#Nerf torpedo planes

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

grim wraith
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well not just improving mobile aa, part of the problem is t2 figs just evaporate t2 air a2g

late temple
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Make the single-target missiles on t2 aa ships longer range? So not really enough to stop a dedicated torpedo bombing run, but enough to stop 1 torp bomber from solo'ing your entire navy?

grim wraith
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with t1 air vs t1 air you definitely can pull back your units to friendly

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cause the time to kill is more in the t1 and t1.5 phase than t2 air phase

formal condor
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how about naval chainsaw

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torps can still fight navy defensively

grim wraith
formal condor
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but when navy is defending chainsaw will help

grim wraith
late temple
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Idk, for the price of a t2 flak ship, you can basically get a t1 air lab + a fighter. Answer may just be make t1 fighters. Have a flak ship to zone their fighter swarm.

grim wraith
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+180 range, minus 25% dps on the rockets (that's less than 2 nettles dps on a 1k metal unit), and -50 range and -13,4% burst on angler

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in a way it's to make them better vs torps while not making them stronger vs gunships, which they are already fine against

formal condor
ivory garden
golden plover
pure flame
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Imma summarize my opinions here-
-Set Mygravity -) 0.1 ; Range 425/420 for Arm/Cor -TB (range nerf solution)

-Then add a null-weapon with Range= ~1000 (to showcase effective range)

-Fix set target interaction with radar (bug)

golden plover
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that sounds pretty close to my stuff, hopefully i'll have the will today of setting up some reproducible test layouts

pure flame
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reproducible test layouts?

golden plover
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setups that remove random variables so i can do range testing and get a really accurate view. e.g. parking ships against a short and dropping from the same incoming waypoint immediately after coming out of a lab, so all the planes follow the exact same path

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then marking where each torp first hits the water, is hopefully one way

pure flame
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hm so a before and after, for empirical understanding of the extent of the change? It seems you like to do that kinda stuff 🙃

elfin knot
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idk how u do ur conversions but with t1 converters thats 533 metal per torp bomber and 1200 metal per t2 aa ship, so 2.12k vs 1.2 k (which seams rather reasonable). i.e. starlight will 1 shot a sharpshooter with greater range (1425 metal vs 1015)

grim wraith
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aa ships also have to be made blindly and in advance

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it's like saying it's a fair trade because gunships trade evenly against aa bots

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3900/1500 = 3 torps to kill, not 4 if they hit

elfin knot
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u kinda also forget in every single map with water, the air sits at 4-6 mex while sea gets at least double if not 3x. And t2 flack ship swats fighters like flies too, so its not only role to kill torp bomber by any means

grim wraith
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just go around the flak ships

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flakship don't defend their allies, or the land push, or anyone's base

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they are serviceable but lol if you think they are strong

grim wraith
elfin knot
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from what im seeing and what we tested recently the -200 range nerf would be way too much by itself. I personally never really have a serious problem with torps when im playing sea so im pretty sure it is skill difference. The only time its too hard to solve by urself is when you got to fight 3 ppl in your sea already (like ships, ducks/platys and torps) - thats too much to counter by urself but thats when your team is meant to come in. I dont think you should easily be able to counter a second enemy player fighting against you

grim wraith
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200 range IS too much

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cause it puts the torp within range of the full flak weapons

elfin knot
grim wraith
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not to mention it makes torps useless in hands of plp with worse micro

elfin knot
grim wraith
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ya prolly

golden plover
grim wraith
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i mean vs good micro torps rn they should not take much dmg from aa ships. they prolly can't kill you but you'll never win sea and there's nothing u can do about it.

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you can't put aa ship forward cause battleship kills it, or torps can

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and 1500 burst per plane on a t2 ship is just insane

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1 inch out of position? boom support ship gone you can't see

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it's like flying starlights

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with a decent sea player at t2 phase, platypus don't repel torps anymore cause battleships shoot platypus

elfin knot
# golden plover -200 effective, or torp in water?

when you say effective i dont really understand what you mean, its very vision dependant, you will only get vision when you rather close to ur target in most cases so testing shit with set target while approaching from 1500 range is not a real case scenario. If your scout plane is too far forward of ur torp bombers you will lose it and will not be able to bomb anything, hence it has to be just ahead, which reduces the range to barely outside of flack range. When we tested the tweaks earlier this week with -200 (yours) and -75 (Chrono's) the -200 was too much. it should be -75-100 maybe -125 maximum on the range of torp bombers without chaning the drop speed or whatever causes the overrange

grim wraith
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i don't mind the current torp bomber vs t1 interaction

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i think they may be too strong vs t2 navy considering prices, with aa ship not prividing sufficient counterplay potential given it's 1k cost

elfin knot
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and when u on offensive mass t1 ships with t1 aa do great

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like supporter/dolphin

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they absorb the shots while skater/herring do the killing

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it ofcourse assumes you are ahead on navy vs ur opponent but if u are not ahead then you are meant to die 2v1 anyway

elfin knot
grim wraith
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chainsaw has 1125 range, arrow storm is what 780 on flak cannon?

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750 vs 1k
625 (note overkill) vs 430

elfin knot
grim wraith
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naval flak was never considered good except for late game on won sea where the sheer aoe may be useful

golden plover
# grim wraith

headers?! that's really hard to understand/read with no context

elfin knot
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hence im not in favour of increasing the t2 aa boat range at all, im happy to reduce the torp bomber range by no more than 100-125. chaning anything with t2 aa ships would wreck havoc with other balance

grim wraith
elfin knot
grim wraith
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yes static naval flak is super situational

elfin knot
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static land flack is also worse

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no to mention you got 2x the hp

grim wraith
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that's just a problem with flak
the difference with arrowstorm is 40% of the dps is in this puny ST missile

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well, it is possible the torp bomber and nuke bomber are just skewing what seems reasonable for AA

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-75-100 range and 1500->1300 dmg (it mainly affects dmg against larger ships)
and yes flagship needs a change it's stale

elfin knot
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that puny missile helps with dmg vs bombers at higher range, but the fact its mobile is massive advantage over stationary flack. The torps do have slightly too much range which makes them not trade with flack but pick it off with perfect micro, I dont see much problem with liche myself but i know ppl tend to blame things on balance when they just cant adapt

grim wraith
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i mean when the whole point of your lane is slow and powerful and you don't win immediately after winning sea, when a versatile unit nukes your army it's pretty lol

elfin knot
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i think damage is fine, it doesnt matter as much as its divided in 3 parts and not all bombs always reach the ship

grim wraith
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okay well we agree to disagree

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if we use your tactic of using underpowered units as talking points

elfin knot
grim wraith
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what happens you think when a dreadnaught's worth of anglers fight a dreadnaught?

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equal converted cost, it dies in 1 shot

elfin knot
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it should

grim wraith
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okay, then all air units should die in one shot to converted cost aa

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not to mention air units are the mobile ones and choose the engage timing

elfin knot
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battleship has big role, its the strongest ship vs surface ships, vs submarines and vs land (bar flagship)

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torps only has 1 use

grim wraith
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killing battleships, and killing surface ships, and killing subs, and killing coms underwater

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it only affects one sector yes.

elfin knot
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its like sharpshooters and starlights, they only good to pick off important units, they suck ass vs mass units and vs cheap units

elfin knot
grim wraith
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imagine flying sharpshooters and starlight (only work vs land or sea, pick 1)

elfin knot
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also you say it like that but torp bomebrs require you to have air superiority as they dont shoot air units and die to them for free so its not as you can compare 3k worth of torp bombers and 3k worht of battlehsip since you probably have another 10k worth of figs to protect ur 3k of torps

grim wraith
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air units have many times the speed, and aren't a liability against enemy ground units

grim wraith
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in a 1v1 scenario for air you can justify it being a skill diff or a sacrifice

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but like I said 2nd player going liche or torps is pretty gross

elfin knot
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well i dont understand the sacrifice bit coz that just doesnt make much sense to me but being 2v1 in a tema game is something you alone might not be able to counter if you dont have big enough advantage in your own lane

grim wraith
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it's a flaw because the only real answer is go air (or maybe spam as you suggested. herrings are dogshit fighting units for cost btw, god knows how ahead u have to be)

grim wraith
elfin knot
elfin knot
grim wraith
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this is considering 2v2 strats

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if enemy 2nd player goes air what viable ally 2nd player options were there

elfin knot
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with mercury/screamer you can defend alone as its rather cheap to make considering the alternatives

grim wraith
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yeah mercury is fine for defense

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although how did you know they were going torps?

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it takes what 30 seconds to build + 30 more to load?

elfin knot
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u dont, you get ambushed and fall back

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i dont assume you will have much aa with ur fleet to begin with, if you got some u will use that to retreat and build mercury behind. Depending on the map you might have island chains or rivers where you can hide from torps too. I think emp stiletto or mass shuriken can be way more devastating than torp bombers

grim wraith
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mm

elfin knot
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torp bombers even with big damage take a long time to kill ur fleet, especially if u got some aa as they will hit and turn, make a circle and hit again, which takes time. Stiletto will fly over you once and u lose half the fleet, same with shuris

grim wraith
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yeah against some clump bombers can be better

elfin knot
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for fraction of the cost of torb bombers.

grim wraith
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just strat bombs are very expensive liabilities so stilleto is better

elfin knot
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Its not against what you have its about what ur enemy has usually. For emp to be effective you need to have enough units to kill the stunned units fast enough. If your sea player doesnt have enough, torp bombers are better, but they take way more time and because of that its way easier to counter them than say stiletto or liche even

ivory garden
ivory garden
ivory garden
golden plover
ivory garden
grim wraith
supple wren
grim wraith
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need to test some t2 torp vs ships micro challenge, with real players on both sides

zealous shale
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As justa mentioned, stilettos used as combined arms is sleeper OP, especially in active engagements where yr frigates/destroyers will clump together to some extent. (No special micro needed too!) Anyway back to torpedo bomber discussion.

hoary kayak
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An air unit should never hard-counter sea AA because the air unit always chooses the engagement. Unless you made torp bombers so slow that a flak ship could catch them, which would be stupid.

pure flame
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Hard-counter implies its better, so ye it shouldnt hard-counter

raw spear
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Air also needs ways to do something when there's AA. Because otherwise its impotent lab. And units that arent fighters always compete with fighter production of enemy air

hoary kayak
ivory garden
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Im not sure I follow. Are you suggesting flak boats are currently hard countered by TB or just that they shouldnt?

raw spear
hoary kayak
raw spear
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Its the only role of the unit, and only viable when no coast near

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The only role cant be negated by basic flak ship. Has to be back and forth which it is

hoary kayak
raw spear
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AA counters whole air lab

hoary kayak
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Good, because the whole air lab is more mobile than the flak ship.

raw spear
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Torp bomber only exposed ships

hoary kayak
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Every ship is an exposed ship.

raw spear
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Ship near coast isnt

hoary kayak
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Ideally, we'd have more anti-air ships in T2 than just flak, then the equation would change.

raw spear
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Torps cant hit it unless they dive into open waters and fire from behind or sides

hoary kayak
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Maybe a fighter carrier, for example.

raw spear
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Nah, you build air lab as sea when you win sea. No limitation

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Thats the whole idea of bar, having all possible units at your disposal

hoary kayak
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land labs don't have to do that. Why should sea?

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Why does sea have to suck?

ivory garden
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Land labs also have to build sea units to fully contest sea(this is fine)

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I also would say. 1. TB do not trade "for free" like some suggest in this thread. 2. Sea is very strong as it is balanced currently

analog current
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I think torpedoes could be alot more fun and interactive if they were not homing but propelled (?) in a straight line after landing in the water

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than you can give them a bunch of range and dmg and you get cooler micro for both sides

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dodging micro and predictive volley micro

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currently the visuals are also poor and hard to track imo

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I think it could be rather exciting to watch if they connect with targets

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slow, powerfull and a very visual surf trail

pallid mortar
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this would be much more interesting

ivory garden
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not the worst idea in this thread to be sure. I could see a world where that sounds kinda cool

misty bone
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the hardest part of that is how can they hit things at varying depths from subs to UW structures/amphib to ships if they can't track

golden plover
misty bone
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I'd almost suggest naval engineers get seaplane figs to build and let torps have their current range in a non bugged way but they're already so damn useful that it would probably be very op

formal condor
raw spear
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This is briliant

ivory garden
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seaplanes are irrelevant when t2 planes come out :///

languid eagle
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Honestly seaplanes from naval engineers might be mildly useful

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Like yes they are worse than t2 air, but you don't need the actual lab investment

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Cooking together a small handful of seaplane bombers or seaplane scouts could be helpful in a niche pinch

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Actually being able to pull seaplane scouts out of your ass would be very nice.

misty bone
languid eagle
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you know what would be really funny

a sea tac missile that only damages air

Probably horrible for gameplay but conceptually hilarious

raw spear
languid eagle
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make seaplanes sonar invisible so they can pop out and ambush torp bombeurs

formal condor
upbeat breach
scarlet salmon
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U can balance torp planes by adding ridges underwater to block torps

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It's only good in extremely open water or you miss 50% of ur shots bcz it keeps dropping it's torps on some random terrain

late temple
grim wraith
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torp planes might change in the future

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but it's possible that it ends up being "add some amount of small islands and other terrain" cause torps op on 100% open water

grim wraith
scarlet salmon
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adding a tiny island in middle solves the entire problem with sea porc verstality

grim wraith
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balancing via maps is kinda last resort imo

scarlet salmon
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issue is that torp bombers kinda suck on most water maps bcz of terrain already

grim wraith
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what about sea porc versatility?

scarlet salmon
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mercury lrpc bubble etc

grim wraith
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mercury is good for a defensive otion but I hate it if it's supposed to be the general answer

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mercury built by 1 os player same as 50 os player (besides boring target fire )

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and nothing opponent air palyer can do to micro vs it

scarlet salmon
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send in 10 scouts

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forces them to use hold fire

grim wraith
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hold fire and manual fire
it's pretty common

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cause mercury are very dumb and don't prioritize bombers even if they are in range

scarlet salmon
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i mean its not common people just keep using micro widgets

grim wraith
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on straights cause bombing on geo is common and there is a lot of area to cover plp realize that mercury is actually strong if you manually fire
very expensive but protects multiple players

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t2 aa ships moving back and forth and trying to dmg the torp bombers as much as possible, while letting other ships tank the shots is good micro interaction imo

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better than "lol just build a mercury"

golden plover
grim wraith
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i'm 90% sure

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i had a game where like 5 shots fired at figs
yes the figs led but the bombers entered range

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anyways its just a check away

raw spear
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Wouldnt faster speed of AA flak ship solve most of the issues?

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Raises skill ceiling, its not dumb 1 button solution, dynamic vs torps still holds true

upbeat breach
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i doubt it would help, from my experience, those torp runs usually happen from safe side for torps

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you cant dive aa ships toward them because it will die to leftover enemy ships

thorny fjord
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The biggest problem with torpedo bombers is you need to tech switch in order to counter them, so if you are fighting another navy player you will die. period. nothing you can do about it because no unit you can produce from any sealab can stop the torpedo bombers. Also the argument figs counter them, they will just have aa over their own land and give the figs no chance to shoot the torp bombers. You not only lose the seafight, but also the air fight.

raw spear
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I think figs do help, even if they trade out torps when they engage. And you Want to go figs at some point anyway as sea yourself, since navy and air can dominate large sea maps

thorny fjord
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figs will only help if you can catch the torpedo bombers, but they launch at such a range that they can stay above friendly aa. its a losing engagement. Also going figs yourself means less metal in ships, which means you lose the sea battle anyway

raw spear
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I mean, where did torps came from? The navy player? If so, you arent losing metal going fighters. If it came from someone else its false comparing your options to their 2 player's. If you go fighters and they get help with torps, you have to get some other form of help, like ducks. If that's what geo provides, you can go fighters and not be behind. Gotta compare 2v2 options not 2v1

thorny fjord
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This is for 2vs2 options, thats what im talking about losing the air battle in 2vs2, if my air player tries to shoot down their torp bombers he loses is figs because he has to fight above their aa.

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and then the navy just becomes irrelevant because its just a fight of who has the most torp bombers or can do the most damage

ivory garden
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In general, this is countered by the air player. As soon as you see TB moving toward your teams navy, you move your figs towards TB. They die. No more TB! I do this all the time. It gets even worse with anything less than perfect micro

thorny fjord
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you will still be chasing them into enemy aa, and the torps are quite tanky. I know you are a good air player so i do doubt how much of that is because of your skill in either having more figs or outmicroing. but i have faced enough navy battles in t1 and t2 to know that the torpbombers can definatly fire from above friendly aa when the navy is fighting.

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you might be able to do a small test having a t2 bship, jammer, anti-nuke and radar on 2 sides. have them barely sit out of fighting range and see if the torpedo bomber needs to leave the flak range to fire at the bship. the combination is to simulate what you can see and at what distance most t2 navy battles happen at.

languid eagle
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I've always thought that the problem isn't that torp bombers are op, but that sea players don't like being at the complete mercy of their air player

thorny fjord
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well yes and no, im opposed to getting thrown into a 2vs1 situation and there being no counterplay, porc really isnt a thing in the sea. on any other map if you are getting pressured 2vs1 a holdout is sometimes possible with smart usage of the right units, or porc. sea just doesnt have that so you are just sitting there losing ships untill someone of your team intervenes. chainsaw and mercury are land buildings so i am leaving them out.

languid eagle
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The closest land version is land vs flagship where flag spam will always overrun shield spam, but flag spam is very late game stuff and torp bombers can come out much earlier

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Timing wise it's vaguely like missile ships vs land, but land has more interactive options to deter or destroy missile ships if they can't go into sea themselves (eg. cloaked snipers on beach, cerb, tac missile)

thorny fjord
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Id rather leave the flagship out of this discussion, that unit also needs to be balanced but seperatly

little jewel
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Please... lets do like SupCOM and have some walking murder boats

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you know what im talking about right?

image.png
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I think darkspyrt would approve

thorny fjord
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Sir! The Salems are walking!

languid eagle
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Like a cooler looking hover?

ivory garden
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Undeniably cool ngl

drifting field
misty bone
supple wren
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@golden plover did you ever get around to making that fix?

golden plover
supple wren
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Ok! I'll put it on my to-do list to compile the fixes found this far and post about them on the GitHub issue. From here on, let's use this thread as a proper suggestion thread for balancing torpedo planes.

cloud path
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The main problem with torp bombers is how terrible they are from an aerodynamic perspective. So boxy, terrible efficiency in the air... don't get me started on the small wing area. Its like the devs didn't run computational fluid dynamics on their models before putting them in the game.

royal pendant
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so the planes are literally using cheats to fly and we still let them play ?

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lets ban the planes

thorny fjord
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Another way of balance could be removing the tracking, with how fast they are hitting big targets shouldnt be much harder and would allow smaller targets to actually get around them

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With the current sea meta ships are mostly clumped, so good micro from both sides decides how much damage a torpedo run does.

pure flame
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That would make it hard to hit amphibious units like marauders, more than anything else

thorny fjord
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True but that doesnt have to be their role, spybots are very effective against them. Having them be that multirole could also be considered overtuned. And again good micro will be rewarded.

pure flame
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If the micro gets sketchy close with ranges, then you can micro into the bombers and be rewarded for it. Instead of just dodging

thorny fjord
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Excacly, i like to look at how world of warships does it. Those bombers have tons of damage but good micro from either side can make or break a run.

pure flame
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Hm on world of warships you can only dodge lol. The AA is mostly outside of the control of the ship that gets attacked

thorny fjord
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I was pointing at how micro gets rewarded not how the game has them balanced

pure flame
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Its different is what im saying. In BAR the AA ships should be able to deal with the Air. And the AA ships are targets but struggle getting into range to return fire

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So the bombers should not have tracking as in BAR there is combat between the Ship and the aircraft? emoflathink So dodging torpedos in BAR is less interesting?

thorny fjord
raw spear
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I think looking at balance in terms of single lab vs single lab is a trap. Does navy have to deal with everything? Does air? U can make another lab to counter, bar super flexible with that

thorny fjord
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I have already talked about this, going any other lab is a death sentence for navy, its not about full counter its about having no options to defend yourself.

pure flame
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T2 AA navy should be trading evenly with the bombers. But currently navy can only fight Torpedo bombers if the opponent has poor micro. How u want the balancing to look is the first question you should ask urself

ivory garden
pure flame
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Why does that matter? If its on beach just use land units

analog current
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core of this issue seems to be that naval fights are decided by involvement of air players more-so than by how well the naval players are playing

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thus reducing navals player's agency

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if transitioning to air themselves is the best play for naval players in alot of cases that seems like an issue

raw spear
# analog current core of this issue seems to be that naval fights are decided by involvement of a...

there's other reasons this is the case, not naval balance. See, if a standard 8v8 map would have 2 opponents fighting on secluded land stripe where they can't get significant help from teammates, the lane fight would in the end be decided by air - who the air is helping the most with gunships, bombings etc.

So in a way I think this "air problem" is the problem of lanes that don't interact with other lanes much. But air can interact with all lanes, so they have the most visible effect of turning around a battle. If air wouldn't be able to interact with navy because of some OP AA ships or other mechanics, this would be a catastrophy IMO. Air has ways to interact with all and this should stay, because most air interactions are suicide runs anyway

pure flame
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Their ability to assist in water is higher than vs land units

raw spear
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i don't think that's true tho?

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but because navy is 1v1, it's impactful. also because navy snowballls

pure flame
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Other than Torpedo bombers there is also the liche. The Navy AA cant deal with them effectively unlike land AA vs air

raw spear
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same would happen on land, but land is less snowbally and almost never secluded 1v1

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you can't stop bombers on land without air

pure flame
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The T2 veh flak work well

raw spear
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kind of a big role of air is influencing positions that are hard to reach and more 1v1, so it would be a shame if air lost this perk in sea, just becase somehow "navy HAS to deal with any threat that comes towards it"

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no, it doesnt have to, get an airlab. i know klaboem says it's been talked about already, but not very pricese - all the arguments of bad navy AA come down to someone helping navy with air, but that other navy can't make air or get help, because (?). If one gets it, other can too

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or else it's not really a fair comparison or discussion

pure flame
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Its not like when you play land units. You dont go "oh no enemy has Gunships, quick build an airlab as the AA is not good enough"

raw spear
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imagine playing navy and getting air assist, just to see you and another air player die to simply one opponents navy AA.

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everytime a push gets gunshipped, you see ppl yelling "air! air!"

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and air has to come clean it up

pure flame
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Usually thats cause land ppl dont build any AA

thorny fjord
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Again its not about a full counter or denial, its about not having options to defend yourself

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Especially with navy where there are always large reclaim fields

raw spear
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navy AA doesn't suck vs torpedo bombers, it's marginally worse and also only vs a great air microer

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its very unfair to say there's no options

thorny fjord
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Navy aa is worthless againd TB bc it doesnt reach them

raw spear
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to manouver in a way you don't get flaked every circle, you need a huge territory that is somehow devoid of enemy units, AA, etc. it's really not a thing you can do in any scenario. often some bombers die when trying to sink a target. i'd mention hover lab but navy doesn't get to use other labs, so there's also t1 AA spam (skater, herring) navy can do to chip away.

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i'm afraid that if navy can deal with AA without loses, it's an impenetrable lab on waters. kinda silly if you think about it, is air just gonna go "well, that part of the map is closed for me", while it's only big perk is an ability to influence whole map. navy is already strong

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navy needs assist or dies when opponent gets assist. IMO

thorny fjord
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TB dont need that much room, navy is always going to be bunched up, otherwise you lose tthe tradss

raw spear
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what can t2 botlab do vs air? vs stunners? nohing

thorny fjord
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Thats a manticore balance issue

pure flame
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The T2 bot AA just sucks. T1 AA bots are better so ye, should be made similar strength as veh

raw spear
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ye but it's not an issue IMO, because how can air affect anything, if all labs have a button to delete air influence?

thorny fjord
raw spear
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air raids are very much suicidal in nature, always a lot of it dies. so the balance HAS to be such that also opponents stuff dies. if it can't, it's an impotent role

pure flame
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Like The veh T2 flak fills the role perfectly as T2 AA should

thorny fjord
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You are dragging in so many different things and losing track of the discussion

raw spear
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people forget when they micro on land, not wasting units... that with air you just waste waste waste all the time. everything dies in 1 shot, you waste all bombers on a run... and you can't expect same lvl of protection vs air if all air does it throw metal into suicide stuff

#

i am dragging, but only because i think this issue isn't understood

thorny fjord
pure flame
#

I dont see an issue. Like u build T2 veh flak and it works fairly vs air. And the alternative T2 AAs are worse. So making it similar strength as T2 veh flak doesnt make air worse

raw spear
#

Navy is too self sustainable already to be even more selfsustainable

#

I guess i wanna say that is players are fine with navy having that power over territory by itself, thats fine. I think its terrible for the game personally. Because navy territory is also teammates hover and gantry mustering grounds and becomes even more op

thorny fjord
#

Then contest the territory with your own navy

#

You are arguing like only one side ever gets to go navy

raw spear
#

I understand theres ways, but these ways of "jyst make more navy" arent healthy when game tries to have lab interactions promoted

thorny fjord
#

The same can be said about grunts

#

Or any land unit

raw spear
#

But its really not true. Land mingles with land, sea is secluded. And you want only sea to affect sea cost efficiently when already less exposed?

thorny fjord
#

It is very much true, units win lanes win games. And yes pand should only effect land cost efficiently just like sea

#

Air and hovers have the ability to go amywhere thats why both land and sea should have options against them, that doesnt make air or hover gameplay worthless.

#

And its why the have different build costs

#

Right now air has a unit that cannot be stopped by any sea unit. Unlike every other tech.

raw spear
#

i agree air has a better vs navy unit that vs land unit. it's not impossible to stop, it has limitations where to strike, it's not as bleak, but ye, it's better in that role - agree. but sea is also better at defending sea territory than land labs are. so it's a healthy asymmetry, caused by sea having relatively uncontested huge territory.

i know you play isthmus and i do too, and i'm worried what more sea dominance could bring. assaults from won sea side are already the best kind of assaults you can make. to make it less influenced by air teammate seems just worse in general, doesn't it?

#

i suppose teammates could pivot to sealab instead of torpedo bombers to help, but that's just more snowballing, more slow sea fights ending in uncountable reclaim fields

thorny fjord
#

TB are impossible to stop, I already linked to where i said why, sea isnt uncontested unless you lost the lane, which should have repercussions. The snowballing or dominance of the sealane isnt fit for this discussion as that is a navy balance issue, not a TB issue. And yes swapping to sea if its losing can be a very good play.

#

Also many seafights have been decided by a single emp bomber. However there are options versus that

raw spear
#

well i guess if we're talking stricktly torp bombers, you're right. they're unbalanced vs sea. my point is in current game interaction, this is more healthy. but if sea rework comes, who knows? i dont know why tho should we discuss about a scenario that might come. whats true now is current sea snowball nature

#

so we could very much turn game into worse by eliminating this unbalance vs air

pure flame
#

It is a good point. I do dislike navy as it crushes other lab types

thorny fjord
#

Yss but navy units also cost way more

#

But again different discussion

pure flame
#

Its possible there should be a thread discussing how navy can be improved. As the TB unbalance is fairly clear in a vacuum (lots of dislikers of the TB idea tho, 9 yes vs 22 no).

thorny fjord
#

I dont see 22 people arguing no, so im fine with ignoring them

#

Als the title should have been chosen differently imo

pure flame
#

Nah its appropriate. There exists different mindsets

thorny fjord
#

Also i bet most of them think fighters are an option without reading what i said about the 2v2 scenario

pure flame
#

Speaking of navy, I think the T2 navy jammer should be removed actually. The T2 missile launcher is stronk and cannot be touched

thorny fjord
#

Please, different discussion🙃

pure flame
#

It would make it easier to use TBs aswell so nerf more justified

thorny fjord
#

Use a radar plane, that should alleviate most of that problem, or t1 scout spam. Which most of the navy players do anyway in the t2 navy phase

pure flame
#

Ye the radar plane cant see through the jammer is an issue. Los not enough

thorny fjord
#

Its viewrange is big enough i think

pure flame
#

Nah bro. Like I believe los is 1275 while AA range is 840. The plane has to fly around in circles mind you. Only having radar makes the TBs inaccurate aswell. Los shouldnt be forced

thorny fjord
#

Yea but again not the thread for this

pure flame
#

I dont like narrow views on balance. I like complex solutions 🙃. I adressed my specific tweak suggestion here #1295107209583263785 message

grim wraith
#

one issue is there's a big disparity in ship speed

thorny fjord
#

yes there could be some balancing done in relative speed and manouverability but it seems like a fun idea

grim wraith
#

torps would have to be high range tho

#

if they are slow enough to be dogeable. so there's question of how to make t2 aa ships valid (zoning missile?)

#

also, like recluses, when you have 5+ torp bombers and a pack of ships eventually dodging becomes impractical

#

how will air kill faster skaters then?

#

could add the puffin to t2 lab, the angler is the heavy longer range dumbfire torp volley, puffin is for flex sea control

analog current
#

I agree with some previous posts that the best argument against nerfing torps is naval power vs land

#

its a strange balance where navy is bad at projecting power over sea but amazing at it vs land

#

even combating large numbers of ducks and the sort can be hard for navy and requires specific responses

thorny fjord
#

if the best argument is against nerfing an air unit is the power naval has against land then it seems pretty clear to me that they need to be nerfed

#

naval power vs land is a naval balancing issue and not a torpedo plane balancing issue

analog current
#

so the real question is than: do we want to keep the asymmetrical balance on these 3 labs

#

it seems reasonable to question it since you have 2 losers and only 1 winner

#

navy and ground end up with reduced influence in the game depending on factors outside their influence

#

looking at either issue in isolation also seems counter productive

#

how much would it really break the game if you give flak ships an additional screamer like aa turret, make the sub and ship launched torpedoes way better vs stuff like marauders and ducks and at the same time you apply a flat 20% nerf across the board on surface combat ships

golden plover
#

as a principal of What You See Is What You Get

analog current
#

yeah I would not go so deeply into that yet, idc if they also kill subs faster

#

they just seem to deal dmg slowly

#

marauders can slip right under a massive navy and take few casualties

#

feels off

pure flame
#

Why not just buff flat DMG and Hp of amph stuff that are not marauders?

analog current
#

torp bombers are likely better at killing swimming marauders than any ship

#

again its strange since navy is dedicated sea lab

golden plover
#

subs and dmg to UW units is a whole other topic tbf

pure flame
#

Yes but its a worthy thing to bring up 🙃 Navy is essentially a seperate can of worms

analog current
#

yeah moving any block can really shift the whole thing

supple wren
#

My goodness, this is gonna be a long one.

pure flame
#

Sorry seth

supple wren
#

Remember to emoji react to stuff so I know what I need to read carefully. ;p

pure flame
#

I like ur pfp Seth

golden plover
pure flame
#

um I have made a tweak Id be happy to make it approved somehow

thorny fjord
#

What about the bombers is hurting you rippsey?

supple wren
#

Indeed he has.
But, that should probably be its own thread at this point. #1304098629409308754 message

#

If you beat me to it, post your things there

#

Dealing with a death in the family right now.

golden plover
# thorny fjord What about the bombers is hurting you rippsey?

The way they behave following changing attributes and their interactions and stuff is just really frustraiting to modify and test and then modify and test and get consistent results that do what i expect them to do when i change them, I might come back to it but right now i'm just frustraited with them 😦

supple wren
golden plover
pure flame
#

Unit Tweaks in a nutshell🙃

pearl glade
#

this is again making one map's design problem entire game's problem

ivory garden
#

For clarity, after all this discussion, I do not see a need to nerf/change them. Sure the mechanics/ range numbers would be cool to make clearer(this is a side point) but balance-wise they're fine imho. If a complete rework of the unit is what people want then sure...maybe later with a lot more work.

analog current
#

I also think its balanced but in a weird and annoying way that lets air decide winners and losers

ivory garden
# analog current I also think its balanced but in a weird and annoying way that lets air decide w...

I never die in the ways described by sea players in this thread(Yes, I do play sea.). I don't understand this perspective. Sea decides winners/ losers all the time w/ little/ no agency from land/air. I agree the mechanics are weird etc. I think they're also balanced enough as they are and nerfing them is also weird. Furthermore, the counters etc, mentioned DO work. I'm successful with this all the time(I'm guessing others are too).

thorny fjord
#

To read all this, see no argument to not nerf them and say that baffles me tbh

#

Having an unstoppable unit to counterbalance a stronger tech is not healthy

ivory garden
#

I don't agree it's unstoppable. The experience you describe is not the experience I have on sea.

grim wraith
#

only answer is micro battle tests

supple wren
#

I'm not gonna spam about the development, but, I wanna vibe check you guys.

I can write a gadget that makes it so that whenever torpedoes get beyond the plane's maxTorpedoRange, they're destroyed. That means you preserve the range but you have to commit to the attack. If you peel away early, your torpedoes may detonate before reaching their mark.

Additionally, I can override the displayed range from the unitdef to whatever this maxTorpedoRange is.

grim wraith
#

the overrange is dependent on the forward momentum of the plane i think

#

so it's not unconditional range

#

a max range circle could be confusing

pure flame
#

The max range circle would have some deviation around the average I think thats acceptable. The gadget idea seems to be referring to reduced flighttime? Sounds sketchy. But ye, overriding to display effective range I like that

lucid jay
#

Suggestion for a smaller change: Make it less tanky. The only thing frustating for me is that bad torp micro is not punished enough. You can fly into the range of flakship without even loosing a single torp due to flakship being inaccurate and torp being too tanky.

late temple
ivory garden
upbeat breach
#

every plane dies extremely quickly to fighters..

grim wraith
#

t2 figs op

thorny fjord
#

Yes but figs dont counter thrm because they can launch from above friendly aa

raw spear
#

Imagine trading

#

Torp is what, 3-4 figs price? Also very specific use

lucid jay
golden plover
#

So @ivory garden 32,000metal of torp bombers 1 shots both flagships & titans? 😄

ivory garden
#

XD seems so. pretty biblical ngl. best part was they were free too!

grim wraith
void solar
#

What's this talk about set target giving 1500 range? I can't replicate that

#

How would I do that

pure flame
#

I trust Rippsys calculations to be correct. But ye, judge from how far away the torpedo can fire at a target

golden plover
#

#1295107209583263785 message

#

roughly; you set target on a unit, have it in radar, fly towards it on a direct heading, and as soon as the bombs are released turn at less than 90 from current heading

#

let me see if i can setup a demo one minute

#

I think the 1500 drop also included going over a sea-mountain that caused it to pitch up and drop even earlier, so that's probably a bit unlikely, but the concepts remains the same as the image i think Seth linked in the dev thread: #1295107209583263785 message

#

or a vector on the units in the sea heading towards the torp plane, so it predict fires even earlier. can't recall exactly but its more than 650

void solar
#

Ok I think I see the issue now, the weapons gravity value still just takes the map gravity

#

so the range is inconsistent across maps

#

And ppl saying that set target gives you more range, is kinda fake news - the bombs drop at same distance, but set target gives you more freedom for movement in what angle to have when reaching that distance. Is that correct or me missing something?

thorny fjord
#

i dont know about set target giving more range, just more freedom of movement yea

rigid halo
#

Trop planes are a bit busted with that Bonus range. 10 Troops can easily murder whole fleet freely with the insane drop distance. Image T2 bombers dropping from that insane range everyone would rage about it.

Make T2 bombers act the same way give them the speed and drop distance so they can be mircoed just as well and see how that turns out lol.

rigid halo
thorny fjord
#

yea

rigid halo
#

and trop planes and Actually super tanky against flak boats needing like 3 or more flak shots to get killed.

While a flak boat can only shot every sec or so there no way for them to get a sold kill in unless you have 5 of them out in one spot and planes show up for less than a sec to DELETE 3 of those flaks.

It will always be a negative trade for the boat player.

void solar
#

Let's see how that plays out before going crazy with further ideas

supple wren
void solar
#

Torp bombers don't have gravityaffected = true tag, despite being affected by gravity, so they have not been affected by the global weapon gravity defined in alldefs_post.

In other words, their range is inconsistent across maps.

This changes that and sets their gravity to be the same as other gravityaffected weapons, resulting in a range nerf on low-gravity maps.

supple wren
#

Is supreme isthmas a low gravity map?

void solar
#

yes

supple wren
#

What is the range you typically get from your best micro with your change?

void solar
#

~1100, vs ~1250 with Supreme's gravity

#

micro doesn't play into it, the bombs drop when they drop

rigid halo
ivory garden
#

Hmm I'd guess micro makes a big difference. Generally it's the height/speed of the TB relative to target

void solar
ivory garden
#

Nerfing them in this way will dramatically effect balance. This is some folks aim in this thread. I don't think this will turn into anything anyone wants when sea becomes even harder to counter. I can undertand wanted to change hte numbers/ etc for consistency/clarity. HOWEVER, altering balance is undesirable imho.

thorny fjord
#

well anything to stop them from being free to use is good

ivory garden
#

they're literally not

thorny fjord
#

they absolutely are

#

how is launching from outside the range of any counter play not free to use?>

ivory garden
#

There's a bizarre disconnect in this thread. Some people can counter them at will(me) and some can't. I dont get it

thorny fjord
#

they can only be countered if there are no navy ships in the saea

#

they are litteraly the best navy unit you can make

ivory garden
#

what about the one w/ 2500 range?

thorny fjord
#

out dps, outrange and out manouver everything

#

you can litteraly oneshot that one with less metal cost in TB

ivory garden
#

I've heard this claim before, however, I have also seen sea players try to back that up. They never can.(regarding being the best navy unit). It's a support unit and cannot act on its own.

thorny fjord
#

brother you cant talk like this, ive seen you bully navy lanes with 10 TB while ecoing

#

and the navy player couldnt do anything about it

#

by the time he could you had 3 extra afus up and could outproduce him in everything

ivory garden
#

Oh for sure. Although I'd hate to make 10. I've been the navy player as well though

pallid mortar
ivory garden
#

xd no

pallid mortar
#

i dont get it

thorny fjord
#

also please try to emp bomber or nukebomb the navy while they are engaged, there are enough options to stop them from winning

pallid mortar
ivory garden
#

I have quite literally, on t1, stopped multiple nuke bombers, emp, and TB in the same game. against a 40OS air, and 34 os se

thorny fjord
#

hate to make 10, thats what? 4k metal? to kill 20k metal in ships and secure another 10k metal in reclaim

#

show it

#

send me the replay

ivory garden
#

hmm, im not sure I have a nice way to find the replay though and it was weeks ago

#

Everyone saw me do it on stream and in discord

thorny fjord
#

then i cant believe you on that

ivory garden
#

figured. Darkspyrit saw it, Rippsy etc

#

basically I had 3:1 skater/destroyer

thorny fjord
#

i have litteraly stopped playing sea because of torp bombers, it is nearly impossible to kill people who have a vague idea of how to play it within 10 minutes. only way is the labswap on geo.

#

even if you win they stop you from getting the reclaim and then any labswap just is too slow

ivory garden
#

The main issue I see w/ sea is when people push too early around the 12 minute mark and no AA. Then die to the air player. You cannot push without AA, this is just over-extending imho. I always have a lot of AA when the air player could be t2, as I cannot afford to lose. So if you cannot push with AA you cannot afford it.

thorny fjord
#

thats because at the 12 minute mark your only aa is herrings, and having too much of those will not allow you to push. and they often get auto targeted because of their low hp

ivory garden
#

ya agreed, and in that case I'd say it's just not affordable to win safely. You could still get away w/ it but it's risky. Same w/ if geo is core bots and you push w/ a ton of frigates....they could make ducks.

thorny fjord
#

thats the biggest problem, you either win early enough to beat the tb timing, or you watch as the sea just becomes a matchup between who the best air player is. and that is not something you want if youre often one of the highest os there.

ivory garden
#

Yep agreed. I also for context cannot ever win sea early for some reason b/c bad/not aggressive enouhg. So I almost always run into the TB/gang situation. I don't really think it's reasonable to expect to not be ganged on sea when it is the most important position and when people have the means.

thorny fjord
#

and thats where they are too strong, they are so oppressive that the navy play has no counterplay to them, in a 2v2 situation

#

im not against ganging higher os, im against not giving the higher os a way to not die

#

land lanes have porc for example, sea just doesnt have anything

ivory garden
#

my point is I STILL, counter them, even though im not as fast at winning

thorny fjord
#

again i need to see the replays of that happening, so i can see how and why

#

i need to see how the range nerf works out, i bet they wont fall off as far as you think. also instead we might be able to just remove the tracking instead of nerfing the range too hard

#

give the navy player options

ivory garden
#

Another large issue in this thread is the lack of concern for terrain. Flak on a beach is a non-interaction between sea/air. It's(to use a familiar description) free. No one cares about this? Just me?

pure flame
#

Water is usually flat

ivory garden
#

The point is islands/tight waterways etc like on most. The issues in this thread are largely due to wide open, uncontested water

pallid mortar
#

flak is pretty easy to push away from a beach, and also if they have enough flak to completely zone you out of a sea then they have spent many many thousands of metal to achieve this

#

TB's are for sure much weaker on narrow waterways, but ironically changing their behaviour to not drop early would improve this for them, you'd have much more ability to control when they dropped

thorny fjord
#

well navy does need alot of space to manouver, but i dont think navy is really in the right spot right now. as you do spend the amount of metal on ships you would normally spend on t2 units. 960 metal for a single destroyer

#

part of the tb problem is also how much damage they do to a tech that has a very high metal concentration on single units

golden plover
supple wren
#

OK, the GDT has reviewed the issue and determined that the intended role of the Torpedo Bombers isn't to be a hard counter against all sea options including AA. It's intended to trade with them efficiently. To that end, PinkGeneral's most recent tweak accomplishes this well. After that's been given a thorough testing, we'll slap it into the main game and see how it plays. If the torpedo bomber is still too exploitable we'll explore other options then.

#

Further discussion on this matter is kinda moot until this change has been in affect for a while and players have time to adjust.

grim wraith
grim wraith
supple wren
#

Effective range decrease down to around 1,000

#

Accomplished by reducing weapondef range to 420

grim wraith
#

the only way you win is economic lead AND the navy player constantly feeding

#

anyways the torp bomber is good vs t1 but it's OP against t2

grim wraith
#

because sieging is so expensive with aa ships that it can be better to just threaten to siege and greed

#

flak ships on the shore is like 5k metal that has to walk for 80 seconds

#

is the epitome of safety

#

torp bombers still have use like sniping mexes, ships from angles, reinforcements

grim wraith
#

if your sea player is not a complete potato or got gamed super hard by their sea player it's ez to defend with an air advantage

grim wraith
#

here is some more realistic demonstration, enemy aa ships moving back and forth. If the navy fleets are fighting you cannot put your aa ships in front for long as they will die. Esp in t2 phase.

#

micro vs aa ships and jammer is quite difficult, but you can juno them it becomes MUCH easier

#

there's 2 factors that are not present: enemy figs, and ally ships. But let's put that aside for a sec.

#

-micro is severely difficult with jammer, not very hard with jammer gone and 3 pin pointers
-the micro itself is not bad skill expression
-burst is too high, 5 torps almost 1 shots a battleship

#

the angler has higher burst per cost than the SHARPSHOOTER
this is BURST not dps

#

angler has less cooldown than sharpshooter, more range, is extremely fast as opposed to slow, is tanky except vs t2 figs

thorny fjord
#

And the torps have tracking, which a sharpshooter does not

grim wraith
#

well sharpshooter generally shoudln't miss, the delay to impact is a downside technically

thorny fjord
#

True but a sharpshooter round does tturn around when it does

grim wraith
#

you mean the sharpshooter unit turns around to fire?

thorny fjord
#

Sharpshooter shot*

grim wraith
#

what turns around? sharpshooter shot is basically straight line with a small arc

thorny fjord
#

A torpedo can turn around ahmnd hit the target anyway, if a sharshooter misses thats ist

grim wraith
#

oh

languid eagle
#

A. Keep a radar plane with the torp bombers.

B. Set target

C. Fly torp bombers in a circle near the target, but outside of naval aa range.

elfin knot
# grim wraith -micro is severely difficult with jammer, not very hard with jammer gone and 3 p...

lets not get back to comparing the pricing of things, as we discussed earlier in this thread its a lot more complicated than 5 torps vs 1 bs. You also need air superiority to keep using them so any comparison is out the window at the get go plz.

I feel this thread is way overdue for its purpose, just adjust the range by -100 as a start, release it as a testing option (something like part of candidate unit pack as its generally just slightly worse than vanilla so 'balanced') and let people ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT to see how they find it. If its still too strong, reduce the range by additional 25 or reduce the damage as some ppl suggest, but nerfing something dramatically or in more than 1 way AT THE SAME TIME is a recipe for disaster.

grim wraith
#

the point is that sea battle just becomes air battle, with ships just support and zoning for torps

#

it's an exaggeration but its no joke t2 torps more burst / cost then sharpshooters

#

I think -200 range is too much

#

some range and burst dmg (it only affects vs t2 ships and t3 amphib anyways)

#

have you seen how underpowered the other options are like ducks

#

330/9500 for a duck
more energy than a torp bomber

elfin knot
# grim wraith yes, no one doubts t2 figs effectiveness on them

im not arguing anything's effectiveness, all i am saying is ur comparisos are all flawed. You dont seem to understand what different roles mean for sharpshootere and a torp bomber, they are not in any way comparable due to the wast difference in their roles. If we agree -200 reange is too much, as I said make it -100 and see how it goes, nerfing more than 1 aspect at a time is a bad bad choice and must be avoided.

grim wraith
#

I don't want torps to be nerfed to be useless so we have to play with them for 2 months

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

torp bomber counter really boils down to having a solid enemy air player

#

not much navy player can do against it

#

but if you have 2 soild air players all that matters is making aa screen so that enemy can't profitably snipe

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

In a 15 second window you can snipe a battle ship with 5 torps, they pay back their value already

grim wraith
elfin knot
#

its the lab that makes the strongest t2 units in the game

grim wraith
#

the dreadnaught is pathetic

#

useless against starlight gets 1 shot by 6 torp bombers

#

You know your argument imo is like

#

when people complain that t1 navy is OP on tropical assault. your argument is saying, just have a good navy player

#

the problem is that one lane dominants the other if you survive the first 10 minutes

#

planes can be fielded reactively, double air is popular, walking ships out there takes longer travel time and risks leaving the wrecks

#

when's the last time you saw a profitable titan walk across the water?

elfin knot
#

I fail to get your point

grim wraith
#

after 10 minutes air lane and double air dictates sea lane too much

thorny fjord
elfin knot
elfin knot
grim wraith
#

yeah and why didn't they die to 4k metal in torps? cause you had air control

#

plp say use aa hovers they are ok. plats are better until their ground attack becomes useless

#

aa hovers are very overcosted and enemy ships should zone them from standing in front of your ships

elfin knot
thorny fjord
#

Cant field hovers while still fighting navy

grim wraith
#

what it is 7.5k metal in torps to 2 shot a flagship

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

mercury is for defense only

elfin knot
#

if you attacking get platys

grim wraith
#

platy's are the only decent counterplay since they contribute a ground attack too

elfin knot
#

what you saying and what your argument essentially is that As a sea player you suppsoed to just counter everything that half the enemy team throws at you by yourself AND from a single t2 lab

grim wraith
#

how as the sea player you get platy's?

grim wraith
#

you know that shredder counters all a2g. when attacking

thorny fjord
#

Mercury doesnt cover the entire ocean stop using that expensiva af building as an option

#

Building a mercury is auto lose sea

grim wraith
#

the only reason why shredder isn't OP is that you have to build them before hand, plp tend to lose them

elfin knot
grim wraith
elfin knot
grim wraith
#

only because of your effeciency and sea diffing people

#

besides when you pay 2/3 the cost of the torps to purely defend yourself it's like w/e

#

consul in an ideal world you should be able to get it, but really this is like relying on teammate to have a particular lab and give you consul

elfin knot
elfin knot
grim wraith
#

why tf you need 10 torps

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

when 7 one shots a despot and 6 a dreadnaught

elfin knot
thorny fjord
#

You need 10, torps shoot outside aa range so never a need to replace

grim wraith
#

hover aa + plat can zone in front of your ships if there's no enemy ships. this is good practice
but even with inferior fleet enemy can just post and shoot your aa units until they are forced to back up

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

that's only for defense

#

if you can prevent the sea from launching attacks then you save your sea, any attack in progress turns into a feed

thorny fjord
#

Mercury doesnt reach where im fighting, if im on defense ive already lost bc of reclaim

grim wraith
#

plat spam + coordinated with ships against long beach is a play i've been trying to do

#

it's fine, but most games don't go liek that

elfin knot
#

again if you fighting someone who is as good as you are on sea then you are just dead without team help. If you are way ahead of your opponent means you will have more ships and the difference in ships will be in mass t1 aa that will swarm and kill

grim wraith
#

you fight someone 10 os lower than you

#

team just tell them to chill a bit and they can even greed more after 9 min

#

if you go for a push and their air is a bit ahead, chances are it's a feed

thorny fjord
#

And that is the problem, it is not fun to play a lame that once you are 2v1 ud just die with no other option

grim wraith
#

the reason why people build ducks or plat to help sea even if it's ineffecient is swinging the reclaim is worth it

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

but the thing is air IS effecient against all ships (aside from enemy figs, which can be buffered against with friendly aa)

grim wraith
#

double air is now so strong because it removes the biggest counter which is enemy figs

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

yes, that is true

#

there's a solution, you just have buffering friendly aa, so enemy will lose more in figs to your torps if they snipe them

#

or you go double air and alternate between killing lanes and greeding

elfin knot
#

or you just make a bloody mercury and greed urslef

thorny fjord
grim wraith
#

air player can see a fight breaking out then switch full force to torps if needed. t2 ships have to walk 1 min

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

it's not counter, it's be able to run away

#

travel distance means that push has to have some threat

elfin knot
#

you still not making a single point that would justify why you should be able to push 1v3 alone without having equivalent eco to 3 players

grim wraith
#

if you can just see a push coming and make torps then a push has no threat

elfin knot
#

skill is important but it should not overtake game econimics

grim wraith
#

why tf is it 1v3

thorny fjord
#

You cant run away and defend, you will lose the ability to trade, access to the reclaim and thus cannot do anything to affect the sea anymore

elfin knot
thorny fjord
#

Because your opponent is so far ahead now even a 20 os cluld beat a 40 os

grim wraith
#

i haven't even played sea, i love t2 air lab so easy.

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

you can greed until the moment you are needed then defend a commited push

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

i know

#

part of the problem is how it makes 2nd air so brainless ez

elfin knot
#

so why u commenting on how easy air is

grim wraith
#

i'm not saying the AIR position is ez
i'm saying the lab is OP and ez

elfin knot
#

you got t2 air lab and you get 20 platys coming from the sea, plesae tell me what you make from the lab to defend

grim wraith
#

you just fight over your friendly battleship and 2-3 aa ship + jammer
you kill the enemy ships, ally 2 lightning ships deals with the platy run bys

#

if it's an early t1 push, that does work

#

in my 100's of games like less than 1% of games i've seen platy's used intelligently like that

#

i love platy's they are good units, I use them everywhere i can

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

hyper mobile + cost effective is a toxic combination. yes t2 figs delete everything but there is way to mitigate that with friendly aa

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

it covers a small part of the map that's way navy aa ships are not great for carryin the game
because they can never defend your team's land army or bases

#

covering a small part of the map is a disadvantage how can you not understand

elfin knot
elfin knot
grim wraith
#

land has more players
and everyone's bases (all 8)

thorny fjord
#

A mercury doesmt REACH it is a LAND building.

elfin knot
#

anyway i got to go, will be back later

grim wraith
#

to say land is equally important as sea (in terms of walking terrain) is dumb

#

imagine a torp bomber that only works on land
no one would ever build a heavy unit again

thorny fjord
#

Imagine t2 bombers launching at the eco player before the flak can reach it

grim wraith
#

it's not a crazy comparison, since shredder has roughly same range and more speed than t2 aa ship

thorny fjord
#

And make the bombs homing

grim wraith
#

navy units have more power cause sea is meant to be like 20%-40% of the map, and winning navy doesn't directly wipe out everyone's bases

#

there's a reason why naval afus doesn't exist

#

so sea player can't hide naval afus in the corner underwater where no land army can reach them

thorny fjord
#

They are also very expensive respectivly for t1-2 units

grim wraith
thorny fjord
#

I already thought of this, just wanted to see where the range of the bships end

grim wraith
#

well the important thing is that bship range > aa range

thorny fjord
#

while the bships are out of range can the tbs stay in range of friendly aa and still fire

grim wraith
#

prolly yeah, non-trivial micro

thorny fjord
#

then i rest my case

grim wraith
#

but they have to dive into the middle of your ball to get them

#

t2 figs WILL kill the torp bombers if they dive, the requirment is to make it cost more so you just replace torps

thorny fjord
#

well it would, because the figs killing them would all die to the aa. you would trade alot of figs to kill a few tb

#

after the tb have already gotten their value as you need less metal in tb to kill a bship in one shot

grim wraith
#

yeah 2 shots and they paid for themself

#

its true what justa said, air has to make a lot of figs to protect air units normally

#

but this setup doesn't require many figs

thorny fjord
#

well if you have a few figs to pull off the opponent figs the tb can survive, as you have flak killing the rest of the figs

grim wraith
#

this micro is fine IMO, ground aa should be able to do some dmg to the torps

#

yeah you have some ally figs behind your aa wall

#

to clean lose ones that got through

#

IMO:
-t2fig dmg prolly should be nerfed. dunno how it can be balanced with bombers, but gunships/dragon/torp bomber die too fast to them, esp relative to ground aa
-torp bomber burst needs nerf. and small range nerf.
-buff t1 hover aa

#

1 angler = 2.6 nighthawks, maybe 2.8 if you account for the higher bp cost

elfin knot
#

unlike t2 figs or ships, torp bombers will never get jammed so you will always see them approaching from the distance, its pretty easy to time a small group of your figs to intercept, a lot of the times for easier micro the torps will be clumped together so aoe from figs does massive damage and you dont need to lose many figs to snipe them, if they pull back you pull back and its just a micro game at that point but the key point is ur ally ships are jammer, the sonar plane does not provide vision if you intercept (it either dies or goes out of vision range for ur ships and the torp bombers even if they drop the bombs, lose the vision and do no damage. Any good air player will know this interaction and we can judge by the votes on the thread itself that there isnt much support in nerfing torps to begin with. I reiterate: -100 range as a start and let us test it with a selectable option like candidate unit pack (not a unit tweak - they tend to be much harder to pass in lobby). If it doesnt seem enough after testing, reduce the range a bit more. Slow and steady is the approach you should take here

grim wraith
#

sure nerfing it step by step is preferable to making it useless for 2 months

#

jammer works on anglers, and if they are junoing your jammer ships you can juno their jammer ships

#

jammer won't perfectly hide your torps/oracle but it will help somewhat

#

the game becomes less positionally rewarding when the hypermobile option (tick, abductor, situationally the torp bomber) is also one of the most cost effective ones

#

you should be rewarded for scouting and commiting counter-units before hand, and not as much for spotting titans entering the water then pumping 12 torps

raw spear
#

Doesnt all this boil down to the fact that teamgame relies on team coordination?

#

Thats how i see it when i read that navy has to have air support. Well yeah, it does. Its a big territory traversable only by navy and air largely

#

Always better for two labs to keep territory in check than one lab

golden plover
raw spear
#

I think navy should be exeption ti that

#

Because it already dominates all sea without contest

#

So air having influence is good, or else its just navy

thorny fjord
#

Yes just like land

raw spear
#

Land has multiple labs contesting and also navy near land trumps land. Navy just too good to be only part of sea puzzle

thorny fjord
#

Thats a navy balance issue and not a tb balance issue

#

Im starting to repeat myself here

raw spear
#

Yeah we going circles but rn this IS the reality of the game

grim wraith
#

navy has some issues like t1 being op

#

shredder already exists, you make 5-8 you counter all air in a push

thorny fjord
#

Yes the power and cost of t1 navy differs too much with the other techs, this also adds to the effectiveness of tb. Same for the t2 navy.

grim wraith
#

i'm not even an air player and I prefer playing land than sea now. more pleasant to manage the sea lane past 10 minutes from land/air then from sea.

#

you also have the option to let the sea die and let them build a flag ship, cause woah and behold that doesn't end the game or kill you

#

plus of a non-sea spawn

pallid mortar
#

This is only relevant if 'dominating sea' is relevant. T2 Boats lose to t2 land if they are in range. The only exception is flagship, we already want that put in T3 lab.

Having more than one kind of sea lab could also be interesting.

The problem that people complain about is that navy can literally only defend itself from t2 air using things that aren't boats. This isn't true in any other lab. They might not have good aa options, but they always have them. Navies only recourse Vs well microed TB is to make so much T1 aa boats that the air player gets bored killing them.

The problem with the 2v1 thing is how absurdly efficient the 2v1 is. Quite often the TB only needs to get two runs off to have paid for themselves, and the enemy air is going to lose a bunch of figs chasing them over friendly AA, making the trade even better.

Look at the other options for 2v1 vs sea and you can tell they require some actual investment. TB is way too cheap for how effectively it kills stuff.

grim wraith
#

Saying u just need a better air player is like telling land players on tropical assault you just need better sea player

elfin knot
elfin knot
# pallid mortar This is only relevant if 'dominating sea' is relevant. T2 Boats lose to t2 land ...

The problem that people complain about is that navy can literally only defend itself from t2 air using things that aren't boats. This isn't true in any other lab. They might not have good aa options, but they always have them. Navies only recourse Vs well microed TB is to make so much T1 aa boats that the air player gets bored killing them.
im not sure how that makes sense though, both t1 and t2 sea labs have anti air options that are pretty much as effective as land based ones and I would argue land t2 bot labs do not have an effective anti air option at all. torp bomber is made to be a hard counter vs ships because its the ONLY thing it can hit apart from underwater amphibs.

The people crying about the torp bomber were crying about the liche and will be crying about stiletto when torp bomber gets nerfed to the ground. 2v1 is 2v1 if it hits early there is nothing you can do about it, play defensively with the options available, cant expect to counter the one thing that hard counters you.

thorny fjord
#

Liche is still too effective against naval only tb are even better bc liche isnt as safe

#

And stop making it black and white by calling stuff counter or not counters. We arent playing rps, we want something to PREVENT us from getting fucked over not have it completely destroy the play.

#

Emp bombers are fine imo bc good micro can prevent it, and the opponent still has to kill you. Also it might even be better bc good coordination then lets you get that reclaim where liche and tb just straight up delete it

pallid mortar
raw spear
#

Sounds like we are two camps that understand whats going on (hopefully by now) but one sees it as an issue, the other doesnt

rigid halo
#

I think a MOBLIE SAMSITE T2 boat with like a 2 missile ammo count would be nice(obviously not the same range or dmg). That why at least if better punish planes that are hyper clumped on each other.

burnt matrix
#

This thread can be easily answered kekwlaugh

USE FLAK or GET BETTER AIR PLAYER

#

There's a reason why torpedo planes are a thing to make sure there's a chance to retrive sea if all hopes are lost and to ensure team play is in order idk why you guys want to nerf this

hoary kayak
burnt matrix
#

what why not? is it glitched?

south pasture
#

there is a range extention problem with torp bombers that isnt intended
idk if that has been meantioned here but that issue will be going away at some point

burnt matrix
#

huh odd never had this happen

south pasture
#

you have to use set target to get this range extention to occur\

burnt matrix
#

usually on istimus I kinda overexceed in anti air ships and they kinda never can touch me

hoary kayak
burnt matrix
burnt matrix
#

good air player

languid eagle
#

It does require continuous attention to keep the torp bombers out of range tbf

burnt matrix
#

yeah it's really complex it seems or you need good skills

languid eagle
#

It's not complicated per se, you just can't take your eyes off at all

#

I have fucked up by looking away too many times

#

I am not op

hoary kayak
#

Small price to pay for smashing the lane, tbh.

languid eagle
#

Not as intense as microing a tzar tbh because you don't need to worry about getting dgunned

void solar
south pasture
#

what was the cause of the range extention then?

void solar
#

There's no range extension, that's a misrepresentation.

Set target rather gives you freedom in the angle you approach, easier than attack command

south pasture
#

ah

void solar
#

Which does change the time you spend in close distance, but I wouldn't call it range extension

ivory garden
#

Attack command also doesn't really work for TB as side note. Tends to hit under boats

void solar
#

Wdym w under boats

ivory garden
#

Like if you attack ground out of LOS where a boat is it hits under them. I see 30+ OS gamers doing this all the time. In general it should not be used at all as it is currently

void solar
#

You mean just attack ground?

#

Normal attack command should be fine

#

Getting attack ground to work sounds tricky since there's no way to differentiate if you want to attack smth on the surface (like ship or torp launcher) or bottom (like an amph unit) in that spot

pallid mortar
#

unless you set target or attack an actual unit, the torpedos dont home in on it

#

they home in on the seafloor beneath the point you set/attack

ivory garden
#

Generally folks try to hit boats with it and hit nothing

south pasture
elfin knot
# void solar There's no range extension, that's a misrepresentation. Set target rather gives...

as far as I understand the torp bomber range starts from the momment the bomb hits the water and becomes a torpedo, so the range extension is the range it travels from being dropped until it reaches the water as well as if the target moves away but stays in sight range the torpedo still tracks it. Its very rare situations where the max range can be achieved though. Why cant we just try -100 range and see how it goes. Would be helpful to add it with easily selectable option like candidate release unit pack or smth

grim wraith
void solar
#

He's talking of just attack ground not normal attack

golden plover
#

Attack ground hits the seabed; which nothing is near

rigid halo
burnt matrix
pearl glade
grim wraith
pearl glade
#

big case of torpedo bomber being op on isthimus is 2 AFK spots and water that is perfect for it to just obliterate boats

grim wraith
#

green straits? you mean rock jungle?

pearl glade
grim wraith
#

on a lot of the river maps (erobos lakes and 8 horses) sea is too poverty anyways

#

but t1 navy is OP anyways so it feels imba

pearl glade
#

Glacial gaps with 3v3 sea is a map not rly torpedo friendly, mainly due to how water is shaped there and amount of rocks in it

grim wraith
#

no way

pearl glade
#

thought another spot where torps are op is tropical assault and 2 other copies

grim wraith
#

you can take some cover in the bottom area

pearl glade
grim wraith
#

but you can't simply have no ships in the main passage

pearl glade
#

and land is too close to water, nowhere to manevour outside AA range

grim wraith
#

see this game i have just ageo and some winds and I'm able to kill prolly over a dozen battleships with just friendly aa ships and 2 battleships

pearl glade
#

that, is kind of the point i am making

#

ishimus map and meta deisgn is super catered to torpedo bomber being op

grim wraith
#

they should have just retreated to their base. But lol that's dumb. basically 400metal torp bomber has bigger range and burst than battleships

#

if the battlefield area is smaller you can make mercury closer to your forces yeh

pearl glade
pearl glade
grim wraith
#

okay, look at failed negotations

#

if navy doesn't dominate early it's a huge travel time you can't bring a mercury with you

pearl glade
grim wraith
#

#1295107209583263785 message

grim wraith
#

all the defender needs is 2 battleship and aa ships

#

issue is against large ships, torps can pay for themself in less than 2 shots

#

with friendly aa you can solve problem of enemy t2 figs killing for free

#

Ways of helping the sea:
Platypus: pretty weak against ships except with surrounding isolated ships. Not ideal in a head up fight, better for harrassment and catching stray t2 utility ships. countered by t2 fast ships
Rolling bombs: very good for stalling/defense, hard to deal with. counters plats and ducks. countered by spread out cruisers and t2 torps w/ sonar
Ducks: situational, decent for buying time on defense but overcosted. 9500e more energy than a torp bomber lol. Too slow on the offensive imo, tho can have a surprise factor. Weak to torp bombers and rolling bombs

elfin knot
# grim wraith but you can't simply have no ships in the main passage

you traded for free when the t1 aa ships were on the red line coz they too far from shore when they moved to the green line, you did not land a single torp and lost 1-2 torps every try. That game is a bad example of anything as it was 1v1 air into 2v3 air into 3v1 air for majority of the game plus you did get a mercury on your geo as well very early. The north sea eventually still won ALONE vs all you peeps interveening and south sea was a clinic on how to 4v1 an average sea player.

Chronos_replay.jpg
elfin knot
grim wraith
#

top sea was a meme, low os player, made more hover aa than the flag ship was worth

#

do i have to post the exact video or are you gonna just cherry pick and misrepresent

elfin knot
# grim wraith it was not 4v1 bottom sea stop blantantly lying

check replay, you came in to help blue with pretty much no air interference, ur air bombed his fusions and ur eco boosted his flagship with his air cons. I count 4 and the only help ur opponent received was ageo after all his e was bombed to dust and even that was recalaimed soon after

grim wraith
#

who cares about the flag

#

we looking at what killed what, not the end result of the sea

elfin knot
#

not to mention neither of the seas were good players.

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

this is just muddying up the waters with the exact player skills

#

red (air_china) had figs but couldn't "instantly" kill my torps

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

he said himself he played like shit

#

he wasn't commiting that much to the sea he was building afus while i was sniping

#

I'll review it again

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

i'm not arguing with defensive mercury and what happened top sea

elfin knot
#

it was basically both ecos went air so was 2v2 and then u went air for torps, so you got ur torps with minimal investment (im still surprised how you didnt just got com walked coz u had absolutely nothing to stop it). And you stayed air for the whole game after that, both ecos went land and xthrawn as front went air a s well so it was 3v1 air for majority of the game

grim wraith
#

it didn't matter there were aa boats

#

no matter how many figs he have it'd be negative trade
assuming equal micro

elfin knot
elfin knot
grim wraith
#

cause rerory was way behind and he was greeding on top of it

elfin knot
grim wraith
#

yeah so basically he was playing with half a navy strength and my position was semi crippled for the time period because of navy on my door
more like 1/2 a navy and 1/2 an air

#

so the smarter thing to do currently is you just greed at home with a mercury eh?

#

basically the only approach is to turtle up and greed, when you do push try and surprise end a fight quickly against their base

#

rolling sea battles in the open sea are dominated by the air, sea is just a support role for the torps

elfin knot
raw spear
#

It really doesnt seem like navy cant handle itself, even if its t1 aa spam for a while. Theres gigalots of t1 spam on land, even t1 aabot spam to counter air. Navy has that. Most of described scenarios also include more players ganging on one or two.

Torp is a waste of in icon in build menu if it cant do what it does

thorny fjord
thorny fjord
raw spear
#

If theres already ways to handle it, but you still nerf the unit with singular purpose, sure its pretty close to the edge of uselesness

thorny fjord
#

there arent ways to handle it as long as theres a navy player

#

if there was a unit that could do to land what the tb does to sea it wouldnt last a week

raw spear
thorny fjord
#

every 2v1 has OPTIONS except for tb

#

the tb option is to leave the sea

grim wraith
thorny fjord
#

which is not an option if your eco is mostly in the sea AND the sea can bombard ur land base

grim wraith
#

now you say, just don't play map with any open field?

#

saying 2v1 is reducing it to all the same thing

#

I think the shredder is crazy strong, easy to shut out air, though you have to make it in advance and plp tend to lose it

raw spear
#

Look its still 2v1. On lane you might just die but here you can eco on land. Its really some kind of a tunnel vision to think sea needs to 1v2 and stay in sea

thorny fjord
#

wdym eco on land

raw spear
#

No trolling

thorny fjord
#

ur land dies, ur teammates die, the opponent get a lot of space

raw spear
#

You skipped some 15min here tho

thorny fjord
#

15 mins is VERY long to swap to bombarding land

#

more like 2-5 depending on the phase

#

could be less than 1 if navy was already t2

grim wraith
#

normal theory vs double air on a ground map is to

#

make aa, then mobile aa and go for ground push right?

#

torp bomber is mostly dealt with by figs. when you go double air you gurantee air superiority, while surpressing the enemy navy player

#

they can't even try to push because of the threat of torp bombers in response to a push

thorny fjord
#

yes, it takes a few minutes while spamming to get some mobile aa to the front to keep pushing, and static aa is an actual option on land

grim wraith
#

so while normally double air would put you -1 player down on the land push

elfin knot
#

why cant we just agree on -100 range for torp bombers and see how it goes from there? a lot of uselss arguing going on here (myself included).

raw spear
#

Why even compare it to land strat? If theres a counter, which t1 aa plus t2 navy is, no need to further argue why sea isnt exactly like land

#

Agree justa

grim wraith
#

because people don't even understand why it's even broken

#

i dunno it's some mind bending abstract logic that makes it hard to understand

elfin knot
pearl glade
thorny fjord
#

oh so its fine to have a unit in the game which can make a map a complete pain in the ass to play?

raw spear
pearl glade
#

Scout ship spam, AA hovers

thorny fjord
#

congrats ur now dying to navy

raw spear
#

Stop leaking ticks into this debate

grim wraith
#

Video demo with jammer vs t1 and t2 aa ships #1295107209583263785 message
Strategy using ally anti air ships and battleships to use torps profitably despite any amount of enemy figs: #1295107209583263785 message
Anglers have more burst per cost than SHARPSHOOTERS: #1295107209583263785 message

pearl glade
pearl glade
#

You are not supposed to win a 1v2 alone

thorny fjord
#

and now navy is completely decided by the air players

grim wraith
pearl glade
#

Especially if its only 5 of them

grim wraith
#

why does set target matter? it's not cost effective im pretty sure

thorny fjord
#

too bad the tb launch from so far away that their fig wall stops u

grim wraith
#

250 dmg a shot takes like 8 shots to kill

#

i've done seaplane gaming i know every plane in that lab

pearl glade
grim wraith
#

it's theorycrafting

#

you might get them once but they just add 3-4 t2 figs
and they kill your figs 1 hit, long before you kill torps

pearl glade
grim wraith
#

the wierd thing is that t1 figs do around 125, t1.5 figs about 225(?), t2 figs do 500 damage a shot

pearl glade
#

Again, 2 ppl investing M into sea Should beat one

pure flame
#

...

grim wraith
#

okay put it this way

#

if I had 3 fusions sea economy in a 1v1 scenario vs equal enemy, doing everything myself

#

i would just go torp bomber with minor battleship and aa support
it's just the dominant comp kek

#

super high burst units, spybots tend to punish high hp expensive units

#

when that unit is affordable, hyper mobile, and can only be shot at by dedicated aa (besides t2 fig), as navy you just are punished for fielding big ships

#

The puffin is the t1.5 version, has MUCH less burst and less effective range. Why is it still crazy good? because it's reasonably tanky and can hit everywhere that's exposed

#

coms, subs, underwater mexes, even naval eco

#

power of mobility

pure flame
#

Hm puffin is prolly fine as it attacks by hovering like gunships

grim wraith
#

it still actually has an overrange mechanic but the missile has a time out limit which means you have to actually eyeball guage

#

if you fire at true max range and/or enemy ships run away the torp times out

#

and the burst is much lower, so they take time to kill high hp frigates

pure flame
#

Thats kinda cool mechanic, tho I imagine its unintuitive to recognize for players

grim wraith
#

exactly

#

there is a neat counterplay game but it's a pretty uninuitive mechanic and the missiles are not very visible

#

and it can be frustating if you try to max range with set target but that makes your missiles dud

pure flame
#

Well to that end perhaps we can extend the tweaks to Torpedo bombers into puffins also, if the TB tweaks work

supple wren
grim wraith
#

you could make it so that torps launched at max overrange still hit but fast ships can time them out by running away

#

that is an option but it's a behaviour change -- should be explored only after number changes (i'm neutral, more concerned with the high burst / range currently)

grim wraith
# supple wren <@772995244944916531>

for context, literally no one does this (puffin overranging or trying to time them out by running away)
it's an unknown micro with not that big gain

supple wren
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Doesn't look nearly as if usable. I bet you would have much less range

grim wraith
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puffin has less range, if it had more torpedo life it could mostly kite skater range aa

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with the limited life it's like iuuno another 50 range less than that

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rather challenging

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puffin is more agile than angler so you can pull back the weak ones. the only downside to puffin is it's BP cost is incredibly high

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14800 BP

late temple
grim wraith
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realism = units should run out of ammo
planes shouldn't fly in space, no sound in space

south pasture
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Drone carriers for Armada and cortex have been rejected by the gdt

grim wraith
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if we had realism air planes should crash when they bump into each other

remote idol
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if realism happens to align with good gameplay its usually the best solution because its the most intuitive

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not saying it usually aligns

grim wraith
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there's gameplay conventions that plp expect that are not actually realistic

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all enemy dropping loot

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many games are stylized rather than appearing more realistic

late temple
# grim wraith realism != good game design

Realism isn't necessarily good, I agree, but it's also not necessarily bad, either.

Usually some or many realistic aspects are used to create some fundamental understanding. Like, boats float on water and can more easily transport big dakka than land vehicles.

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Give T2 an aircraft carrier with a mini screamer (long range long cool down for sniping air). >_>"

formal condor
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once again i give an extremely dumb suggestion, naval chainsaw

raw spear
golden plover
# formal condor once again i give an extremely dumb suggestion, naval chainsaw

I've made one via tweaks, not sure anyones used it in a real lobby tho - these have not been given "sea unit" treatment, e.g. increased metalcost & hp. They are literally just Chainsaws which are added to naval cons and float on water.

TweakUnits

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

pearl glade
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locked behind T2 seacon

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So T2 air can still obliterate T1 sea, but T2 should have counters for it, as it should be

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Tho is is still mainly an isthimus issue due to map design.

thorny fjord
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also tb usually target the units not the eco, so i am curious if the static pans out well

pearl glade
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especially that you can even micro it with settarget onto TBs if they bring a fighter escort

golden plover
pearl glade
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Issue is that on isthimus (and bottom hellas sea) there is no spot to make it to protect your fleet

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all other navy premier maps you can creep it along land push/put on islands that exist with T2 aircon/T2 con drop

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by other navy maps i mean Pinch point and its clones, Red river estuary, Glacial gaps

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not the river ones, cause they all end in t1 sea anyway

golden plover
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rivers are typically too narrow for torpbombrs to be a problem mostly because of the grav issue of them dropping so early which is the same issue as we see in open see for effective over-range

pearl glade
golden plover
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so fixing grav hopefully will make them more usable near land masses, and reduce over-range slightly

pearl glade
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that's why 8 horses or rock jungle are not an issue too

thorny fjord
grim wraith
golden plover
grim wraith
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uh u just come in from teh front

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it's like a choke point, you can't attack from the cliff
not rocket science

grim wraith
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Oh you mean you can't just attack move them

misty bone
# pearl glade Tho is is still mainly an isthimus issue due to map design.

This I actually disagree with, there are plenty of maps where it's a bigger issue than isthmus (anything with a wider more open sea) they just aren't played too frequently especially at a high level since most players dislike sea gameplay.

On isthmus you at least have shorelines/islands relatively close. There are maps where you're much further from any viable land to use as a blocker.

elfin knot
remote idol
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rushing a screamer to counter a rushed nuke bomber is allso something i dont think would ever happen

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they are pretty expensive afterall

grim wraith
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Screamer and all aa better the more compact the map

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It's why Hellas Basin so linear map, only mid base really matters u can lose all the back bases

elfin knot
remote idol
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but i guess youre not quite as suicidal when using the torp bombers compared to liche making long range AA more important

grim wraith
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Angler actually does it's value in dmg in one shot vs an arm battleship

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Vs subs too if it's the minimal amount

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Yeah liche is more glass, heavy metal cost, and does have the counter play of pre-splitting your army

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Although it can hit land too, different unit.

grim wraith
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how much it costs for 1 t2 scout plane + enough anglers to 1 shot a battleship (note: dreadnaught is definitely underpowered, good guns but too low hp)

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plp don't realize battleships cost a fk ton

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ofc there is enemy t2 figs, but how long does it typically take for your air player to arrive to shruikens in your games plp
it's not in <5 seconds, more like 10+ seconds

ivory garden
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Are you saying this is good value that air player can kill a battleship with 8 TB? More? Less?

grim wraith
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in one shot.

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yes it's good value

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even if your torps get caught immediately, it's not great, but they still had tangible impact

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which is less risk then runbys/drops/marauder raids/gunships

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it's common for them to get zero value and leave reclaim in their fail case

raw spear
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I dont think pure M cost is right way to argue tho, because sea M cost is kind of inflated. If you kill 3k M on land, the lane is probably won, but if you snipe 1 battleship of 3k M, its not as impactful in comparison. I think Air-to-navy weaponry has to do more dmg to have same impact

grim wraith
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bots are higher on bp cost and e cost
it's like killing 3 bulls?

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i'd say it depends on how much income the navy player has on that map, versus how much a backliner can typically greed (depends on their opponent / map)

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straights is a bit less common in that the air position is pretty safe and plp get rapid t2 and go directly to t2 often. on rotato t1 bombing is more common

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like old straights navy had an insane amount of metal, current straights they still have quite a bit

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but are you balancing it based on navy player spawns should have significantly more metal than other positions?

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in the pre-t2 air phase the navy player can try and bully their opponent and rez ships

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if your teammate is feeding the enemy which happens a fair bit, that can lead to your crazy strong navy opponent

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often they are so behind killing 1-2 battleships won't win the lane

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even though that's a huge swing in closer skil games

ivory garden
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So is this a SI issue or a wider balance issue?

grim wraith
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So there are different ways of affecting the sea: rolling bombs, platypus, ducks, sneaking a lab and pumping subs, titans/t3 hover

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in order to use torps you need t2 air lab (we'll ommit the air control / playing around friendly aa argument for now)

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maps/metas where t1 bombing is common (rotato/os3 games) would tend to delay the t2 air lab. But t2 air lab is always an option (or double air making the torps) for any player if they have 1500e+, enough metal, and some space.

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For the most part torps are just as effective no matter the timestamp
The only time they start to fall off is late game where people have money to put mercuries everywhere and replace anything you could kill.

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We see torp planes used on maps where:
-the sea is still contested after 12-15 minutes (Eight Horses, Mariposa sea is over, Tempest game is usually is over)
-the sea is worth fighting for (ships can kill important stuff, expose a large bombing or amphib angle)

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I suspect rotatos think that torp bombers are fine because they are not used frequently on rotato maps, because the above situations don't arise much on those maps. But niche does not mean not overpowered. Puffins are a niche unit, but on full-sea maps like Barrier/Mariposa, puffins and air control are broken the moment you can tech to them. Literally air dominance becomes everything since t1 naval aa is mediocre vs seaplanes and the seaplanes can jump to attack anywhere.

pearl glade
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and having a stable os lobby that'd play anything that aint isthimus and has navy is rare af

grim wraith
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Categorizing the navy map types
-One river maps (Eight Horses, Rock Jungle)
-Multiple rivers (Red River Esturary, Seven Rivers)
-Central Water Feature (Salmakki, Erobos Lakes, Tempest)
-Small Lake (Salmakki, Ascendancy)
-Two Sea maps (Surpreme Isthmus, Hellas Basin)
-O or H shape maps (Failed Negotiation, Tropical Assault, Mariposa Island)
-Large Sea Map (Serene Caldera, Barrier Reef)
-Land + Sea side by side (Glacial Gap)

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Currently T1 navy is OP vs t1 land. On 1 river maps, sea can be poverty but still super strong if it can hold water crossings and cut off enemy players (Eight Horses).
Central River (Rock Jungle), Multiple Rivers, are borderline unplayable from a land perspective. Sea is so powerful since it can either reach so many places or can transition to attack either side after winning. Central Water maps have to be limited to very small lakes (Salmakki) to have good Sea:Land balance.

Note, there are still maps where navy is weak/slow: On Mariposa Island, sea can be easily defended at the corner chokes by similiar skill players. Combined with the poor tidal, Sea is lower impact than the mid land positions. On Sulphur Springs, the travel distance is way too much, land is much faster, so the meta is to forgo combat ships and rush seaplanes to impact land.

burnt matrix
grim wraith
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anyways you'd expect to see torps on these maps
-Two Sea maps (Surpreme Isthmus, Hellas Basin)
-O or H shape maps (Failed Negotiation, Tropical Assault, Mariposa Island)
-Large Sea Map (Serene Caldera, Barrier Reef)
-Land + Sea side by side (Glacial Gap)
and Tempest
but they could be used in any river map too if the river has any width

burnt matrix
# grim wraith I'm just noting the context

Don't ask for to much. I can see the potential nerf towards torps do I think it's needed not at all because this video you showed takes alot of micro attempts and you will lose them in the meanwhile you cannot micro for ever and you will eventuelly even overflow if you do this enabling the other air player to be ahead

grim wraith
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yes it shows ideal micro, i'm not an air player my torp micro not the best

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hitting aa ships that are on radar is not so difficult

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apm is a cost too, but If I'm killing 1k or more of ships with each shot it can be worth the trouble

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you can do your macro then come back to torp bomber

burnt matrix
# grim wraith hitting aa ships that are on radar is not so difficult

ok so again I ask you to keep this discussion to only 1 nerf and not rebalancing the whole game get it. Navy is already in a weird spot, people want to nerf flagships and having it in the ambious t3 building, and I already think navy is very costly to begin with so there's that and now this.

grim wraith
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i'm just noting the t1 navy is OP, not saying go fix it in this thread

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cause people will say WAH NAVY IS SO STRONG why you want to nerf torps. yes we know t1 navy is op

burnt matrix
burnt matrix
grim wraith
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straights has 2 seas which is good for torps. anyways to cut to the chase, yes torps are useable and at least equally strong on straights on other maps with big seas

grim wraith
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anyways, torps are most oppressive vs t2 ships since they are expensive and eat the full 1500 dmg

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torps tend to overkill t1 ships and plus it's t2 vs t1 so it's not so egregious

burnt matrix
grim wraith
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shruiken are pretty good too, but yeah on map with a lot of sea I think players will try to work to t2 air soon if practical

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since torps so effective at dominating sea

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Main counters to Torp bomber:
-Sea player is ahead + 10-25 plats from ally (this mostly works 15m or earlier, before the enemy sea player can get stable enough)
-T2 fig, getting air superiority
-Jammer + AA Ship (Not a counter but makes the torp micro very difficult unless they Juno or hold vision somehow)
-Long Range Anti-Air + defend and greed (only works on the defense usually)

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Torp bombers are extremely good on large sea maps because they can attack anywhere, clean up raids / subs, kill rez subs, coms underwater, buildings, etc

burnt matrix
grim wraith
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and building enough aa in multiple locations gets prohibitly expensive

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The only counter to them mobile is t2 figs

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this leads to The Double Air OP Problem, larger sea maps being dominated by double or triple air

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if you have air control, you have freedom to torp where you want. Freedom to gunship, nuke bomber, use transport is valuable too

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and you don't have to make heavy aa everywhere

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Air is always going to be proportionately more powerful on larger maps, but given that torps beat or equal aa ships per cost, it's not even close on large maps.

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torps would probably have to be majorly nerfed in order for a map like serene caldera to be competitive

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My suggestion would be to buff currently underpowered ways of interacting with sea (ducks, t1, t3 hovers, NON-global options). Fixing OP t1 navy ships should help too.

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Also buff t1 AA hovers

burnt matrix
# grim wraith Also buff t1 AA hovers

Do people even use those? man I rarely see hover gameplay action. usually if someone rushes me with hovers they're already dead some grunts are enough to kill em all

grim wraith
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#1259191562827726868 message

burnt matrix