#Balance Candidates Pack

1 messages · Page 12 of 1

tardy hearth
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oh yeah, I came here to say that Welder lightning should be as strong and long range as jaguar lightning. i say that as a (Glorious) Cortex player having pity on (filthy) armada.

fierce lion
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As long as Cortex remains "tanky and with missiles/rockets", I will be happy. Those are my favorite flavors.

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"Untargetable" during the countdown was also something that came to mind, but that doesn't really change anything over being spotted by a counter-intrusion. Speaking of which, I wish those just acted like a wildly inaccurate radar contact so that your defenses could actually try to do something; having to wildly flick the screen around your entire allied field to find the big red waves every time you hear the notification so you can send units or manually target things isn't a fun time. Though I'm guessing forcing enemy APM focus is a fair aspect of the balance.

fierce lion
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I've been thinking about it, and I have a suggestion that may be reasonable, and while not solving this problem might at least help it.
The Banisher has two missile launchers, while only usually using one at a time. Would it be possible to give it two missiles, and not allow them to both target the same thing (at the same time)? Force split the DPS between targets over time a little, and it might help with this problem I think!

rare orbit
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already tried this before, while it works on some level, it makes banisher a little too generalist, and there's no 'punch it in the face' window

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it also has less use in some situations, eg vs fiend or sheldon balls

fierce lion
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Fair enough! Thanks for hearing it out, btw, I bet you get a lot of repeat suggestions...

rare orbit
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you have no idea :(

split storm
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Hey Hornet? Fix everything. Yesterday.

rare orbit
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it me

marble talon
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It’s nice t just have one person to blame

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Thanks hornet!

tired tinsel
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10% more dps tigers might be a little op

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against t1 and t2 at least

rare orbit
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it's a proxy change for better turret speed/acceleration

cold needle
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@raw roost

raw roost
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Thank you

wintry wasp
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hornet, does burnblow work properly with rocketbots projectiles?

rare orbit
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can't recall, it's fussy as hell

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iirc fuel timer does though

wintry wasp
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kk, will have a fiddle with that also then

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the dmg overshoot from rocketbots is nuts, im wondering how much impact that has on their power

rare orbit
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that was also a factor in arcfire btw, as it naturally eliminates the free bonus range

wintry wasp
tardy hearth
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make ticks 37 hp? ;3 ?

cold needle
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Make ticks 1 hp 🧠

fierce lion
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Make ticks -1 HP, nuclear detonation on death.
(jk, I don't even hate ticks that much maybe.)

dire cypress
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Yeah, missiles aren't really too much of a CORE thing in my mind.

Most unique self propelled ammunition of CORE are (barely guided) rockets.
ARM on the other hand has tracking missiles. They slap them on every raiding unit for AA.

Arm has tachyon beams... Basically a better laser and the magic Sharpshooter shot.

Core has more of the other colors regarding beams. Namely ultra short ranged green ones for slow units. And heat rays.

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What color should Deadeye's beam get?
I like red, somehow, but I don't know if it fits.

wintry wasp
dire cypress
wintry wasp
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Oh there's also the green lasers from armed mex & bulwark med laser

dire cypress
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Blue might be best, though.

Looking at ranges and damage.

For me red is weak and short ranged.
Green is high DPS, short till slightly above average range and medium rate of fire.

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But that's so ARM... Heat rays? I just dunno.

wintry wasp
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maybe over thinkig it, chuck heatray on and see how you feel 😄

eternal wraith
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Simply from aesthetic point of view, cataphract laser is beautiful and rare. Id vote for that

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Green mammoth laser (and armed mex as well) is long range and specific sound and i wouldnt want deadeye to be confused with those

dire cypress
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I am down hilling atm. No PC at hand 😆

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Lifts are boring btw.

eternal wraith
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Take care

dire cypress
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Thx.
Well I only fell once, and boke nothing (except my rear rim) so, I think I did take care.

hardy phoenix
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Now that the cataphract doesn't have its old laser anymore I'd vote to reuse it on deadeye. It was my favorite laser by far and I'm sad to see it gone for now.

rare orbit
hardy phoenix
# rare orbit siegebreaker has something very similar

I do like it on siegebreaker too but I don't often play games with it enabled. I look forward to it becoming a base game unit.

Good point though, idk if we would want the same looking laser on deadeye and siegebreaker since they function differently. They do sort of both fulfill the single target role though so it could make sense.

tired tinsel
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t2 trans micro on siegebreaker seems important for min maxing

rare orbit
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if you start a tankevac meta I will defenestrate you

tired tinsel
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maybe you use transport and sumo to drop it in position to surround enemy units
that way it gives sumo an "engage"

eternal wraith
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Siegebraker lazer too spread out for a sniperlike unit like deadeye

tired tinsel
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can jag's aa be removed or replaced with a light emp resist?

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a super fast capable anti-swarm unit doesn't need bonus aa (on a seperate weapon no less)

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plus the lab already has the best mobile in the game in shreders, as well as access to hover aa (platypus)

rare orbit
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I'll reevaluate after EMP rework change, as it'll depend on shuriken interactions, but I agree jags OP

tepid mortar
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So we are circling around right now. First sala op and jags weak, now jags op? I would not touch this unit.

tepid mortar
tired tinsel
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Plp say Sala is better mistakenly because it wins in a head on fight

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Jag has always been extremely good. One of the very few fast anti swarm (fiend technically can be anti swarm) and has the range to kite spam and welder/sumo somewhat

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It's power projection, raid response, etc.

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U make 12 jags for your starlight and suddenly you have a real amount of aa

lucid nymph
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I love the jageur

lucid nymph
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While it's very good, I feel like the problem is more core vic being slightly shite

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Jag would still be used plenty even without light AA, I will admit

tired tinsel
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Cor veh is okay except for banisher

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Needs a stealthy scout tool or something, and I guess salamander is a bit average for a t2 unit

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Expensive when made from a t2 lab

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Still it does beat welder for cost

cerulean skiff
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But I'm still hoping for a no weapon giga tank scouting unit

fierce lion
# tired tinsel Jag has always been extremely good. One of the very few fast anti swarm (fiend t...

I've always bemoaned that the Fiend feels barely too slow to reliably fill this role, although giving it more speed would make it possibly too potent in other applicable roles. I'd also argue that Cortex more often have to rely on slightly more light backline static defenses due to the subpar ground-to-ground interceptor options. I've actually had more luck using Salamanders in this role than I have with Fiends, but they both pale to the Jaguar... Which is possibly okay, it makes sense that Armada would be better at that. Still feels bad early-mid-game when a ball of Pawns/Blitz covered by a Smuggler/Umbra or Juno strike play Benny Hill around your base as your Fiends/Salamanders and leftover Grunts/Incisors trail behind them until the Pawns/Blitz are finished off by a couple leftover LLTs/Dragon's Maws. : p
For better or worse, I find more and more of my ingame decision-making against an Armada focuses very hard against preventing or recovering from just that. Could also just be my skill level and/or the players I tend to play with.

tired tinsel
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fiend is very good mobile raiding, and pretty good dodging vs t1 tank / kiting vs raw t1 spam

fierce lion
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This is true, it is a very good unit that I very much enjoy terrorizing and frustrating my friends with! It just also seems like it and Salamander are the best ground (and mainly T2) options Cortex has for chasing down fast raiders and it always feels like they come up just a liiittle too slow to be truly effective. But again, the answer seems to be higher reliance on backline static defense, which isn't the worst either.

fickle kayak
willow raven
eternal wraith
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Is Printer part of this pack or extra units pack? I found a bug about it

marble talon
eternal wraith
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It built extremely slowly and i checked the unit ingame and it had 1bp

wintry wasp
dire cypress
eternal wraith
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Dunno

patent rune
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Playing skirmish mode? U can lack resources even if nocost enabled

wintry wasp
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yeah, nocost is just all values replaced with 1/1/10 rather than free

eternal wraith
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So it probably should build at full power anyway.

cerulean skiff
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Just wait until you see someone break out the flying printer highway to make amphibious lava landings. That's peak printer bugginess

willow raven
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I think I have seen that before with printer. One turret will be doing the assigned task and the other is finding something random to do. E.g. It's guarding an advanced constructor, the 1bp turret is helping build but the 199bp turret decides to heal a nearby unit, or reclaim something out of range.

lucid nymph
# tired tinsel Cor veh is okay except for banisher

Imo the issue is more that the t2 core vics are generally unexceptional. You got the tzar which provides a lot of early game pressure, and then everything else is serviceable but nothing to write home about.

Armavic has starlight/jag as standouts, armabot has sharpshooters and spybot, core has fiends and Sheldons and spybots

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What does corevic have that has tons of utility or applies long range pressure? Banisher doesn't do enough DPS per metal to be nearly as scary as starlight.

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I would absolutely agree that they're okay, but okay isn't good enough to match the exceptional options you get from other labs

tired tinsel
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armbot has weakness of being very immobile. tigers + repair is pretty decent

cerulean skiff
tired tinsel
cerulean skiff
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Tremors as well

fierce lion
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I personally saw Tremor as the Cortex equivalent to Starlight, it just has different strengths and weaknesses... as it should. When I see blue lazers, I think (roughly) "oh no, I gotta either close the distance or get out of sight!"; when I see plasma rain, I think (roughly) "oh no, I gotta either close the distance or build a shield!". In my eyes they hold a similar role of forcing your opponent's hand, one is just better at focused damage and the other at laying siege. It would be nice to have a long-range hitscan heavy-thing-killer like the Starlight as Cortex... But I also still personally maintain that we do not need our own starlight copycat. Of course it is very hard to think of a real answer that doesn't feel like something that already exists.
A problem though: if lasers are an Armada thing, and railguns are Legion, and heat beams (which are not lasers?) are also now Legion... You've basically run out of "hitscan" options. There will have to be overlap; and there already is overlap in the game, and that doesn't feel unnatural. So I'm not convinced that "X-weapon is a Y-faction thing" is a solid answer for not exploring that option.
If I magically had my way, and could magically "just make it work", I'd wish there were some way to prevent homing missile overkill, that'd be wicked sweet. Whether it is near-guaranteed re-targeting or just preventing them from all firing at one target/at once. But as I understand it that is not realistically doable? So it's not really an answer to the problem, just a wish... But if it could be done, that'd also be an amazing upgrade to long-range anti-air missiles.
Very unfocused rant right here, sorry for that.

fierce lion
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...And as the classic example of issues regarding tracking missile weapons, my mind goes back to the Banisher. Maybe it wouldn't solve all the problems, but I would adore to see two changes which could vastly improve it.
-Some way to prevent more than one missile-ready Banisher or in-flight Banisher missile, from targeting the same unit at the same time. If: another Banisher is firing at this unit, or a Banisher missile has this unit marked (or something), or a Banisher has fired at this unit in the last X milliseconds; Then: Look for an unmarked target. Even if it means that a heavy target would only get targeted by one missile at a time, I still feel confident overall it would be worth it. If something scary enough shows up that you want to unload all missiles into it, you can always manually fire, even if that isn't a perfect solution.
-A toggle-control-like function that prevents the Banisher from firing at something that the Missile would overkill by a percent, or even at all. So it just straight up won't fire at units that are not worth the damage of the missile. (On by default, please!) That way if the enemy wants to send a rolling mountain of ticks at my front to screen/bait/distract, it is up to me to have decided whether that's worth the missiles or not. Or even just worth Ctrl+Q of the missiles!

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For that matter, bonus points if the first solution is a toggle-control as well, for similar reasons.

tacit igloo
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Hornet can we make your balance pack an experimental checkbox in the lobby instead of a tweak at this point?

lapis radish
chilly siren
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and other t2 units can trade so well even if they do take damage that there isnt really much of a point to engage with the skirmishing gameplay of the banisher
it would defiently help if they could at least be more reliable anti air against things like atomic bombers for exmple because right now they suck against everything else other then transports and gunships.

fierce lion
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A massive and probably un-justifiable overhaul involving some kind of overkill prediction and prevention mechanic would solve a lot of little problems and some of these larger ones. I would never get my hopes up for such a thing, but I have seen such systems in other similar games so the possibility of it is tantalizing...
I think currently the threat of Banishers in early t2 is still significant at least psychologically; the sounds of a Banisher going off for the first time in a game is enough to make many players panic and check that some significant investment or group of units has not just been... Banished.

rare orbit
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I'm painfully aware of that, yes. it's the reason hitscan is such a powerful mechanic, outside of its actual statistics

dire cypress
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Perhaps a humongous HITSCAN !!!111!!!1!!
In the unit description box could help😁

Regarding hit scan... Have you had a chance to look at the current state of Deadeye?

chilly siren
fickle kayak
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@rare orbit Siegebreaker has lost it's beam visuals. Now invisible 😦

rare orbit
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._.

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when did that happen?

fickle kayak
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no idea. Just played a extra units game and noticed

rare orbit
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I'll look into it in a bit, wasn't anything to do with me though

fickle kayak
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you da best

chilly siren
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Give it juggernaut heatray visuals 🙂

clever lava
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Shame. The eternal question that probably keeps hornet up night 😂

thorny leaf
clever lava
chilly siren
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yeah and add a sound cue where it screams: "Its Jugging Time!" while it does the jugger stomp

clever lava
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And give the juggernaut massive juggs at the same time 😂🤣

thick inlet
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Hi Guys, what is going in with the Balance Candidates Pack? Where is the latest version of the Balance lua?

patent rune
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I dunno I hope Hornet is doing ok

thick inlet
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@rare orbit are you doing OK?

old ivy
rare orbit
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rumours of my death are greatly exaggerated

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finger is nearly healed now

cerulean skiff
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Hornet has gone the way of Barry, it's very sad.

torpid jackal
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Good to see you around 🙂

eternal wraith
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Holy shit hornet, gg, wb

ionic sonnet
cerulean skiff
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Barry and Hornet returning on the same day, wtf is happening

visual pecan
clever lava
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Mouse bite @rare orbit finger or what? ( happy new years etc brother. Hope ur good anyway and no permanent damage or whatever happened) 😂

rare orbit
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saw accident, broke a rib then lost a good gouge of the finger and half of the nail

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and if you've never tried to use a finger without a fingernail, it's weirdly crippling