Cortex T2 bot long range hitscan burst t3 counter concept; name: TBD (Deadeye, Gungnir,...etc...)

[drifting plume]

if someone has the dev build and github and want to try out the current unit and run some tests let me know that would be helpful 🙂

[sharp stone]

you called my name? 😉

I happen to have github and a dev version.

[drifting plume]

righ on 😁

[sharp stone]

it lives on my PC, now 😄

[manic stump]

this unit is all terrain rightt? if not it should be

also, was this added to the unit canidates ?

[drifting plume]

no not yet, it is still in early testing final development however it will go probably first in extra units and get more testing from there, currently only if u have the devbuild and github u can test it, but singleplayer only

[drifting plume]

no it will not be, botlike movement

[manic stump]

id say dont put it in extra unit pack, put it in tthe canidate pack, that way it can acttually get some testing, extra unit pack is only used for pve,

most of the canidates have been moved to main builld, so its good we're gettting some new ones,. II personally think this unit is perfect for cortex, cortex bots in llacking in alot of ways, especially having the commando being as useless as it is,, alot less optionns than armada has

[umbral flame]

i dont think thats up to him

[drifting plume]

i dont want to rush anything, and there are already some new candidates coming in game, i want to see how those affect overall balance before having anything strictly definitive here and yes its also not up to me the final decision

if it gets in extra units will be good for testing pvp in custom games between us here in this discussion like setting up a custom testing lobby with some other extra units disabled and see how it really perform in a pvp environment

currently im experimenting with some custom exlposion effects at least try to lol

[sharp stone]

It plays nicely. I am not sure about the power level, thought.
But that just means it isn't op as f*** or up

[drifting plume]

feel like its too much? a bit too much? slightly too much? what would you change about it?

[sharp stone]

I can't tell, yet.

In combination with Mammoth+ Rez bots it is killer.
Because it doesn't instantly destroy all corpses.
So there is a huge snow ball effect.
Against an AI it doesn't mean much though.

Will need more play testing

[drifting plume]

definitley more play and pvp testing is required, thanks for tryin it out

[red cipher]

At this point I suggest the Deadeye has less dps per cost than the shooter/starlight, but have it's burst shot capabilities improved to diffrentiate with arm

Shooter and starlight maintain its superiority in the anti-t3 department, but deadeye is more flexible

[drifting plume]

it needs to be tested with players before, i have tried it and yes it is strong but only because the AI keeps "feeding" the mammoths, i wonder how a human player would react to counter it, i presume it would stop feeding them and reorganize some counterattack

snipers could still outrange this combo and kill the mammoths from relative safety but they would need some micro and make use of their cloak

[umbral flame]

starlight and sniper already both have significant advantages over the deadeye in other areas, let cor have something nice 😛

[quartz solar]

That was indeed the idea of this unit..

[worldly prism]

Honestly its best to give it live testing to really work out where its good at. It will point out if it really needs a change with the feedback.

[red cipher]

it has arbiter

half the cost of standard issue heavy rocket launchers

[drifting plume]

arbiter has very slow projectiles it is good to stationary targets not the rest, by the time the missile gets there your targets has moved elsewere unless your enemy is afking his troops

[umbral flame]

arbiter is not anti t3, even slightly

the idea of this was a unit that functioned as effective anti t3, it has similar dps to snipers, while having shorter range, a 30% higher metal cost, and no ability to cloak, and people are complaining that it is slightly more effective against spam than the starlight

slightly

i would say its still somewhat underpowered tbh

[sharp stone]

we could just add it to the addition units pack, if it is ok with the devs

[simple ermine]

I'll help integrate it there later on

[drifting plume]

2 ticks in difference, 20 tick vs 5 starlights, star kills 10 while deadeye same numbers kill 12

[sharp stone]

Somehow the back of my head didn't stop...
Now I know why the name penetrator came into my mind.

It has a red eye on the left side, too.

[terse scaffold]

it does not need to be at the same power level as snipers and starlights. It just needs to be a cost effective unit at its niche. I am actually for it being weaker than snipers and starlights because it adds to faction asymmetry, with arm being better at dealing with single targets while cor is better at dealing splash damage. They would still have units that can fit those other niches, but they are not as good as the other faction's equivalents because they are not this faction's specialty

[umbral flame]

being weaker only adds to faction assymetry in that one faction has worse units. I personally was in favour of making this unit have even longer reload with even higher burst, that's a way to differentiate it, while also being very 'cortex'

but if the unit just offers less for more metal, then its just a worse unit

ideally, all units have a similar 'power budget' for their tier, which is spent on various things, if a unit gets less for the money than another unit, it has a lower power budget, thereby being underpowered

[simple ermine]

fewer shots with more damage and splash is actually a dps nerf in reality, especially without 'non-stupid' targetting, even if not smart

longer reload -might- be okay with the burst mechanic, as it's mostly hitscan, but unsure

one way to differentiate it from the others is also to make it do less damage but more frequently, which the burst nature somewhat does

[umbral flame]

this would make it more effective anti spam, which might be good for cortex, but doesnt fit the intended role of the unit (as originally described)

[terse scaffold]

one faction having a worse unit is fine, because it can have a better unit somewhere else. For example, i would argue that sumo and fiend are much better units than welder and sprinter. Doesn't mean i want to ask for a welder buff (i do want to ask for a sprinter buff but that's a different topic), just that faction balance shouldn't be measured on a unit-by-unit basis. i instead advocate for labs being balanced around each other

[umbral flame]

that's half true

i would argue that the welder is a very effective unit in it's niche, fits it's power budget very well, as dooes the sumo, that the sprinter deserves a buff, and that the fiend is blatantly overstatted and carrying the cor bot lob

[simple ermine]

it would be a sniperlike unit still, and could just have less delay than the others, with less damage per shot. role is still the same but less chance of them all going on 10 second cooldowns per tick entering sight

[simple ermine]

sumo costs a little too much to shoot, and -might- be too slow, but no argument fiend OP

core have like 3 good units carrying the whole circus

[umbral flame]

yeah, thats the other half of them being very 'cortex', needing babysitting to be effective ^^

im not saying thats a good thing 😛

[simple ermine]

exactly, and that's what we have to get away from for balance parity

we've hit the point that the faction is literally defined by being a bloody liabilty to play
this is a mistake

[umbral flame]

i still like it as a way to differentiate from the sniper/starlight, but i can also understand the frustration

spam is kinda a while issue, and generally hits one faction harder than the others, particularly at lower levels of play

[simple ermine]

the labs need to be balanced against each other not just in ability but in apm to use / achieve comparable results

currently core completely fail that everywhere north of T1

[umbral flame]

fiend is very easy to use, though harder to use optimally, just needs its numbers adjusted a little
sheldon too is very simple, as is the tiger
arm just sits in that sweet spot of reward/effort for mid level skill players

at very low levels, 'just make tigers and send them' is very effective, they have great stats when they arent being outmicroed by bulls/snipers/starlights

[simple ermine]

until the bull count / splash stacks up, yes they're better value for the metal

fiend has some nice design touches to it that core should use moreso, it's just a shame it's all on one unit

[umbral flame]

i just dont think this is the unit to fix the spam problem with? give cor some other interesting ways to deal with it, and make this one a cool anti t3 specialist, is all im saying

[simple ermine]

eg core is meant to be 'disposable', and the only unit that actually is that is the fiend. everything else costs the earth to arrive late to the war (and be picked off from other side of the map)

no, I'm not saying it should be a long range disco ball, just that cranking the interval up 'as it's core' risks digging the hole deeper

however the way I worked around it with siegebreaker can't be replicated here, so unsure what to suggest as the solution, aside from just don't overcrank

[umbral flame]

not just because its cor, but because its cool ^^

i think it would even be interesting to give it a very long range with that, but that might be too much, so i can only dream ^^

[simple ermine]

once it's in game it can be tweaked moreso for testing if need be, so would be viable to find out

I'm not saying you're wrong btw, but this is the whole trap that core has fallen into

[umbral flame]

thats true

i just like the idea of a group of them forcing thors to engage or risk getting picked off one by one by pew pew pew volleys from huge range
without the aoe and with super long reload theyd only be effective against high hp single targets, unlike sniper/starlight which are kinda good against everything

id love to fix the spam problem, i do think its stupid, and it would help the game in a number of ways

[umbral flame]

have you got the updated stats?

[molten meteor]

just add it to the game i neeeeed it :p

its the missing part in my t2 cortex bot army arsenal :p

[drifting plume]

currently it is:

2700hp
900m cost
20000e cost

dps 237-475 (2850-5700 burst (x shot 950 -1900)
range 850
reload 12 seconds (10.5 since the last shot fired)
speed 40
LoS 500
e/shot 800
turret turning rate (300) presumibly very high
360° rotation of turret
(just discovered that crushes t1 walls not sure if keep it or change it however the crushing blocks as legs might be the explanation for it)

i have been playing some games with it and feels solid against the AI especially with the mammoths doesnt seem to suffer much from spam, havent been able to test against t3 of the AI either because they get killed before or because they killed my energy with sneaky stuff and it wasnt able to shoot (meaning i got killed before t3 phase), but again its the AI even if it is hard barbarian, pvp test are needed for better feedback
but as you have seen it the thor test they were able to kill the thor pretty good

[sharp stone]

In a 1 v 1 use
/cheat
/give 2 armthor 1
and off you go.

[drifting plume]

yeah i was thinking of doing something like that

i wanted to see it with all the building and eco

[sharp stone]

But realistically you are at 90-99% of the possibilities we can accomplish with PvE anyways.

Just give the ppl what they want and we will have more input 😉

[drifting plume]

when it will be in the extra units we will test the hell out of it lol 🤣

[umbral flame]

thanks very much 🙂

[dense elm]

Speed went back up?

[burnt heart]

Looks cool. I realise development of this is a fair way down the road. I was thinking it would be a cool unit that converts into a Tower Defence and perhaps elevates to gain LOS and maybe radar but obv loses mobility - it could then convert back but takes 5-6 seconds. The legs look they would dig into the ground and then lift up the core laser. Could be a cool concept! but realise not the intention for this unit.

[drifting plume]

tought about it but "deploying" mechanics has to be avoided i have been told, so its not possible

[dense elm]

Sumos fit really nicely inside dragon's teeth, you can put them slightly out in front like that. Close enough

They're basically towers

[quartz solar]

@drifting plume will you be able to put it in the extra units pack (not sure if there, there are just bunch of kitbashed units) or release candidates? I am looking forward to testing it 🙂

[simple ermine]

extra units first, even if just for tuning

RC is 'loaded' unfortunately, even if it does make sense for certain units to go there

so most new units start in extra then migrate if applicable

[burnt heart]

the question is when?

[thick flax]

Looks like there isn't a pull request open.

[thick flax]

Have you or do you know how to open a pull request?

[simple ermine]

I thought he was working on the animation currently

[thick flax]

Do you know how to get it added to build lists in extra units pack via modoptions and alldefs(this one might be wrong)

[thick flax]

I did see him posting about it in the animation section.

Might be "good enough" for now and get animation fixed later. Right now it looks servicable to me.

[simple ermine]

yes...

I already said I'll help him package it when applicable

[drifting plume]

hello people i have been a bit busy IRL so things are going slower but yes i am working on the animation,

@thick flax i have no clue how to do the pull request however i have been told to improve the animation before putting it in so ill worry about the pull later on, but on my game i have moved it on the extra units rather than the main game factory build options as it was

i am working on it (animation) tho i am struggling a bit animations has alwasys been my weak point 😅 (i am also backing up every animation i do so no losses in case the old was the best)

@simple ermine my repo is still the old working animation altho it is in the main factory build options there and need to be moved to extra (did it already on my devbuild now), wanted to update it when i am sure there is an improvement on animation,

personally to me it could be considered ok to start the testing if the moment to applicate it comes before i improve it (but **absolutely **need to change it in the repo from main to extra), keeping in mind that will need fixing at some point otherwise it will be unfinished, altho i wanted it to be as ready as possible before it goes in.

[simple ermine]

in an ideal world it's probably best to try to sort the animation first if you can

[dense elm]

I support the pr-on-first-commit mentality -- otherwise people can't know what you're doing and can't help you to do them

but I understand that's not how many public repos want to do things, and ig the animation toolchain is just far enough outside that feedback loop anyway

[simple ermine]

for technical stuff that can help, for visual not so much

[spiral fiber]

How's unit coming?

[thick flax]

Me want new unit ooga booga

[thick flax]

OOGA BOOGA??

[tulip kelp]

Ooga booga is right

[quartz solar]

What is Ooga booga?

[thick flax]

ME WANT NEW TOY OOGA BOOGA

[quartz solar]

right, @drifting plume how is it going with this awesome unit? 🙂

[tulip kelp]

I want : (

[olive delta]

#1228744082466144287 message
Your thoughts?

[terse scaffold]

Have you seen https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1155024346381828176?

[olive delta]

Yes; wasn't Banisher supposed to be the Starlight counterpart?

[pearl moss]

what if you make something like long range gatling railgun gun, that shoots stuff like t1 armada fast units blitz for eg, just far away? it will look awesome and it will be in cortex style, but dunno how to explain it except for high speed low mass bullet that flies far but hits weak, thats where gatling part comes in - high rate of fire, long range (700-900)

or make it a vehicle

thats just an example

we have mammoth bot already, so we need a vehicle

[thick dome]

Machine Gun looks good on legion 🙃

[pearl moss]

I believe cortex is either explosives or rate of fire and vehicles dont have rate of fire single target unit

leave snipers to arm

lol

fast, long range, high rate of fire, medium dps, low hp

or slow but high dps

dunno there

but theres something missing with t2 cor vehicles, when arm got theirs jaguars, cor got only salamanders but their range difference is huge...

[terse scaffold]

the range on the website is for the AA, their main weapon range is substantially smaller

[thick dome]

Honestly I think adding another big vehicle to cortex t2 is one too many. There already is tremor, tzar, banisher, whereas armada only has the starlight in that category.- like the siegebreaker idea is interesting but might be excessive - its a good unit to have exist tho

[velvet tendon]

I respect the passion your put in to explain this stuff to us

I didnt even read it all lol

[simple ermine]

core -should- have stronger and better vehicles than arm though. right now you have arm with far too much powerful and long range stuff, while core has short ranged, slow moving, and slow shooting. arm breaks their faction design at will for that sort of thing

[quartz solar]

Imo the way Hornet created the Siegebreaker is cool and is different enough from arm. Truth is that Cor’s options in vehs will be much more extensive at that point, perhaps another vehicle should be added to Arm veh - I feel like they have very few units to play with. But honestly I dont think Cor vehs are weaker than arm, the Tiger and Tzar are really strong ( compare Tzar to Fatboy - the comparison is jist rediculous Tzar wins with aprox 52% hp left and is faster for just 200 more metal)

[pearl moss]

I think they should buff fatboy - make his aoe and damage 30% higher, at least looking at the size of the barrel lol

[simple ermine]

all the arm veh fill a role very well though, mauser possible exception lately

tzar is strong situationally, as a MBT it's basically useless at killing enemies, tigers are the main tank for core, yet bulls are tankier with more AoE. tiger is nice if you can exploit a breach though, but usually, you die before you can get close & just dump the metal on their doorstep

vanilla game, core T2 veh lab is basically always considered worst lab in the game, for good reason unfortunately. also fatboys are bots and will always be weaker than veh equivalents.

[thick dome]

I wouldnt hesistate to say balancing buffs and stuff are needed for the units. When I look at the unit dmg numbers and stuff- I definitely get explanations for why certain units are considered bad lol

[quartz solar]

Why do you say Bulls are tankier than Tigers? Tigers have more HP than Bulls, which is bizzare, but Bulls have other benefits (AOE). Nonetheless Tiger is tankier right?

[thick dome]

I guess bulls feel tankier- I was kinda surprised when I learned it myself

[simple ermine]

the range, aoe and dps make them effectively better in most typical engagements vs tigers

[quartz solar]

True, I mean as per the cost. I have been playing with the two and if you have low number Tigers win per metal, if you have large namber the Bulls win. I would say these two are ballanced well at the end. For me being "tanky" though means HP and perhaps size per that hp (taking fewer shots)..

[velvet tendon]

"as a MBT it's basically useless at killing enemies",huh?

[simple ermine]

tzar is incompetent without manual firing

[quartz solar]

for me Tzar is actually more arty than mbt

truth is cor really needs the Siegebreaker and Deadeye asi single target shooters in each lab. I love how those units are so different from their counterparts in arm labs. Kudos to Hornet and Kaludjo!

[sharp stone]

I know it's a different topic, but will Junos and their missiles build faster in the rework? Because stunning that one Sneaky Pete earlier and cheaper will open the window for Tzar pushes a bit wider.

[simple ermine]

they're cheaper, time likely not as juno spam is bad, even if the juno is less wrong

[sharp stone]

Kk, makes sense.
AoE and the time the effect lasts better stay untouched, too since it will take a whole lot of effort to estimate many changes at once.

[tulip kelp]

@drifting plume thoughts?

[spiral fiber]

Is this unit in game yet, as extra unit or rc?

[spiral fiber]

sad

[quartz solar]

I didn't hear from @drifting plume for a while now unfortunatelly :/ hope he is ok and still with us

[sharp stone]

I hope so, too!

I still have the files at least... So his work can live on.

[native eagle]

I try using Siege Breaker but IMO Cor didn't need this unit for their veh lab at all when Banisher already exist (Can't we just buff this thing?) but instead SB would be more useful for Their bot lab which very lack in long-range high DPS options (while Sheldon is quite good but they need certain mass to be effective and like most bots problem where they're so vulnerable to AOE weapon.) I think Cor Veh need something similar to Razorback than Starlight. While their Bot need units like SB to counter something like Fatboy.

[simple ermine]

banisher is a very different unit

and bots have both arbiter and sheldon

[native eagle]

If the ideas of SB is to attack enemies from long range with single high power shot I can't see what make it different from Banisher other than it can't shoot air and while Banisher does have AOE but it's so small to consider using them against mass of low HP units.

Sheldon have low DPS and need large numbers to be effective but can easily get shot down by single shot of Fatboy (which have longer range) and Arbiter are the worst against moving units (It can't even hit moving Juggernaut) IMO that make the role of both units seem far different from SB when compare to Banisher.

[simple ermine]

banisher aoe very much matters

[quartz solar]

IMO both Siegebreaker and Deadeye are very much needed (so both Veh and Bot lab)

[sharp stone]

Please check the stats of the units before you claim things.
Fatboy damage 900
Sheldon health 940
And Sheldon outrange fatboys by 200

A Banisher has very very very low DPS/m, too.

[native eagle]

Single shot from 2+ Fatboy still able to kill numbers of Sheldon anyway due to it AOE.

[sharp stone]

@simple ermine
Do you want to include it the unit into the extra unit pack?

[simple ermine]

I can't see a reason not to

[sharp stone]

Nice.
Shall I send you the files?

Must search for them... Friday could work out.

[simple ermine]

or damgam, I have a lot to juggle already

[sharp stone]

Like always 😉.

[simple ermine]

I can give it a balance pass once done though, iirc it was dartboard dialed before but no idea what numbers were left at now

not that scav unit balance is the most precise of sciences, so ballpark is likely close enough anyway

[sharp stone]

Will search for the files and tell him to add it when I find it 😁.

Yeah it basically was balanced around:
Should be ok against spam, should do serious damage and have a long reload between the bursts.

But I never played it against humans. So it might very well be overturned.

[quartz solar]

Thanks god for you man, I though it was lost since @drifting plume disappeared :/

[thick flax]

I also have a copy of the files that he sent me a while ago so I can learn how to model

I think it might have been right before he started trying to polish the walking animation

I didn't post them because I didn't have his express permission to do so.

[sharp stone]

@keen trench
Hi Damgam,
I don't know if you are aware of this project, so I'll do a fast recap:
We (Kaludjo mostly) made a Core bot that is supposed to be the unequal equivalent of snipers.
Hornet now said it could be included into the extra unitpack.
If it is OK for you I'd like to ask you if we may do this and how to do it 🙂

[keen trench]

Pull Request Welcome

[sharp stone]

Kk, thx!
I will make one tomorrow.

[keen trench]

if you want to add the unit to extra units build options, there is a file in gamedata/alldefs_post.lua, look for things that look like that. there's also another one in gamedata/scavengers/unitdef_post.lua which does the same, but to _scav versions of units

[sharp stone]

Good to know, should it already be included to scavenger units?

[thick flax]

Merely existing in the game will be enough for the scavengers to create a scavenger variant of it

There's a few other things that us scavenger dudes got to do to make them act right but

To help you narrow down where to add in the unit in extra units pack, search for "armbotrail" in that script

That would be the pawn launcher which is only added to build options if extra units is enabled

[quartz solar]

Once in Extra units pack, if people like it, is there a chance for it to get into the main game? I would love to see this in the roster 🙂

[thick flax]

Extra units > release candidate units > main game.

Could take months unless the game design team recognizes its importance to add

[tulip kelp]

At this point I prefer playing with extra units just to get more roles fleshed out in the unit roster

[signal talon]

i dont think cortex gets t2 vehicles in extra units tho? or wait they get heattigers or something right?

you get popup t2 turrets wich is pretty nice

dont know why they arent in game honestly

i dont really play with extra units very often because some of the stuff is a bit much especially t3 air and pawn launchers, i thought about making a tweak that only implements the stuff that is a bit higher in quality like the assimilator the t2 popup turrets and so on

[sharp stone]

@keen trench
made a pull request
Deadeye #3546
I tested it in a skirmish game, it seems to work fine.
It still needs a tactical icon, though. Where are these icons assigned? -> found it will just use the armsnipe.png, if this is OK with you and @simple ermine -> shall I copy it or literarily like the same symbol?
@thick flax
I searched for armbotrail and added cordeye everywhere I could find armbotrail.

[simple ermine]

balance pack is a good middle ground to gaps filled without full fat everything / meme units

next version released very soon I hope, today if I can get changelog updated

[keen trench]

why did you add cob and bos into 2 folders?

seems like you're using the ones in Units

wait

oh no

you added the same unit twice

oh no

why

WHY?

@sharp stone

the PR looks good otherwise

You should keep the one in Scavengers folder

as that's where all the extra units land

but not the other one

If it ends up being considered into core game, it can always be moved over

[sharp stone]

kk

[keen trench]

It also seems like you already assumed the one in Scavengers folder is the right one

looking at which unitname you mentioned everywhere else

[sharp stone]

i will delete the ones in the non scavanger path

[keen trench]

because the one in normal folder is cordeye, and the one in scav fodler is cordeadeye, and i only see entries for cordeadeye in places

yea so just do that.

and i'll merge this

[sharp stone]

well i was rushing to rename it because it was mentioined that cordeye was already taken 😉

[keen trench]

haha

it's fine

not too bad for your first unit PR

feels like you ticked all the boxes

[sharp stone]

i will tidy things up, tomorrow.
got to go soon.

I ticked most of the "first time accidents", too 😄

[keen trench]

no rush

[thick flax]

Couldn't be any more excited!

[dense elm]

This is such a good addition. I hope the "blaster" styling catches on just a bit, too, both the fx and the burst-fire

[sharp stone]

@keen trench
I worked through the Files now.
I think I got everything, now.
If I failed: please tell me what to do 😉

[keen trench]

Let me take a look 🙂

LGTM 🙂

Merged

[sharp stone]

🥳

[thick flax]

Woooooo new toys!!

[keen trench]

poke me if you find any bugs with it

[sharp stone]

Poke me, too😉

[sharp stone]

Any first impressions?

[thick flax]

Ain't got that far yet. Just woke up to the good news.

[sharp stone]

😆👍

[sharp stone]

Any news?
I am curious 😉

[shadow epoch]

The post's name describe them as burst T3 counter, but they seem very good at killing small group of ennemy like vehicles and T2 bot
(tested it vs IA, so i don't know if DeadEye are OP or not)

with the burst fire, Deadeye dont seem to have the same weaknesses than SharpShooter : Deadeye can handle pretty well cheap units if they are in small squad
meaning they need less support vs spam units

(not a BAR's pro, so my feeling about the Deadeye is maybe irrelevant
but i've been following this post for long ago and was very excited to testing the Deadeye, so here i am)

[thick flax]

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/4080758c8aeca894e0d428ad4c4cc22dac672501/units/ArmGantry/armraz.lua#L4
burstControlWhenOutOfArc = 2
That will make it so the burst will continue blasting in the direction of the turret in between turning between targets

If it's still working too effectively, decrease AOE or decrease turret turn rate in the animation script.

[sharp stone]

Good Idea
Do you know how to include Stavanger/extra Units through tweaks?
A simple addition to the lab build list doesn't work. It seems as if BAR can't find extra units without them being included.

[thick flax]

You put it in the scavengers folder so the Lua script doesn't get loaded without extra units enabled

[thick flax]

Bingbong

You can force load all units in the lobby options to make everything load but that probably isn't what you're looking for

Yeah that's what it is

Example: https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/6fa2414c9822c6db4e9325443ff511c405246280/units/ArmBuildings/LandDefenceOffence/armshockwave.lua the shockwave is part of release candidate units so it is always loaded.

[keen trench]

there's pretty much no harm in loading all units other than a tiny bit more RAM usage and a bit longer loading.

if there was harm in that, we wouldn't be doing it in scav games

So if you want to use anything extra via tweakdefs, just toggle that as well

[signal talon]

btw you forgot to add commander damage to the unit, propably should do that at some point

sharpshooter does 1000 out of 2500 damage to coms, deadeye deals full damage so theyre way too good at it

[sharp stone]

thx for pointing this out.
I am already working on a better balanced version. The com-damage will be part of it. I'd say we can try the same com-damage per metal and second as a starting point. So 1000/10/680 = 0,147 -> 0,147 * 12 * 900 = 1588 per burst. given the fact, that it is a laser weapon it should be that nubmer at about lets say 70% range so 1588/0,7=1111 at max range and 2222 at min range. so let's just say 750/375 per shot. Does that fell right?

Further ideas are:

1. simply raise the cost
2. give them less range
3. narrow their retargeting angle to 5-10°?
   what i want avoid is
4. lower their DPS too much (because it is a DPS unit)
5. make them too good against spam/sharpshooters per metal.

please post your thoughts here.

[signal talon]

i think its a good idea to let them have more Burst DPS then sharpshooter but less retargeting capabilities

the fact that theyre more expensive and allso easier to hit should balance things out

[wet mirage]

love working with them so far. fill a nice niche for cortex bots that I'm enjoying.

usually its armada for snipers or starlight and this is a pleasant alternative

[stable igloo]

is deadeye in release candidate units or Extra units pack?

[sharp stone]

Extra

1. Put this in the tweak units:

LS0tdeadeyepatchCi0tRW5hYmxlIERlYWRleWUKewoJY29yYWxhYiA9IHsKCQlidWlsZG9wdGlvbnMgPSB7CgkJCVsxOF0gPSAiY29yZGVhZGV5ZSIsCgkJfSwKCX0sCn0

2. Click 'load all units' option underneath it.

3. have fun 😉

[stable igloo]

What does this tweak do?

[simple ermine]

adds deadeye

[stable igloo]

Hmmm, I did a skirmish last night with just the enable extra units pack and it was there without the tweak units stuff

[simple ermine]

extra will have it yes

[signal talon]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C61euiH9CoAKS2cvfF8rJJACO7IioVgrtRDRJ38wrio/edit?usp=sharing
you can try this too, only very limmited amount of experimental units added, its more of basegame experience
currently experimental units has some broken things like epic comando and t3 air

[signal talon]

cordeadeye = {
weapondefs = {
cor_canlaser = {
damage = {
commanders = 1000,
},
},
},
},

this means deadeye deals 1.5-3 times the damage to a commander that a sharpshooter deals depending on the range

right now it deals allmost 3-6 times

[sharp stone]

I have it tuned down to 665. That means it does the Same damage at max range like a sharp shooter but more on shorter distances.

Right now I am desperatly trying to make it less OP against spam.

[signal talon]

is that live allready? i have looked at github and didnt see any commander damage

just asking because we might use this unit in a stream and i wanted to avoid it being able to insta kill commanders on stream

[sharp stone]

They aren't live, yet.

I'd consider raising the cost, reload time or make it a double burst (with the same total damage) to make it less OP.

[signal talon]

no worries i just use my own tweak then with 1000 com damage. and we have had some pretty unbalanced tweaks in our lobby before i dont think this one will be an issue.

[sonic otter]

It's funny because the creators intent was something which could deal with small amounts of spam.

Makes sense it may have been overtuned in that area though.

[thick flax]

it was featured in a brightworks stream today

[signal talon]

yes i nerfed its damage tho

down to 1250 per shot just because it was the easiest way to get it playable quickly

still felt pretty good to use but it got hard countered by starlights

[sharp stone]

It was meant to be OK against spam, true.
We talked about the different possibilities.
Something that was not taken into account enough is the retargeting because of bust fire.
Additionally the 12 sec reload for a triple burst means it has a 4 sec reload per shot. Starlights have 4.7 and costs about 30% more.
That alone is too good. Full stop.

The fact that it can retreat because it is a bot and that the burst means it shoots 6 shots in 13.5 seconds makes it even better

We are working on a balanced version.

[sharp stone]

@simple ermine
The pull request is ready to be merged from my side. What are the next steps?
4 eyes principle would be appreciated, else: merge request?
https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/3641

[simple ermine]

from very brief scan it looks good, I can't test it right now, but do a PR and I can grab it from there. Damgam will have to give it a once over before merge also

you did add reference to an icon but no icon file looks present

[sharp stone]

interesting... it is from the sniper...

i will test it... this one thing i thought would work 100% 😄

[simple ermine]

ah if it's a direct clone of the sniper one then that's fine

[sharp stone]

is it normal to do that?
or should I just copy the file? it almost seems as if at least most units have their own icon even if it is very similar to the other factions icon

[simple ermine]

that's fine if it's reference to existing

[sharp stone]

kk

thx for being on top of this topic

[signal talon]

is this live in the game yet?

[thin creek]

Yeah, I know it was released in a buff state to get folks to play it ~ Thankfully, all the main points about the Deadeye being too strong seem to have been addressed here, hope you guys can dial it in to where either it or the Siegebreaker finds a balanced spot in the Core lineup.

I still have nightmares about the Deadeye's introduction state, though =p

[quartz solar]

Its not in the main game but could it be in the balance pack like the Siegebreaker?

[thick flax]

It's an extra units pack right now

And there is a mod floating around if you scroll up that adds it and it alone exclusively to the roster without the other extra units

[sharp stone]

Here are the changed stats.
some changes can't be done with a tweak alone, though

{
coralab = {
buildoptions = {
[18] = "cordeadeye",
},
},
cordeadeye = {
energycost = 27500, //20000
metalcost = 1050, //900
buildtime = 32000, //11700
explodeas = "penetrator",
selfdestructas = "penetratorSelfd",
selfdestructcountdown = 3, //5
turninplacespeedlimit = 0.65, //0.825
turnrate = 800.5, //111.5
weapondefs = {
cor_canlaser = {
energypershot = 1200, //800
fireTolerance = 1000,
tolerance = 1000,
damage = {
default = 1900,
commanders = 665, //1900
},
},
},
weapons = {
[1] = {
def = "cor_canlaser",
onlytargetcategory = "SURFACE",
burstControlWhenOutOfArc = 2,
},
},
},
}

use this side:

https://www.base64encode.org/

to encode to this

[sharp stone]

that's why they are still an extra unit 😄

[sharp stone]

not as long as it isn't in a balanced place.
And even then it is still a test

you need to enable all units first

[sharp stone]

@simple ermine
any time estimates?

[simple ermine]

trying to look atm, been a long day

[wet mirage]

double the energy cost of a starlight but the buildtime looks better.
it's also a big hike to the energy per shot; it bursts 3 ? so thats 3600 energy to fire on the 12 sec reload ? or is that 1200 for the 3 round burst ?

(starlight for comparison: energycost = 13500, metalcost = 1200, buildtime = 25700, energypershot = 1000, default = 2500, reloadtime = 4.7)

[simple ermine]

from what I could see it seemed sanely positioned yes

[sharp stone]

It should be 1200 per burst.

[simple ermine]

burst angle restriction probably needs effectiveness evaluation in real games

[sharp stone]

It does.

This change might be an overreaction, but I an fan of trying out the limits at the beginning.
If you start too slow, it will be set in stone for ever.

[sharp stone]

It is a bot with 40 movement... That is very strong in itself, compared to a starlight.

[wet mirage]

i understand we cant keep the utterly broken thing it is right now.
I do however love it in a way that I just cant seem to find for the siegebreaker vehicle equivalent

[sharp stone]

True, let's find a good place for it.
I hope this huge difference will make it interesting for ppl who think (rightfully) that it is broken in its current state.

I love the triple shot. It's iconic somehow.

[wet mirage]

while I realise this is homogeny; it's a homegeny that's needed.
in all honesty I kind of expected the dead eye to be a 'railgun' and to be the leigon unit instead of the railgun spider (arqubuss?)

my thought are that the unit belongs in the extra unit pack - where fun and homogeny can belong
whereas the vanilla experience does retain the faction distinctions

[wet mirage]

well; i'd say the defining thing when compared directly to the starlight is that it doesn't blow all it's near neighbours up

[sharp stone]

Welllllll..... This is going to change 😆

The self d will be spam contol

[sharp stone]

The e cost of Starlights is so low.... It's just a 10/1 ratio....

[wet mirage]

no; say it isnt so !
a 1000+ metal long range unit isn't a self-d candidate.

something cheap is;
something like the sumo is; being a tanky fairly short range unit

unless that becomes a general cortex mechanic. in general i hate self-d and death explosions.

walking a titan or especially a jugg into the defences so it can blow up rather than use its weapons is basically a f*$@-you hail mary.
(i notice this a lot more without evocom when a cmdr d-gun. The d-gun really should prevent those death explosions. it'd didnt die; it got disintegrated!)

[sharp stone]

It is a "I fucking hate that Ticks can kill everything, let's don't let 5 ticks kill 3 Deadeyes" self d

It just does 500 damage but has 600 range

So it blows up all ticks in the range of a commanders laser

[wet mirage]

it's got 3 bursts. 9 ticks shouldn't get within 900 range of 3 deadeyes ...

[sonic otter]

Personally not a fan of self d on this unit. The whole purpose of the burst fire in the first place was some sort of minor anti spam.

I'd rather see an llt slapped on top if that's not the case anymore than another unit I need to self d

[sharp stone]

It doesn't work that way anymore!

[wet mirage]

600 range ? that's everything nearby.
i think i will almost never use it unless it is literally "alone"

[sharp stone]

It doesn't have "magic aiming" anymore.

It has to point its gun at the target.

[sharp stone]

300 radius

[wet mirage]

why not ? overloading it with spam works for snipers; starlight and all the others.
if its due to retargetting .. fine.
but if it can't hit ticks thats not fair

[sonic otter]

Is the range still a good chunk smaller than snipers/starlight with these changes too?

[wet mirage]

i thgought range was still better than snipers; not quite as a good as starlight.. it was 940 ?
(damn need to go look at json again)

[sharp stone]

Not going to happen in BAR.

I'd slap 2 llts on the side of a tzar with 45° fire arc each. Because fuck ticks

[wet mirage]

i'd put the legion AA gatling gun on everything and just have it fire at every target. we've got some gameplay designs instead of "found an effective weapon platform; what can we mount it on?"

[sharp stone]

#🚂｜engine message

Look at the videos

[sonic otter]

Maybe it was increased, I seem to remember initially that with burst fire + more speed it was intended to have a somewhat lower range but with the added multi target ability.

[sharp stone]

The llts on big, slow tanks would very much be in line with MGs on real tanks.

[wet mirage]

the retargetting like that looks fine to me.
theoretically spam should still be come in from a single direction. at longer range that is a fairly small angular change.
so yeah; that 1st video looks much better than the 2nd 360degree random fire

[sharp stone]

The first one 's the new one.

[sonic otter]

Just looked back at old stats and range was 850 before idk if it's still the same now.

[sharp stone]

It didn't change.

More speed, less range, was and still is the idea.

It was meant to be something in between against spam regarding Snipers and Starlights.

I just hope Hornet and the devs are happy with the new version and we can merge it sooner than later.

[wet mirage]

im not really interested in how it handles spam tbh.
the fact it can is a bonus.

im more interested in how well it melts early t3 and lets me push through porc

[sonic otter]

I just watched the videos, that seems fine since spam is mostly coming from the front, I'm not worried about it being able to fight spam with a surround because it's too late at that point.

Did it change to shooting 10 round bursts at some point too instead of 3?

[wet mirage]

i wanted a cortex sniper bot effective against mobile targets
same as when amarda bots i want the static chewing rocket bot .. like i said it's all going to homogeny

[wet mirage]

the anti spam units remain the sumo or mammoth imo.
the mammoth being a grand solution that's just a bit too slow

[sonic otter]

Meh just because core and arm both have infantry units they're distinct enough. Same for t2 tanks, t1 and t2 bombers, figs, the entire navy, etc.

Filling the same role =/= homogonizing if they have distinct differences.

[sonic otter]

Yeah I don't want it to be the anti spam but just mentioning that one reason it had less range and no cloak was because it was supposed to be a bit better at not dying to spam VS arm counterparts

[sharp stone]

It was just to show the mechanic.

[sonic otter]

Ah okay, I'd be curious to see a test with 3 or 4 against a spam stream coming from one direction to see how it looks but I can wait until I can play with it myself.

[gloomy jolt]

yoo what is this unit

[wet mirage]

i sort of compared this to the assimilar or a razorback.
eying the early t3 units that could also utilize this weapon model.

(the assimilator may not look as good at first glance; but its 300% dmg v. air so it's a walking AA turret too.)

[gloomy jolt]

is this some extra units pack unit or something?

[sonic otter]

Tbh the the core bot lab already feels pretty meaty and as much as I like the deadeye it might still be too much in the lab.

I like this unit more than siegebreaker atm but it feels like core veh needs siegebreaker much more than core bots needs this.

But that's not really relevant to making the unit function/balanced.

[sharp stone]

I just hope it goes through and into the game, fast

[wet mirage]

yes. its currently in the Extra Unit Pack
cortex, t2 bot lab. "Deadeye"

Robert is proposing changes because the current unit is being tested and it's definitely a bit too good

[gloomy jolt]

but this unit doesnt get added to the core game in t he end ?

[wet mirage]

highlights that the banisher misses it's spot imo.
or that there is either a preference or reward for longer range + alpha due to the way humans play or engagements happen at those ranges

i love core vehicles for tigers. (and the t2 flak truck)
but the rest; meh.

[sharp stone]

@wintry willow
Pls pin

Copy the text inside the txt into the unit tweak and click on the load all units bottom beneath it

[sharp stone]

Tremors got buffed.

Try them, they are OK now

[wet mirage]

will do.
in general i prefer indirect fire assaulting abses/defences
not a fan otherwise. especially when the option is essentially "hitscan" weapons v mobile units

[sharp stone]

Well hitscan/fast projectiles are necessary against fast units.
The problem is the speed of ticks or the speed of the projectiles. A tzars bullet flies with a speed of 300 and a tick runs with 100... Crazy...

Imagine a gun firing bullets at three times the speed of a human.

[wet mirage]

imagine having a perfectly good weapon platform developed to fire effective against multiple targets and then .. trying to develop another one for each new tank or AA platform or static emplacement.

[wet mirage]

Imagine a gun firing bullets at three times the speed of a human.

crossbow ?

[sharp stone]

More like a water pistol.

[sharp stone]

That's why Core should slap llts on every tank

Arm slaps AA on every raiding unit, too. So why can't core get llts on theirs?

[wet mirage]

surely it should be a flamethrower 😛

[sharp stone]

^^ 😉

[umbral flame]

difference is, IRL you want your tank to be OP as fuck

in game, not so much

[sharp stone]

True.

But in game I don't know if I want to have problems against 5 Ticks with 5 super heavy Tanks... Funny thing is, that the problem gets bigger the more Tanks you have.

[sharp stone]

@simple ermine
can we merge the new iteration?

I want to go on with the top bar, you know 😉
And I don't know how to handl two pull open requestes on my PC

[simple ermine]

ask @keen trench to mash the button

[keen trench]

what button

you have to link me to the button!

[simple ermine]

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/3641

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-thesimpsons-appocalypse-end-of-the-world-destruct-button-gif-5035930710046240904

[sharp stone]

Your nightmares are over

[thin creek]

Glorious.

[signal talon]

the tweak is updated and i removed my damage nerf to the deadeye wich i had early on to make it more balanced

[tulip kelp]

Has there been any thoughts on the walking animation for the deadeye? The legs slide along the ground as it moves.

[keen trench]

Deadeye model in general is very low quality

it needs a better one

[arctic summit]

theres allso some issues with animations during firing sometimes, but thats normal behaviour in BAR, the cerberus allso sometimes shoots in directions it isnt actually pointing

[keen trench]

It's not "normal", it's just one of these bugs that need some hard work to fix yet is not game breaking enough to feel urgent...

[arctic summit]

its normal as in, not deadeyes fault

[waxen cedar]

I'm just worried with all these new Cortex toys, (filthy) armada is gonna want new toys too. An arms race, eheh.

[thick flax]

Burstfirewhenoutofcontrolarc = 2 will solve this, like the razorback has.

[sharp stone]

Video, pls.

It should be fixed.

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/master/units/Scavengers/Bots/cordeadeye.lua

[arctic summit]

oh sorry i didnt know its fixed for good now

i just saw the cerberus having this issue on isthmus recently so i assumed all units with burstfire still have this

[drifting plume]

hello there people 🙂 my apologies for the absence but i had RL stuff to do/fix sometimes there is not enough work sometime there is too much and sometimes there is just a mess everywhere lol, i am really happy to see that the unit moved forward even without me awesome job comunity im not sure you need me anymore lol 🙂 im still a bit busy so you wont see me that often

[tulip kelp]

Glad nothing bad happened to you @drifting plume!

[drifting plume]

Im good 🙂 dont worry i just have been busy a bit too much

[drifting plume]

@simple ermine @sharp stone @thick flax

i have collected all the unit files in this archive it was the last definitive build before i started fiddling with the animation, idk if u edited much from that point but in case u needed all the files or something in them, not sure if im missing something if anyone want to work on it or improve it feel free to, even to give it a new model or remake animations 🙂 i will probably not be able to work on this unit for a bit so all files are here

[sharp stone]

I am back from my vacation, now.

We tried to keep everything as close to your settings as possible.

The unit was a bit OP, so we tuned it down a bit.

From what I have heard so far the biggest problem now is the chain reaction.

Thx for the files!

[molten meteor]

The idea is to have different factions. Better to buff core units that have a similar role than just make everything the same.

[velvet tendon]

Yeah,i kind of oppose the idea of adding this unit because:
-We already have mammoth
-It makes the factions more symmetric

[red cipher]

Id say Deadeye is fine

But we need to make it more unique

[keen moss]

Armada air unit got rejected stating they didn’t want to add more to base factions. I imagine this is the same?

#1295147137046155354 message

[thick flax]

It's currently in the extra units pack, correct?

[eternal gyro]

Both are iirc

From here on the best way to get unit exposure and test it is if Brightworks would feature them in a stream IMO

Which he does from time to time with units like that

[thick flax]

Grandfathered In before official stance on unit additions was stated. It'll stay in extra units pack for a long while I'd bet. That's just the vibe I get.

[umbral flame]

It would be nice if there was a way to actually test units from the extra units pack without having to play with all the extra bullshit. So much of it is just meme and for the lols, or downright unpleasant to play with (epic liche coughcough), and there is the occasional unit like the deadeye that are actually interesting, but you have to deal with everything else, meaning no one is going to seriously try it out.

If there is an actual option for adding individual units from it, please tell me.

[thick flax]

Unit tweaks, baby.
#1295147137046155354 message

The dude in charge of UI prefers not to clutter up with lots of individual toggles. I asked about that yesterday. Unit tweaks are the workaround for that.

[sharp stone]

#1220465920774897695 message

here is a link to a tweak that enables some of the exrta units. make sure to check the box in the settings to actally LOAD them. The Tweak alone won't find the units unless you load them 🙂 It's all described in the doc.

[tulip kelp]

Considering that the game design team has paused all new units being added, that means this will stick to being a part of extra units.

Does that also mean the unit is staying as is? Someone said it needed a remodel and correct animations but why do that if it isn't going anywhere?

[sweet marsh]

it can still be added to the extra unit pack if its good quality

[thick flax]

Good news! It is already in the extra units pack as the Deadeye.

[thick flax]

Boop

[sweet marsh]

cool, I guess that thread is don then?

[thick flax]

I suggest that we lock this one, and if somebody wants to get feedback to develop the deadeye further create a dedicated thread for the Deadeye.