Balance demons

[drowsy minnow]

amphib was inherited setting originally, but it worked well

[spiral knot]

The change to demons when they were merged from RC units was made by the GDT I believe, tho i'm not certain

[buoyant valve]

Well originally there was a demon in an OTA mod, but don't listen to the straits lobster.

[drowsy minnow]

Zecrus did it at same time as moving them to main, the latter of which GDT had agreed on

[regal mantle]

They should add the old demon back to candidates

[wispy kelp]

Yes but there is a longer history then that
Damgam originally was in charge of that unit

[fierce delta]

they don't play almost xD

[drowsy minnow]

the removal of amphib was a seperate decision he made at the time

[spiral knot]

most of the non OTA units in BAR are from ota mods from pre-2005. Until more recent stuff like legion, anyway

[wispy kelp]

The original demon had 3k dos and was the best aa in the game

The demon has a long history of nerfs due to it being only for scavengers in the first place and being severely over tuned

[drowsy minnow]

razorback similarly overtuned tbh

as I was discussing somewhere the other day, with Hobo Joe iirc

[wispy kelp]

The Demon wasn’t over tuned for that originally btw

[drowsy minnow]

no indeed, it was a scav boss so wasn't game balanced at all

[fierce delta]

it's good tho to have demon in the lab, core finally has a unit that can move fast and not be super expensive, before there were situation where Core just had to swtich to armada t3 to be able to play.

[spiral knot]

ya razor probably a bit op, but I think fixing its script so it doesn't shoot lasers out of its ass will be a suitable nerf, stat changes are probably not necessary

[wary turret]

How will this handle being surrounded now? will it spin around trying to re-target, or stick to shooting one arc that has next-nearest target? 🙂

[drowsy minnow]

I can tune it so it tries to minimise rotations

[spiral knot]

It will turn to face an initial target, but when retargeting it doesn't have to turn to fire, most noticeable when its surrounded by spam or shurikens

[drowsy minnow]

atm it can magically snap shots to targets no matter where they are

[wary turret]

yeah, I had noticed this and hoped it would get fixed 🙂

[brisk flower]

You have the fancy icon in discord though. Thought you were part of the special club.

[spiral knot]

I can merge things but I can't (and dont want to) change balance without decisions by zecrus and the GDT

[regal mantle]

You merged the demon nerf didn't you

[buoyant valve]

Sry Rippsy, where's your game stats and replays of you building demons? need that before you can talk in this thread or we just assum you are a nub

[fierce delta]

the targeting system on razor make it look like it's running on 4x speed compared to all the other unit in the game, it shouldn't be stupid op after a little fix

[inland laurel]

I think It’s totally fair to ask people to legitimize their opinions based on player experience

Having more games on one map than someone else doesn’t make your opinion worth more than another

But extrapolating opinions in one area of the game to a different area without adequate experience is pretty fraught

[buoyant valve]

I forgot that it's impossible for me to understand that units have different strengths and weakness on different maps, like how you've been saying that Shiva's are good on Resetta and I've been agreeing with you partly because they are supported and don't suffer from long walk times compared to larger maps.

Or how Demons are way better on maps like flats and foothills than say DSD because it's a wide-open map with lots of potential angles of attacks on flats and DSD is a narrow map that's easy to pork where the demon can't use it's strengths as easily and is more easily dguned.

[inland laurel]

Mostly agree with all of that - Shivas are really good on long walk time maps too like Riverrun or Bismuth, particularly when you bring rezbots to clean up wrecks as you continue your roll forward, though perhaps this comment should really be left on the buff Shiva thread

I think the comment you made about poison arrow needing an LOS increase was a v good one btw

[buoyant valve]

Well tbh, it seems like a pretty gimped raiding unit if it is meant to fullfil that role.

1. Costs alot so you can't get a lot of them
2. Because of 1 it's vulnerable to dguns from cloaked or dropped coms
3. Low LoS so effectively has about half it's range
4. Only amphib LoS and radar provider is Decoy com, so if you don't have a amphib lab close to your enemy it's very slow to get a decoy com close enough to do that job
5. You 'could' send in T1 ampib or hovers with it but then the Salamander exists and doesn't need those and is faster, suprise and speed is generally greater than range and firepower.
6. T2 gunships murder them, partly because of their speed they can just lock on and kill them before they hit infrastructure so probably need AA too.

Weirdly designed unit if it is meant to an amphib raider, would be keen to try to use in other ways if people have ideas on how to.

Very not independent, but enough on that, demons. And the Shiva talk I think will continue as Demons come into the greater Core T3 balance talk around people wanting a good Core T3 Amphib Raider.

[brisk flower]

I think names of GDT are here:
https://server4.beyondallreason.info/microblog/show/30

You could probably look at their stats here:
https://stephenbulu.github.io/barstats/

I did a search for Raghna, PtaQ, [Z]ecrus, and Jazcash. They're fairly balanced in terms of faction choice with the exception of Raghna who leans Cortex. But I wonder if that has to do with 1v1 which favours them. Not sure what is the player name of Watch the fort.

[wispy kelp]

Wtf I don’t think has any multiplayer matches in the last year

[inland laurel]

There’s talk of making @sly shell the unofficial community manager for the GDT, which I think we should all support as it would help streamline communication of GDT activities to the community

[fierce delta]

i just watch 2 demon roast a lolcannon in 10 sec
ill share the replay

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=8b5bdd652dc08a7df290664db4472e4a

[spiral knot]

demons and rosetta name a better combo

[fierce delta]

game had many demons 🙂

[regal mantle]

Supreme and pond flagship

[near osprey]

this thread seems to get derailed really hard, can we close it and make one for nerfing demons?

also nerf salamander in the meantime

[buoyant valve]

Lol, derail it even more? imo people are only now providing replays to show if it's good or bad. That's a huge step up from whatever was going on before.

[near osprey]

right they showed enough to warrant a demon nerf

[inland laurel]

To be fair I was providing that earlier but was dismissed because “FFA”

[buoyant valve]

idk i haven't had time to watch them all

[near osprey]

i had time to actually play with them on maps that arent strait

[buoyant valve]

lol, and the personal attacks begin again

[buoyant valve]

They'd be stronger in FFA I bet, though that probs goes for a lot of units.

[near osprey]

it's not a personal attack, it's common sense, you say you have to watch some replays to make an opinion, i don't need to

[buoyant valve]

I said I haven't watched those specific replays where people are highlighting whether it's good or bad.

I've seen it played in plenty of games too and I have a different opinion, this thread exists so clearly others do too.

Could you post some replays showing what you know, since you know so much we could all learn from it.

[near osprey]

some intense demon cooking
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?hasBots=false&endedNormally=true&players=Flash

[summer oriole]

how many vs how many? as far as i know 3 shivas lose to 1 razor and seems to scale up pretty same

[inland laurel]

You’ve been extremely sensible about the whole thing but the fact remains that this whole damn thread was started by someone who to this day has not played a team game outside of Supreme Strait since the actual demon nerf was released

And that was 19 days ago

[inland laurel]

3 shivas comfortably beat 1 razor, and the scale up should further favor shivas to a point because of AoE and larger-numbers flanking bonus. But there’s def a critical mass of Razors which would blow superior Shiva numbers out of the water - probably like 4+ Razors or something, because they can close the gap and surround

[near osprey]

yet a razor completely destroys shivas if it flanks them

[buoyant valve]

So, Karolson just posted are all of Flashes games which are mostly FFA's and I 100% agree demons are good in FFA compared to 8v8s in general. They're at much lower risk of being dgunned and most FFA maps are connected by land and have lots of different attack angles so the nerf doesn't even hurt them as much in such maps.

I'm not super upset about the damage nerf, it's big, but fine. But amphib makes them super hard to use on maps with lots of water and narrow passage ways which would be why straits players feel so hurt about this. FYI I don't even build demons often. But it massively hits Core sea transitioning to raiding with T3 and that should be acknowledged and considered as a certain map is played by what, nearly 30-40% of all games? idk the stats. It's just something I've observed as well, I'm not big sea player, I don't want this unit buffed for my personal play style.

And bearing that in mind the unit should not solely be balanced for that map, but understand the change really hurt the viability of demons on that map and that's why people are upset it lost amphib. idk the answer.

[summer oriole]

ty need to test this my self cause as farm as i knew razor youc just avoid all shots

[near osprey]

core players have salamander the best t2 sea raider

[inland laurel]

A micro’d Razor can probably infinitely avoid the missile backpack but if either the Razor or the Shiva is pushing then inevitably they will be in Shiva plasma range

[buoyant valve]

That has what most people have made the switch to.

[near osprey]

yes and it's busted

[inland laurel]

But despite how good Salamander is, isn’t that better for the game than an op 1-click demon?

[buoyant valve]

Yeah, the counter argument is arm has maras and shiva's not as good at raiding so they want the demon back.

[buoyant valve]

idk, demons have counters, easily stunned by arm t2 trans, potential dguns from just cloaking and hoping

[near osprey]

core and arm don't have to be the same

marauders are busted, so are salamanders

[inland laurel]

Isn’t the meta argument for Straits players who want healthy gaming that Demons should be nerfed too?

[drowsy minnow]

pincers < salas < rauders < demons < titans < juggs, was the rough amphib 'raider' power progression

[buoyant valve]

idk

[inland laurel]

Core sea already oppressive, why buff its impact on the map further by giving it game-ending tools

[drowsy minnow]

core sea not as OP as people think tbh
it heavily depends on map now

[inland laurel]

That’s good to hear & news to me

[buoyant valve]

The recent buffs to arm T1 Sea has changed some peoples minds.

[drowsy minnow]

plus a few other things that have always been OP for arm

[near osprey]

you include titan and jug yet miss cataphract

[drowsy minnow]

catas not great on land

[near osprey]

catas are just fine, they are cheap, and they can terrorize from sea

titans would just get emped on the other hand

and lunkhead is a joke

in fact the whole core amphibious roster is better than arm except marauders

poison arrow is pretty good

[inland laurel]

Isn’t a Cata just a good Banisher?

[near osprey]

not really, more like a weaker hover starlight

[inland laurel]

Cheaper, more DPS, more HP, but slower and a bit less range

[near osprey]

also, titans better than demons? sure man...

i'm not sure what titans are even good at tbh

[inland laurel]

Kiting behemoths in football-team numbers frfr

[drowsy minnow]

titans explode on death, and can shoot while in water. they often take out a com that dguns them, also much tankier

[near osprey]

titans get emped, thats all you need to know about them

[drowsy minnow]

so do demons

[near osprey]

demons somehow have aa and arent even amphibious anymore

[drowsy minnow]

emp rework titans have more resistance to emp btw

[near osprey]

emp rework isnt anywhere close to finished

[drowsy minnow]

[citation needed]

[summer oriole]

titan best sea unit in game

[near osprey]

it is what it is, emp rework is pretty busted

[ember badge]

EMP rework seems like a mostly completed thing to me, what else needs completed about it? (This is a genuine question)

It's rather straightforward just needs more public play testing to see if it belongs in main game

[near osprey]

shurikens destroy everything with it

[drowsy minnow]

there is a new version pending, but most of the mechanics are done with

[ember badge]

What are the differences?

[near osprey]

difference is them being even stronger

[drowsy minnow]

shuri are always powerful, but new version spreads the damage across HP better, meaning they're less potent vs t1s

arm has all the fast stuff, core needs shuri to stop it, that's not new

hence why most later arm packs free AA

[near osprey]

[citation needed]

[drowsy minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/everything-reaction-meme-gif-23306023

[near osprey]

sure i want some arm shurikens to stop pyros, the strongest raider in the game

[drowsy minnow]

arm has basically all the emp, take your pick

[near osprey]

except shurikens

[ember badge]

???

[prisma spire]

With emp rework shurikens are super op, much stronger than in base game

[drowsy minnow]

god forbid core have a unit that is useful

[drowsy minnow]

next version levels it out a lot, it's to do with how EMP damage is applied

[ember badge]

Don't make me tap the meme:#🎭｜bar-memes message

[near osprey]

core has a ton of useful units lol?

hail the king

[ember badge]

I like the ninja delete lol

[near osprey]

why you delete stuff

[ember badge]

Grunts got nerfed sadge, makes sense but sadge grunt and pawn having same speed makes no sense

[drowsy minnow]

arm bots are a lot better now, which will have interesting implications

[ember badge]

We got one laser unit nerfed

[near osprey]

noone even played them yet and you already say they are better

[ember badge]

Now we just need another
And it's name starts with Raz

[prisma spire]

Its hard to say what that nerf did, consider it in 2 weeks.

[near osprey]

even with pawn change t2 core bots are still way better

[ember badge]

Brother what are you saying

[near osprey]

core absolutely dominates 1v1, but god forbid arm may become relevant

[drowsy minnow]

I've always said that needs redressing

1v1 is a can of worms and a different topic though

[indigo whale]

And arm is dominant in 8v8, god forbid core t3 may become relevant

[near osprey]

1v1 is the same topic and needs to be considered just as much for balance

[drowsy minnow]

not here it doesn't

[near osprey]

well you got demons killing everything, happy now?

dragons are basically t3, kill everything now too

[indigo whale]

They most certainly are not killing everything I can tell you from experience maybe you just watch the highest level lobbies

[near osprey]

worse, i play them

[indigo whale]

That is true however and a different can of worms

[drowsy minnow]

dragons were always T3, they're very counterable though

handful of T2 figs will one shot them, they can only be used in controlled air

[inland laurel]

Op movie

[indigo whale]

I still don't understand the grunt nerf

[drowsy minnow]

basically means grunts can't kite pawns forever

[ember badge]

2 Razorbacks can easily take on a demon and defeat it for same metal cost

Which is what the demon was made for originally and why we are discussing it's nerfs and buffs

Razorbacks are too strong, Cortex needs something to match it's capabilities to a reasonable degree, so until the Razorback is nerfed appropriately the Demons will remain as they are

[indigo whale]

Well I understand that but it throws balance to the wind

[ember badge]

It's probably for the best

[drowsy minnow]

grunts are still stronger units, just can't get infinite value

[ember badge]

There was essentially little reason to go arm bots in 1v1s due to Grunts being so strong

This will help more variety which I don't mind at all

[drowsy minnow]

but ticks still exist, and I just fixed maces. centurion aiming is a pending change too, and in total that's a lot of plusses for the arm lab

[near osprey]

you havent seen all the 1v1 tourneys since forever being only grunts?

[ember badge]

And before we had Razorbacks killing everything so now we have both Razorbacks and demons killing everything, we have true balance

[indigo whale]

Had I also not seen 8v8 t3 be maras razors and Thor's forever

[indigo whale]

Also the problem with them being the same speed is the fact that the pawns have a much higher DPS which is going to not be fun when getting raided and other such things

[stray turret]

The Banshee needs to be buffed to make T1 arm also worth making

[near osprey]

banshees are good enough to snipe coms

[indigo whale]

Also if demons are op why has razors and Thor's been allowed to stay as they are with no changes for so long

[near osprey]

i don't know, but it's not a reason to make demon busted af

[indigo whale]

Like I have said before I would not saying buff the demon if the rest of core t3 was different or if arm t3 wasn't what it is

[regal mantle]

nah dude it's hard to balance both 1v1s and 8v8s, considering there are 8x more people playing 8v8s, that should prob be balanced first

[indigo whale]

But unfortunately the power imbalance and the inability to change the base t3 means you need a unit to do a lot more then one should

[indigo whale]

No every game mode should be balanced

[near osprey]

you are suggesting we should balance everything for strait players now

[indigo whale]

Try to balance one first and the game will never ever be balanced overall

[regal mantle]

oh that's what I said?

[near osprey]

because strait has so much more players right?

[regal mantle]

are you replying to the wrong message or something? when did I mention supreme

[near osprey]

you suggest we shouldn't balance 1v1

so i suggest we shouldn't balance maps that aren't strait

[regal mantle]

core wins 1v1, arm wins 8v8, therefore I think core should be buffed to balance out 8v8s

[near osprey]

because player number

[regal mantle]

yes becasue more players play 8v8, game should be balanced for majority in my opinion

[spiral knot]

thor has gotten tons of nerfs, it's not particularly powerful outside of its main role anymore

its terrible at fighting, just good at busting a hole through the front. Idk why everyone says its broken, people really rarely make it

[prisma spire]

Thor is not considered a strong unit by skilled players.

[indigo whale]

I might just might be blind a missed those or not used them enough since but for razors

[spiral knot]

razors are pretty trash once t3 phase starts in earnest, they're t2 fighters and raiders in some cases

shivas and demons and thors and titans all own them

[stray turret]

I dont get it either the late cor T3 is way better than arm and honestly shiva is not that bad, now its also faster

[spiral knot]

higher skill 8v8 games are usually about half and half core and arm. Arm dominates lower ts lobbies because it's the default faction choice and it's easier to play

[stray turret]

are more players playing arm more 8v8 really? It could just be the “likeability” of Cor. The lore, the texture.. of they were truly ballanced, more players would be playing arm probably

[near osprey]

most people play arm veh and core bots

[stray turret]

maybe that will change with the upcoming buff to arm t1 bots and the introduction of siegebraker to cor T2 veh.. could be more equal then

[near osprey]

pawn buff wouldn't change much for 8v8, core t2 bots are better

[stray turret]

I still see many reasons to play cor and do not see them weaker at all in T3 or otherwise. In fact Cor has stronger air and often defences - long range plasma etc., more HP on buildings and stuff like that, which also needs to be considered. I really think its just the visuals the sway a lot of mainly new players to choose Arm

[near osprey]

arm veh absolutely dominates the game

[indigo whale]

That is the whole reason I play core they look better they sound better the lore is better

[stray turret]

I like the shapes. But the scratched rusty texture I cannot get over. If they were like that - heavy, matt, rough - but not scratchy and rusty I would love Cor. And the lore?- they want to destroy everything including themselves in current version if I understand correctly. I think a very small portion of population will like that

[indigo whale]

Personal preference really but back on track

[stray turret]

Yes, all I am saying is that the number of players might not be only influenced by which faction is better so buffing Cor because less people play it might not be right, because the reasons to play arm might be different. It is actually a problem, factions should be different but all should be somewhat “likeable” for majority imho - then you can look at the statistics

[indigo whale]

you do have a point and with the high damage core t2 veh and other changes the meta is going to be significantly shaken up

[fair leaf]

I prefer core everything over arm in terms of aesthetics, etc, but looking at stats I tend to play arm more and also have higher winrate with it

I think it's probably because of core veh

[spiral knot]

op winrate

[fair leaf]

for the t3 I could ask for cons but I'm lazy with that

[indigo whale]

how do you see this

[fair leaf]

op luck lol, I don't think I'm 30os at all

[fair leaf]

https://stephenbulu.github.io/barstats/

[stray turret]

forget about yourself, think about majority of people. Btw the difference in win rate is not that big is it..

[pine snow]

not sure 3% is very significative though

and if it's 8v8 it adds so much variability it doesn't mean much, you'd need to compare all the members of your team and your opponent imo

if you want to be sure you could just do 8v8 full cortex vs full armada 😄

I'm sure people would predict Armada would mostly win but I'm not so sure...

[stray turret]

Actually how god is the AI? Perhaps having 8v8 arm vs cor all AI players play 10000 times would give an interesting result..

[near osprey]

not terribly god

[pine snow]

AI 8v8 is awful

they don't cooperate well and can get stuck. Barb AI is at its best on a 1v1 map, or on an 8v8 map but with only 2v2 or 3v3 players

a big gap in skill is that AI doesn't kite with a spread out front. They just clump units.

which means the advantage of the Janus will not really show up

[orchid raft]

idk game is perfectly balanced imo.

in all seriousness tho, demon currently has overtaken the t3 core meta, as making other units is kinda pointless. You can see it in this game where daywalker pretty much only made Demon https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=62d5dc65fd348c7c85f79471860fe3a6

And at the same time you want the Demon to overtake the Amphib meta too, which just turns the t3 stage into a different type of monospam. Theres nothing really stopping you from doing Shiva/Duck/Salamander for water attack purposes. And if the counterargument is "core no t3 raider from sea tho", where's my -cheap- amphibious siege option as an Arm player then? It's OK to have differences between factions yknow.

[near osprey]

wrong screenshot have to show map list

[orchid raft]

oh true

[pine snow]

sounds like games depend on your team, not the faction you pick. Because every team has both factions.

[orchid raft]

there u go karol

[pine snow]

sounds like Rosetta is your kryptonite

[orchid raft]

i hate that fucking map brother, but it is popular. so i suffer or i sit in queue for an hour lmao

[spring cloud]

Man doesn't play enough supreme, disregard his opinion 🤣🤡

[rapid vault]

Can krags kite demons effectivly/kill them? I will test later

[pine snow]

kargs ?

aren't demons faster ?

[near osprey]

yeah pretty sure demons are quite faster

[pine snow]

plus same exact range so no way they can kite

[drowsy minnow]

ah nvm, speed trumps weapon physics

weaponrage
sounds OP

[rapid vault]

This is how far a weapon will go out of its way to hurt you. The higher the rage level the further the weapon will reach from its home to hurt you.

As ecpected Karganeths can beat demos that are pushing into them

so can shivas

Wait I am just no microing both, this is not an accurat test

[pine snow]

yeah no one would send demons blindly, not microing them

[jaunty chasm]

Demons are just super buff fiends. Fiends dont do well for holding a line. They drive wedges into opposing lines.

This core arm. Naval argument is essentially. Nerf core frigates. No because t2 arm navy is stronger. But the thing is... the swarm of op core frigates and destroyers usually end the arm naval player. Negating the t2 argument. You shouldn't be arguing team x T1 is op because team Y t2 is op. That's not balancing. And now your talking about balancing cores t2 navy to match arms t2 navy without addressing the lackluster arm T1 navy. Isolate the tiers for balance first. The arm frigate could fire missiles instead to mitigate to gun line of sight issue. Or whatever prevents the.. Just 2, heavier rocket bot missiles. But the t1 tiers aren't balanced or the t2s.

[drowsy minnow]

arm T1 is very viable, somewhat map dependant

arm don't need frigates to be functional, you can completely skip them

[jaunty chasm]

Which is silly. Because core can use them. Giving them a cheaper unit to gain advantage.

[drowsy minnow]

core don't have dolphins which are nuts dps

[jaunty chasm]

True... Totally. But you know core is going frigates and if you build dolphins you should just sink them yourself unless you have a huge body of water to take advantage of the dolphin. Core reaches critical mass of frigates quickly... And then you can't do shit. Cos dolphins won't help and the destroyers are weaker than the core destroyer and get hammered by the frigates too. So you're left with 3 units unable to counter 1

[pine snow]

the dolphin meta has shifted now

Cortex navy is "considered" slightly better

so it's more or less balanced now, which is good, right ?

[spring cloud]

Not really anymore. Eel did tilt it back a bit.

[drowsy minnow]

arm destroyers also cost less however. dolphins are very good value dps but are more commital. ellysaws also cheaper if you wanted to use frigates anyway, and skaters are frankly mental now

if herring were a fraction as good as skater, arm players would be howling from the rafters

[spring cloud]

Nowadays I think it's fair to say arm core are even until battleship

[drowsy minnow]

it's a little easier to use core, especially on a small sea

but does vary a lot by map, both are very viable tbh

[jaunty chasm]

Maybe you could make the core frigates range shorter or make them slower something that values the maneuverability of the dolphins or something.

I want both teams to be balanced. Even though I'm an arm player I just want to see less "obvious" choice when choosing factions.

[stray turret]

Absolutely true..I will just repeat that I believe do to the texture of core (scratched and rusty) and perhaps the lore I think that more people will play Arm even if perfectly balanced

[nocturne jolt]

Little video for those who pretend that Demon can win against Thor.

Thor can easily avoid Demon getting behind him and abusing Thor's slow turret turning speed. Thor wins with 51-52% health left, which is quite metal effective. Not to forget that Thor has massive spread and emp, which does not show in this test.

[tall terrace]

boooo biaatch

[pine snow]

they wanna nerf Thor's speed a bit

[fierce delta]

yeah ofc that's the best engagement for the thor you can have, a flat ground and nothing blocking los and no other units around and you were looking at the demon when it attacked so perfect reaction, that's exactly what you want to do with the thors and you still get to 50% with a perfect scenario

[pine snow]

also would you ever encounter a solo Thor ?

[fierce delta]

if you add a few units to have the thors turret looking the other way and then you attack with demon so the turret need to rotate for like 4 secs, you will almost kill the thor

[nocturne jolt]

It is much more realist than Demon turning around Thor without getting hit in the middle of T3 battle 🙂

[pine snow]

nowadays don't Cortex people keep their T2 lab for quite a while during the marauder/razorback phase (coz Mammoths), and THEN go T3 to build demons right away ?

so demons vs thors is gonna be a frequent occurence, but unlikely 1v1

[nocturne jolt]

So Demon player has perfect vision and possibility to control enemy units too, so that Thor cant even move away. 52% is pretty good, considering Thor is 9000 metal and Demon is 6000, and Thor has spread and emp.

[summer oriole]

yea but if you add second demon the thor gets absolutely destroyed (well not the point but its pretty balanced i suppose)

[fierce delta]

it's not too bad currently, im sure there will be another nerf in the future tho, just need time to find out by how much

[nocturne jolt]

If there is no surround bonus, Demons should still get crushed, even 12000 metal against 9000. But this is totally pointless test, try 2 Thors against 3 Demons if you want.

[summer oriole]

with 2 demon 1 thor just face to face if no thor chain its like 1 demon almost dies

[pine snow]

2 thors against 3 demons is no contest, the Thors have 2 chances to EMP

in 8v8 games don't you see demons before the thors ?

[nocturne jolt]

Totally pointless, but you can show if Thor can keep distance and have Demons side by side so that Thor has spread, and there is almost no surround bonus against it, Thor should crush even so unbalanced combat.

[pine snow]

ideally by the Thor stage you should have a mix of demons and mammoths

but the thor guy should have a few starlights as well

[fierce delta]

have you been validated by posting ur match history btw?

like this one

[summer oriole]

with chain 1 demon dies

[nocturne jolt]

Since when is it obligation in BAR?

[orchid raft]

history checks out, you're free to post in this thread

[summer oriole]

history is there so ppl know if you opinion is valid

[fierce delta]

what's your Ingame name sir wikingest?

[orchid raft]

ok but what if each demon is on either side?

[summer oriole]

absolute destruction of thor

[orchid raft]

not necessarily on either flank, but like at a 30degree angle

[fierce delta]

tbh the thor can use emp missile to stop the demon from chasing it

emp is huge part in the matchup

[summer oriole]

yea emp can save thors life best case

[wary turret]

Once a demon is milsile EMP'ed does the Thor's tiny-EMP lasers keep it EMP'ed?

[summer oriole]

yes

[nocturne jolt]

My opinion is valid because it is true, if it is true. It is not "valid" because I am called "Raikoh" or other.

[fierce delta]

you need a lot of luck to hit the missile, demon are super fast

[fierce delta]

We need a sreenshot sir, or you are not validated by the high council

[nocturne jolt]

What high council are you talking about?

[orchid raft]

you have no op credentials to prove that your opinion is valid 😠

[nocturne jolt]

And since when do people need validation by Raikoh to post here?

[fierce delta]

the high council of the sacred elders

[fierce delta]

it's fine you don't need anyone permission to post here, im just kidding btw
but show us which maps you play on tho

[olive shoal]

As a terminal Isthmus navy addict the Scuttle is my raiding unit of choice

[jaunty chasm]

Basically a bunch of old fat dudes telling fart jokes.

Lol. Joking. How do I get that screenshot

[regal mantle]

https://stephenbulu.github.io/barstats/

[lucid cloud]

Peeps talking about t3 sea raiders like Cataphracts don't exist. Maybe Cataphracts could use a buff.

[narrow lava]

anything too slow isnt a raider but a pusher

[civic quest]

Demon strong buff not needed

[civic quest]

Demon cooking too stronk

[spiral knot]

demon is the grillmaster

[indigo whale]

When are we getting the grillmaster tv show with the demon as the host

[jaunty chasm]

Am I op enough. 😂

I wonder if my uncertainty hadn't been practically 0 i wonder what rank I would've been instead being stuck on 13 for 8 months. Oh well, game on now bitches. Also I did kind've stop giving a shit about winning for a while because it didn't make a difference. But that hill has been climbed and over come. So fuckin A @regal mantle

[tall terrace]

you would still be 13 you have 1.2 thousand matches

that’s a lot of time for your OS to change

and a negative winrate at 13 OS means actually you would probably be even lower

funny thing is 90% of people who I saw complaining about it being uncertainty holding them back have not changed their TS

[karmic yacht]

yeah basically. if low uncertainty is holding you back you should have good winrate but be climbing slowly because of uncertainty

anyways prolly #⭐｜main would be better to continue

[jaunty chasm]

And yet. In the last few days I've climbed 2 OS points and I've done nothing different. New players start at 17. Play 20 games Win 10 matches then think they get OS 20 then walk around calling people noobs. I've buried enough of them to know that talk is cheap.

[karmic yacht]

Maybe remove demon ability to crush t2 walls but give back amphib

There are very few fast units that can crush 1 tier lower walls

Demons kill walls a lot better than marauders anyways so it's not an absolute counter

Walls should be able to counter mobility

[buoyant valve]

tbh just give it amphib back, the games I've been playing/watching where demons crush are mostly dry anyway, removing it is basically a big fu to straits

[near osprey]

so you want them to crush water too?

[spring cloud]

Unlike titans their weapon hard point is underwater so these can't fire...

[drowsy minnow]

some rivers they can, depends on depth
or could, when water was a thing they did

[stray turret]

Wouldn’t it make more sense to just increase the Health on Demon and improve Shiva as the amhib Cor unit?

[teal oak]

it's not so unusual someone at 15 OS would beat someone at like 20 OS though? like it's statistically probably gonna happen 30% of the time or something

if I beat a 50 OS player once in 20 games it doesn't mean they're full of shit an I am the master of the universe, it means I am right where I belong atm

lower uncertainty just means you'll reach your OS slower right? but if you're stronger than your OS you should win more than you lose and it will go up

[buoyant valve]

I'm saying it won't effect like 90% of games outside of straits to give them amphib, even the FFA maps have shit tons of land paths for them.

[teal oak]

not trying to flame you btw but if you want your number to go up it begins with taking accountability for your number. As long as your OS is everyone else's/The Game/Santa's fault you're probably gonna be spinning your wheels.

[jaunty chasm]

You're not. The issue was solved for me when they raised the uncertainty level. The brakes came off. I advocated heavily for it over the last few months. And there's an in depth discussion about it in #1161467259471007787

[teal oak]

surely if you maintain a 48% win rate roughly then all things being equal eventually you'll end up back at 15~ OS though?

[indigo whale]

You assuming that he plays to his full capability ever game and trys to win also this is getting off topic so let's get back on track

[teal oak]

ah ok, he wasn't trying, I see.

buff demons

[indigo whale]

Wait until the meta has settled I would say there new units coming as well

[fierce delta]

Around the max range, Demon doing about 2.5x more dmg than Razor?
About 600 for Razor and 1600 for Demon right?

[teal oak]

To be fair when you put it like that, demon sounds fine

At a guess I think a lot of the reason people want Demon buffed is more to do with the greater context, IE core t3 as a whole compared to Arm's.

[spring cloud]

the people that want demons buffed have two points in mind

• some want the DPS nerf reversed, which is a bad demand and shouldnt be seriously considered unless other changes are implemented that rework the demon into a different direction where even higher DPS would make sense.
• some want the amphi back, which is in my opinion very reasonable.

[lucid cloud]

HP is another idea, but that seems to be it's intended weakness

[wary turret]

With great power, comes great weakness - the balance of all things not broken

[fierce delta]

Why not make Demon self D like fiends and Jugg?
Could be around the same as a tacnuke missile?

The dps being constant 1.6k is too good, no drop off.

[wary turret]

I like the idea of a bigger self D, but jugger would be far to big - something like an advanced energy storage self D maybe?

[drowsy minnow]

saw a good example of why demons and razors aren't just dps comparable earlier; a load of ticks leaked in, and the demon took out half a base killing them

a razorback would have surgically evaporated the lot

[fierce delta]

yeah like a tacnuke or around that

[wary turret]

Cor tacnuke is:
Aoe: 380
Damage: 4000

Holy jesus, I'm gonna build AdvEstores as bombs that's nuts

[fierce delta]

it is when you fight big units, obviously, razors is much better with laser and broken targeting at killing ticks but 1.6k dps at that range is op, razor only 600 and it used to be a really strong unit already, now demon makes razors looks kinda bad

[wary turret]

huh, juggerselfD is way smaller than I thought:

damn legacy debt 😄 this is jugger

so yeah, the expldoeas = juggernautSelfd, might be a good test of that idea

[fierce delta]

would be more fun to use if it could selfD, but obviously it would make it even harder to balance...

[wary turret]

maybe the self-d for demon should be the aoe:430, dmg:3000, and the killing it could be 1/4-1/3 that or there abouts?

[karmic yacht]

role overlap

well not really but putting a big self d on mobile demon is kinda a big deal

granted that is that much for the unit's dps

[wary turret]

i kinda enjoy the flavour of it tbh, haven't really thought to hard at the balance implication yet ;D

[scarlet ridge]

I personally feel getting a amphi back for small nerf to speed + the already nerf to damage and bp is fine

[inland laurel]

I’ve never had a super strong opinion on the amphib role and I still don’t.

But as I mentioned before, Strait players who want to enjoy good gameplay should not be advocating for demons to be amphibious

[ember badge]

Strait players who want to enjoy good gameplay and are Armada shills* you mean

[inland laurel]

For strait players who don’t typically play sea roles, amphibious demon seems to mean that sea positions have a cor t3 game ending tool, which makes the sea spots even more impactful than they already are on the game

For sea players, it means less of a reason to play Arm sea which leads to more Cor vs Cor sea fights and less diversity

Cor already have t2 Salamander which is very op at amphibious raiding

[summer oriole]

when demon was amphibious in strait it was very easy game ender for cor now sala is pretty strong if you get the timing but with shivas you cant have the fast game ending effect so you are kinda forced go arm t3

[wary turret]

and it wans't just one demon, once they started coming it was a steady (albeit slow) stream and they each left more of a wake than the previous one. It was very unfun

[summer oriole]

well that depends on perspective 😄 sea players had fun others not so much

[inland laurel]

Maybe someone can explain to me from first principles: Why should something as fast as a razor and significantly stronger be able to walk through the water?

[karmic yacht]

in the past a sea lane that stalled out with both sides underscaling, land/eco would outscale and sea would become less important
cause you cannot send a meaningful supported t3 push across the ocean without overwhelming economical advantage

Marauder is S tier at the start of t3 but once razors or air defense is setup they phase out

[stray turret]

I dont get this idea either, cor has shiva for amphib

[karmic yacht]

difference with demons is that you can actually switch into demons at 200MPS income at 22+ minutes into the game. besides emp there is little that can stop the demons besides slow sharps/starlight. so you can run and kill air or frontline, whichever has less defenses

after like 22 minutes any half competent eco will have razors in position for maruaders

honestly tho air players are terrible about scouting lost seas

you need to figure out if they are pumping demons or ecoing. and how many demons they have

[summer oriole]

most of this comes from the fact that shivas kinda suck trying to push from sea in strait

[karmic yacht]

demons super strong for navy cause they cost less energy/bp than marauders, less ramp unloading time, and you can suck all your ship metal and put it into demons

[lucid cloud]

Continues crying in Cataphract

[karmic yacht]

abductor hard counters them but like gosh why are we designing unit counterplay with broken units

abductor is like top 2 most broken units in the game

from the games we played with demons, 100% of sea players would switch into demon with or w/e aa hover support

some of them would stall out as plp defended with abudctors and got thors out
but many games were just lol demon spam end game

btw, without demons the main way to end game on strait is with the earlier marauder push or with thor push later off of 3-9 afus

with the flagship buff we might sea the return of the titan
as a titan supported by a flagship has some merit in establishing a beachhead

titans valuable for pushing away enemy flagship

[karmic yacht]

shiva sucks at raiding due to not being able to move quickly to threaten other bases besides the coast (which ships should already be killing)

[stray turret]

Why not take away shiva amphib and give it to demon then

[spring cloud]

what a load of horseshit. Right now core players would simply BUY an Arm con to get marauders. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever, just shows you dont play supreme sea AT ALL

[karmic yacht]

most t2 cons u buy are arm so u just use that

t3 gantry at home is generally more solid play since more localized BP

however with core sub you are already making underwater mexes / lab has to be UW so you make it proxy

honestly salamander is a major reason to go core navy

unless you can arrange to get a muskrat or cor con quickly

but most con share can just be done so you cant really argue to much on it

arm sea suffer from salamander diff and battleship shorter range and squishy

it can not fight starlights and gets vaporized by snipers

they have hard time impacting land during midgame before marauder

thats why ive been cooking seaplane builds, take advantage of armada economic advantage on wind map

[inland laurel]

I don’t, what’s your point and why are you getting so emotional about it? It’s gonna be ok buddy

[karmic yacht]

from the vids and testing, demon slightly more range than a razor, both razors and demons can kite each other backwards, tho its harder for razors

i don't think most players are gonna be able to successfully kite demons with razors

if a titan (13500/28600) and 2 demons (12000/18000) stand and bang at 475 range, titan survives with 8% hp

with kiting it survives with 25% hp

[lucid cloud]

How many Cataphracts to kill a demon? T-T

[teal oak]

I'd say definitely at least 1

[lucid cloud]

What is Demon's intended niche? What is it supposed to be strong against? What units is it supposed to synergize with?

[ember badge]

Demon fulfills a role largely similar to razorbacks albeit a bit more tanky and with a decent bit more fire power
They're fantastic at getting out semi-early in T3 due to their speed and effectiveness at whittling down either high priority targets or a cone of weaker enemies very very fast

Demons usually operate best alone due to the massive amount of friendly fire potential they possess; they're not too great at holding defensive lines either so their main role is to serve as solo assault and skirmish units, perhaps sending out in packs isn't a bad idea either

They are rather squishy for a t3 though so keeping them hidden behind a hammer before sending them to clear house is recommended

[stray turret]

given the drop off on razor dps, I think the demon is actually OK no, perhaps even better than razor

The question is the amphib, as shiva is not really a meaningful amphib - perhaps exchanging that ability from shiva to demon would make sense. Alternative is to make shiva better, which is on the way though in the balance pack

[drowsy minnow]

balance pack shivas are a different issue atm. shivas are a siege unit that can go via water, they're not intended as a raider remember

again, the dropoff on laser weapons is intended to offset the fact that other weapons can miss, and as I keep saying, demon is basically a pawn dressed up. while it -can- have serious dps, especially vs fixed targets, often it won't, and will shoot your stuff in the process. also as ever note that razorbacks are insanely powerful AA units, whereas demons are not

[indigo whale]

This is why I keep saying stop comparing razors to demons to determine whether it should be buffed or not those two units work very differently from eachother

[drowsy minnow]

it's basically the grunt v pawn problem, T3 edition

[spring cloud]

I just told you, don't talk about things you don't understand. Deciding wether sea picks arm or core doesn't rest on demons being amphi or not. Not sure why I have to repeat my point since you even acknowledged you don't know what you are talking about in that regard 👍🏻

[inland laurel]

Literally nobody said that, I think you have a reading comprehension issue along with your emotional regulation issues - I don’t see any point continuing this conversation sorry

[stray turret]

Go get cold shower, make sure your balls are cold enough when you come back to the chat

[spring cloud]

🤷🏼‍♂️👍🏻

[jaunty chasm]

Yeah @spring cloud what's up. You don't usually rage. 😂 Supreme sea is obviously a bit of a passionate subject for you 😂🌊

[spring cloud]

Well it's the best nap (tm) so what can you do 🤣

[stray turret]

I have a feeling from this discussion that perhaps rather than Demon the other T3 cor units should be buffed? As lot of arguments for improving Demon is that the rest of T3 cor is shit 😄

[drowsy minnow]

pretty much

but that probably means a huge rework of t3 overall and that's a fractal can of worms

hence simplest crutch for now is just let the demon be the balancing unit

[zenith fjord]

Personally, I'd like to see the gantries and lolcannons doubled in price so T2 has a chance to get its legs under it.

[pine snow]

it's true that T3 appears a bit too soon

but that would mean a lot more pulsars and tac nukes before T3 appears, as well as starlights

I think it will benefit Cortex more, because Dragons and Mammoths are basically T3

Armada has no such "T2.5" unit, no ?

[zenith fjord]

Neither pulsars nor tacnukes are uncounterable with T2. And dragons get slaughtered by fighters.

[pine snow]

it takes a lot of figs since they have AA

[zenith fjord]

It takes some fighters. Not a lot of fighters.

[pine snow]

so if you got 3-5 of them, it does a lot of damage to bases before being killed now, which is good. It works as a "let's try and destroy this guy's AFUS farm"

[lucid cloud]

I don't like increasing lab price. I prefer unit accessibility with units being relevant or irrelevant organically by what's already on the field, i.e., when there's too much aoe on the field then the t3 health pool becomes more relevant

Maybe increase t3 prices overall, but not increase lab price

[pine snow]

yeah coz Shiva way too cheap

[drowsy minnow]

that's the hard part done

[zenith fjord]

I don't agree. Reason being that T3(or lolcannons) coming online ends what I consider the most interesting phase of the game. And increasing T3 unit price is an even harder ask, since they're supposed to end the game.

Raising gantry price would allow T3 to be just as strong as they are now, but come online later.

(My actual opinion is that T3 shouldn't exist outside of the real big boy units like thor/behe/titan/jugg, but you can imagine how realistic getting that pushed through would be)

[lucid cloud]

So are you wanting games to end in t2? Or just prolong the game?

[drowsy minnow]

lolcannon are a bit too cheap yes

[lucid cloud]

I agree with lolcannon too

[zenith fjord]

Preferably end at T2, yes. T2 has a wonderful combined-arms dynamic that is cut short by the arrival of T3/lolcannons.

[lucid cloud]

Consider StarCraft as an example: teching up is pretty cheap. You can rush the most expensive units in the game within 5 minutes. But those units usually aren't cost effective against the cheaper units until armies get bigger and the map gets more congested. Lower tier units get their chance to shine, while the top tech units are increasingly more likely to end the game as time goes on.

In bar terms, this already kinda applies with t2 and med tanks. Med tanks can beat most t2 for cost in low numbers, but t2 critical masses much better with more range and aoe

[fierce delta]

So when are demon getting a nerf?

[summer oriole]

which nerf?

[fierce delta]

dps once again ofc

like around 1.2k dmg maybe?

[jaunty chasm]

A longer t2 window would be cool. It would up the game length and intensity.

[stray turret]

what are you talking about the conversation is whether it should be buffed.. My opinion is no - buff instead other Cor T3 units a bit

[maiden cliff]

here the conversation is about buffs, while even the buff proponents admit that it's already OP, just not OP enough.

Nerf makes much more sense

[drowsy minnow]

it does, as long as arm T3 is nerfed

[stray turret]

Yes, because Cor T3 is weaker than Arm

[stray turret]

Hornet but the solution cannot be making 1 unit extremly fast.. you will have players only produce Demons.. I want to see Cor used more in 8v8 as it seems to me that arm is indeed used more, I guess because of T3. What is the issue with Cor T3 actually? Where are they weeker? Perhaps the Karg and Shiva (already done in your ballance pack) should be buffer and Demon nerfed a bit?

[drowsy minnow]

speed is needed sometimes though

demon pays for it by being comparatively glassy

[stray turret]

Then make Demon fast, lower dps

The truth is that Draggon is very fast - faster than Marrauder, has massive dps and T3 gantry does not have to be made to produce it.. Somewhat Cor does have a raiding T3 then.. but sure let's make small adjustements so Cor as also viable.

Cor has many other advantages though - many T2,5 units, longer range long range plasma etc..

[fierce delta]

buff or nerf is the same subject btw, can you guys unlock iq

[zenith fjord]

Cortex is very bad at power projection. Especially with those units you call t2.5.

Sure, mammoths will roll over defending units...if they ever get there.

[drowsy minnow]

dragons are even glassier than demons

[pine snow]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-oh-my-woah-whoa-cute-gif-4765390319311889096

[tall terrace]

buff demons (or nerf ?)

there we go friends

Balance demons

👍

[cedar turret]

The balance demons must've got to my poor widdle grunties

[lucid cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/bh187-austin-powers-noo-move-get-out-of-the-way-gif-19284848

[stray turret]

But it is coming from T2 gantry - it is not a problem to make it a bit closer to front line. Honestly overall, I am just not seing the cor worse than arm, especially now with demon and improved shiva. The rest is good imho - Karg, Jug, Behe - all real good in fact, I would rather Arm to have Jug and Cor to have Titan as that would equalize the late T3 a bit.

[lucid cloud]

cor seems strong enough on the battlefield army vs army, but arm seems a lot better at converting an advantage into critical damage. hard for Cor to close out a game quickly, especially in 8v8. arm leaks through with fast units for critical damage; cor has to wade through the entire enemy team

[stray turret]

OK but what do you want to do with it, or do we really want to change it? I mean - this is exactly the supposed difference between the factions. The Cor has a lot more steardy units and better arty / rocket units. Arm has faster, single target and precise units. Cor has moreover better stats for almost all buildings..

Actually a great example is Dragon vs Liche

[indigo whale]

I agree with this

The problem isn't how good it is now the problem is how it and the other t3 compare to eachother

[spiral knot]

So perhaps it would be better to make another thread talking about other t3 units, instead of trying to overhaul t3 balance by changing a single unit.

[sly shell]

I think really the only t3 imbalance is that titans are too powerful and core lacks responses to it, but games don't usually last that long and this doesn't seem to be reflected in the meta anyway

in pre-Demon metagame

[near osprey]

titan dies to any emp

[stray turret]

I would rather have Jug than Titan

[drowsy minnow]

titans best naval unit ¬_¬

[jaunty chasm]

I watched a few more games last night, where demons just K.O the game. 8 or 10 of them rolled over with grunts , they smashed through the front lines, wiped out 3 armys, 8 razors, 4 bases. Other team tapped out.

• Razors can't kite Demons the the field. Theres units in the way, hills, turn speed. They just get smashed. The speed in conjunction with the range of the flamethrower just keep the razor hot until it melts. Perhaps the flame thrower projection needs to be shorter.
• Comparing the application of marauders and demons is somewhat mute too because, marauders, lets be honest, kind've blow themselves up a lot. The quick step, fairly light armour and the splash damage of their own projectiles hitting buildings, units at close range while they usually , single file side squeeze, nose to ass through fields of energy converters and con turrets , leaves them just dying from AOE. Demons can handle this most of them time. Again they just are just too fast and have too much reach and can absorb enough to get out the way while everything goes boom behind it.

[drowsy minnow]

so it's too arm balance a unit to be allowed in a core lab, essentially?

demons being a bit slower, with less dps BUT MORE HP could work

but I just don't really see this as a fixable problem atm, just a 'less wrong' one

[karmic yacht]

well microed maruaders should not eat converter splash

but they are short ranged and fat, not suitable for a pitched battle

[karmic yacht]

wait for t2 cor ST vehicle dmg dealer to come i guess?

[drowsy minnow]

going to focus that next, and unblocking the remaining boat issues

trouble with pack release anything is it just compounds work and somehow makes more

[teal oak]

pls no, the problem with the core T3 lab is that it's the core T3 lab

making the demon more core-y would just bring us back to Arm t3 being the only T3

[drowsy minnow]

it would still have to be able to brawl razors and rauders whatever else happens to it

imo it doesn't need a nerf again, the issue is the greater T3 picture at this point

[jaunty chasm]

The experimental karg is real T3 😍

[lucid cloud]

Demons:
Range: 500 --> 450
Movespeed: 63 --> 69
?

[austere turtle]

demon should be cortex eqivalent of marauder it needs amphib. of course its 5x as expensive and strong as marauder but it should fill the same role

[near osprey]

factions dont have to be the same

[stray turret]

• amphib.. would make sense overall

[drowsy minnow]

no, but labs have to be balanced against each other, with roughly comparable unit abilities

[austere turtle]

shiva as amphib unit is a joke you need to set up a forward underwater t3 lab to make that work

[indigo trellis]

Looking back at all the Demon conversations.... I think the plan of keeping the demon in its amphib pre-release form with a small damage nerf, and reworking the Shiva was probably the better idea. If you watched some of the FFA's this weekend in the event, demons getting more or less kited out by Titans was a pretty common site. The demon pre-release offered a real change in the game dynamic and went a long way to making Cortex actually viable in the tech/eco roles for 8v8. It's not like people are not making demons, or they are useless in their current state, but I don't really think it did much to effect the the situation many of us were hoping that it would help address.

[inland laurel]

Demons can be kited by titans? That seems like a rly good thing?

[indigo trellis]

You think so? Im kinda sus about Demons being unable to close the gap on them and just dieing

[summer oriole]

demon being kited by titans should be good thing

but i would be bit more worried about jugg vs demon match up cause 4 demon can beat 1 jugg

[near osprey]

at least something titans are useful for... killing a unit that's like 2.5 times cheaper

[indigo trellis]

Titans are arguably one of the best t3 units in the game as they have the speed to simply go around Jugs/Behemoths.

[near osprey]

jugs are not good, behemoths are rarely ever good, rating titans because they maybe can fight them... is not good
really doubt titans can fight behemoths anyway
and thors would've done the job better anyway, without getting emped

[indigo trellis]

I think the rating is based on the fact they DON"T have to fight them. Specifically they have the speed needed to go around or effect the map elsewhere in many cases. While Titans can generally flank jugs and kill them, they don't have chance in equal numbers or in chokes, as for Thors, well in cases where there is alot of water they lack options

[drowsy minnow]

I mean enough ticks can beat a jugg, demons being able to with some micro and a fully unsuppported jug in an open golf field, doesn't seem unreasonable

[teal oak]

I think when people say 'Demon seems more like it belongs in Arm t3 lab' what they really mean is 'it's not complete dogshit so why does Core make it?'

Core badly needs something like Thor/Titan, something that does ok damage, is reasonably tanky and not slower than a motherfucker

[drowsy minnow]

see also turtle, which is the inverse; a core balanced unit in an arm lab, and everyone's saying it's steaming horseshit

[teal oak]

til then Arm t3 is always gonna be leagues ahead I think

[drowsy minnow]

this is what the T3 tank I was making was trying to aim towards

[teal oak]

yeah it's dogshit because it's a core unit in disguise ; ;

[teal oak]

great, pls get it into the game asap

[drowsy minnow]

HOWEVER if demon is staying non amphib then turning it more into a battle mech, with a bit less range, more speed and some HP to account for glass jaws, seems saner. speed is usually a stat core aren't allowed but it is critical here

[teal oak]

its range already seems a bit lacklustre to me, idk

[drowsy minnow]

but to make that work then a rehash of T3 overall needs to happen

[teal oak]

much rather have a thor personally.

[indigo trellis]

Imo, Core t3 became much more viable with the first iteration of the Demon due to it being able to effect frontline or amphib raid effectively and do it in a time frame that made Mara's free first strike option suddenly have consequences

[drowsy minnow]

and in the meantime the least wrong temporary solution is just give demon amphib back

[indigo trellis]

PLEASE

It would help so much, with amphib you at least don't just KNOW where they are going to attack from

[drowsy minnow]

and considering pulsar hard counters demons, that's a big issue

[indigo trellis]

Them loosing amphib bascialy negated thier purpose imo

[teal oak]

demons can be really great situationally but I think Core is still missing something from its t3 lab

[drowsy minnow]

naval core players were basically rendered almost irrelevant late game after that

[teal oak]

I think core could use some hybrid of thor/titan

[zenith fjord]

I say make printer amphib and get it in the game. Then any breach would have some staying power.

[near osprey]

pulsar hard counters everything?

[indigo trellis]

It does not lol....

Its an excellent unit but its not a "counter" to everything

[teal oak]

yeah but specifically it delivers great value vs demon since demon's weakness is its squishyness

for the metal investment you don't get a whole ton of health

Thor just such a superior unit imo

[indigo trellis]

Im more interested in why you say to not give Demons amphib back

[teal oak]

I still don't think demons are really the problem, I think the problems is just core t3 is lacklustre

[drowsy minnow]

demon could be reworked into that, with the tank being a say 2K amphib unit. would give shivas for siege, the tanks for assault with amphib option, demons for generic dps T3 bot role

other solutions are possible but turn into too close to mirror balance of arm lab, rather than ability balance

[teal oak]

idk Id love a new unit rather than another demon rework but perhaps that's just me

[drowsy minnow]

this is the root of why people say 'demons OP in FFA'. what WON the game was the X afus in the corner, the demons are just the only non-bad T3 ambassador of that, with a side order of dragons

at that point they could usually have won with T1 air, hovercraft, ticks etc, if they wanted to

[indigo trellis]

Well when unit caps come into play Dragons become pretty amazing

[drowsy minnow]

as they should though, and they're still made of glass to enemy fighters even so

[wary turret]

I agree, Outlaw's AFUS' were OP 😦

the 100,000metal in demons could have been anything at that point

[drowsy minnow]

exactly

but people just see demons from the fog and screech 'OP OP OP'

[indigo trellis]

Maybe adding some specail damages to demons to decrease thier overall DPS against structures? Im sure alot of people would cringe at that idea but....

[drowsy minnow]

if people are really that concerned they're so OP just play arm and your endgame comp is now ticks, t2 fighters and abductors; should be easy wins

but people don't as oddly, the issue isn't the demons & dragons, but the eco behind it :P

[drowsy minnow]

ideally best not to

special damages really best avoided as often as possible

[indigo trellis]

Yeah I agree with that overall philsophy

[near osprey]

already talked about that

[indigo trellis]

FFA reasons?

[near osprey]

i dont want to rewrite my dozen messages in this thread

[indigo trellis]

What if we just had fire/lighting damage deal reduced damage to structures overall? That might open up alot of new options

[near osprey]

tldr that entire core amphib roster is already better than arm except marauders

[ember badge]

Thermonuclear take 😂

[indigo trellis]

Honestly Core being better at "amphib" is actualy good for asymetric balance in general

[orchid raft]

they're also better at air and at sea and at bots

[indigo trellis]

THey are only "recently" better at sea though yeah?

Dolphin dominance was real for a long time

[orchid raft]

so they should be better at everything then and we've solved the issue ig

[indigo trellis]

Arm sea actualy kills core in end game naval fights....should those actualy occur

[near osprey]

yeah pretty much, arm is only good at veh lately

[orchid raft]

yeah yeah arm op, just overbuff core units, or gut arm ones, and we'll get some better gameplay.
just like the 1v1 tourney

[indigo trellis]

I don't think that way.

Generally I try to think of balance in this game as more of a timing and opportuniy thing

It wasn't that long ago that Core Sea was "trolling" cause dolphins.

Now arm sea is trolling cause frigates

and I've seen a lot more arm bots recently....pawn/rocko combo seems to at least be showing up....dunno if its actualy "good" in your world but Ive certinaly been seeing alot of it in smaller games

[near osprey]

arm t2 bots are worse than core in most cases

[indigo trellis]

I'd say they are more defensively oriented. So.....yes they would be generally worse but they are also stronger at playing on weakside maps

[near osprey]

not sure how they are defensively oriented, core can defend just as well

[indigo trellis]

It's harder to push into welder/sniper, than it is to push into pyro/arbiter

[near osprey]

welder counterpart is sumo/mammoth, sniper counterpart is sheldon

[drowsy minnow]

arm sea is better than people assume, but is harder to use optimally

[summer oriole]

i am not gonna go to what ticks can beat and what not but titan seems to perform much better vs demons than jugg its 100% jugg issue but well might be fixed in later future or never

[austere turtle]

i mean it could be a T3 fiend if its not going to be amphib anymore, wich would mean: no wreckage on death high speed and dps but low range and hp

[drowsy minnow]

I mean if you can codify bad trade examples for juggs with relative costs, there's a slim chance I can get it buffed to fix

[near osprey]

jug trades quite poorly with dgun

tbh jugs are just poor fighters overall, their most useful feature is selfd nuke

but then if jugs are too strong then behemoths get more irrelevant

[austere turtle]

behemoths are allready irrelevant and in those rare occastions where they shine its hard if not impossible to beat them jugg will never deal as much damage up close and it costs 10K metal more

[drowsy minnow]

one of the juggernaut roles is to force out commanders from hiding, as they're a finite supply

[spiral knot]

Can you guys watch some more high level games lol, Pretending like every arm unit is strong and OP while every core unit is weak and gimped is very silly and is not gonna help your arguments get taken seriously, core is absolutely the stronger faction right now, especially in t3

[stray turret]

Yeah give us the precious

[teal oak]

Hi Hobo Joe I have a great Lasagne recipe if you're interested

you strike me as a pasta guy

[spiral knot]

and deflecting FFA demons as an eco problem ignores that they are the king of the t3 stage in any map rotation 8v8, absolutely trashing just about everything else

[fierce delta]

One thing i don't understand, how is Demon more "glass cannon" than Razor? They have almost the same metal/hp ratio
but Demon does 2.5x more dmg no?

[drowsy minnow]

razors have less vulnerabilities, and you get more of them for the cost. demon full dps only applies if target sits still and isn't in something you don't want to FF

[drowsy minnow]

what was the main unit pre demon though, the razorback I presume?

[drowsy minnow]

there are very real differential balance concerns though, eg it IS comparatively easier to get better value from arm south of the top 5% of players

[stray turret]

Can we not just make the Cor T3 units cheaper, smaller and faster? Jug could be just as big and expensive as titan

[drowsy minnow]

not everyone makes that point well (or understands that it is the cause of the point of view differences) but it's very real

[drowsy minnow]

part of the point is T3 is that they're single stronger units

[ember badge]

Bro is so tilted armada bias is being exposed 😂

[brazen heart]

Lmao still discussing

Demon is still S tier unit, leave it as it is

[teal oak]

I still don't think Demon vs Razor is even the problem, I still think it's just in the wider context

demon vs Razor balance/cost = fine, no complaints

core having nothing with similar tonnage to titan/thor that isn't unbearably slow/expensive = a problem (imo)

those are both really strong staples of the Arm lab for a good reason I think

[drowsy minnow]

and that means a broader T3 rebalance to fix, and that's a huge issue that isn't demons

[summer oriole]

i think issue is that core t3 other units are just bad compared to demons

[drowsy minnow]

in the meantime core naval just got shot in the rump by the change, unintentionally

[indigo trellis]

Well everyone be crying core Navy OP at the moment so fair is fair?

[summer oriole]

its pretty strong

[drowsy minnow]

that's not as bad as people think, open sea arm probably better

[indigo trellis]

I'd say it IS better

[drowsy minnow]

but smaller water, core stronger/easier to get value from

[indigo trellis]

There just are not alot of late game naval battles that occur with room to expliot arm advantages on open water

[drowsy minnow]

I've been playing more arm navy myself for various reasons, it's actually stronger midgame than core

if you can hit the right timing window then salamanders are potent, beyond that you're out of luck

[indigo trellis]

I've found the same thing to be true myself, Core feels stronger early, and is more effective at killing Hovers overall, Arm is stronger T2 with room to fight and can transtition to faster t3 amphib to hit land

Maybe just give shiva 76 speed and see what that does

[summer oriole]

lol

[indigo trellis]

Shiva's killing themselves by running into thier own missiles

[drowsy minnow]

making shivas raiders isn't great, but I did test giving them more speed in water, which sort of works

[indigo trellis]

just in water?

[fierce delta]

yeah demon more vulnerable to spybots and shuriken but that doesn't make it glass cannon
in fact since it has a lot more dps, Demon is less vulnerable to dmg because it kills sources of damage against it very fast
It's not fun gameplay to have a Razor on steroids

[drowsy minnow]

the demon needs to be able to compete with razors, and the differential balance makes it better at ground dps. I would happily change it to less of the t3 hero unit if I could, without removing the aspects that core T3 needs for lab balance parity

[brazen heart]

1 demon beats 3 razors 1 by 1 now

But the unit still needs “buffs” 😃

[drowsy minnow]

in an open field if they take turns and have 0 support and demons are free to kite infinitely without worrying about defending anything or friendly fire

demons do too well in their base cases but all these 'golf course duel' scenarios ignore the huge downsides

[spiral knot]

demon kills a razor in a few seconds, thats an overstatement. The damage difference especially at max razorback range is quite significant. I never want to send razors in against demons unless I have overwhelming numbers

[drowsy minnow]

I'll try to tune something to make that more equal, but it might throw out other aspects inadvertantly

[indigo trellis]

Honestly with some of the points people have brought up I am kinda backing off my opinion on Demon amphib as well

[stray turret]

I think it is actually ok right now, would just give demon the amphib

[inland laurel]

I think the decision to remove amphib was by the GDT, i.e. the balance team, im not sure what their actual reasoning is for demons to not have amphib - but having said that I struggle to find any good reason why a better razor should be amphibious

[indigo trellis]

With the points made about FFA and smaller maps, I think I am coming to that conclusion as well

which was certinaly not my opinion an hour ago lol

[drowsy minnow]

GDT didn't say that

[stray turret]

Yes I also changed opinion on that

[drowsy minnow]

naval -> land, T3 parity with rauders, ability to avoid pulsars etc

[inland laurel]

Thank 👍🏻

[indigo trellis]

Should we just be asking for a total rework of Shiva then?

entirely new weapons/stats

[drowsy minnow]

that would make it mirror arm, which I don't want to do either

but a bigger picture T3 rehash is the right fix to it all - but not a quick one

so as I keep saying I'm after a 'least wrong for now' fix that will rebalance lab parity as best possible atm

[indigo trellis]

Well giving demons amphib sounds good for 8v8 standard 2 map gameplay, at the cost of breaking most everything else...

[drowsy minnow]

rauders usually do far worse far sooner on 'those maps'

[stray turret]

Honestly I think with the reworked shiva from your balance pack (faster, tracking misiles), amphib demon, the new T3 Tank and perhaps a smaller, cheaper, faster Jug the T3 would be pretty much balanced

[indigo trellis]

IF you did all that though kinda feels like arm needa behe

[drowsy minnow]

that's sort of the aim, but ... yes
then arm need a doorkicker

thor sort of is that, but is also too good antispam

[stray turret]

Sure - or get rid of Behe altogether to be honest

[drowsy minnow]

boosting thor alpha damage with reduced chaining would be a good step
lets razors handle the spam, as they should

[indigo trellis]

I thought we just did that?!

[stray turret]

me too

[drowsy minnow]

very slightly

it would mean thors needed more support to do well, but with basically anything behind them, would be behemoths lite

imo, the real arm doorkicker already exists, but just isn't used that much

and it isn't even T3, but that's another debate itself

[drowsy minnow]

they have good usage, but are a weird one on several levels. too big for the lab and the small lasers usually mistarget

[naive shell]

behemoths are funny and that's good enough reason to exist

[stray turret]

sure they do, but its hard to balance it

[austere turtle]

behemoths are usefull if your opponent porcs like crazy

[stray turret]

and the Tank would be better 🙂

[austere turtle]

if a game goes on for way too long and both sides just porc the behemoth is the best unit

[civic quest]

Shiva doesnt need rework

[indigo trellis]

Why not?

[austere turtle]

you may be able to walk past the behemoth with your titan but the titan will just walk into a wall of pulsars and die while the behemoth will knock your pulsars down

[civic quest]

Shiva already beat most of arm t3

[inland laurel]

I agree with Austin that Shiva is in a good place. I don’t think the burden of proof is on the Shiva to prove that it’s in a good place, but on others who feel differently

[indigo trellis]

Respectfully, I am just looking for your take on the topic.

[inland laurel]

I can’t just say “mace needs rework” and then when people ask why, my response is “why not”

[drowsy minnow]

(I mean it kind of does)

[indigo trellis]

Well to be fair, I have also previously spoken about why I think Shiva is awful beyond just syaing that I think its awful

[austere turtle]

the problem is just that the marauder is way to usefull while shiva is just a normal unit

[brazen heart]

Imagine a razorback emerging from the water in any normal 8 v 8 rotation map , well now imagine it with 2.5x dps and more hp

[indigo trellis]

Alot of you are much much better a tthe game than me so im just wanting to know

[drowsy minnow]

rauders are more efficient damage sources than razorbacks, and hit sooner

[orchid raft]

shiva has good cannons, good range, good price, good bp, its a teezar but cheaper, and comes with a free arbiter rocket

[austere turtle]

it shoots faster then arbiter even

[brazen heart]

Marauders die to t2 popups, they also are super weak to fight unless you have op micro and numbers

[indigo trellis]

OK...but in its role as an amphib....unit of whatever kind. I think it tends to die before it even gets out of the water more often than not. the only thing it has going for it as an amphib unit is the fact it at least has 1 functional weapon inside a plasma shield

[brazen heart]

Shiva is better frontline pusher from an amphibious attack

Marauder is a raider

[indigo trellis]

So we are cool with Core essentialy NOT having a t3 amphib unit?

[austere turtle]

the issue is that reinforcements tend to arrive before the shiva does anything wich is allso why salamander is way more usefull then turtles

[brazen heart]

Salamander best t2 amphibious raider in the game

[indigo trellis]

Yeah my bad I just realized i was unclear

[civic quest]

Shiva's creating a different front that the defending team has to deal with should be enough value

[indigo trellis]

I'll send shivas front line all day, but I wont even consider using them to flank via water in most cases without a forward lab

I guess my whole thing about t3, is that Arm has imo, a mostly free hail mary with being able to get Mara's to anywhere on the map before you can even get a core t3 to front line

So they get this free attack that more or less in unpunishable by coretex

I felt like Demons solved that issue when they were amphib, without amphib I feel like they are forced to be to predictable and thus the free play from Arm still exsists

[austere turtle]

choosing between maras and shivas is choosing between attacking eco or attacking units

one is just more usefull in that case

[indigo trellis]

I dunno maybe I am just wrong about that or not playing at a high enough level to understand why its not true

[fierce delta]

it's really not the same at all

[austere turtle]

opening a new front is not as usefull as hitting eco before a frontline gets drawn

[brazen heart]

To stop demon without a commander you need insane amount of resources

[austere turtle]

Damage and hp should be open to be changed if they give it amphib again i think amphib units should have downsides

1 demon is 6 marauders when someone splits them theyre allso very difficult to stop

[brazen heart]

There are a lot of units that do shit to demons , like bulls, and they just melt in seconds , while bulls fight pretty decently against marauders

[austere turtle]

i dont think demons are perfectly balanced right now but i would propably lean towards making them more espensive and giving them amphib

[fierce delta]

marauders can't brute force into t2 units, even some t1 units they can't
Demon just goes in and wreck everything
Only emp can counter them
Even Commander melt in a nano second

It's obviously not in harmony with the game

[austere turtle]

there should propably be some units that are more resistant to the demon like heavy tanks

[spiral knot]

i think reducing demon range and dmg while increasing speed could make it more interesting, though that would probably make it a much closer counterpart to razors which is not ideal. But it's current range+dps is pretty overtuned vs other t3

[austere turtle]

the discription on the website still says it has a range of 500 but the chart says its 700

[indigo trellis]

Website unit stats are in general inaccurate.

[austere turtle]

yeah i just mean its not set in stone

[drowsy minnow]

this is similar to what I want to try, with some other offsets, but the whole point of the current balancing was to -not- make it a 'core razorback', which that sort of does

[austere turtle]

it should be its own unit if anything it should take inspiration from the fiend

letting it blow up without wreckage and dealing dmage on death

[drowsy minnow]

going t3 fiend would be worse, would mean it needed even less dps

would be OP in loblobs, bad in mortal realms, which is the opposite of the pattern needed

[indigo trellis]

Shiva's get 70 speed, it gets Tiger guns instead of thor guns, remove the missile arty and give it a cataphract laser.

[spiral knot]

thats its AA range I think

[austere turtle]

i like the shiva its just not comparable to marauder in utility

i like it especially because it combines the arbiter rocket with a bunch of other stuff

[indigo trellis]

Honestly the rocket is about the only thing I find useful about it in alot of cases

I think Erbos lake is essentialy the perfect Shiva map

[inland laurel]

Flats and forest r good Shiva map

Lots and lots of t1 porc to killings

[civic quest]

Shiva good unit when making forward lab but I see many people build shiva and make them run corner to corner

[austere turtle]

its a slow siege mech that tends to end itself when facing spam

[inland laurel]

Unless supported by spam 😅

[austere turtle]

so if its not at the enemy door its not usefull

[inland laurel]

Or microbe to not shoot at spam

[zenith fjord]

They'll also kill any spam you send with them.

[spiral knot]

not if it's salamanders

[austere turtle]

anyone who plays arbiters knows you have to manually aim them to make good use of them but arbiters are never alone

with shivas its hard to see what unit should support them

[drowsy minnow]

in games I've seen, anything you try to send just gets tick hugged and the shivas delete it

[civic quest]

Juno is op

[inland laurel]

I‘ll usually have 1-2 t1 bot labs making grunts and the odd trasher on repeat with Juno for scouts

[civic quest]

twitcher ball for twinguard support

• reclaim value

[indigo trellis]

Spy bots do just fine as long as you are not attacking into a spam river

I dunno i'll just come out and say I want a Mara esque Core T3 raider

it doesnt need to be AS good, but it needs enough speed to not need a forward lab to be usful

I've had some good success with Salamanders both in FFA and in general 8v8 but they really lack punch late game

[austere turtle]

yeah maybe demon isnt the best unit to take marauders place but core needs a unit like that

[zenith fjord]

There is an alternative: nerf Marauder hard

[austere turtle]

maybe demon is more the same role as the thor

[spiral knot]

marauder already mediocre at best on all but like 3 maps

[civic quest]

I don’t think cor t3 needs an exact marauder counterpart

[indigo trellis]

I think you all should give late game Mara spam a try

I've been able to run them right through lines of heavy t3 late game

[civic quest]

On what maps?

[indigo trellis]

The most "impressive" one was on Ice scream

IWC was in front of me and it was bascialy a thor/titans/behe stalemate

and I switched off of thros and just dumped everything into Mara spam and micro'd it like they were grunts

and I broke through everything, Ive done it 3 times total.

[civic quest]

Was there any porc or air player with emp?

[indigo trellis]

There was....but I don't think they really responded to me in time

[zenith fjord]

Even without the amphib, they're still a bull on legs that's what, the third-fastest non-scout land unit in the game? Behind only blitz and sprinter?

[indigo trellis]

If you micro them they don't take alot of damage even in spam

I ran right through Yequi and Tank_Destroyer with it

and they had Behe's and thors by the dozen with full t1 spam, it was like 45+min

[spiral knot]

They are not bulls on legs, they are much much weaker than bulls in any kind of fight

[drowsy minnow]

or any misc chaf unit, pawns, grunts, etc

[civic quest]

Twitcher ball for twinguards

[drowsy minnow]

twitchers not famed for their amphibious capacity

[civic quest]

Hover cons for twinguard

[drowsy minnow]

wonder what letting the naval engies make hovercons would do

could ease some of the transitory issues

[indigo trellis]

I don't think hovers have the punch...or the need to really be close to whatever they are going to hit

[drowsy minnow]

it would help let cor siege land more effectively from sea

[maiden cliff]

just make hoverlab if you want hovercon

[drowsy minnow]

but as for early t3 force projection from sea, still kind of dead ended I suspect

[civic quest]

hover lab also helps create spam for shiva

[indigo trellis]

Well, if I am core sea and I want to hit land, I think my option right now is amphib lab into Salmanders

[drowsy minnow]

parrows need to be more competent

[indigo trellis]

I might send 1-2 parrows behind a wave of salamanders

I've done that on angel a time or two

Shiva's are to slow or to expensive with the t3 lab cost to really use if you win your navy lane at T1

you can generally afford to move right into salamnders and a parrow or two

without having to go for full t2 eco

[drowsy minnow]

early on, core have reasonable projection abilities, as long as enemy air lets you do it

it's after that stage it plummets into a void, which mirrors the problems on land unfortunately

[indigo trellis]

If enemy air is core, the T1 amphib bot can at least sort of help

they are really slow to use them with salamanders in general, but you can at least kite back to them

and it all comes from amphib lab

Ever since salamnders, Ive started using core amphib lab when its practical instead of trying to tech for t3

[drowsy minnow]

I did make a version of the parrow with a light AA attached

same time as the croc change, but it wasn't included in the end

[indigo trellis]

that would be really nice, cause the salay's raid, and then I come in with the Parrow to more or less pick off statics or anything on high ground that the salamnders couldnt hit

[drowsy minnow]

I kind of feel that dgun drops are just as much a parrow risk as it is for crocs, moreso due to higher value target if anything

the heavier & slower amphibs being a support hub for the faster ones seems a good idea, especially for core

[indigo trellis]

Well Salamnders are good at killing coms, they have enough range and speed to pick them off, the parrows are more for cleanup the way I do it, and I dont mind having 1-2 AA bots creeping along with them

but you really only get 1 or at the very most 2 attacks in before t3 in general

[drowsy minnow]

there's a very small window where you can sometimes get away with a 'clown car' amphib assault, as long as you do minimal econ behind it

but you need a ton to do slowly what rauders can do in a single speedy unit

and after that window, core amphib is basically late game siege or bust

[indigo trellis]

Generally, I am winning Sea at T1, eating my sea lab for an amphib lab, eating surviving frigates for salamanders, getting 5-8 salamnders, 1 parrow and 2 AA bots and hitting them

[drowsy minnow]

sounds like you're setting yourself up to die to a hover assault if you yolo it that hard

[indigo trellis]

yeah, its alot of risk, but it does minimze the time they have to get mines/t2 lab functioning

[drowsy minnow]

but would give you a metal spike, yes, high risk of donating it if/when it fails though

[indigo trellis]

Its double suck if you don't have land eco too

cause you wont even be able to buy a viable t2 con

[drowsy minnow]

indeed

I'd probably say you should T2 sea first for safety tbh

[indigo trellis]

So far angelcrossing, isthmus, and Jade empress are the maps Ive done it on

[drowsy minnow]

however we're way off of demons now though

[indigo trellis]

Heh well...if I had amphib demons I wouldn't be doing that though

[drowsy minnow]

demon window is later, salas you still have that timing slot for

[inland laurel]

Cor under water Lab also make salamander for anti spam

[drowsy minnow]

as I said somewhere earlier, amphib power pattern is pincer -> sala -> rauder -> demon -> titan

[indigo trellis]

RIP demon lol

[austere turtle]

how well do demons trade with thors?

[drowsy minnow]

reality or golf course battle?

[austere turtle]

without emp

[inland laurel]

I like the term golf course battle

[drowsy minnow]

the demons can kite away but if they try to hold something, eg a front door, trade evenly to badly

[indigo trellis]

If I can get flanking damage on the thors I will almost always push my demons into them

[austere turtle]

i think the thor is a good measurmend of t3 being op or not

[drowsy minnow]

thor is OP itself though, at least in average lobbies

[austere turtle]

thats what i mean

[drowsy minnow]

less so in loblobs,they prefer things they can micro more

[indigo trellis]

Demons can dodge the emp missle, and as long as you can ge tthe flanking damage bonus demons will kill thors 2 or 3 to 1 handidly

if they have more than 5 thors tho.....it becomes a risk

[drowsy minnow]

in a supported push though, and less than optimal terrain, demons can't do that usually

chokes also make it more likely the emps will hit

[austere turtle]

at this point the question is should we nerf marauder thor and demon or buff other t3

[drowsy minnow]

as I keep saying it needs a holistic T3 rework
but that is not a solution -now-

[indigo trellis]

Nerf Mara's speed to like 83, buff shiva speed to 65 or 67

[austere turtle]

i think maras would be fine if they would cost 1200 metal

[indigo trellis]

Razor backs can still catch shiva's at 65

83 Mara's don't essentialy out run EVERYTHING that can actualy hurt them under water

66 Shiva Speed is 3 less than Razor back so you have the same Pawn/Grunt speed split

[drowsy minnow]

60 speed with a water traversal boost might work

would let them keep up with salamander support better

[indigo trellis]

With the water boost Im down

60 is plenty fast for shiva on land

If you can make a unit faster in water than on land that is a really nice bandaide

Can they keep the speed boost for like 1-1.5 seconds as they exit the water?

[drowsy minnow]

not really

[indigo trellis]

k

58 land 71 sea?

Honestly....give turtles the same treatment.

amphibian balance pack v1 lol......

[zenith fjord]

At this rate we're just gonna end up with a full amphib roster. 😛

[indigo trellis]

Well....then at least people will be happy they no longer HAVE to play sea right lol

[drowsy minnow]

in an ideal world theatre transitions should be possible and relatively seamless

one of the many strengths of BAR is the total war aspect, we should embrace that whereever possible

[zenith fjord]

Just need somebody who isn't me to fix transport ships.

Amphib wouldn't be such a big deal if we had landing craft.

[orchid raft]

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=854be66593b3cbdf77c075443dc7f8c8

[austere turtle]

i mean if they are offloading units 1 by 1 you are just banking on your enemy not detecting you while you are doing that i think even shiva would propably be bettwer for land invasions, i do like the idea of the transport ship but i think its going to be hard to make it as usefull as amphibs

[orchid raft]

how do i counter 14min demon? thoughts and prayers?

[spiral knot]

with ur own 14m demon ofc

[drowsy minnow]

about same as you would a rauder rush I'd imagine. rushed they have no support or radar so a dgun is fully possible

failing that, basically any emp, pulsar, long range anything, air assault can work

[spiral knot]

you can stop marauder rush with ticks

[austere turtle]

its kind of stupid that units cant just step on ticks if youve ever seen a juggernaut getting blocked by them

[drowsy minnow]

there was a stomp attack for that reason

unsure why it was mothballed

[stray turret]

Shiva should be faster and the rocket should track a bit I would for it to be meaningful. It is in the balance pack I think, though the speed buff is perhaps too low. Demon is OK now I would say, just add ampuib to it and its a good counter to rauder balance wise. To counter Thor cor desperately needs the tank. The tanks Imho should be best units in T3 per metal on flat land

[urban mantle]

I think hobo was right all along. This thread really is just the communism thread in disguise.

@hazy urchin Do your thing 🙂

[inland laurel]

ya this thread could do with a closing

[teal oak]

idk prolly like 3 tzars to be fair :p maybe 4-5?

or a 15 minute thor

[near osprey]

you know he has more cortex games than you right?

actually i dont know anyone whos any good who only plays 1 faction

most people choose by map/position and which lab would be best

[near osprey]

people ask for arm/core cons all the time to do mixed strats

pretty pointless to only play 1 faction unlike other rts

[stray turret]

That does not mean the factions should not be balanced. I think most people will actually prefer one faction to learn its units properly and figure out best strategies with it. Even more experienced folks. Not everyone is/has ambitions to become pro

This thread can be closed but another one “buff Cor T3 should be opened”

[near osprey]

proper balancing would be good but it's just not the state the game is in, and i doubt it'll ever be completely balanced for every map and position

[austere turtle]

well there are some people who think demon is op wich may or may not be true

hard to say when we have units like the thor really

[pine snow]

yeah it's "op" in the sense that razors, marauders and thors are op

so, really, it's fine...

[teal oak]

if you look at, for eg, Thor vs Jugg, you really start to see why Core is shit. Thor costs LESS than 1/3 of Jug Metal, and yet 3 thors have more combined health, same dps, and move at about 2* the speed of a jugg. AND you can get them out earlier to get value from them quicker.

and yet core is meant to be the 'tanky' faction

but it's big T3 29000 metal bot gives shit metal/hp compared to a super fast Arm tank

make it make sense

[orchid raft]

just had another rosetta game, only t3 unit was demon, and a stray catapult

[teal oak]

I think we established Demon isn't weak @orchid raft

no??

[orchid raft]

really? i want it nerfed is what im saying

[teal oak]

I think that's fine as long as other core T3 gets buffed

if you want demon to offer similar value to Razor, I get it, but then I think Jugg should offer similar value to Thor, therefore I think it's health should be increased and its speed doubled.

And if that sounds fucking stupid, bear in mind that it the exact value Thor offers rn, here today.

to make it even better more unfair, it's 3 dgun targets instead of 1!

I have seriously come to the conclusion that this thread isn't really about Demons, it might feel like it is, but it isn't. The sentiment about wanting Demons to revert to pre nerf is more because of the overall picture of Core vs Arm t3.

[pine snow]

it's been said many times, but the xtra cost for Jug (compared to Behemoth too) is that it's basically a nuke walking into your base

but like you said the issue is that shiva is trash, behemoth and juggs are barely useful, if at all

Cortex has 2 great T3 units now, Demons and Dragons

[teal oak]

the problem is the nuke never gets there

it's so slow it gets destroyed loooong before it reaches you

[teal oak]

yeah, the trouble is one of these is an Air unit, the other is a fast DPS bot, Core has nothing at all that can actually soak up some hits whilst applying some push pressure, which is how the faction is meant to be balanced 😐

Behemoth health is useless if the other team has 20 minutes to kill it before it can reach you, in some ways it has less effective HP than for example a Thor too

how many times can a row of laser artillery shoot a behemoth before it gets in range, compared to some thors? etc

[pine snow]

well for behemoths you just get out the commander

[teal oak]

yeah I mean, even if it wasn't a walking D gun target, it still has all those other problems

[zenith fjord]

Eh, behemoths have so much HP that they already basically only die to dguns. They could be outright invulnerable to non-dgun weapons and it wouldn’t change their balance much.

[teal oak]

core badly needs like a slightly slower/tankier version of the Thor or something*

[pine snow]

behemoths are more useful on D tbh

[teal oak]

*that doesn't cost twice as much because reasons

[pine snow]

let's be glad the demon is a good unit. Kargs w ere fixed a while back too. and catapults are useful and fun

now, we'll see if the shiva buff and the new cortex T3 tank are enough

[teal oak]

fingers crossed for the t3 tank, is it in the balance pack already?

[pine snow]

no it's nowhere afaik, not released yet

[teal oak]

oh

[austere turtle]

i think the jugg rocket launcher could be buffed a little bit the explosion is underwhelming

[stray turret]

@drowsy minnow is working on the Tank, I am not sure how far is he. Shiva is improved in the balance pack - just slight speed buff and tracking rocket as far as I know. Imho Demon is good now no need to buff, only add amphib. My opinion is still the Jug should be made cheaper and faster. Then it would be balanced.

[drowsy minnow]

tank is not part of the immediate picture

[austere turtle]

we need the new t3 rework thread lol i did it now as well

[drowsy minnow]

a thread on it would just kick up infinite arguments atm
I know what I need to do as the basis for it, just need time & energy

[stray turret]

Yeah lets not do the thread yet, Hornet can create a feedback thread when he makes some changes / introduces the Tank or whatever like he did with e.g. the T1 bots change.. For now I think this thread can be indeed closed as it is clear we just know Cor T3 needs Buff and further discussion at this point is perhaps pointless.

[lunar fern]

Just remove anti-air from marauders. You can't have a fast apmphibious raider T3 unit that can just kite all day with the ability to shoot at air as well

[drowsy minnow]

oh you can and it's fine, as long as only Arm get it

[near osprey]

well why, salamanders cant get stunned at all

[drowsy minnow]

all amphib raiders are EMP resistant

rauder only one that isn't but the HP pool and AA makes it so to core only

whereas stillettos are free shutdown

[stray turret]

Rauder would be fine, if Cor got something like that as well.. For some reason people were unhappy with Demon being amphib because it made Cor T3 usefull

[jaunty talon]

Having demon amphib was not good, like shivas already amphib. Yknow honestly demons are fine as is, maybe nerf range to be 575 like for razorback, salamanders are like t2 rauders

[pine snow]

Marauder is a good unit. Not OP. T3 units are supposed to be the best.

I've said it many times, but the only issue is that all Arm T3s are great and only 2 Core T3s are great...

what prevents developpers from making this THE top priority, is that Cortex has 2 great hidden T3s in their T2 labs : mammoths and dragons

[stray turret]

What is the other Cor T3 that is good? I think at the moment it is only Demon. And shiva being so slow is crap, unless it gets speed buff it’s amphib us not so useful, definitely not as rauder

[pine snow]

come on, kargs are quite good now

capapults are borderline I would say

not bad but not great like their Vanguard counterpart. You got to protect catapults from everything, while vanguards you can put them behind a cliff and use as mortar, or put them on top of mountains like on Forge

[cosmic atlas]

Like people play the faction that is supposed to be slow and then complain about units being slow

[pine snow]

developpers will disagree that "cortex is supposed to be slow" they said so several times

[cosmic atlas]

Well arm is described as fast

So since we have 3 factions i guess cor is slow

[wise elbow]

Iirc core should be brute force

[pine snow]

if u read that : https://www.beyondallreason.info/cortex they say it's more about artillery and firepower and armada is said to be more about direct contact firepower. Brute force vs tactical finesse they say

but technically armada has plenty of slow units too : sharpshooters, starlights, welders, vanguards...

what developpers seem to want imo, is that people stop thinking core = slow, which is partially why the demon has been added to the T3 roster

but if you want to see cortex fast units, well you got fiends, grunts, tigers (faster than bulls), banishers (faster than starlights), and don't forget that tzars are 30% faster than fatboys, their counterpart.

it is mainly a T3 issue imo, because marauders, razors and even thors are quite fast

I think it's no coincidence that a thor used to be faster than all cortex T3 (including cataphracts), and now demons are faster.

[stray turret]

well T3 Arm is just overall better than Cor T3, Demon being first on par with arm.. People just seem to want arm to be better, so they complain about demon

[pine snow]

Dunno why people want Armada to be better, unless they played total annihilation (where Core were the villains)

[cosmic atlas]

Idk cor seems to be played much more than arm and a winrate graph i saw recently had a big advantage for cor

[cosmic atlas]

Also if they want this they are not doing great

Arm seems much better for fast raids all game long

[pine snow]

no, if you go T2 bots cortex has the advantage with fiends imo

but that's mainly coz sprinters are trash

[cosmic atlas]

They are but are still faster i think

And i have seen them work as pure eco raiders

[jaunty talon]

Lol we are going on a tangent. Like t3 cor is fine, like there are jugs and behemoths, which are good if used well

[cosmic atlas]

Most games dont go that late

[drowsy minnow]

ignore that

[pine snow]

even if they do, people would rather go mass dragons, mass bombing raid, mass demons, or lolcanon

[drowsy minnow]

the key point in those games is that the demons/dragons aren't the win condition, it was the afus pile in the backline. those units are just efficient ambassadors and therefore doing their job

[stray turret]

The starting arm T3 is way better and even when game lasts till someone can affort a Jugg, the larger number of Titans which are moreover faster will just beat them

[pine snow]

well when you start arm T3 you can get a razor pretty quickly massively influencing the game

if you get a karg, it has a lot less impact unless it's a very hilly map like angels crossing

[civic quest]

Shivas are pretty good

[drowsy minnow]

usually too slow, and ticks hard counter

[spiral knot]

karg is not a rush unit, its for using as an all-terrain cause its flat ground fighting is pretty poor for its cost. You rush out shivas or demons which will both influence the game similarly to razors

[naive shell]

karganeths are actually very high stat for cost but ironically it's their handling characteristics that makes them kinda suck

[brazen heart]

Marauder is not only a raider , marauder is a fast bull

I have broke millón of frontlines with marauder kiting

[stray turret]

The worst T3 imho

[civic quest]

I think they are pretty strong

[stray turret]

Compared to what? T1? :))

[civic quest]

Other t2 and t3

[stray turret]

I am curious .. which T3 you think is worse than that (don’t count Cata)

[civic quest]

Not necessarily worse but shivas can beat marauders and razorbacks

And kargs

[spiral knot]

and thors and titans

[civic quest]

It gets harder with thors but titans beat shiva

That’s what my mentor told me

[spiral knot]

mentors cant be trusted

[brazen heart]

Shivas are super strong im with Austin Texas

[naive shell]

I won't lie it is a little funny that only like 5 people think titans are super op and they are like the top 5 players in the game

[brazen heart]

Ye titans are op

[naive shell]

obviously people of different skills and playstyles will think different units are op, but I've never seen such a distinction as with titans

[civic quest]

Titans can op kite all the units

[brazen heart]

You just don’t throw a unit and expect it to win the game for you ( like guys do with Thors on strait )

The thing with titans is that they start to become a thing when you have numbers

They line formation is totally insane ( it’s like shiva push but way stronger )

[naive shell]

I am a huge titan fan too yea, they just have some pushing power that nothing else really compares to

[brazen heart]

Juggernaut can do similar the issue of jugg is that it needs to commit to unpleasant positions cause slow af speed

Also jugg dps is a joke most of the time , you just build jugg as a walking nuke

[spiral knot]

I think it's cause they're incredibly weak alone, which is not the case for most other t3

a solo titan can easily be mopped up with less than its cost in t2 or even t1 units

[naive shell]

yea but single titan breaks porc easily for razorback follow up

[brazen heart]

I look titans as a t3 starlight , so I take care of them similar to starlight , you have the flexibility to dive if necessary for a leak

Well Titan gets wrecked by pulsar forests

Only thing that is good to tank that is behemoth