#Improving the State of High-OS Lobbies & the Overall Game

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storm condor
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Instead of players trying to work as a team it's just " why hasn't blue/red carried 1v4 already?"

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This is true for small teams more so than large team, but due to general lack of play it might not be easy to see

thin tusk
dire tartan
pastel sand
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Ain't anyone who has read this thread gonna tell me with a strait face that there ain't been any complaining to authority in this thread, lol.

You can advocate all you want, but imo what you're advocating for isn't going to solve the problem (which has deeper underlying issues), and there are already tools to manually do what you're suggesting (which suggests that your proposal of automation probably won't fix the problem [because of the deeper underlying issues]).

If the problem is trying to get 16 "highos" players in the same room, the primarily underlying issue is that there aren't very many "highos" players to begin with. The game doesn't have a huge huge playerbase yet, and we're asking for a necessarily small % of that playerbase to all be online at the same time, not in another room already, willing to play together, and willing to agree to game settings. Making Priority Queue isn't going to make 16 out of (however many "highos" players, <200? <300?) from all over the world with different time zones and schedules magically come online at the same time and join the same room and agree to play without dodging or drama.

I don't really have anything against priority queue, I wouldn't be bothered if it were implemented, I just think it will add unnecessary complexity without solving the problem it was proposed for.

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Meanwhile, there are active measures high os players could do to improve the player base and get more high quality players, but peeps seem uninterested. ;/

strange beacon
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priority queue only does something when there's 14-16 30+ players and 10 20-30 players all in the same lobby

carmine vigil
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I find it interesting that the players themselves are expected to do everything themselves (yaya its open source blablabla)
In most other games the only control players end up having is what format to play, and who's in your party for team game purposes, the rest is done by the game.
While i realise that this is not going to be fixable until more players come, but it's sort of an unusual thing that the people at the top are forced to do everything by themselves if they want to have an ok time playing the game, and at that point it becomes a chore, which in itself, drives those players away.
Noone's really "forced" to do anything to resolve the lack of OP players, but if the only time they're active is around a tournament, then I guess the game's not meant to have a real competitive scene/playerbase.
Which would also mean that it's a casual only game, and there's no reason to play it for an extensive amount of time, cus there's no goal of being good at it.

strange beacon
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yeah it's kind of an additude problem

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in other games when there's teamwork you can try and support the high rank player so they can carry

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in BAR plp don't think about that, or they just give resources which is very bland and uninspired

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maybe plp need to build more of a teaching environment so that players get interested in learning

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right now the only learning is people copying/reviewing games by themselves, or getting flamed by teammates

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by that I mean encouraging people to get replay reviews, putting basic guides etc, strategical concepts, actual tactics

carmine vigil
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thats what the #🎓｜academy-chat and their incentives are for, so if anything, they all suck at it then

spice temple
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Good thing that’s not actually happening!

sweet bluff
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Why are high os players are supposed to be held to way higher standard than an average player and need to do so many steps and chores to just play the game?

We are all just gamers who want to play quality games.

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@boreal marlin Could you please just lock this thread its so pointless and ppl keep derailing it.

regal charm
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No keep the thread. Its a place to talk about this and its not useless. Sth might come out of it, MVPete already made one good rotato as an inspiration

glossy thorn
pastel sand
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Took about 20-30 minutes to get going. (Initially a lot of competition, including another almost-full rotato minchev) Went out with family for dinner. Came back and this is how I find it. (Big props to Boozha for helping.)

image.png
marble wren
dusty frigate
pastel sand
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wuts that kyouma?

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🙂

tardy pike
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Hey @boreal marlin <@&549291872192036874> I thought off topic baiting wasn’t allowed

storm condor
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Nezah it's just average bar thread experience

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No matter how hard u try it will get derailed by 1-2 people

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Literally nothing to be done

tardy pike
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Oh okay

storm condor
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At this rate it's just acceptance that ur not gonna get any playable games until people somehow get good in next month or two

still seal
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Yeah. Unfortunately a lot of the player base at the highest level are either on a break, have left or is actively boycotting the game. That means choice that you are among the very top of the people active today. The rest of us will gradually improve, but it will take time. Until then try to enjoy being red/blue and help teach us noobs to become as good as you need to make the games playable again.

We did get to play some high OS games yesterday, but not many of you traditional OPs joined. Since you guys stopped playing the rest of us got inflated so high OS doesn’t necessarily mean the skill level you are used to from the past.

carmine vigil
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and another point is that high OS players are expected to teach noobs in the first place.
thats what the mentors are for, and they're all volunteers, therefore they want to teach the noobs.
and if someone asks why do more high OS players not go into mentoring, well thats cus the only barrier to entry is your stance with moderation, and they disproportionately pay attention to high OS players in the first place, guess cus its just easier that way (oh nyo another mute incoming cus trolling, which would lowkey prove my point)

Anyway, fact is, theres very little of noob -> op conversion going on, so either nubs dont want to learn in the first place, or our mentorship system needs a rework.

regal charm
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I mean... Its natural that high OS will teach low OS. Juust depends if high OS wants more good players or couldnt give a crap

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That expectation is very normal imo

carmine vigil
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Sure, but they're gated by the mods/academy managers in their ability to do so, even if they want to become a mentor.
And if they're getting gated, they shouldn't be expected to teach people

regal charm
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Everyone can teach by telling useful stuff ingame, no need to have a title or do it as a job

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I dont wanna be a mentor for example, i have lots to do in life with a kid, wife, job. But here and there i talk to people about strats, units, what to do in said situation, and its a brick in a wall

carmine vigil
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Which they are already doing, but the thing is, they want to play a game, and not teach nubs 24/7
Theres plenty of times where high OS people told the nubs what to do, but they instead get told to "stfu" so they stop doing it. And im talking about the times where it was done in good faith, like telling someone not to build massive windfarms on Rosetta, or maybe when someones making 3 airlabs on 0 mexes.

regal charm
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Yeah what i see a lot is telling in very bad manner. You have to accept that telling in good faith and without insults will give better results, but not 100%. Some people will always respond bad,but with bad attitute, almost everybody will respond bad

tawdry turret
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you are playing the game tho who has time to play and type out a thought out msg

regal charm
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You'd be surprised how much shit can be typed while gaming xd

tawdry turret
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at most you got time for " thats bad, do this " and people take offense to that cus they think its rude

carmine vigil
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You dont usually have time to explain with great detail midgame what to do, because you're laning against another 50os player, and you kinda need to focus on your own thing instead of babysitting 4 different people the entire game

regal charm
tawdry turret
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and yet they get pissed at those msgs

regal charm
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I understand yea, but i dont see many getting pissed for getting directions

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Only some stand out in that sense

exotic pawn
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Ye my pings are usually “jaguars” directly on their lab

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It’s not like offensive

alpine ermine
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the easiest way to learn this game is to watch high os players play against each other

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currently that doesnt happen, so overall as a community the playerbase doesnt improve

exotic pawn
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I mean i learned from watching high os players

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And a lot of the winter era players too

alpine ermine
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yeah same, i'm from the same timeframe. speccing high os games is the best you can do imo. Especially as u gain experience and start understanding their strategy. At that point only your own apm stalls you to start replicating builds and then your own ability limits if u can came up with your own.

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Imo the game should foster high os lobbies as much as possible, but I feel some of the devs have aversion to several of the high OS players and just bag them all together as toxic or whatever.

tawdry turret
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new players dont want to improve imo, no idea how to change that or if we even should

exotic pawn
alpine ermine
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at this point i think new players have no tools to improve, the only thing u can get from current played games is aneurysm (no offense to the currently active players, its just the quality of the games is very low and they are kinda stuck at them)

exotic pawn
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Imo as you said morli , some devs are against some of the most “special” high os players , that are usually toxic or trolls but this is not all

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The fact that all the high os are entitled with “toxic” is something I cant understand, if you check moderation records you have insane amount of low os and noob games dgunning each other bases or speaking about breaking CoC all the time so not sure why this common belief.

In my opinion is because it’s easy , it’s like saying “oh I’m not good like them , let’s say they are toxic” is lazy af

tawdry turret
regal charm
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Cant agree that you dont have opportunity to learn from high OS in current climate. Specing anyone above 30 is gigalearning for newbs, no need to only watch 300os

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I learned so much from raikoh, laudi, spookie, indaclub, not real, its unreal

swift olive
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Really funny how the bar devs market the game to competitive players with their tourneys or even the streamers they get to promote the game but then once you get good at the video game you then realize most of the higher ups BAR devs actually like to shit on players that can play the game for real and have absolute no idea what to do with those players, so all they can think of doing is driving them away.

gusty vortex
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thats why steam release is taking so long, they are all busy conspiring on how to make life worse for u

golden fractal
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I am for sure getting more frustrated/ irritated/ sensitive with each month (week?) playing. Is it frustration? Arrogance? ... or perhaps bad environment? Not sure what is the cause - but I sincerely feel like I am not alone - and this might be a widespread issue.

It feels like it's just too easy to** burn out in BAR **- and this season it's like everyone is burning out (probably bcs of uncertainty??? ).

-- Not ideal view: but I guess I was looking forward to grind to some decent os - get small uncertainty and then "try less" - and just enjoy the game...

-- For an example in League of legends: You grind your main to high MMR at the start of the season and then (most of the time - casuals) just play decay (1 game per day) into playing on smurfs/ alts where you "enjoy the game"/ "experiment" with builds/ "learn" new champions/ strats/ help/ play with friends/ normies.

-- In BAR I feel like the** grind (race) never ends** - I wanna play BAR, but I also feel like I am more and more tired while enjoying the game less and less.

--- Perhaps the issue with High-OS lobbies is "burning-out" effect? How to fix? **No idea. **

carmine vigil
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madge 1 year since i asked for cat ears for my comm and we still dont have it as a reward
boooo!

cosmetic rewards would help, or anything, really.
some flavour stuff for tourney participants/winners
reaching top whatever on the leaderboard per season could also be rewarded with smol tokens

hexed basin
# golden fractal I am **for sure** getting more frustrated/ irritated/ sensitive with each month ...

-- For an example in League of legends: You grind your main to high MMR at the start of the season and then (most of the time - casuals) just play decay (1 game per day) into playing on smurfs/ alts where you "enjoy the game"/ "experiment" with builds/ "learn" new champions/ strats/ help/ play with friends/ normies.
You've actually got the manpower to populate unranked lobbies if you feel like it. Why not?

golden fractal
# hexed basin > -- For an example in League of legends: You grind your main to high MMR at the...

I think it attacks one more problem - right now - for many "os means nothing" while for many it also does not mean much, but it still means something - it's like a motivation that keeps us playing - but with that motivation missing... there is very little reason to play?

I don't really know where the direction should go; however, it is evident that the more competitive you are/ higher os you have - the higher chance you will disappear/ play less.

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Perhaps if there was some type of motivation outside of the game itself to grind? Perhaps some type of an achievement system that would motivate people to play unranked/ casual?

tawdry jacinth
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Unranked can literally be gamed at the moment to have better than 50% winrate. You get better but the rating stays the same. I'm unsure why nobody plays unranked just to get super high win rate.

golden fractal
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or even cosmetics I guess

hexed basin
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I sincerely doubt it. Low os people disappear all the time, and we wouldn't even know they were there

golden fractal
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Like once rat gets into the trap... it should stay there o.O

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Rats (elite players) should not be escaping the trap this easily imo

vague temple
# carmine vigil and another point is that high OS players are expected to teach noobs in the fir...

im not high os but i understand basics about the game. i just got kicked from a coop vs ai lobby because the noob boss got mad that i was voting to reduce the barb ai bonus because we had new players that didnt know the maps and didnt know what units to make/when to tech etc. this was in a lobby where five lanes collapsed eight minutes in after a guy started air on flats and other typical noob mistakes. you cant expect high os players or players in general to try and help new players at all when this is the response you get for trying to help noobs. i was going to play in a chill ai lobby in my morning but ig ill just go play other games instead.

ppl can cope about how somehow its everyones faults that we arent cultivating more players at our respective level but at the end of the day when you dont have the expectation of trying to improve and play the game you are just trying to shovel crap up hill. you cant even try to make settings in the lobby without some toxic bozo kicking u. this is not a culture that is tolerated in the op rotato, op straits, or op glitters lobby from my experience in watching. arrakis lobby seems to be the most stable and they are the ones kbing and speccing noobs and "non meta" players regularly. why bother helping noobs unless they approach u first tbh

opaque wedge
marble wren
steep quiver
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bro i want to play the game not babysit someone, not half the lobby especially

deep tartan
frank hatch
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The complaint that they have to hard-carry or lose seems like a big problem. Hard-carry gets real old after a while.

storm condor
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there are alot who literally respond negatively to any advice

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and it makes me not want to go openly and advice everyone in lobby

steep quiver
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some ppl literally wont even notice what you say to them

golden fractal
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From my point of view - nearly all players hate backseating (for some reason?)
-> our players seems to prefer learning on their own... only minority is looking for the outside advice/ help

pastel sand
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You're not "expected" to train newbs. It's just something you /could/ do if you wanted to more high level players.

storm condor
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like #🎓｜academy-chat is more of newbie-on-newbie interaction instead of mentor-newbie interaction

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i do, i give advice to anyone who reaches out

steep quiver
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most people who want to actually gid good either dont need advice or reach for it themselves

deep tartan
golden fractal
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Which you come with - most of the time bar cannot change that

storm condor
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to me replay analysis feels often useless bcz u mostly learn by watching what to do, not by "what not to do" and u eventually figure out what not to do by it

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learning from mistake is something i can and other already experienced players will learn from

pastel sand
storm condor
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newb training lobby doesnt make sense bcz i cannot rlly 1v4 due to my OS and have spare apm to make calls

pastel sand
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=_=
That's not how it usually works, lol.

storm condor
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Jammacus MVPete Leila and some more often play with an all welcome lobby so the players should eventually learn by playing against them

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like i learnt how to counter liche rush by getting liche'd 10 times + from mbt when i was 27os

frank hatch
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Seems like a usecase for that "team captain" version of spectator who can only see their own team.

storm condor
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pepeyep you mean airplayer

vague temple
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blame air

marble wren
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But need enough people to be willing to be playing to improve, and people willing to help herd sheep. Some exist in both camps, but not in a critical mass, it seems.

minor sierra
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losing matches would feel less bad if there was some reward for doing well in the game

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like losing less os

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based on some kind of personal score

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some games have mvp awards

frank hatch
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The purpose of OS isn't to make you feel good about yourself.

minor sierra
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if someone is consistently preforming at a high level his os should consistently reflect that

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he is not somehow 15os worse after some mixed lobby matches stacked against him

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and than his os skyrockets again

frank hatch
minor sierra
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that can happen to players who spam out alot of games

frank hatch
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To the point that players who played a lot of games asked to have their games matter more for their OS.

marble wren
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Ironically that was one of the pushes earlier in this thread.

minor sierra
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fair point yes

frank hatch
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The complaint now is that losing already sucks, losing because you didn't carry hard enough sucks even more, and losing tools you previously had to build a lobby where you don't have to hard-carry every game makes you not want to play at all.

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I'm not a member of the group affected by this, but the issue is obvious.

minor sierra
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that is why I tried to come up with something that would make mixed skill lobbies more appealing

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I think we need mixed skill lobbies

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and they can be fun

marble wren
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It is good for the higher OS crowd to periodically interact with weaker players, if anything to remind them that bad habits can be punished. When that's the default experience though, it'll naturally breed resentment, which is where we're at today.

minor sierra
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matches with 2 obvious standount players on opposite sides for instance are quite fair imo

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and can vary in os extremely

marble wren
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Fair sure, but the 2 players in question won't spawn opposite each other very often, turning the game into a base race.

steep quiver
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these matches are just who rolls the other team faster

minor sierra
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depends on the map

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it works better for glitters where flexing to the other side of the map is often not really an issue

marble wren
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I honestly can't think of an example where they would though :/ Even on Koom, the carry spots aren't opposite each other.

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And Koom is the most symmetrical map in the commonly played pool

minor sierra
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and sure its not ideal

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but its better than no games going on

steep quiver
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nah it's worse, you'll regret playing

minor sierra
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I think a simple strategic adaptation from how do I kill my lane enemy super fast into how do I keep him back with minimal commitment and spend the rest keeping my team in good condition really helps

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we already established 60os cannot play better than 3 20 os

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so he needs to keep his 15 os alive

steep quiver
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most of the time if instead of base racing you try to keep the team alive you'll lose

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there is zero reason you keep ppl 4 times less your rating alive, you rather let them die and take their resources

minor sierra
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I dunno

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but people do keep on getting better at the game on all levels keep that in mind

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10 os is not as bad as past 10 os

steep quiver
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it's the opposite, ratings get inflated

minor sierra
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maybe for those that play consistently

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many dont

hexed basin
vague temple
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mentor discord for based high os gamuers to flame low raters daring to improve in the crucible of bantz

minor sierra
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what about "official" competetive lobbies with no bosses but the losing team gets put to the back of the quene every time, there could be 1 of these lobbies for each popular map and one rotato and they could be pinned to the top of lobby browser

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automated lobbies where you need to fight to keep your spot

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would anyone want to play that?

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give players a hat if they stay alive 5 rounds xD

tawdry turret
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who would ever wait in queue for likely a single game

minor sierra
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well, if there is less than 8 people quened up you might get back in

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you could change the way it works, I just like the idea of automatic lobbies that somehow select for quality play

tawdry turret
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that idea how been thrown around a bunch but with prio queue not winner stays in

glossy thorn
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the priority concept was pretty well accepted, I think

sweet bluff
# deep tartan That's only because high OS players don't post replays, or assist with replay re...

It doesnt make sense to do this, for example I think I am higher os than every mentor so I why would I ask for advice lol. Better to just dm a fellow high os player who I know can take a look and give me outside perspective like Raikoh or Clyret or even choice.

About assisting with replay reviews, most high os players have moderation history so they cant even ever get mentor so it seems like a thankless job. Also from what I saw nobody mid to high os asks for replays anyway so no point coaching 10 os player that he needs to not start 5 solars, regular mentors can do that.

glossy thorn
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I wonder whether we got any reports (for force speccing ppl), but I think not

deep tartan
# sweet bluff It doesnt make sense to do this, for example I think I am higher os than every m...

Better to just dm a fellow high os player who I know can take a look and give me outside perspective like Raikoh or Clyret or even choice.

Guests and none-offical mentors mentor people all the time, and if those mentorship conversations were in public, it would help more players.

There's a very large amount of players between you and a 25 os who could benefit from that high OS contextual information related to a specific game.

For the same reason I learned loads from reading high OS players talking about matches in spec-chat and asking them "why did X to Y?" and they added context.

tawdry turret
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and ur back to the issue of players not caring about climbing, why would 30os players want to hit 40 when they are exposed to how cancer that can be

deep tartan
tawdry turret
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which i understand but still doesnt motivate me and i doubt it would others

deep tartan
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Infact, you do raise a good point - aiming for a specific value of OS is insane, its not designed to be used like that, its not designed to be grinded, its meant to balance lobbys. So any one who games the system just reduces the quality of all the lobbies they play in.

You get to 40os by playing like 40os, regardless, upskilling players is never a bad thing.

sweet bluff
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If you have no goal to aim for, game becomes a LOT less fun

deep tartan
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That ones upto you chief, sorry 🙂

sweet bluff
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If game doesnt give you motivation to actually become good at it (actively punishing you for it), you are losing good chunk of players who play for competitive aspect.

deep tartan
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Also, dis u?

image.png image.png
sweet bluff
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I stole it from indaclub

hexed basin
pastel sand
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What's the endgoal of any videogame? #1 on Leaderboard? Play in tourneys? Fancy emblem by your name? Renoune in all the chats, on the minds of every noob?

hexed basin
glossy thorn
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maybe OS should be hidden

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and there should be another bragging rights badge thing instead

pastel sand
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Grandpa lisp Back in the dayy . . . The noob --> pro pipeline was mostly through clans. Newb-friendly clans would play with newbs looking for talent to invite, or would just have open recruiting to see who may be potentially competent and stick around. The clan would take them into their little social circle, which gave them access to experts to learn from and other newbs to have friendly practice with. Clans competed for representation in tourneys/leaderboards and for public lobby dominance.

twilit spindle
# hexed basin https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1279824268904890408 Here's an ex...

well to be fair, he's not a mentor and literally anyone who wants to put in effort can comment on people's replay reviews. In my experience I stopped commenting on peoples reviews just because it got boring repeating the same advice again and again.

the problem is that there's really not a lot of mid skill players looking to actively improve and those are the most interesting to comment on for high skill players tbh.

hexed basin
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Well, again, refer to the example. No high os player has taken this. How many mid players are going to return for more reviews if they get this?

twilit spindle
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well er in that specific example there's not really a high os 1v1 player actively mentoring through bar official disc rn lol

1v1 is also a smaller community and mentoring is mostly seen in spec chat cuz they group up in 1 lobby

tawny linden
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Although academy obviously has had mid players submitting reviews and such I feel like it's primarily been beneficial/used for very new players who make very obvious mistakes which don't take a 50os to point out.

Most of the questions in the channel are very basic too not really a mid player looking to refine their play but ppl who don't know mechanics even exist or what the difference between pawn and grunt is.

hexed basin
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And those questions can get answered by random people, although I still wouldn't trust every 15 os with it.
But that's where it ends. Academy isn't a pipeline into the op ranks in its current form

tawny linden
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Yeah it definitely isn't but tbf that's a difficult thing to do. Even looking at StarCraft, you can easily coach someone to diamond (maybe masters nowdays I think it's much easier than it used to be) but getting to GM takes some dedication to improving that goes further than a bit of advice and requires the mindset of actually reviewing your own replays and working to improve/train which only some people have the time/desire to do.

dusty frigate
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to actually be serious for a moment instead of shitposting, in the straits lobby at least, I got plenty of help and coaching from top players

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I would ask some questions and occasionally someone would coach me in discord for a bit or humor my attempt to counter their op build

tawny linden
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And tbf if advice is given in a nice way I've seen more folks be receptive to it than the other way around. But it is draining to feel like you have to play coach to win I'm sure.

dusty frigate
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Not part of the official system, just informally getting to know people. I am still not an OP player but I am willing to guess that is how most people actually get their advice, by just hanging out with better players.

storm condor
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People can learn "what" to do by watching someone whose good at any gamemode/map. Which is where most of the people asking for replay reviews are looking for.

It's mostly fun to coach when someone asks "why" and "how".

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If someone sends a replay review for 1v1 you should just link them a x-factor replay

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If someone is asking for how to scale u can send them replay of chisato

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These are like the most basic things and it's what most of the people are lacking in which isn't even fun to mentor

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If someone asks how to counter Cerb + 5 pulsars or smth like that then it would be

strange beacon
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to raise a 25 player to solid 40 is the interesting coaching

spice temple
# deep tartan > -- Not ideal view: but I guess I was looking forward to grind to some decent o...

Honestly I think this is a much more productive avenue for this discussion and I am generally surprised it’s not discussed more as the solution to this problem. There is at its heart a question of “why do people play” and cultivating reasonable objectives and rewards for players to work towards is an expectation that many players have. Right now OS and chev (playtime) are the only in game means of monitoring progress before players go to tracking stats through external tools (like number of cows or overall win percentage) to derive additional objectives.

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If you add more for players to work towards (like apparently the highly sought after commander cat ears) then I would expect to see a positive impact in player retention.

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Player portraits, in game stat tracking (for things BEYOND just win rates and sweaty stats, like lifetime number of ticks produced or killed. When it hits 1billion you get a golden tick)

strange beacon
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make 1 million ticks in winning games

still seal
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Flags could be used as cosmetics. I would totally rock a tick flag

strange beacon
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win X games where you make at least 10 units from {insert t2 lab}
win X games where you make at least 20 units from the {insert t1 lab}

spice temple
spice temple
vague temple
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pls no not starlight

spice temple
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these are all merely suggestions, but i hope it gets some other peoples juices flowing

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I would also be interested in finding ways to separate OS as much as possible from players incentives in game. as many have pointed out, the purpose of OS is to balance games only, and the variance within that number is a mathematical necessity for the accuracy of the estimator. Other games work very hard to hide the underlying balance hyperparameters from players for this very reason.

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Ranking division systems are often desirable because they are discrete goal markers that can have their own hysteresis (OS balancing parameter can vary but the rank can be achieved and then programmed to either not diminish on losses or not diminish right away upon ranking up). Other games often have different rules for the progression through divisions when you are lower rank vs higher rank where incentives are different. Such as going up in rank when you win but not down when you lose up until a certain point where losing starts to have consequences on rank

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My suggestions from this vomited stream of consciousness:
Continue to use OS for balance (until such time that an alternative can be proven to be better at predicting match outcome than than random chance over the predictor)
Hide OS from the player (but still be able to track it through external means like on the website or stats sites)
Move ranked progression to a division like system
Add additional incentives in game for players to work towards: unit skins (eg "golden tremor"), player profiles, commander skins, etc

tawdry jacinth
#

Zerok rank icons does this:
https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Rating_and_Rank
Chevrons = how long you've played
Color = How good you are compared to other players (using percentiles)

You can only gain a new colour after holding position in a new percentile group for multiple games.

deep tartan
#

Something something sprung ZK?

tawdry jacinth
#

ZK is always ahead of us (But BAR is prettier)

gilded folio
#

percentiles showing color would be enough of an incentive

tawdry turret
#

how would that work

#

in lobby only?

gilded folio
#

everywhere

#

website + lobby + $whois (display as text only) + $whoami (display as text only) + lobby list shows average chevron color

#

leaderboard doesn't have to change

exotic pawn
#

Toxic behaviour guys , or wait , this is fine cause it’s a noob doing it ?

image.png
deep tartan
still seal
#

Should be fine whoever is doing it. Min and maxrating is there have a chance to have fun

steep quiver
deep tartan
#

unless this screenshot was copied from somewhere else, from a different time, and posted now, so there's no way to get any context it and its merely just a person doing a thing in which case its not really saying anything?

steep quiver
#

its 20 min old

deep tartan
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So its likely a screenshot taken from that bossed lobby, in which the person has started from scratch and as far as I understood it can decide who gets to play with them?

Either way, without wider context or explanation i really don't see what it adds to the discussion

steep quiver
#

the context is that it was the only non max rated lobby

deep tartan
#

So a player made a lobby, is the lobby's boss, waited for it to fill with people around the skill they want to play with, a much higher OS player turned up, and they spec'ed them with their boss powers in their lobby which they made?

steep quiver
#

yep

deep tartan
#

Okay, and this is evidence and proof towards what particular thing as you see it?

steep quiver
#

i already said it was the only non max rated lobby

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now you cant join any of them

#

clap

deep tartan
#

Then sounds like someone should make a lobby and wait for it to fill, like they did

steep quiver
#

damn you solved it, close the thread

deep tartan
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The same logic which allows you to cull low OS players from high OS lobbies, allows low OS players to cull high OS players from theirs.

steep quiver
#

except the proportion of both is nowhere equal

deep tartan
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So maybe its worth thinking about why so many players find it preferable to cull high OS players from their lobbies as they apparently find it so unfun, most are spec or kick on sight?

steep quiver
#

yeah maybe think about it and why so many high os are playing minecraft instead now

tame basin
#

or hoi 4 :>

deep tartan
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I feel like this keeps going unsaid, so I'm going to say it.

The OP Lobby might be "the most competitive" lobby, but that does not mean all the other lobbies are not competitive within their player and skill brackets. A very high OS player joining a lobby where people are having good games at and for their skill, is just as disruptive for them (complete steamroll) as a low OS player joining the OP lobby (complete steamroll)

This seems to flow into a belief or feeling that all the none OP lobbys are somehow lesser or not worthy of treating with respect, and are just there as playgrounds to fuck around in. This is one of the reasons hijacking feels so bad; they then have to "go find one of the other 20 lobbies" and start collecting good players into a pool again - arguably worse since they likely have a smaller friends list.

Everyone has equal rights to make a lobby, and determine to the extent of the tools provided, who to play with in it. From the systems perspective there is nothing special about any lobby, OP or otherwise.

I'd wager a fair chunk of the reason a lot of high OS players get removed form these spaces is so those lobbies can continue to have good games. Since their experience is of high OS players joining, treating them as playgrounds and frankly being rude towards the lower OS players who then call them out on treating their lobbies badly.

Now, this maybe a few bad apples, but would you take the risk that the high OS player isn't just going to ruin your lobby and next few games, and kill it, or would you just spec/kick them and get with having the fun you were before they joined?

Having hung around in #main and #academy chat, its pretty reliable to see people turn up in there, after being gaslit or frankly bullied by some players and asking if what they said is true or how to report them for basically ruining their lobbies.

Make of that what you will.

hexed basin
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low os lobbies are very much playgrounds to fuck around in, as you'll hear from every low os player if you ask them to treat the game seriously

deep tartan
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Maybe my experience of smaller and low os lobbies is very different then peepoShrug

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And when op players join the other competitive mono-map lobbies such as Isthmus or ATG?

sweet bluff
#

I find low os ppl be much more toxic in general, and they usually have 0 intention to play as a team too.

hexed basin
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I fail to see your point tbh, there's nothing sacred about a noob lobby

carmine vigil
#

okay sheesh, sorry for being good at the game, i wont play anymore sadge

gusty vortex
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clearly min/max rating settings as well as spec/kickbans should be removed to improve the state of lobbies

deep tartan
sweet bluff
gusty vortex
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lets remove OS entirely

deep tartan
steep quiver
#

try ending something when the game puts the worst players in your team

regal charm
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How is one player with 2x OS gonna make a good game? Ya all are sometimes dumb as reclaimable rocks. Of course raigeki is gonna disturb a prefectly fine lobby, make a new one. Not like raigeki will have a good experience in that lobby and since he was alone, its very much the same if he makes a new lobby instead of snatching an already formed one full of noobs

#

Culling goes both ways

hexed basin
#

well excuse him for disturbing the balance of the lobby called "unbalanced"

regal charm
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Well was the user in wrong to spec him? Its only sane

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Why doesnt 1 that stands out create new? If he had 7 people near 30os the vote would not spec him

steep quiver
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these people dont exist

glossy thorn
waxen birch
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One of the greatest favors in any sort of game you can be gifted is to play against people better(in some cases much better) than you. I don't remember particulars of stomping nobodies in MMOs, mobas, shooters, BRs etc. I do remember when I fought the best players in some of those games(and got stomped usually). This is how you get better.

tawdry jacinth
# steep quiver the context is that it was the only non max rated lobby

Right now:
https://server4.beyondallreason.info/battle/lobbies

8v8 rotato | 8v8 | Min chev: 2
All Welcome Lobby | 8v8
<Noob Friendly All welcome Glitters> | 8v8
Dont be afraid
<Noob Friendly All welcome Glitters> | 8v8
Noob Glitters - all welcome | 8v8
all welcome | 8v8
Smal games | 4v4
1v1 or 2v2 | 2v2
germany against the world unbalanced

I'm excluding lobbies that are close to empty.

Note the germany against the world unbalanced lobby (bossed by Rotinger) has a 45 and 46 rated player. It's possible he got specced because he tried to join the Germany team. I dunno.

steep quiver
#

it literally says he did maxrating 40

tawdry jacinth
regal charm
#

Thats a very specific lobby where germans stomp on others

swift olive
#

I member when some worm would use maxrating to shadow kickban me from glitters 😄
I guess that didn't make me not want to lose OS...

royal mirage
regal charm
#

Raikoh my gameknowledge increase by 27% from speccing just one game of yours on glitters, come back

#

I wanna go from 28 to 33

swift olive
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Dookie went back to boss abuse kickban after he saw people wouldn't vote to kickban me anymore
He really didn't like losing 10 games in a row that one day, i could pretty much win on command against him so it wasn't fun for him to play anymore.

gilded folio
runic merlinBOT
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Main is a very public channel and bridged with the game. This means it is not the appropriate place for mud-slinging and complaints. If you want to appeal a moderation action then use the #open-ticket channel, if you think something needs to be done better use #suggestions (stuff in main gets lost very easily), if you want to report a player please do that via the report tools.

tardy pike
dusty frigate
#

we need lobbying OS to solve this probleum

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you gain lobbying OS for kicking people on your ignore list, and lose OS if you or friends get kicked

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votes from people with high lobby OS should count for less, but high game OS boosts your vote power, to balance things out

golden fractal
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min rating glitters ded as well

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We died 6-7 times today at absurdly low min ratings; lobby unable to get people even after hours of waiting

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We were steadily losing regulars then rotato players pump and now with our lobbies consisting of near majority of rotato players - we keep dying

sour canopy
#

minecraft time

vague temple
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sadly for those of us not op at bar there will be no minecraft. we will be eroded and wash away in the sands of mid and op lobbies past, until we are just memories drifting in the wind, like tears lost in the rain.

golden fractal
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We need hijacking back

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even if it was toxic - it was able to forcefully push min rating lobby into existence

pastel sand
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Wish it was easier to say in public lobby in-game, "Yo, any op here? Come play."
Discord bridge to main is noisy. Dx

tawdry jacinth
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Well that’s what this role is for #announcements message and ptaq has used it to jumpstart his op lobby streams

vague temple
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chad ptaq starting op lobbies

storm condor
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I think lobby just needs a streamer to keep it alive

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Most ppl like listening while playing or spectating

tawdry jacinth
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ptaq is also a really good streamer because he engages with the audience and provides good insights particularly being a dev. As an example, I learnt from his stream that vanguards got buffed to outrange pulsars.

gilded folio
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and catapults -_-

pastel sand
storm condor
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almost as if blocking everyone outside your lobby makes it less popular

regal charm
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We need to make our own arrakis with memes and hookers

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And by hookers i mean laudi, come to new arrakis

floral crest
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There can be a discord channel for high OS players looking for games. Mods only allow high enough OS into channel. Let's them find games via discord chat as a hack fix.

Then, if traction develops, try to set up fight nights with high OS players with winners getting silly discord tags. This also generates hype and games worthy of commentary.

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A high key solution is to send out a "When2Meet" type thing to all high OS players and then that would tell us the ideal time with the most overlap. Then inform them of the optimal time.

With so few high OS players I see some structure as potentially being helpful as a reliable option

Honestly you could just demo a "Thursday Night Fight Night" and announce it in advanced and drum up interest as a proof of concept

golden fractal
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We dont even have KOOK for them

floral crest
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Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good

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They'll see the nice lobby and hopefully catch on. Include details in multiple languages if you so choose haha

golden fractal
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the problem is - high os players camp low os lobbies - and there is no system to promote lobbies inside of the game itself

floral crest
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I'm curious if they create a high OS 1v1 lobby where they just count your wins

golden fractal
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we need to funnel good dogs into min rating lobbies - last 6 months I have been promoting arrakis via web chat on all glitter lobbies - we got min rating lobby on in basically 5-15 mins

Now that web chat is removed - hijacking is removed - we cannot get a fuckin min rating glitter lobby up

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quality of lobbies is worse than ever (I guess 60os playing along side 4x sub 15 os is not ideal)

floral crest
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Lobbies need a max and min OS

golden fractal
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somehow we managed to lose mid tier os population

floral crest
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I often see only max or min not like 10-25

golden fractal
#

even with the influx of rotato players

golden fractal
floral crest
#

Mhm?

golden fractal
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people farm to above 25 os and then they cannot compete in min rating lobbies at all

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so they are forced to play to lose in min rating lobby in order to play again max rating lobby

floral crest
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Lol people take this too seriously I'm a low OS player who just loved the game

golden fractal
#

well

floral crest
golden fractal
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we used to see like 5-7ish new players "graduating" from noob lobbies

floral crest
#

What if it was based on a formula involving OS and playtime?

golden fractal
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and to say that their skillset was worse than 10os players is not over exaggeration

floral crest
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Mid tier lobbies I mean , so you can't get a 500hr player

golden fractal
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the difference between min and max rating lobbies is absurdly high

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and now with uncertainty being so high it takes basically few flat wins for you to graduate out of max rating lobby

floral crest
#

What if you could also set Max total playtime

golden fractal
#

It's whatever. We are/ were the most played map

#

and now we cannot get measly min 10 os lobbies going

floral crest
#

Lol @golden fractal DM me we can play today I'm garbage :p

golden fractal
#

lobby quality worse than ever - obviously due to op players playing alongside 10 os - 15os players

floral crest
golden fractal
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in our lobbies we have 50-60 os players that will crush any sub 30os basically instantly on sight

#

difficult to have quality lobbies like that

floral crest
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Ye I'm what, 20? IDR

golden fractal
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u should try min rating glitters before it blends into rotato