15 minutes

[upbeat breach]

rocket ships cover large chunk of usable space on straights, including 5.5 player worth of metal spots

i never found 2k metal to be particularly costly on them, its what, two destroyers worth of cost? its nothing on sea

and no land unit can actually hit them, you need to pull a surprise attack

[grim wraith]

they take a long time, flagship/missile ship communism is pretty strong tho. op prolly

but then again everything commie is op

[upbeat breach]

yes, thats the point, you also get reclaim when you win the sea

maybe decreasing % of metal left on sea wrecks could balance it somehow

[grim wraith]

you should influence the sea when it's still being fought

[upbeat breach]

which you can do, pretty much, only with torp bombers, only very nearby player can pull bombs or ducks

and well, liche, but its the other can of worms

[grim wraith]

if a land player full kills their lane, they literally can walk their army into the base of the next guy

and their eco/teammates can stream in through the gaps

flagship is kinda no fun hard to interact with, it would be better if it's a unit we don't see every single game

flagship could be 14 starlights winning mid

a "counter" to flagship is reclaim the excess stuff (don't tell me you don't have warning)
and then build 2 afus

2 afus keeps multiplying in value, epoch eventually runs out of good targets and takes a lot of apm

[upbeat breach]

14 starlights need massive eco to upkeep, flagships needs none, im not even convinced on the apm, you can just repeat order it to move back and forth and target fire usual metal spots

its not like you can reclaim your eco and move it, it takes obscene amount of build power to do it

flagship also pays for itself by denying metal spots on opposite side, its plain 14/s metal loss for each spot, 42 metal per player base roughly, more than few afuses produce

[grim wraith]

then don't build your AFUS in shore range.and adv converters. those are the most greedy buildings ever

[upbeat breach]

its usually not afuses that get shelled, just metal extractors and wind power

[grim wraith]

the flagship is a "win con", that instead of winning the game directly it says "screw you" to everyone near the shore

wow I pay 17k metal to manually kill 1k metal extractors 10 sec at a time

whether the flag is OP or not is another story. plp make crappy flags (not enough targets to shoot) often but that's a fake argument

but I suspect people are not playing around the flag enough

currently if you want to "counter" flagship you can spam 10k of subs in the sea

esp if it's a surprise

t2 torp also work ofc

[thorny fjord]

ive seen ducks do it

[grim wraith]

yeah but ducks are so overcosted. and dps suck for surprise attacks
ducks/plats actually are countered by rolling bombs

rolling bomb main reason it's good is uniquely has underwater hitting aoe, and naval sonar / depth charge weapons are pretty bad

[thorny fjord]

huh never seen ducks vs rolling bombs

but yea makes sense, low rpm vs bombs

[grim wraith]

ofc if it's an even battle it should get swung a lot by 2nd player

but you can be ahead multiple battleships (10k metal ahead) and 5 torps + 1 scout supported by 3-4 flak ships + fewer battleships will beat your army

it's not like you are skipping flakships either so your lead isn't coming from there

if your team doesn't have air control or enemy air sneaks in volley, the torps can attack anywhere, not just your army

they can kill t2 mexes, t2 con, reinforcing ships, raiding ships/subs, etc.

they can even kill your t2 shipyard

[elfin knot]

still so much discussions lol, anyone ACTUALLY working on a simple nerf like so many ppl talked about (like -100 range) or is it gonna be just a polarising rant thread?

[thorny fjord]

here

[raw spear]

Agree thats an issue, but is inherent to navy cost. With smaller army you dont really contest much. Imagine flagship but no torps to sink it

I mean, ALL these late threads are interlinked. Torp needs to be good to dent navy, but sinks too much metal, but navy just IS too much metal in all aspects, but hovers could be a way to interact more, but they too garbo or too good

[pure flame]

@elfin knot there is a tweak pending, I just want to let you know

[grim wraith]

yeah maybe if they retooled the turtle into a floating heavy hover

or its so heavy it can't hover so it's a "boat" like the trident

t2 vehicle lab can make consuls which can make destroyers tho

[grim wraith]

partly supreme straight is not a great hover map, but yeah you can nerf t1 ship buff medium hover so medium hover can be used to stall at least

if hover lab is better that makes it more justifiable to go hoverlab which can influence seas via harrassment

The reason why I'm okay with sub spam and duck spam in general is they can end badly

If your team tries to make 10k in ducks meanwhile opponent was secretly gearing up for a team push you could well die even though you win the sea at the similiar time

[pearl glade]

https://www.beyondallreason.info/unit/corscreamer

even https://www.beyondallreason.info/unit/armmercury

Only issue with these is maps like isthimus where sea is too far from any landmass to make those

so either change strait or give us water LRAA

[golden plover]

What if an important part of sea is larger than 2500 elmo's from land?

[pearl glade]

.

Map desig issue. Push along coast

Also i cannot recall another map where you cannot screamer creep, even isthimus you can fight near coast at all time and get to cove, nd eventually short beach

tropical assault maybe? i guess

[remote idol]

agressive LRAA placement on land can be easily punished in water it cannot

[grim wraith]

honestly spread out your torp bombers then torp the naval mercury lmao

its only going to kill 2 torps max still a positive trade

air players: lol you just need to spread your ships vs nuke bombers
also air players: fighters splash destroying my torp bombers

[remote idol]

so its not countering the thing we want it to counter but it adds a new level of stomping when youre allready ahead

[grim wraith]

not exactly, it just is another strength of the topr bomber as it can snipe structures with high alpha

and all teh random t2 tech buildings are expensive buildings that are snipeable

i've never seen it but technically you can fly 2 abductor in front of a nuke bomber to emp the lraa

either the mercury shoots the abductors or you stun it and then the nuke bomber can go through

[remote idol]

i think transports have high targeting priority for AA right?

[grim wraith]

this all assume manual hold fire
mercury should be used with hold fire anyways

else you could just bait with t1 scout

[remote idol]

thats theoreticly allso very abusable if you make light trans and just let them eat AA

since theyre as much a priority as a bomber

in the eyes of AA

[late temple]

Could we buff hover aa into more of t1.5 AA?

[south pasture]

it already is that though.
its the best t1 mobile aa by stats

[late temple]

Or just buff it in general, so it's more of a viable escort for sea and w/e?

Eh

To be fair, the other t1 mobile aa isn't really impressive

55 dps for bot aa. 85 dps for hover aa.

[south pasture]

compared to t2 mobile aa hover aa is not horrific

[late temple]

And hover aa is like double the cost

[misty bone]

Saw someone do this a couple weeks ago like an absolute chad except it was stilettos not abductors iirc

[late temple]

That's a whole 'nother issue. xD

To be fair fair, hover aa is a lot faster, which is nice.

Torpedo Bomber like 2k HP :x

Maybe solution is to nerf Torpedo Bomber hp so it's more susceptible to fighters and light aa escorts

[grim wraith]

the reason why torp bomber has 2k hp is bc the t2 fig does 500 dmg a shot
i surmise

[pallid mortar]

air has a huge problem of being ridiculously bursty

both in air vs air and air vs land/sea

[late temple]

That's fine, Fighters need to do their job of killing air threats before they can drop their game-winning payload.

[toxic marten]

I think there's a few fixes.

1. Hover AA can made from t1 sea lab
2. Some kind of long range AA boat that can at least reach a torp bomber, doesn't have to 1 shot out of sky or anything but at least it has the range.
3. Static long range Sea AA
4. torp bomber range nerf

any one of these would be nice. For the people saying torp planes would be useless with any of these changes is wrong, you would probably still lose sea 2v1 because boats are metal intensive, if your making to much AA then your not making ships that matter so the opponent still wins. This just gives a chance to damage the torp bombers instead of no counter.

[elfin knot]

to be completely honest in this thread not a single player who says that torp bombers are op is an air player to start with. I personally dont see a problem with them coz i do use them myself AND am perfectly capable defending vs them when I am sea (im not a dog sea either). But I am also perfectly fine with nerfing the range by 100 so they take at least 1 guaranteed shot from sea flack. I think arm sea is way way better at dealing with them than core due to the skater being so op (and i happen to be arm sea enjoyer).

regarding the other fixes: 1) hover aa from t1 sea lab wouldnt solve the problem as its expensive and if you can make it in sufficient numbers without dying to ur sea opponent then you can afford other options as well. It would also make it pretty cancerous to play against, having a unit from sea lab that can go on land. 2) + 3) any long range AA would cause more problems than they solve as when the sea is won it would deny the airspace way too much into the land, not to mention it would be expensive and could be sniped by spreading torp bombers like chrono said.

So in the end im happy to give torps a small nerf of -100 to start with (and see from there), without changing anything else in the sea lab (that would cause too many problems imo)

[elfin knot]

Do you know if this going to be available as a selectable option in lobby (like for example candidate unit pack), or is it going to be kept as a unit tweak only (would be much harder to test)?

[faint moon]

Does hover AA counter torpedo planes?

[thorny fjord]

They arent capable of protecting your ships, but they cant be shot by tb

[toxic marten]

I was looking at it from a perspective on maps like glacial pass or more open sea maps where a fast top bomber can completely negate sea to expand and lock down multiple sea players. Sure hover aa is expensive but if you can make them without a hoverlab at least 1 player can produce the counter while other sea players push.

and if people don't think torps are op you haven't played enough open sea maps, even on the highest level just rush a torp bomber and gg. Seen it and played through it way to many times including while watching the omega series finals.

[grim wraith]

If you are hard winning the sea or the enemy fleet is not stationed nearby they can zone torps

if the enemy fleet is nearby the ships can shoot the hover aa forcing them back

hover aa is fast, but expensive, and the dps is pretty bad (i greatly prefer platypus until late game where platypus ground attack is inconsequential)

[grim wraith]

how many months did it take for any sea player to admit that t1 navy is OP

the argument is usually "navy has other weaknesses", " the other sea player should be keeping them at bay"

because that OPness is a major way of affecting/carrying the game, plp don't want to lose that

I mean air simply is going to be stronger the bigger the map is (and torps the more water there is), if air to navy is cost effective against naval aa / navy, then on large water maps they will be even stronger than on straights. Serene Caldera is never played but it would be nice if that map still had a balance between navy and air. atm definitely that map is just spam torps and figs (with some aa ships and static AA towers)

I don't think hover aa should be buildable in t1 shipyard, t1 shipyard is very cheap

hover aa should be buffed but remain in hover lab

[grim wraith]

yeah for air units like the torp
-can't nerf the speed cause then it's complete sitting duck vs t2 figs
-can't nerf the hp cause then it's complete paper vs t2 figs (tbh i don't mind air having units that are not complete paper vs land guns)

so then you end up looking to nerf the weapons

[elfin knot]

ye but if you gonna be spamming hover aa then might as well make a hover lab, not that big of a difference and it doesnt fkc up the game balance

[elfin knot]

ppl just dont play open sea maps enough to figure out how to deal with it and core sea is predominant and more susceptible to the torps

[grim wraith]

is it purely having skaters?

t2 if you are winning super hard you can cheese and make 40 plats + jammers and only a few ships

u have to be winning super hard tho

[raw spear]

Skaters on spam is great for multiple things, even benefits your air when sniping torps

[grim wraith]

they are most oppressive vs t1 air

kill figs 2 shot lol and stealthy + fast

[raw spear]

Ye crazy good but t2 skater spam is also ok in certain stages. I see someone do that vs torps, went great. But both air were involved

Skaters helped with vision, chip dmg, also some went throigh

[grim wraith]

they are good for wasting torp time

i think making 30 skaters is overrated tho

[raw spear]

Prolly ye

[grim wraith]

i mean it gives you map hacks and takes a while to kill with torps, but that's 4.5k metal that's aa that only covers your seas

j2 told me about the forbidden strat, make torps and then reclaim them after the enemy makes a bunch of aa ships lol

[raw spear]

lol

sounds cool but hard to pull off. i dont think i could restrain myself not using torps, they're great units to see in action, to use..

[grim wraith]

i mean you use them until you see a ton of aa ships

then you are like ok ill let them have it

[raw spear]

ah ye, of course. megatired lol

for sure, i think air play doesnt learn much reclaiming own units, this is something air should adopt more in fringe cases. never seen torps reclaimed but often bots

[misty bone]

Alot of air units are so e heavy/still useful that there is not often much reason to reclaim imo.

My favorite unit to build/fire/reclaim is lrpcs. Build one, make them invest in 10k+ in shields then eat and go more units.

[grim wraith]

ye super e/bp heavy units not worth to reclaim

[elfin knot]

this is because of the bp cost for the torps and bombers, theres not much value in reclaiming as you tend to have enough nanos to use up all ur metal, so using the bp to reclaim give you metal that you cant spend without more nanos and you lose time making figs in the process

[burnt matrix]

idk how this is still escalating from torpedo bombers to t1 navy being op what's next when is it going to end?

just fix torp attack range and call it an end

[elfin knot]

arm has skater in t1 that is cheap, fast and stealthy, they do enough damage to kill the scouts and that makes torps much harder to use, plus you would be moving them with dolphins in a big wave towards the torps so microing torps becomes much harder too for not much of a result. But as I said thats only for when you push the sea while ahead, arm naval con with platys is also op option, just going t2 lab to get a few naval cons out is worth it imo if you got enough bp, coz then u can spam dolphin/destroyer/platys and win if need be after reclaiming the lab. But also the lightning ship (whatever its called) has very decent aa damage and good anti ship damage also

[toxic marten]

I was just thinking a of a t1 counter, but I guess you think hover AA from ship lab would break game balance? I'm not sure in what other scenario your making hover AA unless it was to zone out torps. Most suggestions here come from a phase in the game thats post t2. Its not so easy to just transition to t2 SEA in maps that are very open with multiple sea lanes. In my experience torps are most op when seas are locked into a t1 sea battle for to long and making a hover lab just to make hover AA gets your further behind rather then being able to just produce them without lab swapping. The longer the game gets of course there's way to counter but I'm not talking about any of that.

[raw spear]

Whats the other air doing? If he bombing, is it still op? Air doesnt make torps in vacuum

[grim wraith]

torps are more oppressive against t2 imo

and if air is getting t2 fast, on most maps that is either because both air greeded or they opening themselves to t1 bombing + team

i don't think t1 needs a working counter vs t2 torps

[grim wraith]

this dynamic is common in a lot of lanes

if both sides don't greed (ie. air goes t1 bombing run, geo goes tzar rush) then they will be weaker than the lanes who mutually greeded

[toxic marten]

I think your implying counters that come from straights, Torps are a little easier to counter there since you can put screamers in key locations and just porc and scale. You have so many land mexes to make t2 sea easier to obtain and more metal income to make AA hovers or platys or w.e while spamming ships, my suggestions don't come from straights.

[elfin knot]

I get ur point, but as I said if you can afford to invest into enough hover aa to deter torp bombers while not dying to sea, you definitely can afford to go t2 lab > make naval engis > reclaim lab > make platys/destroyer/dolphin etc.

I understand for core its a little different, but again you are meant to die 2v1 on open sea to begin with. It is a team game afterall 😉 in that regard even nerfing torp range by 200 wouldnt save you as the damage is too big and u dont have the eco to 2v1 at that point

coz if i understand u talking about the maps where you dont jhave land mexes, which means without t2 lab u not gonna have t2 mexes at all, hence affording hover aa is even worse than on isthmus

[grim wraith]

there are some poverty sea maps

[misty bone]

I still feel like this whole 2v1 talk is a bit hyperbolic. I get there's literally two players there but air is likely not all in on only torps, they're probably also building figs/shuri/bomber. And often they go torps to save a sea which is behind so the total eco invested in the fight is likely much closer than 2v1 implies.

[grim wraith]

i think the most problematic thing is even a fully decked out t2 navy can't directly fight t2 torps

no matter if you are winning significantly

being low on resource forced into t1 and then getting bullied by the enemy techer is not thaat bad

[misty bone]

A potential late game solution could be t3 AA hover with ~chainsaw for naval gantry. It's missing some land t3 units so there's potentially space there for it.

[grim wraith]

remember the t3 aa hover can travel on land too

[toxic marten]

once it goes super late game torps don't do anything, just go t3 hovers and flags and your unkillable but it has to be cortex hovers idk about arm

[misty bone]

That's true, would probably be best as a naval gantry exclusive unit so you have to give up a bunch of t3 options (karg/razer/Beh etc) if you want to build it instead of land gantry solely for AA.

[toxic marten]

I know you say 2v1 your supposed to lose but I'm not talking about that either, a good air with torp bombers can hold back an entire team of sea players, its more like air is 1v3 and air still winning. I don't think its a stretch to say making hover AA is really all that expensive when the torps come out post 10 min. You can easily still be t1 sea on most maps at that time and AA hovers would be perfect in that time window where there's no counter. Just my 2 cents, the nerf torp range would definitely have good effects on a map like straights though where everyone getting t2 pretty fast.

[misty bone]

I was thinking less about super late game, more about early late game first flag/t3 timing.

[grim wraith]

super late game they can make so much hover aa that it's not so worth microing the torps

and flag can fire from safety
sort of

[toxic marten]

I know hornet has flag in t3, which i think is a major buff to transitioning into late game sea as you can negate torp bombers even faster but that's more of a straights meta thing and cortex specific

[misty bone]

But I have yet to play in a lobby with the torp range fix/tweak so maybe that's enough tbh.

[grim wraith]

if your flag dies to torp whats the point of having t3 hover tho

[toxic marten]

couple t3 hover before flag assuming your playing with hornets rework

[grim wraith]

expensiiive

[golden plover]

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1297885488077606932 seperate tweak to try flag in t3 gantry and discussion here

[toxic marten]

oh I was talking about if you won sea already the transition is sweet. People making torps trying to fight you back into sea is much easier to counter with that rework on, but if your locked vs a sea good player no way you can go gantry like that. Hornets rework does very well for sea when you get into super late game, Torps are basically useless at that point.

[elfin knot]

making figs is an investment too, its the biggest cost of the torp bombers - the fighter screen, you cant quantify it coz its game dependant but if you dont have air dominance then ur torps will just die for free pretty much. Hence you cant say air is investing very little as when you send ur torps to the sea and enemy air responds you gotta sack ur figs to protect them which could have been used for a bombing run or just general fig wall that would allow you to scale.

[elfin knot]

yea but my point is even if you remove the torp bomber completely, in ur scenario it seems the air has complete dominance, in which case it doesnt matter what units it goes for, the seas are just dead. Mass shuriken, abductor, stiletto, liche, even t2 bombers for both factions will kill a sea player engaged in a sea battle without opposition air player

[elfin knot]

t3 hovers do super well vs all ships except battleships and flags (and droneships) so having t3 hover as ur front is pretty decent in contested sea to protect ur flag from ducks/subs and mass t1, while having flag do the long range damage with couple battleships for protection. I still thing platys do better vs torps than t3 hovers (core)

[toxic marten]

well if there's complete air dominance yea its tough because air can do so much, but if you mix in enough t1 AA Ships and spread while spamming those sea nettles at least you know your doing damage to the air players units, the torps are never going to die.

[formal condor]

The lunkhead is a completely different thing from the cataphract

[elfin knot]

yes but arm got platypus for aa and lunkheads are better vs mass t1 than cataphracts

[elfin knot]

t1 aa ships do nothing vs t2 bombers though, and all the emp options still kill u without air support. In equal eco n+1 > n pretty much always, if air went into full water the result would probably be the same (assuming equal micro skill)

[grim wraith]

there was the game where i threw away my torps but they already fired a few times so it wasn't the end of the world

honestly torps should be used together with t2 aa ships if you purely want torps with minimal invest. if you started behind in fig count, matching fig count is expensive.

[grim wraith]

those units still have to take proportional dmg from the number of aa ships tho

when you have 3+ herrings shruiken are pretty bad

t2 bombers can be split against and are most impactful on the first volley. also t2 bombers are much more expensive resource and bp wise than torps

there's a difference between 5 torps 1 scout, and "enemy air is a dead/bot" full sea pump

[grim wraith]

everything in BAR basically boils down to efficiency. if tick costed twice at much it would suck

[late temple]

Unlike land bombers that have to get pretty close to target and need a little extra hp, torp bombers are sniping from out of range. Hypothetically they don't need the hp as much. With less hp, it would be easier to zone them away from your main fleet with a screen of skaters or w/e (instead of the skaters tickling them before they kill your main fleet).

[pure flame]

I dont like the idea of downgrading to T1 as a solution. But also it makes it worse vs Figs

[late temple]

also worse vs figs isn't an issue because you should hypothetically have air superiority before you go torpedo bombing

[raw spear]

Could be a good idea. They need to do good dmg vs HP heavy ships but Easier to snipe is good

[late temple]

downgrading to t1 is a main solution against many land units, i.e., tickspam lol

[pure flame]

Does that mean its fine to downgrade labs in other areas? Spam and rezbots are more of an integral part of the game, along with T1 AA. Shouldnt we leave that exception to just the T1 bot lab? Does the skater strat work for Herrings aswell?

[late temple]

for air, its t1 air cons and t1 scouts. irl, very much yes you have a bunch of smol cheap ships screening for your expensive ships.

no other branch of units really gets away with monolab very well