Eliminate High OS Planned OP Takes

[storm harbor]

90% of my strategies depend on com mobility rip

[hearty briar]

just trans nano and bought con xD and build with com at home
budget version

[storm harbor]

Ew

[heady dawn]

An algorithm that recognizes planned OP takes and adjusts OS proportionally could work I guess

[faint elm]

Hoelander*

[smoky path]

if it actually recognises them, and doesn't just produce mostly false positives.

[delicate shale]

That just sounds impossible to actually fairly take into account for balance unless it's some global change to how OS works in parties but then it would affect everyone in parties not just "planned OP takes". It sound like you're suggesting that the game should somehow monitor party members for "too much communism" and adjust that party somehow to account for it which imo just doesn't seem like a good solution.

Sure it's harder to coordinate such strats if you haven't pre-planned and partied but it's just making use of game mechanics that are available to everyone. Sure you might not be able to get someone to do the strat with you every game if you aren't partied but it's possible to just ask your team to jump in voice and coordinate the same level of communism with the same OS spread on the team without a party.

Idk it seems like a slippery slope to me to adjust balance based on what strategy someone is using. Even being in voice to coordinate provides a massive benefit to your team and that happens all the time whether or not folks are partied up.

[heady dawn]

An algorithm to detect or CoC to regulate are the only viable options that have presented themselves so far imo

[cosmic cairn]

We could also address the very problematic balance issues in the game that allow this to happen

[heady dawn]

Like what?

[cosmic cairn]

The resource sharing one's that have been discussed above and in N many threads. See: communism, boosting etc.

[heady dawn]

Yes that regular communism which is a broad topic and probably not something that will be made into standard so idk too broad a discussion- that cant be expected to solve problem highlighted in this thread- since the suggested communism solution might only end up as a modoption that wont always be enabled either- so ye

[empty orchid]

I think it's important to point out that in my idea it wouldn't be my goal to punish for op takes or communism-like plays, this isn't a rule breaking/enforcement thing or about penalizing people who win more. This would be purely about improving balance regimes so that common behaviours are better compensated for and recognised in team compositions/match ups.

[cosmic cairn]

ya like no rules are being broken here, this is an issue with game balance and a manifestation thereof

[unborn swallow]

So you guys think it's okay Xlive got banned from a lobby just by playing the game?
Coz some say it's because of Chat but never showed proof of chat abuse
and other glitters gods say it's coz of coop, very confusing

[dusty marten]

Regardless it doesn't matter what he got banned for

Boss in lobby has the power to kick anyone and everyone for any reason or no reason at all

Just take the kick ban and find another lobby, there's usually atleast 5 glitters lobbies running at all times :)

[unborn swallow]

interesting

[empty orchid]

I've been kick banned from a handful of lobbies during my time here, once or twice for playing too good and probably once or twice for not playing well enough. You suck it up and you move on. 🤷‍♂️ no one's obligated to play with anyone.

[ocean fog]

its good thing it cause controversy though. that new MoD option might fix the resource share problem.

[unborn swallow]

well yeah, i guess if someone is shameless he can just kick a player coz he ruins the fun for him winning to much
The things you learn

[smoky path]

isnt it p common for ppl to get kicked for being too high or too low OS

but if its an "ALL WELCOME" lobby on the label then its a bit more spiteful

[unborn swallow]

idk there is only 3 lobbies playable for good players, 1 rotato, 1 glitters, 1 Strait, being perma banned from any of them isn't the same as some random lobby
and when it's for obvious no legitimate reasons it's very weird the mods allow that

[digital solstice]

it's totally legitimate why won't anyone engage with this in good faith

[empty orchid]

Yeah, I think there's a difference between legal and understandable

You can do a lot of things in life and in this game that is "legal", but you'll still be viewed as anti-social/grifting.

Same issue comes up with widgets

[ocean fog]

true og huggy bear strat was legal but his gone now

[wide kettle]

To give a Mod's perspective: telling our community "you must play with this person or else" sounds like a good way to make people stop playing BAR altogether. We want people to have fun -- and if a lobby decides they can't have fun when a certain person is in the lobby, then they need a way to remove that person.

[unborn swallow]

Yeah losing isn't fun for anybody, especially when you trying to climb the ladder

[wide kettle]

I disagree -- there are a ton of games that I've lost while still having fun

[empty orchid]

Match dodging, avoiding certain maps, feeding/op take, partying, widgets etc I get why people trying to climb the leaderboard will try to exploit those things, and I also get why many people wouldn't want to play with them

And both of them are perfectly justified if you start with each side's premise on what the point of the game is and what the source of fun is, but both are somewhat mutually exclusive.

[proud portal]

If only there was a way to listen to feedback from others and behave in a way that treats others with respect if you don’t want to get kicked from the few lobbies that are available.

Nope it must be everyone else that is wrong

[unborn swallow]

Rotato never banned anyone for doing coop/playing the video game and we have seen a lot of all diferent kind
we may express our dislike of it in chat but to ban someone for playing the video is just so shameless

[hazy nacelle]

People who play only 1 map are rather close minded wcyd, it comes with the territory I guess.

[dusty marten]

Yeah I suppose the second smallest group in the game aside from the ffa players are probably the only open-minded people in the game.

Only logical the elite of the elite stand out above the rest

[hearty briar]

"oh heavens I'm drowning in my open-mindedness"

[tame vigil]

But it's due to gameplay issue people aren't playing with that person, its not griefing/toxicity or any sort of ruining behaviour, its just doing the best strat possible on map.

its not that the lobby is low skill either, u see several 25+ and some 50+ in that lobby, its not even noob farming.

but if u ban a player for doing too good from the highest level glitter lobby there is, hes just gonna go to the other lobbies which will be exclusively noobs

[dusty marten]

After xfactor went on his rant in the ape discord about how he deserved to be #1 on the leaderboard and how he was so much better than anybody else, it was pretty easy to come up with the decision to kb him from the lobby

[tame vigil]

ok gg then its drama issue

truly a wcyd moment

[dusty marten]

We did say it was something from chat

And raikoh mocked it like we were lying

[tame vigil]

raikoh S tier trol

[dusty marten]

That is true

But still, drama or playstyle and what not, it doesn't matter what or why he was kicked from the lobby

[jaunty owl]

I mean… the glitters lobby is full of sensitive dicks. I got “permanently banned from op glitters” lobby the other day from this onemoreafer guy because I built a couple winds in his perceived base border and therefore he “didnt have room” to make a plasma shield on like 8 AFUS and then died to a lolcannon. Naturally, after he told me why he didn’t build a bubble (see above explanation) I called him an idiot and I was kickbanned and now “permanently banned”. Glitters lobby full of sensible intelligent people indeed.

[dusty marten]

The running joke is that there isn't a game that goes by where afer doesn't kickban or try to kb somebody 😭😭

Always somebody else's fault

[lavish ledge]

Hot take but boss based kickban and vote based kickban shouldn't be treated the same.

Idk what happened but imo if xfactor got boss kickbanned, i'd argue the boss should be moderated. And if it was a majority vote, suck it up.

Kickban for personal beef that happened outside of the game is immature boss abuse.

Kickban due to the majority disliking to play along with his undoubtedly op strategy? A bit cringe but fair.

[jade falcon]

Kickban for personal beef is less problematic than kickban for being good and on the enemy team

[karmic hinge]

I'm suing you for trademark infringement. You are stealing my job 😛 (to build windfarms in other peoples bases)

Also if you have not been banned by Chuddy then you are not a true glitters enjoyer 😛

[heady dawn]

No glitters player likes Onemoreafer lol- dont group us up with him!

[karmic hinge]

im joking

There are many people playing glitters :). Everyone is not the same

[heady dawn]

Im talking about Nezah lol- "I mean… the glitters lobby is full of sensitive dicks. I got “permanently banned from op glitters” lobby the other day from this onemoreafer guy" -smh- also that entire Nezah post is off topic lol just random rant xD

[karmic hinge]

Nice

[unborn swallow]

yeah surely i will believe it when you don't share any logs
and half the people say it's coz he was doing coop
i though it was in game chat, imagine banning for discord chat

[smoky path]

not the first time ppl got banned for discord chat

[dusty marten]

It was a vote :) in our ape lobbies at most given times we make up around 10+ of the 16 players

And you can't see the crowns but everyone is boss as well, so we all hold the power

[dusty marten]

If someone is a genuine prick then why should we be forced to play with them? Xfactor can go cry in the straits lobby about how he deserves #1 on the leaderboard

[unborn swallow]

idk, do whatever you want i guess, mods allow it, at least they made it clear

[dusty marten]

It's been clear for a fairly long time that you're allowed to kick someone from lobby as boss

[proud portal]

That was inappropriate. Afer was tilted. I don’t personally agree with @amber condor ‘s permaban eye for an eye post game. He knows I disagree this. Not every boss of the op lobby behaves this way

[amber condor]

I was tilted although I did call out at least 5 times throughout the game i need space. It's stated in rules I shouldn't reclaim allies buildings but oh well, Nezah had his way so

[proud portal]

The last time I saw Xfactor get voted to get kicked was after three players (xfactor, hoelander, and raigeki) spent minutes dodging and rejoining the game until your party was established and talking about the exploit you were enacting. People were tired of time being wasted.

Minimizing the complaint to “just drama” is a great way for some folks to absolve themselves of taking any reasonable personal responsibility

[unborn swallow]

omg another dude thinking im Raigeki, i haven't played glitters in many weeks
chill

[proud portal]

Hey, I did take the time to go through and look at the replays with xfactor to figure out who was on the team and iwas in fact raigeki. I'm sorry for making this false accusation. I will edit my previous post to point blame at raigeki, the intended target, and remove references to you

[golden horizon]

Omg this dellusional discussion still going on

[proud portal]

at least i change my viewpoint when presented with new information

[unborn swallow]

it's okay, last time i joined glitters to spec some games, everyone told me i was farming noob lobbies
im forever Raigeki now

[proud portal]

I'm sorry for making that false accusation against raikoh. there is plenty that hes said in this thread to lose my respect, i dont have to falsely attribute that event

[golden horizon]

Bro im not even joking or lieing u are fucking propaganda speaker more than half your statements are actual blatent lies or false information.

[unborn swallow]

PtaQ just got boosted in OP lobby, from minute 0, let's perma ban PtaQ i think

[proud portal]

did ptaq join the op lobby with a 9 os player and take their base at minute 0? because i think as long as he didn't do that specifically it isn'te relevent to this thread. notice that the title says "eliminate high os PLANNED OP takes" empahsis mine

[proud portal]

link the replay so that others could decide if they think that this gameplay also feels like a violation of this proposed coc modification

[golden horizon]

It should be allowed to accidentally play good but not with intend ahahahavava

Its just too funny

[proud portal]

yes yes yes, we all know that htis is your counterargument

you're very smart

[golden horizon]

So what just because it makes too much sense u gonna pretend it doesnt exist

[unborn swallow]

Glitters gods can make whatever rules they want, actually don't need tweaks, just ban op

[heady dawn]

Jagomu speaking facts lol

[proud portal]

nope its "lies and propoganda"

[golden horizon]

Jagomu speaks what u want to hear but half his statments can be fact changed and are wrong

Such as recently u said me hoeland and raigeki kept dodging all the time. Absolutely wrong. It was ur people and some randoms dodging around 15 times until I and hoelander had to dodge due to 2 1 chevs in our team

[proud portal]

The fact that we're are here having this conversation is proof you are wrong. We're not gods, just some friends trying to have a good time and play the highest quality games we possibly can. Different bosses have different ways of trying to achieve that goal (like banning nezah cause he built some windmills) but trying to maintain the integrity of the lobby and improve the quality of games is part of the charge of the boss

[cursive dust]

I would argue that would put a precedent to even worse things.

If you are a boss and you do not like someone - then just avoid/ ignore or kickban it's whatever that's what the boss (absolute authority) is there for. (plz do not kick me)

I personally hate banning/ kicking people, but given the drama (which still is somewhat existing) - I kind of understand the perspective. However on the other hand, I also do not see anyone giving a shit few weeks in the future about this "drama"

[golden horizon]

Ahahahhagagagaghaga

[proud portal]

I can say that of other common bosses in the op glitters lobby. I trust @cursive dust @sturdy fox and others to treat that priviliege with respect

[cursive dust]

Not to mention all of this drama is mainly caused by the lack of players playing.

[proud portal]

im glad this is a joke to you

[cursive dust]

It's more complicated than that; but it's the core issue, I guess.

[amber condor]

If laudy wants someone kb'd he gives boss to me lmao

[proud portal]

if it was at all the same, they would have kickbanned me for trying to avoid your disruption

[golden horizon]

No just u

[cursive dust]

BAR will look completely different with 2x playerbase (meta/ strategies/ attitude of players/,,)

[smoky parcel]

As someone without a dog in this fight, can we get a best of seven between Cheetah and whoever, and Xfactor and whoever on Glitters. Would make good content.

[cursive dust]

ur known for kicking anyone that u deem insufficient at any time - on the other hand I kickban like noone.

[golden horizon]

@smoky parcel there is no point

[amber condor]

There's a difference between trying your best and ignoring team calls from 7 players on your team :D

[cursive dust]

It'S also a strategy to let your teammates to die

[proud portal]

can we mature past the point where we need a dick measuring contest to decide CoC?

[unborn swallow]

i mean if you kick people for buildings winds in imaginary borders maybe it's time to realise you guys are getting insane playing only 1 map

[cursive dust]

There are extreme case scenarios pretty much anywhere

[proud portal]

i already said i disagreed with his behavior and reason

[cursive dust]

I once opened vehicles on rotato (forests) and got instantly kickbanned XD

[amber condor]

He was building within my base, it's been stated by mods multiple times to respect other's space while setting up your build, I was trying to go with peaceful option but he ignored me throughout 30 minutes game so

[smoky parcel]

people open veh all the time on rotato, if you were kicked it was for something else

[golden horizon]

My problem is that u are trying to force some random coc change to make my actions seem like a crime just me doing them before rules were established. Criminal in spirit. While in reality im doing a perfectly fine and legal thing all tournament players are doing. And it is your ape clan that is criminal with all this harassment, false accusations and ban agenda.

[proud portal]

@golden horizon i dont care about turning your previous actions into a "crime". I just want an opportunity for the community to step back and say "hey going forward, thers like 5 of us that play this game, how do we actually want to treat each other? and do we think that what xfactor did was flying a bit too close to the sun"

[unborn swallow]

Mods said they can do whatever they feel like, so i guess continuing this thread is useless
should be locked

[proud portal]

what you did isn't against CoC and i'm not looking to retroactively punish for anything

just have a conversation about how we want to care for the space that we all inhabit

[golden horizon]

Admins and mods already said it is fully legal what i do and nothing will be done against it. So drop it

[cursive dust]

Yes, there is absolutely no value in continuing this.

[proud portal]

lots of folks in the thread disagree

[golden horizon]

I dont care if ur ape clan disagrees

[proud portal]

not everyone that disagrees in this thread is ape clan

[unborn swallow]

Players can make they own "safe space" in lobby and can kick for anything that doesn't make them happy

[cursive dust]

The attention has been given; decision given; we are back where we were before - number of players is too small

[smoky parcel]

I've heard you can even create private lobbies

[cursive dust]

There should never (in an ideal world) be any issue to get high min rating lobbies going; however, sadly many times we can afford min 10; on the most popular map

[golden horizon]

Its just natural that players cry about balance (aka coop here) instead of improving and actually countering it.

[unborn swallow]

in 2 years they will ban people for having afus 20secs too late and having 1 wind outside the border

[cursive dust]

in 2 years there will be no moderation as there will be not enough workforce to check all the claims

[golden horizon]

@unborn swallow No u get ban for 20 sec too fast afus

[cursive dust]

(in the world of popular bar o.O)

[golden horizon]

Mimimi someone send him metal and e, this afus timing is unacceptable. We cant beat it its unfair. Either u be slower or we ban u

[unborn swallow]

Only them can do it or they feel unhappy

[golden horizon]

Worst things is those guys lost 1 game vs my strat. And thats why they cry about it. If atleast they played like mutliple times vs it they had seen its beatable as they have seen a week later. Cheetah just got so pissed he lost while 1 game away from 1st he brain washed entire ape clan to do this rant based on 1 game 💀

And the funniest thing is that game was not decided by me, but by 20os winning. Vs cheetah

Anyone can look replay up

[unborn swallow]

Cheetah so good he dies to 5 grunts when he comes out of his kingdom

[proud portal]

Oh I was very happy when you and hoelander lost then raigeki lost doing it with BN_joe immediately after when playing with actually good players. Your 100% winrate is only possible by intentionally taking advantage of os and playing in weaker lobbies. That’s what this thread is about.

[heady dawn]

Luckily the devs are smart

[golden horizon]

i like how pinkgeneral reacts to message in 1 second while i takes way longer to read

[heady dawn]

I read quick but I might glance a lil lol

[vernal tulip]

Your strat becomes more beatable as hoe increases in rating tbh

[golden horizon]

kinda biased no

[golden horizon]

not really, the better hoe gets the better he supports

if i had kuchy as 40 os support would be soo much better

[vernal tulip]

Not really causw balancer counts him as a nonfactor

[golden horizon]

he is with just spamming wind

[vernal tulip]

Having kuchy would mean you would get team with all the noobs

[golden horizon]

its really not optimal

[cosmic cairn]

The coop stuff is a part of the game that needs to go away. CoC is not the way

[vernal tulip]

Coop makes the game unique

[proud portal]

I can only say so many times that this thread is not about coop, it’s about os manipulation

[golden horizon]

i would love to play with kuchy, but party is impossible + different timezone

[golden horizon]

u dont even have experience with that coop

[proud portal]

Yup and that sucks, I wish there were enough players where you could find a lobby where that’s possible

[vernal tulip]

Wind ticks and prob gives u metal so even if he has bad game sense he is super impactful

[golden horizon]

yes its impactful, but its not the best

[vernal tulip]

But when i checked u had like 20 games together and people are going nuclear for some reason

[golden horizon]

for example if i do this strat with kuchy and i play vs myself and hoelander, we would hard stomp every game

[proud portal]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[vernal tulip]

Yes but with a huge gap in os sum

[golden horizon]

true but even if our team mate was 20 os and theirs like 40os we would win

assuming the team mate is a random

if its tripple party then no

[lavish ledge]

yea, im just that good. suck it up hoelander

[golden horizon]

cheetah was all the time posting how i had 90% winrate or something with hoelander and apparently 55% with others, but he always checked 1 year old replay, instead of recent. if he was checking recent he had seen i had 80-90% playing with other people too aswell as solo and on many different maps.

if that aint picking up stats u like to portrait me bad then i dont know

[smoky path]

Coop isn't just limited to pooling eco early, you can share stuff later on to the support player so you both have an optimal amount of stuff to do

One micros on front while other focuses on eco / air, for example

[vernal tulip]

Removing coop would def be a mistake

[heady dawn]

Removing coop same as removing communism no?

[golden horizon]

removing coop is one of those historical changes that would be able to kill bar player base

[vernal tulip]

Yes

[golden horizon]

sure maybe there is 20% chance it would make game even explode but why risk it

[vernal tulip]

Lol how

[golden horizon]

imagination rofl

[heady dawn]

It would be a big change idk- I like the dev opinion that it mainly needs to be solved for the sake of fun for the players

[unborn swallow]

why seek another solution when there is already one

[vernal tulip]

Uninstall?

[heady dawn]

U wanna say removing communism will solve everything?

[unborn swallow]

ban people playing the game properly ofc

[heady dawn]

Wether they play properly ppl decide themselves lol

[golden horizon]

one day communities gonna perma ban other communities and game will die

and this is where it started

[unborn swallow]

but they will do it themselves, just remove competition

[viral ether]

Ye all the remove sharing talks scare me

[golden horizon]

dont worry devs wont go with this, most we will have is a mod that people can enable for lobby or not, but it will never go into main game

[cosmic cairn]

This thread IS about coop. It is caused by coop. It is the point. Don't miss it. This OS inflation(alleged) is caused by it.

[viral ether]

Ok on that point

Would you have an issue with factor playing his low os friend and coaching him on discord

[proud portal]

In general, I wouldn’t have issue with playing with a low os friend

[heady dawn]

"Alleged OS inflation" xD- yes we can create thread "looking for low OS ppl who want easy wins by doing nothing"

[copper wraith]

Would you kindly tone down the antagonizing?
Discuss the strats, not the players personalities, or we'll have to lock the thread down.
And please, keep politics out of bar.

[amber condor]

Stormfire imma be honest with you, right now it's kinda about personalities. One side believes it's okay to "use" low OS players as a coop to their economy while the other side wants to make sure matches are played in 8v8 fashion. It's not political but very much so based on personal preferences and personalities

I am trying to stay as unbiased for either side, I've had hour long discussion pretty much with either side regarding my statement on the situation and their views on it and it is just a matter of preference, there is no spot between all of it unless the BAR team themselves make an official statement and implement changes

[copper wraith]

Preferences being the matter of discussion does not mean one should resort to ad hominem as an argument.

[cosmic cairn]

The short of it is...coop is in the game, and unless it's balanced out this will happen as it's very strong. So if you want this to go away, we'll need to figure out how to balance it. There is no "we'll just don't do that it's not fair". Argument to be made.

[amber condor]

Oh I am not saying I agree with what Caliburn sent, that being said this whole argument is a clash of minds

[proud portal]

I don’t see why there isn’t space for that argument. Why shouldn’t we try to hold ourselves to a higher standard?

[hearty briar]

it's the only argument lol it's not a moral one

it's about game design and making a game where the optimal strat is actually somewhat fun

[amber condor]

^^^
I agree, the game is played as a team, cooperation in a way that every player contributes towards the team, what either side didn't point out is some maps work different than others. Yes I know we'll talking about glitters again because that's where it all started with this one. Glitters is a tempo map, fights occur, small reclaim happens, big reclaim is created, tempo is enforced by fighting over the reclaim and then we have a stalemate with one side being ahead of the other in 99% of the cases. Why does it matter then? It matters because the person with more income and units can usually ensure the control over the reclaim field thus pretty much securing the victory long term IF the other side of the map plays at least defensive style. Now that said that's the gameplay part of it. I've not touched on OS imbalance by teaming up with people who clearly have no way as of right now to serve as much in an actual micro and macro battle shown by their games without the teammate. Then we also get into how it gives you better allies on average by doing so and how you inflate someone's OS.

[cosmic cairn]

For me it's that people will always try to play a game, a system, as advantageously as possible and to not do that breaks the experience in its own way. I agree about the strats being lame/unfun but I do think they have to be fixed from a game perspective. For me this would dramatically progress the game from a competitive perspective

[amber condor]

Before anyone makes jokes again and starts yelling out "APES BAD" or "XFACTOR BAD" please consider that both sides have taken more or less precautions to not hurt their public image, I've stated that I don't want anyone banned for what had happened, Jagomu did as well, so for the sake of the game being fun and balanced for all players across the community, be it rotato, straits, glitters, small or big team games, let's actually figure out a way to solve this issue instead of throwing literal shit at each other because that's what's been happening last couple days

[copper wraith]

Yep, that's what i was asking for, to keep this thread civilized.

[amber condor]

That's what I've asked for before as well but well.. It all descends into madness as soon as emotions are at play

[eternal eagle]

Do we even have a concrete suggestion to summarize and present to a contributor here yet?

[amber condor]

I should also state that I am not a middleman for either side, I don't want to be and I am not gonna go around either side and say stuff in their name. Both sides along with moderation should group up at some time, listen to all arguments, check data based on how the issue is present in current games and how much threat is serves towards the integrity of the main purpose of a team game and only then after all of this had happened, make an official statement that will once for all end this argument. That's what I can say for either side and hope the rest can be resolved by the people doing research on said argument

[dusty marten]

There's already something that taxes resource sharing and disables transferring units and what not, so unless something is going to happen os wise the issue already has a solution should it be needed

[eternal eagle]

Cool, so nothing coming out if this as expected 😛

[dusty marten]

I think that should have been the ending point of this thread really but apparently xfactor getting kicked from a lobby is game shattering

So it has continued on

[amber condor]

I've been kicked from a lobby recently as well by one of the moderators(not gonna call out names but they know who they are, no hard feelings for it lol), despite them being in spectators after they set the max rating in a lobby when I was in the team, waiting for the game to start but nothing has been done about it, I don't expect anything to happen to that person but I do think that should be limited by a bit, the moderator's power to influence a lobby without being asked by anyone to do so, or at least the majority of it. That's an issue that I've been trying to discuss but got nowhere as of now. Kicks from a lobby do happen and as long as boss mode will have the power to do so, it will serve as small automoderation tool for lobbies

And yes for moderation reading the message above, that is my call to start open talks regarding such statement, I've not had much of a response and I feel like it's being ignored despite it being an issue that could grow in the future. I am aware I am not the one to make decisions but it does feel like it's being swept under the rug.

[heady dawn]

The mods wanna create algorithm for it but they know it would be difficult

[amber condor]

In general it would be difficult to bind only certain units under "can and cannot share" category. Some units are crucial to the game while others are given away at later stages as "I can't micro it, take it"

or more "I don't wanna micro it"

because let's be honest, a 40 OS player can certainly still eco in his base and micro t3's

[smoky parcel]

It is basically two issues with a common outcome. 1) people will abuse moderation powers as Boss in lobbies, and abuses and mistakes will happen, but that does not change that people can and should be able to control the lobbies they play in if they wish. 2) People will abuse coop/communism strats in game, but for now that is seen as an untouchable core mechanic of the game. Change on either issue is not going to happen, at least for now.

[heady dawn]

If you read the mods actual posts then you might get a better idea about whats actually relevant- ex. Devious null -most of what yall been saying sounds hella off topic lol- I can be hard to resist the temptation

[cosmic cairn]

No, this is a balance issue related to coop

[proud portal]

i think if you just delete raikoh and xfactors comments and anyone (especially myself) foolish to fall for their bait, youd be left with an actual reasonable conversation that talks honestly about why what xfactor and hoelander did was potentially exploitative and what if any ways there are to mitigate that percieved problem. heck even xfactor is nearly honest a few times with how the strategy works and where there are shortcomings

and i'm not just saying "delete everyone that disagrees with me", just delete anyone thats off topic

[eternal eagle]

Ye I think because this was opened in the suggestions forum (for some reason), that we should try and get back on track to devising and sharing something more concrete that a contributor could implement and test, perhaps even reworking Chrono's implementation or pushing that one further forward.

[proud portal]

"wow this stupid thread is still going on" is of course derailing and intentionally belittling a discussion which to be fair is targetted at the author

[proud portal]

yeah and its hard. There would be lots of unintended consequences to a lot of what has been proposed in this thread as a potential solution.

at the end of the day, both parties are trying to not kill the game. I believe that behavior like xfactors will lead to more people being put off the game. Perhaps others feel more strongly that added strict rules and their unintended consequences would be worse for the game and thus its populatoin

[amber condor]

I feel like the strategy is early game oriented, that being said, it's the most important time of the game, sure your base is more vulnerable as you build most the stuff in one place but providing such bonus on tempo for one player is certainly more than exploitive considering every aspect of the game. That's just my view on the strategy as someone who played the game quite a bit

[snow garnet]

Disagree. On the giga-porc maps that allow OP Takes, it's more beneficial because of how scaling economies work. You can scale faster and more explosively, which still makes you reach late game faster and so it's still strong

[amber condor]

Yea but I am talking micro wise, early game eco allows you to control more mexes, late game you will get denied via multiple sources regardless. I am just pointing out the usage of the strat on glitters which we have been focusing on so far

[lavish ledge]

literally the only downside to coop is that you reach APM stall earlier with boosted eco.

[hearty briar]

better to build 1 fusion faster than build 2 asolars at same time

same with 1 solar at a time than 2 solars

esp when doing so can catapult you to more effecient eco

[merry plank]

Afer doesn’t speak for all glitters players. Him kickbanning you once doesn’t mean you are going to be kickbanned by us all forever. I certainly would not stand for that.

[jaunty owl]

I know, its just very comedic how he spoke for all of you.

[proud portal]

https://tenor.com/view/sweats-gif-25346666

[jaunty owl]

https://tenor.com/view/key-and-peele-keegan-michael-key-karim-and-jahar-creep-perv-gif-25470775

[merry plank]

When did I check a one year old replay? I compared your stats with hoelander to your all time stats. I never looked up one year old replays of anything.

But I mean.. all the stats I laid out are in the first three posts so.. I mean I assume everyone talking here can read.

[golden horizon]

do u mind explaining how all time stats does not include 1 year old replays

[merry plank]

They include all time stats. You make it sound like I am specifically going back in time to look up one specific instance of a win rate for you to manipulate stats.

If I was to filter only only a recent month or some period of time you’d claim I was trying to manipulate the picture of your stats by only picking the time period I did.

[golden horizon]

no I am saying that u take my recent stats of hoelander (as i mostly only played recently with him) and compare them to all time stats parties, this comparisson makes no sense

u should compare my recent winrate with hoelander to my recent winrate with other people

[merry plank]

Look, I included the stats sites and replay sites. You are welcome to bring your own subset of stats to the argument for our viewing pleasure.

[smoky path]

Depends how you do it, if you got a good division of labor where one focuses on eco and the other on front, it can actually improve on it. But takes practice before you can do it seamlessly, we're not there yet

[golden horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-confused-look-gif-24835232

[unborn swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/hmm-thinking-adding-up-calculating-cute-gif-6340958771783078643

[jade falcon]

Just needs a widget where everything you produce that has a weapon gets insta-shared to the nano player

[merry plank]

Pretty sure every time I quote your stats with hoelander and your overall stats, you bring up your solo game stats to compare to your team game stats with hoelander which I find ridiculous as well.

[golden horizon]

@merry plank here

hoelander stats same as stats playing with others

[unborn swallow]

omg im a Xlive slave too

[jade falcon]

Wdym Raigeki not on the list

[smoky path]

that stat doesnt rly show anything? they could be on the same game where you coop with hoelander

[golden horizon]

i can assure u raikoh was not farming glitter with me

[proud portal]

This is how I do it and have been enjoying this division doing coop on glitters with backline positions. We’re both very active as one player has a lot of apm on micro and the other has macro and often pork

[golden horizon]

entire point of cheetah is to say, my winrate in general is bad, but with hoelander its high, but its not true

[proud portal]

I already admitted this mistake, retracted and apologized

[golden horizon]

if u take all time stats, ofc everyone will be at like 50% ish winrate

[unborn swallow]

cheetah just trying very hard to justify a perma ban that he knows he can't justify, so he just making bullshit and say it's science

[proud portal]

I don’t believe cheetah is advocating for a permaban. I’m sure not

[golden horizon]

wasnt even about u

[smoky path]

if i got it right, he wants to ban xfac from games where he and his mates are

[golden horizon]

cheetahs goal is to make me a cheater in spirit

by making my action illegal and then saying that as rules got introduced later im lucky to not be banned

[proud portal]

That’s his choice to make. This thread is discussing if there should be an update to the coc for this kind of behavior. But He is well within his right to not play with Xfactor if he doesn’t want to

[proud portal]

You seem pretty sure of his intentions. I’m not sure there’s any evidence to support this

[merry plank]

......

[golden horizon]

bro there is like 10+ posts as evidence by now

[unborn swallow]

it's not a right to ban someone to have free wins, it's shameless subhuman behavior

[cosmic cairn]

Ya CoC is not the way. The game literally enables you to share things. Its a part of the game. No one is cheating its just balance. That's all.

[proud portal]

I don’t believe I can predict how cheetah would or wouldn’t behave in this hypothetical but this doesn’t sound like the cheetah I know

[merry plank]

my goal is to make this kind of play illegal, yes.. whether you get banned or not is something i do not care about xfactor

i could not care less about you

[golden horizon]

and u think i cheat in spirit no?

[merry plank]

in spirit? i think you are ruining the spirit of the game.. i do not like the playstyle of ruining OS balance by taking your lowest player every game.. if that is what you mean then yes

[proud portal]

The point is it’s not just game mechanics. He’s sandbagging his os by hitching himself without basic game knowledge and this exploitation is premeditated

[golden horizon]

@proud portal there u got ur evidence #11

[cosmic cairn]

Idk, not sure that matters.

[proud portal]

I’m not sure what you think you got evidence for or what the previous 10 items are as you have never included any sources with your posts

[merry plank]

it is why i will not play with you in the game with hoelander giving his things to you. it is in my mind giving an unfair advantage, exploiting the player skill rating system. that is cheating to me and so i will not play against it and i'd love to have it formalized into the CoC. until then, i simply won't play against it

[golden horizon]

if i would repost all evidence u always like to get from me instead searching up urself i would be writing entire day

[proud portal]

Claim by cheetah is that xfactors 100% win rate with this tactic indicates that it does indeed matter

[proud portal]

Then please link me to the posts you’ve made that link to the sources. I have links in cheetahs post and directions for how to replicate them. Can you prove the same please in the future?

[golden horizon]

bro i had high winrate no matter what i did

[cosmic cairn]

It's a valid strategy. It's annoying. But it's a part of the game...Hopefully just for now.

[golden horizon]

how can u not understand this? i play glitter or rotato, solo or coop it was the same

[proud portal]

Do you have screenshots of this record?

[proud portal]

It’s not a matter of understanding. Please back up your claims

[golden horizon]

i already posted like x3 times ahhaha, but w/e ok

[proud portal]

Link to it then! Maybe I am searching incorrectly

[golden horizon]

all rotato and solo

[proud portal]

This is a screenshot of a match history over the course of 4 days.

Can you provide a longer time period where you have maintained this winrate?

[golden horizon]

winrate drops obviously the higher i get, thats how it works, but yes i can

[proud portal]

Ok cool can’t wait to see it

[golden horizon]

my most recent games, me able to hold my 58OS even in rotato solo

[dusty marten]

Honestly the winrate doesn't really matter since xfactor is just cheesing to climb the leaderboard to number one

[golden horizon]

🤣

i do dodge unwinnable games, its true

[dusty marten]

His pride can't handle not being number 1! "Why you think you deserve to be number one over me!"

[dusty marten]

Xfactor only has 22 cows

[merry plank]

maybe sort by "Ally Games" instead of "Wins With" xfactor

[dusty marten]

Oh that's out of 100

[golden horizon]

this stats include ton of small team games by now but w/e

[merry plank]

i did 100 because that's what he's filtered on with his screenshot

only then he sorted by "Wins With" instead of "Ally Games" to skew to most wins

[digital solstice]

0 enemy games just remove parties ez

it's the natural conclusion and it's very dumb that it's going to come to this

[proud portal]

ok i just looked real quick on https://bar-stats-v1.netlify.app/
last 100 games you have 72% win rate
last 500 games you have 57.40% win rate

Of the last 100 games, 20 were with hoelander (18 wins)
you remove that, 80 games without hoelander is 67.5%

[merry plank]

he wins with everyone jag

i haven't looked into what was done with PRO_Sashkorin.. i'm sure all those games were above board..

[golden horizon]

bro we were talking about when i grinded up , obviously when u reach the peak winrate goes down duh

if i have 80% winrate forever i would be 100 OS

[snow garnet]

To be fair, a lot of people have crazy high winrates post Season 0

[proud portal]

honestly, its not about how high those numbers are its about relative performance

[snow garnet]

JT literally went like 22-0 last week

[golden horizon]

now u may ask why my winrate didnt go down with hoelander? well its because i didnt play with him recently

[proud portal]

who asked

[golden horizon]

honestly for all this mudslinging garbage talks u guys should get perma ban

[proud portal]

rock solid defence, champ

"it is in fact the PROSECUTION that should be in jail"

[golden horizon]

what do u even mean, u guys lost every single argument u made

and still bla bla bla ing

[proud portal]

winning or losing these arguments is not for us to decide

[merry plank]

argument? all i did was post stats and facts

there's literally nothing to argue about

[golden horizon]

if i post stats how u lost in ur first 20 games u ever played, how is that relevant?

if u want to use stats, learn how to use them

[unborn swallow]

Arguing with gods and kings is difficult task

[merry plank]

you don't have to look at your overall stats if that pains you. the fact is you OP take a low OS base and play with it. that is what i believe should be against the CoC

[golden horizon]

and u are taking hounds from asian, and afus from laudy

u are also cheater with ur logic

[merry plank]

you are welcome to post a suggestion against people gifting hounds

[unborn swallow]

lol

[golden horizon]

why would i , i am not using ur delusional point of view

[merry plank]

i don't know why you would xfactorlive

[unborn swallow]

this Cheetah has -1 logic

[merry plank]

anyone else see these blocked messages coming up?

[proud portal]

ad hominem

[snow garnet]

This thread is very quickly going no where.

[unborn swallow]

taking afus is cool coz god said it was

[snow garnet]

Might be time to call it quits homies

[proud portal]

i would like to blame raikoh for that if i might be so bold

[proud portal]

no. its not time for quits just cause raikoh comes in and starts typing more ad hominem

[merry plank]

i'd be curious what would happen if we called this to a vote right before we close the thread

[proud portal]

just skip his messages or block him

[proud portal]

discord has polls

[unborn swallow]

you can't choose and pick what type of coop is allowed, you 1 map lobsters

[proud portal]

ad hominem

[unborn swallow]

you just play the game like it is

[merry plank]

yep.. poll was used in spreezy's thread. and i think before we're done here we'll end up using a poll to see what the community thinks

[golden horizon]

in this channel its mostly people who cry about coop, why make a poll here? there is not much people here who have no problem with it, why would they be here. go make poll in neutral territory

[merry plank]

i would love for the mods to make a poll wherever they like

[proud portal]

this thread is where the discussion belongs. im happy to advertise the poll in other places to ensure the results are unbiased

[proud portal]

it would be fantastic if a neutral party could take control of the poll, yess

[golden horizon]

this is place where coop haters cry and feel special because they can meet people who have similar opinion

[proud portal]

ad hominem

[merry plank]

i'd love a link back to this thread so people can read the "arguments" the we've all put forth and then a poll to be conducted

[unborn swallow]

Surely it's not op coop to get gifted an Afus when you got totally trashed in lane

[proud portal]

i think we're talking about a poll not to lock the thread but on the communities agreement with any proposed changes to the coc

[merry plank]

linking to polls about other threads probably isn't the best for this thread

[snow garnet]

K, I did a poll, people wanted the thread locked, we're done boys

[proud portal]

ad hominem

[golden horizon]

where poll

[merry plank]

he jokes

[heady dawn]

Jeez this is sad

[unborn swallow]

well it's time then

[heady dawn]

I wanted to prevent this but its impossible evidently

[proud portal]

hard to without some moderation of raikoh

[golden horizon]

bro u need moderation fr

[proud portal]

A+ trolling. hes successfully ruined any chance at productivity this had

[heady dawn]

Yes should ban those who derail thread pls

[unborn swallow]

i think you ruined it more with your baseless logic in arguments

[proud portal]

saying a thing doesn't make it true

[unborn swallow]

unless you are a god

[proud portal]

you're claiming you are a god? small g or big G?

[unborn swallow]

no you are gods, so what you are saying with no logic is true

[heady dawn]

off topic

[proud portal]

you dont have to understand the logic to agree with it i guess.

[heady dawn]

off topic

[golden horizon]

its so on topic

the entire post here it is them attacking with imaginary arguments, me defending them with actual logic, and them countering with "I am god, what I say is right"

[proud portal]

yes, this quote is definitely not lacking the context of you antagonistically calling us "gods" as a hyperbolic way to criticize lobby bosses for a perceived overuse of power.

[golden horizon]

u are gods because ur will is above all else

overwhelming evidence, hell nah, u are wrong

every time u asked me "please provide evidence" i showed and u were speechless, everytime i ask "where is evidence" u cant find it

[proud portal]

lobby bosses have the ability to moderate lobbies to their liking becasue moderation team is not large enough to field tackle this challenge. as such it is for the lobby itself to use boss to facilitate the environment thats desired by the lobby. If a group of people that frequently play together decide that a certain kind of behavior is cheating, and that group of people does not want to play with that player, and they choose to kickban that person, that is not persecution. Its consequences.

im teaching this to my 4 year old right now actually

[golden horizon]

so u think its correct for players to assemble an anti ape clan group that would hypothetically speaking ban ape clan members from 100s of lobbies

clearly that would not be correct?

[proud portal]

it could be

in this hypothetical situation, i presume i've done something that warrented such a response

[golden horizon]

its kinda discriminating and bullying, no?

[heady dawn]

Off topuc

[proud portal]

but i think your strawman is that you've committed no offense so you're calling on my sense of empathy to create a sitation which might make me more charitable of your stance

[merry plank]

Why do you want to play with us so badly xfactor?

[proud portal]

intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance

[golden horizon]

lol i dont

[heady dawn]

This is not a place for social discussion or social whatever psychology whatever

[merry plank]

Then that’s that

[golden horizon]

im just anoyed u guys keep doing random propaganda posts non stop because u guys lost 1 game.

[proud portal]

then the playersthat would like to continue to play in a fair and balanced way would like to have a conversation about what rules in the coc would adequately address this problem. if you dont want to play there, you can also leave this conversation

[golden horizon]

im not doing any offensive action at all

its just you guys constanly attacking

[proud portal]

opinion

[heady dawn]

Noone said what u did was wrong right now- but that should be wrong

[golden horizon]

every day i wake up and i need to see ur shit messages because u cant drop it

[proud portal]

this is the consequence of exploiting os and balance system. if you didn't want to be under fire, you shouldn't have abused

[golden horizon]

or maybe u guys should first understand coop, or try to counter strat instead crying how op something is

[merry plank]

We don’t like the play style you have put forward. Hypothetically, if the vast majority of BAR players agreed that what you’ve done shouldn’t be allowed then would you agree it should go in the CoC?

And how do we bring this strategy into question with the BAR community?

[proud portal]

from what i saw, when you weren't playing against 10os players, you got smacked. thats anecdotal though

[golden horizon]

so why complain about strat

[merry plank]

We put in a suggestion with how to get to the replays so they can see the games for themselves. Then we should have a vote.

That is all I have done here

[heady dawn]

Thats a great idea that hasnt actually been suggested yet as far as i know- the poll that is

[proud portal]

im complaining about queuing with someone who is 9 os in a lobby with other 10 os players and performing a strategy which in that environment appears to have 100% winrate. Then yo ucontinued to do this for a large number of games. This isn't about what the strategy is. Its disrupting the low os lobbies for your own gain. it makes the game worse

[golden horizon]

but i won most games regardless strat?

[merry plank]

And just because BAR community may or may not vote a certain way… that only informs devs and mods on what the community preference is. Ultimately it’s their game and their decision.

[proud portal]

"i won when i played against adults, why should it matter that i disrupted the youth soccer league"

[golden horizon]

and devs already said multiple times its fully legal what i do and they seek no change

and yet u guys keep going non stop every day

[proud portal]

what devs? devs plural? i saw one dev post that didn't seem to fully understand the thread comment that what was happening wasn't currently against coc

this is why i support cheetahs request the mod makes a poll

[merry plank]

Feel like I’ve only seen one dev in here and he immediately started dreaming of ways to find a way to balance your games with hoelander which is because I assume he agrees they are currently unbalanced.

[proud portal]

actually understand the community desires about "does this thing feel like it should be against the rules and do we as a community want to adopt such language into our coc"

[golden horizon]

i mean if u guys make posts and dont pay attention when devs respond to u its hopeless

[merry plank]

Please screenshot

[proud portal]

i provided the times where i thought there was an official response. i'm requesting you do the same

saying "you just dont know" isn't a counterargument. its juvenile and below you

[merry plank]

There I started with backing up what I said. Your turn

If he thought your games with hoelander were balanced, there would be no reason for this post.

[heady dawn]

Jeez its so clear that today Xfactor and Raikoh are desperatly trying to derail its crazy

[golden horizon]

2 I could find rn, others too hard to find

[merry plank]

Just block Raikoh. He always adds nothing. I did and am happier for it.

[proud portal]

first image talks about the specifics of the strategy, which is i already indicated above, it is the OS exploit and not the specific strategy that is under fire in this thread

[proud portal]

second image is an undisputed fact that the behavior is not currently covered by coc

[merry plank]

Pointing to someone saying it’s not against the CoC… I literally said this in my initial posts on this thread. This thread is to literally get it added to the CoC.

[proud portal]

niether image is relevant to any devs' or moderators' opinion on this specific issue

[golden horizon]

is this another imaginary argument, or where u getting this random info from

[heady dawn]

Idk if devious null and johannes count as moderators

[merry plank]

And as for sharing in general.. I do not believe sharing in general should be against the CoC. Only abuse of the sharing system. Once again, as I said in my initial posts.

[golden horizon]

u cant call intended game mechanic an abuse

[merry plank]

Honestly whenever you think about speaking.. you should read my initial three posts beforehand.

[ocean fog]

abusing noob players what a bully

[proud portal]

also a fair point but more generally: this is a community run game powered by volunteers on all fronts. volunteer devs. volunteer moderators. volunteer players. no one is forced to be here. there isn't an official stance from "the devs" beyond a few very heavy contributors who i consider "more dev" by their track record of actually writing and submitting code. We decide the community we want and we can fight for that . if something isn't part of the rules, and the community agrees it should, then that should be added to the rules

[golden horizon]

dont worry i abused only 20 games noobs, cheetah abused 1000s of games noobs

[digital solstice]

devious null and shad both commented and said it is not against CoC and they are both literally moderators. and IMO it's not going to be against CoC because it would be near impossible to enforce. Something game or balance side will have to be done about it, if anything (which is the whole reason xfactor is doing this)

[proud portal]

oh cool. i was hoping you could share with me the data that supports this claim

do you happen to know the average os of games that cheetah plays in?

perhaps we could compare the distribution of os in each of your games and compare to see who indeed plays with lower level players more

[golden horizon]

i mean glitter always has noobs, and even with decent min, half the lobby is glitter inflated

[proud portal]

if you have the data to support this i owuld love to see it. if its a baseless accusation id encourage you to delete the post

[proud portal]

ad hominem

[merry plank]

Just slander

[golden horizon]

if u take a glitter 40 os and compare to a 40 general os, how many people would argue player b is much stronger

[proud portal]

ok i'll make it more specifc. When i accuse you of abusing games with noobs, i'm accusing you of purposefully going out of your way to find lobbies that are lower level than yourself and then additionally take additional action to give yourself an advantage in that lobby.

i dont see evidence that cheetah seeks out games of lower os players for the purpose of winning at all cost

[merry plank]

We are strong at our map. You are strong at your maps. Straits players strong at their map. Derail the conversation more

[golden horizon]

bro i play all lobbies, i dont search for weak lobby, u think i want 6 afk team mates with unclear rating, hell nah, i played in highest rating lobbies my friend could join and were available

going in super low level lobby is easy way to lose rating, especially when game gives u x3 less rating as when u lose

[proud portal]

@heady dawn i'm saying this post is fallacious because hes saying he doens't have to justify the claim because all people that play glitters are bad.

[merry plank]

It does not give you 3x rating less though.

[golden horizon]

why seek out, just playing

[golden horizon]

right, up to x7 less from my testing

what u get and what u lose

[proud portal]

this is season 0, right? edit, i clicked and saw the date. its recent

[golden horizon]

no its when i played with hoelander

the worse the lobby the less rating u get

so i choose to play strongest lobby for more rating

[merry plank]

post your rating gain/losses from your last bunch of games xfactor

from the top so i can line up with replays

[golden horizon]

its already up there

[proud portal]

he did @merry plank

[merry plank]

what category is this?

[golden horizon]

large team

[merry plank]

0.38 lost for this game https://bar-rts.com/replays/95a47166c947d1f5520997725e0d6247 with relatively low people

[cosmic cairn]

Lock thread when??

[merry plank]

https://bar-rts.com/replays/d8927566d7dad73b71c0c8795a36681a
0.46 gained with relatively high people

i don't think the average OS really seems to matter all that much in terms of what you will gain/lose in my experience

[golden horizon]

timkobob 46 there

average os doesnt matter, what matters is enemy top 3 players

[merry plank]

i see.. you left that out.. let me see

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=a19671661959a75495618bc586333ec1
0.33 gain

i don't know where you get 3x and 7x.. it really doesn't seem that is a big factor in the OS gain/loss

[golden horizon]

if u play lobby with full of people under 15

look at that 0.08 game

[merry plank]

highest after you was 23.17 (less than half your OS) in that hades ponds game and it wasn't anywhere near a 7x multiplier is all i am saying here..

i certainly have seen big swings between games.. but i don't know that this is the reason

[golden horizon]

i had 3, 7 , 9 rating in my team which massively gave more rating

[merry plank]

you were playing with 3, 7, 9 OS people?

[golden horizon]

in that hades game

[merry plank]

ah yes, facts.. sorry i don't have much experience playing with so many low people

[golden horizon]

well only lobby that was up to be played

[merry plank]

i feel ya

[golden horizon]

i dont have time to sit with my friend 30 min in lobby menu

[proud portal]

i'll let yall finish but i can say to me this conversation is not necessarily consequential, as i'm not concerned with how much os xfactor was able to gain doing what he did to say that i think the game would be better if people didn't do that thing in the future

[merry plank]

just to round it all out for the 0.08 game this was it i think https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=0d156b66f368286b294c324b4b30ae2a

but i don't think you can quote that 7x as the norm.. your other games are nowhere near that kind of multiplier and i would argue that you've played in plenty of noob lobbies that gave around the same amount OS as your high level lobbies

[unborn swallow]

I think issue is player think OP glitters lobby belong to a group of people, OP glitters lobby was much better before those APE low skill player took it over by being constant Boss.
OP lobbies don't belong to any group of players but whatever, at least the real OP lobby is still playable and not filled with idiots

[golden horizon]

i mean I obviously dodged all the super low level lobbies after that 0.08

[merry plank]

the very next game was on glitters with a 0 OS still

[proud portal]

ad hominem

[merry plank]

https://bar-rts.com/replays/f91b6b66f91fd17d7891fc83ab9e6634

[golden horizon]

min rating of random player doesnt matter as i said

i only care about enemy top 3

and lord james 44 kinda not too bad

because if the top 3 are close to me then the teams are more balanced and u get more rating

[proud portal]

its clear that you dont care about most people in the lobbies you join

[golden horizon]

bro its all welcome lobby, anyone can play

[merry plank]

doesn't seem to matter about top 3.. maybe top 2?

[golden horizon]

i guess top 2 is also ok

[merry plank]

i've always been curious myself so i want to know

[golden horizon]

if u are 55 and there is 2x 35 and even 6x 0 rating u get so much more rating than 8x 25 rating

[snow garnet]

How is any of this relevant to the conversation around High OS Takes

[merry plank]

do you lose a small amount for losing against 8x 25s or do you lose a large amount?

[proud portal]

xfactor's position is benefitted by continued derailed conversation

[golden horizon]

every game u can type $explain and if enemy has no high os, the deviation is high, and my team would be stronger, so expected to win and i get less rating and lose more

this game does not full balance

[merry plank]

is the deviation number the only thing that matters?

[golden horizon]

so i dont have 90% winrate in 50% expected games, but 90% in like 65% expected games

[merry plank]

in terms of what the game will give/take away at the end

[golden horizon]

deviation is the difference of both teams total os combined

[heady dawn]

All of what is happening now is just determining just how much Xfactor gained from playing with hoelander

[golden horizon]

its like in 1v1, higher os gets less rating

[proud portal]

this would actually be an interesting statistic although it would take a bit more work to tease out: what is a players winrate realtive to expected deviation

i dont think the balance explain statistics are part of the replay api

so i would have to recompute those on my replay database in order to collate those statistics

i dont have a version of the balance explain that works offline though

[merry plank]

why if you are against 8x25s do you assume you'd get less rating.. what if there was low deviation because it managed to balance well?

[golden horizon]

for example if im against 8x25 they have 200 rating, but my team would be like 1x55, 1x15, and 6x25 so in total 220, 20 rating stronger, 10% deviation

game does not fully balance os

its not gonna put all weakest in my team just so we get same total rating

[merry plank]

imagine though that it did manage to add up to the same number on both sides even though the other team had 8x 25s.. would you expect a high amount of OS for it?

[golden horizon]

if both teams have same total os, u get normal rating

only when a team is stronger or weaker u get more or less

[merry plank]

kk.. so it doesn't really matter about the top 2-3 highest OS.. it's just the deviation that matters according to what you've said.. and also according to what you've said (and also what i've seen) it typically won't even try to perfectly balance in that situation.. it kind of gives up

[golden horizon]

idk how it exactly works but the game first balances lets say the top 3 players, then the next 2, then next 3, not all at same time

so even if there was technically a visible option for 100% same os, the game would still make one team stronger on purpose

[merry plank]

yeah i've seen games like that

i appreciate that it doesn't give all lowest people to one team.. but yeah.. also is rough to risk so much OS for so little gain

[golden horizon]

and now when u consider that the game made me have stronger teams on purpose it aint so surprising i won most of them

[ocean fog]

do we have a rant channel can someone link me

[golden horizon]

effectively this could mean i was considered as 35-40 os in some games while i was 50-55 in exchange for less rating and more loss

when i think about it more i feel like the system was exactly designed like this so that high os doesnt suffer playing with weaker ones

[merry plank]

Yes I could see how being 55 OS and having 2x bases and only counting as a 35-40 OS could be unbalanced

You’ve won me over

[golden horizon]

i mean u dont get what im saying because u dont play 1v1

why should 40 rating ever play 50 in 1v1?

its always unbalanced basically

[merry plank]

Just because I don’t play 1v1 in BAR doesn’t mean I can’t think.

[golden horizon]

its not what im saying, what i said is because u dont play 1v1 u have no connection to 1v1 rating how it works

[hearty briar]

i dunno just ask dev how balancer works

[merry plank]

More OS than opponent means less gains if you win more lost if you lose. Not a hard concept

[golden horizon]

exactly

i am expected to win my games, that does not mean unbalanced

[merry plank]

Same being true in team games for total OS just with some funny balancing

[golden horizon]

the enemy team is not supposed to play for 50/50

[merry plank]

It means the game itself is unbalanced. The stakes are supposedly balanced to make up for it.

[golden horizon]

they play basically knowing they will most likely lose, but if they win they get way more rating

[merry plank]

It doesn’t make the match any more balanced though.

[hollow zealot]

There are 3 obvious separate aspects to the ‘sharing abuse’ that contribute to giving the recipient an advantage:

1. One lab versus two, saving the resource investment (at the short term expense of build power). This alone leads to a unit advantage for the team with fewer labs
2. Concentration of units to one player, which in practice gives more units to someone with superior micro
3. Concentration of economy to one player, leading to quicker exponential scaling

The fundamental challenge with changing the rules to forbid the strategy under question is that it is not one discrete strategy that is being used, it’s really the force multiplier of utilizing multiple sharing tactics in unison

None of the individual aspects would really be considered abuse in isolation, it’s really just the skill employed to use all aspect in unison that creates a big imbalance. That to me just feels like superior skill

I would be willing to bet that evolving the meta to have one backliner not make a lab and instead funnel early resources to a frontline player while making wind would actually go a very very long way to countering ‘sharing abuse’

Regardless of OS

[golden horizon]

exactly it is just refusal to play optimal as its "too boring"

if entire player base would improve then this problem wouldnt be there

its nearly a balancing issue at most rn

[jade falcon]

well, you don't solve the problem of it legitimately being too boring by just getting better

[merry plank]

I am imagining a world where if your bottom OS doesn’t go corner and feed the highest OS then people get pissed off. Kind of like when air doesn’t go coretex for OP shuriken.

[hollow zealot]

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we all discover that the most optimal thing the backliner on ATG can do is not make a lab, make wind, and run around upgrading t2 mexes for the whole team

[ocean fog]

at this point are you even playing the game?New player coming in would just be excluded cause extremes of communism. Also being a battery is not fun for everyone.

[golden horizon]

no one said u need to use tryhard strat in nub lobby

if u want fun u can have fun, if u want to be winning then u need to play the best

nubs can always just put max rating on lobby to exclude all tryhard

[ocean fog]

im a play 4 fun player

[golden horizon]

if u consider the top glitter lobby a "fun" lobby without tryhard u can also exclude 45+ os player or something, as too high rated player play too optimal for u to have fun as average player

if u truely want the best of the best in glitter top lobby then better all learn communism

[merry plank]

(With your lowest OS slave)

Recruit new people to BAR to use them in this manner because it’s optimal

[hollow zealot]

I think you can have it both ways

[golden horizon]

some people want to carry , some want to afk, some want to support, who are u to say how they should play

[merry plank]

I am Cheetah

[hollow zealot]

Fun lobbies and try hard lobbies aren’t mutually exclusive,

[ocean fog]

i rarely play in those lobbies anyway. I just want a mid level lobby where everyone just lobsters. Play 4 fun makes it so i dont care about being the best in anything. Fun trumps my wanting to play how its suppose to be played being meta slave doesnt seem fun. Played league semi seriously before and playing to win is not fun. Force to play the same way every game just so I can win. Just sucked the fun out of the game for me anyway.

[hollow zealot]

You can have multiple lobbies or even make your own which mixes the two

[viral ether]

That sounds op

[golden horizon]

right and then u probably want to play in a min 10 max 35 lobby or something, most optimal fun

[ocean fog]

ye

[hollow zealot]

There’s no sense to the line of reasoning that optimal strategies should be banned because you just want to have fun

Nobody is stopping fun - and by the same token playing optimally is fun for some people

[ocean fog]

we should have the option of not having it. If we dont want to play vs optimal strats.

not fun to play vs it and forces a optimal strat response

[golden horizon]

high rated people play too good for people who just want fun

[merry plank]

I don’t want to play against optimal strats, but I don’t have a choice.

[golden horizon]

but u are playing optimal urself

[hollow zealot]

I have a lot of sympathy for that position

[ocean fog]

Well just my opinion anyway doesnt matter

[hollow zealot]

It’s partly the punishment for having high OS

[merry plank]

Jk there are all welcome lobbies. There’s always a choice

[golden horizon]

u dont get high os by randomly playing air, or snipers, or paratrooper or whatever

[merry plank]

That choice is just a different kind of punishment

[heady dawn]

Same conclusion the mods came to actually

[hollow zealot]

also the elephant in the room that we’re all missing is that xfactors OS is so high now that he literally has to 1v8 most games and can never chill

He has optimized the fun out of his own BAR experience

[ocean fog]

sadge

[golden horizon]

true i can never play a game again without dodging team mate and playing on carry spot the most optimal and high apm way

[ocean fog]

definitely not for me. I want to do random stuff sometimes.

[merry plank]

As if my OS is so far beneath that I wouldn’t know anything of this struggle

[viral ether]

If that was the case the ape guys who play entirely to rush lol cannon should be gone xd

[merry plank]

I just don’t play with two bases at my disposal

[golden horizon]

and i only do when i play with hoelander,

like im not forced to play absolutely most optimal yet

[ocean fog]

ye was also against lol cannon start anyway but its either that or 1 hrs games i think rather have the game end at 30 than not get lol'd. Its the same anyway same gameplay for an hour.

[golden horizon]

maybe at 70 os or something i would need to lmao

ima bounce be back later to our daily conversation lmao

[smoky path]

Look at how ppl played in the 8v8 tourney. Teams who planned decently didn't make 8 labs. Though all the builds were really rough since it was the first time ppl were actually trying to win as a team in 8v8

If and when this style reaches casual games, it's a question of whether it's fun, and if not, should it be balanced to be more optimal for everyone to produce units, or just let it be, or change the CoC to ban players from playing well

[hollow zealot]

It’s probably less about your absolute OS and more about your OS relative to the similarly skilled player base. If you’re 20 OS higher than Raikoh on the other team you’re going to struggle

[golden horizon]

actually before i go:

[golden horizon]

i could see that when u get high os u could eventually like almost farm infinite as the game would give u stronger team on purpose maybe

[unborn swallow]

The god Cheetah

[dusty marten]

What's bullying is hoelander joining my discord channel and calling me a pussy as much as he possibly could in 30 seconds after I kickbanned xfactor from the lobby

To which he messaged me shortly after saying be apologized for his childish behavior

[merry plank]

Aw he apologized

[golden horizon]

i think u kickbanned him and then he wanted to know why or something. but when i saw what he did i told him to apologize

[merry plank]

Wow he takes his actions in discord from you too

I need a friend like that

[golden horizon]

as if most apes can think for themselves and not do as u say lmao

[merry plank]

It’s literally ape clan. They ape

[golden horizon]

hoelander is responsible for his own actions, but he is young so he needs some guidance once in a while lmao

[merry plank]

Young cub will learn

Probably when you toss him aside at 25 OS

That was a joke. I wish you guys a long and fruitful BAR relationship.

[faint elm]

fruitful? ayooo

[faint elm]

Im happy you saw it

I hope you can forgive me

[dusty marten]

I never held it against you, times are tense currently, I hope we can have friendly encounters in the future

[faint elm]

me too

[dusty marten]

[faint elm]

[hollow zealot]

[HOE]Near

[green moon]

Get a room

[faint elm]

photoshop...

[versed gulch]

This seems more like a design/dev issue than a moderation one. I'd hate to see the coc changed for it. (I highly doubt that will happen. )

[sour python]

realistically the coc shouldnt be going out of its way to say that players cannot do something that isnt blocked normaly

[cosmic cairn]

Again this is not a CoC issue. It is a balance one for coop. It needs to be fixed, it's game breaking. That is all! Please return to regularly scheduled mudslinging or go 1v1 for honor.

[amber condor]

Drivver so what you're saying as a contributor is, you wouldn't mind if all of Bar became a hot mess of more than 1 player regardless of OS donating everything to one guy in order to pretty much matchfix their way up the ladder? It is an extreme case but this whole thing is an extreme case

I am not saying hoelander's or Xfactor's intend was to do it but it's what had happened and if the Bar team gives a clear "go" on it, it will be used way more since it became known for more people than before

I''d hate to see it happen but hey imma call good old OneViking or Tarules or Skank if they wanna get boosted up the ladder a bit with such strat knowing I have enough micro potential for that, there's more than 1 spot that can "support" a player outside of Glitters as well so

They are either below half my OS or a bit above half my OS so this should give me a pretty clear chance of getting 90% win ratio

[sour python]

im fine with that due to the requirements to make that work
people forget that bar is entirely driven by team play and economics

i meantion the COC directly as its a horrible way to make changes
the COC does not truely stop behavoir
it just gives the reasons for moderation action

i should note that battery playstyles are not new
infact they were known about pre winter apocalypse

[amber condor]

I am aware that such playstyle was known but it's being taken to extreme cases, there is a clear difference between hounds and getting fed from 40th second of the game. Hence my question, is this gonna be what Bar is turning to?

I know that morality is one thing but it won't be taken into consideration when there will be a green light for such strategies for everyone to use, just find a high OS player and oh hey I am now 30 OS

[sour python]

the strategies are perfectly fine and valid
what is ultimately the question is how to frustrate battery play styles

battery playstyles requires a lot to be viable

[cosmic cairn]

Depends on map, but these playstyles are basically broken and unfun to play/play against a lot of the time. It's detrimental to the game/ player experience, the above, overly lengthy conversation is a sympton of this, but there are many threads that have discussed the concerns about boosting at length.

[amber condor]

This part states that there is nothing wrong about it and I will not take it out of context of how to balance the strategies but by saying that there is only one simple thing that comes to mind which is "green light for abusing it". Counter argument used by XFactor himself was "hoelander could be even higher if he played alone but he's teaming up with me so he can get there faster", if this argument wasn't taken as "Hey I am basically boosting someone by doing what I am doing as well" because let's be honest, it doesn't increase the coop's skill by feeding someone since start then it seems like it is fine to do it at any given level without any problems. And yes I agree with @cosmic cairn that it is extremely broken and unfun to play against since most maps rely on early game advantage that you build up on all positions so that being said I am taking my stand and since there will be nothing do about it, I am more than happy to achieve number 1 by using simple strategy. I've been ignored on certain topics by the staff team and left on read, I am aware we're all humans but I don't agree with what's been happening regarding some issues, regardless of this I won't mudsling anyone. Let's just see if the game becoming like this will have an actual impact on perception of such strategy or not.

[empty orchid]

What if we could balance for it? Just hypothetically...(I think I have ideas about how to do it in my head, but it's complicated, long term roadmap and it means moving away from OS and the way it currently operates)

[sour python]

honestly this is really an OS issue first
not a case of a strategy being good or bad

we dont choose to ignore you
infact anytime a dev is answering its probably because they dont want to ignore you

[cosmic cairn]

id say this is a balance issue, and not really at all an issue of OS. (I do appreciate devs replying/engaging btw)

[amber condor]

I'm more than happy to see changes being made, the text above was to made people realize how much it can actually change knowing it's not gonna be punishable. The best strategies are always being abused by people in all the games, be it RTS or MOBA games. Changing OS system wouldn't be bad knowing that people just hunt for this number currently with no morals or rules to their strategies.

[sour python]

hoelander is a case of how the OS system has an issue
he is a very low OS player which gives a number of advantages

[empty orchid]

The two are related unfortunately, because we use OS to represent both concepts even though they're different.

[amber condor]

Regarding this, I've been ignored regarding other issues that I've talked about before and I'm yet to get a response from the team despite over a week passing with no discussion or proposal to change things.

[cosmic cairn]

ya I agree, it's just the coop mechanic itself is more problematic to me than the interplay between it and OS. I also think quantifying that would be a nightmare rife with more issues than OS already has

[amber condor]

I am not saying I'm being ignored on this thread since You guys are being active and trying to fix an issue that could easily grow in size every single day, that being said I've had open discussions where at least I thought I'd get a response in reasonable time. I am aware an admin being online doesn't mean they are available but considering the time passed and how many people I see on and sometimes talking i main channels, I feel like I can safely say that I've been ignored regarding certain things

[wide kettle]

If we're talking about removing the incentive for ranking purposes...

• All ranked games are done via queue
• If the queue results in a game, your rating is updated -- regardless of whether anyone dodges/etc
• Either no parties, or all parties are ranked based on that unique combination of players. If you queue later with a new set of people in your party, you get a new party rank for that group.

But that's a pretty big departure from the current way of doing things. From the other side, https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1253060706039890000 is probably the best way to attack this from a "remove undesired gameplay" angle -- and is probably more likely in the short-term.

[hearty briar]

afk boosting takes no skill so anyone can do it, os which just represents your past record of winning games

[wide kettle]

That PR also has the advantage of allowing people who enjoy battery-play to do so in their lobbies, while those who don't enjoy it can disable it. Fairest solution IMHO -- let everyone play how they want

[hearty briar]

so boosting is making os not neccearily based on traditional bar skill

since you can just afk give all your stuff your way to 25 os

[sour python]

i should note that the GDT has already said no to that being a part of the base game in the past
which is why its a modoption (which was allowed)

[empty orchid]

I, and I think a lot of other players, really like the sharing mechanic in BAR, and coop play is almost intrinsically tied to that, of which the sharing and boosting and op takes is one logical extreme. Most suggestions on keeping it while dealing with it have already been dealt with in economics so we know they won't really work while the mechanic more or less remains... And I personally want the mechanic to remain

[wide kettle]

I can guess why, yeah

[sour python]

you should have access to that channel
do you not have access to #1047235203308986459 ?

[delicate shale]

While this is true to me it isn't a huge issue simply because there's a myriad of ways to game the OS system if someone wants to waste time doing it mostly as a result of lobby based matches.

[sour python]

btw i should note im not a member of the gdt and cannot make the decisions
nor is any of the moderation team a member of the gdt

[wide kettle]

I have access, but I don't usually monitor it -- I try to leave developing to the devs 🙂

I see the thread though, I'll check it out (thanks!)

[hearty briar]

yes but they still involve playing the game

big difference in playing bar fantasy draft league (dodging) and a strat that requires exactly 2 clicks: ctrl-A give at the start

[delicate shale]

Not really... You can have friend(s) install the game and just have them give you wins for slow free OS gains if you really wanted to.

[hearty briar]

that's against terms tho

[amber condor]

It would fix issues with some modifications, I feel like t2 should be allowed to be shared regardless of time but resource sharing debuff is not a bad idea, also making a timer does fix the issue, it's a temporary issue tho and the OS boosting will exist outside of the rule being implemented in certain lobbies only

[empty orchid]

There's several weaknesses of an OS or any other of the related ranking systems that are potentially "exploitable" that id rather not get into 😅

[delicate shale]

Yeah I didn't want to get detailed on ways to exploit OS that aren't necessarily covered in CoC for obvious reasons but just wanted to say that OS has many ways to exploit it so boosting potentially making making OS not accurate isnt really a huge deal to me while it works the way it does in general.

[empty orchid]

Trying to get an individual skill estimate from a team endeavour, some may argue, is itself opening the door to contradictions and exploitations, but a lot of these problems appear organically because people like to play in different ways.

[amber condor]

OS boosting is one issue, the game being simply not fun and immoral in such ways is another that should be addressed, it's proven by multiple points that on it's basis, it has only 1 downsize, human micro late game and only positives for the player using such ways

[empty orchid]

So I think there's two issues: the actual mechanics and the leaderboard/OS/balancing issue

I think the mechanics should stay a part of BAR myself, but that we need to adjust how we rank individuals and teams and balance the games

[delicate shale]

Yeah this is where I agree with some system to account for parties in OS eventually but personally am against limiting the ability to share between team members in the vanilla game (option for it is fine obv though)

[hearty briar]

there's no way to balance it. just vote kick them if majoirty of players feel like it's ruining their match quality

[empty orchid]

It's the latter that results in people having bad experiences, because I don't think it's shown/given that two really good teams playing the share strats results in bad games, just that its incredibly hard/rare to get two really good 8v8 teams together

[hearty briar]

just like if I made a bot that just gives all base to highest os teammate at start

that's not punishable cause it's not leaving it's a in-game strat

leaving is optimal so how can you punish leaving 🤣

[wide kettle]

You better get your younger sibling to run that bot for you -- one account per player

[empty orchid]

Yes, leaving is optimal with enough of a skill disparity

[merry plank]

Is “player” defined somewhere?

[hearty briar]

on some positions they are playable enough that one player can pilot a communism on both mexes

[merry plank]

My cat has shown an interest in playing.

[hearty briar]

if chisato can play 8 coms you can play 2

[wide kettle]

I think in the CoC we just use "someone", with no further definitions...? If your cat can open a ticket to appeal their ban, then they might count...

[merry plank]

Pretty sure I could set my cat up with some advanced widgets until he gets too high OS and I must move to my fish.

[empty orchid]

Start training Kitty.

[merry plank]

Why ban? I have a few computers.

[wide kettle]

For toxicity, of course -- its a cat, are you telling me they are kind?

[merry plank]

Got me there lol

[empty orchid]

They'll push the commander off the edge of the map! (Sorry back on topic)

[dusty marten]

my dog vs your cat rn 1v1 full metal

[cosmic cairn]

id suggest the recent tournament suggest the complete opposite. With boosted commie airlab comdrop simulator. Is that really what we want to see at the highest levels of play/skill expression. I don't.

[merry plank]

this reminded me of this support post: #1161330653325955182 message

which i must now update to include a cat

incidentally, my cat is black so we could make this happen

[hollow zealot]

I would play with that cat

[empty orchid]

Well, given I haven't looked at the games take what I say with a grain of salt...I think there's two issues there. First is whether t1 transportable com is good... Second is whether there haven't been enough high level 8v8 matches for teams to come up with counters (say optimising away from the standard starting positions) and learn the map specific plays and positioning

[tawdry panther]

Here's an OpenSkill implementation that doesn't use a single number to represent a players skill. It uses a vector of some kind, more than a single number. I haven't dug into the details yet.

https://openskill.me/en/stable/api/openskill/models/weng_lin/plackett_luce/index.html#openskill.models.weng_lin.plackett_luce.PlackettLuce

[smoky path]

its not about how good a team is, but how tightly they are coordinating

in casual games most ppl dont want to do an assist role, regardless of skill level

[empty orchid]

Yeah, so there's another social aspect of BAR which is interesting...

We seem to have a default of all games being ranked rather than unranked

I don't think it's wrong, but I think it's interesting/relevant to all these discussions

There's inherent tension there between "I want to chill" and "all these games contribute to your public score"

[smoky path]

because you want ppl to be accurately matched in the games where they want to chill

for tournament games, you have teams set up by other means than the balance algo

[wide kettle]

The easy way to solve that is to have a separate rating for leaderboards (+displayed next to names), and for balancing more casual lobbies. But that would presumably split the playerbase, and in practice I'd expect that everyone would consolidate to one or the other.

[empty orchid]

I'd go so far as to say make leaderboard/status just winners of scheduled tournaments + events

I've got no problems with making/keeping balance stats public, but i'd wager there's probably bordering on almost no real skill/statistical information within say +- 2 of any OS number

Even more so now with higher uncertainty for longer...

In my proof of concept i'm probably going to try to just keep players to whole integers

But you could use another concept like leagues/ranks

As the reasonable outcome of pretending there's meaningful distinction between the decimal places in some of these numbers drives people to emphasise all these microoptimisations to grind, dodge, exploit and eek out every advantage and overoptimise to avoid anything not in their own favour

[hearty briar]

competitive people want an os number. In starcraft they obscured it with a division system and people used third party systems to figure it out

normally speaking, os is your ability to carry and win team games, which is a skill. if os was never shown i don't think plp would wrack their brains for ways to how to carry

[empty orchid]

I mean, that's sort of presuming it's OS under it all though

I can derive an ELO for instance for all the 1v1s which is another competing metric

But we don't use ELO. If we moved to another model that better predicts balance/matches, you can calculate OS all you want, good luck to you, but you'll do worse.

You can always try to make up one float to represent everything I suppose even if the underlying model is discrete or conditional or multidimensional

But it'll probably suck and be contentious, which is why I presume people haven't bothered to do it with our own multidimensional leaderboard

I.e. tried to calculate one underlying OS for all our different game types represented in the current leaderboards to find out who's cuisine reigns supreme!

[smoky parcel]

I've played a lot of games with different forms of rating systems. Some of them have tried to hide that rating system from full transparency to the playerbase. Two things almost always happen 1) the players find a 3rd party way to view their ratings. 2) if there is no way to view or understand the rating system the game becomes less competitive. Perhaps making BAR less competitive would be attractive to a portion of the playerbase, but from my own perspective it would make it far less interesting as a game.

[empty orchid]

But there's hiding and there's "it's just not really applicable"

Like could you draw up a heat map of decimals to derive areas of the court in basketball where you get 2 and 3 points and all points in between?

Sure, but it's pointless because the underlying metric is discrete, all points scored are either 2 or 3.

If your rating system has 50 discrete buckets (pulling that number out of my butt), and those buckets aren't derived from a single underlying hidden float, you're not hiding anything

Now sure, you could derive a single float to try to describe them all in one shot, and you could do so in many ways, but what would be the point?

Especially if that one float both predicts things worse and results in worse balance.

I mean, don't get me wrong...people are petty...you'll still see arguments like in professional sports where fans will be like "player X doesn't deserve to be in the big leagues what a phony" and endless debates about who's the greatest and there will be grudges and egos

And you know what's a good way to "settle" those debates: actual events and tourneys.

Rather than dodging and bitching 😛

Then we just gotta worry about the buttplug widget...

[hearty briar]

os is a float, it just gets rounded?

[cosmic cairn]

YUP

[alpine oxide]

Ok guys,

I was discussing this on stream with stardom and I was not quite happy with the dedicated building, but I believe I have finally solved the problem with an elegant solution. This might not solve it 100% but it will probably solve 95% of the problem and not cause cancer to regular players...

Ready for it...

I am quite excited about this...

1. Make a basic lab of any kind required to share units or resources outward.
2. If you do not have a basic lab, you cannot overflow to team (this could also be a 65% tax or w/e).
3. Cannot share your only lab

Done, that is it.

Simple, Elegant, and not Cancer to new players.

This will kneecap any of the early communism strategies alot because the 650m makes a huge deal.

[alpine oxide]

OK so further discussion problem is if someone leaves you cannot take or they are wiped out you cannot take

[hearty briar]

what about assisting a lab?

[alpine oxide]

So basically you cannot assist a lab without owning a lab, or your BP goes to Zero.

[hollow zealot]

how to play hooked

[winged kernel]

Should an energy storage count as a lab? I vote yes

[empty orchid]

If we went down that route, I'd rather have a dedicated building that enables/disables trading...

But the issue of actual takes vs trade remains

[hearty briar]

in the end of the day it's just communism but slowed down by 600m

it does take the edge of early strats, and if you already have a lab you are encouraged to think about using it

[alpine oxide]

Yea thats why I am for ANY lab and not a dedicated building

The take issue is the bigger problem that might need another clean solution

Maybe while player is disconnected they can overflow 85% and be /take as long as they have a lab

Otherwise they auto slider down to 0 and 85% overflow to team

just problem is could still be abused

Maybe there is a tournament play option that just gets rid of option for a take

[smoky parcel]

To play devil's advocate. If we grant the premise that coop/sharing/taking/battery needs to be curtailed or eliminated. Why not make the answer simple? No sharing, overflow, takes, coop, assist building etc for a certain period of time at the beginning of a game. No need to make it more complex, or throw in some arcane knowledge that new players won't understand. Just throw in a timer(5mins? more?), perhaps have it counting down in the game, then a big bright text alert flashing across every screen announcing that overflow/sharing/coop is enabled again when that timer ends.

[hearty briar]

t2 mex timing dictates so much of lane matchups. removing t2 con sharing from teh early game might be a good thing ...

in some mode, anyways

[snow garnet]

Just gate sharing behind commander experience. Don't have .25 XP? Can't share. Commander dead? Can't share. Easy solution

[smoky parcel]

that would be amusing to see frontliners able to share, but not the 0 dmg techer in back.

[misty fossil]

the solution is actually much more simple

https://tenor.com/view/joker-simple-kill-batman-gif-18043660

[jade falcon]

very far from elegant

[jade falcon]

for a certain period of time at the beginning of a game.
Because of this. You'd make the game behave differently based on an arbitrary timer that's either hidden or polluting the ui.

[hearty briar]

basically, do you care only about early mid-game communism or at all timings?

and do you care about t2 con sharing

players probably want a way to get back into the game if they lose all their stuff, so sharing cons is not a bad idea

anyways anti-communism is more tailored for hardcore players (not neccesary to put it in the base game)

if that's the case, then gameplay and stratgetical depth and breath should be favoured over, whether it takes 1 vs 2 minutes to explain

[jade falcon]

should be favoured over, whether it takes 1 vs 2 minutes to explain
Strongly disagree with this

[hearty briar]

there are pages and pages of strategy guides, are you saying radar is too obtuse a mechanic?

[smoky parcel]

You're not making an argument. Every balance related issue is ultimately arbitrary. As far as polluting the ui, it would be no different than the visualization of something like the grace period in PVE or announcing the queen. Both of which are quite popular.

[hearty briar]

wtf is a depth charge? why do lasers miss ticks?

[jade falcon]

wtf is a depth charge?

[hearty briar]

i think a key part of this game is to let plp play how they want

no reason to force this on average player unless they care enough to vote it in

[jade falcon]

If you've got a laser weapon on a grunt, having it deal 40 or 80 dps is a balance decision. Having it deal 40 dps for the first 5 minurs of a game, then 80 afterwards, is needless overcomplicated junk, even if you think grunts are op in 1v1 early

[smoky parcel]

so you're against flanking dmg?

[jade falcon]

Flanking damage behaves consistently, predictably, and intuitively

[hearty briar]

intuitively is a stretch...
surrounding something is not as good as strafing it

[smoky parcel]

the bulk of the playerbase doesn't even know flanking dmg exists, nor is it particularly visible

[hearty briar]

the issue is with the timer aspect, right?

no rush 20 exists? let plp play how they want?

[jade falcon]

but the bulk of the playerbase will intuitively guess that if you surround a tank, it's going to blow up faster than if you shot at it only from the front.

[hearty briar]

i would never say delete that modoption just because i think it's arbitrary

that's not the case in most other rts tho

[jade falcon]

the issue is with the game behaving inconsistently based on an arbitrary parameter, in this case a timer

[amber condor]

Okay, Imma said what I've already said in lobbies I host, as soon as Chronopolize's mod will get approved, I will implement tax on sharing resource, ban on sharing buildings/units except for cons for at least 10 min, unit market for t2 sell so people don't cry about resource and it will stay that way

[hearty briar]

i haven't integrated with unit market yet... are you able to code?

[jade falcon]

you can be less strict with a non-default modoption than with a default balance decision

I'd be just as much against no rush by default

[hearty briar]

yeah i don't think this should be in default game. the timer at least

it's just not a benefit to enough plp to warrant

[jade falcon]

Then you're not solving the problem for the majority of lobbies

[hearty briar]

?? most lobbies don't care about communism it's just higher os lobbies

[amber condor]

A lil bit, would take a bit if i looked deep into it but it should be possible to merge those two, also it should work with unit market no? Unless unit market goes through resource sharing instead of add/remove resource to player's pocket

[hearty briar]

where communism is op af i don't want to do it every single game. and have my battery not playing the game. and face roll 50% of the games, where my opponent isn't boosted.

[jade falcon]

XLive demolisiong Cheetah and XLive demolishing random noobs is a problem in both cases, or in neither. This doesn't change because only one of them complained loudly

[hearty briar]

yeah i believe you can use a different function. like set owner or something instead of the more normal shareUnit

[jade falcon]

fwiw I hate the unit market too, talk about ui pollution

[hearty briar]

how does it pollute the ui?

it makes doing a task easier and more visible

[smoky parcel]

If communism were in every lobby, and every game. You'd see immediate outcry and huge demand to change it. Because it is very rare, with only a handful of players abusing it, it has been able to be ignored for many years, before BAR was even BAR. And it is probably why sharing/coop will remain part of standard games for the forseeable future.

[amber condor]

I don't like it but if it's the way we have to go, I'm willing to adapt for the sake of making the game fair again

[jade falcon]

Making something more visible is by definition polluting the ui

[hearty briar]

it's abusable but infrequent so it's seen as a cool rogue strat w/e

[hearty briar]

okay just play cinematic mode with everything disabled

[jade falcon]

so you're going to ignore a problem in low os lobbies because nobody is making use of it, just as it got ignored up to this point in the high os environment?

[smoky parcel]

No, I'm merely stating the reality. Personally I'm for nerfing coop. But the bulk of the playerbase is not there yet.

[jade falcon]

To be clear, I'm also for nerfing coop. But a timer ain't it.

[smoky parcel]

what is your ideal solution then? total removal?

[jade falcon]

I don't know
Tying it to an in-game mechanic is also burdensome, but at least better than a timer.
Total removal is the nuclear option and leads to a completely different game that I'm not sure I'd like

[snow garnet]

I dislike an arbitrary timer, because maps are different. 10 minutes is not the same in DSDR, Rosetta, and Flats for example.

[jade falcon]

A mechanic package I'm unsatisfied with but is at least better than a timer:

• Energy and metal share completely disabled. Overflow is wasted until a storage is built. Storage either allows overflow into teammates, overflow into you, or both.
• Assisting allied construction is disabled for every unit that's not a nano (possibly combat engineer as well).
• Unit sharing only enabled for units, cannot share buildings. Nanos classified as buildings.

So the best case for 1-lab coop is you build a lab and force a con out yourself, gift it to your ally, and have the ally build a nano next to your lab. I think that's enough of a delay?

[tawdry panther]

Make commanders multiply all resource incomes by a sub-linear amount.

If a player has a small income, their commander multiples that and adds an additional small income.

If a player has a large income, their commander multiplies that and adds an additional medium income (this illustrates the sub-linear part).

The optimal play is to ensure all commands have a roughly equal income. This also discourages the eco player from sacing their com.

Scale the exact multipliers accordingly. If balanced right it wouldn't change the game that much, but would subtly punish some (and maybe only some) of the communism shenanigans.

Idk, just a crazy idea.

Might need to disable com giving.

Another formulation of this is, make it so the command can act as an especially effective e-converter. The optimal play is to ensure each commander is receiving enough e they can convert and contribute that way.

[hearty briar]

lazurus sucking trees or rocks is the same or better than eco structures, butlers and sea cons are also effecient bp that can be given

if nanos can assist I'll just drop nanos to boost lab

give me con I'll make nano near your lab

[tawdry panther]

I also think all these solutions are worse than the problem. It's only one player causing problems (hoelander, since we're naming them in the open this thread). And the problem isn't even that bad, effecting only, what, about 30 games of all BAR games played.

Cheetah makes his case well with those statistics. I've looked them over and I think Cheetah paints an accurate picture.

If a players winrate drops by 70% when a simple condition is not met, they are sandbagging.

In this case, if hoelander doesn't play with XFactor, his winrate drops 70%, from about 85% winrate, to about 15% winrate. That's an insane spread that I personally don't believe can happen naturally.

As contrived example, if players were randomly assigned Cor or Arm every game, and a player won 85% of their games with Cor, but only 15% of their games with Arm. That's not natural, that's sandbagging when you don't get the situation you want.

[hearty briar]

it's quite the reversee

they are doing completely valid things (playing a low skill strat allowed by teh game using a low os player because the strat requires no skill)

[jade falcon]

laz on trees is a slight problem, but not as bad as the rest of the coop

[hearty briar]

it is a big problem, just give your laz to techer they get t2 out by sucking metal and trees on your side of map too

[jade falcon]

spending the time to drop nanos to assist a lab delays the assist by at least a minute, more if you account for the bp lost building the nano, and you can't assist with the com

[hearty briar]

on maps with trees laz is as effective as t1 geo or more

[jade falcon]

I think that's enough?

[tawdry panther]

I'm saying the inverse. The problem is not hoelander giving XFactorhis units; hoelander has obviously found an effective strategy for this case.

I'm saying the problem is that hoelander doesn't employ the same effective strategy in all the other games he plays. It's sandbagging. The problem comes not when he is sharing his base, the problem comes when he is not.

[hearty briar]

nothing int he game forces you to play your best strategy all the time
or best role

[jade falcon]

actually that's not enough for something like a tzar rush

[tawdry panther]

Is sandbagging allowed?

Is intentionally playing to lose allowed?

[misty fossil]

no but hard to prove

[tawdry panther]

It's always a judgement call, but when the spread is 70%, it's pretty hard to deny it's intentionally losing.

[hearty briar]

he could just be bad/inflated

unless it's blatant, there's little point it's not provable

[tawdry panther]

I mean, I can't get over how insane this 70% spread is. It's closer to binary than it is to 50 / 50. It's a statistically significant spread too. There's like 30 games with XFactor and 30 games without XFactor, a good number of games in both categories and it's still a 70% spread.

[hearty briar]

if you are 10os inflated you will have a 30% win rate

[tawdry panther]

Fine, that's double hoelanders winrate without XFactor.

You'd have to be 20os inflated to get hoelanders winrate without XFactor naturally. I don't believe that happened without intent.

[hearty briar]

i d/k you'd have to look at the games

building winds actually requires like 5 os skil so shrug

maybe he really is 20 os inflated

or actualyl soft throwing

[snow garnet]

It's all relative. I watched a dude with 4 APM spam tidal in a newb lobby and his team won. He was trying his hardest

[misty fossil]

need a new thread to discuss deliberate game sandbagging

[tawdry panther]

I doubt that guy has a 70% spread on winrate based on a simple condition like if he's playing with his buddy or not.

[snow garnet]

Probably not, but I think even I have some insane WRs with some players iirc

[tawdry panther]

A spread can happen by chance, but not when you have 30 games in both categories of the spread.

It's like, flip a coin and get 4 heads in a row. Maybe it's just luck? Flip a coin and get 30 heads in a row. That's not a fair coin.

[hearty pawn]

chrono you are arguing for a way more "pure" non-sharing gameplay than others, thats why its hard to find a solution which everyone agrees on

imo sharing / overflowing / coop is part of what makes BAR great but i can agree on the extremes of it needing some curtailing. so the major point of contention is to figure out whats the threshold of where sharing becomes unfun?

[snow garnet]

I agree that sharing is what makes BAR great, and it's why I still think the simple fix is just a team wide building for sharing at each tier. If you wanna delay it further it doesn't even need to cost that much, just make it insane BP cost

Sharing is only really an issue at the start of the game imo

[hearty pawn]

i wonder if somehow making the intel that m/e/bp was shared from one player to another visible to the other team could solve a lot of the related problems.

[misty fossil]

early game scouts can get intel

[tawdry panther]

In general scouting doesn't happen enough in this game. It's so uncommon it's a game issue more than a player issue I think. (A tangent for another thread, and one I've created other threads about.)

[green moon]

Thats the idea I'm advocating, but devs dont wanna hear of it. Not elegant enough

[empty orchid]

My win rate on the 20 or so matches before the season reset: I think roughly 10%

My win rate on the 20 or so since: I think about 71%

On the earlier one is because I started playing glitters and straits

On the latter because I started playing rotato

I don't want to get banned, and I've said this before...I technically know enough about OS that I believe I could raise my OS and winrate if I so chose to, and I similarly know enough that I'm relatively confident I'll lose or win certain matches before I start, and I could arbitrage more, but I have neither the desire nor the inclination (nor the time). I don't believe I partake in sandbagging or any objectionable behaviour though, nor would I say what I do is deliberately lose, even though I don't play optimally deliberately

[lavish ledge]

It's simple;
The 100% best thing a low skilled player can do is give up the entirety of their ressources to the best player.

Of courses theres going to be a >70% spread for this strategy when a low skill player does or does not do this strategy, even more so since it was with the highest os player.

Also 30 games is very far from statistical evidence. Especially in 8v8 format as a new player with high uncertainty

Any 0 os player, could learn this strategy and have >80% win rate. It's so simple and so effective for them:
Game starts -> give commander away -> share metal and energy -> put share slider down -> profit.

[lavish ledge]

This wont work, just make arm bot lab, tick on repeat and share ressource like a slave.

They can even spam solar or metal storage and have the higher os reclaim them, to bypass the sharing tax.

The slave's mex can be reclaimed and rebuilt by the higher os

[smoky path]

or just dont have a guy build mexes of a start position at all, start as front as you can and just walk forward making llts

then a strong player can expand to that empty start spot

[hearty briar]

if my team is ready to go t3 and i win a navy lane, it's brain dead for me to feed the metal to my eco/geo player for them to make for t3 or for eco to convert it into afus much faster than I can

oh you have a geo on your map? never build a converter again, you are fueling your air player for a bombing run that uses 0 converters and instead gets energy from team

if I'm the one who has to spend my metal, there's decisions

do I make sea eco, do I put my afus on the shore (can use naval engineers but more exposed)
do I start a nano farm in the back?

this ineffeciency/transition challenge is skill expression

at least with a tax there is a choice

you can always send metal instantly to help another play, or if you had the foresight to adjust your transition while you were winning, you can spend your metal yourself + lab cost

[jaunty owl]

after slave builds mexes and shit, just self d com, 1250 metal op

[hearty briar]

the only reason why you wouldn't want to give com at second 0 is overflowing. need to wait until carry builds their lab, give 500 metal then give com

[tawdry panther]

We could also do something like the first 1000 metal a player builds is "free". The first 1000 metal spent by each player comes from a special resource pool that cannot be shared or transferred. This would mean optimal play involves every player building stuff and contributing early on.

[hearty briar]

that seems very complicated. a whole new resource pool

just tax sharing, balances it for early mid and late game

[cosmic cairn]

Wouldnt think it'd be too hard to count against a 1000m total...but idk if I like it as a solution

[tawdry panther]

Variations could be something like, the commander comes with a "pool" of 10,000 (or whatever) metal, and that metal pays 5% of all build costs until it is exhausted. Cannot be shared or transferred. The game wouldn't feel much different other than the beginning of the game would move a little faster and early sharing / giving shenanigans would cost the team metal.

Maybe that's just a complex way of implementing a tax.

A tax has a lot of open questions though. If I transfer metal is that taxed? What if I just give 8 T2 mexes, is that taxed?

A tax sounds nice and simple, but it doesn't actually address the reason this thread was created, a player giving their com right at the beginning.

[bitter laurel]

just make coms not transferable, and some units have much more tax than others, like mexes and energy converters have highest tax, but simple units zero tax

[tawdry panther]

Is overflow wasted then? I don't like that.

[bitter laurel]

"you can gift your units, but efficiency of gifting mexes is too wasted" and overflow is overflow

[tawdry panther]

overflow is not taxed?

[bitter laurel]

well it can have some tax, thats why its an overflow and thats why you should avoid it

[tawdry panther]

overflow is a 100% efficient transfer of resources to teammates, I mean

that's how it currently works

[bitter laurel]

I know, but I was writing in hypothetical situation where tax is in place

right now overflow is almost good because you assist your teammates that are weak in something currently

[cosmic cairn]

Overflow isn't as scary to me because it's not focused transfer to one person

[bitter laurel]

but it should have some slight tax also, because right now its like "why dont we make big metal/energy pool for whole team instead of sharing and overflow"

lol I thought why not make gamemode where everyone can use everything and pools are shared, just for funzies

like 1 color for whole team

but yea, control is hard to implement this way

[hearty briar]

taxing overflow requires adjustment of engine code

[bitter laurel]

well then leave at least overflow as it is, its much harder to abuse it

[heady dawn]

Overflow is usually just bad for u anyways

[hearty briar]

in practice overflowing is ineffecient since it's spread over entire team. if the whole team put slider down you could loophole this but it's very obvious and intentional if the whole team do it, if you are using tax sharing resources the agreement is that neither team use this exploit

[bitter laurel]

well and using nano to help is also hard to rework looking at how engine works...

so communism is hard to limit in this game

you see - communism is the most natural thing!

[ocean fog]

its fine to kick communist from noob lobbies then ye? just keep the concept and ban the communist

[proud portal]

overflowing is suboptimal for that player only. its not necessarily bad for "you" in that "whats good for the goose is good for the gander". Wasting is truly bad, but your point still stands

[alpine oxide]

Would overflow tax really not just be able to change via a simple multiplier? I am sure there is an equation somewhere.

[hearty briar]

tax overflow (not tested)

[alpine oxide]

So chrono I guess you could do this as a modoption just like the hornet balance pack ect

[hearty briar]

it's inside the engine code so it's more like adding the engine's ability to set overflow tax which the game code can use, when modoption is used

don't expect it anytime soon tho

[alpine oxide]

I see

So basically its a core change that would allow the MOD OPTION 😦

[cosmic cairn]

eh, that balance pack is full, too many changes already

[alpine oxide]

I was just thinking there might be a "hotfix" that could be a giant copy paste lol

then just sneak in ticks +10000% hp and +1000% dmg

[empty orchid]

I admit i'm not entirely sure how we got onto overflow when that's barely even materially relevant on OP takes or communism. Overflow is barely an impact on anything. (and where it is maybe impactful, say because your team went all wind and wind is good so you cheapen out and build an energy storage instead), then that sounds like individual skill expression to me.

I admit also some confusion as to earlier in the conversation where people are trying to make special loopholes to allow t2 con sharing while being against other sharing. You ever played against a lane opponent where you can't share but your opponent can, it's just as shitty and arguably there is no individual skill involved in your backline giving you a t2 con when your opponent doesn't. I am not a fan of balance or engine changes enacted with the goal of supporting explicit metas.

Admittedly, i'm also a little bit confused about the line between acting as an early battery and a late battery for other players on your team: in half of the games that's what most eco players are (ok, maybe the line is a bit more blurred in high OS, so arguably off topic), but one form is ok and fun and the other isn't? The later form often just involves waiting longer to find out your team has been out-sim-citied compared to your own backline 0 damage player and isn't exactly a great feeling to go up against, but again one is ok and one isn't? I don't want to sound like an Xfactor apologist, because I'm not sure its great gameplay, but i think there's a little bit of truth to an arguement of "oh no, team game is playing like a team game not fair!"

[jade falcon]

Same reason the timer is imo a terrible idea: it's inconsistent and unintuitive. A package that fixes sharing also has to fix overflow to follow the same rules, even if the overflow itself is not currently a problem

[jade falcon]

I've only seen players intentionally build fusions to overflow in high-skill and especially team tournament games. Your average 10 os backliner probably had no intention of funding your entire team, or the opposite, has no clue how to make units and thinks they're helping with just the overflow. So let's set the 10 os player aside and focus on the pros.

Is it a problem for someone in the backline to build evergy in the lategame with the intent of sharing it to your team?

[hearty briar]

oveflow is just a form of (automatic) resource sharing. by setting your sliders low you can just cause the game to transfer your excess to a specific person

[heady dawn]

Doing teamwork in lategame is fine imo, thats the stage where ppl are either dead or have a running base : ) -sharing fus energy for teamwork is a strat that I think sounds good- tho where I am mainly opposed is towards building labs together instead of having seperate- t2 lab rush is acceptable but I dont like it- t1 lab communism should be designed to become unviable tho (-maybe ex. on glitters make it just a 6v6 map)

[faint elm]

Aaaaa

[visual heart]

Any chance the strat can be reversed and hoelander does the OP take and XfactorLive gives his base, till midgame at least? He could coach his partymate on voice. Would be interesting. Do report on the results if u guys ever want to try it out.

[velvet hatch]

This thread is crazy 💀

[cosmic cairn]

One of the threads of all time to be sure