#OK GUYS COMMUNISM is getting out of hand

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fair flame
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yeah, that says more about t2 naval and the mixed roll of a growing land eco being able to effectively counter a naval economy and units 'at sea' without Naval of their own.
It's one area as a player I struggle with. Won sea; seems ok; sunddenly it's not OK and my resources into trying to secure a sea or get t2 were not optimal.

If the naval player is on 150m/sec and the enemy eco and enemy air are on 500m/sec combined plus 150m/s or more from the enemy naval lane which has eco'd up. It's just a battle of mass.

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At the end of the day you need to project force into somewhre that isnt the sea. Hopefully that player you're boosting helped or boosted you during the phase where you had to secure with navy. I really don't see what the problem is there. Teamwork.
have we got the notion that we should be directly effecting the outcome at all times with 7 other players to work with and 8 players actively trying to counter this.

long ridge
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Plus:
-Resource sharing is fun and is teamwork
-smooth gameplay
-dedicated resource support playstyle takes awareness

Minus:
-forces you to play boosting and lab sharing at high lv. Other strategies simply are disadvantaged.
-tends to heavily compress the t1 and t2 phases as anyone can "upgrade" their resources to higher tier once a lab and BP is created
-boosting is disproportionately powerful: instant, free, and hard to scout since you could see only part of their army at a time
-hurts strategic diversity on non-lane maps or even lane maps where there is a most important lane (becomes a boost-fest on that lane, neglecting/stalling the slow lanes)

To factor in the plus while avoiding the minuses, I suggested sharing tax for first 20 minutes. After 20 minutes any crazy things can happen, and game should have naturally gotten a chance to get to t3. it could also be a t2 trade hub structure ig...

-OP strategy of giving resources/take from low os player to top OS and have them play two adjacent lanes
-on non-lane maps, a player may just be a battery or micro'er. YMVW. at that point is the player really experience the full RTS?

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there's a moba game called heros of the storm where you can play a 2 in 1 hero called chogall. the Gall player doesn't move their hero and just sits in a turret and uses their ability with the other player. yes it's teamwork but if all you play is gall you don't play a portion of the game. no positioning, scouting, etc. The difference is chogall is a off-meta hero in that game, whereas in BAR the "battery" role is the optimal strategy. So it's not just a fun mode, depending on the map you are forced to do that to be competitive.

timber mist
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1 of comupdate goals was to extend t1 phase, once people adapted to the update everyone started doing consul rush, then mausers coop meta, rip

left night
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One of my pet theories is that as the playerbase gets better average length of 8v8 games will decrease. Although it is hard to sort out from the noise of the various maps popular in 8v8.

long ridge
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an effective push usually takes at least 2 players. plp don't know what to do so they make porc / slow t3 units and afus
so game never ends

scarlet timber
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Any change risks disappointing everyone if you never changed anything because you where scared of people not liking it you would be out of a game I am merely trying to say that we can not know if this is a problem unless you collect data and ask around and if you find it to be a problem it might be worth looking into solving

subtle tangle
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It's kinda like chess. It seems like there are many possible moves, tons of different ways to play the game. But at the top competitive level, there really are only a small handful of viable moves. It becomes very mechanical and kinda boring as people memorize the game out to 25+ moves. This seemingly open-ended game becomes incredibly constricted.

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Take Strait for example. Let's say you're frontline. You're not getting boosted, so you have to build up some power. That 1 windmill or solar coulda been a grunt. Enemy is getting boosted. They are one grunt ahead of you. If you try to contest the center metal while down a grunt, you'll suddenly find yourself down several grunts after losing a trade. Now enemy is scooping up all the center metal, which can be used to push you back with a larger army (or sent to geo to boost Mausers. A few minutes pass and you're struggling to hold your little plot of land with your meager army while t2 is on their way to send you back to the stone age.

fair flame
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Even then at like 3k to 2k it's possible for the 2k income to turn it around; if they act with their current resources rather than allow that disparity in income continue

wraith lintel
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not judging, just posting this

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"this is fine"

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thats a sub 5 minute bull moving to front

image.png
empty rain
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Did the enemy team scout? Have they tried two backline air players with bombing runs? Sacrifice one sea to counter-share? All in T1 tank rush?

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Like, I get that it's scary, but maybe straits' actual dominant strategic play just isn't the dominant role meta

wraith lintel
# empty rain Did the enemy team scout? Have they tried two backline air players with bombing ...

thats not the issue. All the time people suggest "scouting" which is valid to a degree. The issue is that

  • scouting can in reality only be done by the air player and if he commits to scouting (= more than one scout because one will be downed by any random t1 aa), it means he cant do fighters, or transport, or whatever. Its basically a huge gamble that only pays off if the enemy is actually gambling as well
  • Even if stuff like this is scouted, it is very likely TOO LATE to do something about it.

I have to say its mind boggling that you suggest to double air bomb. That makes no sense whatsoever. There are 8 players in each team and as you can tell just by these 2 screenshots there is a plethora of ways to "team up". You are basically suggesting to try a random counter to a random strategy. Try rolling a dice twice and get a six each time. Thats the odds of your random counter being anble to actually counter the latest buzz of sharing.

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also i dont judge, i just shared those screenshots a) because its curious and b) to show the actual gravity of it (on that map)

carmine vessel
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Communism OP and one of the few good mechanics that is left in BAR these days, separates scrubs vs good players, leave it

pseudo pelican
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Bombing can be good but it's not really a counter or alternative to fast t2... Fast t2 will always be good, only alternative is some kind of all-in with mass t1 units / comwalk / comdrop.

But there's always nuance to exactly how fast you go t2, and what units you make once there. But trying to find some ONE CRAZY TRICK that would straight up counter it, is not a reliable alternative to it.

empty rain
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Pretend a meta exists with two rear air/support, sacrifice far sea and instead feed resources to geo. Near sea still holds. Rest frontline.

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The new meta all-ins on boosting and counter boosting. Backline only transitions to tech after the initial front has been established or the tech boat fails

pseudo pelican
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You can do bombing and fast t2 at the same time

empty rain
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Multiple air is designed to try to counter their T2 by sharing air factories and output

pseudo pelican
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Boosting is not an all in of any kind, it's the most stable play usually

empty rain
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And T2 boosting is done because it, obviously, makes sense

pseudo pelican
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If boosting for fast t2

empty rain
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And thus a new asymmetric meta forms

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2 rear air shared, 1 sea, 1 boosted T2 + boosted, rest all front

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A coordinated and aggressive team will overcome those teams trying to play the old static meta long before their tech or sea wins can come online

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And obviously it mirrors/enacts/counters the opposing team boost as well

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And then there will be a new late/transition as the two teams fall into a new equilibrium of late game

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And yes, probably anyone who sticks to the old style will probably lose

long ridge
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i've never seen you play straight

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considering that you seem to love theorycrafting it

empty rain
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Don't play as I play 😅

long ridge
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basically there are several themes
most communism happens sort of fast, with pure boosting happening very fast, harder to scout and react in time

long ridge
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it just makes the game unstable and if you are boosted you no longer are managing your economy, it's like riding a bronko horse, suddenly you get resources with no predictiability

empty rain
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And I'm case it wasn't obvious, I'm suggesting the counter also has to boost

long ridge
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yes, only way to play on even ground vs boost is counter boost, or just straight up play boosting strats

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very warping on non-coordinated/tourney play. team doesn't want to boost you and enemy team does? you die
reverse is true

manic pine
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As it should be imo

long ridge
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i like to play the rts bar, not boosting always right

empty rain
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Well, see here's the thing, some people say this boosting is boring...

manic pine
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It’s not an undefeatable strategy either

long ridge
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basically optimal play you should never make your own t3 units

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but when I boost someone else, i don't get to control those t3 units. I'm just a battery.
very fun gameplay

manic pine
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It can be a bit boring, that’s why it doesn’t happen every time ya

long ridge
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considering how many plp build their own t2 and t3 labs
i think it's fair to say most plp like to make and control their own units

empty rain
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If someone says they find it boring, I of course have to concede, each of us find what we find enjoyable, and believe it or not, I actually agree... Hence I almost always don't try to play optimally

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But in terms of some kind of universal boredom quality: I can't accept that. People love team games and specialised positions and half the population seems to love doing nothing for 30 mins in backline positions 🤷‍♂️

long ridge
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sure

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if boosting becomes fully engrained in the meta im just gonna quit. and play some game that actually encourages me to use my own moveset to its fullest
not change to a battery half the time

empty rain
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I don't get it, personally, but I accept it.

long ridge
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it's fun once in a while but not all the time

umbral jungle
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Is the battery role effectively the same as eco role but you give resources to someone else instead of yourself?

sand knoll
wraith lintel
manic pine
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Or just play other maps where boosting is more readily punished

umbral jungle
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It amazes me that we have so many cool maps but most of the player base just wants to play two of them.

wraith lintel
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That being said Glitters is trash tier

manic pine
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In the case of Supreme there’s a tight knit discord community of people who all hang out and know each other and are friends

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That just makes everything more fun and enjoyable, doesn’t matter what map it is

wicked sentinel
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they could be a tight knit community who plays more than one map

viscid panther
viscid panther
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Also, I think I've sinned by reviving this thread. We had a good 30 hours of no comments...fuck.

fierce bloom
alpine loom
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Coop is the most fun mechanic in game

long ridge
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Losing cause your team didn't send you 4 winds every single game is significantly less fun

timber mist
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if you don't have 1 or 2 low ts slaves boosting you everygames, you are doing it wrong

alpine loom
manic pine
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Co op is the shit

dusky steeple
arctic onyx
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It's only natural that the player base will evolve and develop better strategies and coordination over time, people will get used to it and it will stabilize games a bit and allow them to not be stomp-fests. Air player had to get used to giving out transports and such and now people will have to get used to giving winds to front. I think everyone still gets to play with optimal play, people just need to figure out how to not waste a teammate's micro by having them do too little and people can control how much they share to help keep agency in the game.

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And it's a team game, leaving people to fend for themselves was never the answer.

dusky steeple
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(An overexaggerated example, but I hope you got my point)

manic pine
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what's wrong with that? labsharing is op. obviously I'm taking the unexaggerated example of allies lab sharing for multiple labs

dusky steeple
dark reef
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bigger problem isn't communism as a mechanism, but that it sets up basically one true optimal path to a chance at winning (on certain maps)

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and anyone who isn't in the hardcore regular club who knows the whats and whens of that, loses for the team almost automatically

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fun is optimised out of the game, and a lobster lock-in has occured

arctic onyx
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well, for maps where it's specifically a problem, you can adjust the map to help reduce the issue potentially, like removing the rocks from the center of Isthmus would make the front boost less effective

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and you could also remove the geo from mid to slow down t2

long ridge
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the more symmetrical the lanes are the less incentive to boost a particular lane
that's also less variety tho

arctic onyx
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or reduce the wind for the whole map, for that matter

viscid panther
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Guys, I found the problem:

Supreme Isthmus v1.6.3 621 363 58.45%
All That Glitters v2.1 145 77 53.10%
Supreme Isthmus v1.6.2 121 70 57.85%
Supreme Isthmus v1.5 66 22 33.33%
Supreme Isthmus v1.6.1 47 22 46.81%
Supreme Strait v1.4 7 4 57.14%
Theta Crystals 1.0 6 3 50.00%

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Man why does discord formatting suck

long ridge
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Great argument 👏

fierce bloom
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i mean what’s even the point of posting it chrono understands communism is strong but argues it leads to less fun games how is straits relevant to that

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the same way slinging metal from sea to eco/geo is less fun for strait players will be the same as the guy who doesn’t get the lab in a lab share having less fun

long ridge
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Are you guys so daft as to not realize that every map with a more important lane is gonna turn into a boost fest on that lane with the other lanes stalling and cutting corners

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Straights have high reclaim on center but it's hardly the only map with important center reclaim

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Okay let's not have any navy or front back maps cause clearly lane maps are the only true layout

dusky steeple
fierce bloom
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Games played - wins

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then win %

long ridge
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Straights lobster lobby is prolly worse micro wise but you are playing plp who played the same map hundreds of times. If you can't study the strategy, learn strats and bo's you will die. or have no impact.

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resource sharing itself is not a bad mechanic, it's just overtuned

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firstly, by boosting more than your opponent you always have the element of surprise (the gotcha first engage) while completely countering aggression. This is more pronounced on sectors where scouting is harder, such as navy or air

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secondly, instead of using a variety of units to help your teammates, you'd often rather just feed them resources. if ships are the best unit for a situation, you will just feed your sea player to help them instead of having the choice: do I send amphibs or make shipyard, or just make/give destroyers from consul? If they are on t1 ships and you have a t3 lab they will just feed you to make t3 hovers. this leads to lower unit variety.
third, greatly speeds up tech progression because why ever spend resources on t1 besides med tanks and spam once someone unlocks t2 lab

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imagine someone saying EMP bots are OP and you go say "well you have emp bots too?" "emp bot are micro, are you saying remove micro?"
that's the level of arguments in this thread

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it's brainrot

dusky steeple
dusky steeple
fierce bloom
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I think he pulled up chronopolize’s stats

dusky steeple
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They don't really show anything far from standard deviation (except the 1.5 version of Istmus) anyway

wraith lintel
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If @viscid panther brings up the stats of a single player I think it's only fair to argue that supreme above and beyond is the single most played map in the first place 🤪 so it's for sure reasonable to draw conclusion from it.

eager oracle
# wraith lintel If <@352628866252275722> brings up the stats of a single player I think it's onl...

IIRC from the last data dump ATG was ahead of SS. Regardless, it's not great for the community to trash-talk people for playing the gamemode they enjoy. People enjoy Map Rotations, Strait, Raptors, Scavs, 1v1's, and 8v8's, differently. Consumers aren't wrong when it comes to preference, it's a game they want to enjoy. The complaint about sharing is more pronounced for Strait players because the issue is more pronounced on the map and the thousands of games they've played on it to drill build orders. Sharing is still an issue on other maps, like Mausers for DSDR south, or Rosetta's Raptorback issue. However, people are generally trying to find/play counters into it

ashen beacon
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not the raptorbacks
volshock is tx55 confirmed

viscid panther
long ridge
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and you? peepoclown

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dumb troll who doesn't know rts theory?

humble jasper
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Where is TX55?

viscid panther
long ridge
viscid panther
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I've been banned for it before, I'll probably be banned for it again.

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No in game keybinds customization, broken lobby system, questionable client, but at least we have fully geared moderation am I right?

timber mist
humble jasper
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I'm not capable of helping :- (

manic pine
pearl crater
long ridge
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yep pretty small game

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alot shallower playerbase but alas you gotta learn everything yourself

alpine loom
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A lot of bar people came from Ashes. Drivver, cj, lsr, resop and malady to name some

granite shuttle
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if communism is a problem lets implement capitalism into the game i propose a sell/pay/gift buttons so its easier to pay for and sell out units ||as well as a stock market system and auctions and uuh other stuff||(sorry for necro bumping)

dark reef
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already done

selling.png
alpine loom
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Pls kill thread

fair flame
# dark reef and anyone who isn't in the hardcore regular club who knows the whats and whens ...

and anyone who isn't in the hardcore regular club who knows the whats and whens of that, loses for the team almost automatically

i disagree on aspects of this. anyone can get the replays and watch the games.
they can then practice and learn to beat those strategies.

I believe the 2v2 tournament was in locked lobbies so the replays had to be released and uploaded. I'm sure if you were to look at the players you'd see their 2v2 practice games. so even then; the games are there to learn from and study.

the "get good" or "requires practice" or even "needs teammates" are the community building and skill part of the game.
the hardcore regular club; isn't barred to entry; you just have to play more.

either the game has strategies and counters and that leads to optimization; even if its as simple as lab sharing is OP. (for example a 2m 36s fatboy) or its slowed down and homogenized to 'good economy by 8mins start getting t2' because no sharing etc.

dark reef
long ridge
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communism/boosting has a number of obvious implications if you think about
every geo spot and amex should be built at highest priority

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i had a game vs kaiser where I killed the person off sea, and captured their island (I had 14-15 t1 mexes to their 4 land mexes), but they were able to brute force back onto the sea, cause kaiser built their t2 mexes early

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not only is it a boost, it's boosting the single fastest return investment (t2 mex) in the game

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when a t2 mex quadraples your income you can say it warps the game around t2 timing

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it is a form of coordination but I'm pretty indifferent to the pivotal impacting moment in the game being a "build everyone's t2 mexes" game

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when played using communism it is 100% wrong to build a fusion before the entire team's t2 mexes are completely upgraded

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t2 mexes return in ~90 seconds, fusion in 270

eager oracle
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Isn't that how you normally sling, though? Like on DSDR you can drop 2 T2 cons in Trans and fly around tapping everyone's mexes while you pump T2 front. 1100 Metal (550x2) vs 3850 (550x7) metal from your team to upgrade their mexes. which equates to ~12 stouts, enough to roll early game. It also lets you stagger the timing where your entire team has no army because they are dropping 1860 (620x3) each. Then you can use your own BP for T2 units and they can use their BP/Metal for the T2 mexes.

long ridge
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yeah i suppose so

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tapping their mex or building their mex

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for one you just share a common t2 con, for the other you pay the bp and metal cost

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but like optimally you should always start every team t2 mex before doing something like a fusion

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i mean every

eager oracle
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Really map specific to be honest

long ridge
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1 returns in 90 seconds another returns in 270
unless you don't trust your teammate to use the resouce

eager oracle
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Right, but the issue is that opposing T3 hits the field faster

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I used to give consuls + T2 to everyone, and it would routinely get rolled if the opposing tech knew it was coming

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Because they can just 2 Fusion shiva and all in

long ridge
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well the return speed on a fusion is slower than the initial t2 rush

eager oracle
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And your team won't be able to stop it unless they get lucky d guns

long ridge
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so you saying they can make 2 fusion (8k), gantry (9k), and make shivas that walk across before your t2 mexes pay off and you convert that into a response

eager oracle
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I'm not arguing that the team gets more metal when you up all mexes, I'm saying the opposing T3 hits because they can have counters in place

long ridge
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sure
that's more like team isn't building the mexes fast enough and then feeding the metal back into you to make like fusion starlights or w/e counter works

eager oracle
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Yeah, especially on 9 mex tech maps like Swirly/Koom/Rosetta

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Well Rosetta is more than that, but point stands

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Zow carries a stupid number of games with the Ageo -> Fusion -> Shiva/Grunt ~11 minutes

long ridge
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yeh
ageo t3 very strong

eager oracle
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The counters require so much E, and front won't have it generally. Snipers/Starlights/Spybots are all crazy E dependent

long ridge
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have to scout it and pool metal to build fusion and have someone bring the counter

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if you upgrade your t2 mex then spend it on generic t2 it will die

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the tech spot has 9 mexes?

eager oracle
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Yeah

long ridge
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lol yeah ig in those case you can be more e bound

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i mean units at the front can be more important than 90 second pay off time of a mexes soometimes
but not that often

eager oracle
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I mean, it isn't uncounterable, I've won tons of games against that same situation sharing everything

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But I'm just saying that it isn't perfect, the greedy T3 can break it with Mara/Shiva

lapis lava
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I think people should just make the fun units and play whatever they want to

viscid panther
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Thank god balance isn't a democracy. This thread gets scarier every time I read it.

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Let's fix the problem by just removing the ability for team mates to do anything outside their roles based on where they place their commander. That's what we all want, right guys?

manic pine
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no unit more fun than the Dargon :- )

fair flame
viscid panther
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Actually, let's just remove team mates entirely. Pesky human players doing stuff outside what we think they should be doing.

long ridge
viscid panther
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Was the sarcasm not obvious enough

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This whole thread is about forcing people to play in a certain way because you think that way is more fun. These community sentiments are why a majority of my friends abandoned the game for good, and it's kind of sad.

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You guys think you're on the side of the community, as if any of this discussion is beneficial. But really it's just further radicalizing the playerbase and causing behavioral issues game-wide.

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You know what I hate more than straights? Straights players. And that's a problem. I, and others, really shouldn't be having these sentiments at all. My temp ban was justified, but it wasn't unprovoked.

manic pine
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let's all just do what Zow says and make fun

pearl crater
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tbh this topic should've been closed a while ago eh

subtle tangle
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Are we okay with a role-oriented boost meta? Like, in 5 years a new player will be harassed by another new player for not watching videos about how to play he must be an idiot for not knowing the boosting meta

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Like, how long did it take League of Losers to go from Freeplay to role calling to role assignment?

viscid panther
subtle tangle
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Yep. They embraced the meta enforcement. Now if you go anyone but your assigned lane you'll be reported for griefing. :/

viscid panther
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You know what's ironic? It's the people complaing about communism in this thread that are most guilty of enforcing roles.

subtle tangle
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It could be fine. 8v8 would be considered a very different sport than 1v1. Kinda like football vs boxing.

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People expected to know and fulfill an assigned role.

viscid panther
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It's like how a liar assumes everyone else is a liar too.

pearl crater
viscid panther
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And he also thinks it will be role oriented, when it most certainly will not be.

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Games are a bit more dynamic than that, especially outside of 2 particular maps.

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I've never been berated for playing outside my "role" in rotation lobbies. But the moment a frontliner in straights makes ducks when he's about to get fucked by naval, that's the enemy there.

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Actual fucking psychopaths

subtle tangle
# pearl crater though how do you know the boost meta will prevail?

Because it's more efficiently, just simply is.

Exponential economic growth favors boosting.

The exponential competency and the high cost of entry of higher tier units also favors boosting.

While either of these factors remain and people can share without cost, then boosting will be dominate at the highest levels of play. As newbs learn from the experts, eventually it becomes common practice and meta.

viscid panther
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You're right in that boosting is probably optimal. You're dead wrong in thinking that means we'll have human batteries that don't even micro units. Apm is a resource, and if you think it's not, or not a valuable one, you are simply not very good.

pearl crater
viscid panther
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I've never lost a straights match where all 8 players rushed t1 vehicle. Ever.

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I did this cheese with a group for 10 or so games. 0 losses. Worked even when scouted.

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People have no idea whats good or not. But I do know teamwork is OP, and deserves to stay OP

dark reef
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the two aren't exclusive, eg it's not 'OP take lite' due to the player still being there

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I don't think it will go too far down the ladder though, because it's inherantly anti game/fun

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also teamwork gets worse the further down you go. but, I will probably be surprised by how much people like their fake internet points

pseudo pelican
grim compass
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the game is still too young? pepethink

pseudo pelican
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theres no magic trick you can punish a team for being efficient, without being efficient yourself

subtle tangle
viscid panther
pseudo pelican
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not sure what you're getting at, when i wasnt responding to you

viscid panther
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I brought up "human batteries," and we all started talking about inactive players. You were indirectly responding to what I said.

subtle tangle
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Don't get me wrong, I don't mind boosting being a legitimate strategy. I just don't want it to be the only legitimate strategy.

Yes, the meta is still pretty young. That's why I think it's a valid conversation to have sooner than later.

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We already kinda have role assignment common with air and techer. Like, one of my first experiences with this game was getting chewed out for taking the Glitters' air spot and not playing air.

pearl crater
pearl crater
alpine loom
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#1191802741350223945 message

alpine loom
long ridge
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yes when you do timing attacks you need E for certain units
i mean making a fusion for the purpose of converting to metal

long ridge
long ridge
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if human behaviour suggest time and time again, people want to build t1 t2 t3 lab and make units for themselves, despite being aware that it's unoptimal (why do you need two t2 labs??)

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in the macro sense they will be human batteries. if you are minmaxing then yes they will be given units to micro

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how much of the rts are they really playing?

viscid panther
long ridge
viscid panther
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They'd be engaging with more mechanics than most ever do in a single game

long ridge
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and that is? giving resources and microing

viscid panther
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no communism you're restricted to your own factories

long ridge
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not economy management, sim city, unit composition etc

viscid panther
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with communism, you got 200 units to play with

long ridge
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unit variety has nothing to do with communism
you are deluding yourself

viscid panther
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oh, it definitley does

long ridge
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with communism t2 phase comes at 5 minutes or earlier on some maps
guess most t1 can just fuck off

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on maps where mauser rush is the kill condition, guess the navy lanes are useless. oh wait that's straights

viscid panther
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Which T1 stops being used late game? Rocketbots and plasma bots maybe

long ridge
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and centurion, thug, whistler, janus. some plp like t1

pseudo pelican
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Everything but spam and aa bots gets out of use

long ridge
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aa bots are okay but not very dps effecient i think... even massed they are poor against t2
if they are what you have they will do

viscid panther
#

you act like entire map will be T2 because I single player got T2 at 3 minutes?

long ridge
#

any lane within influencing distance

viscid panther
#

You seriously can't think outside of the scope of the maps you play

long ridge
#

am i wrong?

viscid panther
#

yeah

long ridge
#

ok then address my argument lol
unless u want to get banned again

viscid panther
#

lol?

long ridge
#

why should you be in the community when you hate 40% of the playerbase 🤣
and can't stop insulting people

#

anyways, back to the argument

viscid panther
#

Man, just look at what you're typing. I know I've said some weird ass shit above but...eek.

long ridge
#

anything but discuss the topic

viscid panther
#

The implication here was that in most maps, a single player doesn't have influence over a majority of the map

#

People still need to play the game

long ridge
#

a central t2 lab can quickly affect 3-4 lanes no? as it should when played optimal

viscid panther
#

not enough to where everyone is going to immediately transition off T1

long ridge
#

ofc not.

#

but anywhere there are mausers t1s other than scout spam and med tanks becomes moderately irrelevant

viscid panther
#

This whole side spiel started because you said communism effectively gets rid of T1 5 minutes earlier

long ridge
#

the t1 phase

viscid panther
#

guess most t1 can just fuck off

Specifically sounds like you're talking about units here

long ridge
#

i said most t1 units
lets see arm lab

subtle tangle
long ridge
#

janus, whistler, shellshocker, blitz (mostly, since jag exist)
centurion, rocket bot
list of irrelevant units after t2

#

i'd say that fits the bill of most

viscid panther
#

Again, the whole map isn't going T2 because a single player got T2 5 minutes earlier

long ridge
#

half of the map, and expanding

viscid panther
#

Maybe if the map is a single choke

long ridge
#

pick your favourite rotation map

viscid panther
#

forge I suppose?

#

And that's a pretty chokepointy map

#

Forge, maybe DSDR

#

Don't tell me you're looking up what forge is lol

#

😂

long ridge
#

you can't even see shit when you paly that map

#

it's so dark

#

role meta is partially done from optimization. the eco spot is farthest away from bombing threats (even tho with utilizing of boost/assist, eco spot is a relic of the past)

#

bot start on long beach is terrible. generally someone has to contest geo sea be it pond or geo sea or the frontplayer will die if the sea player is competent at all

#

making ducks from front can be the right call esp to swing a close fight

#

but it can also be bad if the sea is under firm control, just feeding metal instead of going for a land win

#

players are bad they will bitch on you for anything. often they are wrong. if you want to defy the common meta then go win with it. or at least pull your weight

#

prove it. there's people who proved dragons rush was viable, that hover start on long beach was good. but the difference is they had the execution to make it not shit

viscid panther
hard pine
# viscid panther I did this cheese with a group for 10 or so games. 0 losses. Worked even when sc...

I've done this as well, way back when it was early season me and some friends would just get the team to all in tanks and we would also coordinate multiple com drops at the same time. One of my friends got 40 OS in 2 weeks without even knowing how to play the game, only com dropping every game. The only thing truly "OP" is Full Coordinated teamwork but its rare to get 8 players that actually have brains. Having the eco spot communism seems like a way better meta then having the eco player AFK afus into marauders every game. I vote communism stays.

long ridge
strong pulsar
#

Being able to cooperate makes the game fun. Finding new meats keeps the game alive. Otherwise it would just be only 1v1 or 2v1 situations.

#

All in all straits is just a terrible map: only one small chokepoint, heaps of reclaim m and e, favourable wind, acres of space for wind farms, fairly safe geos

timber dawn
eager oracle
#

I don't understand the argument between Snoop and Chrono

long ridge
#

i'm saying communism leads to compression of t1/t2 phase, he's taken the part that i'm saying t1 units are literally useless

eager oracle
#

Ah. I agree that pooling decreases the T1 phase, and that once T2 hits, T1 units have limited usability outside of scouts/AK-Peewee/Rezbots/ and AA bots

#

I don't understand why Forge is used as an example?

long ridge
#

cooperation is fine but boosting is quite an op mechanic. because of the lv of coordination and scouting required being reactionary is always a disadvantage. it's to the point where the main time you see success against boosting is with minute 0 counters, people recognize who will play which spot from meta knowledge and guess/scout the strat. OR the person boosting boosts a weaker player which is basically reverse OP take

#

plus you skip lab cost

eager oracle
#

I think you can't boost on the majority of maps without a lot of risk

long ridge
#

any map with a more backline

eager oracle
#

But will concede that super choke maps make that difficult

long ridge
#

is easily boostable. it's literally moving resources on the map and skipping lab cost

eager oracle
#

I mean, yeah? But that's also just standard on a ton of maps

#

Like NW backline geo often just boosts his frontliners AGeo, but it doesn't mean they win 100

long ridge
#

boosting? it's not standard, or navy lanes would be dead in like 3 minutes
ofc nothing is 100% win

#

cooping economy structures is a simple optimization

eager oracle
#

Yeah, but it isn't auto-win on the majority of maps, it's just an optimization

long ridge
#

the economy part is an optimization

eager oracle
#

I mean there are tons of games on something like NW/Tabula, where people try to go a 5v3 4 min T2 and just die to a 7v1 aggressive team

long ridge
#

t2 lab is not the only form of boosting

lapis lava
#

It’s still a big advantage compared to not doing it

long ridge
#

navy and air are more succeptable to boosting cause scouting is harder and first engage matters more

eager oracle
#

I'm not arguing it isn't a big advantage?

#

I feel like that's just part of the game and isn't as big of an issue on open maps

long ridge
#

not being auto-win doesn't mean it's not imba (for better or worse)

eager oracle
#

It's more specific to narrow choke maps

long ridge
#

let me pull a map

#

you only need 2 people to pull off a boost

#

that's any backline spot removes the "oh shit frontline will die instantly"
and you don't need a massive boost

#

depends on the strat

eager oracle
#

I mean, that happens on like every Lane map though. "Go T2 I'll feed you"

lapis lava
#

Can be most maps 8v8 is played on, if two people in a general area are the same lab type they could save on lab metal t1

long ridge
#

instead of a nuanced 1v1 opening on navy on straights (which is not a narrow choke if we are talking about the sea)
we're just taking turns murdering each other with who gets boosted (this is a 500-1k m boost, not a massive commitment)

eager oracle
#

I am not going to argue straits with you, because I don't play so I can't speak to it. I'll cede whatever points you want there. Hit me with another example.

#

For example FN has too many active lanes, you can't boost your navy because somewhere else dies

long ridge
#

it depends on how fast/valuable the navy lane is and how defendable

eager oracle
#

Although techer normally goes Navy after, and sometimes even T2 techs for them

#

I mean, basically every navy lane is the most valuable lane on every map I can think of?

long ridge
#

na ships are expensive man

eager oracle
#

I mean in the sense that whoever wins navy wins game

long ridge
#

only if they can shutdown other lanes or bases then they are op

#

yeah on bunch of maps can be true

#

to design a balanced land/navy map needs sense

eager oracle
#

That's the point: "it depends on how fast/valuable the navy lane" every map I can think of offhand with sea/ground interaction, Navy is the most critical position

#

Glacier Gap
Melting Glacier
Red River
Red River Estuary
Tempest
Tropical Assault
Failed Negotiations
Mariposa Island
Erebos Lakes
Seven Rivers
Eight Horses

long ridge
#

eight horses the most importantt is not hte naval channel but the central top mexes my guess is
navy is poor af on that map

eager oracle
long ridge
#

yes but winning the entire lane is slow and shouldn't be allowed to happen

#

you can go seaplane without even winnin the lane
just other 2 players should help and coop sea planes and tidals (aren't they op on that map?)

eager oracle
#

I disagree, you get pushed way too around

lapis lava
#

My experience is that the naval lane is always someone very experienced with sea against someone who hasn’t played it before or well, so the lane gets stomped in record time and seems important.

eager oracle
#

It's a narrow lane, you have to bring ships to front asap. Any decent opponent is going to know your metal situation and play around it

long ridge
#

yeah if you stomp the naval lane its gg in most cases. also true with air lane
you bomb their air player esp with t2 air game's wide open

eager oracle
#

Right, but we're talking about in the context of boosting

#

On a map like 8 horses, it's much harder to boost because you won't have resources in front of another player

long ridge
#

sure. you have to boost in smaller amounts

eager oracle
#

Right, and I don't have an issue with that?

#

I think that's part of what makes BAR fun, is that interaction

long ridge
#

thing is boost is relatively invisible and can be done at any time
it's a bitch to scout. just suddenly bam you dead

#

unless you have access to very good scouting tools

eager oracle
#

I think it's really apparent in lane though?

#

I have 10 stouts he has 6, he is spend his metal elsewhere

long ridge
#

by the time the 1-2 more ship showed up or sub showed up lane can be lost
like by the time one commander transports forward and secures shipyard and you didn't lane is lost

eager oracle
#

I feel like that's strait specific though?

lapis lava
#

Applies to every sea lane

long ridge
#

^

#

if ships die they leave reclaim, if it's a rush for central mexes then early engages decides all cause you are poor overall

eager oracle
#

So your argument is what exactly?

eager oracle
long ridge
#

why don't we play some sea maps
test it out

eager oracle
#

At work, LDM are going to organize a naval lobby sometime

lapis lava
#

Eight horses sea lane is easily won with a +400 metal gift

eager oracle
#

But I feel like boosting happens in every game, and I don't see it as so much of a problem on the majority of maps

long ridge
#

if you are facing a stronger enemy 400metal gift easily makes the lane safe for a average player against a stronger player. or the reverse, for a strong player to quickly kill an average player

lapis lava
#

People aren’t very good so it’s not a problem generally

eager oracle
#

I'm aware, I've boosted sea on Eight horses to win it

#

I've also had my lane get rolled because I did it

long ridge
#

how are you going to scout someone boosting 400metal without getting a full scout and knowing precisetimings

#

it's not easy to scout

eager oracle
#

I don't mean scout the player. I mean the lane in the opposing land lane will be able to win their lane. I cede that Navy can often be more important as a lane, but it doesn't mean it always wins.

#

I also feel like resource sharing is constantly done on all maps.

long ridge
#

you boost from the position that can afford to spare that much, once an advantage has been gained you can just send back the metal

eager oracle
#

It just makes sense to maximize resources to critical areas of the map.

long ridge
#

plus, the other side doesn't KNOW you are down 400metal on that part, you do. so unless you are against a strong player who will apply relentless pressure it's pretty feasible to hold

eager oracle
#

In terms of the context of boosting

long ridge
#

that boosting is a defendable strat and has a lot of impact while being hard to scout
that "your other lane will just die" is not neccesarily true

eager oracle
#

Sure, but you can also just counter boost?

long ridge
#

yep. now it's a blind game of how much did you boost and how strong is the piloting player
and if your team will wake up and capitalize instantly (hint they won't)

eager oracle
#

Naval win crushes the rest of the map later, Lane win crushes surrounding lanes sooner

long ridge
#

ofc, that is true

#

it is possible to overfocus on winning your naval lane and ass your transiiton and now team dead

eager oracle
#

I'm not arguing that boosting in good in this context, I'm just saying that I don't feel like I've seen crush enough games to be a problems on the maps I've played, that have decent design around destroyers

long ridge
#

all about effeciency and especially about getting that surprise first engage

#

you get a surprise engage that's worth +- 1000 metal
easy return on investment

#

cortex doesn't have cheap tools to defend boosted subs either
you have torp launcher literally everywhere or 970 metal destroyer, which is slower than eel

eager oracle
#

On Seven Rivers it's totally a problem because the water lane is abusrd and destroyers beat all T1 ground

lapis lava
#

I mean it’s basically how we took out indaclub chisato in the 2v2 tournament, I just sent my metal to nezah and we won the whole map, you can’t scout it

long ridge
#

what was the map?

eager oracle
#

Yeah, but Inda and Chisato are trash, amirite?

lapis lava
#

Fallendell

long ridge
#

was one part of the map more important or were you relying on surprise?
push one lane stall the other

eager oracle
#

I mean, I think it has a place, but I also don't think from the games I've played it's as prevelant or crushing as stated

lapis lava
#

Surprise, map is relatively balanced

eager oracle
#

When it wins, it looks great, but it doesn't always win.

long ridge
#

honestly the boosting being hidden is the most difficult part to deal with
your team knows exactly what lane is giving up resources and should bluff and stall

#

while as their team only starts to know when extra units start crashing in

eager oracle
#

I mean, yeah? But that's just standard play on the majority of maps

#

Like top Bismuth is literally stall into Mausers, Forge is Boost mid geo into Cerb

#

I understand it's strong, but I think it adds a greater level of strategic cooperation and depth

long ridge
#

yeah but how are you scouting that? you just assume that's what they are going for if you don't see 1000 tanks

#

mausers are no surprise cause it's become the default play on bunch of maps

eager oracle
#

You are doing the same thing, or doing something else?

#

I mean, you can wreck mausers with bulls on open maps if you charge at them. You can drop arbs to snipe the cerb before it finishes

long ridge
#

fair

eager oracle
#

But the "main" play is safer, generally

long ridge
#

i think we're talking about t1 boosted play rather than the common standard meta of t2 tech pooling

eager oracle
#

Get nanos, get transports, and move BP/metal where needed

#

Aside from naval lanes, I don't think anything I play normally has boosted T1, tbh

long ridge
#

air lanes. t1 boosted bombing run to bomb air player

#

anyways i think we've stated our points, nice to hear that you are playing a front boost / boosting out economy structures playstyle on that map

#

it's easy to see how that is effective

subtle tangle
#

I don't think the argument is to completely remove boosting--just to tone it down so it doesn't become ubiquitous.

long ridge
#

straight up t1 boost on lane map seems less reliable since it's harder to kill someone with a commander and single lane

#

the situation you want to avoid is when you boost and the lane stagnates without return

#

oh yeah tempest that was the map i was looking for. navy is close to "win the game" on that map. there are central mexes and you are poor. me and kcorp are like 3-0 on that map but we didn't use boosting. optimally it will be a navy boost fest because win first engage = mexes and reclaim. win sea = kill 2/3 of the map

eager oracle
#

Yeah, you generally give sea way more mexes on Tempest

#

It's common to give them all the HG front mexes on the cliffs behind them

manic pine
#

I think we're all in agreement that boosting can be an OP strategy (to different degress and not without risk albeit that risk is fairly mitigated on chokey maps), what I think the disagreement comes down to is whether that OP strategy is a good thing for the game or not

#

(i could be wrong, that's just my sense from reading the comments)

long ridge
#

yeah, we have to see meta develop more kinda

timber dawn
eager oracle
#

When you boost air, when does the bombing run hit?

long ridge
#

boosting doesn't affect casual games much cause non competitive lobbies rarely do it. So there is not a need to limit boosting in the base game. But for lobbies and posssibly in the future for tourneys if opinions shift on boosting for competitive play. Simply, let each player group play the way they want.

#

i d/k the exact timing. normally t1 bombing run is kinda weak because you rather be scaling. t1 bombers considered weak for their cost, each one has to kill like what 6 windmills

#

you can go with 3-6 bombers and enough fighters

eager oracle
#

Fair enough, I just feel like I never see it, was wondering why

manic pine
#

Wdym, you see boosting air in nearly every single game we play?

#

Those solar and windmills shared at the start of the game for transports are a form of boosting

long ridge
#

indeed. cause the air player has to pump out a lot of key units early and speeding up that is very good. namely the race for trans commander and fighter snipes

eager oracle
#

I don't see that as boosting, I mean I swap a ground con with transports. In the context of this conversation it would be the techer boosting for earlier bombers

long ridge
#

Well if you gives winds it speeds up the units

long ridge
manic pine
#

IMO air is usually e constrained not M and the techer can't rly give up E early to boost

eager oracle
long ridge
#

Boosted air or double air is a way to stifle a strong air player's impact

eager oracle
#

What maps do you think have strong/important air?

long ridge
#

larger maps. more areas to cover with aa / ground aa takes longer to move and have impact

#

naval maps, since shruiken / esp t2 atomic bomber and torp bomber. also air scouts are very good for navy

#

maps where transport is important

eager oracle
#

I feel like that's just all maps, lol

long ridge
#

not sure but dedicated air maps maybe?? t2 air lab is where air really gets game ending power
naa, if you had a peanut sized map air would be shit

eager oracle
#

Right, but there aren't any 8v8 maps like that

#

Aside from the horror that is hooked

long ridge
#

it's not just map size but how ineffecient the land routes are

#

anyways air is wierd cause at the same time the t2 fighter is insanely good at killing air

viscid panther
long ridge
#

i played it b4 lol

#

don't know why you care about my match history so much

viscid panther
#

You haven't unless you want to argue that your stats are wrong on both sites

long ridge
#

wow my biggest fan
i should call you simp

viscid panther
#

*mobile

wicked sentinel
#

This personal slapfight is not going to resolve anything

long ridge
#

really? not the dozens of arguments i made? grow up over your straits hate

viscid panther
#

Grow up? You told me I'd get banned for responding to you the wrong way 😂

#

Actual clownery 😂

long ridge
#

last time i checked hate speech (i quote "fucking pyschopaths") is bannable

viscid panther
#

Try it

long ridge
#

if you insist

eager oracle
#

How about we don't derail the thread.

viscid panther
#

And it's weird you're recontextualizing what you said

image0.jpg
quick spire
#

Communism is bad, Capitalism is good. That's why I always build storages to avoid sharing resources with my poor teammates

long ridge
subtle tangle
#

Ideally, for any given strategy, there is a way to scout it and make adjustments to counter it with a different strategy. Rock-Paper-Scissors instead of Rock-Paper-Shotgun.

#

Boosting is already shotgun status on some maps--and it ain't even been explored much.

#

It's possible to scout boosting. Look for gifted buildings or t2 timings.

Suppose you figure out by 2 minutes that they are boosting; how does your team adjust their strategy to counter it?

quick spire
#

You counter it by typing !resign in everyone chat. There is a reason sharing resources in AOE2 is taxed and has lategame upgrades to reduce that tax.

stable yoke
#

HEY were talking about communsim but chrono and snoop be sluging it out here like a boxing match lol

alpine loom
#

Chrono this literally is the same case on straits too, I choose to excert pressure on x territory and if ur eco boosts someone they are also choosing to excert pressure on that territory.

#

As a teammate apart of a team that is part of the collaborative nature of strategy

#

If I'm eco and my mirror sits back and ecos, well then they're taking the risk to not match their mirror and thats a price they will pay

#

When I am pure boosting someone early note my metal is about 12m for almost 10 minutes , so I have to very carefully choose where resources go

#

U should eco boost more before u treat it like it's just free os

#

Also #1191802741350223945 message

amber vale
#

OK GUYS, is THIS THREAD getting out of hand? Vote below

#

-remindme 60d close or not based on #1191802741350223945 message

daring harborBOT
#

Set a reminder in 8 weeks and 4 days from now (<t:1713331623:f>)
View reminders with the reminders command

alpine loom
#

8 weeks gg lmao

long ridge
# alpine loom This is the case for most maps, if u boost another lane u are sacrificing pressu...

there's several reason why it's not autowin. first of all you are 42 os, it takes a lot to carry a game at 42 os, and a strong player in the right lane isn't always there. at top OS you don't only have to win your lane, you have to save your team and convert to a win faster than your counter part can. You are gifting your resources down in OS and controlling few units, thefore it can be reverse OP take. This is a big factor, Since you are boosting every game often it's with people who don't know what to do with boosting.

When boosted person know what to do, or you boost a strong player in an important lane, it is OP. Strats like communism geo, or boosted strong naval player quick kill have a very high win%. Other team must boost or counter communism strat or disadvantaged.

secondly full boost style is not the only way to play. someone could just boost mid and navy for the start reclaim etc, and then go back to their normal gameplay, for less commitment.

manic pine
#

Sounds to me like you've come around to it being a good strategy after all

long ridge
#

since when did I say that it wasn't an optimal strat

#

everyone and their mom knows it's optimal

manic pine
#

good

pearl crater
thin merlin
#

I didn't think the communism strat was a big deal until Bulbasaur and Happiness did it against me in a game and completely kicked my fucking teeth in

dark reef
pearl crater
#

It'd be pretty cool if you could play it map-wide in the game

amber vale
#

Rhetoric: Funky-style. Very funky. So tell me. Do you have any questions before we fire up the Big Communism Builder, or do we get right down to it?
You: Wait, first — what's this communism even about?
Rhetoric: Failure. It's about failure.
You: Failure?
Rhetoric: Yes! Abject failure. Total, irreversible defeat on all fronts! Absolutely vanquished, beaten, curb-stomped and pissed on — until you came along! You will reverse the fortune of the workers of the world. You alone, against every living thing, against every human alive: eight hundred trillion reál in the hands of an impossibly well organized ruling class; towering city blocks of bank-men who have the ears of prime ministers; million-headed armies of nations and the love of your own mother! You — against the atom, the charm and the spin. Where the whole world failed — matter failed to bend to human will; human will failed to get out of bed and tie its laces — you alone, single-handedly, will rebuild the dreams of the working class. You are The Last Communist. Now get to work, comrade.
You: It's too tiring. I don't have it in me. I'm beat down and broken.
Rhetoric: Very well. I guess no one will build Communism then. Tell the working man it's over. Unless anyone has... objections?
Logic: No objections. It's mathematically impossible to achieve a classless society. Everyone knows this.
Savoir Faire: Let not failure ensnare you any further, beautiful pixie girl! Be an acrobat! A prancing faerie queen!
Electrochemistry: Did someone mention cocaine? Are we doing cocaine? No? I'm sure I heard someone say Cocainimism...
Rhetoric: Anyone? Anyone else? There's no one?
Volition: There's one.
You: What should I do?
Volition: You should build Communism — precisely because it's impossible.
You: (Roll up your sleeves and start building Communism.)