#Feedback for "Proposed Unit Rework" Modoption (For Stilleto, Mauser, Quaker)

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

crisp mural
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Leave your feedback for the Proposed Unit Rework modoption Zecrus has made.
"The proposed_unit_reworks modoption reworks Stiletto, Mauser, and Quaker, and the modoption could be used in the future to test out other unit reworks.

  • The stiletto rework doubles their metal and energy costs, increases health by 30%, reduces aoe 240->160 and bomb count by 5->3, increases damage/bomb from 4000->6000 and paralyzetime from 10s->20s. The general idea is that the unit could be used strategically to stun key buildings or T3 units, but the increased price and lower aoe makes it worse as a general defensive option.

  • Mauser and Quaker reworks reduce their ranges by 130, but increases their speeds by 20%, health by 20%, and acceleration by 50%. The goal is to make their use much less passive, where the units will have to be used more aggressively which allows for more counterplay. This also helps to further differentiate their role from the other T2 veh artillery options."

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Feedback for "Proposed Unit Rework" Modoption (For Stilleto, Mauser, Quaker)

limpid grail
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20% more speed on t2 arty? wtf

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that's almost as fast as a bull

static solstice
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The increased speed lets it push faster, and it can close the distance with longer range units like sheldons. It still takes a while to turn around and can't fire backwards, so trying to push too quickly can backfire if the opponent counterattacks.

limpid grail
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mauser was already a acceptably fast unit

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at 61 speed if you see bulls coming with a radar los you can just turn them around and run lol

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the optimal play is to park them perpendicular anyways

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so 50% acceleration and 20% speed are very useful defensively too

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i think current mausers can already be aggressive. if you aren't challenged you can just charge them forward with their 940 range

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the problem is not them being passive it's that most shorter range units can't approach without taking a beating
for their range they are too good at hitting units IMO

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mauser: sort of kills everything with a bit of protection, cheap for it's range
ambassador: kills heavy porc very well (overkill vs llts) and can snipe idle enemy units, pretty terrible against a moving frontline, also costs a ton

ashen socket
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this rework sounds very op and I am excited to try it

civic onyx
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A Mauser running away is normally just bad micro or planning imo

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So don't think them getting speed is an issue given I could be wrong ive not played it yet

dawn viper
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Sounds like a Banisher buff. xD

restive ibex
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The cutting of mauser range is a good idea. Best to see how it actually reacts in a few replays first imo.

crisp mural
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Stiletto did not get a nerf in this rework either, it's role has been changed to be more surgical than general carpet bomber

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Its stun length got DOUBLED dude, it's fine

night plume
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The T2 arty change sucks

More speed, health and less range make it a more micro-intensive unit and better against units that aren't static pork because it can maneuver, chase, take more hits or run easier. It makes them worse against T2 pop-ups and T1 and T2 Plasma Arty. This is a step in the wrong direction.

Try leaving them exactly as is but with -30% weapon velocity, you can actually dodge their shots, they're not opressively strong against moving units but can stilla ctually take out Pork and area deny, i.e their primarly purpose

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Their range isn't the problem, the problem is that they hit moving targets WAY too easily.

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I think I see the idea behind this, like you have to commit deeper and pull out if the enemy looks like they're advancing and you can do that more easily with the speed and acceleration buffs, plus take some more hits. However what I've seen is people using them pretty much the same way, balling them up faster than the opponent and having a giant ball of death that nothing T1 can get near or even trade with, even if badly. In a lot of cases, where people micro them badly and don't have units guarding them this is a strait buff because the HP, they can just trade better with whatever is coming at them

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It also takes away from the uniqueness of T2 Bot Arty, their role is to be more mannerable in and out, let T2 Arty be passive, and just make them suck at hitting moving targets.

glossy yoke
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It was already possible to micro them that way before and with the longer range it was way easier to not lose them.
Now it's way better do to so then just F command them, so it forces player to use their mouse to micro.
The shorter range allow both bot labs to be played again, sheldons with longer range, no aoe, less damage and much higher cost and they can allow fiends to be on the battlefield again and not just get deleted by jags, much more balanced now than just having one lab able to dominate on every aspects.

night plume
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Fiends are not better against these rebalanced arty

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It is 'closer' in a fight between T2 arty and shledons but it's only 40 range, with that speed and acceleration sheldons are easy to catch

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It's a buff tbh

dreamy wigeon
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The differences between artillery and tanks needs to be increased, not decreased. Please don't do this.

maiden dragon
dreamy wigeon
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I think they fire too quickly as they are now, personally. I think an alpha buff combined with a proportionally-greater DPS nerf and maneuverability nerf would be appropriate. Basically the opposite of what this rework does. 😛

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Probably a firing angle decrease as well.

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Make it so that they're a specialized unit instead of the generalist they are now, and especially not like this rework. You'd have to support them or they'd die.

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mobile artillery being good at fighting is a good thing, they just need to be less of a do-everything unit.

glossy yoke
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i haven't tried them much yet but it's very likely the sheldons will dominate the mausers with the soyboys, veh player probably need seismic to be able to not just feed or at least have a lot of tick spam and micro very well

night plume
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It's not as good as you'd think, it's only 40 range and with the acceleration buff they're pretty easily caught out. Granted I only watched one game and the guy had his sheldons in a ball not in a line and they got murdered by like 3 shots but it doesn't seem great.

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Extra HP makes them harder to trade with too.

ashen socket
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literally nothing trades with mausers as is except t3 arti so I'd consider that a vast improvement

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mausers conditionally trading well into units that outrange it is... intended? so I don't know the point

dreamy wigeon
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I just think it’s the wrong direction from a design perspective. There are plenty of other ways to change them.

night plume
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They're better against T1 now by a mile, better at chasing down coms/other units, still outrange all T1 pork save for plasma batteries, easier to run from incoming forces if they are outnumbered/badly positioned and tade better if you just sit and fight. It's a buff against like, everything but sheldons? okay...

ashen socket
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It's a huge nerf because bots can do literally anything against them now. if you build sheldons or snipers rn you are straight up trolling

night plume
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Not against T1, which was my main point, gj ignoring it and trying to invaldiate my argument.

static solstice
night plume
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Killing T1 with them so easily and without trading at all is what's oppressive about them, there are ways to trade against them with T2 and this is better for that but it's secondary imo, feel free to disagree and I think your arguments are valid and not trolling btw. I just disagree.

static solstice
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One of the main differences I have seen with how mausers/quakers work with the modoption is that its much easier to get them into useful positions and easier to swap fronts, which I think makes the units more interesting, but it might end up making them much more effective when used aggressively by a skilled player

night plume
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Way more alpha damage, against less HP higher cost units.

night plume
ashen socket
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I mean that is basically just a description of hounds vs sheldons dynamic works, but swingier, and sheldons win against hounds 90/100 times with micro

static solstice
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From my testing it depended a lot on vision, since the sheldons have much higher accuracy they can take out mausers 1 at a time while a lot of mauser shots often miss. However, the random mauser shots can often hit support units like mobile radar/jammer/aa, which makes it hard to keep fighting with the sheldons

night plume
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I mean good players just see where the shots are coming from and fire into fog.

static solstice
ashen socket
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imo the worst think about mausers and quakers was not that they're op, op things can be fine imo (I am a proponent of op grunts). it was that they were boring and lazy. Only counterplay was teching and/or static arti, no micro needed, cheap and low risk, AND they were op. so even if they are better in this, it will be good because they will at least be more interesting

dreamy wigeon
# static solstice One of the main issues with the old design is that long range high spread artill...

I think that the current Mauser and Quaker aren’t specialized enough for their price, and that’s the source of the issues. Hence what I said earlier about making them more specialized. If they can’t reposition easily, you should get a dynamic where flanking the things becomes more viable. This should make them the target of flanks on the front. Attacking them head-on would be a mistake in this dynamic, but attacking them from the side would let you tear into them.

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TLDR, AmbulatoryCortex prefers maneuver gameplay to micro gameplay

static solstice
dreamy wigeon
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An inconsistent unit can cheaper, or in this case, the same but less oppressive.

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For promoting flank gameplay, I think what I’d want to try is reduced turn speed, greatly reduced firing angle, and reduced turret turn speed. Nimble range is Banisher’s deal.

night plume
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They don't need to be 'innaccuracate' They just need to miss fastish moving targets so they're good against pork consistently but bad against say light tanks charing up to them and dodging their attacks so they're not a massively mutli role unit that barely needs support.

glossy yoke
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The matchup is 100% decided by good emp bots micro, both for the vision to take out mausers 1 by 1 and to hit important emp.
If you see the matchup without the use of empbots it's not worth much

dreamy wigeon
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But right now they’re pretty nimble with a wide firing angle. Basically I’m proposing a nerf that makes them more specialized, rather than just worse.

glossy yoke
dreamy wigeon
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Incidentally, reducing their maneuverability and firing angle would make them more vulnerable to diplomats too. Which might help on both of those maps.

night plume
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Don't Remove it, just don't only balance for it, it's as bad to ignore it as much as to only focus on it. Do you really want every Straits player coming in and complaining that Arty is broken? (Too good or Too bad). And it'd be just as stupid to just focus on Flats and forests where flanking is much easier or Bismuth where it's a more ridged lane map with lots of terrain that blocks flanking. Or on just the balance of 1v1. Hence why balancing this shit is so debated the game is so different from mode to map.

dreamy wigeon
night plume
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I agree it's an annoying topic

orchid comet
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Take the ground to air relationship. There are many ways for ground to deal with air that can just completly shut them down. For sea there is not, no matter how far ahead you are you need an overwhelming advantage to captilize on these "anti-water" units

granite mica
# static solstice High alpha with high inaccuracy seems like it would result in outcomes that feel...

While you are tweaking the T2 arty, remember that armada and cortex don't need to get the same nerfs. While mauser might be made a more short range dynamic unit, the Quaker could be the opposite, made more tanky and much less agile more susceptible to being overrun.

Try some weird things, like Quaker indirect fire on higher trajectory/much slower shot travel time? That would nerf them, but completely differently to making their range shorter. Cortex already have Sheldon as a manoeuvrable long rage plasma option...

dreamy wigeon
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Cortex already has two high trajectory artillery in T2.

granite mica
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In vehicles they have tremor, which has its own issues and proposed solutions. Are you including the negotiator?

On more direct trajectories they have the current Quaker, banishers, poison arrow and tzar. And the proposed siege breaker. If they are differentiated in other ways I don't see the issue...