#Buff legion dgun

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

strange sphinx
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The legion dgun is vastly inferior to the normal dgun. In the late game, the lack of ability to dgun t3 units is so crippling. Likewise, the early game legion dgun doesn't feel better than the classic dgun. It can't be spammed the same way, and it does minor damage. Thus, there is no trade-off; instead, it is worse at all points in the game.

Likewise, buffing the damage of the legion commander at level 4 to counter t3 units seems like a recipe for breaking the game balance.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

rotund vigil
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just dgun must be a dgun like other commanders

opal anvil
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legion coms are complex, we're aware things need changing in various ways, exact conclusion unclear yet

harsh wagon
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I plan to be working on this in roughly one month. The fix I have in mind is to make the napalm launcher burn effect persist after leaving the AOE. The flames would be extinguished by repair or water. It would also be percentage based so all units die within the same amount of time of being burned.

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That leaves the aggressor with the choice of suiciding their units into the enemy base, or pulling them back for repairs. Hopefully just a different flavor of d-gun in effect.

strange sphinx
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Basically, I would like to run lobbies with Legion on for playtesting/fun, but with the current quality of the dgun I don't think it will be useful. The cornerstone of frontline play is using your commander for zone control, and without dgun, your zone control is a lie.

I think two temporary solutions are to write tweakdefs. One would be to give the legion commander the normal dgun, and the other would be to buff the legion dgun to the same infinity damage as well.

I will try to sort out the tweakdef after work.

harsh wagon
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Set the evolution customparams for legcom to nil and it won't evolve anymore.

strange sphinx
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I think people are overestimating the complexity of the situation. We should just default to legion coms being the same until a balance pass happens, and there should be an option to turn the current behavior on to test that in the lobby menu. Without doing that, what we will end up with is a vastly inferior faction that people will not want to play/test. We have had the legion dgun issue for what seems like a year or more. If we put off doing a basic hotfix to it, then it can be dysfunctional for another year, and we will have a lot less information on how to balance the other legion units in the meantime.

Case and point. Here is a replay in which the game was decided due to a marauder push and the com being legion and unable to dgun.
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=c2455e669628643a865faed5f2fca443
The most impactful thing in this entire game is the lack of dgun. Without it, we lose hard at this point, but with it, the game goes on.

Sorry for the amount of salt that I displayed during the game. I really want to play Legion, but I hate feeling like it is throwing the game.

BAR Replays

Replays of Battles once fought!

latent elm
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If the legion dgun is actually decent runs the risk of it being better than other factions during laning- tho some kind of buff on top of 500 e-cost is badly needed

timid tusk
strange sphinx
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I can't tell if their units are better tbh. I haven't played enough games with them currently, but that also means they don't feel wildly overpowered.

I mean we have a legion balance thread already. I think we should transform this thread into Plz hotfix legion so they have the same com as cortex or arm.

opal anvil
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it's not as simple as a 'balance pass', the com was designed to act as is it does, and balanced differently. the question is if that is now scalable and acceptable fair at all levels of team size, game stage and player ability/APM, which IMO as is, it isn't. what we can do about it is then a huge other question, without a quick answer.

strange sphinx
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Replace legion com with core com, until someone is actively working on balancing it.

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14 words, and 84 characters. Pretty quick answer tbh.

narrow trellis
strange sphinx
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Yeah, I have been waiting a year for it to get fixed. It will not be fixed realistically for a long time. If you want balanced feedback on Legion, make it playable by fixing the com.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

Perfect is the enemy of good

Perfect is the enemy of good is an aphorism which means insistence on perfection often prevents implementation of good improvements. Achieving absolute perfection may be impossible; one should not let the struggle for perfection stand in the way of appreciating or executing on something that is imperfect but still of value.

worn ingot
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just coming to chime-in that I don't use legion mostly cause the lack of a d-gun. i just can't justify using them without a d-gun. it's too much of a disadvantage.

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yea i'd love to go 1v1 with legion to get you folks feedback, but i can't do that with the current legion commander.

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and all the other stuff IS SO COOOOOOOOOOOL!

worn ingot
opal anvil
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it's something we're aware of, I'm actively trying to fast track some meantime measure until/if the com can be reworked in some other way

worn ingot
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excited about what you end up doing, all the legion stuff is pretty cool. even the commander, but the arm and core being clones kinda makes it rough when you switch to legion and the toolset is just gone

opal anvil
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different toolset, with different power spikes, but agreed especially at endgame

potent path
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I just don't get what the idea would be not making it have a dgun and not have a cloak ultimately, there is evolving commanders option for spicy commander mechanics. When ever I see a legion com on the front lines in games it's always "Oh, that's a free 1250 metal right there" and just rush surround it with units and reclaim, it's also a free "detonate nuke in middle of enemies frontline mass". It's not that the legion com can't be used as a valuable unit as it still is the most powerful single unit in t1 by itself, but its just not in the same tier as normal coms.

Some things I hope to see legion com have in the future

  • Evasion - Cloak would be nice and I don't see any reason why it doesn't have one currently, but this can be something special if you want like some kind of short range tracking jammer, I don't know I'm trying to think of something spicy like a cloak but is cool and hip in a legion fashion so maybe it goes blue and covered in static electricity and anything targeting it is as if it is shooting at a 0 pinpointer radar blip, even whilst it can see it (and even if team have pinpointers)

  • Ability to insta kill other units, Idm how that is achieved, ie if napalm ability is kept or not but it needs some way to contend with t3 units like regular coms can to be taken seriously in a competitive environment

narrow trellis
eternal kettle
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Legion com balance isn't urgent bc it's not in ranked game and I like a lot of the playing around happening with it, I am a legion dgun malcontent as well but trust the process

potent path
eternal kettle
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I have the legion com wrecks to prove it lol

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Caveat legate

strange sphinx
eternal kettle
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I didn't know you even could play legion ranked, so I'll clarify I absolutely wouldn't

strange sphinx
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Yeah, the default is that if you turn legion on, then it will still be ranked. I have verified on the website that lose/win with legion on does change OS.

worn ingot
opal anvil
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@everyone legion com update just went live, it's much more standard a com, with normal dgun and laser. Some variance still exists but nothing drastic.
...assuming that ping works here

sand badge
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@opal anvil can legion llts not be dodged by tick 💀

opal anvil
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@narrow trellis

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they should be functionally identical to normal llts

sand badge
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From my testing its impossible to stop ticks from diving whatever structure the llt is supposed to defend

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Llt just misses target

raw hedge
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Probably #1164194636579995678 ?

narrow trellis
narrow trellis
# sand badge Llt just misses target

They're not mean to miss ticks entirely but they do have a harder time against it
But yeah put it into balance complaints
Ideally you'd use the pop-ups in conjunction with heatrays to cover for both strong and trash unit spam

narrow trellis
potent path
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the legion laser is soooooo cool, such a nice pew pew pew sound