Buff the termite & Sumo

[gloomy hornet]

literally if you make termite right now you are trolling. proposed changes:
Termite:

Range > 440
Speed > 56

Sumo: tiny buff

range > 280
speed > 50

[rain jolt]

sumo does not need a buff, it is very good at its job

and especially not a speed or range buff, that would make it OP

[twilit willow]

sumo is fine, termite has issues, the balance pack changes seem to offset it really well

[austere summit]

Sumo has the highest hp per M cost of any t1 or t2 unit in the game, to get better use out of that unit you just gotta figure out how to play to that particular strength, i.e. putting it in a role where it’s absorbing damage supported by an army composition with high dps but lower hp units

[stray crescent]

Try putting a few sumons front of Sheldons, nothing will get close to them

[tranquil bough]

Termite got buffed some weeks ago and the buff was to excessive that the unit immediately became more used /irony

[gloomy hornet]

did it actually get buffed?

it still feels miles worse than the recluse despite being significantly more costly, actual troll unit

[twilit willow]

it had small nudges

my balance pack termite is solid though, try that for comparision

[gloomy hornet]

balance pack?

I imagine it's problematic adding a ton of balance tweaks all at once though (a whole pack?)

[twilit willow]

actually past a point it's best to do so

lets people relearn interactions at once rather than constant trickle changes

[tranquil bough]

It is. I made my case back the but was told it's fine as is LOL.

[twilit willow]

not by me, most I'd have said was not to stack buffs too closely

I've been crusading for it to be worthwhile for ages

[tranquil bough]

In 2 years, maybe.

[final kettle]

While termite isn't great, I don't think there's a big need to buff it. The two factions seem to be balanced with cortex having better non-terrain options at dealing with cliffs in the arbiter, while armada is required to go and actually assault the cliff directly. The termite exists and is used as an option that does have all-terrain, but the arbiter is an undeniably amazing option for shooting over, under, and onto cliffs.

[verbal hazel]

Jesus, Community Manager Cly (CMC), putting in work over here.

[spice shale]

While this might be true I highly recommend looking at all labs.
ARM has a better Diplomat than CORE.

So.arm has a better anti terrain weapon when playing vehicles and has the better spiders and more options. And to be honest I have not seen Arbiters being cost effective against Spiders... So at least in my experience I would say termites need a buff.

[final kettle]

Well core vehicles has the tremor. It can go on and on.

Something that people have done in the past with core bots is to create nanos at the bottom of a cliff, and use a twitcher to build fiends on top of the cliff. This can be a powerful option to assault onto cliffs and isn't particularly difficult to pull off. It may not be right for every situation but is another thing I've seen people do (and done myself)

[spice shale]

Sorry I have to ask you:
Are you OS 50+, or what high level play are you pulling off? Please send replays so I can learn.
Because I have seen a Tremor being cost effective about 5% of the time and never seen it cost effective against Spiders.
So I really don't understand why these cases should have so much weight...
I am a person looking at how often stuff happens and as such I understand that your cases could theoretically be true... But I would argue that Spiders are OP in comparison to Termites.

[acoustic isle]

I was in a game last night were Tremors were used as a great deterrant on glitters by a clan_os person in the same lane as me (canyo). first game of the two. It was a max OS 25 game.

[final kettle]

Anyway I want to emphasize that it's alright for niche units to be niche. I think the last buff to termite was great in making it a little better, but at the end of the day it's just a unit you'll make if you really want something that can climb up a cliff and kill some stuff which isn't a scenario you'll be seeing a whole lot. Part of the game is making use of the options available to you in the labs you've purchased and determining your game strategy based on them. Not every lab will have a stellar option to respond to every scenario, and I don't think the core t2 bot lab is particularly lacking in options especially compared to the arm t2 bot lab.

[gloomy hornet]

literally I have never seen a termite used unless its trolling

just remove it from the game , remove the noob trap!

[verbal hazel]

Unevolved Monkey = Clyret = Fauna. He isn't as active now, but he's the #1 Teamplayer and #14 Duel player on the leaderboards: https://www.beyondallreason.info/leaderboards. He was/has been 60+ for months while only playing in the sweat lobby.

[gloomy hornet]

wouldn't it be nice for it to be at least sort of viable? it's such a cool concept

[verbal hazel]

Seagull killed me with termites on Koom actually. Game is hard.

[gloomy hornet]

spider with lasers, who doesn't want a laser spider?? it even costs a shit ton more than the recluse somehow

[random quartz]

termite counters arm spoders tho, like, onesidedly opop frfr

[verbal hazel]

Can't tell if trolling, I don't think I've ever had a recluse vs termite fight. Can't the termites kite over the terrain?

Because the rockets like follow the terrain

[gloomy hornet]

I'd imagine if you put them 2 feet apart from one another ,termite would win

[agile marten]

i think maybe termite counters the emp spiders xd

[autumn orchid]

search for replays
no data available
it's fake

[ruby valley]

Clyret probably still shows up as Waddler on replay site

[verbal hazel]

Yeah: https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?page=1&limit=24&hasBots=false&endedNormally=true&players=Waddler

[robust vapor]

clyret has some username conflicts then
its the same for me
you cannot really find any replays of me

[spice shale]

As I said:
It is not about one freaking game once upon a time. It is about every third game where recluses and Hounds have great value and termites just don't.

Fiends are really nice. But I think Termites are just there as an excuse. When the "serious" answer to all terrain Core is: "build twitchers and then build fiends to storm a hill" or "build units that take 7 seconds until their missile hits", then there is something off. At least in the eyes of an average Joe, like me.

[blissful basin]

termite is specifically for removing annoying cliff drops or suprising plp with bases above cliffs

[twilit willow]

that's assuming a nice clean cliff you want to climb straight up, rather than crossing say the walls in angel crossing. I would also say that if better option is just abusing build radius than using the actual all terrain unit, especially when other faction has a more versatile unit for similar role, that's an issue

you absolutely need competent all terrain units for that situation

termites nicer after the buff, but are still an elaborate cross country metal donation system comparatively

[gloomy hornet]

he aint wrong, take it from me, I'm an expert in donation systems

OS donation in my case 😦

[errant pond]

What do you mean better diplomat, negotiator has better stats than ambassador for leas metal.. if thats what you mean

[blissful basin]

yeah cor negotiator is a bit better than ambass

[still mango]

Can we get a clip of just sumos killing a jugg

[rain jolt]

I've gotten a surround on a jugg with only sumos once

It was on ascendancy

[errant pond]

I think Sumos are ok in terms of the stats. I just hate thier current design, because they cannot possible walk with the center of gravity and wide stance. I would like to see them reworked. Perhaps they could "walk" like C3PO 😉

[twilit willow]

https://tenor.com/view/r2d2-same-tired-star-wars-gif-13888503

[errant pond]

😄 he has 3 legs

[rain jolt]

they don't walk, they waddle

[errant pond]

true, better than what sumo does currently which just cannot work

[rain jolt]

sumo currently waddles...

[errant pond]

Ah, I didn’t know this english word 😄 thanks for teaching me something new!

[errant pond]

yes - so Sumo waddles exactly :)) I don’t think it would work in reality, would have to waddle a little more to overcome the cerer of gravity. Hence I think it would deserve a rework in terms of the model

[jovial fjord]

Maybe they could walk like Dungeon Keeper's bile demons.

[cedar bramble]

They could walk, if they had an internal gyroscope, but I think that would make their animation even more goofy looking.

[errant pond]

Right now it's just weird..

[austere summit]

Op reference

[fallen bay]

I don't think I've ever been in a situation of "Oh @#$&! The Sumos are coming!"

It's just, "Meh Sumos. I guess I'll just shoot them until they die.". Like a speed bump, just slows progress for a little.

Functionally I think they could use a little more range, to better keep ticks from getting danger-close. But thematically better if they had more HP, so they feel more like an imposing combat threat to deal with sooner than later (kinda like behemoth)

[subtle shore]

I feel like you're shooting the sumos, they're doing their job - that means you're not shooting the sheldons and arbiters. Their damage is really high up close, so they shred units trying to run through to hit the arty

[fallen bay]

**"Meh Sumos, I'll ignore them and kill whatever they are escorting, then shoot them until they are dead."

[errant pond]

you should not get through Sumos to what they are escorting. Man they have a lot more hp than e.g. Bulls

[still mango]

The problem is if you ignore the sumos then they get in range

[fallen bay]

that has only happened to me like once, when i was already at a substantial disadvantage and they coulda been anything

[fallen bay]

dont need to, just shoot over them. ie, pure sheldons beats sheldons + sumos. the opportunity cost of sumos means u have less ranged things, so unless u can force the sumos into a confrontation, u would be at a disadvantage

if the sumos go too far ahead of the rest of the army to zone, then they just get picked off

[cedar bramble]

What beats pure Sheldon is Sheldon + Fiend. Sheldons + Sumos is for beating Sheldon + Fiend

[still mango]

When playing core bots you have to use all the units together in the lab for maximum effectiveness the idea is to make every range very inconvenient and annoying for your opponent to engage at

[verbal hazel]

Sumos are units for when the engagement in unavoidable. Generally when the enemy is trying to push into you, or you are slamming into their base. They aren't skirmishing units, at all.

[gloomy hornet]

I do find that they are /so/ slow though that they can be difficult to micro infront of your army

[rain jolt]

don't need to keep them in front of your army, just close enough that you can retreat behind them when you get pushed

[verbal hazel]

Generally speaking, they shine when you are hitting enemy buildings, or the enemy is trying to hit your buildings.

[errant pond]

They would actually deserve some speed improvement - along with the design update so the walking makes sense. A faster C3PO :))

[verbal hazel]

I don't think any high-level players consider sumos weak. They are well-balanced units for their role: Tanky-Frontline DPS. If you start removing their weaknesses; range/speed, you run the risk of having them become overpowered.

I can't speak to FFA/1v1, but in team games there is generally a decent amount of sumo play when the situation calls for it.

[twilit willow]

sumos are fine

they cost too much to shoot their weapons, but that's about it

[errant pond]

the termite is definitely a better candidate for buff

[exotic basin]

sumos are garbage

I've never seen sumos have more impact than the equivalent in static defense, and yet they both serve the same role on the frontline

[austere summit]

Sumo drops are pretty good

[verbal hazel]

• I know one high OS player who doesn't consider sumos strong

[austere summit]

If it was less janky to unload multiple units from a transport I would Sumo drop more often

[verbal hazel]

Drops in general suffer from that tbh. Especially the T2 trans

[ruby valley]

Circledrag unload

[austere summit]

Ya that works for multiple transport dropping 1 unit each but not multiple transport dropping multiple unit

[ruby valley]

Use mammoth if ur in t2 transports

[austere summit]

Mammoth r better but sometimes Sumo is good stop gap

Also idk if t1 trans can load sumo?

[twilit willow]

sumo is a modular walking wall for when you can't afford mammoths

iirc T1 trans can

[ruby valley]

T1 trans can load welder and sumo

Which is why sumo and welder drops work cause of timing

[austere summit]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-nice-ruben-rabasa-i-think-you-should-leave-with-tim-robinson-amazing-excellent-gif-8388491916615493105

https://tenor.com/view/borat-borat-very-nice-verynice-thumbs-up-gif-25080066

[exotic basin]

use shift?

[austere summit]

thats what i currently do but the spacing between drops is quite difficult to be precise around

[exotic basin]

skill issue

[austere summit]

ya but then when you get spacing slightly wrong the transport defaults to a secondary dropoff location that's p. far from where u want it

so the skill issue kicks in the nute sac

[gloomy hornet]

kuchy based

[cedar bramble]

I have never felt oppressed by an opponent's use of Sumos or Termites. Have any of you?

[subtle shore]

Definitely not termites lol I think I've seen an opponent build them like twice ever

[twilit willow]

I did some oppressing once, with balance pack'd termites

sent a load over with a full thermite for firepower

[dreamy pawn]

From what I've seen termites easily handle recluses in the mountians

[subtle shore]

I'd give them a try but busy for the next two weeks so no BAR 😭

[spice shale]

Replays pls.
I have never seen it that way.

[dreamy pawn]

Hmmm.... I can try, its been awhile. You can see it most commonly on Glacial Gap

That top lane mountain ridge occasionaly turns into Recluse vs termites

[random quartz]

i can attest as the resident spoder abuser, termites r excellent into spodeurs

[spice shale]

Whenever I try to kill recluses with termites I fail hard. Even on a 1 to 1 ratio. On a 1.5 Recluses (they still cost way less e...) against 1 Termite it is just ridiculous. But I am no micro god. So I'd love to learn how to do it.
And even more important would be a replay with the tools ARM has against the tool CORE has. Because spiders exist and they reduce the risk of metal donations and they are quite useful and tanky. So a replay of Termites that win against recluses + spiders would be golden.

[twilit willow]

one thing I want to do is be able to get a game with some OP players, and cheat spawn X units for each, and evaluate that way. would be not entirely realistic but moreso than what I can replicate in offline mode skirmishes

[twilit willow]

from what I've seen termites will force recluses to kite or abuse terrain, so they can shove them back, but defensively eg trying to kill them while holding a hill themselves, questionable

[random quartz]

well, termites arent a defensive unit in the first place

neither of spoders are 2, and when they get chased by op termite they just kinda die

[twilit willow]

when you want to stop an area being harrassed by spideybois you often park a termite in situ

cliff edge/side abuse seems to favour the recluses, but I haven't seen this interaction since I moved the termite head
which should help that in theory

[verbal hazel]

Is that in base game or your balance pack?

[twilit willow]

base game

[tall quiver]

Termites are all terrain walkers, they eat arm spiders if they get to them which is the point no?

[tall quiver]

You get in close and recluses melt, ofc that's difficult but you can use terrain, which is the point of the unit

[cedar bramble]

I was just trying to raid over a cliff with Termites, and their vision is a problem too. It's one thing for salamanders or fiends to be nearsighted, they're fast enough to spread out and bump into things to find them. But with termites I couldn't tell where I needed to move them once I got them in the base.

[twilit willow]

they also can't shoot their full range iirc, due to low vision

[still mango]

That seems like it shouldn't work like that

[spice shale]

They are slower, have less vision and range than the unit that they are supposed to counter.
At their full range they have the same DPS while costing 1,5 times the metal. So their better HP/m doesn't really do much.

Long story short:
If the ARM player isn't sleeping, there is NO chance to win with them.

Even after the cost reduction.

[spice shale]

Regarding the can.

There was a time where it had a nice bonus...
It was 8% faster and had a thing....

@twilit willow
Do you know if beam drop off was a thing back then?

[twilit willow]

unsure

sniper resistant makes a lot of sense, shame it was removed

[still mango]

Hornet pack addition?

[twilit willow]

I can't add armour classes

would also bend it too much from enhancement unfortunately

plus loblobs are usually not as vexed by snipers as us mortals

[subtle shore]

What if the termite could build perimeter cameras?

That could be pretty neat to use them to get vision in mountains where radar sucks, and they could set up vision before going in on a base.

[tall quiver]

They are hitscan tho, arm spiders suck vs fast units, termites chew through chaff easily

[rain jolt]

Ah yes, the chaff that can climb sheer cliffs

[tall quiver]

yeah termites can only fight other spiders bro true they would never fight anything else

[rain jolt]

Why would you use spiders to fight anything else when you have better options. The point is that they are bad at their intended task

In a straight fight most of the time i would prefer to have a sumo over a termite

[tall quiver]

Their purpose is to utilize terrain to their advantage, they're a niche unit made for exploiting oversight in terrain.

[rain jolt]

Which, again, they are bad at, what with their slow speed and low sight range. You will see them coming way before they can reach anything critical, and you can hit them from outside of their vision range. As they are all terrain, they cannot bring radars or jammers with them

[spice shale]

I just love this 😆

There are always guys who think they know better than the whole player hood.

Let's see:
How often are Termites used in a game effectively? 1-3% of the time?

How often are Recluses used effectively?
10-30%?

Surely everyone is just stupid and there are no reasons for that!

[tall quiver]

U add alot to the discussion dipshit

[spice shale]

I did.

Normal reasoning doesn't work, so...

Just send replays...

Show me and all the players how it's done!

[tall quiver]

No you don't, you're just being a condescending piece of shit.

[spice shale]

You disqualify yourself through your statements.

It is a well known pattern for ppl who are not accessible to arguments to get angry. Attacking the person they disagree with is the cherry on top.

I am not here to fight. I want to have propper conversations. If you are willing to have a discussion based on real data and games that are happening more often than 0.1% I will happily join again.

But don't expect any answers to any personal attacks. It is all said with this statement.

[stark tiger]

What if termites were intended to be a hard counter to cannon-based artillery units? We can give them a very small radius and maybe even invisible plasma shield that deflects some artillery shots before going down.

So the counter play against a large group of mousers or Sheldon's . Make 10 or 20 termites and spread them out so they're deflected shots hit the ground rather than each other. Then use them to rush up towards the artillery.

The counter for a termite rush would naturally be anything that isn't Canon based.

This is intended to punish players who over invest in artillery.

Additionally, this would also make termites ideal for taking out pop-up cannons.

[twilit willow]

can people please try the balance pack termites and use that as a basis for discussion further?

[stark tiger]

...Yeah, you right. Get carried away sometimes. 😅

[errant pond]

Exactly, I think they are improved quite a bit there

[spice shale]

@twilit willow

Is there a way to implement a shield for Sumos and Mammoth that acts a bit like the T1 legion bot?

Cans lost their sniper resistance... They used to survive 3 shots, now they are down to surviving just 2 shots. Perhaps that could be a way to give them back this ability.

[twilit willow]

technically, yes, but would need scripting and isn't moddable

[spice shale]

Or we could invent a new unit: the face tank 😆. It's sole purpose would be to tank a few tachion beams without dieing.

[twilit willow]

behemoth arguably is that but it's hardly relevant until endgame

[spice shale]

We could mod the existing legion Unit and add the legion bot into the T2 Botlab 😉

[spice shale]

I meant a T2 unit that doesn't have 10000000 HP but it would have 3 shields and they would only be triggered by tachion beams. The shields would then need to be reloaded.

[twilit willow]

impossible to limit sniper/tachyon only without scripting

[spice shale]

Kk what a pity.

Would/could it make sense to include a "copied" sumo/any other unit with added shields in the release candidates pack?

[twilit willow]

too large a change probably, and would put people off playtesting

mammoths in theory are the walking wall role

T2 railgun bot on other hand does make sense as a role for cortex, but again would put people off

[errant pond]

Why do you think it would put people off? I think a similar unit to Sharpshooter is deeply missing in Cor Bot. Cor will have Siegebreaker on flat maps but on hilly, it will be lacking - we are just discussing that in this thread https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1220465920774897695

I would almost say that it exactly what makes Cor the weaker faction together with a bit weaker T3

[twilit willow]

I know. but I fix T3 with demon and people want to remove it again as it 'seems OP'. people are put off by seeing too much of any one unit even if that is the unit doing the job in the roster

people are put off of legion as 'too many railguns'

it's a very fine line between changes that are needed, and changes people will accept

it would be worth trying as a mod option, but not part of balance pack

[errant pond]

You know what that is right? Based on the player base of each faction, most poeple are Arm players so they complain when you add something good for Cor 😉

[errant pond]

You could add it as another Release Candidates for a while and see reactions

[twilit willow]

people are invested in status quo even if it's wonky

[rain jolt]

decoy behemoth

[twilit willow]

it'd need to be a unique unit for that and not a literal railgun, would be hard to find something unique enough without cloning something else

[errant pond]

Regarding Cor, I would not try to think of something crazy and just use a fast, tracking rocket, or just a tank-like shell. There are shells that do not explode really they are just made to penetrate

[twilit willow]

no it has to be hitscan
that means laser or rifle

retargetting rocket absolute worst

[errant pond]

and the shell?

[twilit willow]

anything that takes time means overkill and arm are the spam faction, so they just tick counter and all your shots go on ticks

try using more than one banisher and see how you get on

in reality it has to be sniper like I think

[errant pond]

I see, agreed

Though AP sheels fly really quickly. It would not be like the plasma balls now. It should reach the target almost instantly

[spice shale]

Gaus cannons... But that is ARM, too.

Core still has heat rays.

But this is nothing for this threat, I think.

[errant pond]

I thought Heat rays will be Legion, Cor has rather lasers. But I think sniper like unit, with AP shells would be most fitting the Cor
Gaus shells in the game are also too slow

[spice shale]

Korgoths/Juggernauts have heat rays. So do Termites and Salamanders.

[errant pond]

Korgoths? But yeah true

[spice shale]

It is the original name from Total Annihilation.

[verbal hazel]

Core T2 bots are generally considered much stronger than arm T2 bots, they don't need any buffs.

In terms of T2 strength I'd say it's Core Bots > Arm T2 Veh > Core T2 Veh > Arm T2 Bots

And that's even with an ARM favored map pool

[errant pond]

Are you sure? T1 buts of Cor were stronger because of Grunt, which has been nerfed recently.. But Cor T2 bots being better than Arm T2 bots does not seem right. Especially the Sharpshooter is really one of best units in the game..

[verbal hazel]

I generally only play in 25+ map rotation lobbies. I would say the most common faction/lab combination are core bots. Core T2 are just absurdly strong when properly utilized, and the lab also has unnerfed twitchers + spybots. Sharpshooters are also not considered strong units. They have their place, but have such brutal downsides they aren't seen as often, perhaps in part because of the weakness for other units in the arm T2 bot lab

[verbal hazel]

While the grunt/pawn changes help a bit, grunts still kite long enough that it's extremely hard to trade well into a player who can micro. If you watch the 5v5 Omega Series replays for PRO vs GGGN, Daywalker abuses my pawn opening with grunts, because I can never close the distance fast enough. By the time the pawns can trade back, they're already half health.

[errant pond]

I am watching your youtube videos 😉 You and Brightworks are my favorite. But to the topic - I agree, at first I thought the 6 speed diff was too much, but have the same experience as you - it is not that easy to win with pawns. I think it is well balanced now. Cor T1 bot is missing a scout though.

Regarding the number of players for each faction, it seems to me that 8v8 especially but after the grunt nerf also in smaller lobbies the Arm is played way more. Many people here also mentioned some statistics something like 75% of players playing Arm, but I do not know where they took those statistics. I think texture of Cor being so scratched and rusty might have something to do with it though as people just choose the prettier Arm. The truth is though, it is generally currently accepted that Arm is the stronger faction at the moment for historical reasons and changes are slowly and carefully introduced that balance the game. T3 is definitely stronger for Arm.

[spice shale]

My "statistics" are my observations. It might well be that I over estimate the percentage. But I think it is very save to say that there are more Arm players. At least in my lobbies it is very rare to see an equal amount of CORE as ARM.

I often frequently play or spectate lobsters and as I mentioned earlier I think they are not influenced by esthetics. I had a chat with a 50+ OS player. He said ARM vehicles are the best. No discussion there. Mauser + Starlights

[verbal hazel]

Keep in mind that % of players in a faction doesn't denote strength. Core bots are much more difficult to play well, but IF they are played well, they are stronger. Unlike a sniper wielder F move slow push. A core T2 bot push uses almost every bot from the lab, requires good detonations from fiends/spybots, good ground targeting with arbs, etc. In terms of metrics:

Here is win rate data from Borgking for 2023-03-01 to 2024-03-01, with core as red and blue as arm.

[verbal hazel]

Also thank you for the kind comments!

[errant pond]

Wow where did you get the data?

[verbal hazel]

Arm Veh vs Core bot is often player and map specific. I would argue that core bots have a higher skill cap and options for usability, and are theoretically better in that sense. Another point to raise is that 8v8s are the majority of team games, and there are so few solar maps. There are a ton of maps where I would prefer to play core, but go arm just to spam early wind. I think 8v8 only has Rosetta, Darkside, PoA and Koom for solar maps.

[verbal hazel]

From Borg_King

[errant pond]

Thanks @verbal hazel , @hidden hull is the data accessible somehow for common mortals like me?

[spice shale]

That's quite a cool graph.
I struggle a bit with this part though. An uncertainty of between 5% and 60% win rate for ARM at OS 45 sounds quite wide.

[agile marten]

there's like, 20 people at that high os so it's just player preference and not significant

[spice shale]

And a win rate to up to 120% for core is a bit on the high side, too.

[verbal hazel]

Borg King may need to comment on the exact details for it, but keep in mind that 45+ is a very small segment of the population: https://www.beyondallreason.info/leaderboards , so n is going to be tiny

[spice shale]

Sure, it still looks odd 😉

[verbal hazel]

While that's leaderboard OS, their real OS is only slighter higher

[spice shale]

Thx

[spice shale]

I can totally understand that.
I am a mere mortal and my APM is limited. So for me it feels like ARM bots and vehicles are better. Combined with the state of the Memerauders, Stilettos and Thors it is kind of hard to be a Core player by heart.

[verbal hazel]

Funny enough, demons terrorize high OS lobbies.

[spice shale]

It is... Demons are quite OK in my skill level, but Razors seem at least similarly good.

[errant pond]

There are many people alergic to hearing this.. but imho Razor does have the same role as Demon and is just as good 😄

[spice shale]

Well it was designed to fill the huge gap between the CORE T3 units.
It got a bit of AA because ARM assault units always have it.
It got quite fast because CORE was lacking something with speed.
So I think they are a bit like a Razor.

[verbal hazel]

It's better post BP nerf, but they are still very strong

[errant pond]

it's perhaps strongest Cor T3, but not better than Arm T3 units. And T3 overall for me without doubt better for Arm

[verbal hazel]

That's something that also changes depending on the lobby. For example Maras are seen as overpowered on Isthmus, but are perfectly fine in map rotation lobbies. Shivas are seen as strong in map rotation lobbies, but weak on Isthmus/ATG.

[sleek mason]

Volshok is too nice to say it's a skill issue

[spice shale]

It is.
I know that.
I have no problem with it.

@verbal hazel and anybody who is better than me:
Are there any videos in particular that you could recommend to watch and learn?

[verbal hazel]

I would actually say that everything you listed is strong on strait, and after demons lost amphibious, they probably aren't great on the map. So your viewpoint is correct in my eyes if your playing strait. I can do a replay review after the tourney, which is probably the best way for me to look at issues.

[spice shale]

That would be awesome!

Good luck for all your games in the tourney.

[hidden hull]

This was old data from back when OS 40+ was uncommon. I already said somewhere that I'll be updating this visual and integrating something that produces a regularly updated version of it for all players that want to look

[errant pond]

I think its not best but it does give some idea if one faction is substantially better than another. Thus far I was under the impression that Arm is simply better but Volshok somewhat changed that view of mine. I still think Arm has an edge but perhaps ist smaller than I thought

[spice shale]

Oh.... Something to consider:
If the players don't switch their race, this graph will always show a near 50/50 chance of winning.
OS is made to balance the win rate to 50%. And of course you need to win more often if you are at the highest level to keep your OS.

This graph is the proof: OS is working.

But no one can tell what implication the balance of the race really is out of this.

[verbal hazel]

Question that you may or may not be able to answer. Does the Arm/Core logo appear based on the faction they pick in lobby, or based on what they pick in game? https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=26f6fd65e6cf57fcb9715b068c824319

[blissful basin]

Is this limited to land labs or including air and sea

[hidden hull]

Btw, I have a direct way of analysing each units effectiveness averaged across many matches. I need to work on it to get it usable but I could look at Sumos and Termites as a case study first

[blissful basin]

Yess

What's a good metric...?

I think using micro battles and then analyzing situations and arguing whether X could have done more if they invested equally into something else, is good way

Look at 10 games where players made X unit. Are they using the unit to its reasonable / max potential. What are they accomplishing with it.

For example the tick and the medium hovercraft

[gloomy hornet]

I think core is direly lacking a sort of medium bruiser T3 unit still, Arm has 2 for some reason

Core is meant to give good hp per metal, but Thors give better hp per metal than juggs, as well as being like twice she speed and having EMP missiles

[hidden hull]

Well the main one I have developed involves running through replays of matches and assessing units experience at death. The way experience works means that for every unit, it will gain 0.03xp when the damage it has done to opposing units reaches the cost equivalent of itself. For example, a pawn killing an enemy pawn will gain 0.03xp, or a pawn killing a sumo (about 11 times the cost in metal and energy) would gain 0.33xp. There are extra complexities I intend to include but this is a simple example

[gloomy hornet]

like, you could make jugg 2* as fast, and give it emp missiles, make it emp immune, and it still wouldn't be as cracked as thors because they present 3 dgun targets instead of 2

that sounds dumb but literally that's just how good thors are

[blissful basin]

Ahh xD that works

Imb4 the tick be 4x off the chart

"Average" unit xp on death hmm. Long range units with meatshield in front have inflated xp. Bombers or stuff that uses enemy explosion radius maybe underrated

[surreal isle]

Termite still sad :(

[jolly meteor]

isnt termite going to get a cost buff and a range buff?

also 12 months ago

[stark tiger]

!
Old thread you say?!
@marsh seal care to make a statement before I close this up for being made of oldium?

[lean cliff]

Buff sumo welder termite.

[marsh seal]

Not much to add, termite is just getting a buff. For Sumo and Welder, rn the idea is more to nerf stronger T2 units to bring the T1 vs T2 power gap down, rather than buff the weaker T2's

[smoky sparrow]

Doesn't that go against the whole point of going t2 to get more efficient units?