#More Defense Focus (Turrets/Walls/...)

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

patent stump
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More Defense Focus (Turrets/Walls/...)

last solar
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I like the basebuilding in BAR a lot, but I get your point. Do you have any ideas on what should be done to make defences a bit more interesting?

ebon flicker
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I think it's true for Cortex, but not for Armada. The pulsar is super useful, I see it being used all the time. Sadly Cortex has the bulwark which is too short range to be effective against T3. Tac nukes require too much micro. So right now, defending with Cortex against T3 is just mammoths, banishers, and hopefully dragons now that they're useful.

drowsy grove
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The design principle is to defend with offensive.
Also if you’re on tier two and you let your opponent tech to tier 3 it means that you’ve been too passive which let the oponent achieve the victory condition

ebon flicker
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also, the game is way too poor in ressources to allow for both defense and offense. You simply have to choose, and since defense doesn't win you games unless you build a lolcannon or 8 nuke launchers, then people simply build units. Sometimes you'll see T2 pop up turrets, they're quite useful, and pulsars are great if you wanna tower creep, or defend a position you're leaving to attack elsewhere. But with 8v8 lane confrontations, where you're allowed 6-12 mexes, there's no way you can afford to build defenses. Some people will be able to turtle well, but it's mostly coz the opposition didn't scout properly and let them. Play 2v2 or 4v4 on the same maps, and I think you'll see more turrets being used. Otherwise you need groups of units to defend, and you need to micro all of those, not easy.

high nymph
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It doesn't feel like that to me. It's map dependent, but wherever defensive lines tend to stabilize, defensive structure offer a great value.
I agree that Core lacks a real Pulsar counterpart tho -- Bulwark range makes its use limited, and it doesn't counter T3 units nearly as good. Maybe reworking it would be the way? Or perhaps adding a new defensive unit to cover that role and making the Bulwark cheaper and stronger anti-swarm but (even) worse at stopping single T3 units (that might require adding something similar to Armada, perhaps a stronger version of the Dragon's Claw, a T2 lightning tower)

last solar
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I struggle to think of a pulsar equivalent that fits with cortex's theme... perhaps a high-damage, pulsar range giant cannon can do the trick?

ebon flicker
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technically Cortex has the ultimate turret : behemoth. But you need T3 lab

patent stump
ebon flicker
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I think on the developers point of view, they want to reward using units, microing them, rather than turtling and ressource management

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you'll see that a lot of turrets are very niche, not to say useless

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T1 heavy lasers barely get used, T1 plasma cannons are NEVER used coz they're pretty useless on defense, then in T2 it's long range plasma that's never used (the single shot one, not the ragnaroks/calamities)

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and with AA, people use fighters or flak, no long range AA or barely

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there are some stuff being fixed though, but I don't think the main focus will ever be on defending with turrets

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if you enjoy turrets, I suggest playing raptors or scavengers

bright light
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Encouraging defensive play = everyone spamming afus because exponential eco

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And then the "strategy" part of the game is removed because you skipped past most of the stages of the game into mashing behemoths and juggs into each other

wintry turret
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The only thread I think I’ll ever post NO to. It is so easy to turtle, porc, builds static defense and just eco in this game. It’s boring gameplay. Nobody likes the sim city endgame of supreme strait. Games don’t need to last 90+ minutes and when they do, it’s a race to see whose pc can you crash on the other team first.

The building system is fun in BAR. You got that right in your OP. Can it be improved? Yeah probably. But the goal shouldn’t be more static defense equals a better improved building system. More static defense equals just more of the same building (sim city mass AFUS). Not better.

I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with you more @bright light , boy is hitting the nail on the head… twice

bright light
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Well, saying nobody likes the sim city endgame of supreme is an exaggeration, or else some other map would've become "the default 8v8 map", but it's certainly anti-fun to many, many people for defend->afus spam to be optimal play

scenic spade
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Well I feel like people are using bad game design as an excuse
Long range is king in this game vs defenses.
Its not like defenses counter long rangee,

Rocketbots counter all defenses t1 except HLT and Plasma ART, both of which dont get used because Veh art and missle trucks counter HLT and Plasma is too expensive.

Weak Dmg Defenses , Weak HP defenses, Low range Defenses, Expensive Defenses. HIGH BP Required Defense's.

All of these shouldnt be active at once for all your defenses. (not saying they are, its just split between everything)

I get why turtle strats are looked down upon, and I understand not wanting it to be meta to spam towers , But to a certain extent, There isnt a really tower or building that exists that a unit cost for cost cant do better. if you dont want towers to be better than any units fine, but at least make them fulfil their roles they are supposed to fill better.

clever jackal
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static defense is good
really good, when built in the right spot at the right time. honestly it's cheap so if you are winning you can throw down llt forests and it makes it very difficult for your opponent to knock them down and come back

bright light
wintry turret
scenic spade
snow terrace
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recheck your numbers

scenic spade
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Those numbers are actually accurate, but I shoud have put damage ranges too thats what i meant too put not vision ranges, Although, the official bar website literally says missle trucks counter HLT in groups so point proven there

in larger packs Lashers can even take down Heavy Laser Turrets.

bright light
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yes, and in larger packs razorbacks can even take down behemoths. that doesn't mean it's something they seek out opportunities to do so. Again, this is the same website which describes cortex using descriptors entirely unrelated to cortex.

patent stump
# wintry turret The only thread I think I’ll ever post NO to. It is so easy to turtle, porc, bui...

i think it is the game design in general. in company of heroes you can counter all infantry if you just build one mg bunker, the enemy has to either play vehicles or micro the infantry to throw grenades/shoot rockets from a trench or behind cover, or if an enemy has artillery you send stealth unity to take it out. (just a rough example)

ofc it's a completely different game please don't quote me
and you can do this here too
but i think doesn't matter what you build in this game you kind of win with just throwing high numbers of units and not strategic plays
this is how it feels for me at least
if i build some huge defense it's endgame, and after 10 matches it is kind of frustrating to always rebuild everything from scratch and if i manage to make a good defense it get's destroyed with one shot

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btw i love the shield override to bounce/absorb everything, i think it makes building defense less frustrating

wintry turret
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When I first started playing BAR, I sky rocketed to 30+ because I got really effective at the eco role. But guess what happened when I played bizmuth, or any lane map that pit me directly against another player.

This is part of the problem with this mentality of playing only two maps that are very niche. When you get to that point and want to play more than 2 maps, it’s going to be a wake up call.

What I’m saying is, your comment “You win with just throwing high numbers of units and not strategic plays”, comes off like you just play 2 maps because if you played maps like bizmuth then you’d know that getting to the t1 spam phase is rare. And you can’t balance a game off of such a underdeveloped experience

patent stump
wintry turret
patent stump
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i always host custom experimental matches

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because i can't build much in normal lobbies lol

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also you mean something else, the game is not focused on building defense in general

high nymph
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Parsy no offense but... Chad ain't wrong.
Most of your points make little sense. You probably haven't explored (or learned) the game well enough yet