#Suggestion to Change the BAR Eco Meta

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

stray goblet
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E is the target E

chilly atlas
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Well, you can, but it's a wholesale switch to solars or similar until the stall is over

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The point I'm making is that maybe it's not desirable for one to be able to almost completely back out wind risk without actually building non-wond E production

stray goblet
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but if you alraedy have 30 wind turbines and that will be hugely rewarded in 4 games out of 5, then it doesn't really matter that you can build some solars in the fifth game

chilly atlas
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(or maybe it is, idk, it probably just doesn't matter that much since most of the time everyone suffers the same - and because wind usually is better everyone does it by default and therefore suffers the same)

because wind is better 4/5 times wind is the correct answer if you want to win games, everyone does it, and is rewarded/punished the same.

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It's on the maps where wind is more marginal that this is a bigger issue probably

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Since there's more likely to be people who do solar only instead of wind and therefore both players end up with very different eco outcomes relative to eachother

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(either wind culrushing solar or vice-versa)

stray goblet
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Yeah it's not a huge deal I just think that it could be better and I think it's not even that difficult to make it better.

ember bobcat
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have you considered that perhaps a pure wind build is not optimal then? if its super high variance and you all in on pure volatile based economy its probably user error

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all high os players heavily prioritize wind over solars making them more reliable would further push them as the dominate e gen source

sharp fog
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+40% more e than expected only helps you maybe like 10-15% if you are converting it (it can be more if you have a perfect e dump)
but having -40% less e than expected can slow you down by 30 seconds which really screws you by 40%

stray goblet
stray goblet
ember bobcat
sharp fog
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if wind reliably goes up and down i think estorage becomes too op

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consistently unreliability is like pile shuffling your deck

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xD

stray goblet
ember bobcat
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yes and make it more reliable

sharp fog
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the super high wind games and wind from hell games are part of rng

stray goblet
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okay, thanks for the discussion

stray goblet
sharp fog
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that's fair

stray goblet
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And also, super high wind for 5 minutes is fun, and wind from hell for 5 minutes is also fun. This is fine. The same for 10 minutes is not fine in my opinion.

shut gyro
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an annoying part for me is that if wind deviates too far from expectation over a long period of time the "suboptimal" play gets rewarded pepeomg

wraith mesa
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Perhaps ASolars should be thought of as T1.5 energy production. After all, you need a T1 Con to build them. They provide a more predictable source of energy than wind, even if it is slightly less metal efficient than pure wind scaling on paper.

subtle wolf
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yea it does, with slightly overkilling wind you deplete slower and you come back up online earlier, the wind doesnt instantly go from maximum speed to lowest speed, and if the lowest speed is not 0, you still produce a little bit more when wind is fully crashed, meaning your storage depletes a very little slower.

sharp fog
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yeah but without a full estorage you have around 1100 capacity which is nothing

subtle wolf
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yea. you should just overkill your energy production slightly before considering the next e storage

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going from 1k e storage to 7k is big, but the 2nd e storage is alot less impactful compared to overkilling wind a bit more

sharp fog
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yeh

subtle wolf
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and the 3rd one and so on

sharp fog
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i find 2nd estorage usually is not needed for most builds

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if you are playing adaptively

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unless its high wind map and you cross say 40 winds

subtle wolf
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up to 3 e storage is very clean on most maps, after which, you would rather have fusion than energy storage to deal with periods of low wind speed.

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assuming fusion is more efficient than the minimum wind speed which is almost always the case

chilly atlas
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The point of wind is to very efficient, but run the risk of getting screwed. You can significantly mitigate that risk by building storage, but if storage conpletely eliminated the risk of wind being worse than solar in down times then solar would be a bit pointless

subtle wolf
# chilly atlas The point of wind is to very efficient, but run the risk of getting screwed. You...

1 player can go with very few wind and no storage, then be rewarded with maximum wind speed for the rest of the game and never e stall

meanwhile another player can make a few solar and storages to alleviate the risk and then it never crash, they will have less metal than the other player to expand or make army with.

a player can decide to air swap, if wind crash before they have bombers out they will struggle, if it crash after they have bombers, during the bombing run, its devastating blow to the other player.

if I all in my vehicle army into your base and you are left with 1k metal on the ground after the fact, if wind is very high you can ressurect the units and have a massive counter attack. if wind is very low you can only eat it and hope to stabilize.

winged dew
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Lets say I start with a few Solars, few winds and few asolars and it gives me just enough E to fuel T2 transition. Now I want to spend metal on units but I need some more energy for things like Juno, AN etc. I don't want to get the fusion because it's a step jump and I want to have the smoothest scaling curve possible (I don't care about efficiency, I treat it as kind of exercise). Do I scale with asolar or wind? My understanding is that asolar is better bp wise, so it's faster when I have low BP. But then I can afford more BP so should I switch to winds? Or it's the other way around. In general I want to focus on spending my metal effectively (having just enough e to spend metal from mexes, no converting).
What are opinions there, cause I kinda lost track of what are the arguments both ways

stray goblet
# winged dew Lets say I start with a few Solars, few winds and few asolars and it gives me ju...

I think you shouldn't scale with ASolar. That can only beat the con turret+winds and EStorage+winds options. It's perfectly fine or even the best to build one when you have E and barely any metal because the other options would be delayed, but scaling with ASolar for an extended period of time is suboptimal on wind maps.

Con turret + wind scaling is great if you don't need more E for a while and especially if you want to scale BP as well. A con turret and a bot con building ~10 wind turbines can greatly increase your E after about 90 seconds. Just don't do this if you need E now.

Slow scaling E earlier is often the most effective. Like, use the T1 con you used to build the T2 lab to build some wind turbines after it finished the T2 lab, and build a wind or two occasionally with the com, or get another con to do that. You can't do this well as an Eco player because you would delay the T2 mexes but some scaling is certainly possible. Just a note: I've made that second build with armada because the Butler is stupidly op doing this early scaling and it's not even slow.

And basic solars should be a good option when you can't really spend your metal because you don't have enough E. At the same time, the E generation of twitchers and cons shouldn't be ignored either. So if you build a con turret and then float a bit of metal because you don't have enough E, then the metal efficiency of the con turret was useless and in fact made your build inefficient - while a twitcher would give you 15E/s.

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So I'm pretty sure I didn't answer that question at all...
I don't think it's possible though, because it depends on the circumstances and on the units you're planning to make.
I'm pretty sure that in most games, the most effective thing to do is to pretty much to use all the options when they are the best. Like, build some extra wind turbines early, build some in range of the con turrets, build another con turret in range of some of the T2 mexes and build some wind turbines there as well, get a T1 con to build winds very soon, make twitchers/cons and make some solars with a twitcher or com as well. And also make an ASolar too if the circumstances allow it.

stray goblet
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I think the slow scaling can be misunderstood. It's not about being slow, it's just about scaling early but in practice you can't scale early and fast both (or you shouldn't). It's like, if you want E at minute 7, then 1 extra wind turbine built at minute 1 will get you about 4300 E. But if you build a con turret and start building 10 wind turbines at 5:30, then that will get you like 1000 E at minute 7 (depending on how quickly you build the con turret).
People think that the wind turbine is efficient because a shitty spreadsheet says so, but it should be clear that the efficiency mainly depends on the time.

sharp fog
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yeah all e production depnds on how early you can finish it

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one thing I didn't calc was... when you build a con turret, obv it returns it's bp cost 22 seconds after you finish it

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but if you build winds, but at what point do you break even on E produced

stray goblet
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all production depends on how early you can finish it. The value of a grunt also depends on time, and the value of mexes as well

sharp fog
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as in, how longer does con turret --> winds take to catch up in energy to just winds

stray goblet
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depends on how quickly you build the con turret and how many wind turbines you build

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probably whatever the timing of these, you probably won't have any extre E under 60 seconds

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and it's almost pointless to calculate it because in practice, that con turret will probably be in range of something else. Lab, or a couple of mexes you want to upgrade, etc.

sharp fog
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you can area repair it on your winds

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it's good to know for theoritical purposes

winged dew
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My main thing is how to get to ~800 energy income the fastest way as eco, while upgrading the mexes, giving the cons, making units as needed + having solid buildpower

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I seem to lack on of these each time - either T2 stuff is dealyed, or I run out of energy or I have awkward moments of floating resources with not enough bp

sharp fog
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rotato or glitters?

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yes this is trickier than it sounds

winged dew
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glitters

sharp fog
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glitters has an annoying wind, if you aren't getting mega fed, then it can very challenging to do this

winged dew
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Let's say I make T2 lab and first con + 2 mexes. If ppl send metal I can do it ez with commander + con + con turret. If ppl don't send metal I will stall on m at like 70% so i'd rather blow the com. But then I have metal but no bp to spend it. But if I add 1 con turret while building lab it's just cursed.

sharp fog
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basically every con you make drains you 6k energy

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every con is 75% an amex in energy, or 2 nanos

winged dew
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The worst is if wind is bad and no1 overflos and no1 has spare energy. Then suddenly 10 solars is required which just takes too much time

sharp fog
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you should blow com on techer and suck with con turret

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personally i make 2 solar and 1 asolar

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if wind is good i make just winds into 1 asolar (1 estorage always)

winged dew
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it's still not enough bp, with no commander i need 2 con turrets and a con at least

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The most annoying thing is that it's kinda 50/50, it either all go smoothly or it's a stall at some point and it's hard for me to pinpoint when and why it happens

stray goblet
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Yeah I know how hard to get that E. I know this doesn't help, but it was no accident that I suggested that some players should pay with early wind turbines. That would make everything so much smoother

sharp fog
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I mean I could do the same thing if I knew I would get 600 m overboost

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I would just make 3 asolars

winged dew
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i always do like 4 solars into ~6 turbines. Recently i added 2 asolars into lab after these. Before I just kept making winds and storage

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Yeah i guess not being sure if I will get metal is the worst but can't expect ppl to declare in advance

sharp fog
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you just ping them

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it's free 5 os or more

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just pinging people for resources

winged dew
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i do it obv but still, not always works

sharp fog
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I don't do it so much that's why I'm lower

winged dew
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i locate person with the most metal and just ping them to give me metal xd

sharp fog
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it's just annoying to check and ping 4+ people

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yeah

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basically resource beg

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absurdly op

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I just don't find beg interesting -- i find balancing the econ precisely to be interesting

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if you have plenty of metal and you know that ahead of time, it's no longer a challenge

stray goblet
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when I was doing the solo eco practice games without teammates, the solution was just a few additional wind turbines and also 1-2 converters. Maybe you could try that. If you can't be sure that they will pay and you can't be sure that you will have E, just get 3-4 more wind turbines early. If you would overflow, you could build either an additioanl E storage or 1-2 conveters. This would make the timings a bit worse when they pay, but it wouldn't ruin you if they don't

shut gyro
winged dew
stray goblet
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I mean. 4 wind turbines payment does get the team like 2000 extra metal. But I don't think you can convince the players, I tried

winged dew
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"Mighty Commander, whose footsteps turn battlefields into scrap yards — your brilliance is so blinding, even the wrecks you leave behind salute you. Might I, a humble speck of dust, receive a flake of your glorious excess metal?"

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gotta keybind it

winged dew
stray goblet
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and if you get a friend to do that, pay with wind turbines. Then that's just obviously co-op which we don't like

shut gyro
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os shop open, 3 wind = + 1 os

sharp fog
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Adjucator. We require more minerals.

winged dew
shut gyro
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thankfully we have the disable custom widgets option to prevent such unfair advantages

stray goblet
blazing plover
winged dew
stray goblet
winged dew
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Coming back to topic, maybe I should make 2 more cons instead of nano 7346pepehmmm 14 e production, a little bit less bp for 30 metal, 300 energy

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(I like this learning opportunity, I almost can join max 35os lobbies again)

blazing plover
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Nano will always be better than cons in a specific location it covers

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First con takes two mexes, second takes the 3rd, third con build two conturrets. Then the first two cons come back and start spamming winds in conturrets range, while the third starts the T2 lab. Commander reclaims the T1 lab, makes E-storage and 3-6 converters (dep. on how much energy is leaking from others). Then sac the comm to complete the T2 lab.

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Everything you do lies in a narrow range of conturrets, allowing you to instantly shift focus in assisting what is more important without their BP having to walk anywhere.

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2-3 Asolars you'd need together with completed Amexes, since the available metal will also escalate energy demand.

tough sequoia
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This is much better divine

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And obviously commander never idles

winged dew
tired perch
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why is 5mex better than 6 mex?

stray goblet
# tired perch why is 5mex better than 6 mex?

About 50 metal worse than the 6 mex start but much earlier lab which can protect against an early raid.
And also, the best 6 mex start is from a corner mex and the team won't look kindly at you, they might even steal the eco spot.

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I think the 6 mex start is only better if you can get a con from the corner player, or you have a co-op build in mind and you need the T2 lab near the teammate / closer to the front.

tired perch
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oh only that

stray goblet
tired perch
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in high os lobby none of those are an issue

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i was doing 6 mex for many games and never faced a problem

stray goblet
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in high os lobby I think there are better, more co-op builds, you know the battery kinds

tired perch
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yeah this is....high os roleplay lobbies...its weird xD

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if you do coop too well u stir too much shit and get banned

stray goblet
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yeah, my advice about the many mex starts, and about the wind turbine payments, etc. these are essentially co-op light

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if you pay with more wind turbines and earlier and you don't say that is a payment for T2. Then that is just a shitty co-op build

tired perch
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best thing about the new commander energy generation proposal is that you can make straight 4 mexes before you need a solar 🙂

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with some walking ofc

stray goblet
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I still don't know what is in that proposal. I'm sure it will ruin my perfect early builds

tired perch
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it ruins everything but its super fun at the same time xD

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so much more is possible

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com is +30 e generation

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and labs are cheaper and get 50% more bp

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its all a significant mex walking buff

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but it also means you need more energy genration faster once you make the lab

stray goblet
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It was hard to convince people that finishing the lab with a full E bar is the best because we can assist the first con and earlier con = more BP than we lose by the later lab. Now that players started doing this, they change the lab's bp and this might not be true anymore.

winged dew
stray goblet
# winged dew https://gist.github.com/Mitvit/3490f13ff7f272cb365c99e75d8e9ca8

Thanks.
T1 Mex: +41% hp
It will be much harder to harass the enemy with scouts. I don't like this one but I'm sure we will get used to it.

T1 turrets: -10% buildtime
This is a nerf of the exploiter 😦 The exploiter should be buffed a bit then. (or the exploiter is a T1 turret as well?)

Commander: 25 -> 30 energymake
So both the 2 and the 3 solar vehicle starts will be bad. Neither will be optimal... (maybe the 2 solar start will be good enough because of the lab's E cost change)

tough sequoia
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Another reason is, air really benefits from con

tired perch
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you just get more metal which means you get to keep commander alive longer which gives you even more metal

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you probably make up most of the lost time on lab by building solars instead of wind

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and faster t2 lab probably benefits the team more overall than air getting the con faster

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this is all me eyeballing stuff tho no facts xD

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also if I assume that air players optimize builds well I would say they would benefit more from building their own con to ensure the timing is the same every game and structure their build around that and its gonna be way better

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just because its pre-planned instead of ad-hoc

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and that air con is way better at making winds later on

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than a botcon

stray goblet
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I don't remember exactly the metal values, but it's something like, 5 mex start is ~320 more metal than the 3 mex start, and 6 mexes start is about 370 more. That 50 metal difference can only mean ~4 seconds earlier T2 cons. That just usually doesn't worth it in my opinion. Mainly because of the lost E production.
But if you co-op and get a con from the corner player, then E is less of an issue because you don't build your own T1 lab, then the 6 mex start is great.

blazing plover
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That's why I usually go 3mex. It just doesnt worth the energy loss

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if there would be less walk time, sure, but there probably no map that has that.

stray goblet
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That's 320 lost metal, about 25 seconds. The 3 mex start is I think only good if you also convert, and you probably have to sacrifice the commander. That's fine, just a different build

blazing plover
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Well its not lost, its just traded for earlier energy

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since you dont need to take a single step before you get the first wind/solar

tired perch
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my logic is

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that following up the lab with pure solar after the 6 mex opening instead of wind should "reclaim" some of the lost e generation

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and you can easily afford them with the extra metal

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or at least enough soalrs to quickly produce the cons

stray goblet
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yeah but you can (and absolutely should) start with solars even if you start with 3 mexes

blazing plover
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I wonder. It would depend on the wind, and the layout of the base may cause offsets. Like, surely you will get E from solar, but then how are you going to use their metal? Reclaim them and be left with no E generation whatsoever? Wait until you also get some wind going? It's all very convoluted, so I personally were unable to make it work better than 3mex, which is much more straightforward.

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Although if your plan is to keep the Com, that might be the better build.

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But then you also can only partially reclaim the com and rez it over time 😄 But that works better on Isthmust coz multiple rezbots is well justified.

tired perch
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the thing is you just dont need all that much e generation unless you are doing something a bit crazy like rushing snipers as soon as your lab is done

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since you have alot of metal in your bank and more in your t1 lab you just use that time to build winds or asolars with your commander

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if you do 3 mex you need to go blow your commander right away

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and rely on cons and con turrets to make the energy production

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you can do 6-8 solars into asolars build by 1 con+ commander

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which works great and is really reliable

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and you only need like 3 to build the t2 lab

stray goblet
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the problem is with making the cons for the team. That needs a lot of E very quickly

tired perch
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3 asolars will cover that if you are using minmal bp

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if you want more con turrets you have to make more asolars

stray goblet
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well, if the team is fine getting some of the T2 cons after minute 9-10, then yes. And to be fair, the team should be fine with that

tired perch
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well pure cons is to be honest just not a thing anymore in high os

stray goblet
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I bet, it's pretty stupid in my opinion

tired perch
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its an autoloss vs a unit build

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you could gamble on their tech being a noob

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but i dislike hope based strategies

stray goblet
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Tried the proposed changes. I don't like it at all, all the solar starts are shit now

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I mean, the existing solar starts are so perfect I have to think they were intentionally set up this way. Like the 3 solar vehicle start gets us exactly the full E bar, then that is just enough E to assist the con.
With the new changes none of the builds are perfect anymore, either not enough E or overflowing E.

tired perch
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I liked 3mex>walk 4th mex>5solar strat

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that is how I do thug rushes

wraith mesa
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I have a crazy idea for an alternative tech build... Standard premise for tech is to give T2 Cons to allies so they can build AMex, right?
What if, rather than building 8 T2 Con Bots and sending the first 7 to allies, you instead build 1 T2 Air Con and micro it yourself, putting down nanoframes on allied Mexes with BP nearby at first, then using mobile BP of your own after your AMexes are done in order to upgrade everyone else's remaining Mexes?
I recognize that Air Cons are expensive and not very cost-effective, so the first T2 Con will probably be later than a comparable standard build, but once it comes out, the entire team gets to start upgrading their Mexes, no need to worry about who gets the first one, or how much longer it would take to get the last few out.
Primary logic: T2 Cons are built for their nanoframes, not their BP. Air Cons are the most mobile way to place nanoframes.
Secondary logic: 1 Air Con is probably less expensive than 8 Bot Cons, but I haven't run the numbers for the labs.

shut gyro
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only 170 excessed with some turning inefficiencies

image.png
winged dew
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So, imo 1 con for everyone is not an option. Maybe like 4, to quickly handle more bases. In theory you could use first for first mexes for everyone, meanwhile build your own mexes instead of more cons and then make the rest so everyone has one. But as I said, it's trading resources for APM and you often have more resources than APM.

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(that got me thinking that there should be a guide about apm as the 4th resource)

sharp fog
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or on energy rich map where one player is going for t2 air lab

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t2 con sharing is very good, as the con takes substantial energy and time to make

stray goblet
# shut gyro I don't think it's that bad for 3 mex 3 solar vehicle

I did some tests. Without big turning inefficiencies it is about 80E excess with the 3 solars start. But the problem is that the lab now has more BP so delaying the lab is worse than before, and also because the lab build time is shorter, the extra E generation can't 'pay' enough.

3 mex, 3 solar, vehicle lab, con with com assist (This is the previous best build)
1:11 lab, 1:23 con, 80E excess.

3 mex, 2 solar, vehicle lab, solar, con with com assist (on low priority)
1:01 lab, 1:26 con, 0E excess.
1215 BP advantage compared to the 3 solars start and 3s later con.

3 mex, 2 solar, vehicle lab, solar, solar, con with com assist
1:01 lab, 1:25 con, 0E excess.
1310 BP advantage compared to the 3 solars start and 2s later con.

2 mex, solar, mex, solar, vehicle lab, solar (, solar), con with com assist (on low priority)
1:01 lab, 1:24 con, 0E excess.
1405 BP advantage compared to the 3 solars start and 1s later con but 10*metalvalue metal loss.

mex, solar, mex, mex, solar, vehicle lab, solar (, solar), con with com assist (on low priority)
1:01 lab, 1:23 con, 0E excess.
1500 BP advantage compared to the 3 solars start but 20*metalvalue metal loss.

So this essentially barely matters now. We now have one fewer skillchecks.
I'm going to do the '3 mex, 2 solar, vehicle lab, solar, solar, con with com assist' build for now.

I didn't test but I'm sure that building wind turbines after the lab and before the con is even more punishing than before. And because of the shorter lab build time, building wind turbines just before the lab is much worse now too.
So it's pretty much that build, or the same but with one wind turbine after one of the mexes.

I might do the bot lab tests too later but I'm pretty sure it's pointless.

shut gyro
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bot lab had more slack with 2 solar anyway yeah

stray goblet
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there was a perfect bot lab built, the mex, solar, mex, solar, mex, lab. Similarly to the vehicle start, that too produced pretty much exactly the max amount of E and best con timings, just nobody used it other than me due to the metal value lost (30s).

shut gyro
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i think now with vehicle the 4 solar before assisting must be better because of the energy stored as well

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now that energy demands are slightly higher once lab is finished

stray goblet
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yeah, 2 solar before the lab, 2 after it. I'm bothered a bit by its cost, the 3 solar start was great because after that we could build wind turbines, now we shouldn't but at least we have less metal in the lab.

shut gyro
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if we ask for ~50 more storage on solar we can have the perfect start back

stray goblet
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It won't be the perfect start anymore because we lose more BP by delaying the lab. Previously it was like ~400 lost BP in exchange for 7s earlier con. Now even if we get extra E storage, it will be 1310 lost BP in exchange for 2s earlier con.

tired perch
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you can do alot more fun fast units strats tho

stray goblet
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That's true

tired perch
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1 con+lab now spends all your metal on thugs

stray goblet
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Did one try with the bot lab. That one try was apparently the perfect one: 3 mexes, 2 solars, bot lab, solar, assist the con. There is no better bot lab starts

tired perch
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and commander is more free to walk around after the lab is done

shut gyro
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those will be the interesting builds to explore

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with grunt/pawn spam builds you were often locked to the lab

tired perch
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also replacing your lab with a forward lab should be better now

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I thought it was quite bad before despite the popularity

stray goblet
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Yeah these are great and I'm sure the game will be even more fun.
But I enjoyed how before we had more options and tradeoffs and that the best builds were unintuitive, and small optimizations could matter a lot. Now it's pretty much 2 solars before the lab (with both main labs) and one or two after it. That's it.

shut gyro
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I'll try fitting in a wind or two

stray goblet
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I don't think any wind could help. Maybe a turbine can save you an additional 4s in exchange for some metal but other than that I don't think turbines with normal wind speeds are going to be useful

shut gyro
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there's a crossover where you can do 1-2 wind before lab and delay solar #4

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until after con

stray goblet
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yeah there are probably some options with wind turbines if we build one or two between the mexes (maybe after the first). I'm pretty sure those turbines won't significantly alter the end results though. Maybe you can get a con 3s earlier in exchange for some metal and BP. I don't see the possibility for significantly better results.