Nerf t1 transport speed carrying commander

[tidal pine]

I think u click land

(Idk)

[gritty scaffold]

well maybe easis nerf for the so early transports could be just increased bp requirement

[paper flame]

lol the counter landing micro

[hidden night]

It's a very good idea, peoples will complain less than a metal/energy cost or HP nerf =)
And it will force to not build transport for all your teammates or you are too late on the air overall, giving at the same time a huge incentive to rush figs for the others guy =)

[hidden night]

Can we pin that message in this channel ?
=> #1221723248820224010 message

[agile storm]

I have yet to see anyone remove com from t1 trans ingame

[hidden night]

Current rotato lobby play with it :

And it was used too 2 days ago when i played in rotato too.

[trim fable]

Only moderators have pinning privileges

[meager helm]

one of these days I'm going to make $pin for teiserver to do it instead of me

[hidden night]

Thx for the pin ! =)

[trim fable]

Speaking of which <@&549291872192036874> can you pin this message so people know where to get the Tweak to remove comdrops if desired

[trim fable]

But then we would never get to talk about anything ever. 😦

[trim fable]

@paper flame can you please mention that there is a pin for the Tweakdef in the OP

[uncut panther]

Is it possible to fix the low flying transport exploit with tweaks, or is that a deeper issue? Something like require a certain z height before forward acceleration/velocity allowed?

[thorny hound]

I'm not sure, but I'd say that is a small thing from the larger problem of being able to transport the com in the first place.

[bitter isle]

Give commander a running mode instead that drains energy ;D

[trim fable]

Oh, you already got one nevermind lol

[paper flame]

just did it 👍

[gray meteor]

this is a good take

[echo geyser]

I like this as well but I think 3 transports would probably be a bit too much. As an alternative what if we made the t2 transports t1.5 instead and moved them to the t1 lab?

This would need to come with a significant abductor change of some sort to not be broken but would also give arm air a new tool out of the t1 air lab which might be a good thing.

It would open up a can of worms since now you would be able to transport all sorts of stuff without investing in a full on t2 air lab but I think it might be worth trying out before getting a third transport type in the game.

[thorny hound]

I think its reasonable to only be able to transport a com w/ t2 transport. It's that strong.

[paper flame]

you can make t1.5 transports a significant investment such that you can expect a ~2.5-3 fighter difference, and not everyone can get a trans, esp early.

makes it more reasonable for enemy air to snipe

let them carry ~2 small units. like a con+nano

[full kayak]

Side issue related to this: make core T2 trans great again

[echo geyser]

I'm not against making it more costly to trans com in t1 but I am personally against making it require a t2 lab as it removes alot of early game options.

And I just feel like 3 different air transports is too many transports but that might just be me.

[paper flame]

core trans would be cool if it was actually tanky. like 6k hp

[paper flame]

but like t2 figs do so much dmg compared to other aa

a 6k hp trans would be kinda obnoxious to defend with land aa

[echo geyser]

Frfr I want to hot drop 4 commandos

[full kayak]

Yeah, they are just worthless in comparison atm. Even vs opposed landings you want the emp from the arm trans to lockdown flak/porc. Giving the trans giga hp would be great

[paper flame]

even if you fully removed the emp beam, abductor is just a faster stealthy trans lol wtf
cheaper too

[full kayak]

Yeah, it's unreal how much better it is, rofl

[echo geyser]

Probably the most imbalanced pair of units with direct counterparts I think?

[paper flame]

mythic rare abductor vs bulk common skyhook

up there with salamander vs turtle

[full kayak]

Technically PA's are the turtle counterpart though, and they also suck atm

[paper flame]

shruiken vs banshee (on 8v8)

[full kayak]

Actually that's a good one

[paper flame]

poison arrow is like a frontline rush unit ig

[full kayak]

Even on puddle maps it doesn't feel great imo

[paper flame]

but like abductor is like actually strictly better than the skyhook

[echo geyser]

I tend to treat PA as mini tzar but one I can build out of amphib.

[gritty scaffold]

it doesnt need to be t2 trans t1 trans could also work but just would need to make its bp cost higher that you cant just rush it just after building air lab

[paper flame]

even early mid game cheap transport com is kinda boring

you can just boost air to make 1 extra con turret make up for the bp cost

the medium trans needs higher cost not just bp

[gritty scaffold]

yea its probs just me that i think how early the transports can be made as issue otherwise it would be fine in my opinion

[full kayak]

Do we have a tweakdef that changes the HP pool of the trans to take 2 hits, instead of 3?

[paper flame]

keep in mind this will prolly make transport die in 3 skater hits than 4. more skater cheese 😉

[trim fable]

We... Do not. Easy to do though

[shell jay]

Both nettle & thistle do 115 dmg
Stork (armatlas) has 265HP
Hercules (corvalk) has 280HP

So 80% hp of current for both should do it?

[full kayak]

What's T1 fighter damage?

[shell jay]

both faction figs do 125 per shot

[gritty scaffold]

with trans hp nerf it cannot be done that it gets 2 shot with land t1 aa and not fig will require damage changes to either figs or t1 aa turrets

[hidden night]

Again turned on after a clown transport game x')

[paper flame]

its not that com drop is op unstoppable more like, 100 metal converted trasport for making your commander 4x faster and flying leads to commander for everything

[hidden night]

1 min summary of the clown transport game :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiAqlc5qWo0

[paper flame]

the moment a com wreck happens literally everyone has to bring their com there asap
2.5 k or more metal to techer = gg

they have janus? just land on top of the janus and dgun

[hidden night]

The problem is :
Com shouldn't be the solution to everything, and they kind of are in earlygame because of transport.
They are often stealing the units jobs...

• kill leaks
• reclaim
• secure area with llt
• mobile anti air
• fast and safe expand
  ... etc

[paper flame]

yeah

hover/air con doesn't secure islands, com trans does

[full kayak]

I don't mind that though, I think good early com play is an interesting part of BAR, I just want it counterable

I'm almost circling back to Aidanaut's neutral AA building implimenation

[shell jay]

Didn't see that, but presume it would be having gaia AA randomly dotted around that players can kill easily as needed? or maybe just outside player spawns

[full kayak]

Gaia AA on spots like Koom island

[shell jay]

hmmm i feel that could mess up early scouting & bombing runs also tho 😦 mebby only target transports... then its getting weird again

[hidden night]

Transporting com is good, but not too early, because peoples don't have the time of the metal to build or deploy AA.
Com only outmatch T1 at the start, after that, T1 can count on the numbers to try to do something.
Maybe a specific cost change (lot of BP or E) is enough to nearly block it earlygame ?

[full kayak]

Yeah, that's why it wasn't implimented. I think the best middle group is the 2 hit trans

Because it means that one nettle blocks an area. The worst aspect atm is it's almost impossible to cover your base entirely

[hidden night]

Hp change is great because it's still possible to easily use transport later with a bit of air cover to tank shoots of nettle or just disable it.

[wanton yarrow]

Gaia AA is interesting and unique solution to this “problem”.

[full kayak]

2 shot trans is nice because it means the air player actually needs to scout

atm you can run into nettle range and be completely fine, just 100% blind. Forcing them to make a scout with it is at least better

[wanton yarrow]

At the end of the day the transport meta comes down to skill issue and somewhat reliant on skill of air player but I don’t see that as issue because at any point in time most games rely on skill issue of red or blue player

So if you put a 16 OS noob on air I don’t know what you expect or if you have 40 OS player who just decides to phone it in also not really in your control but also just part of the game

People just need to learn that in a game where you’re only 1/16th of the players your agency isn’t more than 8-9% of the outcome on average.

If you want more agency, play smaller team games or 1v1 for the “it’s all your fucking fault” experience

[timber ruin]

Good luck having 2 figs on each lane to counter com drop, since nettle can't do anything

[agile storm]

Its not a skill issue that should be as polarizing as it is- The speed is absurdly high so in that way doesnt make sense either- apparently some ppl decided try remove com from t1 trans but thats also just bad

[shell jay]

Reducing it to 2 hits does make it far scarier - with 3 hits you can take a hit, and still fly into another nettle to drop before the 3rd missile hits you if you micro it well and are paying attention.

Down to 2, and taking any damage puts you on a knife edge. Psychologically alone that's a huge dis-incentive to greedy drop and will force people to land and repair maybe.

[shell jay]

Tweakunits to reduce kill breakpoints for T1 Transports

Both t1 AA = 2 hits
Both t1 figs = 2 hits
Skater = 3 hits
Herring = 2 hits

ew0KCWFybWF0bGFzID0gew0KCQloZWFsdGggPSAyMTUsDQoJfSwNCgljb3J2YWxrID0gew0KCQloZWFsdGggPSAyMjUsDQoJfSwNCn0

Source

    armatlas = {
        health = 215,
    },
    corvalk = {
        health = 225,
    },
}```

[trim fable]

<@&549291872192036874> one more pin plz

[paper flame]

a com transer playing properly flying low should never die to 1 fig, always land. and they should be able to save the trans too a fair bit of the time
by flying directly into the fig and landing it + repair

2 hits is much different tho.

[gritty scaffold]

dont forget t1 figs also kill it with 2 shots now

[paper flame]

you die in 2 shots to herring too, basically unless you have perfect reaction when you get shot you know you dead xD
but herrings are slow that's your fault. skater is 3 shot

[trim fable]

use armordefs to filter damage types. Make the static AA damage default of desired value, adjust vtol damage separately for the fig or vice versa

not saying "do it, slave"... just that it's possible

[gritty scaffold]

as far as i know its possible but devs didnt like it

[trim fable]

i mean in tweakdefs. it's possible in tweakdefs.

[paper flame]

i think fig killing it in 2 shot is not crazy. considering its ez to lose fig in 2 shot to random aa. and fig is more expensive than trans

[shell jay]

I thought that was implied, but i've added it to the post 🙂

[meager helm]

Please edit and reuse existing pins instead, you call us in a lot recently.

[trim fable]

Yessir, I'll slow it down. Thanks.

oh yeah, I have a post I can just add that to. I'll do that.

[vast carbon]

Is there a tweakdef for slower t1 trans w/commander?

[full kayak]

Not a separate one, but that was a component of the air rework.

[trim fable]

Impossible with tweakunits to do that selectively for commander. It's handled by gadget.

[agile storm]

I see these separate changes as a sign of desperation- u cant make the proper change so u do stuff like nerf transport HP

[uncut panther]

I thought that transporter speed took into account weight of unit being move- Is that not the case?
Does weight only function as a check if a unit can be transported then?
Else can the commander weight not just be increased a bit, but not too much.

[agile storm]

The gadget works as a ratio of mass to speed nerfing- the max mass of trans is already at limit of current commander mass- improved by increasing the maximum speed nerf

[west veldt]

you don't understand! Its the most FUN part of the game!

[daring mango]

Changing hp of transport won't change anything about transporting comms to front

It shudnt be transportable by default

[vocal rivet]

There is a reason T1 trans can't transport ACUs in supcom.

[agile storm]

Lol im happy to see yall hate combombs

[paper flame]

It doesn't change anything in air diff case or if both sides start initial trans, it does change the risk reward

As a fighter sent can kill trans even travelling head on

[daring mango]

it wont if the guy transporting is unload-moving with transport

[paper flame]

2 shot is pretty tight reaction without radar

But yeah it doesn't change the potential of the unit, just makes fighter more attractive

It's not really my preferred change as it makes the game very twitch reaction focused and there's not much you can do when flying over gaps in water

Previously you could fly head on then it is possible to micro to stay in the rotation of the fig

Also nerfs transing regular units

[trim fable]

ey, I'm working on tweaks right now doing legion support

how many hp for 2-shot trans?

[west veldt]

in other TA games it cant either. Its even looking silly

[trim fable]

nevermind, scrolled up and found it

[west veldt]

my vote for default commander weight more for no T1 air transporting

[trim fable]

updated all of the tweakdefs to account for all commanders (including legion and evocom stuff) and added the health-reduction variant. I assumed 225 is the amount of health required to die to 2-shot whatevers, so I reduced all three t1 transports proportionally to bring legion's trans (with 300 hp normally) down to 225.

[paper flame]

better is nerf com trans speed, even better is move it to a t1.5 more expensive cost and bp trans (with 2 slots)

with 3 hits there's transport micro

[agile storm]

I wonder if y'all think it would be ok to nerf the default trans speed as a short term solution- it would hurt regular trans which is not ideal e.t.c.

[west veldt]

not default trans speed but comm carrying speed

but i'd rather just prohibit flying with comms on 100m transports
use T2 if you want comm transfer, or just use con's to take mountain mexes and other unreachable things.

contest islands and other points of interest with units, not comms

[agile storm]

Having removing com from t1 transport being somewhat reasonable just goes to show how terribly a nerf is needed

[daring mango]

certain maps revolve wholly around transporting commander and its crazy how this 1x 75metal unit gives such an advantage because it can carry the most powerful early game unit into an area it should be unreachable/take too much time walking

hellas basin/strait/koom valley/dsdr/nuclear winter etc are all maps where you get a chance to see 7 comm wrecks in 1 area due to transport

also why make bombers when u can make 10 figs and use commander on transport

[thorny hound]

The way I think about it, compared to a lot of other units, is that you can transport around, for 100m, a mobile nuke that can kill any unit kinda close to it, it cloaks, it has radar, can build a bunch of things. This seems like not the best.

[paper flame]

the difference between your ability to affect the game with and without trans (defensively and offensively -- reclaim or jumping on a com drop opportunity after sea or air win) is just mindblowing

yeah com + figs is really strong when there's a path. if you make it, leaving no wrecks is like twice the damage

normally labs can be rezzed fairly easily

[agile storm]

What if we can implement a t1 com trans speed nerf as a widget? xD

[gray meteor]

there's certain positions in almost all maps where if you trans your com and the enemy doesn't trans com you just win the lane, the advantage is crazy. Also a while back one of my friends installed the game and all he did was com drop, he didn't know how to do anything else, he got to rank 40 in 2 weeks then quit. Tell me com bombs aren't op.

[daring mango]

Well it doesnt matter if comdrop is OP, If it is balanced, Or its just lowskill play. Whether its counterable or not. It just creates for very low quality game

[thorny hound]

based

[spark finch]

Removing comm from t1 transport would let us buff the transport, too. Might actually see hotdrops more than once in a blue moon.

[paper flame]

Transport is not weak at all

Transport worker for faster cap, build heavy defense, transport sumo/sniper/etc.

Transport con turret

[spark finch]

I’m specifically speaking to its use in direct assaults. It’s weak at that.

Mostly because of vertical speed.

[paper flame]

For hot drops... i think we will see it more tho t1 spam and com drop used to suppress it

Slow unit drops were pretty bad cause usually metal heavy and countered by com drop or mass spam

[hidden night]

There is a nerf planned ? Or we are still waiting to find a good way to power it down without breaking others stuff ?

[trim fable]

I haven't seen an official statement from Zecrus yet.

[thorny hound]

ya no official anything ive seen. just experimentation. It's been played in the rotato lobby for a bit now and they seem to like it. I think it's a good change, would like to see some more on it

[frozen dirge]

to the isthmus connoisseurs, has this tweakdef been played around with on the EU evening op lobby already? whats the experience there?

[midnight agate]

I have a good idea that hopefully sets up a middle ground, will try to get it done today

[trim fable]

Doing God's work, brother

[fathom sun]

hornet the savior ? 😄

[uncut panther]

depends on what his idea is i guess...

[misty yoke]

Tell us more!

So far the tweak has been working. Yes, there are certain maps that are unplayable with it, like stronghold, but such maps should be redesigned in case we keep the trans changes.

[midnight agate]

slows trans carrying coms notably more, and the trans are more expensive. makes it much more of a risk, and slower in both timing and com delivery, so interception is vastly more likely and actually affordable. that still allows air players to ferry their coms around their bases, but trying to forward comdrop is exponentially more dangerous the further from home it is

hopefully when airs start becoming more aggressive and looking for flying coms to snipe, metas will adjust, and it then goes back to a risk/reward balance rather than 'drop or your lane lost'

[uncut panther]

how will this be incorporated into the game? a separate mod?

[midnight agate]

unsure currently. I'm planning on setting it up so it's tweak editable, so if people really want to mess around with it they can

[thorny hound]

We haven't tried it in the op strait lobby to my knowledge. I've asked a few times and people have sounded receptive but nothing yet. I do still think removing it from t1 is the move....curious to try the nerf. My issue with the nerf is that increasing t1 Trans cost actually nerfs every usage of the trans....which I don't think anyone is advocating for.

[paper flame]

Issue is it changes the sea opening a lot, esp for geo sea. I still think they can get in the sea via trans nano

Hovers are much better now for long beach and pond (since one has to commit a full com walk to contest island via com)

[agile storm]

With this realization im starting to wonder where Com trans can be good to have for the game

[thorny hound]

I think it's a good change for the sea meta given that geo sea is actually hosed if beach gets Trans and they don't. And vice versa..now timings/metas will hopefully shift away from it ie hovers etc

[thorny hound]

At t1, I don't think there is a place for com trans

[agile storm]

Like at which amount of slowness for com trans can it be fine- I mean right now I cant think of any but still

[paper flame]

people are just gonna pond swap cause they are too lazy to learn a proper opening on geo sea i think

[frozen dirge]

meh, pond swap meta is not something to look forward to, but maybe we'll have to go through it for a while. i would prefer for t1 trans to not change in cost so it can be explored further for unit transport instead.

hovers becoming more viable sounds like a positive outcome to me

[uncut panther]

The way hornet said he will set up means the cost can be tweaked to whatever is wanted - I'm guessing maybe the gadget code that interacts with weight and capacity will be changed to lower com transport speed maybe?

[agile storm]

If a tweak can change it then you can edit the com speed as you like, which was not possible with the gadget : )

[midnight agate]

corcom has a standard half speed modifier, the armcom has a tweaked in 20% instead

[thorny hound]

slowest one seems legit(cool test)

[trim fable]

Lol

[agile storm]

Lol nice

[wanton yarrow]

Haha yeah I mean that kind of goes along the theme of balance decisions in this game. If enough people complain, instead of sensible balance tweaks, just make it completely fucking useless!!! No consuls, no emp bombers, no mausers, no whistlers, and no more transports! Super awesome way to make the game so much better!!! /s

[agile storm]

If its showed that its now tweakable then that would be very noice- I suppose the PR needs be approved first tho- It seems yall have done a nice job boycotting t1 com trans : ) -tho tbh I would just revert transport cost increase because its unnecessary

[fathom sun]

half speed seem to be a good middle ground

[trim fable]

lmao just noticed the commanders dance while being transported

[thorny hound]

Complaining/whining is cool and all, but if you're making a point here can you rephrase it because I don't understand if so

Question, why slow com Trans vs no com trans at t1? The balance change being tested in rotato is no com Trans. Thoughts?

[midnight agate]

point is to show that it can be changed by tweak, the whole reasoning of the change is to allow a better option/control that 'no com transporting at all in T1'

[wanton yarrow]

Some rotato lobbies starting to look like nutty raptor meme lobbies with all the tweaks reworks and shit. Practically not even playing BAR at that point… just some random custom mod that is ranked Kekw

[meager helm]

How to say you haven't seen nutty even once without saying you haven't seen nutty even once ^

[paper flame]

geo sea can open without com trans

you transport/ walk 2nd bot con and transport a nano, com makes winds

[frozen dirge]

• [T1 Air Transports] E costs increased by 70%, buildtime increased by 20%. This change is to increase the time it takes to rush transports and share them to the team.
https://www.beyondallreason.info/development/changelog

same same but somewhat different. i guess early fighters to snipe will be somewhat more popular, but overall i dont see this changing the com mobility issue, its still so strong / invaluable to skip out on

[agile storm]

Ye I dont understand how increasing cost can be a solution- ur supposed be able get a trans by paying 2 wind

[tranquil scroll]

Well now youre paying 3 wind and getting it at least 20% slower and it cant be used in 1v1 anymore

[agile storm]

Certainly not for much else than just moving a com around

Considering the idea of removing com from t1 trans should also include bp+e-cost- Decrease, so can more easily get one out if someone paid

[frozen dirge]

bit sad that this will probably not affect trans com usage choice, but regular unit t1 trans usage will be seen even less

[hidden night]

The nerf isn't nearly enough, op rotato lobby is still playing with the no com transport T1 tweak :p

[midnight agate]

I thought that might happen unfortunately. I'll cook mine up into something, might default to normal com behaviour if needed, and provide a tweak to activate if desired. then they can tune it for whatever they want

on one hand I disagree with too much lobby custom rolling, on other, I can't think of a better way to try possible permutations in relevant environment

[thorny hound]

Ya I think we need to stay away from changing the cost of the Trans. We aren't talking about nerfing t1 Trans for all cases. We are talking about the balance interaction of being able to specifically move a commander with a t1 Trans. We should just disable that single interaction in the game. Then, maybe later we explore further nerfs at a different time.

@midnight agate do you know if the above change was related to something else for t1 Trans being nerfed broadly.

[midnight agate]

afaik it's just to delay the flying coms

[tranquil scroll]

It was probably mostly to nerf that 1v1 cheese

[paper flame]

yeah this is the downside

nerfing the syndrome for now not the cause

[thorny hound]

Ya this cost change almost seems unrelated

[midnight agate]

the cause is commander OP unit, which isn't likely to change unless we make all coms like the old legion one

and that would be a fun day on discord

[agile storm]

no it would not lol🙃

[hidden night]

another day, another lobby with transport T1 disabled in op lobby =)

[open hearth]

game dying big sad

[agile storm]

Nah this is healthy! -Similar concept as when unionized ppl go on strike for better work conditions 🙃 -now I just hope Hornet gets the idea to work

[midnight agate]

I've already done it, technically

I can PR it but no promise it will be merged, that's a different problem

[feral pier]

remove com trans entirely, then as a consolation prize, add pawn launcher to base game and allow it to launch com

[midnight agate]

ah yes the old yeetomatic

[midnight agate]

Merged, so I have a present for you all, try this on for size, it will noticably slow commander transport speed;

note these are tweakunits, not tweakdefs

Mild slow:
LS1Ib3JuZXQgY29tdHJhbnMgMzAlIG5lcmYKewphcm1jb20gPSB7CmN1c3RvbVBhcmFtcyA9IHsKdHJhbnNwb3J0c3BlZWRtdWx0PTAuMTUsCn0sCn0sCmNvcmNvbSA9IHsKY3VzdG9tUGFyYW1zID0gewp0cmFuc3BvcnRzcGVlZG11bHQ9MC4xNSwKfSwKfSwKbGVnY29tID0gewpjdXN0b21QYXJhbXMgPSB7CnRyYW5zcG9ydHNwZWVkbXVsdD0wLjE1LAp9LAp9LAp9LS0t

Medium slow:
LS1Ib3JuZXQgY29tdHJhbnMgMzAlIG5lcmYKewphcm1jb20gPSB7CmN1c3RvbVBhcmFtcyA9IHsKdHJhbnNwb3J0c3BlZWRtdWx0PTAuMywKfSwKfSwKY29yY29tID0gewpjdXN0b21QYXJhbXMgPSB7CnRyYW5zcG9ydHNwZWVkbXVsdD0wLjMsCn0sCn0sCmxlZ2NvbSA9IHsKY3VzdG9tUGFyYW1zID0gewp0cmFuc3BvcnRzcGVlZG11bHQ9MC4zLAp9LAp9LAp9LS0t

Alternative version, much stronger, better on smaller maps perhaps:

LS1Ib3JuZXQgY29tdHJhbnMgMzAlIG5lcmYKewphcm1jb20gPSB7CmN1c3RvbVBhcmFtcyA9IHsKdHJhbnNwb3J0c3BlZWRtdWx0PTAuNSwKfSwKfSwKY29yY29tID0gewpjdXN0b21QYXJhbXMgPSB7CnRyYW5zcG9ydHNwZWVkbXVsdD0wLjUsCn0sCn0sCmxlZ2NvbSA9IHsKY3VzdG9tUGFyYW1zID0gewp0cmFuc3BvcnRzcGVlZG11bHQ9MC41LAp9LAp9LAp9LS0t

[agile storm]

Nice work! We have done it -seems the tweak is transportspeedmult = 1.0-0.0 within customparams section

[agile storm]

OK so I think a fair speed is if its twice the speed of com walking lol- if u put on 0.6 it becomes extremely slow xD

[grand kraken]

jfyi, transporters carrying coms are disabled in most TA mods, this is just the natural progression of a games meta imho

though I think speed nerf is better approach than disable

[grand kraken]

keep in mind transporter can carry com up mountains and paths it wouldn't otherwise be able to do

[agile storm]

Ye but ye- atleast have it move faster than walking xD- The speed before speed nerf was absolutely bonkers btw

[thorny hound]

Def still in the no com in t1 Trans camp...but curious about the slow changes

[agile storm]

I never was thinking the goal was actually removing the com t1 trans- solution is already here smh- tho to be fair I have no idea what caused the certain switch towards not wanting t1 com trans to begin with lol

[wanton yarrow]

This really one of the most AIDS solutions. It’s worse than just turning off transport. Completely unusable and pretty much slower than walking.

[real stream]

we should treat transports like a glider and have transport speed just be proportional to current wind speed

[midnight agate]

ah yes because you can walk commanders up cliffs, naturally

the whole point is to make commanders not easy to fly around, but the degree of reduction is changable. it allows cross-terrain movement without letting fronts and islands become a com trans rush

[wanton yarrow]

There’s something about operating a forklift in a fast past RTS game that makes it emersion breaking, lame, looks dumb as fuck, and unfun.

[midnight agate]

given the size of the commander relative to the transport, frankly it makes far more sense it's slow as molasses

[wanton yarrow]

Not really.

[midnight agate]

0.6 was meant for lobbies that would otherwise prefer to disable it, 0.3 should be saner for most. I can make a lighter one which would be better moreso on really large maps, potentially

[wanton yarrow]

“Saner”

It’s already nerfed from before anyways. This is just piling on top. Commander in transport is already slower than any unit

[midnight agate]

yet still fast enough to be flown most places start of game with little chance for enemy air to intercept, whilst also griefing their own team by not spamming comtaxis in meantime

slower makes that window larger, makes it more a risk/reward decision

[wanton yarrow]

Nah, the other solutions presented are much better

Making the transport cost more and more BP was the best solution. Making it 2 shot from nettle was like an okay compromise.

This is one of the worst solutions yet. Making it slow and aids to use. But it’s like the philosophy of most balance decisions right now it seems.

[midnight agate]

that was part of this originally also, with less slowdown

but zecrus already put a cost tax in game, which doesn't alter it overmuch in most lobbies

[wanton yarrow]

Instead of keeping game dynamic by making sensible tweaks, just make things aids to use and then nobody uses them. Consuls, stilletos, shurikens soon, com transports, mausers, etc. there’s a growing list of units nobody uses because devs think “oh, the solution is to just make it unfun to use”

Mausers literally can’t even f-attack move. They just run directly into the enemy trying to melee them now. Super “fun”

[midnight agate]

the whole point of my making it a tweak is so that a value can be found

[wanton yarrow]

Yeah well you’re missing the forest for the tree

You might be technically correct in balancing the values here but you’re completely wrong on user experience

[midnight agate]

unfortunately that's highly subjective. most people prefer the game without hero units and flying bombs appearing to negate anything in opening stages, including expansion and/or your own base

[wanton yarrow]

I’m not saying that that part is fun and optimal for satisfaction.

But the solution doesn’t have to be making things unusable. I’ve already listed examples of better solutions. I’m just saying yours sucks and I hope it doesn’t make it into the game.

[midnight agate]

in order to not nerf T1 transports overall, the only option is either A: alter the commander to not be what it is, or B: tax the commander's speed whilst in transport to make it vulnerable

[wanton yarrow]

Nah there’s even solutions for adding upgrade to transports or time locking it

[midnight agate]

both of those wouldn't be allowed in base game

[wanton yarrow]

5 minutes is pretty sensible for someone to have a good enough economy to make 2 nettles

[midnight agate]

closest might be a different T1.5 transport

[wanton yarrow]

Welp there’s that one too

Makes sense that there should be a t 1.5 transport that can carry a Beamer. Doesn’t make sense a Beamer needs t2

There’s a huge disparity in the utility of t1 and t2 transports. A t1,5 transport that could individually carry mammoths makes a lot of sense and is a smaller investment than skyhooks that are gatekept behind a t2 air lab

[full kayak]

I threw that out as a concept because I think it fits best. It would also be a great place for core to have a good transport, since abductors are tiers above whatever the core T2 trans is called

[wanton yarrow]

Skyhooker

[midnight agate]

close enough

[wanton yarrow]

It’s like a prostitute from space @full kayak

[full kayak]

That stat diff is WILD

[midnight agate]

it costs more to do less, and is slower, which means the extra HP doesn't matter much when doing non-safe drops

[wanton yarrow]

Skyhookers more tankier than abductors

[full kayak]

I mean +700 HP doesn't allow for conested landings like hornet said

[midnight agate]

IMO it needs either a lot more chonk, as AA is really powerful with bonus, or a weapon or something

[wanton yarrow]

Skyhookers should have light AA or light ground

That’d make sense , clear the Lz of ticks and shit. Or swat away t1 shit

[full kayak]

Different conversation

In the context of this thread, if you add a 1.5 trans, the core one could outshine arm for this instance

[wanton yarrow]

Well you brought up the disparity

[full kayak]

Fair enough

[midnight agate]

true that. I tested armed transports with Legion, it works well, but also partly because it is the gunship too

I'd be fine with a 1.5 transport option, especially if the core one was militant

[full kayak]

Should start another thread for the Skyhook I suppose

[agile storm]

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1249631352098127932

[midnight agate]

that's a tricky one because shuriken exist, base game banshees not good enough to offset shuri utility

so double stacking core T1 air lab would negate arm air starts

[full kayak]

Yes, but balancing around broken shuris also isn't ideal

[midnight agate]

reality is what it is right now

as you know I want banshee reworked to usability, but until then...

[wanton yarrow]

banshees aren't even that bad right now. only thing is maybe nerf the ground to air damage for non-aa dedicated

if i'm on fusion eco, i can spam out 20 banshees in a pinch to help a lane, that doens't feel that bad.

its just that early game they are useless, you can't like use them to pick off some t1 units contesting rocks on a map or something like that.

they are so fragile that you can just send 5 pawns and kill one harassing you

[midnight agate]

but anyway, the main rationale is that whatever the solution, the air player in a small team game should be able to fly their com to support a front/set up their base. the only way I can see to do that without cripplingly expensive T1 trans (for all use cases) is slowing the transport, to make multiple flying coms greatly disincentivised. even a 1.5 trans would probably be too late for that option to be useful

other suggestions that meet that criteria are very welcome

[real stream]

just nerf com already for gods sake that's probably out of scope for this thread.

I think adding another transport just seems like too much, 3 transports over 2 tech tiers is just a lot of units that all basically do the same thing.

[midnight agate]

hottest of all takes: make all commanders act like the old legion commander

[real stream]

I think just slowing com transport specifically is the most elegant solution seeing as it's already slower, but finding the right combination of costs and speed to make it feel good and not intrude on other strategies will be tricky

[midnight agate]

hence my essentially crowdsourcing that, let the lobsters argue amongst themselves rather than at me

[real stream]

yea I'm in agreement

[spark finch]

I’d still like an option for a NOTA-style giant immobile command tower. Not the dumb existing one in our options, a real one that’s good enough to justify being immobile.

[full kayak]

We've played a lot of games with no com trans and 2 shot trans, and both play differently. I think that a 1.5 trans is better solution than either of those. The super reduced speed com feels like you might as well just play with no com trans. The only usability for it is up/down cliffs it seems like

[midnight agate]

were you using 0.3 or 0.6?

[full kayak]

tbh I don't know

[real stream]

I mean, personally that sounds like it's the entire point. You can't just com trans anywhere to get free map control, but rather to specific locations in pursuit of specific strategies

but I haven't played or watched it so idk. .3 does seem awful slow

[midnight agate]

0.6 was the alternative one for either shoebox maps or lobbies that basically wanted comtrans off in a less nuclear way, but is too slow for huge maps

[full kayak]

I assume the 0.3, because it felt like I could get married, raise a family and send my children off to college before my commander would arrive

At that speed, it feels like you might as well just remove T1 com trans entirely

[midnight agate]

ey0tLS0tcComtrans015NerfLS1Ib3JuZXQgY29tdHJhbnMgbmVyZgphcm1jb20gPSB7CmN1c3RvbVBhcmFtcyA9IHsKdHJhbnNwb3J0c3BlZWRtdWx0PTAuMTUsCn0sCn0sCmNvcmNvbSA9IHsKY3VzdG9tUGFyYW1zID0gewp0cmFuc3BvcnRzcGVlZG11bHQ9MC4xNSwKfSwKfSwKbGVnY29tID0gewpjdXN0b21QYXJhbXMgPSB7CnRyYW5zcG9ydHNwZWVkbXVsdD0wLjE1LAp9LAp9LAp9LS0tLS0t
try that one

which is 0.15, hence the tag

but that's pretty minimal, on smaller maps wouldn't change too much at all

[agile storm]

U can edit it urself- its tweakable was the idea

[midnight agate]

indeed, but sometimes it helps to get the ball rolling. plus tagging tweaks is a dark art and I'd rather have it labelled

now the summary of the tweak hash in lobby tells you what it is

[thorny hound]

Slowing it is just more complex than it needs to be. Just remove it like the rotato 🥔 have been doing. Ez

[midnight agate]

screws over smaller games where air player has to multi role

[thorny hound]

How?

[full kayak]

I also limits team saving in 8v8 and makes com walking much much stronger. We had a few games where a com walk would happen. Normally you just fly another com and trade before you lose bases. Can't with no tweak. Not saying it's bad per say, but it does change how things play out.

[midnight agate]

usually smaller games the air has to be more involved & help on front too, usually with com. could argue that it's fair if both can't, but it'd probably make fronts too brittle

[full kayak]

Also strengthens T3, because it's rare to have T2 trans around for the initial T3 push, if your com isn't in position it gets real ugly

[thorny hound]

This will.change with time, t2 Trans is always able to be built when t3 shows up. People will actually make them

[wanton yarrow]

I don’t understand why that’s the criteria. You can just build front air lab and transport constructor from team mate to back cap mexes and commander is already at front.

[paper flame]

the air player can always build t2 trans but everyone else won't be able to instantly make lab and trans

[full kayak]

At least in rotation lobbies it's also common for early T3 to hit before T2 air is really online. Especially in a contested air MU.

[paper flame]

that's crazy xD. i feel like without t2 air lab you are so blind

feel like if there's at least 2 angles of air attack towards your backline positions you are toast against eco air

if travel distance is shorter it makes sense tho

[thorny hound]

Imho dying to an early t3 push sounds fantastic to dying to a com dgunning my entire team's existence 45s into the game, but it does buff t3 a bit to be sure, not sure the extent tho. Also any other big unit at t2 that gets comdropped. See zar,fatboy

[hearty mist]

does the speed coefficient adjust t2 transports as well or only t1 ?

[midnight agate]

only T1

iirc it will technically apply very slight change to T2 but with their higher base speed the change isn't notable (unless you stuff the transport with mammoths too)

[grand kraken]

I really like the idea of a t1.5 transport that can pick up commander. disabling commander pick up from t1 transport and then balance the cost of 1.5 around commander instead

[paper flame]

t1 com transport existing is good but cost needs to be balanced

clunky to have an extra unit ig

[agile storm]

Its not pointless just because Com trans becomes a little slower xD

[blazing pecan]

I don't know... seems like a T1.5 transport would have too much overlap with the T1/T2 transports in BAR's design space. If the only extra feature is "can transport commander", its seems too close to the options already available to stand on its own

[real stream]

This is where paid unit upgrades would be cool

but not gonna happen in BAR

[thorny hound]

Remove from t1, use t2. Ez

[full kayak]

Eh, a 1.5 trans to move mammoths would be pretty dope tbh

[hearty mist]

could make it so that the commandr is the only unit that can build the t1.5 transport that can carry itself

[full kayak]

I think the ability to transport heavy units in T1 actually would be interesting, although I'm curious if tower dropping would actually become viable

[blazing pecan]

I have PTSD just from imagining it...

But I'm open to trying anything at least once 🙂

[dim plover]

It’s just your imagination

Just think of all the wasted metal that occurs when the transport gets shot down

[tidal pine]

for an on-the-fly solution that has zero downsides and was able to be implemented straight away, this is extremely well done

is it perfect? of course not - but you deserve applause for putting in the effort as a volunteer to try to improve everyone's experience

[midnight agate]

much appreciated, thankyou

[frozen dirge]

how about this:

t1 trans: revert cost, disable com transport. encourage light unit transport plays (cons, nanos, raider units) rather than discouraging with recent cost increase
t1.5 trans: used for com transport / some unit transport edge cases which required t2 transport before (maybe not mammoth, but as mentioned beamer / other medium-ish units that arent t1 transportable currently). cost & speed can be fine-tuned to deal with com transport concerns specifically.
t2 trans: rework to find some entirely new op use case (units can shoot while being transported? increase max transported units & unload speed by a lot? add repair ability to support dropped units?), currently not used at all other than for non-transport reasons (aka abductor)

[north delta]

I agree with that, yeah it may seem OP, but... it requires teamplay to pull it off, so it's a good thing. And you can still get your com sniped by enemy fighters...

[hidden night]

No, if 5 com use transport, you can't block all of them with fighters...
Even if only one transport is used, you need to gamble the placement of your fighters on the map...

And overall, if both team spam transport (current meta on multiple maps) nobody have fighters and ground commander can't do anything to counter it.

[north delta]

I don't mind the gamble of fighter placement, it's part of the game. Why should all commander transporting be prevented ? It's a skill.

[hidden night]

It's not a skill, on some map, most of the metal of the lane is in the center, in this case, the front with a transport auto win is lane if the enemy don't have a transport and they have nearly the same skill level.

I don't want my lane to be won on air gamble and not on my skill as a frontlane player.

[north delta]

Maybe modify the map then. Don't punish all the other maps where transport is a skill.

[hidden night]

A lot of map have contested reclaim or huge mex in the middle, it's not one specific map...

[jaunty beacon]

That’s a map issue

[hidden night]

It's not....
You can nearly TP your com and you are like "we shouldn't have important things on the map and conserve the tp!"....
The important points on the map create contested area and fights, without it the game is only a rush afus thing, and it's boring.

[thorny hound]

Not sure where the t1.5 would fit in alll this. having three different air trans in the game seems pretty odd given the use case. This doesn't seem better than removing t1 com Trans and then just make t2 Trans fill that role

[jaunty beacon]

Bismuth is not a map where you fly your com anywhere. It is a map issue

[paper flame]

You know what also requires teamplay? Contesting reclaim with UNITS

[wanton yarrow]

T2 transport can carry 3 mammoths. It makes sense that 1.5 can transport one. It’s also costly and less HP. I’m not sure why you wouldn’t transport a mammoth. Plus it’s cool mechanic to try before deciding it’s “op” on paper alone.

[agile storm]

Ability for t2 trans to carry several units make 0 sense xD

Yknow I think its time we give this thread a new name 🤔

[wanton yarrow]

I think it makes perfect sense. Why would you need to buy 5 transports to carry 5 pawns.

That would be dumb as fuck

[agile storm]

Why would u wanna carry 5 pawns xD- Chrono is he here he needs rename thread to something relevant- main problem with carrying 4 mammoths is that it looks terrible and noone has ever exploited that mechanic ingame as far as I know- Currently u can literally carry 8 mammoths with 1 t2 trans- Probably was no thought put into it, hasnt been brought up because ability to trans with t2 has basically been irrelevant- nothing outside of mammoth rush to front on supreme

[thorny hound]

We do not need to add a transport to the game to move a mammoth. We already have one and it's balanced fine

[paper flame]

moving mammoth with a t1 buildable trans is pretty insane

[thorny hound]

Yes, it's wild frankly. The t1.5 thing makes very little sense to me.

[spark finch]

Could remove the multi-transport thing from t2 transports alongside buffing its other aspects. Multi-transport is completely wonky anyway.

So wonky that removing multi-transport would be a buff by itself.

[paper flame]

multi transport is okay
abductor should be ablet o trans 4 pawns or w/e or 3 flak trucks

[spark finch]

The idea is ok. The actual mechanics are not.

[wanton yarrow]

Not really... just think about it. The mammoths are already gated behind T2. If you wanted to do it with T2 transports right now, all you need to do is build 6 mammoths from your t2 lab in backline, reclaim lab, build a t2 air lab, then make 2 t2 transports and fly them to the front. It's just tedious non-sense gameplay that is gatekept for no reason. Depending on how many nanos y ou have (which 6-12 is highly likely at t2) you can do this in a matter of 30ish seconds, which saves like 5 minutes of walking time for mammoths.

[open hearth]

Rest in pepperoni t1 transport com, u were my favorite thing about bar

[wanton yarrow]

To do the same thing with a t1.5 transport, you'd make 6 transports, which is way less cost effective than 2 t2 transports and takes just about as much time to reclaim t2 lab and make t2 air lab and 2x t2 transports.

[open hearth]

You know coms don't even produce resources in them while flying. Air players just so terrabad that we subsidize their inability to react to t1 transport by removing it from game

[wanton yarrow]

Yeah I'm really not for these changes, but 99% of op lobby just votes removal of t1 com transport now, so might as well just make t1.5 transport and see where the meta lands

[paper flame]

those 30 seconds is a big deal. not to mention 30k energy cost in air lab. If you only temporary make a t2 air lab you have to decide how many you are going to make, if they die you cannot replace them later until your air player goes t2

ofc it's still much better than walking

mammoth is almost a tier 3 unit, if you can deal with it's speed. imagine if light-t3 was transportable with a t2 transport? would be game defining.

[wanton yarrow]

i mean you can just test it and see how fast you can swap, its really just non-sense pedantism

[paper flame]

swapping fast is skill expression 😎

[wanton yarrow]

w/e

[paper flame]

literally the instant someone makes a mammoth they can transport it with t1 trans? does that not seem kinda nuts to you?
they could be the only t2 lab on the team

[wanton yarrow]

lol

you're acting as if they can't just co-op the lab in the front and build the mammoth in the front line

[paper flame]

you all know the risks of putting your buildings on the front line...

[wanton yarrow]

i literally already do this on rosetta 10 mex

yeah okay... obviously you build it where your front is safe

[paper flame]

well then what's the problem? perks of being ahead. calculated risk

[wanton yarrow]

transporting a mammoth is already a huge risk vs competnt air player

[mortal tapir]

This thread has made me want to rush two figs and 3 bombers.

[wanton yarrow]

imagine losing a mammoth to 3 figs

[paper flame]

radar and landing micro. they prolly don't have stealth figs

[wanton yarrow]

anyways theres plenty of counterplay for t1.5 transport which can be shot down in t1

and i would say put it in the game first and only take it out if its broken, just theory crafting that its broken before even trying it is kekw

this game is literally in alpha, taking risks like this shouldn't even be a debate

"oh no its broken for 2 days" - we literally sat through consul meta for 3 months

not to mention you can just tweak def it out , like we did consul

[paper flame]

you should never lose cargo vs t1 figs flying over land

[wanton yarrow]

whatever

[paper flame]

"huge risk" my ass

[wanton yarrow]

that's such a bad argument, nobody is microing transports 24/7 all the time

[paper flame]

if it's the most important play you are doing atm sure you are

[wanton yarrow]

it is.. its lke what? 3000 metal? how much is a mammoth?

mammoth cost literally 2/3 of a t2 lab

it wont even be a problem, imagine building 3 t2 labs after your first t2 lab, how fucking fast could it possibly be

and then once its in front line its slower than tzar ... can get dgunned so easily

[paper flame]

the thing with mammoth + trans is like commander + trans on the defence

[wanton yarrow]

haha

[paper flame]

you bypass the weakness of slow units, they can only be in one place at once. top side collapsing? trans a mammoth their problem solved

[wanton yarrow]

yeah i mean you just use a t2 transport and its exact same thing

you build 1 less mammoth and instead make a t2 air lab, like hooooly fuck why is this even a discussion

[paper flame]

salty boi

[wanton yarrow]

nobody is transporting 3 mammoths around map with fragile t1 transport

[paper flame]

ofc the assumption is it only holds 1

if you are at the stage where 1 less mammoth is not a big deal then that's already t2 air lab stage

[wanton yarrow]

making a mammoth in itself = t2 air lab stage

[paper flame]

apparently not from what i see in rotato
demons hitting when t2 air barely arriving

[wanton yarrow]

lmfao, it cost 2200 metal, you can't even afford it on t1 mexes

[paper flame]

my issue with trans-com is not it being "ends the game OP", it's that it "solves all your problems" OP

[wanton yarrow]

my issue is that people too lazy to use the proper tools to counter a specific strategy they find annoying to deal with and then demand changes to the game because they are lazy and don't want to use the actual solution to their problem.

that and they over-exagerate their problem

so many times someone lands their com in someone's base, dguns a lab, feeds 1250 metal, and loses game b/c its not even worth it

[north delta]

https://tenor.com/view/first-time-meme-first-time-the-ballad-of-buster-scruggs-gif-24656975

[north delta]

we went too far though, people don't use consul now

what are they gonna use it for ? Make gunslingers ?

[wanton yarrow]

Now it’s just a shitty expensive butler lmfao

That can’t even make wind

[north delta]

people ask for twitcher to make fiends nowadays, which is fine

[wanton yarrow]

The arm equivalent would be a sprinter and … ummm… yeah.

[north delta]

yeah...

[wanton yarrow]

Can’t even make that piece of shit.

[north delta]

consul is a vehicle it should make vehicles anyway, but I guess people would whine if consuls could make jags....

[frozen dirge]

consul can make nanos and t1 con, easy (re)build anywhere. cant do that with butler

the problem with gating com transport behind t2 air lab is that it usually is available way too late for a bunch of interesting com transport interactions. thats where the t1.5 transport idea shines - its still available early / not gated behind t2 lab, but you can price it way differently from a regular t1 transport (so its not viable to rely on com transport from the very start)

-> buy a t1.5 transport to defend suspected sala rush, or comwalk / bomb at 4-5+ minutes, rather than minute 1. by that time some figs are expected to be up and its a lot more riskier to fly coms around aggressively

[agile storm]

Thats where t2 should shine tho instead- if t.1.5 made able tank figs and lift units with 5500 mass somewhat then whats the point- but ye those units can of course just get higher mass totals

[frozen dirge]

i dont think t1.5 trans should tank figs a lot more, just that there is still a t1 lab com transport option that is not viable to go for as first unit for air player

[agile storm]

U dont think just nerfing speed at com trans with t1 is good enough?

[frozen dirge]

havent played / spectated a lobby with the com transport speed tweak yet, only the full t1 transport disabled ones.

gut feeling wise the "slow com transport until its nearly as fast as walking" kinda defeats the purpose of transporting, other than cliff stuff

[agile storm]

Would it be ok that instead the com only moves at 2.5x regular walking- while giving ability to climb terrain?

[frozen dirge]

and if its still at a usable speed, it will still be optimal to go for com transport start just as it is now, just as the increased e cost for t1 transport didnt change much

i guess theres a sweet spot number somewhere where the penalty of com not producing m/e while in transport balances with the gains of shipping it around as part of your opening, but that seems very map dependent

[agile storm]

I think would be fine to make the transport cheaper (-cheaper than originally) on top of speed penalty- shuld be inteteresting

[frozen dirge]

from my perspective the main issue with current state is that air player is forced to open x number of transports for team otherwise your allies are pretty much behind their opponent lane. the later-on mobility of a commander for defending / offensive plays is imo not a problem ("skill expression"), mostly because by that time everyone had a chance to establish, including air players getting a few figs

what i like about the early t1 transport usage is that it is being used for other purposes too, after the com has been shipped to its destination. thats why i suggest the t1 / t1.5 transport separation

[agile storm]

Combined utility in the one unit is better imo

[frozen dirge]

but maybe its all not that much of a deal and t2 transport works fine. i guess it limits com later mobility to some ~10ish+ minute timing which makes a bunch of earlier timings more powerful (salamanders, tzar)

[agile storm]

Early rush timers feel like more of a communism issue imo- feels bad that only solution should be dgun

[frozen dirge]

most tzar / sala timings work just fine without communism

communism makes em faster sure

[frozen dirge]

its not the only solution, but if a tzar comes rolling, u gotta wait / delay for (sniper/emp bot/starlight/your own tzar), which are all dependent on your own geo player. with dgun at least you have some kind of ability to interfere. transport allows you to do that from positions other than front. similar with a sala push on say geo sea beach - for pond or eco to respond in time theres so much distance to pass from their lab to the incoming push, you can basically only hope they catch them after wiping geo seas land presence and before leaking in further. in all those cases a transportable com allows someone to salvage the situation somewhat which makes for better gameplay imo. i only have isthmus examples, sorry 😄

[agile storm]

Ye it happens on Isthmus definitely xD- tzar is supposed be decent against com : ) -should be a flak around to assist aswell imo- usually I just see counters be stuff like wasps and stuff idk

[agile storm]

@midnight agate I just wondered how the tweak actually works. Is it relative to mass like the original gadget, but that u can define specific speed penalties to all individual units? In which case it should be possible to use unitdefs to add a custom speed penalty to all units?

[midnight agate]

just commanders

[jade skiff]

fwiw, tweakdef in op lobby lately disables coms being transportable by t1 trans, and I think I like it

if that ever becomes default, should buff trans by a lot to encourage drop-play

[midnight agate]

try to talk them into trying the slow tweak instead, it still keeps tactical options of short terrain traversal trips with commander, or risky flights, rather than a nuclear option of full disable

[misty yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1257653069454508075

[paper flame]

Trans is already good just takes effort to use

[potent prairie]

yea agree with chrono - people just dont use trans at all when in some situations they are better bombers than bombers - you can make like ten t1 trans, and transport fiends with 1 radar bot and 1 jammer bot and this squad can do so much unexpected damage its fun, but at proper t2 trans doens't have enough health which is a pity, especially for cortex t2 trans

[paper flame]

trans nano, sniper, gunslinger, cons, t2 cons, spybot, halberd, sumo, consul/twitcher (lol)

trans flak truck is big brain high apm

the defensive flak aircraft already exists, it's called flak trucks in transports

[midnight agate]

@cunning birch

[paper flame]

you can also pick up units/con turrets to save them

[wicked leaf]

Transport dies after "shooting" once ?

[paper flame]

ey0tLS0tcComtransNerf030LS1Ib3JuZXQgY29tdHJhbnMgbmVyZgphcm1jb20gPSB7CmN1c3RvbVBhcmFtcyA9IHsKdHJhbnNwb3J0c3BlZWRtdWx0PTAuMywKfSwKfSwKY29yY29tID0gewpjdXN0b21QYXJhbXMgPSB7CnRyYW5zcG9ydHNwZWVkbXVsdD0wLjMsCn0sCn0sCmxlZ2NvbSA9IHsKY3VzdG9tUGFyYW1zID0gewp0cmFuc3BvcnRzcGVlZG11bHQ9MC4zLAp9LAp9LAp9LS0tLS0t

no mod com trans is ~160 speed
modded is -30%, about 112

[midnight agate]

note pinned tweaks updated to use better labelling system - might not be final form yet but getting there

[midnight agate]

@atomic girder

[fallow quartz]

ALTERNATIVE SUGGESTION TO SLOWING TRANSPORTS:

No-drop range around initial player starting positions that lasts 10 minutes (or longer). Would highly deter com drop without having to nerf transport around the map.

Alternative: Similar to com dgun shield, you could have a range around commander that prevents unloading enemy commanders from transports.

"Commander teleporting in creates a transport repulsion field" kind of thing.

[misty yoke]

Devs dont like arbitrary timers

[agile storm]

Looks like its new meta to have slow trans option turned on. Mission accomplished🎉

[fathom sun]

Yes and it s great

[shell jay]

Also +1 for slow-com trans

[midnight agate]

[open hearth]

legit ruining games

[midnight agate]

howso?

and how would no T1 com trans at all, be better in such examples?

[full kayak]

Rotation lobbies generally still run with no com trans

[open hearth]

All of these nerfs unnecessary and ruining game you will realize it one day

Means less viable builds

Less diversity et

But not enpugh people were doing optimal coop to start with so it will take time to realize implications I feel

It just means now since you can't time build around com bp moving around map it will become even more of a share fest to achieve same bp timing now

[thorny hound]

id suggest the ruining games part is that you can still load the com in the transport at all. Needs to be removed entirely

[paper flame]

com trans is just a formality you don't need it to commie. you lose money transporting com the upside is no startup time for them to make con turrets, and ofc the military power of a com at the speed of a t2 gunship lmao

[frozen dirge]

normalize nano transports now

and butler groups assisting allies

[open hearth]

By the times butlers and nanos get into the mix it isn't really about bp allocation anymore

I'm talking about the first 3 minutes of gameplay, it means a lot for build orders

If a com can help you build a lab faster or build a geo faster etc

[midnight agate]

does that not mean in fact, more viable builds?

rather than one optimal build reliant on a transport at X timing precisely, in order to have the map play out the exact same way every time?

[open hearth]

Just because you take away a good option doesn't mean you create alternatives, you just make less options more forced

Now I have no choice but to do x

[agile storm]

Thats how balancing works. Previously was no option transport other thing with transport since com transport always better, but now that is not the case. Bruh

[full kayak]

Or gifted butlers assisting your lab while you don't say anything.

[paper flame]

com trans removal makes con + nano trans to setup a lab viable strat now

previously it was very hard to secure an outpost vs com trans walk dgun. without having a com yourself

also it equalizes putting your com underwater. Previously you were fairly incentivized to keep your com on land, since it gives you such good mobility
now water + land is equal mobility

[open hearth]

Not true, transport required e tra coordination and much more versatile builds like proxy bases or sneak attacks etc. Now that you can't ship bp without existing infrastructure its just not even worth going those builds anymore so game becomes less diverse

[midnight agate]

you can still get com there, just not as quickly / with greater risk to do so

and given the power of forward coms & bases, it's valid to put a risk tax on that

[open hearth]

Risk tax or elimination tax cause that's what it sounds like yall atre doing

[thorny hound]

Yep less diverse builds ie 0 dropping coms in bases is a win

[open hearth]

Skill issue af

[paper flame]

skill issue is needing a 160 speed com to defend leaks

or com trans to fix your bad com position

[agile storm]

This is a nerf to t1 transports so its necessary to also make them cheaper, idk if thats inlcuded in the slow transports option? Hornet u know?

[midnight agate]

only speed is changed
comdrop is nerfed rather than transports themselves

[agile storm]

Oof well the T1 trans does get nerfed by comdrop not working so needs buff for viability with other things to transport

[shell jay]

I don't understand your logic there -Transport hasn't been nerfed, the commander being transported has.

[agile storm]

Commander transport speed right? Like the devs did do a cost increase just because com transport was good, balancing around com trans power. Now that power is reduced which means a loss of utility -) reduction of value -) should have cost decrease/other buff. Not always the case but in this case the comtrans was an outlier that was now fixed, so generally transport usage less powerful now. Tho change can only happen if slower com speed is the default