Make Juggernaut Great Again

[remote saddle]

its just so incredibly slow that nobody does it

[solid sage]

man, i'm looking forward to some possible changes that you described as they seem in right direction

would love to see some rise of Lrpc-s

[acoustic nexus]

i think they have use, when the blue player makes a mid lrpc that can snipe nanos and random eco on 5 of your guys bases
you feel the pain. shield is incredibly expensive and bad tempo

[timber minnow]

If you make 1 lrpc and the enemy team makes 2 shields, you're already ahead without firing a shot.

Not sure what this has to do with Juggernauts, though.

[timber minnow]

This elbow-cannon. It should do something. The biggest blob of plasma in game. (as an active)

[remote saddle]

there are no existing animations to support that and i dont think the juggernaut needs another weapon really

[iron cloak]

It has like what 8 weapon entries or some shit. Blocks half the screen when u hover over it already. We don't need more pew pew but better pew pew

[rain topaz]

LRPC

[thorn cedar]

Krogcrush would help the unit a lot op

[frail void]

just change aoe?

[timber minnow]

Half of those don't even do anything. Juggernaut should have a lot of pewpew. xD

If nothing new, then just buff the Uber heatray, imo. So it can better poke Thors and Titans and stuff.

[timber minnow]

BIGGER plasma. Like, EpicTzar plasma. xD

[solid sage]

or 6000 lasher missiles in a bundle

[remote saddle]

Krogcrush doesnt deal damage to anything except walls

someone made a tweak that changed it to deal damage to everything but then you have the issue of friendly fire

could literally walk past the GEO spot and stomp the advanced geo and destroy an entire base

[crimson sun]

Aka unkillable given that that unit damage is balanced around flanking damage existing plus the fact you never get 200% flanking dmg

[thorn cedar]

they could add a toggle button to activate the effect

[crimson sun]

Yall seem to forget that unlike a lolcannon jugs are built in the backline and don't require constant air cover plus massive energy cost plus the fact they are beaten by shields and Aldo don't require 100 air cons to build

[timber minnow]

does that outweigh the fact that jug takes 2+ minutes to influence the other side of the map, is a huge dgun risk, is defeated by its value in thors (without flanking), also needs to be protected from air, and shields cost 3.2km + 500+e/s to charge (very expensive to defend against lolcannon)

ive seen many many more games ended by lolcannon than jug

it basically costs a team more than a lolcannon to build enough shields to defend against lolcannon

[timber minnow]

_>"

jug also loses extremely hard to value in kargs and shivas

not to mention Pulsars.

[timber minnow]

just tested value in t1 factories (8) + nanos (a lot) + grunt spam (60 each factory, 480 total, 17280m) ; the last few grunts killed the jug just as it killed the factories, crossing glitters frontspawn to frontspawn

[crimson sun]

But you don't do jug vs grunt spam in a game
I've seen this strategy used before:
Build a jug and walk it into the Frontline to blow it to smithereens them push up with supporting troops
If you where to do this with a lolcannon you cant because mid is currently contested and takes 2-3 minutes of protection to build

If people use it then it's balanced
And I've seen many high os people use jugs

Decrease metal cost slightly and call it a day

[inner sleet]

bruh walking Nuke rly what u want Jug to be?

[inner bear]

it's really not that simple

if the best that can be said about the unit is 'well it's sometimes useful when it dies', something went a bit wrong

[limber forge]

Bigger issue is why ever make a jugg when you can lol

[acoustic nexus]

i used the titan self d to reasonable effect once

jug needs to have a smaller normal death explosion (~450 like the titan self d size), and needs some stand out trait to justify being the most expensive and slowest
and no, it's poke weapon alone is not enough

[timber minnow]

The point being, just about everything beats Jug for value in a direct fight. It also can't do enough poke damage in skirmishes to justify its cost before a LoLCannons comes up. Pretty much only good case use is for the memes.

Vs Value of Pulsars, Jug doesn't even kill 1.

[acoustic nexus]

lolcannon is seperate issue, can 2x or 3x nerf that

[inner bear]

jugg is also less useful even considering that titans are just better units, as there is one of them for the metal

and a commander doesn't even die after dgunning it

[crimson sun]

A single titan is better than a single jug?

I'm calling bs

[inner bear]

you will get more done, and sooner, with 2 titans than 1 jugg

[inner sleet]

Yes jug needs a buff. Weapon buff pls

[still jackal]

a lot of this seems like people misunderstanding how to use juggs

if youre getting your jugg dgunned its because you have no vision not because its slow

[acoustic nexus]

you need like a rain of junos

[crimson sun]

Don't junos damage air cons slightly

[timber minnow]

Junos do 1 damage on impact to all units in the blast zone.

I think the junos are relevant in this case because sneakypete (cloaked stealth field), which conceals commanders for dgun

[iron cloak]

this is fine to me except i really want to make sure any sub except siege sub will die, just like right now, same for gunships etc, else its too easy to cheese the man

case in point subs is THE counter to titans because they dont kill the subs upon death.

[timber minnow]

What function is Juggernaut supposed to serve that cannot be fulfilled otherwise or cheaper?

[sleek kernel]

The fact it can damage a multitude of units in a line is an important role

[timber minnow]

So can nigh everything else in Cor kit; it's all aoe. Can Jug do it better for cost than kargs/shivas/catapults ? Like 15 Tremors, lol'

[inner sleet]

I would say Jug is more of a tanky walking pulsar🤔 -t3 starlight lol (-currently I only recognize the laser on it)

[sleek kernel]

to answer the question
juggernaut dgun does damage each frame it hits a target
its very good vs cloaked stuff ironically which also happens to counter jugg @inner sleet

[inner sleet]

the dgun issue doesnt even need to be taken into account- dgun is a universal issue, affects Thor

[sleek kernel]

the jugger uses the same weapon type as the commander dgun
its functionally the same

or am i missunderstanding your point

[inner sleet]

Behemoth? Is that the unit u mean?

[sleek kernel]

the old names plus new names keep screwing with me

[inner sleet]

oof, we talking bout korgoth, behemoth is good tho

[timber minnow]

bah, kids these days, with their hip slang and jiving jargon. humbug. ;P

[timber minnow]

Eradicator HeatRay range 900 --> 950 , same as the missile, so a fight command doesn't stop just short of using heatray ?

Double rocket reload speed, since there are two rocket pods? The rockets themselves are actually not bad, since they have significant aoe. Maybe increase rocket damage a little if any desired 1-shot thresholds

And maybe increase Heatray damage a bit. For all its mighty noise, it does like half the damage of a Pulsar, and a little less than a Titan's. (but Jug has higher rate of fire)

in general increase jug's ability to poke-pressure the enemy into a bad engagement. Right now it takes a Jug like a full minute to kill just a thor, using only heatray and missiles.

[remote saddle]

i increased heatray damage and range in my tweak so it can kill sharpshooters

its one of the counters usually, with 950 range and scouting you will at least be able to shoot back at sharpshooters ones they fired at you

its propably still not a good encounter but if you fire a tac nuke at them theyre bound to get wiped

[timber minnow]

Current jug missiles already 1-shot snipers with 100aoe range and high edge damage, 950 range (more than sniper)

[remote saddle]

yeah but the issue is, how likely is it that the rocket will go where you want it to?

the sharpshooters are only visible for a short time, you know where they are and with manual targeting you could point at them but the standart rocket has a mind of its own and by the time the next one is ready they might be somewhere else.

[timber minnow]

It's a guided rocket. Snipers are a high priority target. Chances are pretty high. Use SET TARGET command for even better odds. (I highly recommend binding SET TARGET and CLEAR TARGET to mouse extra buttons or some other super easy to access buttons; very very useful fo many situations.)

[inner sleet]

Guided rocket to counter sniper makes sense for titan, jugg should have tac nuke tho 🙃

[solid sage]

Seriously, its gonna be disappointing if jug doesnt get tac nuke. Its too cool and fits too good not to do it. Even if other stuff needs balancinv

[frail void]

What if we give it a catapult rocket rack instead

[solid sage]

I mean, yeah, but catapult is such an iconic unit, i still feel it would be a shame to use uniqueness. Yes catalyst exists as well but at least its a building, and jugg would open up its offensive use even more

[frail void]

-retexture rockets
-reduce individual aoe
-make rockets follow original semi-random trajectory halfway to the target and switch to homing

[solid sage]

Sure, but less work to slap on tac nuke as it is, plus its cooler IMO.

[inner sleet]

Ian coded for it (-with help from SethDgame) so it is available

[timber minnow]

just a friendly reminder that juggernaut laser is only 3rd highest burst laser. >_>"

[solid sage]

It is? Damn. What are the other two? Pulsar and Titan?

[remote saddle]

it shoots fast compared to titan and has long range for a moving unit

i made it on par with titan 6000 damage and increased range from 900 to 950

thats plenty powerfull, i just wanted the laser to outrange sharpshooters. otherwise you might just get a unit that drains everything around it while being AFK with no microing

[rain topaz]

The whole point is, the unit cost of the juggernaut was balanced before flanking damage existed. Once that was introduced, Juggernauts' health was effectively nerfed by up to 50%, but their cost was not reduced to take this into account.

The opposite problem exists for ticks, which almost always get flanking damage, but were not nerfed when flanking was introduced, so have been majorly OP ever since.

[rain topaz]

Could be interesting for the Juggernaut

[rain topaz]

Aren't Pulsars much longer range and higher damage?

[solid sage]

Jug t1,5 pulsar xd

[frail void]

it's already done in a tweak

what we do need to add is something that improves jugg's anti-t3 capability

tac nuke can miss, even normal catapult salvo is much more accurate

[inner sleet]

Tac nuke and cata missiles neither have any particular use vs t3

[frail void]

#1234455410644222025 message
modify for better single target?

[remote saddle]

jugg doesnt need to trade well with other t3, when it only costs 26K metal that means its cheaper then 2 titans so its fair to loose to them

and thor needs tweaking regardless because its too strong. Buffing jugg until it beats a overtweaked non amphibeous t3 unit wouldnt make sense

jugg allready has the range advantage and with 1100 range tac nuke you can threaten bases from afar and force the enemy to rush you before its too late

behemoths and demons allready deal with t3 pretty well, demons can do to titans exactly what titans do to juggs just surround and deal flanking damage

[inner sleet]

Rockets are designed for dealing with static stuff at distance, ex. titan rockos should be designed so they can target down snipers but only enough dmg to deal with those

[rain topaz]

It's not fair to lose to the 2 titans, as they are much faster, half as dgunnable, and there needs to be a premium for being the so-called best unit in the game

[inner sleet]

first of all, its 29k metal pls but ye give it buffs

[frail void]

2 Titans only cost a few k metal more, 3 Thor's cost less

It will look or feel absurd if speed or HP is buffed, DPS and weapon quality is most suitable for buffs

[inner sleet]

Its currently 29k metal? The weapons need be revamped/buffed and stuff. Cost decrease just makes buffs to weapons less deserved and makes cost more similar to behemoth

[frail void]

personally keep the price and buff it to justify it

[inner sleet]

I rly like the Jug version ive cooked up 🙃

[oblique shard]

It also makes perhaps sense as eventually Cor is due to get a T3 tank which I assume will fit somewhere between Demon and Behe pricewise. So keeping Jug expensive is perhaps good no avoid too many units to overlap

[inner sleet]

Cor t3 tank is happening? behemoth feels like a tank already but who knows maybe it will be good

[oblique shard]

Hornet mentioned he has it on the list, but of course the list is long. Anyway Cor is a faction the is most "tanky" I cannot imagine they would be only faction that does not have T3 tank. + There is indeed a gap between Demon and Behemoth.

[remote saddle]

Tank should propably get the best metal for HP ratio

maybe besides the behemoth

[crimson sun]

then make ticks unable to deal flanking damage
or give both factions more beamer like lasers

[rain topaz]

IMHO, it's better to remove the thor as the most powerful T3 unit, than add a T3 tank for core, it fits better thematically to make the most powerful units mechs, as in TA and SC

[rain topaz]

Better to make units have varying armour on front, sides, back and top, so that hitting a tank on the back panel with a rocket deals more damage than on the front, the current flanking bonus system mankes no sense from a physical or engineering perspective. Juggernauts could have equal armour all round.

[oblique shard]

This would be neat

[crimson sun]

that would neat

but would be unrealistic to impliment and will neveer be added

im not too sure if spring can do that even

[inner bear]

actually, it's already implemented in code

problem is, what is the front of a bot? and they can turn much too easily

[rain topaz]

Thorax.

The key thing about flanking damage is, you have flanked the unit by surrounding it so, whichever way the bot were facing, one unit would be attacking from 180 degrees.

You'd need really mad micro skills to be able to keep up catching each sniper shot on your tough front armour for more than a couple of shots.

If a real life bot commander knew a bulwalk was going to shoot at them from one direction, and a tick from another direction, you'd expect them to want to face their thicker front armour at the bulwark, rather than the tick. The tick would get a bonus to damage from attacking the weaker rear armour, but that's how flanking should work anyway.

[sleek kernel]

The key thing about flanking damage is, you have flanked the unit by surrounding it so, whichever way the bot were facing, one unit would be attacking from 180 degrees.
this isnt always true
and most of the time isnt true

flanking is wierd like htat

[thorn cedar]

good thing it isn't a military sim game

[rain topaz]

I'm giving one scenario of units attacking from opposite sides, I don't mean 180 degrees from the perspective of the unit being attacked. The way flanking damage currently works doesn't make logical sense, but it would make logical sense if a shot hitting weak rear armour caused extra damage.

[vernal anvil]

Does units have a front and rear side ?

[solid sage]

Not in practice

[sleek kernel]

Yes
It’s on their first hit when the front is made

[rain topaz]

IMHO it should work like this. It's an older explanation, but it checks out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/16bd1mx/how_does_vehicle_armour_values_work_in_30k/

[vernal anvil]

So that front doesn't change after that ? Or is there a cooldown ?

[remote saddle]

So, the juggernaut has double barrel shotguns, but it only shoots ones?
ive made this for fun maybe itl replace the super strong projectiles i added to my jugg tweaks

[raw aurora]

Hello @rain topaz ,

this might interest you - we have nerfed lolcannon presence in our Arrakis lobby alongside pulsar/ starlight nerfs. And since then we have seen people people playing juggernauts and titans, which is quite interesting.

However the reason why I am tagging you is - if you have any idea/ tweak you would like us to test for #makeJuggernoutGreatAgain we would love to check it out.

[rain topaz]

Sounds good. My initial suggestions were double the health, in recognition of the fact that most attacks on it get flanking bonus, or a speed bump to that of Thors, making it faster than commanders, so harder to dgun. Maybe, bith if those together would be too much, perhaps a 1.5* speed bump and 1.5* HP bump would do the trick. Then you might actually find people rushing them, which would make sense as the whole point of the unit is to be the best unit in the game!

[solid sage]

Jugg having tac missile is out of the Q? Seems like the most interesting mechanics to me

[rough moat]

1.5X speed and 1.5X health is like an uncounterable epic tumbleweed

except for D gun

by increasing the speed youre allready reducing the damage the unit takes, because theres less time until it reaches your base so youre basicly trippling the effective tankyness

[raw aurora]

I think the key is to place jugg into cheaper metalwise unit category

while adjusting stats obviously

People want quick games; any game taking longer than 35-40mins is kind of a failure

[solid sage]

But on the flipside, having units tailored to long games is also good. Budget jugg = tears in my eyes

[frail void]

I'd say jugg needs much more dps, hp is good as is and speed could use a small buff

Specifically shotgun needs to be much more powerful

[rain topaz]

How about 23k? Then it's still the most expensive unit, but not by such a large margin. Could declare open season on cheap juggs in Arakis, and see how it goes.

[rough moat]

speed increase is a no go as long as it is a walking nuke

the mobile tac nuke would actually be a counter to sharpshooters, wich is one thing that hard counters juggs wich really shouldnt

[rough moat]

this tweak is allready made no work required, just needs to be tested
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r_K-cAxHgrevdGMlgeF1nDSIFSoqNC6LZTTw711JCfI/edit?usp=sharing

[raw aurora]

Thank you for this; has the tweak been tested in some shape or form?

[rough moat]

it was used on brightworks stream before

it was hard to fully abuse the juggernauts because theyre still expensive, but they did seem to be very oppressive in the very lategame more then titans

and D gun is an issue as allways

in theory 2 titans should still beat 1 jugg in an isolated duel and 3 thors should allso beat it, but in an entrenched situation the juggs are way better because of their range

[acoustic nexus]

each shotgun projectile is now a shiva cannon helll yehhh

why does it say they are equal to shiva attacks, when a shiva is 600 dmg burst,

the aoe is the same tho

[rain topaz]

That's good, they are supposed to be oppressive, game-ending units

[acoustic nexus]

yep, titans arrive earlier, faster, more splittable, jugs need to have SOME oppressiveness in some situation

[granite wyvern]

honestly, titans feel like crap right now, so this would need some rework to titans too if this was to go through

they seem to be only useful in countering sea

[acoustic nexus]

crap compared to what?

[granite wyvern]

in general, compared to that reworked juggernaut, but in particular, compared to thor and stuff like snipers / starlights

[acoustic nexus]

the vangaurd/catapult are supposed to soft phase out t2

[granite wyvern]

its expensive, not particularly fast, low on dps end and with zero emp resistance

and honestly, just not oppressive at all

[acoustic nexus]

titan is like jack of all trades, strength is hp pool and repair

amphib movement and bot moveset is really good

[granite wyvern]

dunno, im a low skill lobster, but from my perspective, its just not good at anything apart from retaking sea. its usually just "yep, send some abductor / thor / some random t2 shit and its gone" type of unit

its more like stronger shiva than anything comparable to juggernaut / behemot, which might be OK, but i feel that there should be some sort of actual oppressive bot for arm too

heck, it doesnt even explode properly unlike jug

[inner sleet]

Idk give titan proportional cost reduction as was given to jugg. Would atleast provide symmetry

[frail void]

Titan is already very strong cost wise

I'd say arm blasters could use more oomph as a counter buff

[frail void]

Completely different thing from Shiva

The game changer is the tachyon main laser and it's insane dps and range

[frail void]

Hmm, didn't know about good repair rate

[rain topaz]

I also thought titans were crap compared to thors, but there was a whole "nerf thors" thread that got closed down because pro players said titans are much better and thors are noobwagons

[raw aurora]

Titans are crap bcs spam just breaks them imo

Thor is op bcs it does not need to give a shit about spam

[granite wyvern]

im sure they have their uses, but i hardly seen them make any impact

always hard countered by some emp, spam, t2 junk, liche, thors or really anything

juggs at least shred smaller units and have large range

[rain topaz]

Titans should get EMP resistance, which should be removed from Thors. That would go a long way to address the balance issues between the Arm late game units. ATM, Thors are immune to emp, spam and T2 junk.

[limber forge]

Titans have the HP pool to ignore spam, it is irrelevant to them. A lot of higher OS players consider titans as the best T3, with EMP being their only weakness.

[granite wyvern]

spam stops titans in place and then just kills them soon later, before they can advance properly. This in particular is relevant when you are approaching from sea and cant provide counterspam. You are probably thinking about something like glitters where you have bunch of antispam things behind your titans, but this is not the case for landing assault.
this is unlike juggernauts that just shred spam and advance

[wheat meteor]

titans do so good against spam what are you talking about

thors have such low rof that spam is much more effective because spam forces thors to have actual gaps in their threat coverage

yeah thors kill spam real good but that's nothing special

[raw aurora]

also easy to stop titan in marching forward; much more difficult for thor (sadly I lose control of titan bcs missclick - but it's too easy to stop titan's advance)

[rough moat]

yeah it allso feels wrong that titan trades bad with snipers

[raw aurora]

It's basic/ normal bar patch (no dev version nor tweaks)

[rough moat]

like sure its anti t3 response, but if you encounter a freaking titan i think t2 units for anti 3 shouldnt work anymore

[granite wyvern]

yep, exactly my experience, it also costs only like 1/4 of metal to execute that and titan leaves wreck behind when dead..

[smoky ibex]

Cant believe Behemoth is better than Jugg apparently

Ive seen more behes than juggs in the games

But yeah Juggs should get their shotties buffed

[granite wyvern]

well, behes are only 2/3 of jugg cost and their only weakness is low movement speed

which doesnt matter all that much since you can just plop t3 lab on frontline

[rough moat]

nah biggest weakness as allways is d gun, but jugg has same issue

[rain topaz]

Spam is never irrelevant, as the tick behind the titan makes the sniper rank in front do double damage. Which makes no sense if you ask me...

[limber forge]

Can make T3 units but not Junos

This is a jugg thread, and there's a consensus from the entire playerbase that Juggs need help, for sure. But to pretend like Titans aren't incredible units that routinely carry high OS games, and that spam is the counter to them... just doesn't make sense.

Not to mention that if you're really that concerned about spam, the same lab makes razorbacks.

[rain topaz]

Yeah, what's going on with thor movement? They barge through enemy units, often seeming to surf them and actually get a speed boost.

[granite wyvern]

razorbacks dont teleport over water... and thats just one type of spam, you can achieve same thing with grunts etc, just the titans are weak overall, thats about it

[limber forge]

I think the vast majority of 45+ players I know consider titans as the best T3 unit, so we're going to have to disagree there.

[rain topaz]

This came up in the Thor thread, it seems like Thors are much easier units to afk click with, whereas titans respond much better to micro due to their nimble movement, hence lower or middle-ranked players were much more likely to consider Thors OP.

[acoustic nexus]

Titan just get hurt alot by opductor

[scenic vapor]

I think maybe it should be made immume from flanking attacks. That it mainly serves as a wall that you push forward to protect your cheaper more vulnerable units behind. Also that Gauntlets in high trajectory mode can't shoot over them.

[frail void]

Huh

Me liek titon cos I liek pulsar beams

Titan go pewwwww

[rough moat]

nah that juggernauts die quickly when you concentrate all fire on them is a feature
the juggernaut is a walking nuke, you need to be able to stop it
the juggernaut just needs other use cases apart from walking into the base and suiciding
when you think about it thats allready the role of the behemoth anyways so juggs main role should be ranged damage and then secondary is self D nuke

making a unit that just doesnt die when you concentrate all fire on them is a bad idea, and D gun would still be available then and propably be the main cause of death

you can still support the jugg to force the enemy to shoot smaller units aswell not just the juggernaut

maybe sending a swarm of medium tanks together with a juggernaut could be the ultimate assist, since stouts are so HP to metal efficiant

[scenic vapor]

Maybe give it a build in plasma shield so that you have to use rockets and lasers.

[frail void]

The main counter to juggs is a laser.

$unit pulsar

[copper forum]

https://www.beyondallreason.info/unit/armanni

[rough moat]

yeah but pulsars are just crazy efficiant anyways