#Improving the State of High-OS Lobbies & the Overall Game

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frank hatch
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Winning is the only metric that matters.

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How you win doesn't matter.

grizzled bison
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#1233481418500345928 message

placid bough
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eco score damage score and what not

grizzled bison
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I address that in a post above. The second you do that, you ruin gameplay

unique stone
grizzled bison
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Because you incentivize players to do something other than win

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DotA2 briefly factored in damage/healing for MMR placement calculation. All it did was make players pick glass cannons + healers to pad stats.

placid bough
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how do you exploit that in an rts

grizzled bison
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They quickly reverted it, and I almost guarantee it would be the same in BAR.

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Eco Score? "Don't end the game we've already won, let me finish 5 more AFUs"

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You think tech players not making units is bad now? Imagine player being rewarded for AFU spamming

boreal marlin
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No, and keep the thread in topic. It's been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere.

placid bough
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what about recording these stats without having them affect player score then, because if it's to be based only on win/lose there's not much to improve on that system itself right
also where can check my own stats

marble wren
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Bear's site has how many cows and other awards you've farmed iirc

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So that data is there hanging off some API endpoint

placid bough
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you could easily tell who's good at ecoing just checking on those stats for example

marble wren
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You could, but at the end of the day, who cares? Goal is to win the game, and if your eco is supposed to win games, that'll be reflected in your win rate anyway.

tawdry jacinth
placid bough
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i mean if you want to balance teams

boreal marlin
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I did warn people

grizzled bison
marble wren
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Frfr. Seasonal map pool very exciting.

violet dome
sweet bluff
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Actually that hall of fame looks dope ngl

proud nacelle
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What about handing out badges for winning ranked games while starting with a certain lab? (bot badge, air badge, vehicle badge, hover badge, navy badge)

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so you can see beforehand who is experienced with what

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a full silver chevron player would propably just have all of them

tawdry turret
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Anyone know how much OS moves at 5 uncertainty ?

marble wren
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A bunch probably. At 2.5, I was seeing something between .2 and .5 OS movements in 8v8 games, and much more in smaller team games.

burnt lance
tawdry turret
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So like .6-7ish in 8v8?

burnt lance
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probably closer to 0.5, but yeah it'll move fast. Slower for high OS players

tiny aurora
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when you say high os, you mean low uncertainty, right?

burnt lance
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As far as I understand how the rating calculations work, anyway. I am not an expert

tiny aurora
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I thought it was the team's avg vs the enemy team's avg, not the individual (except for 1v1 I guess)

burnt lance
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Just looking at my own rating changes it seems that individual OS is taken into account, but maybe someone who knows the inner workings of OpenSkill can correct me

uncut oak
# frank hatch Winning is the only metric that matters.

while i agree with that, i think taking awards in the game results could have some small bonus for taking them,
Or probably it could have separate stats, where it will be shown how much "awards" you got in 8v8's for example

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i'd rather have this shown instead of actual OS which balances team (which should be completely hidden from eneryone)

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this will make loses not that tilting, and getting awards more setisfying

heady valve
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I think the whole point of this thread is to have less people do AFK AFUS farming, not more.

boreal marlin
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#1186850950770610207 message is tempting though

tardy pike
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@strange beacon had a great idea around balancing OS up to 40 and then 40+ players naturally had a higher win rate. This is actually very normal for RTS where the higher skilled players end up with extremely high win rates due to extremely imbalanced match making. Iā€™m not advocating for the extreme, but hard forcing a 50% win rate for players ends up with the scenarios described above with Clyret and Raghna. For example, in Age of Empires my win rate in some seasons for team games were close to 90-95% because the match making bracket was so huge that most of my games were noob stomping. This just created a constant dodge fest and finding a single game often took 15-30 minutes of searching and some games didnā€™t even last that long. Thatā€™s a huge reason I quit that game because it was actually worse lobby sim than this game at higher ELO. So having a system that might slightly skew your win rate higher after 40isg OS might not be a bad thing and probably feel more natural. After all, what is the point of hard forcing a 50% win rate for a 13 OS player? The game isnā€™t actually giving them feedback that they need to improve because they win 50% of their games. Therefore itā€™s a delicate balance on how to calibrate this but @strange beacon initial number of 40 OS sounds about it right. Iā€™m at about 44 OS right now and I only sometimes feel the 1v3 problems (20% of the time?) but it gets more and more like that toward 50. Note that this solution might have unintended consequences where some players will end up with 100 OS in 3 months because of a 60% win rate. But maybe thatā€™s not a bad thing and if they ever match each other in small team games it would still be balanced. Unless they implement split OS for higher and smaller team games (big fan of that suggestion too).

uncut oak
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the 50% winrate is fine if you're at your actual OS.
If you're better than your os you'll have higher than 50%, if you're worse you'll have lower winrate and eventually you'll have the true OS you have.
I think this is correct, but in BAR reality there's no matchmaker, and players and not shuffled enough to match people of different ranks and maps and groups to play in one game. That results in "atg lobby os" and "rotato lobby os" which are not the same in reality.

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And balancer currently works fine, and actually does a good balance since player's usually tend to have something near 50% winrate , which means he have interesting games (not too hard/not too easy) and difficulty is enough to tryhard and get satisfying for win.

Current issue is lacking of high OS players, which results in half lobby is PROs and half lobby is noobs, and noobs can be very different, at 20 os guys can play decently or can play very bad, and its mostly random which kind of noobs PRO's getting šŸ™‚

I think current solution can only be done by reducing lobbies to 5v5 for example for high os lobbies if there's not enough good players for 8v8 šŸ¤·
Because currently high-os players don't want to be high-os to carry noobs in their team and play unfair games

tawdry turret
strange beacon
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so you get to win more games but climbing is just as hard

tardy pike
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My ELO was about 2,000 so, you can imagine the climb.

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Aiming for a 2/3 win rate isnā€™t that bad for 40+ OS so you shouldnā€™t be stomping teams to get 0.01 OS

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and if you lose you lose twice as much

tiny aurora
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this would create so many issues

imagine a 20 os player can go "this Nezah called me a regarded individual last game"
and proceed to pull a seagull on you to make you lose a game you're expected to win

strange beacon
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it can't be helped tho... would you rather win 50% of games and get even +-, or win 60%-65% of games and gain less/lose more (for 8v8)

tiny aurora
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without a match making system, I would much rather take the 50% "even" games

tardy pike
tiny aurora
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yea but if your expected win rate is 50% when you get a griefer, you lose 0.2 or whatever
if your expected win rate was 95%, you'd lose 4.0 os

tardy pike
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Itā€™s actually worse now because the only people actually doing this are 40+ players which lower the win rate way more because a 20 OS player on an 8v8 team is usually mostly inconsequential whereas a 40+ player is expected to actually accomplish something.

tardy pike
distant elk
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Tbh, I wouldn't see much difference between a 20 os tryharding or 'pulling a seagull' most of the time. If they actively grief, rather than passively, that's different, but also very easy to moderate.

Also, don't call people regarded, and it'll be much easier šŸ˜›

strange beacon
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In 8v8 if the tapering starts at 40os I think the max win rate you'll get is like 66%-70%

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Os is secondary the main difference is you actually get to appreciate the fruits of getting better by winning some more games without getting punished with increasingly worse teams

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Except poor 40os players happy 40% wr

hexed basin
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If clearly communicated to the player, having non-50% games with Nezah sounds ok, but there are 2 problems.

  • People don't like to lose, they're likely to dodge Nezah in the enemy team
  • I do not trust OS's ability to judge 30/70 or worse matches. In 1v1, I gain too much os by winning vs 20 os players, the system doesn't recognise how little chance they have (solved by unranked, not a solution here)
exotic pawn
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Imo you canā€™t cap os otherwise it will be dodge meta even more than now

verbal ridge
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Give points for killing enemy commanders and double the points for killing the last one. After all that is the goal of the game.

If you look at the ba hall of Fame you will see hakora on top of some tables as he afkd afus

hexed basin
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Resign to deny os to the enemy?

tiny aurora
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Only win and loss can ever affect os otherwise players will find ways to game the system

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Even just rewarding cosmetics for non win rate related stats is detrimental.

gilded folio
strange beacon
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

Perverse incentive

A perverse incentive is an incentive that has an unintended and undesirable result that is contrary to the intentions of its designers. The cobra effect is the most direct kind of perverse incentive, typically because the incentive unintentionally rewards people for making the issue worse. The term is used to illustrate how incorrect stimulation...

verbal ridge
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How would killing coms be detrimental

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Give us a headhunter trophy

sudden ibex
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Would be cool if there was a profile thing with trophies like that

verbal ridge
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This wasnā€™t meant to replace os in any way

sudden ibex
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a supplemental profile with lots of little trophies and stuff sounds really cool, game would need some kind of achievement tracker that would check for folks doing things in game tho, sounds complicated

verbal ridge
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Also afus spam may not be the optimal play and may also be considered trolling at a point but it may be the reason people enjoy the game. So after thinking about it why not have eco rewards? The logic being we want to give incentives to actually play the game

strange beacon
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plp don't need eco reward to make afus
and in a 8v8 game it can be griefing

uncut oak
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they just have to get better

exotic pawn
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Any chance to have one brand new OS called ā€œsmall team gameā€ which contains 2v2 , 3 v 3 and 4 v4 formats ? And anything beyond 5 v 5 is ā€œbig team gameā€ or current team game os ?

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That is a massive QoL change tbh

boreal marlin
tiny aurora
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that's the most pressing issue toward making os relevant

boreal marlin
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it's not getting done in time for S1 ĀÆ_(惄)_/ĀÆ

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PRs welcome though

fallen sorrel
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4 days? I will try

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Which teamsizes would it include

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Up to and including 4v4?

boreal marlin
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I'd include 5v5 in it

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I think you could find some previous changes deep in history and revert them but I tried and failed

exotic pawn
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This will be awesome guys

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5 v 5 looks closer to an 8 v 8 than to a 2 v 2 so imo should be big team game Os

hexed basin
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I'd say up to and including 4v4

fallen sorrel
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Yea I think 5v5 is played more like big team games just on smaller maps usually,

sudden crystal
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I'm very late to this discussion, but i wish for matchmaking. I strongly believe it would instantly solve this issue, but will there be players for it

marble wren
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I'm not sure that I agree with that. Given the size of the community, and particularly the size of the community that frequently plays in the OP Lobbies, I think Matchmaking for the 8v8 format would be a terrible experience, due to long wait times, as well as mixed skill in games in order to combat the wait times.

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I think custom lobbies are going to be the norm for 8v8 games, even after matchmaking queues eventually become functional.

sudden crystal
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From the current state of games, i dont believe 8v8 wait times would be long actually.

Theres currently 16x12 players (not counting specs)

image.png
fallen sorrel
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So a few technical questions, adding small team games as a new rating category next to big team games,

What rating should small team games start at?
I think it would be best to go through match history and calculate what the rating would be for small team games based on that, better than starting everyone at some default rating.

Should big team game rating be left as is or should they also be recalculated to include only big team games?
Leave them as it is to avoid the potential chaos ?

@boreal marlin @faint spade

sudden crystal
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in fact, i believe matchmaking, perhaps a bigger bucket, would solve long wait queues, and would make parties happy as well.

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i feel, the only issue is OS matching.

marble wren
fallen sorrel
sudden crystal
fallen sorrel
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In the past there was only 1 big lobby but there days there are many and it's much easier to find one to play in without waiting much

sudden crystal
fallen sorrel
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Not in the same team necessarily

hexed basin
sudden crystal
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Alright, since you guys think i'm out of topic, then I'll refrain.

Thank you guys for your time

hexed basin
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If I say "specific" one more time, please someone smack me

boreal marlin
# fallen sorrel So a few technical questions, adding small team games as a new rating category n...

Oof that's a large question. Might be better in #1243163370857955358?

It would probably be ideal for accuracy to recalculate everything but it would also give everyone decently large rating jumps, no small feat to explain that. Also... I don't know how long it would take to recalculate the ratings, and it might cause the server to have a longer outage then the planned maintenance Wednesday.

Honestly, idk!

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As for matchmaking yeah, it might improve things or not but I'd assume it's out of scope of this particular thread. It's blocked on other things beyond what we can do right now anyway!

fallen sorrel
fallen sorrel
tawny linden
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My .02c on team ratings is that it would be simpler/cause less confusion to just duplicate current team rating to both large/small teams. Sure it might not be as accurate as it could be but with uncertainty also getting bumped up with the new season I don't think it would remain an issue for too long and it would sidestep a ton of confusion around why did my rating change.

boreal marlin
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^ we've given up on this for now, we couldn't quite test it properly and it became risky to try it without, but it will be coming eventually and likely sooner than later

swift olive
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season maps are in yet?

grizzled bison
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I think people to talk about what they want. And if 15 maps is too few for 4 months. Also if we want a "core" set or not

swift olive
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okay ill post what i think on the linked thread

heady valve
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Noobs in particular should consistantly get better at the game, but their OS based on past performance will necessarily underrank them. Weighting recent win rate more highly could fix this.

swift olive
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Auto rotating after game ended is planned with the new map pool or no?

safe pumice
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You can already autorotate. It's a host setting.

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!rotationEndGame random

hardy prairie
split drift
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/time @swift olive

swift olive
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/time @swift olive

grizzled bison
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/time @swift olive

boreal marlin
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Gentlemen.

swift olive
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testing the new map pool and auto rotate right now, looking stronk peepoLove

grizzled bison
swift olive
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the map pool you made

grizzled bison
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Awesome. Try to keep track of repeat skipped maps, maybe we cull more later on

tiny aurora
exotic pawn
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@grizzled bison it will be great that next good map has a chance to drop a map from the least played , like 10%

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So we keep it fresh

grizzled bison
# exotic pawn <@218021835713937408> it will be great that next good map has a chance to drop a...

So from my conversations with people way smarter than me, we can't do this. The only other option would be to run it alphabetically: https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/spads_config_bar/blob/main/etc/mapLists.conf#L1362

GitHub
spads_config_bar/etc/mapLists.conf at main Ā· beyond-all-reason/spad...

The Spring Perl Autohost Dedicated Server Configuration files for BAR - beyond-all-reason/spads_config_bar

tardy pike
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You could do it by adding one map multiple times so that the population of available maps is % representative of what you want in the population? But then you have problem of repeat maps šŸ˜›

heady valve
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It's quite telling that the same people who are contributing to making op lobby very unfun are the same people who are crying the loudest about op lobby being dead and not having any players. No matter how many changes to the OS system, the lobby system, the maps, game balance etc are implemented, the real reason for the game being unfun - the people - wont change.

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

grizzled bison
swift olive
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Big queue, people wanting to vote boss to raise ts, others not wanting to vote yes

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Hopefully priority queue system soon soon tm peepoLove

unique stone
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There are also some players in top 30 global that can't accept the fact that if the lobby is kinda low average OS (not peak times), they have to take the initiative in terms of guiding the rest of their team. If they don't, there's a good chance they'll rage out on some noob for being a noob, after losing hard.

Those same players complain that they don't want to have to be the leader always, cause it's tiring. I can definitely see that as a valid point.

We circle back to the original problem - small playerbase, especially the players that play OP rotation lobbies, cause a lot of issues that don't usually exist in other popular games.

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

slender sparrow
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Basically, the high os lobby would be improved with a better pipeline for newer players.

storm condor
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It's simply a population issue because for matches to be in a small OS range you need alot more players in that OS range

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

unique stone
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We had an unranked rotation lobby yesterday with midrange OS players, think that was interesting. Try out maps at your own pace with no pressure. More of that would increase the quality of OP lobby matches, eventually.

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

raven star
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Defo need more 20-30 open skill matches, playing with <10 open skill and <30 open skill players in the same lobby is too much of a skill diff, would be awesome to have more balanced lobbies, but with small pop diff its hard. The only fix bar having more players in general would have a regular 'club' that played lol, a group of 20ish 20 - 30 open skill players that play at a regular time

swift olive
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So what Devs want to do about people making random tweaks, like changing units ect... and it still counting towards OS?
Shouldn't game with tweaks be unranked? We join some lobby and we don't even know what game we are playing

Doesn't make sense to have same rating with tweaks, coz it's literally another game

exotic pawn
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Tweakdef games should be unranked

swift olive
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it's like playing war3 mod or sc2 mod and counting for ladder ranking

gilded folio
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The history of tweakdefs becoming popular was stiletto removal and consul tweaks specifically for improving ranked games, so there is good reason why youā€™d want the option

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Itā€™ll be a huge improvement for a base64 decoder to be integrated into the display for tweaks so that it shows the script rather than a hash

grizzled bison
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Tweak defs do make it nice to test changes, but there's also the issue of abuse and game differences

gilded folio
grizzled bison
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I think that is a separate conversation that probably deserves its own thread, because it is a pressing issue.

boreal marlin
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Yes please.

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And thank you!

grizzled bison
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In terms of this thread. I wanna say thanks Perfi and Joe for pushing along the changes that made Season 1 happen. The map pools are a great addition. In terms of the OS "reset", feedback for next season is that 5 uncertainty may be a bit too high, but it's still great to see changes

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

boreal marlin
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Small teams are also coming soon, Lexon is an absolute badass and we're at the refactoring stage for that

boreal marlin
grizzled bison
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True, but I don't dare mention his name, lest I incur his wrath, It's like mentioning Jazlobby, the risk is too great

heavy canopy
exotic pawn
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Is there a thing to consider adding diminish OS returns based on maps ? This force people to play more maps to balance their Os and helps to balance that person outside their map spamming preference.

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

boreal marlin
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No

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per map OS, OS gain/loss weighting based on maps: Ano, not currently on the cards, if you guys want to double down on it, make a new thread and work it out, come with an actionable latex pdf šŸ˜‰

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I'm not adding arbitrary adjustments like that unless and until we have a solid theoretical basis for it

unique stone
hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

boreal marlin
unique stone
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My question to @exotic pawn is, why should rotato players care about 40 OS glitters farmers? Those guys are free elo if you ever meet them anywhere.

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

exotic pawn
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Not if they are on your team @unique stone šŸ˜‚

storm condor
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Maybe having separate OS connected to the seasonal maps rotation will make for a good ladder experience, but I doubt because of player numbers willing to play with seasonal maps on.

hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

spice temple
hexed geyserBOT
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Season 1 has started, everyone got their Uncertainity reset. That affected the balance rank a little bit. Calm down and play a few more matches, you should have much easier time climbing up (or dropping down) now.
#announcements message

spice temple
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Now if your problem is ā€œI want my perceived moral superiority over players that play fewer maps to be reflected in my OSā€ then I canā€™t help you

gilded folio
spice temple
gilded folio
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Thank you. That makes sense intuitively to my smooth brain

hexed panther
boreal marlin
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Soon

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I'm not promising any particular time frames because I don't want to have to go back on them; we have the code mostly prepped but wanted to refactor it first so it isn't an unmaintainable mess in the future

marble wren
thin tusk
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Both from relative prediction at different parts of the spectrum and with respective win rates/variances based on maps played

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We also saw relative inflation during season zero

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Don't get me wrong, compared to a lot of games and alternative common ranking systems BAR OS actually punches above its weight, but it has a lot of theoretical room for improvements.

spice temple
unique stone
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I think the biggest improvement would come from straight up banning some of the most toxic players in the community, that happen to play in this lobby, and their idiotic, childish behavior seems to be tolerated. The lobby would benefit greatly from such a high quality move.

Not even kidding.

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It's always the same guys, always same problem, always early resigning/trolling/insulting everyone on the team.

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If you want names, I can give you a few, but I'm sure you know who I'm referring to.

storm condor
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Wym I'm already banned

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Jokes aside, that barely will change lobby quality when people still keep purposefully losing to lower OS for balancing.

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Even in won games, some people resign so they don't gain OS

sweet bluff
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Give us the names, I legit dont know who u are referring to except jadem that is.

boreal marlin
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Off topic for this thread, although, noted.

unique stone
boreal marlin
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Let me put it this way.

unique stone
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I see that as a genuine problem in the high OS lobby

storm condor
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That problem occurs in everylobby

boreal marlin
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I think I mostly agree with you, sprEEEzy, a lot of the social issues in the high OS lobbies are esentially this:

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But I'd like to keep this thread on topic for actionable things that don't just fall into scope of the moderation team, if that makes sense?

unique stone
boreal marlin
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We're in #1047081727291559986 already so another thread is here fine. Before you do, though:

runic merlinBOT
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Please remember that the moderation and support teams consist entirely of volunteers, with lives, families, jobs and all that. As much as we'd like to be able to consistently stay on top of things for BAR, real life takes priority. Insisting your case be handled faster will be counterproductive at most - we will get to it as soon as we can, but not earlier.

storm condor
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I've seen people previously get moderated for purposefully losing OS. Although their OS wasnt reverted, is there any technical issue or just that's how it's dealt with

boreal marlin
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It's been a tough period for volunteering, for all of us.

unique stone
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I fully understand it's on a volunteering basis, but letting certain individuals harass players every single game, driving them away from the game, is in no one's interest, not even the bully's.

boreal marlin
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I'll also remind everyone for the N-th time and @storm condor especially that if you see deliberate throwing or resigning just before a won game, please report that.

storm condor
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Bcz I agree mostly with the trolling/resigns ruining the gameplay experience more than anything else. People just tend to give up if game doesn't go the ideal way. Although this is just another community issue because no one reports early resigns/purposeful OS loss streaks, the lobby itself doesn't self moderate these actions through kickbans/spec unless the "troll" is low OS.

feral hemlock
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how would banning people

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improve high os games?

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i think everyone above 35 would agree we would rather have people unbanned regardless of what they did just so there is atleast one playable game

sour canopy
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ban jadem plox

storm condor
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Only thing that's gonna improve the lobby is it moderating itself with spec/kickban depending on the severity of the trolling/toxicity. But it's almost impossible to pass a vote of these onto anyone higher than 40os because every player in lobby values high OS too much.

boreal marlin
feral hemlock
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is that to me?

boreal marlin
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Among others, yes

hexed panther
# unique stone I see that as a genuine problem in the high OS lobby

That's a genuine problem in every single competitive team game regardless of the what genre it is. Even More for RTS, even more for 8v8 in an RTS game, this issue will never be solved, stop trying to pretend you can solve it by banning a certain group of players. They will eventually get replaced by a new toxic group of players. IMO people need to stop being little bitches and just need to embrace the toxicity.

boreal marlin
carmine vigil
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Imo what needs to be done is games being forcibly unranked if disparity between top and bottom os is larger then like 20

tardy pike
#

If BAR isn't dead now it would be extra-dead. Who gonna wait for that shit

#

Ultimate lobby killer. I'd literally log off... not playing unranked no thx

carmine vigil
#

Play a smaller format then

tardy pike
#

Because we have so much of that going on right now when we can't find the 30+ players to fill op lobby

#

Its not like the entire lobby that has enough to play 7v7 5v5 6v6 just disintegrates

#

People start leaving when you vote start 7v7

carmine vigil
#

I mean thats just issue with the people honestly, but theres no fixing that anyway

tardy pike
#

and then again at 6v6, and until its 2v2 people just afk and forgot to unready and leave

carmine vigil
#

Im just spitballing my friend, any idea is better than none yeah

tardy pike
#

Priority queue is coming I heard, so that will be a nice improvement.

velvet dawn
#

Nock uncertainty in groups - with a spread of 7-11 os in monthly or quarterly increments?

Starting from the bottom - up. Higher players should mix with up-and-coming players for learning curve.

boreal marlin
marble wren
#

Pun intended?

tardy pike
grizzled bison
#

While I support priority queue, I'm still pretty dubious to if it solves the problem. I feel like all the 20-30 players won't want to wait in queue if there isn't a guarantee they can play. Right now people are willing to wait in queue because they know they'll play. If you get skipped over a few times you probably just leave, then the lobby dies. The low/mid OS players are needed to keep the lobby afloat as the pop drops

fallen sorrel
#

Are queues even that long these days? I remember the days of 20+ people queues but these days it's much less and people are more spread out over different lobbies

strange beacon
#

most of the time finding population is the problem, long queue is a blessing lol

fallen sorrel
tidal grotto
#

so while it solves what the percieved problem is, it actually likely creates an even bigger one

swift olive
fallen sorrel
#

Small team game rating coming soon šŸ™‚

boreal marlin
#

yes šŸ™‚

#

allow us two to be ominous for a bit longer, though

thin tusk
tardy pike
unique stone
exotic pawn
#

Early Resigners getting 1 hour cool-down as penalty might work , or 2 hours even

unique stone
#

Also, what if someone crashes and doesn't come back? What if someone fakes a crash and doesn't come back?

It's tricky. AoE2DE did something like this, and then the game crashed and you'd get a 30 min timeout (playing 1v1!!).

Literal uninstall.

fallen sorrel
# unique stone Also, what if someone crashes and doesn't come back? What if someone fakes a cra...

Good thing is BAR rarely crashes šŸ˜„ They introduced something like that in CoH3, there were a lot of people quick on the resign button at first few losses. It doesn't give you cooldown immediately but only after repeated crashes/quits (so a random crash every now and then won't result in cooldown), it's also time base so if you do it often you get higher cooldown if you don't' do it for a while it gets lower until it resets.

In BAR right now. the penalty for early resigns is that you don't get rating... IMO that's not the best solution, it's an old discussion, rating should be used for balance, not for penalties of this kind, what if you do a lot early game and then eventually die and have to wait for another hour for your team eco to eventually win... How do you determine how early is too early to resign? What could work better for BAR than cooldown or no OS is to auto force spec early resigners for that game.

BAR is game where it's very easy to come back from a losing position, with wreck fields and res bots you can create an entire army out of only energy.... One good bombing run can end the game etc. BAR also has /take so even if someone leaves you can take and win.

unique stone
rain quest
#

Its not clear to my you'll dont boss a player in OP 8v8 lobby and get defacto priority que that way

boreal marlin
#

We're going to move away from requiring !boss for most $command functionality in the future

#

We'll allow voting on them instead

rain quest
#

I guess I was implying the boss can just spec players to get OP players in the lobby

boreal marlin
#

Yeah, and my point is this is something that would be really helpful to automate so that it can be done in a fair manner. It's a small community and you can't rely on people willing to alienate others to keep games running smoothly.

rain quest
#

correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt the point of OP lobby to alienate shitters?

tidal grotto
#

OP lobby is by definition elitist and hostile .-.

#

no reflection on those in it, but that's literally the sign on the door

boreal marlin
#

If that's the kind of lobby you want to play in sure, but I'd just like to watch, play if I can, high level games

rain quest
#

It's alienating to me seeing like 5+ good players in an 8v8 lobby and I cant join cause there are 15+ people in the que.

boreal marlin
#

Anyway, let's try to calm down and keep this thread on topic. Priority queue remains a low priority but we'll get there, if people like it it'll be used. If not, oh well

tawny linden
#

People can/do boss and cull but then you get players being upset and thinking that the person doing the speccing has something against them personally.

Priority queue shifts the blame from an individual to the system instead which is a good thing imo.

I'm still undecided on if I think it will be a good thing overall or if it will just lead to dead lobbies when enabled but it doesn't hurt to give it a shot when/if it gets implemented.

rain quest
#

Sargerass good people. That's a fair point.

I think the easier fix for these "high OS" players would to just play smaller team games. I've noticed a lot of complaints about not being able to get a true OP 8v8 lobby off the ground. Not sure if that's true or not, or just a vocal minority on the toxic discord server

tidal grotto
#

I keep suggesting it, but apparently trying it with a lobby kills it? seems a culture issue really

rain quest
#

trying small team games? @tidal grotto
not sure what you're suggesting

tidal grotto
#

revise map size as players join

rain quest
#

yeah that would make sense, but being 40 OS also means your autism is like peaking. So I understand they cant figure this one out.

tawny linden
#

Agreed on wishing more would be open to going small teams. I find being able to keep a healthy min rating and adjusting team size to match available players leads to much more fun games than lowering min a ton just to get an 8v8.

verbal ridge
#

Priority queue is basically a substitute for matchmaking. You could all leave the host and join a new one with only the highest skilled players but that would be a waste of time

burnt lance
#

Do the lobbies with restricted team sizes still exist? They may prove useful now with different small game ratings, where people really won't want every lobby to trend towards 8v8 or death.

tawny linden
# burnt lance Do the lobbies with restricted team sizes still exist? They may prove useful now...

You mean like lobbies which won't allow higher than a certain player count for each team no matter what? Tbh usually in small teams we just set the team size to 4v4/5v5 and then start whenever we have an even number on both sides while allowing it to fill up while we play and it works pretty well. It might be nice to not have to vote no on increasing it above 5v5 when people join and don't read the smol team lobby title though.

boreal marlin
#

They've been broken ever since rating limits started to appear in lobby names as they try to adjust the name to be "server managed lobby whatever", then set a rating, then try to fix the name...

#

And get stuck in a loop

dusty frigate
storm condor
#

You should see more 5v5 lobbies soon bcz of July tourney

boreal marlin
#

would be good to announce it, probably

storm condor
#

@ everyone very good tool

feral hemlock
#

Idk man the games in a really odd state and improving the game for high os is usually a pretty different list of demands to improving it for low os

#

I guess that's why more and more high are leaving and or getting banned

tidal grotto
#

it's kind of a strata thing, there are a lot of areas that overlap, and some of the conflicts can be addressed via more differential balance

storm condor
#

Imo the highOS lobby population problem will be fixed with

  1. Constant 5v5/4v4 tourneys
  2. Chat filter
gusty vortex
#
  1. lobbies with avg OS of 30+ can only be started with an overwatch member spectating
tardy pike
boreal marlin
#

No no, he has a point

storm condor
#

People keep saying high OS lobby is more toxic, meanwhile in all welcome games I see people dgunning each other's geos and typing entire game duration and nobody usually reports bcz everyone is clueless

#

But wcyd, iiwii

swift olive
#

the higher the TS the far less toxic it gets and usually there is much more humour when it happens, i haven't seen a geo or lab dgun in my life bar and i only exclusively play high ts lobbies, the most ive seen is someone reclaim a building once on strait

feral hemlock
#

high os toxicity is usually just people shit talking eachother

#

and mainly people who play with eachother every single day, i know im not alone when i say i play with these goons every single day and know all of them decently well in an online sense, ofc im toxic to them its banter, but i also get why admins are against this, it can be very unwelcoming.
Also i want to say im not being delusional ofc there is non banter toxicity but i think the majority of shit talking that occurs is just friends talking shit over a game we all play all the time.

#

I always feel for new players who join and don't really understand what sort of game they are going to play, its boring for everyone above 35-40 to play with people under 30 typically, the games are so much more randomised and so much more uninteresting in a gameplay sense because of that

#

Idk what a solution would be to that but its definetley the predominant mentality for high os lobbies

#

like today i specced a friend i was playing with because he was 15 os and we had enough people to field a 30 os lobby, there was a lot of annoyance from him understandably but i alsoo tried to explain how its just how it has to be for good games to occur, this is elitist and what not but i don't see a better solution atm

tawny linden
#

Only other solution to the spec/cull problem right now is for everyone to get on board with moar small games instead of bouncing min up and down but unless we're coming right up on a tourney it seems many stick to mixed op 8v8 instead of being willing to play smaller teams.

feral hemlock
#

small teams isn't the same experience to me

tawny linden
#

Yeah it's different for sure

feral hemlock
#

8v8 has such intricate meta that its just a completely different game in small teams

tawny linden
#

Yeah that's true it's a very different vibe.

sharp mason
#

Ya small teams have never had the enjoyment 8v8 has...even with its flaws...idk?

grizzled bison
#

I didn't enjoy small teams that much until Omega Series, but afterwards I've like to play it every now and then

tardy pike
#

Skill issue. People would enjoy smaller team games if they got better at the game. Itā€™s the same with 1v1 being least played because nobody else to carry you or blame when you lose so you have the harsh only the reality of your own weaknesses. In a 16 player game thereā€™s not much agency and you canā€™t feel your own incompetence until the rest of your team is less competent than you are.

tidal grotto
#

my research suggests 1v1 being least played as it devolves too much into flinging and firefighting, very fragile and snowbally, with too wide a front for most players to APM manage. partly a map design issue, too small and/or too open. people reject that gameplay, and prefer more stable games that can reach T2 and beyond

spice temple
#

Why is nezah so good

hexed basin
tardy pike
hexed basin
tardy pike
#

not really... being baD at 1v1 will yield you a 20% win rate if you're lucky... that's not really relative to your beginning skill level at all since the learning curve is so steep and there are a lack of players that want to stick around for the ringer to give you an accurate 50% starting point.

tidal grotto
#

just not a good gameplay experience for most people

marble wren
#

Honestly it's still much more positional of a game than ZvZ ever was

tidal grotto
#

oh and the maps are all tiny and you have no chokes/ramps

gusty vortex
#

you messed up countering my 3 tick opening properly gg next

tidal grotto
tawny linden
# tardy pike imo this is just a competency issue. its a different game mode that requires dif...

I think maps play a big part in the blob warfare impression of 1v1, something like CCR can and does devolve into blob bars at all levels (not always but often) but that's just the nature of 1v1 CCR

To get to the blob warfare ofc you also need to be on top of your expansion/harrass/defense/intel/second and third lab/e scaling etc to keep the game even enough to reach big blobs but all people see is big tank balls go brrrrr

Lately there has been alot more variety in 1v1 maps at least than CCR all day which is nice.

tidal grotto
#

maybe we need a 1v1 map drive

marble wren
#

Yeah, Red Comet gameplay very different from CCR gameplay

tidal grotto
#

onyx is a nice one

tawny linden
#

Idk I think there's a good spread lately. canis/heartbreak come to mind as some popular maps with interesting features.

hexed basin
#

I love onyx cauldron but nobody ever want to play it for some reason

tardy pike
#

I waited a long long time before dipping my toes in 1v1... basically straight to 30 OS, but as soon as I started challenging 40 OS level my win rate was down to 20% and at one point I lost like 35 games in a row or some shit like that. So I don't think the learning curve and the brutal lessons are avoidable simply because you don't knwo what you don't know until you've experienced it.

marble wren
#

That's more or less my experience as well. I have no clue how to break the 40 OS wall currently.

hexed basin
#

So far I've hit a plateau and I'm relatively content with it. For others it's going to be 20 os rather than 35. For some it's 10. As I've said, competency is relative.

marble wren
#

I think the 1v1 journey did improve my gameplay overall

tawny linden
#

1v1 is tough to find well balanced matches in that ~25-35 OS area imo. It's either stomp someone below you which isn't fun or fight someone ~40+ and most likely get stomped which I don't mind because it's good for learning but then it isn't much fun for them most likely.

river briar
#

Ya it's hard to find balanced 1v1s, and because of how snowbally it doesn't take a very large skill difference to lead to a not fun game, at lower skill levels anyway

strange beacon
#

1v1 difference between 30 and 40 is a lot

river briar
#

even like 20 vs 25 in 1v1 is a lot, although my perception is that 1v1 os is not that accurate on average because people don't grind it as much, and populations don't mix as much

#

20 vs 25 in 8v8 is a coin flip

distant elk
strange beacon
#

tanks into bots or bots into tanks into air, t2 almost never. no room for slow units

strange beacon
frank hatch
#

I don't actually like T1 very much, and 1v1 is T1: The Game.

thin tusk
#

Atypical 1v1 is great: by that I mean playing 1v1 on the larger maps in ways that a meta hasn't been developed (my examples are vertical spawns on all that glitters and island starts on straits, was great fun)

#

But that can only happen about twice a month, otherwise it's all trash newbs or get trashed by 40 OS on CCR

#

I don't resent them for trashing me but it is what it is, and it's the same for everyone. If I play them my OS will drop to 20, which I myself don't mind, but then it's not fair to others coming in and thinking 20 OS from playing 5 silvers is the same as 20 OS from playing mate 5 times. Very hard to find well matched opponents in a fun match that isn't decided in the first few mins

#

I think I disagree that it's map design though. With a bit of creativity you can have great 1v1 on just about any of the symmetrical maps and there's almost no 8v8 map that can't also play well as 1v1 beyond the "we don't do that here"

hexed basin
thin tusk
#

Well yeah, but it's almost going to be impossible to design a map that stops 1v1 becoming at least partially a control sophistication task at the higher levels

#

If we put a choker collar on it that makes it look like a rebellious teenage girl I imagine it would just become a boring tech race

hexed basin
#

And maps with short rush distances become a knife fight. There really isn't a 1v1 map where you play tug of war in a single lane. As much as the current 1v1 crowd might say it kills all the tactics, there are likely people looking for that experience

thin tusk
#

Though I agree there's probably some who would like that. A few static defense maps.

#

But that's almost against the apparent BAR design goals šŸ¤”

marble wren
#

Diversity in the 1v1 map pool is important for improvement IMO. I suck at playing on small maps right now because I've put a lot of focus into macro lately, and am favoring maps like Cold Place or Canis River.

hexed basin
#

having a lane map increases diversity

thin tusk
#

I think the real almost undeniable thing with 1v1 is we need good accurate match making and a large population.

#

If the diversity isn't there and I know who's going to win before the start button is pressed it's a bit why bother with opening a lobby.

tidal grotto
heady valve
#

Small population makes rooms more efficient for matchmaking than "matchmaker" for now

#

It's a "social" issue not a technical for now the way I see it

thin tusk
# tidal grotto you can make it unranked in those cases

Ive done a couple with unranked and with handicaps, but it's more so the general effect of everything combined. You gotta first get past that social barrier of entering a room with a stranger (or starting up a room to try to attract them). Then you gotta get someone from gen pop who wants to join and play an unbalanced match. I can play the 40 OS silvers, but then I look worse than I really am because 1v1 OS moves so fast, then it feels like I'm smurfing when someone with 10-20 OS comes in and wants to play. There's a real missing middle effect in 1v1 imo.

heady valve
#

In 1v1 I meant, forgot to add

thin tusk
#

In the "reasonably good but not absolutely elite" range it's almost prohibitively impossible to find a good 1v1 matchup in a finite time ime.

#

(granted I'm generally on at dead times which doesn't help)

heady valve
#

If someone pushes the argument that having matchmaking incentivizes lower population on a strata to play. Then yes, matchmaking could help.

tawny linden
# thin tusk Ive done a couple with unranked and with handicaps, but it's more so the general...

I'm in sort of the same boat. I was a bit over 30 1v1 for a time then lost a bunch grinding against 40+ which is a great practice but I'm at 24 now after uncertainty bump and in a place where fighting typical 20-25 OS coming from noob 1v1 lobbies feels mean but I still get wrecked 9/10 times against truly good players like BC/Nezah/Therxy etc.

Ocassionally I get some really fun even games against the like of Booty/BlueGecko/Irish but there just isnt a huge population in that reasonably good but not pro level 1v1 range.

I'm also on NA evenings which doesn't help for finding ppl.

carmine vigil
#

Offtopic u pepegas

hexed basin
dusty frigate
#

I think we should ban people I don't like

carmine barn
#

TLDR. Is the discussion getting anywhere?

heady valve
#

Depends, what's the goal?

carmine barn
#

I am guessing improving state of high os lobbies?

heady valve
#

Well, that's a big ambition for a discord thread innit

#

You can discuss all you want, only putting the work in with a decent vision of how to do that does the trick

verbal ridge
#

Icy run is a 1v1 lane map but itā€™s not official anymore?

tardy pike
#

Its improved a lot since reset

thick cypress
#

Wow. What a post. And what a thread. Feel like I should send it to my Kindle.

I have some thoughts...just basic for now. But essentially if your addressing the quality at the top. You equally need to address the quality at the bottom. Awesome Ingredients in - > Awesome sandwich out.

  1. The tutorial scope and introduction needs to up its game big time. If I'm not mistaken it still takes you to the most basic and rudimentary explanation of how to eco. There should be a consolidated library of YouTube, replays, barcasts tutorials , streams etc. Not the whole Internet but a condensed collection of modern techniques and mechanics aimed at equipping new players properly with the right know how... And mindset in the game. Starting right from go have these players inducted through a number of monkey see monkey do situations. Watch this video. Now you try. Or something. It's shocking how under prepared or equipped new players are and just how impactful that is to every player in the spectrum in micro and macro environment of the game. Give the players the right start, the quality of games will improve all across the board as the player base grows and matures.

  2. Consider the impact of quality of play, training for a tournament has on that group or tier. Referring to the stagnating leader board discussion, the same people are always playing in the tournaments... Or at least the same few are always at the top taking home the cash. And by all means all the more power to you.

But perhaps a few more carrots need to be dangled to encourage growth.

I would suggest perhaps organising tournaments at all levels. For instance.
Under 10's. Under 20's (11-20) under 30's(21-30) etc. With some oversight caveats obviously, we can't have MBT crushing it in an an under 10's tournament šŸ˜‚. OS history would need to be considered.

But I'm certain at the very lowest levels, bragging rights and maybe something a little extra, would be enough to encourage....

#

Younger and inexperienced players to work together and plan strategies, learn, and try... To win... Which would undoubtedly lead to a higher quality of player entering lower and the higher OS lobbies in the long run.

#

And perhaps with any luck circumvent someone giving you 2 wind on the moon.

#

Hypothetically taking quarter seasons into account. Quarterly Galas could be held before the end of the season so that skills of all tiers could compete. And if they win get their badge on the wall.

I still remember getting my first football trophy. I was about 6 and sucked, probably just got one for handing out the oranges. But I still remember it. I still remember it making me want to be a better player. So I could get a bigger trophy next time. You know what I mean.

verbal ridge
thick cypress
royal mirage
#

Out of curiousity has anyone polled high level players that quit?

iron kernel
#

Polled for what?

#

I would say the majority of high level players who quit did so because they or too many of their friends got banned

grizzled bison
iron kernel
#

I guess I personally cannot confirm but I believe that Mightysheep, Indaclub, Nezah, Novaya, Shox, choice, MBT, and it feels to me like many others (my list is in no particular order).

#

Feels like every week or so I hear some high level player got banned again or w/e

heady valve
#

Shox is not banned afaik

#

Zow was banned for having alt account (Clyret)

#

Should we make exceptions if the os is above a certain amount?

grizzled bison
#

I didn't think Novaya was banned?

sharp mason
#

Shox has been playing in op strait lobby

iron kernel
#

I guess they aren't necessarily permanent bans, but it's so often that you hear people getting banned and often it feels like it wasn't even that serious or w/e

grizzled bison
#

Choice, YEP, and Clyret are the only high OS people I know offhand that are currently eating perma/long-term bans

heady valve
#

It's zow

grizzled bison
#

Well, same person

heady valve
#

Yeah, I just hate his deceit being considered the canonical name

grizzled bison
#

I agree with Goopy in principle though, it feels like every High-OS player that is vacationed/quits takes more with them

heady valve
#

Yeah, some silly things happened in the past. Some legitimate grudges, others an attractive hate for authority

#

I'm pretty sure the griefer perfiswhatever thing is someone who had high os

grizzled bison
#

I don't know the YEP history so I can't speak to it

river briar
#

personally I haven't really cared about trying to play team games at a high level since the com update just because I find the high level meta to be very boring and not the same game that I enjoyed for the year prior, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other players who have been playing for a long time feel similarly, but I don't know for sure. I haven't even been playing long at all compared to a lot of the vets

grizzled bison
#

But I will say that Choice and Zow are missed. I enjoyed having dentge + playeur comments in my games.

grizzled bison
steep quiver
#

dolfy is gone for months šŸ˜­

river briar
#

I think it's a lot more than than just the teching, all volatility is gone from the early game from the change of com explosions and reduced metal, and it's all just com repair micro

#

I think this game is inherently ripe for degenerate tempo strategies that are currently all the rage, and it was only ever held in check by the volatility of com gameplay

grizzled bison
#

I didn't play enough games pre com-update to have a legitimate opinion, but I still feel like coms easily hold back an insane amount of stuff. When watching earlier youtube videos from 1.5 years ago it feels like so much of the population just had no idea what was going on, and the older generation misses the freedom of being able to win with unrefined/random plays. Like watch some of the Raghna tutorial videos, a lot of the opponents in them just seem clueless

river briar
#

That is certainly also true

unique stone
#

As a new player I think the commander balance is very interesting. Other things should def get looked at before the com.

heady valve
#

The current dgun mechanic is silly imo (com invulnerability), I really like the supreme commander overcharge thing

#

I feel comupdate is better than previous though, for all its faults

hexed basin
#

As someone who hasn't played pre-update and with no multiplayer experience in any other TA games, I don't find com dgun immunity any more silly than having a somehow unreproducible gun that 1shots everything in the first place

heady valve
#

Yeah, both are silly

#

The main argument is for commander scaling utility in late game, fair enough. I won't dive into the endless dgun discussions we used to have lol

tawny linden
#

I hated the com update initially from so many years experience with the old way but I have grown to enjoy the positioning battle to block dguns and such as well. It feels pretty nice when you get that dgun block bounce effect and save something important. I do think there's room for improvements/another rework in the future but I'm now torn on whether I think bringing back d-gunning coms would be good.

verbal ridge
#

Hardly ever experience blocking dguns as either the enemy just walks closer to bomb or walks out of llt reach

grizzled bison
#

I think the bigger issue was the no damage drop off range from com death. I remember thinking that I just fully reset lanes with a sneaky-pete and my commander. It also felt like some units were just explosion bait, like stouts, because the death explosion would level everything in its path

verbal ridge
#

Blitz could kill a com now itā€™s almost impossible

heady valve
#

blitz? cries in gator

royal wing
heady valve
#

do we know for sure?

royal wing
#

yes thats the gru people

heady valve
#

whats that?

royal wing
#

entirely seperate group who does not like our moderation team
and generally likes to harass our mods
they have a manifesto somewhere

#

they started sometime around january of this year

#

and yes some of them are impersonating devs/mods

tawny linden
#

Hey we're big enough now to have a group dedicated to wasting their time trying to troll everyone. As annoying as it is every-time they do it to a lobby I'm in, I like to think about the fact that I'm still playing a fun game while they're wasting hours of their life trying to troll.

royal wing
#

and the tech meta is entirely down to map design
maps like DSDR, straits
actively encouraged the tech meta
maps like bismuth and koom actively discourage tech meta a lot

heady valve
#

omg they have a discord, that's a gold mine

grizzled bison
#

I'm sure there's something more spicy locked behind permissions, but I remember being pretty disappointed with the content there

heady valve
#

I provide glorious ban evasion techniques or to phrase in a less confrontational tone ~ I explain to people how* the devs use your personal data to determine if an account is a smurf or not
mostly what i do here šŸ˜›

Come on, they could make it harder

verbal ridge
#

Gru group sounds like a Russian secret service

river briar
#

I actually remembered why specifically I stopped wanting to play in high os lobbies, I lost lane at the start of a few games because I didn't transport my com to front and my opponent did, and I thought to myself "this is just so stupid, why I am even bothering to play this game." it's like rock paper scissors, and only if you tie, you actually get an interesting game.

I'll still play high os rotato lobbies if it's the only one around and I feel like playing it, but frankly com has been hilariously op and meta warping for over a year now, and it doesn't make me want to actually play. To be clear I don't think com update must absolutely be reversed, but it is the cause of long-standing balance and tempo problems that are not being resolved, and until they are resolved, either with com nerfs/changes or other game macro changes, I am not interested in trying hard

hexed basin
#

although that won't save you from having to tryhard in a literal op lobby

river briar
#

ya this was like 6 mos ago or something. Anyway it's just another symptom of com being op, we can remove com trans but the game still has a tempo problem derived from com - and personally, I actually like the ability to transport com and theoretically leads to interesting games and positions, except for the fact that it is unpunishable because com is op

strange beacon
#

i imagine it must make the opening lanes more stable and predictable

#

not half the lanes get com mobility and other half don't

tidal grotto
river briar
river briar
# tidal grotto what did you think of the old legion com system?

I don't have a strong opinion on it tbh, i never played much legion. imo the big thing is just greedy coms are near impossible to punish early with very little payoff even if you do, leading to only 1 "correct" way to play front. this could be reversed by reversing com update, or maybe just reducing com health by a bit and keeping other changes, or maybe reducing t2 lab costs, or nerfs to static defenses, or buffing pawn and grunt, or maybe other com nerfs, etc. I think there's a lot of room to change things to fix it, but instead we just play degenerate-tempo-strategy-whackamole, for a year straight. It's not fun, and I would guess that a lot of older bar players feel similarly. I just feel so restricted in early game, that 5 seconds of com repair micro decides the whole thing, that I can't take any risks attacking, that I can't tech, that I can't combomb, etc. BAR doesn't play the way it used to, and I don't like it. I also feel the communism meta is partially a symptom of this

thin tusk
#

I'm for the comm update changes (as comm bomb mechanic was twitchy and flawed and majorly frustrating to play against when you have a 500ms ping), but the general evolution of crowded 8v8 meta, I think, almost regardless of any changes is going to be towards optimisation. Contrary to two years ago I think we've actually got a higher population of relatively high skilled people, and when you get 16 high skilled people in one room, you're either going to get "high balance" (everyone puts their eggs into one basket to optimise or there is one key point on the map which decides everything) or "low balance" where it's a distributed grind (which I actually like personally) where there's a lot of simultaneous micro and arm wrestling

#

Now that being said, its rare to get 16 highly skilled people in the same room. And that means in practice I find it's still often in practice a mix of boosting into the high strat with waiting to see which low OS team member gets rolled first that determines the match

dreamy nebula
#

It's time to turn the commander into the sup com commander. That was a great time. Still is.

tawny linden
heady valve
#

Commander in faf is hyper unit, in bar it's a bit super

#

We want super while retaining the ability to hold moderately but not excessively a front

#

8 pawns or so well microed should kill a com imo

#

I like sup com overcharge

#

Make it ancost per shot while activated, the cost should be prohibitive enough to not be full in early game but deal with small skirmishes, and retain ability to be useful in later game

#

That was always my opinion on this matter, anyway. Unless someone wants to work on it, and make this an actionable item let's not waste time reviving eternal discussions

thick cypress
#

I think the com update is good. Being able to dgun a com is stupid. The mechanic of it being be able to negate the most destructive force in the game for the sole purpose of defending an LLT is great. It makes a difference. The alternative would be just a big holes in the ground on the frontlines and every team down 4 commanders before the 6 minute mark.

Also... I totally think coms should have a small tactical jump ability. Would require a ton of energy. Only become available when com is under 10% and get him just far enough out of reach. Maybe a gauntlet range or something. He could either chronoshift. Or do a cool supetfast transformer jet animation thing.

vivid vigil
#

I got a crazy idea. Rework the dgun mechanic a bit. Make it so below a certain energy storage amount (Number based) it instead does a % of a full sized dgun. (Doesn't reach as far or is weaker in terms of damage) This would mean early game commanders aren't as powerful and a bit weaker so they cannot solo entirely while potentially having it able to become even stronger for late game to a certain degree but with a multiplicative diminishing return (x10 for y% increase in damage or length) so its far harder to make it more powerful but easier to scale up to a average level that exists at the moment.

Might not be a suitable idea as it would hurt the team that loses their energy production but a partial solution to that could be made if needed.

heady valve
#

Whatever change to behavior of the weapon needs to account for balance on high tempo plays (such as tzar rush)

unkempt swift
#

As a lower elo player I dislike having to play with higher OS players, I learn nothing and I do not feel I am fighting on even terms at all.

It feels in some part as if some mid level OS player (like 23-30) who join low elo players are just farming OS. It's not fun because they have such a huge impact on the side of the map they are on.

They'll make a lobby that says "Max OS 30" and it's like some person whose OS level 29 hosting a lobby with a bunch of chev ones.

I just want to fight someone at my level, not a lobby balanced to be perceived even.

hexed basin
spice temple
#

but i am not confident that would happen without some kind of matchmaking and a corresponding increase in player volume

echo jungle
#

There is alot here that I have not read, but maybe to start uncertainty can just be increased instead of reset to the default of 5. for example if a player in top1 or 2 spot only plays 1 or 2 games a month, the uncertainty will keep increasing untill they reach a cap of say the same a new player has ie 20. This means if your not playing enough to maintain your uncertainty at a reasonable level, you cannot be #1

spice temple
#

Maybe there just needs to be something to grind for other than os.

#

Cosmetics, prestige, things that donā€™t affect gameplay but can be rewarded with playtime. Unit skins, player icons, commander skins

#

Things to take player attention away from specifically os which is ultimately a meaningless number beyond attempting to balance the game

#

A lot of problems seem to stem from ā€œthe undesirable behavior of players seeking to maximize os advantage either by artificially inflating or lowering it for various intentsā€

tawny linden
#

While something to grind sounds good, in practice unless it is "skill based" or some other sort of competitive metric I don't see it doing much to alleviate the issue with OS focus as competitive players like to compare themselves to others and see where they stand.

And skill based rewards besides wins in a team game like this open up the can of worms of players playing for the stats not the win.

Idk it's tough unless we move to some sort of division system.

unique stone
#

With how many ways there are to abuse the current OS system, I wouldn't tie anything meaningful to it.

thin tusk
#

Why do we need something to grind for? That's not improvement. My position has always been a we need a skill and balance and leaderboard system with the fewest possible observations to present accurate information. Does chess or go or sport need grinding mechanics?Jesus we're not Facebook, and we don't need to be, the threads about making it better not worse. Incentivising or using consumption as the metric to maximise is like saying fast food is the height of cuisine and advertising is the pinnacle of culture. We can aim a bit higher than that.

#

And before anyone says that "but we need more games", be aware that ELO and OS and similar rating systems all have the problem incentivising top players to selectively avoid matches where they can arbitrage rating by skipping matches, avoiding maps or matchups or opponents where they believe the rating system is miscalibrated.

#

And in many ways it incentivises smurfing as well. We see the same thing in chess and other games as well with similar systems as ours. For the record I've said our implementation is actually quite good as far as comparisons go, but I like to think we can be adults and acknowledge some of its flaws without taking it as a personal attack against BAR or individual players

tawny linden
#

I think grind is maybe a bad term but the thought of having something to strive for besides OS is a good one imo (I still remember the day I unlocked full hayabusa and katana in halo 3)

I don't personally think it will help anything with high OS lobbies though since imo most high OS are competitive by nature and would still care primarily about OS/win rate/leaderboard position over some unlockable cosmetics.

For the player base that doesn't participate in higher OS games it would be neat to have imo but that's not really what this thread is focused on.

unique stone
#

Achievements of some sort wouldnt hurt anyone

  • "1000 cortex games"
  • "100 wins"
  • "reach 20 OS"
hexed basin
thin tusk
#

Well grinders are, but chess existed and went on just fine before chess.com or whatever the current central body is, and culturally we're all (well most of us) enmeshed in a world that says consumption is the highest achievement. But unless BAR is trying for profit or something explicitly, i'd like to try to keep away from enshittifying it for as long as possible and keep it focused on a game that allows for wide, spontaneous, deep and varied strategy as much as possible over explicit popularity, eyeballs, grind etc

#

Obviously there is some balance there... We need to stop the game going to zero, for instance...

#

But if I can't get people to decide that maximising engagement isn't the explicit goal of BAR (as I mention, i'd like the strategy aspect to be the explicit goal with niche popularity just a nice natural side effect), I'd like it to be recognised that there is at least some conflict there and we trade other things off we initially valued to achieve it.

#

And we REALLY shouldn't confuse high skill play just with getting eyeballs or making things applicable for streamers or catering to grinders.

iron kernel
thin tusk
#

While there is a natural and necessary relation between skill and time, and the highest skill will express itself with the most time input...

grizzled bison
#

I think you can also incentivize modes/factions with it, which is nice. People will grind for anything. If you have achievements gated behind win x duel games, win x small team games, etc, you can encourage more players to experiment with those modes which is nice.

#

Also with things like win X games are core/arm

#

Play 50 different big team maps

thin tusk
#

I still dream of a world where we don't make time explicit... Where we can have a relatively high skill cohort that can be recognised as high skill, not the highest, but whom can only play say 5-10 games a month

grizzled bison
#

As long as achievements don't target in-game metrics I think it's completely fine to have a host of them.

thin tusk
#

And tournaments are one way of doing that which I think caters well to both streamers and intermittent players

thin tusk
#

But secondly the dark side of me loves the idea of "achievement unlocked: win the match by self destructing an afus inside your enemies base"

#

I just don't see a feasible way of doing it that doesn't cluster-fuck the game through bad incentives šŸ˜…

grizzled bison
#

I hear you, but anything along those lines commonly incentivizes non-standard / toxic play. "Don't resign, I am at 45 AFUs and I only need 5 more to get the achievement!"

tawny linden
storm condor
#

People who can't play a ton shouldn't be on the leaderboard anyways.

#

LB should display current best players and they'll have lowest uncert anyways

#

But who cares, all this doesn't matter since if u care about LB/OS rating there's alot of ways to abuse lowskill lobbies n get it.

sharp mason
#

LB is dodge olympics

thin tusk
#

Speaking purely hypothetically. Current OS and leaderboard mechanics basically necessitates it.

strange beacon
#

a lot of games needed to leaderboard (at least 100 per season), but nothing you can't do in a few weeks

#

you need that many games to confirm ranking, maybe changing map pool too.

#

but on the flip side if someone really is that built different shouldn't force them to play endless games to reach # 1

thin tusk
#

I think it's reasonable to have a rational minimum and representative number of matches

#

So you need a representative mix of maps and opponents and matches for your rating to be comparable to others (who also need to pass that metric), but that once the metric is achieved it should basically be just straight up comparisons

#

Someone who plays 250 matches shouldn't be penalised in comparison to someone who plays 500 if the underlying model actually thinks they both have 40 OS for example

strange beacon
#

indeed

#

perhaps leaderboard uncertainty can have a minimum that it cares about

#

internal rating - (max (uncertainty_threshold, uncertainty)*3)

storm condor
thin tusk
#

yes, high uncertainty, so there needs to be a threshold if any variance of the measure is likely to result in wild swings of OS rating. But once that's calculated and they've passed some threshold where everyone has relatively tight estimates, including uncertainty (let alone uncertainty with a large coefficient) serves to emphasize who's played the most. And that's without even touching upon the fact that variation of results is probably a better estimate of uncertainty than number of matches played.

tawny linden
# storm condor Because high uncertainty is supposed to mean that the representation of their sk...

I would have agreed before we started bumping uncertainty seasonally. If someone plays all game modes, duel/ffa/small team/large team the amount of games to lower uncertainty again in all those modes will take months even playing a few games a day.

Sure by the end of the season (if it lasts as long as the previous) it won't matter because most frequent players will have dropped their uncertainty plenty by that time even at a few games a day but for the first months of the season playtime imo factors into it too much compared to the raw skill/balance OS.

And yes being on leaderboard doesn't really mean much but it's still fun to see your name on there even if you're not competing for the dodge olympics top 10 spots imo.

radiant nova
#

it's been wild to me that you can get up to 25 free leaderboard OS if you play to the maximum compared to new account, but then again it's less weird inactive accounts on the leaderboard & you do get rewarded for playing

storm condor
#

Everyone keeps saying that "X will be better by the end of the season" when majority of the gametime is occuring with everyone with high uncertainty. What does it matter if everything will be supposedly perfect by the end of the season if 90% of the season gets spent with ridiculous OS numbers on players and a new season resets the uncert anyways?

#

Everytime a season reset comes, everyone basically accepts that lobby will be unbalanced for 2-3months

thick cypress
tawny linden
# storm condor Everyone keeps saying that "X will be better by the end of the season" when majo...

That was my point, I don't like that the beginning of the season leaderboard is heavily weighted towards those who can grind games to lower uncertainty. It resolves itself eventually but imo it takes too long.

On the topic of balance being thrown off, I think the uncertainty increase to 5 wasn't so bad? It's way better than the absolute madness that was resetting everyone to default skill in season 0.

storm condor
#

The whole OS abusing to lower/increase it significantly got worse but apart from that its good

grizzled bison
#

I think 5 as a starting value is great, but increasing the drop in uncertainty might be needed. Perfi said it was ~500 games to get to min uncertainty now, I think that should be lowered substantially. Maybe a 100 games? Especially because Uncertainty can now go up

spice temple
spice temple
tawny linden
# grizzled bison I think 5 as a starting value is great, but increasing the drop in uncertainty m...

I agree with this, I do think reaching min uncertainty sooner would be good and help alleviate my issues with leaderboard being skill - 3x uncertainty. The issue would still be there but would resolve itself in a much more timely fashion.

Min uncertainty is also higher now isn't it? I think it was supposed to mostly stop dropping around 2-2.5 iirc?

As long as we're not dropping our uncertainty to something below 2 anymore then reaching min uncertainty sooner isn't too bad imo as you can still get relatively decent movement at that point and won't run into the situation we had before where you can drop low enough to not have any real change on a win/loss.

thick cypress
#

You know what would also be awesome. Is custom dgun animations. Full haduken. @spice temple. Also I'll shut up now šŸ˜‚

storm condor
#

Not having a clear objective affects how people playeur the game

verbal ridge
thin tusk
# storm condor if you have nothing to grind for, then why will people put effort into being top...

I see the social status afforded by being listed in the leaderboard and the personalities that seek it separate from the psychology of grinding. The motivation behind the first one is split between the psychology of being a better player and mastery, and the need for social recognition. The psychology behind grinding leans more towards social recognition, because it provides a substitution of time and resources that achieves social recognition. The differences are subtle because all mastery takes time, so it's easy to confuse and conflate the two. But not all time brings mastery, so by using time as a proxy (either indirectly or directly) we actually are disincentivising general mastery and skill expression and incentivising social recognition and the psychology more comfortable with repetitive and static play (and probably to a non-minor extent a little bit of toxicity, because as a general rule people with the tenacity required to maximise social recognition and the propensity for repetitive optimisation to achieve it aren't the most pro-social creatures)

strange beacon
#

plp grind for personal achievement too

#

yeah true it's not the most effective way, but you are trying the match making rng and you prolly are learning something from the games + reps

#

leaderboard is proof of achievement public and private

#

if you take that away you will lose a lot of potential hard core motivated players which hurts the opponent pool

#

actual strong play and decision making shown in replays is the true mark of skill, but that's much harder to show to others

heady valve
#

Can someone please improve the state of high os lobbies and the overall game

tawny linden
grizzled bison
strange beacon
#

dayum
average os 40

sharp mason
#

Ya wow

thick cypress
hardy prairie
thick cypress
#

I'm joking obviously. Just the obsurdity of skill and game time condensed like that in a lobby is funny and that the only way to make it a even more lobster would be to boot the 5 chevs. And because even the lower Chev players have an OS of 6 million makes it even more ridiculous. Still it would have been funny.

brisk falcon
#

do we have player stats since the last reset, like, avg games played, concurrent players, lobby size (like are more people now playing smaller team games) - are less or more people playing the game?

native gorge
#

How hard would it be to implement voice chat in the game? BAR's most popular game mode is 8v8, which screams voice chat implementation so people can coordinate. For newer players still trying to learn from pros, having to try to read chat while playing the game can be difficult, and make the pros feel like they are working double to cover for new players, contributing to the unfun feeling for pros in mixed lobbies

strange beacon
#

use discord

#

forcing plp to go into voice chat will just make it more toxic

#

even in mobas randos don't use voice most of th etime

native gorge
#

Thats usually the best option for friends playing, but an integrated option lowers the inhibitions people have to setting up a discord chat channel for random people to chat in when they don't need to do it at all

#

I don't think forcing it is the answer, but making it easily available might help

#

just a suggestion

sharp mason
hardy prairie
# native gorge How hard would it be to implement voice chat in the game? BAR's most popular gam...

Ingoring the technical challenge of adding voice chat there is another huge factor to consider. bandwidth costs.

I just grabbed an 11 minute replay. The file is 844 kb in size ~ 1.28 Kb/s
The game server and/or clients need to pass that game data around.

By comparison what do voice data streams look like ?
I'm thinking back to the days of vent and teamspeak. Everyone complained that the lower bandwidth codecs sounded awful.

How many players need to send/receive the data ?
8v8 doesn't sound so bad. But what about the bigger lobbies to support 32v32

I guess that would be implemented on different hardware so it's not going to put a load on the game servers; maybe it does
however someone has to pay for the bandwidth and compute voice would generate.

Then the question is - why do we need voice chat ?
Voice chat talking shit with your mates is OK. But "your mates" is better handled by Discord already I feel

The brightworks stream can get chatty - people will go into a channel to avoid non-game chatter.
In-game chat is something I would probably mute. the 'quality' of public chat is dubious as best.

A well present ping wheel of voice opions would be a better solution.
"air support needed"
"assistance required"
"enemy pushing hard"
"t2 units available"

something so we dont have to read team chat; but do get tactical and strategic information called out

native gorge
#

I like the idea of a voiced alerts pinging system, though how it would communicate which team member is in need would be an interesting problem to solve. I don't think that bandwidth issues would be that bad. For one, you wouldn't want to save the voice chatter in the playback, and two, If you implement a peer to peer system you can offload the bandwidth usage to the players themselves. There would be some issues dealing with hiding the ip addresses, though, so i can see how it might prove more difficult than anyone wants to tackle

heady valve
#

It's kind of a solven problem except the someone needs to develop and maintain the thing part lol

#

It's not something bar really needs I agree though.

thick cypress
final ibex
native gorge
unique stone
#

I wouldn't want voice in an 8v8 game.

native gorge
#

Well, at this point I understand that voice integration is probably not something anyone is looking at adding any time soon, but the overall resistance to having it seems.... odd to me? For 8v8 competitive team gameplay, its like saying you want a delicious cake at high skill level gameplay, but please don't add any sugar to the cake, and each of the bakers involved can only communicate the recipe needs sugar by playing charades unless they go out of their way to get walkie talkies for themselves, and each baker needs to do that separately.

unique stone
#

8 players is just too many to have in one channel, potentially strangers

#

We're talking by default, of course

native gorge
#

That seems more like an opinion though on how many is too many. It's not like the option of voice chat makes it mandatory. There are plenty of games with voice chat integration that have a large portion of the user base that doesn't use it., but the ability to use it is very nice for the people who want to use it

heady valve
#

Yeah it's not a requirement it's a nice to have (tm)

verbal ridge
#

Adding voice would be a very low priority as we can already use discord

heady valve
#

Sometimes at game start I want to have someone on my team to chat with, but only because placing and etc and coordinating opening discord etc. would be nice to just click on chat voice channel and see who's there. But ye very low priority for the investment

dense path
#

So when is high os priority queue option coming? It is still desperately needed

exotic pawn
heady valve
heady valve
unique stone
tidal grotto
#

re wall to wall rocketbots, this is the latest form of the tweak I've been testing. DPS is unchanged, it merely gives the rockets a slight arc, meaning they don't deny units walking up to the bots and shooting them, and as such puts them to support role & makes for a varied frontline again

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#

notable replays would be very useful to see, but ideally from people who are used to it, initial reactions usually not too helpful as they try to use old habits still

swift olive
#

so if we use that tweak, what's the gameplay will be like, janus stouts, core arty spam? thugs rezzball? all of this looks less interesting

tidal grotto
#

very mixed from what I've seen so far, and it's not like rockets nonviable, just not a sole antieverything unit

#

it may need tuning further still, eg giving it a shallower arc so the end slope is less avoidable, potentially, while still having a window where they can be rushed at by applicable units

tawny linden
#

If the rockets have a slight arc does that mean we can stack them and they can shoot over each other easier?

distant elk
#

they can shoot over each other np

its just irrelevant, cause they cant hit anything that moves

tidal grotto
#

only time it sort of matters is if they're behind thugs or something

tawny linden
#

I was thinking in choke point situations it might make the potential dps higher as well as behind thugs yes. Will be interested to try it out.

tidal grotto
strange beacon
#

does this mean they aren't as countered by walls anymore?

#

can they physically target something right in front of them? how does the arc look then

#

seems promising

tidal grotto
strange beacon
#

So they still have near direct fire against grunts nearby? I thought the change is supposed to make them worse at hitting nearby units

#

Contrast the amba

tidal grotto
#

they're just as effective against anything static, including grunts that don't move

swift olive
#

i don't see the point trying to push random changes to the game

tidal grotto
#

it's not random... if you can't see an issue with every front being 95% rocketbots then not sure what to say to you

tidal grotto
swift olive
#

Zecrus clearly made little nerf to rockets and he also could revert the dmg/attackspeed buff they received a while back to combat the op whistlers
many players have suggested to revert it, so thug can be viable in more situations and stouts/janus also need a little help versus rockets but not very much
The current balance is very close to have all 4 labs viable, it's currently favoring rockets but we already see players doing quick veh lab transition after the bot lab

strange beacon
tidal grotto
#

probably yes, will see what I can cook

tawny linden
# tidal grotto couple of random examples

Hmm interesting, seems like it might also be a buff for shooting off cliffs/over small hills if I'm not mistaken as the rockets could sit further back and not expose themselves to direct counter fire.

I like that it pushes bot lab into a more mixed composition of thug + rocket instead of one or the other but seems like it will definitely need to be put through the testing ringer.

Maybe we can get some good testing lobbies going this weekend with just rocket bot tweak.

distant elk
swift olive
#

but i specced a few, i don't see the point in reworking the unit when you can revert the one buff it got and probably have a really good balance

#

or just tweak it a little more to have thugs and stouts/janus be a tiny bit better against rockets

tidal grotto
#

which atm makes this questionably viable

strange beacon
#

the one buff in question was 10% burst dmg ?

storm condor
#

U made it arc but did u give it aoe to compensate

#

This looks vry goofy

#

Arcing rockets with no tracking and no aoe

#

Since it's arcing it can only hit the target it was aiming for, unlike current rockos which hit everything in the general line it shoots

distant elk
#

having them be more impactful if they do hit their target is something I can get behind. they are very dodgeable, so having it be more rewarding to hit is good i think

swift olive
#

the 10% is big deal coz it's a unit you do forward and backwards constantly, the 5% reload time increase isn't really important when the unit already slower from retargeting correctly

royal wing
#

I think it was a mistake and why is proliferated for so long was due to technical questions that went unanswered for months

#

Rocket bots were already good vs veh before that buff
No need to keep that buff around really
Sometimes itā€™s best to revert changes then make more changes

strange beacon
#

was there a technical issue that made them worse or plp just got better?
i mean reason for the buff

strange beacon
swift olive
#

Yeah, would be nice to try and see at least, it's not a big revert, idk why Zecrus is looking for other nerf instead

twilit spindle
twilit spindle
royal wing
#

That is also true for the lasher

twilit spindle
#

Well yes but actual viability w/o tracking is still up for debate at least among the players I asked

verbal ridge
#

Revert Rockos now that whistlers are harmless

unique stone
verbal ridge
#

Their damage was increased by 10% to be more viable against Janus whistler. Their reload time was reduced a little. This makes no sense anymore

swift olive
#

We talked to Zecrus about it already but he doesn't seem to want to revert it

#

and he's not on this thread also šŸ˜¦

strange beacon
#

why tho?

tidal grotto
#

he usually has reasons for things, it won't be on a whim

#

but I don't know the specifics in this case

exotic pawn
#

We need speed buff to thugs like +3 and +5 to maces

#

So they can actually catch rockos

tardy pike
#

Thugs and maces getting outclassed by nearly every unit now is mega rip. Maces were never good not once in this game since I started

#

Literally just build them to tank shots for everything else now

swift olive
#

only seem to be good when there is a hill involved apparently in 8v8

strange beacon
#

yeah maces being faster than thugs makes sense for being a bit crappier

#

although centurion buff when

exotic pawn
#

Maces Can have gauss mode instead of plasma

#

So they hit more often and made up for being shittier

tidal grotto
#

arm botlab has 2 options core don't though, so the mace being less potent than thug is reasonable tradeoff

#

what wasn't was the huge aiming issue they had a while ago, which I fixed, and not everyone has noticed apparently

#

and still think maces always perform vastly worse, rather than a bit worse

#

in ideal world though mace and thug should be more distinctive, rather than 'thug but worse'

#

either counterparts should be basically identical, or clearly different in an intuitive way

tardy pike
#

Almost as if it has no options

tidal grotto
#

centurion need a buff yes, tick one of the best units in the game

tardy pike
#

Not really talking about ticks and ticks are not an option vs thug rocket llt spam

thick cypress
# tidal grotto couple of random examples

Ive often thought this would be a better mechanic for the medium rocket bot for legion ( which i also personally think its to far a deviant for the underlying game balance principles. ) but that aside, the medium rocket could fire in an arc and in a teeny way split and finish like small catapult vibe. Sorta like a bot artillery unit. Then u can get rid of the OP napalm death bot and move it up a tier or repurpose it. But maybe im getting carried away. Lol Still.. honestly i think the medium rocket bot shouldnt exactly exist. Legion should get its own version of what the other two factions have. Not a rocket bot that outranges everything, destroys everyting and can hide behind t1 arty that clears whole lands and has indestructible robo lassie to do the stomp on everyting else.

final ibex
woeful snow
#

A factor that can help i think is a behavior (manual) up / down vote system. So a player with high os but with 0 teamplay / com can be penalised manually by players and see his behavior score drop, that can then make an "os penality" in term of matchmaking. Same can go for players contesting spawn even in turn based spawn pick, or ppl that deliberatly screw the team by refusing a pos role. (note that it's true for high os mainly, as low rank don't necessarily know what pos they're playing lol)

unique stone
marble wren
#

I agree. I don't think OS should be affected by anything other than win loss, uncertainty, and prediction. Team size weight I don't really care about tbh, but less impact on game therefore less weight makes sense, so it's fine.

tawny linden
#

Also agreed, a down vote system just sounds like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't mind seeing the commendation system return but I don't think anything good will come from some form of social score that can be negatively impacted by other players.

storm condor
#

Vote system would be ok if game had matchmaking, but most ppl play in their specific lobbies with the same people so it would literally mean nothing.

#

Even if the game had matchmaking, voting shouldn't affect match balancing ratings. It could affect other social metrics

strange beacon
#

na then you will just get toxic voting cliques
imagine you tank some metirc cause you went into another crowd to play and they don't like u
or you play against a toxic clan

storm condor
#

But game doesn't have any rating for parties or clans so no use

heady valve
#

Ban high os players ez

storm condor
#

Forreal

#

Vote system also implies that most players know what's good play or bad play which isn't true.

marble wren
#

Community is small enough at this stage that everyone kinda knows who the dickheads and the nice people are.

#

Like that wombat guy. HUGE dickhead, for sure.

storm condor
#

I'm the dickehead yep

spice temple
#

nutty was being sarcastic. nutty is a very friendly guy.

#

you dont get to be sarcastic and a martyr because you are part of the problem

storm condor
#

i like how people who actively block and kick people from joining this glitters OS farm lobby are commenting on my behaviour.

spice temple
#

i have 0 people on my ban list

#

got any more unsubstantiated accusations?

storm condor
#

weakest drama stirrer alive

spice temple
#

do you condemn your previous comments telling people to kill themselves? cause it doesn't seem like you're denying it

storm condor
#

idc telling you abt anything lmao

spice temple
#

šŸ‘

#

i'll take that as a no

storm condor
#

you do you bro

spice temple
storm condor
#

who did i bully

spice temple
#

do you not think telling people to kill themselves is a form of bullying?

storm condor
#

what is this drama about lmao?

strange beacon
#

DURAMA

spice temple
#

its about your disingenuous comments regarding a suggestion for a kind of reputation system. i'm not interested in you swaying other people away from a system that would hold you accountable

#

even if i dont explicly support it, necessarily

storm condor
#

omg what a good day lemme go and find people to tell them to throw themselves off a cliff

spice temple
#

i mena, people can just seach the moderation bot logs

hexed basin
spice temple
#

its not like you dont have a history of this behavior thats verifyable

storm condor
spice temple
#

#šŸ›”ļøļ½œmoderation-bot message
#šŸ›”ļøļ½œmoderation-bot message
#šŸ›”ļøļ½œmoderation-bot message

#

that was just the fastest search i can do. i dont need to go further scouring replays for this behavior. or twitch chat logs

hexed basin
#

Looks like the holding accountable part is accounted for

storm condor
#

peak drama addict trying to communicate 1 single thought (cannot)

marble wren
#

Isn't Choice still suspended?

hexed basin
storm condor
marble wren
#

So why is it relevant that choice, specifically, is held accountable via an ingame social awards system?

hexed basin
#

To say something productive instead of poking fun at poor Jagomu, any system that allows the community to downvote players will get misused, abused, and will only result in witch hunts

#

Doubly so if it has real consequences

storm condor
#

wym poking fun

hexed basin
#

I know I'm not funny, you don't have to say it PandaCry

spice temple
#

Idk how he isnā€™t banned from this discord

storm condor
#

who asked me to leave

#

why would i be banned from discord anyways

spice temple
storm condor
#

i dont think anyone is talking to you except me

#

well i see im the part of having this drama continue, i cba this drama isnt even exciting anymore

spice temple
#

It also ends with an apology

#

Any kind of openness to self improvement or personal accountability

storm condor
#

if i have an apology or anything i wouldnt ever say it to you, you arent the victim of anything so i cannot be arsed

hexed basin
spice temple
#

Nope the apology doesnā€™t go to me it goes those youā€™ve wronged

#

You have opportunity to do so in the moment

storm condor
#

ok sir

spice temple
# hexed basin šŸŖž

Do you have a specific grievance or are you just saying weā€™re all imperfect? Cause the latter Iā€™ll admit to and if there is anyone I have unintentionally wronged Iā€™m happy to have th at conversation and set it right

hexed basin
storm condor
#

really sad that this is the convo and the whole down vote system takes 10seconds of scrolling

hexed basin
spice temple
#

Intolerance of the intolerant is not intolerance

storm condor
#

someone needs to purge above 50 messages or smth

spice temple
#

Moderators are free to do so if they believe this is off topic

storm condor
#

i mean its just waste of volunteer time then bcz this is very clear

#

šŸ‘ re-railed maybe

swift olive
worn briar
#

Jagumo is right though. It's easy to underestimate the negative impact immature characters that are projecting their anger ontu others are having on a game or community. I've also observed this behaviour for example with the player called "choice".

You want to improve the state of high-OS lobbies and the overall game? The game needs to be more inviting to more players to create a much bigger player base. This has of course a lot to do with game features but also with creating an inviting community by excluding players that are unable to control their emotions (in many cases this is simply a question of age restrictions - but sometimes it's just an inability to learn this particular skill).

gilded folio
#

Successfully baited into having an argument about the game with a banned player gg

grizzled bison
#

Perfi's absence is felt in this thread.

royal mirage
#

as a sidenote choice should gain forums ts

verbal ridge
#

This thread is about the high ranking lobby. Keep it at that

spice temple
#

Devils avocado: Allowing toxic community members to continue to play surely effects the quality of the high os lobby

tawdry turret
#

I mean just mute them or spawn far away from them if they piss you off, lobby just needs bodies more than it needs people to be polite

unique stone
#

Which is very short sighted thinking

#

And then we have to play with the same attention-seeking trolls every day.

spice temple
storm condor
#

people have 0 real ideas so theyre just talking abt beef/moderation

tardy pike
#

Kekw. Moderating people is actually short sighted. If this game ever grew to a significant population, moderation couldnā€™t exist in its current form. All these petty things they ban people forā€¦. lol But to be fair moderation has evolved a lot in the past year and Iā€™m happy to say that itā€™s tolerable because they seem to take a lot of my proposals to heart. Probably a lot of people asked for the same things. I understand that banning extremely bad actors from a budding project is important. But the reasons some people are talking about here are just based on their own personal grievances and not grounded in any sort of logical consistency. In fact some of these people are just as toxic, if not more than the ā€œattention-seeking trollsā€. On a statistical note, moderating a single high OS player is already a material percentage of the high OS player base. Do it a few times and your lobby doesnā€™t survive more than a few hours a day. Some days when there are 2 people above 30 OS that are moderated the lobby doesnā€™t even get off the ground.

spice temple
#

judging from the number of content creators that were eager to try the game last summer and most if not all have not returned.

tardy pike
spice temple
#

maybe the game just sucks

tardy pike
#

I mean, if it was that good, you would have more players. At the end of the day the barrier to actually develop a passion and move into a competitive level is extremely high. Battle Aces is a great example of how ease of getting into competitiveness attracts talent. I can literally score ā€œtop aceā€ in that game with basic classical RTS mechanics and micro. This game required me to learn about 120 different unit types and buildings. Thatā€™s kind of insane compared to the 8 available units you can use in Battle Aces. So if you want to improve state of high OS lobby, make it easier to get there.

storm condor
#

Game needs insteresting guides and more videos teaching about strats/thought process

tardy pike
#

It took me an entire year playing this just to get 50 OS. Compare that to being a semi professional gamer in Sc2 within 2 months. World Cyber Games contender for Warcraft 3 (top 2 in Canada) etc. I even ranked 1 in Age of Empires 4 for 3v3 after 6 months of playing. But this game took forever to grind and ā€œgit gudā€ and still today there are a million interactions I havenā€™t experienced and itā€™s only that curiosity that drives me to play. For the average RTS player having their natural skill expression not manifest itself for months and months makes this game poorly designed. Not enough guidance or too many units and too convoluted.

strange beacon
#

well it got popular and youtube content

#

Battle aces is very accessible yeh

#

BAR is like traditional rts, takes a long time to figure out wtf is going on, and even longer to learn what each positions are capable of at X timing and how not to die

storm condor
#

alot of us who came during the winter wave were lucky because we learnt from his youtube guides and then learnt from players like dolfy who were streaming.

#

Right now twitch has good content but youtube guides r needed

#

Battle Aces is like clash royale of RTS

strange beacon
#

mm

#

guides really helps, and probably like ranks that plp want to hit

#

two types of players, players that self-learn, and those that copy and refine

grizzled bison
#

Making good YouTube content for guides is really difficult and time consuming

#

There's so much shit you have to address even in basic explanations

strange beacon
#

the important mechanics are just not visible, you have to break them down step by step like Day9 broodwar tutorials xD

#

like, here's X sheldons, lets see how they do against medium tanks. Now with kiting! Now with medium tanks to buffer!

storm condor
#

flank dmg xdd

#

i think guides r only needed for t1 gameplay and the initial t2 transition, after that player has enough room to build on by himself

strange beacon
#

for more advanced strategy, there's so many game states. strategies for when you are behind (your frontline is losing), even, and ahead

#

yeah up to the first t2 fighting and showing how that typically looks

grizzled bison
#

I think it's more applicable for something like ATG or Isthmus where there's no variation. I started a detailed guide for T1 and spent 18 minutes on the first minute or so of gameplay. 2 Mex, 3 Mex, 4 Mex and energy combination openers. Then situations where you could start forward 2 Mex or back 3/4 Mex like Bismuth. 1-2 Mex reclaim buildsnfo some lanes, faction choice as part of Energy production and unit variety. Then you have to talk labs themselves. When to bot or vehicle and why. You can start cutting stuff but then you're often setting them up for failure later on.

#

I might try again, but it's real hard to know what to exclude

tawdry turret
#

Nothing wrong with guides for new players being very basic

strange beacon
#

i think there needs to be decently level streamed games where the player explains what they are doing

#

hardcore players who are picking up this new game prolly will find that interesting and informative

strange beacon
#

something topical per video like "Bots or Vehicles, which to use?"

grizzled bison
#

But people didn't seem that interested. I might have given too much detail, dunno

strange beacon
#

skinner started streaming straits lately

#

seems like there's audience for plp who enjoy watching stuff unfold but don't want the stress of playing

grizzled bison
#

Yeah. I've also considered just casting some high level 8v8 games, but that shit is hard

strange beacon
#

i think there just isn't as much talk about improving in bar. strategies are just talked about in-group, and plp just figure out shit by themselves or copying others

grizzled bison
#

But that would probably help bring more people in

strange beacon
#

one thing is: every game needs a narrative / clickbait xD

still seal
#

Say what you want about Drongo, but that guy made quality content explaining what he did and why along the way. I think we need content in this style. Maybe without the ā€œIā€™m building afus while my teammates are dyingā€attitude.

This is a very hard game to get into on a competitive level.

strange beacon
#

he got plp excited about the game and was easy to listen to

still seal
#

Regarding the other recent topic, I just want to say that the reason I avoid the sweat lobby is how awful some of you guys act towards each other. You guys need us mid level players too fill 8v8, we are not as skilled as you are. Iā€™m 30-35 OS and can barely manage to read chat/pings while playing. Last thing I need is too worry about a teammate tilting or being flamed on a twitch stream or in the chat.

Biggest problem of that lobby is the culture and the fact that you guys allow a few people to act like toddlers. It is truly a shame that if you want to test your skill against the best players you have to have super thick skin because some grown men canā€™t be decent to other people.

exotic pawn
#

I an working on a detailed unit tierlist for 8 v 8, kind to hear thoughts of other high os players so we curate a really solid intro to every unit , itā€™s use case and weakness applied mainly to 8 v 8

tardy pike
# still seal Say what you want about Drongo, but that guy made quality content explaining wha...

Drongo severely shifted the meta of the ā€œop lobbyā€ because he taught people how to eco half decent. It was a real threshold of skill before, where many 30ish OS players couldnā€™t balance their eco properly to make even one AFUS without severely hindering their team. Now the majority of the lobby knows how to scale and has really elevated the games skill level. Iā€™ve even seen games where single OS players have carried with 8 AFUS and probably only reason they are that low in OS is because they havenā€™t figured out when to come online yet. But the fact that they got to 8 AFUS in a very respectable time use to be a very rare skill.

strange beacon
#

honestly I think plp have gotten better at eco'ing in straits too, even random 20 os plp can make double 4x layout of afus. i guess it's not that hard

regal charm
#

We should encourage toxicity actually. Decent ppl wont do it anyway and angsty edgelords wont do whats encouraged as a general rule

heady valve
#

"decent people" will be toxic at one point or another. It's common to get mad once in a while when you're very invested

#

That said I respect a lot of people who show restraint

#

It's not good to be all in on authoritarian black or white thinking, neither to allow people who like to be edgy for edginess sake

storm condor
#

lobby very alive today

image.png
grizzled bison
heady valve
#

You're Zaddy the Shepherd of Lobsters. They behave when you're around.

heady valve
still seal
#

Yes I didnā€™t mean to generalise. Most of you guys are great. Some of you are absolute legends for how you help this game evolve.

This community is small and you top level players all ā€œknowā€ each other well enough to be able to tell someone that is stepping out of line to chill.

Itā€™s difficult to explain this without generalising or naming names and my view might be coloured by a few certain players that has slummed in lower level lobbies.

But for me these experiences has been enough to defer me from that lobby.

There is also the issue of people reacting differently to different things. What some might perceive as ā€œtoxicā€ others might find helpful.

hexed basin
pastel sand
#

Considering the success of CoD and LoL, I think we may be overestimating the negative effects of toxicity. And BAR is like preschool or candyland compared to those game communities.

#

Overall toxicity I see in BAR is relatively very mild.

marble wren
#

While I generally don't think there's a huge systemic problem in our community, and I feel that we do a pretty excellent job of yeeting out anyone who behaves in an unwelcome manner in our lobbies, I don't know that I would agree that "it's not a problem with big titles, so it can't be a problem with us" is much of an argument.

swift olive
#

the higher os lobby you play on the less toxic it is šŸ™‚

strange beacon
#

usually there are less toxic people at the very highest lv (applies to all rts) but that doesn't mean the lobby is rarely toxic

regal charm
#

Its the opposite

grizzled bison
strange beacon
#

all welcome is just a shti experience cause skil diff makes plp mad on both sides

regal charm
#

People in teamgames that invested thousand hours just to see their team crumble because of one or two persons will go balistic sooner

#

Worst is big skill difference yes

#

Solution is steam release

marble wren
tawny linden
#

Least toxic lobbies are high OS Smol Team/1v1 imo. Usually a bit of post game reflection/post mortem but not usually too much rage.

heady valve
#

1v1 is 0 toxic. But that would change with mmaking I guess

thin tusk
#

It doesn't matter if someone is toxic in 1v1, even with matchmaking, cause you can just mute them and let your keyboard/result do the talking

#

I might even call 1v1 toxicity a bonus, cause there's a little bit of pleasure in seeing your opponent rage šŸ‘¹

#

But honestly, some of the context with all BAR toxicity discussions has to be in the context of the toxicity levels of generally being online and compared to other competitive online team games,

#

And part of that makes all these discussions a little funny because BAR is tame and civilised in comparison

swift olive
#

i think far more people enjoy little trash talk than a safe environment
it's a big part of why the game isn't boring af

tawny linden
#

A little trash talk is fun for sure especially if it's clever and related to actual gameplay, even more fun if it's directed at opponents/from opponents after a big play/misplay.

It does go too far fairly often imo with the telling people on the same team who are supposed to be working together to off themselves, that they're mentally damaged "regards" because they did/didn't do something, etc.

I'm an adult who grew up with the internet and early Xbox live so I know it could be so much worse but it does get grating when I see folks habitually rage against randoms for whatever reason. It makes me view them as a literal child throwing a tantrum and is usually my cue to just find a different lobby or take a break because I can't be arsed to deal with that on my team.

worn briar
#

Obviously I can't tell how the average player feels about this, but I also invested a fair 6 month into this game, got to level ~35 and really like the complex nature of it BUT the reason I left is the toxicity especially in high-level lobbies from few players.

And I think in BAR it's very different from games like League of Legends or AoE 4 because there you queue for a match with automated matchmaking and if there is toxic/toddler behaviour in the match you just rarely see those guys again and queue again.
In BAR you end up in the same lobby after the game then fighting about who to kick and who sucks etc. So I wouldn't compare this to big player base titles with automated matchmaking.

pastel sand
#

Compared to a smaller base title I grew up with, Stronghold Crusader, which has no matchmaking, BAR is still candyland, lol. People remembered who the shitters were and avoided them, else segregated themselves into clans and had clan wars and such.

#

Really compared to pretty much any gaming community of the early 2000s, BAR is very tame, lol

sweet bluff
storm condor
#

send request i accept

sweet bluff
#

If you want this game to be even less "toxic" and tame you will alienate a lot of players for sure. People who have very thin skin will still cry about any slight criticism and leave the game anyway.

In team multiplayer games some kind of spicyness will always be present unless you lobotomise every player.
Try to win -> lose because team bad -> get annoyed

#

Its only natural that people experience frustration when they try and dont succeed, of course going wayy too far is also a thing and that shouldnt be allowed either.

unique stone
#

Right now you need a really, really thick skin to play 20+ games in high level rotato

#

For the high level players saying it's all just "trash talk", they need to learn the definition of that term.

Harassing someone game in, game out, lying about their performance infront of 14 other players, not giving out t2 con after being paid few games in a row, that's not "trash talk". That's being an a**. And certain folk get away with it until that individual stops playing in op lobby.

#

Sometimes I have a feeling that individuals like that play this game only because it's one of the few games where they can get away with such abusive behavior.

unique stone
sweet bluff
# unique stone Well, it is allowed right now.

I agree that some behaviours are way out of line and need to be corrected. I am mostly talking about ppl who cry when they get "?" pinged after a bad play and and call everyone toxic for that.

storm condor
#

i mean almost everyone cries about "x player trolled" "team too bad", even you lol

#

but its barely toxic anyways

#

u can give actual advice and get called toxic because you are communicating using text, there is no tone so you cannot tell its passive aggressive or genuine

regal charm
#

Why is this thread so whiny, plz moderate

#

On a serious note, i think comparing to older games is moot point today, the climate is very changed (pun intended) in regards to thick skin but also trashtalk

#

Trashtalk is way more hate centered, not like banter of the old internet. Thick skin is more of a membrane now. Big difference in multiplayer ecosystem

#

Fact is game has to be welcoming to players even if personally i believe people are just 78% more pussies.

strange beacon
#

bitching and whining is fine but harrassing/flaming plp persistently is where it crosses the line imo

regal charm
#

Yes but consider this: world is getting fucked and ppl are not the same

strange beacon
#

there's plp who can't take criticism and who will call everything toxic, but at the same time there is actual toxic people sometimes

regal charm
#

This will get worse not lessened

strange beacon
#

i mean bar is a game people play to enjoy, a lot of people would prefer not to getting bullied/demeaned wile playing it

regal charm
#

Does this mean stricter moderation?

strange beacon
#

bar's moderation is already pretty active, i don't really have a wish execpt I will echo the sentinement that plp tolerate toxic plp cause the high os population is too small

regal charm
#

I agree a lot thats why i said steam release. We just need player influx

#

Asshats will always be there, but with a game so hard it is to expect most of those will move on. However big influx will mean some will stay and OS difference will be smaller

#

Which means more quality games in each OS segment

#

Which means less frustration

#

Im only rank 25 and i hate to be highest rank in lobbies. I never rage but thats just specific i guess, i do understand tho how it feels to get blown because your neighbors made 3 labs in 3 min

#

Same goes for 40os i believe

#

One of the worst triggers is looking at teammates at min3-5 and knowing well in advance its a loss. This is basically low playerbase issue bevause games are long and investment is big

thick cypress
#

High OS lobbies get grumpy not because people there are toxic or shitty. But because the player base is tight so its like youre always playing with the same people. Relationships develop between people. That familiarity can become personalised in a way that outside players dont get. Honestly, I say it as a joke but high OS lobbies have a life cycle. The new lobby always ends up with everyone pissed off at each other šŸ˜‚ . Then the lobby splits and you guys join a few lower skilled lobbies. You crush it. Its fun. But then more High OS players join. Cos now everyones friends again. Then all us mere mortals who suck and cant go full Ghost in the Shell on the keyboard get raged on cos obviously its frustrating. Then theres a terminal velocity of High OS players. A boss is voted in. The min rating is changed and all the high OS players are happy again. Except the thing is....its the same bunch of loveable assholes you were fighting with 2 hours ago. Things are fun but then the blue guy does that thing you dont like. Everyones a troll and then well... The thing is, the toxicity is a product of exposure not enviroment.

#

What we should do is just get all players over the OS of 40 to only play simple Ai for month. Then everyone will be super happy to see eachother . XD

waxen birch
#

I always wonder why moderation is such a hot topic when players control their own lobbies, and have the means to get rid of troublemakers. If there is a troll, kickban them. If someone's behavior in a lobby is outside what that lobby is comfortable with, toss 'em out. There is no need to have a universal norm, or chat filters, or even to involve BAR mods at the lobby level. Just let the players handle things at the lowest possible level.

unique stone
waxen birch
#

and if the majority of players in that lobby feel that way, they should be allowed to

unique stone
#

But what if ppl are stupid?

waxen birch
storm condor
thick cypress
#

Thats the money shot right there

#

Its our relationship with expectations that create a conflict or harmony in the state we exist in. You essentially have 4 different quadrants of expectation relationship. Upholders...they can manage both external and internal expectations equally. Set a goal. Reach it. Say youll do something for some one. Do it.
Questioners: they need a good reason why before they will reach that expectation be it external or internal. Im a questioner. I like to ask why . I have a tendency to want to satisfy and internal expectation or need first before Ill do something.

Obligors'. They predominantly choose to meet external expectations at the cost of meeting their own internal expectations. People please or do seomthing for someone at the expense of ur own happiness. People who suffer from ADHD, myself being one of them, achieve more when we have extenal accountability and deadlines.

Rebels: They equally respond with a push response to both internal and external expectations . "you cant make me do it. And neither can i"

These are traits... but we get lost very quickly when leveraging our own happiness on strange expectations.

I like to stand in a que or sit in traffic. Its a great time to just take a moment . You cant do anything to change it. Seeing people get worked up about things like online games or lobby's or ques or bad traffic is an exhuasting excerise that will only ever benefit you if you stop giving a shit about it.

#

Footnote: These are essentially a frame work of personality traits. And you are never just one obviously. We are all a complex blend. Its a helpful way to understand and hack your bain. If u know how to manage its own expectations with world around it. Youll find yourself a lot less stressed out. Ref:
https://gretchenrubin.com/books/the-four-tendencies/
Do the quiz and read the cool book for more info

heady valve
#

I'm selling a bridge

sharp mason
#

Waa

regal charm
#

Wa

dire tartan
#

This has been an interesting conversation on the nature of toxicity, and its not a bad discussion to have -- however, I feel like this thread may have drifted a little off-topic, especially considering its place in #1047081727291559986.

So, to bring things back around to the original topic: are there specific / actionable changes that might reduce painpoints or improve the overall experience while playing in high-OS lobbies? There are a number of suggestions that Perfi listed out in this thread's pinned comments, but perhaps there is more that has been suggested since then?

verbal ridge
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I feel like only people playing in the high is lobby should comment here. Everything else is just speculation

royal mirage
#

though by high ts lobby you mean rotato, or rotato+lobster?

verbal ridge
#

The high os lobbies this thread is referring to

dire tartan
#

The original post in this thread didn't specify, so I'd interpret it as any high OS (so pretty much Rotato + Lobster + Glitters, in practical terms)

exotic pawn
#

I will separate Rotato from strait/ glitters

As the rotato one is the real op lobby we call

grizzled bison
storm condor
sharp mason
#

Ya probably only applies to rotato, as op strait lobby is a bastion of peace and tranquility

swift olive
#

there is only 2 op lobbies tbh

Rotato EU timezone and NA timezone

strange beacon
#

strait lobster lobby is usually not toxic to each other. if anything they can be unfriendly to lower rank players

#

every once and a while there are plp who just go there to troll and bitch at teammates

storm condor
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ive played enough 8v8 all welcome lobbies to say from experience that noob lobbies are often 10x more flame. But no one cares bcz their ego doesnt get hurt when a 5os player flames them i guess

royal mirage
#

though since you're a single lobby why wont you self-moderate?

regal charm
#

Strait lobster can hardly be toxic since its such a cointoss lol. Everybody doing everything possible or inpossible

tawny linden
# storm condor ive played enough 8v8 all welcome lobbies to say from experience that noob lobbi...

This is true, I don't really think that the toxicity is any worse in OP rotato vs any other 8v8 lobby (one reason among others that I've been mostly playing higher min small teams vs 8v8s since the OS split) It's just the lobby that is seen by more eyes usually so it gets noticed more often. I'll try to respect DN though and not discuss this any more here since it isn't really an issue with an actionable solution and not directly related to only high OS lobbies.

I do want to say that I appreciate that this thread already did some good so far, the uncertainty reset/higher uncertainty floor/smol team split were all good things imo that were at least influenced by discussion here.

exotic pawn
#

Strait lobster lobby have at most 1 +50 os player , while rotato can have many at the same time

royal mirage
#

Though aren't the lobbies creating their own os bubbles?

exotic pawn
#

Not really , rotato prepares you for most maps , strait os is more map dependant , same as glitters

strange beacon
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i agree rotato has the strongest players on the top end, but climbing past 40 on straits is insane. maybe small population means less room for plp to climb os
if you do same strat every game plp will come from other lanes and gang/punish u. you are more vunerable to multi-lane harrass or you getting killed because other lane failed in 8 min

#

the top players who don't abuse a position/seal club/communism all the time all have OP habits
Whole-map awareness of the gamestate (including where the strong/weak players are which affects your decisions), know how to greed to the limit intelligently, know the good units to push and deal with problems

storm condor
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I mean we had a 50os strait player show up in rotato and die 1v1 to 36os player but I think that's besides the point of the thread.

strange beacon
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yes cause rocko bot laning isn't the majority of straits gameplay

storm condor
#

I think shud use thread to complain about mechanics/balancing etc that effect high OS lobby

storm condor
royal mirage
storm condor
#

Ye ig u can play sea

strange beacon
#

surprise they are different skillsets

storm condor
#

Sea is just underdeveloped area of the game anyways

strange beacon
#

it's not just the sea, it's how to defend sea from land, which t2 labs can intervene in sea and how, amphib attacks, bombing over sea, bombing ships

royal mirage
storm condor
#

Every rts sea gameplay is 1 dimension shitfest and it's unbalancable bcz of movement and cost of boats

steep quiver
strange beacon
#

sea vs sea gameplay has some depth plp just don't play it
sea vs land t1 is imba. you can balance maps around it but it will take some work and isn't ideal

royal mirage
#

It's usually a boring double lane sea

storm condor
#

Bcz no one wants to play sea except shoty in rotato lol

strange beacon
#

double lane sea is fine but the better side will crush in like 10 minutes

storm condor
#

How is sea even nice to play u just coop and only counterplay is coop

strange beacon
#

blame the game don't blame sea lol
on big maps air coop is op af

storm condor
#

Sea is the game

strange beacon
#

shiva coop, tzar coop, air coop, sea coop

storm condor
#

Sea is underdeveloped as it always is in rts

strange beacon
#

it's a vision/scouting game, and ships are like medium tanks. frigates zone destroyers zone subs

storm condor
fossil sigil
#

I think that unfortunately sea is always going to be problematic with the current technical limitations of the maps, and how most map makers choose to incorporate sea game play.

storm condor
#

Sea coop cannot fail it's 0 risk against non coop

royal mirage
#

All coming from a person that's not playing sea tho

exotic pawn
strange beacon
#

the issue is coop

storm condor
strange beacon
#

air coop is harder because t1 bombers require good micro, and you delay team's t2

storm condor
#

I've played glitter strait rotato

strange beacon
#

but t2 air coop is really strong

storm condor
#

1v1s 4v4s 5v5s

strange beacon
#

no one is prepared to defend their 1 afus from 8 strat bombers

royal mirage
fossil sigil
#

You can address the sea play issue balance vs land by scaling the current units to be more in line HP/DPS/Range/Cost wise to vehicles but then the current maps become problematic

strange beacon
#

I agree sea coop is imblanaced, sea is just where coop cancer becomes most evident

storm condor
#

Sea gameplay in strait is mex disparity, geo disparity, getting transport etc

royal mirage
strange beacon
#

plp say counter to nuke bomber is fighters? well what if the 2nd person goes nuke bomber instead of t2 units

fossil sigil
#

I dont think you can really even begin to address the bigger issues without a redefined sea gameplay overall

#

The interation between land and sea is pretty skewed right now

strange beacon
storm condor
strange beacon
#

the thing is naval aa is prefectly good against gunships

#

how can naval aa be balanced when it doesn't even protect your base against this 290 speed unit that 1 shots destroyers and 1k aa ships
you'd have to make it so good that all the non-imba AtG air is useless

storm condor
#

Liche is good vs high metal unit, fusion, t2 lab, rattlesnake etc. Naval armies happen to be just a blob of 10k metal that vanish from 1 bomb

strange beacon
#

if you go cor bots what are your mobile options against liche? just 20 t1 aa bots i guess?

#

so you bring 20 aa bots with your army and then 1 chain saw at home
congrats you spent 2.5k metal to defend just yourself against a liche bomber

dire tartan
#

Questions -- I'm garbage at sea myself, so I don't know what draws the pro Sea players to it.

Is the current state of Sea balance significantly different between low/high OS games? Is it more enjoyable/tedious between low/high OS games, and if so then what specifically makes it that way? Any areas where skill expression could be placed more in alignment with what is "fun"?

strange beacon
#

plp say there's no come back on seas... sea is about being careful to not lead up to that point. still there's com bom and defending their counter push. If you are losing you can still run subs and ships everywhere to stall your opponent. remember ships cannot just run into the other lanes and immediately end it

storm condor
strange beacon
#

the rotato narrow maps for sea are okay but you can only play a narrow channel sea so many times

storm condor
#

Be good enough that 2.5k metal deficit doesn't matter

#

Land has 2000 ways to outplay everything

strange beacon
#

if you have air control liche is so nuts haha, just nuke bomb amexes huge value

storm condor
#

Lol

#

U know people have like 16 mexes on alot of map in rotato

strange beacon
#

yeah for sure
i mean the nuke doesn't cost anything to fire, if their big base is defended you gotta get value where you can

unique stone
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And salamanders are a huge problem rn

storm condor
#

Sea problem is metal cost

#

Too high metal to E ratio that if u lose anything it will just snowball

dire tartan
#

So then what changes could be considered to make it less stale/snowbally? Not suggesting that its viable or would ever be accepted, but "ships don't leave wrecks" would be one example of how to make it less winner-take-all.

strange beacon
#

u asking people who barely touch sea how to balance sea for everyone

storm condor
strange beacon
#

you use your scout, that's if everything else is defended

#

it's a not a skuttle it doesn't suicide

storm condor
#

Blxssom used to play strait he was spamming liche everygame, now he plays rotato alot I don't see him making liche often

#

And he's good air player

strange beacon
#

yes cause he's the air player. liche is better with techer making it

dire tartan
#

Whether its worth fixing any of the reasons that come up, is a completely separate question

strange beacon
#

i think with shiva push you can just creep tracer's forward

storm condor
distant elk
strange beacon
#

by that logic medium tank maps should never be won because it's just whoever is better at retreating

dire tartan
#

Ahh, because the bigger guns are further back on the model, right

storm condor
#

That too

strange beacon
#

narrow sea maps between two strong sea players shoudl stall out. and not end easily. cause once one side is behind they will switch into retreat/kite mode

storm condor
strange beacon
distant elk
#

sea at a high level is very much about playing with ranges, taking slow steady good trades, and not overextending until you know you have an advantage. if you don't enjoy that, then you won't enjoy sea

such is life

storm condor
#

Dgun and arm jammer is defensive tool?

strange beacon
#

yes, you aren't gonna walk a jammer with your push?

storm condor
#

It's utility u can use it anyway I can show example if u can be arsed to hear

strange beacon
#

dgun+jammer is used defensively, makes it (much) harder to attack

storm condor
#

I use jammer and dgun offensively

#

#1186850950770610207 message

strange beacon
#

the range on sneaky pete is too much. 500 lol

unique stone
strange beacon
#

at least it isn't a claw fest
rattlesnake claw fest 10 nanos

unique stone
#

But I don't see how that can change

storm condor
#

Claw is very easy to counter

#

Claw rattlesnake pulsar pitbull lolcannon easily counterable with insignificant metal investment

#

I can link u a replay to show how to

#

It's vs high OS player who was winning most of the game

strange beacon
#

sure

storm condor
#

And he mainly taught me how to do it

distant elk
storm condor
storm condor
#

This strait vs rotato divide will never end and I cba to argue with players who spam 1 map and have 1000 balance changes to suit to their 1 map.

royal mirage
#

rotato maps are all the same though eh