#Balance Candidates Pack

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tired tinsel
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Build too fast arm too fast

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Ironically mines are the best anti uw weapon and anti surface weapon

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the one downside of them is that they are sealocked bp, so you cannot really build afus with them unless you build right at the shore

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and they take a bit to walk off the t2 shipyard = your bp is idling

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sea nanos transportable when

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
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it's fairly risky, since mobile aa cannot cross between water and land

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you are omega vunerable to bombing. and because anti-underwater sucks it is pretty vunerable to marauder

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not like a cushy backline afus position

tacit igloo
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What is the plan for actually getting some of these changes into the game? A big bang patch that promotes this entire pack probably isn’t the best

eternal wraith
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Actually telling players about changes should be the start

patent rune
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You could try to explain but it would still take time for ppl to check the stuff- tho having a name description for each unit should help

tacit igloo
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Or just like tweak one unit at a time

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Maybe starting with rocket bots because that one seems less contentious

rare orbit
rare orbit
tacit igloo
rare orbit
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that's what defines seasons so far, yes

eternal wraith
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News window ingame seems like a good place for balance changes that go live

tired tinsel
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there is one for live changes, this is a testing pack

tired tinsel
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banisher, buff the alpha damage to 1200, improve the missile homing, reduce cost from 1000/23000 to 950/21000

rare orbit
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damage not the issue, the mechanics are

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reload too high, and overkill negates the dps unless nannied

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already fixed in balance pack. it benefits from manual firing, sure, but doesn't obligate it for basic competency any more

junior lodge
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another idea: give riot tanks and janus 300% bonus vs sea shit

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there is currently totally zero counterplay possible as land vs sea early on, you need t2

tired tinsel
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just nerf frigate, destroyer and sub ig

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buff t2 navy / reduce cost

rare orbit
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naval rebalance a different beast tbh, but I will one day

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sorting the sea econ stuff soon hopefully

tired tinsel
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probably can reduce the drone ship drone hp. it has like 400 hp atm

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it's unanimous that the current HP is OP

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could try between 180-240 maybe

junior lodge
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at least give bonus to some t1 units vs sea at all, so there is ANY sort of counter, even if it requires catching sea off guard

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like currently, frig arrives, it costs like 400? metal, i hit it with 400 metal tank and it does like 5% damage, while it fires back and kills the tank in one shoot

rare orbit
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they are wierdly tanky

torpid jackal
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It's realistic that ships are very tough and efficient - it's not so realistic that there are no land based weapons that absolutely mess ships up. Static artillery is kind of underpowered in every regard, but especially against ships, but that is probably intentional to keep them from being too hard to assault. Instead, anti-ship missiles might make sense - like the coastal torpedo launcher, but in not shit

rare orbit
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there are, but not T1. the other thing is navy is a restricted lane, it has hard limits on where units within it can go, and past a point if land has too much it can do against that, water becomes ignorable and it's better to just go T2 land then walk into the water & they can't stop you

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and 1v1 balance, T2 sea is even rarer, so a destroyer off the coast should absolutely be able to bother you unless you contested sea

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a lot of this also boils down to map design problems, there are basically no good sea maps in BAR

split storm
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How could there be? Sea vs sea is badly designed, land vs sea is badly designed, and air vs sea is badly designed.

rare orbit
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well, I'm working on that part

split storm
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Yeah, but until the lab design is decent, making a good sea map is impossible.

tired tinsel
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sea vs sea is fine, boosting just makes it dumb

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holding sea gives you a bombing lane, air can cover amphibs

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air and navy and are just super suspectible to boosting strats

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except air doesn't leave reclaim and very few people know how to use air well (good build, and use scout with bomber and don't suicide into singular aa)

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t1 ships are too strong and effecient now... I mean it works out on certain maps, but it makes water crossings not very usable without sea control

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People who don't play navy don't realize how much of a disadvantage it is that the unit cannot walk most of the map

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there are cases where people try to retake my sea later on and I just let them while I front push with 5 thors and end the game

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1 jammer + dgun is devastating

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the reason why you find ships at your doorstep at 7 minutes is because there is a lane mismatch

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that happens because of boosting or big skill diff. Well if that was a land lane you'd have those units directly running into your flank. with sea they are merely seiging your coast

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the problem with certain maps is that water has too much access, even if t1 navy were to be nerfed

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tempest, rock jungle, tropical assault, red river esturary

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t1 ships are too strong relative to land, they should be strong but not this strong, but boosting is a big culprit. Rotatos complain "sea lane is all about feeding the lane", well cause untaxed communism is a great mechanic, isn't it.

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And maps are made for aesthetic, more often then balance, cause there are few mappers and navy balance is not a widely understood topic

rare orbit
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this is a greater issue than realised tbh, especially with things like 'what if anything can climb this slope'
far too much focus on prettiness rather than good gameplay

arctic finch
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well ship costs could be brought closer to land units and that way stats could also be closer making sea vs land more balanced for land units so only ship advantage in t1 phase vs t1 land would be range

autumn marsh
torpid jackal
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It is realistic that ships are far stronger than land units. When you don't have to put your weight on wheels or tracks, and don't have to travel over bridges or by rail, you can afford a lot more weight. Really, ships can measure up to coastal batteries in firepower. Making them swimming fortresses is only reasonable, especially battleships and flagships. Buuut ships are uniquely vulnerable to specific anti-ship weapons like torpedoes, and I feel like a land player that is really getting annoyed with ships should have an expensive, but credible counter against them

tired tinsel
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they probably need like -10 speed and closer to 380-400 range instead of 480

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as well as a bp increase cost

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with that balance we can have shallow water crossings and more water areas without having to super limit ship travel area

arctic finch
tired tinsel
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yep

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not sure what the best nerf to destroyer is... i mean sea has some downsides. could you make it a bit cheaper and weaker?
1 sneaky pete dgun and you are in the trash

cerulean skiff
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I liked the idea of the weapons having "recoil" that kills its acceleration, making it easier to hit and more of a long range siege ship

torpid jackal
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Maybe destroyers should move more into an anti submarine role, or do that and also get an anti-swarm weapon - after all, the role of a destroyer was traditionally to destroy boats

BAR has no armour system, right?

dire cypress
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I am confused...

The balance pack raises the e cost for each shot of a Tick to 5 but it was set to 0 in the base game.

1000013829.jpg
eternal wraith
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Tick spam does need a slight nerf imo, energy cost is great if thats true. Tick itself is cool but spam also makes arma very favorable

rare orbit
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it was shooting for 2e, while other scouts shot for 5 or free

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0e for anything south of LLT seems optimal

dire cypress
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I can't see the reduction of e cost for the other scouts. For me the website shows
Arm scouts still cost 2 E to shoot and (surprise) Core ones cost 5 E to shoot.

Anyways:
What is the suggestion for the Tick in the balance pack? Because 5 E per will not be included into the base game as it seems right now.

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But I want to thank you a lot for these two:

Screenshot_2024-07-19-22-53-43-02_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg
tired tinsel
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-30% dmg per shot, +1metal cost xD

dire cypress
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The BurstControl is great and the Energy per shot got a way better.
100E for a Titan to shoot it's main weapon and 75 of a Sumo in comparison was totally insane. Now it makes much more sense. 45 for a sumo and 1000+ for a Titan.

I haven't found Snipers, yet. But I have seen that the change log says that all scouts should shoot for free now.

rare orbit
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tick unclear, IMO less dps at the minimum, maybe less accel too, but I need to test both of them

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a touch more costly is probably justified also

dire cypress
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I meant gut hub. I don't look at the BAR website.

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Arghhhh....

I looked at my own branch!

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SORRY

rare orbit
dire cypress
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Snipers seem more in line with the general e cost per damage now. But it still feels a bit too low.
E.g. Titan 1300E for 6000 damage and 800 range.
Sniper 500 E for 2500 damage and 950 range. That alone would be ok but no damage reduction like any other weapon with such a high projectile speed seem like too much value per E.

rare orbit
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snipers are a unique case, not a laser

dire cypress
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I know

rare orbit
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snipers OP, news at 10

dire cypress
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But perhaps it could be some (very small) adjustment to make them a bit less OP in the early stages of T2.

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Just raise the e per shot by maybe 50-100%>
That would be in line with other "beam" weapons and their cost per damage and range

wicked sky
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When u make changes, take note that a unit has great value NOT being reliant on energy to shoot. Imagine a real situation where your economy get bombed/killed and you lose almost all your energy production; but you have units on field that can turn the game. I have no issue for sniper and starlight taking energy to fire (due to its damage and design) , but for the smallest unit aka scouts/ticks being under the category of being energy independent deserves another re-think if you want to change this core parameter. Take it as you will.

rare orbit
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half the core roster is crippled in a base trade situation

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the energy independence is primarily for the opposite problem, eg start of game when there's no infrastructure

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you can't have grunts and incisors suddenly going for a tea break when the wind drops

tardy hearth
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Now that salas are getting nerfed, can tigers get a qol buff? Faster turret speed and better aim? Like, the poor thing struggles to track even a stationary target while turning.

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A bull has faster acceleration, turn speed, and turret speed than a Tiger, lel. Dx

rare orbit
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I can't change turret, but possibly

junior lodge
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one more idea for sea bullshit: change land torp launcher turret to long range depth charge projector

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maybe it would suffer less from hitting ground

rare orbit
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I've already done that

autumn marsh
junior lodge
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doesnt it crash into the cove islands?

autumn marsh
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well afaik it works fine if u build it far from the shore to just reach ships parked by the beach so only destoryers could hit back and even that not very effectively, so it works there fine, maybe theres some problems of it hitting islands after it hits water first

rare orbit
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it used to be very fussy about ground, and would bounce close, once, then give up

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I made it much more throw-y to account for it essentially trying to target through ground

eternal wraith
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It could do more damage though, since ships are so opressive vs ground early on

autumn marsh
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it already does a lot, keep in mind its 240 metal only and can be repaired with nanos

tired tinsel
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it's reasonable atm
somewhat tanky but high bp cost

tardy hearth
rare orbit
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rotation speed

tardy hearth
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So alternative Tiger buffs? Or try to make it happen anyway? ;D ?

tardy hearth
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okay testing, bull and tiger seem to have about the same acceleration. bull definitely has faster turnspeed and turret speed, though. sometime try setting target on the ground with a tiger and drive in circles. its kinda sad. there's a solid 2 seconds it won't shoot, when turning away from target. Dx

rare orbit
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#coreturretlife

dire cypress
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I don't see why this is necessary.
What do the other devs say about this?

There are tanks where it is okish, like the Tzar. But on raiding units this is just bullshit.

patent rune
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Alternative buffs better. Considering salamanders taken raiding role can nerf Tiger speed but make able to trade with Bulls

dire cypress
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Salas are just a necessity because Jags exist.

thick inlet
thick inlet
autumn marsh
patent rune
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Mostly just a problem because its a t2 unit in a t.1.5 lab

tardy hearth
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Excluding amphibs, Tiger is more of a counterpart to Jaguar than it is to Bull, i.e., cheapest t2 land tank.

thick inlet
tardy hearth
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Don't forget, before Sala was Aligator, which can't really be compared well to Jaguar. And again, excluding amphibs, which pay the amphib tax. Sala was an attempt to fill the anti-spam hole in cor t2 veh, but as we see trying to make it competent in that roll makes it op from amphib lab, so 🤷

patent rune
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Alligator is like a big brute, bad against spam as opposed to salamanders that have perfect aim. Sala should be removed from amphib lab and replaced back with Alligator. Sala is a decent unit ontop of being amphib

rare orbit
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that makes more problems elsewhere, which I am not rehashing again

tired tinsel
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wow the new t2 hover when it kills arm t2 mexes it doesn't leave a wreck
otherwise it seems like a better banisher, skirmisher

vestal thistle
rare orbit
vestal thistle
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Pure vanilla

rare orbit
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well, I can't say I'm surprised

rare orbit
# vestal thistle Pure vanilla

LS0tHornetRocketbotArcfire10Ci0tSG9ybmV0IFJvY2tldGJvdCBBcmNmaXJlIDEuMAp7CmFybXJvY2sgPSB7Cgl3ZWFwb25kZWZzID0gewoJCWFybV9ib3Rfcm9ja2V0ID0gewoJCQl0cmFqZWN0b3J5SGVpZ2h0ID0gMSwKCQkJd2VhcG9udmVsb2NpdHkgPSAxODAsCgkJCXdlYXBvbmFjY2VsZXJhdGlvbiA9IDEwLCAKCQkJc3RhcnR2ZWxvY2l0eSA9IDEyMCwKCQkJZmxpZ2h0VGltZSA9IDEyLAoJCX0sCgl9LAp9LApjb3JzdG9ybSA9IHsKCXdlYXBvbmRlZnMgPSB7CgkJY29yX2JvdF9yb2NrZXQgPSB7CgkJCXRyYWplY3RvcnlIZWlnaHQgPSAxLAoJCQl3ZWFwb252ZWxvY2l0eSA9IDE4MCwKCQkJd2VhcG9uYWNjZWxlcmF0aW9uID0gMTAsIAoJCQlzdGFydHZlbG9jaXR5ID0gMTIwLAoJCQlmbGlnaHRUaW1lID0gMTIsCgkJfSwKCX0sCn0sCmxlZ2JhbCA9IHsKCXdlYXBvbmRlZnMgPSB7CgkJY29yX2JvdF9yb2NrZXQgPSB7CgkJCXRyYWplY3RvcnlIZWlnaHQgPSAxLAoJCQl3ZWFwb252ZWxvY2l0eSA9IDE4MCwKCQkJd2VhcG9uYWNjZWxlcmF0aW9uID0gMTAsIAoJCQlzdGFydHZlbG9jaXR5ID0gMTIwLAoJCQlmbGlnaHRUaW1lID0gMTIsCgkJfSwKCX0sCn0sCi0tLQp9
might I recommend you get this running in such lobbies as rocket bot conga lines are commonplace

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brace yourself for people with rigid habits complaining rocket bots can now be punched in the face

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but once people are used to the change, and use an actual composition again, it -really- improves fronts

tired tinsel
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i think rocko's op but like there's some op players who say rocket bot meta is most healthy out of all the imba metas and that when you get enough med tanks they can outscale the rockos

tacit igloo
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Hey, can we look into the coastal torpedo defenses having the small, if not slightly larger, range to the T1 destroyers?

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It would make re-entering sea, or land-based positions have a chance to protect against ships. Currently, destroyers can park right on the edge and endlessly poke.

tired tinsel
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maybe the destroyer will one day get nerfed to 600 range then the overwatch and coastal can hit it I guess.

vestal thistle
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It was also trash_panda having very good micro with them. I don't like the arc change to rocketbots it seems like u lose all tempo with it.

tired tinsel
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Looking forward prolly rez bot needs nerf to 150 bp and rocket bot numeric nerf perhaps. To stop bot lab from dominating the other labs. They absolutely obliterate static whereas a few vehicle arty can get out repaired

vestal thistle
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P sure they just need to revert the buffs and it will be mostly fine

dire cypress
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well then janus get a dirct boost

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and you will see janus whistlers again.

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and nervin t1 again and again will make hounds stronger, too

tired tinsel
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Whistler doesn't home anymore

dire cypress
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true... and hounds are fast

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and guess what, core has t2 units that barly outrange t1 and can kite for ever. and they have no janus. so what does core get? fiends to self d.

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and janus still have homing

tired tinsel
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fiends are sick units tho. for leak cleanup and blitz attacks

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when the lanes are stable they are not so good tho

eternal wraith
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I always use fiends, ye they die but so does your enemy

dire cypress
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yap
Fiends die
Hounds don't die.

This gets worse when T1 gets worse. Becausse then more T1 porc will be on the field and Hounds don't care too much about T1 porc.

The thing is:
Core has no "outranges all fighting T1 units and is faster then they are" like a hound. They got Salas now, which is great, but it just got nerved because T1.5. And sheldons really need at least 2k metal + a rocket bot to do any significant amount of damage. Termites in this patch do the job. But in the base game... nothing to be seen in this regard.

torpid jackal
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Sheldons are a fine comp. Hate facing them more than facing Hounds

junior lodge
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hounds are sheldon equivalent, not fiend equivalent, fiend equivalent is sprinter which is so jackshit you probably forgot it exists

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also to be honest, arm t2 robots are janky in general, either they are extremely role specific (like sniper) or just bad compared to their core counterparts

ducks are massively more useful than plaps, raider unit with pathetic dps
invisible bomb > normal bomb
cans > lightning bots
fiend massively better than raider
sheldon ball actually op, hounds are mostly meme in comparison
no missile bot equivalent at all
large laser bot (sumo?), massively more useful than pepega tzar wannabe that doesnt move properly

snipers are good tho

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aa bots are completely worthless for both sides, i guess thats balanced

patent rune
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Ducks are worse than platys, hounds are good early t2, sheldon is arty unit

cerulean skiff
# dire cypress yap Fiends die Hounds don't die. This gets worse when T1 gets worse. Becausse t...

Fiends are raiding units while hounds are skirmishing units - Fiend aren't hounds, and that's good asymmetry, imo. Shelly/Arb is a siege combination that is effective much later into the game than hounds are. Not to mention the E cost of Sheldons is so low that they are amazing on high metal lower energy maps, or when you are just transitioning into T2. 10 Sheldons + 2-3 Arbs routinely break open lanes and can kite other T2, whereas a single Tzar can shut down a hound push in lane.

cerulean skiff
junior lodge
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yeah, the renames are confusing to me sometimes, still remember the OTA/BA names

autumn marsh
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this is not about an equivalent units, factions are asymetrical, they offer different units for different purposes, there are no hard counters in this game just different units doing different things that work well in combination. Both ducks and platys have different roles and hence are not comparable just because they are both amphibious.

tired tinsel
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duck good on defense and being annoying but platy more impactful

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duck not bad against spam tho if you are making them anyways. like a budget welder

rare orbit
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@white orchid

torpid jackal
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Changed torpedo bomber feels really awful

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Like sliding around on ice

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Hilariously, you can still micro them by flying past things and turning while flying past, dropping torps, and changing direction again, but it feels like garbage and is a lot weaker

rare orbit
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the handling isn't final, it's the firing mechanics that's the important part

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they shouldn't be as slidey as they are, it's unintended but not rooted out yet

rare orbit
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@median timber

junior lodge
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Hornet - how about giving naval mines to commando?

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seem weird they cant make them

junior lodge
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wrong chat lol

violet geyser
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@rare orbit is the thread to talk about the new units also (depth charge carrier, the new subs etc) ?

rare orbit
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it might as well be

elfin frigate
junior lodge
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Yes, but is that a problem?

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You hardly ever see commando used

tired tinsel
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naval mines are incredibly op
want that shit nerfed

violet geyser
# rare orbit it might as well be

So i played a match of Lobsterworld with the new subs, some food for thought:

Is there any real use-case for the Nuke Sub ? Considering Nuk Silo and Sub have unlimited range and anti nukes cover a circle instead of say a fixed angle/vector, i dont see why i would want a submerged, slowly moving nuke silo. Its obviously giga cool as fuck to launch Nukes from a sub but in terms of gameplay im not seeing ANY point in why the unit should exist.
On a sidenote...how about turning the nuke sub into a tac nuke sub. That would actually have a use case since the limited range then makes a point for a having a unit that can actually move. On the down side there would need to be a distinct use case for tac nuke sub vs missile cruiser.

On the coastal assault sub, i have to say this is for sure the most hilarious unit outside of the pawncannon. The fact that this submarine is extending a dick-cannon out of the water to tachyon a beach or coastal emplacement is just so funny to me. That said im not quite sure that there is really a slot for the unit, same like with the nuke sub. This coastal sub is essentially a way to attack land from the sea which cannot be defended against using shields. So it clearly overlaps with missile cruisers the difference being its underwater and cant be targeted that way, while the missile cruiser attacks at long range but cant be targeted for the most part.
So really my question is, when would you use the coastal attack sub over the missile cruiser, Its very hard to make up a case. I had some fun putting one of these into the cove and attacking from there, but i dont really why i would build this over a missile cruiser considering the latter has like 5 times the range.

Lastly im pretty sure you are aware but (the old) Drones carriers are in URGENT need of a nerf. Drones are as tanky as 3-4 tier2 figs and each carrier brings 12 of them. Its completely unreasonable how tanky the drones are. Please fix this, a lot of ppl are of the same opinion here.

rare orbit
# violet geyser So i played a match of Lobsterworld with the new subs, some food for thought: I...

yes. sea is second class warfare and misses a lot of stuff that land takes for granted, nukes included. There are also entirely water maps, and nukes can't exist there without submarines. There's strategic depth to having unscoutable and movable nuke silos as well.

The coastals, mostly exist to help chase snipers and misc stuff that can one-shot boats from the coast edge, letting your actual dps ships move in without being instantly turned to dust. This is partly a balance issue with snipers tbh, but the proper fix for that is conditional damage, which isn't something BAR likes. Yes, missile ships can outrange coast units, not usually relevant as they can move faster than the missiles can land, so you're stuck blanket bombing an area 'just in case' of instant death. plus, again, fun to use.

a tacnuke sub however overlaps too much with missile ship, and would have no counterplay at all. the coastals are effectively budget tacnukes, but short ranged, allowing land to do things about it

Drones, aware indeed, they have absurd HP for their size

violet geyser
# rare orbit yes. sea is second class warfare and misses a lot of stuff that land takes for g...

On your first point i would counter that if the nuk sub is for non-land maps, then where is the anti-nuk for a non-land maps ? 😉
In regards to your second argument, strategic depth, i guess its right but is that enough to add clutter to the lab ? Maybe ill try to play more with it.

In terms of coastal sub, you are probably better off with blanket bombardment than moving in with 1-2 of these subs. Also its kinda cringe to add a unit just to counter one specific other unit. I think this unit would be more interesting if it would act like a Pulsar. I.e. same functionality as right now, but very slow RoF but very high damage. So it would be a sea-based sniper of sorts.

tacnuk sub would be good but really if your argument is "no counter play" then my argument would be "would that be worse than missile cruisers, which no counter play exists too as well" ? We know in this game offense > defense so really the main case against, which i agreed to, is missle cruiser overlap.

Drones, if you are aware of it, and its been quite a while, why not with one swipe of brush cut its HP by 50 % and go from there.

rare orbit
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carrier is the anti

violet geyser
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brainrot LOL. I retract that comment.

rare orbit
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missile ships do have counter play options, but things under water AND far away, have very, very few

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they're underwater coastal harrassment really, but snipers etc are the ideal use case

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anything that would be like a sea sniper, would be highly OP, same as tac nuke sub probably

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same reason we can't really use railguns on sea, anything too high alpha, instantly deletes something it sees without skirmish options

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and boats are just too expensive for that; glass cannon

violet geyser
rare orbit
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if I ever find the answer, I'll let you know

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somewhat it relates to boats being slow and commital, and metal heavy

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but I fully agree that hitscan alphas are problematic when they can interact with sea especially

violet geyser
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I can definitely attest to the fact that high DPS thingies are very strong vs most sea die the combination of "lots of M in one unit" compared to land as well as the abysmal low acceleration.
But of that's the reason, wouldn't a high DPS ship be perfectly fine just because it's target (land units) are the opposite of that, i.e. less metal concentrated, less sluggish.
Imagine a ship sniper or tachy.

Realistically, if this dude one shots a land tank at 250 metal, what's the harm considering the same land/land interaction already exists.
In a way, battleships are those sea glass cannons,.albeit not as extreme.

Anyway I'll try use the coastal sub more.

rare orbit
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problem is it would mostly be fighting other sea, land assault would be a side role if any, unless it's very limited in some way making that impractical

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and OP to counter OP is just wrong, just leads to power creep

violet geyser
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there are ways to combat that. For example, it could have a relatively high setup time, akin to missile cruisers. Their movement behavior, arc of fire and launcher animation means they cant instant kill anything and are slow to react to anything really.
To be specific in the case of a theoretic "sea-sniper", it could have a very slow turret, it could have something like "building up a charge" etc. Whatever the reason, it would absolutely be possible to set it up in a way that it cant deal with mobile sea units.
Anyway, thanks for the chat.

rare orbit
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somewhat possible to mitigate yes, but anything that spots for it enables that setup to happen out of camera, and usually any small boats are just picked off so you can't usually scout properly

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I do plan to do that kind of thing with T2 legion sea, but it won't be a 'sea sniper' for that reason, it just can't be

ionic sonnet
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What's the range of the new laser unit? Asking for a friend whose concerned sea is already op against land.(looking at u missile ship and flagship)

tired tinsel
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600

dreamy lava
rare orbit
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@round shore

round shore
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Thanks

round shore
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@solid lantern here

junior lodge
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i wonder where does the idea that ships are expensive come from? Most of them are super cheap for their value, like paladin is roughly equivalent of single bull, rocket ship is only like 2k metal - and you only really need like three to completely kill everything in its range. Battleship is costwise equivalent to three banishers or two tzars, while being infinitely more powerful . Heck, flagship costs as much as two thors while providing pretty much complete annihilation in its whole range, without any counter at all.

In fact, t2 ships being so dirt cheap is what causes the very fast transition to amphib units once sea is decided after like max 20 minutes.

I guess part of idea that ships = expensive comes from the fact that a lot of sea players seem to be point clickers that love to clump their fleets into ball to be sniped by liche. This seem to not be the case for land players, maybe because land units in balls always eat medium/long range arty balls and explode, forcing players to advance with larger distances between them

rare orbit
#

you basically have to ball the boats, at least T1, to get effective value from them

#

ships like AA are 1k, missile ship 2k, they're really costly for their utility and fragility

junior lodge
#

AA ship is pretty cheap all things considered, its comparable to flak building and has similar cost (850 metal vs 1000 metal) while being able to move

violet geyser
# junior lodge AA ship is pretty cheap all things considered, its comparable to flak building a...

its not cheap at all for what it does in my opinion. In fact i think most people would rather make 5 Skaters instead, they are way more mobile and less concentrated in M. Since reaction is time, having a fast AA ship is way way better. As with any Flak unit, critical mass is key. Having 1 Flak ship is almost useless, just like having 1 Flak building. They become good (op) in good numbers but then you are looking at 5k to 10k to cover one spot.
You are better off making seaplanes figs, buying t2 figs (lol) or placing naval flak WHERE YOU NEED flak and making skaters. Its different for Herrings tho.
Thats my opinion..

tired tinsel
#

the thing is most of team's eco are on land, and most game ending pushes are also on land

#

secondly naval has to deal with torp bomber and is suscetipble to liche

#

I rather not make 15 skaters to protect vs a liche that may or not exist or even go my way

tacit igloo
#

This would be solved if we simply remove the liche

sharp onyx
#

My general stewing over Liche keeps leading to something like:

  • make it the game's only high-altitude air (but not much higher altitude ceiling)
  • change missile for a slower bomb so units, esp. ships, can evacuate (slightly)
  • make it slower
  • make the liche blow itself up again, glory to the atom
#

If AA-vs-Liche is too hard-edged of an interaction, basically, move some of the counterplay elsewhere. Vision, micro, eco. This is eerily similar to my thoughts on torp bombers so maybe I'm not being as creative in my thinking. If there's too much pass-fail in the tuning, gotta try something new

patent rune
#

Shouldnt liche be low altitude? Its supposed to drop down before firing of the bomb

eternal wraith
#

Liche is fine, in teamgames not every scenario can be a fair fight, but you are not alone and can recover

#

Its stupid to think exclusively about unit vs unit in teamgame setting

sharp onyx
#

I agree, but to give some time to move out of its way, increasing its altitude + making the projectile slower is my idea

eternal wraith
#

Not stupid, sorry, but not very true to teamgame reality

sharp onyx
#

You're all good

#

I also just like the feel/mentality around "shit, that's a nuke, everyone run" vs just accepting it

#

But I know I'm in balance channel and should have balance thoughts

eternal wraith
#

Yeah, and if ur navy gets nuked, air could exploit that heavy metal cost of liche and someone can help sea recover. I feel lots of people just see their unit vs other unit but teams are different beast. In 1v1 you cant just rush liche vs navy

#

Most OPness fixes itself with time and more plays, its dangerous to micromanage balance

sharp onyx
#

I respect it

tacit igloo
#

Nah Liche winning an entire lane with 1 bomb is bullshit

rare orbit
tacit igloo
#

"oh haha your air player didn't notice within 200ms of the disambiguous radar blip popping up that a liche is coming and now the lane is dead" "Its gotta be a skill issue"

tired tinsel
#

rocket ship is really strong, cor battleship is decent enough, the cruisers are shit tho, especially the arm one

#

@rare orbit is there a way to make the abductor laser work like a shruiken laser and be a single tap with predictable dmg?

#

the "drag a line on the ground" makes it unbalancable imo
it's like 4x more effective against t3 than t1

patent rune
#

U can lower range and make it shoot over shorter period of time

tired tinsel
#

could it be this "impactonly = 1"

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

how can you change it to fire like shruiken laser?

rare orbit
#

crank beamtime down

tired tinsel
#

both of them have duration = 0.01.. oh beam time

#

targetmove error = 0 plus a very short beamtime should work right?

rare orbit
#

probably

#

but, I think we want it to be a beamer essentially, just one that can't retarget

tired tinsel
#

what would it have to do to retarget?
wait 2.5 seconds?

rare orbit
#

wait for an elapsed interval

#

and no this can't be done via tweak

tired tinsel
#

yeah for intuitiveness a continous beam woudl be good

#

but for a bandaid fix numbers wise ill try shruikenifiying it

rare orbit
#

I'll try to rough a quick rework test out in a bit

tired tinsel
#

im kinda sick of waiting im making my own balance pack (mostly land)

rare orbit
#

waiting how, I'm proactively fixing everything :|

#

abductors I've already done this with, the problem is it needs a non-tweak change which means it has to be emp rework attached

tired tinsel
#

not of your patch but like of X units being useless, Y units being broken

rare orbit
#

that's what balance pack does

tired tinsel
#

well each have their own opinions

#

i think you have lots of good changes but there's a lot of experimental stuff too that's more work to sell

#

like platypus to amphib lab and amphib lab cost up is overall a good change. but how do you sell it

#

also like turtle is still 100% unsable unit need to fix it

#

turtles/poison arrow having no LoS despite heavy tanks (bull) having actual los is dumb (in vanilla game). they should be the spearhead tanks that provide utility/vision on an amphib assault

#

termite is tricky cause you don't want to turn it into a salamander / sumo++, but it needs force projection perhaps

#

range dmg

rare orbit
#

some seems to have minimal impact eg demons vs razor interactions in the pack

#

nobody who complained about that has tested it or given feedback so I can only assume that was complaints for its own sake

rare orbit
#

units being blind is always an issue, esp for core, and doubly so for amphib as you can't take radar veh etc with you

#

turtles did get a los buff in pack also

#

sightdistance = 480,

#

parrows could do with same I daresay yes, issue is if you tune them for amphib hub, it might warp things if they're used on land

tired tinsel
#

they are slower than their land equivalents, I haven't seen a parrow used in a long long time

#

if you want to use a parrow instead of a rover for vision power to you

cold needle
#

Have you seen players actually using tanky amphib stuff as hubs? I think I've only ever actually seen amphib raids with a single unit type. Mostly because of the speed difference between all the different units

#

Like, I'd love to combine fast hovers with AA hovers in my raids, but the speed difference is just brutal

tired tinsel
#

stuff being warping on land is mainly based on their direct combat capabilities
and the lower cost of the 1.5 lab

rare orbit
#

in smaller games it starts to make a lot more sense to have a real amphib army

#

parrow los I can improve, it doesn't make sense for it to be blind and unable to turn turret also
salas spotting for it is usually defacto default though,so unsure how much difference it makes - but also little reason to not have it tested

#

the other other thing, is if you try to amphib raid with anything large/slow, you just have a tick blob rock up and shut you down for free

#

or very occasionally, even grunts

#

so once again it's the tick that's the root of unit usage limitations. grunts at least you're able to shoot with most units to some degree

tired tinsel
#

ticks are the worst yeah cause most dps per cost and quickest to respond

#

against pawns/grunts you can at least kite away somewhat

dreamy lava
# rare orbit in smaller games it starts to make a lot more sense to have a real amphib army

In small team games the main usage of amphib lab is to gain access to t1.5/t2 units as fast as possible, not always to go for main base as rarely you’re afforded the luxury of bringing a full army to their doorstep without losing too much ground in front, just watch some games from the last 5v5 tournament. Slow units are also disadvantaged in raids because you completely lose the element of surprise and even without ticks, you have com + porc + all bp in base to defend against these raids, especially since there’s usually 1 com around base in small team games

tired tinsel
#

ticks and mass seaplane gunship have advantage of not leaving wrecks
compared to tradition raiding / amphibs

#

imo amphibs have to be balanced pretty strongly because they leave 60% metal value

#

(unless you can drop a laz to reclaim behind)

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

not leaving wrecks means you can be much more carefree with your harrass

#

they could serve as a spearhead for assaults, less dps, but dmg reduction while not firing
they are slower so they are not so good for kiting/covering ground

#

as a spear head role they don't need so much range

rare orbit
rare orbit
#

eg you'd send one with a raid to help it get ashore and see what's in front of it

tired tinsel
#

i put 20% more dmg, 50% dmg reduction when not firing, los
reduce range slightly

rare orbit
#

no reductions on mobile units
would never be allowed

tired tinsel
#

eye roll

#

like the dmg reduction on popups got us fun gameplay

rare orbit
#

static which can close & bunker down makes some sense

tired tinsel
#

that's the problem

rare orbit
#

but popups in general are weird for various reasons

tired tinsel
#

you can't make a unit be tanky enough to spearhead and assault without giving it that form of dr

#

like a sumo is among the tankiest units, and even it can't tank t2 popup at all

#

well then you can give the turtle some more hp, lower range then ig

#

so it's gonna get kited to death on the frontline like a sumo/welder but it works somewhere else. lowish rate means it's not the ideal spam guard like welder

#

A unit's direct combat power is it's DPS*HP. in a afk shooting battle

#

so if you want to make something feel tankier like a turtle you have to keep it's dmg lower, otherwise it will be overly strong in close range combat

random forum
#

Btw for everyone crying rockets too op need change, only rockets can win, bla bla bla

image.png
rare orbit
#

nice straw man

tardy hearth
tired tinsel
#

prolly meatshield + los is the way

patent rune
#

I would use them as a package within amphib lab. With idea that the t.1.5. amphib units be as godd as t1 while also having amphib. Make em in between rocketbot and tzar

tardy hearth
#

increase its burst to 275 (from 225), decrease its atk speed proportionately, so it can 1-shot grunts. its overall dps is pretty low at 140

#

so its land role is basically to stand in front of starlights and kill grunt spam, or lead the initial bull charge to tank some porc

tardy hearth
#

Then optimize arm t1 amphib veh for killing ticks , so it can escort turtles in raids

#

More vision for amphibs would be nice in general, so can put a t1 amphib in med tank ball, similar to having a whistler.

tardy hearth
random forum
violet geyser
random forum
rare orbit
#

it's a factor of glitters being a purely flat desert corridor, and likely very high level players with specific map metas. it's possible the relatively narrow width of the 4 1v1 fronts lends towards selection for range and arty, as walls and porc will rapidly preclude rocket bots

#

I don't play glitters enough to know the high level metas though, it's a lobby I only join when more interesting maps not available

#

pounder and janus are very good for canyons lanes though, due to super narrow choke, so that might be a factor

random forum
#

This one is much lower average OS
9 veh to 3 bot labs

image.png
#

would be cool if those stats could be tracked within the game
ill do strait next see what labs they making overthere

ionic sonnet
rare orbit
rare orbit
ionic sonnet
#

Basically rocket bot op on strait imho. No need for vehicle. By the time your funny t1 arty shoes up the tzar or mauser is there to take your lunch money

tardy hearth
#

And commanders generally packed tight enough to zone entire core veh army, unless you go lame lasher spam that takes forever to kill anything, cant gank other lanes well, and then gets pooped on by early t2

rare orbit
#

yup, also starlights & snipers have a field day. rauders just outrace anything, then thors roll up the middle

random forum
#

well if it's one of each on strait, it's pretty good, also people like trash panda doing thugs push and not even building rockets on the front

tardy hearth
#

Rauders only occasionally an issue, not strongest map for them

rare orbit
hardy phoenix
#

I like core veh in non 8v8 games but yeah they feel fairly rough without a good way to zone coms like Janus can in 8v8.

cerulean skiff
#

That's just Core Veh needing help in T1 and T2. Although they do much better in T1

#

We've been seeing a lot more brute/Wolverine, which does decent in narrow lanes, but the lack of direct com threat is annoying for sure

hardy phoenix
#

Yeah it's a tough one because pounders are quite good at what they do they just aren't great against a skirmish line full of coms and if the lab got something analogous to Janus with ability to scare coms the lab could easily swing to being too good.

tardy hearth
#

And Janus poop on pounders, too.

#

Pounders good vs cor veh, tho, lol, just not vs arm

hardy phoenix
#

I like wolverines and I actually don't mind the new lashers too but what annoys me is I'm usually very bp poor as veh if I'm going med tanks/pounders both wolverine and lasher feel like they take soooo long for their cost without a good bit of bp.

tardy hearth
#

I actually like cor t2 veh, but aim weird like that. Imo poops on all bots (except spybots)

cerulean skiff
#

Core bots are carrying core ATM, but it's concerning because last time I checked core had a better WR across all brackets for the past few months. Veh buff might send them over the edge

tardy hearth
#

Wolverines don't translate well into t2, and if can't do enough damage with them early, they quickly become obsolete

hardy phoenix
cerulean skiff
#

Oh actually for the last month in 30+ lobbies, ARM is starting to overtake, but it's close

image.png
patent rune
#

Wolverine is better than shellshocker otherwise arm units mostly better t1

hardy phoenix
# patent rune Wolverine is better than shellshocker otherwise arm units mostly better t1

What's tough is in smaller games I'd usually prefer pounders VS Janus most of the time since you're frequently dealing with large enough swarms of grunts/ticks/pawns.

Incisor also really good in small games and not so much in 8v8.

Hard to think of any way to buff it in 8v8 without just making it broken good. Maybe something with lasher speed/bp cost but could easily overtune and get whistler meta 2.0 lasher pounder boogaloo.

patent rune
#

Pounder is only maybe better in extreme chokepoints like glitters canyon, if u have some micro janus basically wins

hardy phoenix
#

You mean in 8v8 or in general across the game? I'd agree in 8v8 but not for all game sizes

patent rune
#

All game sizes, more prominent in smaller teams tho same thing basically, terrain dependent

cerulean skiff
#

Eh, I think I see pounders more in small teams

hardy phoenix
#

In smaller teams though it's much easier to go around Janus ball or to have enough grunts/pawns to just sacrifice a few to trigger shots and dive. You have much more eco to support this kind of thing usually.

Pounders are insane value in small teams where people spam light units for a long time for map control. One pounder mixed in will change the tide of a battle whether it's against infantry or light tanks or even med tank wars due to impulse.

Their kryptonite is having to push into coms which you don't usually have to do in small teams.

patent rune
#

Pounders move slower than janus lol- pounder may not die vs grunts but do nothing vs rocket bots

hardy phoenix
#

You don't see rocket bots all that much in small teams though. Maybe a few for llt clearing but not huge packs of them.

patent rune
#

If u build bots u build rocketbots, otherwise thug/mace, spam is op tho

hardy phoenix
#

I disagree with you there for small team tbh usually bot lab is grunt/rez and maybe thug spam if you have metal and think you can win with it.

More often it's grunt/rez into veh

patent rune
#

thats for 1v1 because huge map

hardy phoenix
#

Also applies to small team although maybe less so to 5v5 on smaller maps.

patent rune
#

ye its dependent on relative map size 🙃

hardy phoenix
#

So hard to discuss balance for BAR tbh because maps and team size are such huge factors

patent rune
#

Its fine to originate from 8v8 since smaller team maps should have smaller map size to compensate, its the main mode anyways xD

hardy phoenix
#

That's not necessarily true though that small teams means smaller maps. Even 1v1 is played on a huge map size variety.

patent rune
#

1v1-2v2 is more of a seperate category, one lane battles as 1v1 may be boring lol, comet catcher can be played as 4v4 but is played often as 1v1

tardy hearth
#

Rocket bots basically need a porc crib to not die to scouts/infantry/light tanks/med tanks. 1v1 doesn't give as much opportunity to have a nice porc crib on a single front for rockos. More open field for them to get jumped.

hardy phoenix
#

We play flats and Forests and gecko 1v1 - 4v4 quite often too.

And exactly coura, without a solid frontline to fight on with porc/com rockets just don't feel like they get a ton of value often.

If it's a smaller chokey map then they can definitely be viable though.

tardy hearth
#

Janus also much easier to spoof out without the porc crib.

Funny watching some Janus approach a ball of grunts, then suddenly the grunts all fan out and surround the Janus

hardy phoenix
#

Exactly why I prefer pounder to Janus in small teams pretty often. I feel like I get more reliable value out of them.

Janus com snipes are still potent though if coms overextend.

cerulean skiff
#

Harder vs better players, but yeah

tardy hearth
#

Sidetrack:
Now that Cataphracts have double cannons, could they stockpile an extra attack? So like, first attack of engagement is a pew-pew, then pew, pew, pew . .

tired tinsel
#

cataphract seems a bit underwhelming

#

hard to get value unless you can hard abuse terrain or hover+depth charge

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
rare orbit
#

pre demon most T3 was arm, aside from shivas if the person wants to hold fire and micro every shot manually

tired tinsel
#

cor t3 popular as natural continuation on metal heavy maps

cerulean skiff
#

You don't need to manually hold-fire shivas to use them

tired tinsel
#

catapults good but lots of m

rare orbit
#

post demon it's a little more even, but especially on any maps with water, people try to go arm t3 usually

cerulean skiff
#

Shivas, Catas, Kargs and demons all see tons of use

tired tinsel
#

against plp who spam against you, shivas pretty awkward

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

hornet is just saying shivas feel bad to use below high os

#

so maybe there can be something that brings them closer in low os to high os

rare orbit
#

there is, I'm working on it
along with everything else, it feels like

cerulean skiff
#

I mean, if you're on a T3 econony the inability to make Junos is... yeah

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

Not to mention that the vast majority of core tech will be T2 bots, which have god tier anti-spam on top of god tier grunt spam

rare orbit
#

junos being removed eventually, remember

cerulean skiff
#

?

tired tinsel
#

there needs to be a juno equivalent, something to kill radars, and then something else that is effective against spam
the role can be split up but yeah

cerulean skiff
#

For your balance pack or the game?

rare orbit
#

latter

tired tinsel
#

it's going to be dumb if legion has a cheap juno bomber and the real juno gets removed

cerulean skiff
#

Why? But ok.

rare orbit
#

juno bomber probably reworking into something else, some sort of shock low dps high AoE bomber, but that could be cancer en mass, who knows

tired tinsel
#

rushing to remove juno is silly, plp can't even imagine what unit would be needed to fix it
when there are 10x more bigger issue in this game and juno doesn't even make for bad gameplay

#

juno is strategic and timing based and expensive, as designed

rare orbit
#

juno rework is a step towards a sane juno, but in ideal world, the problems it fixes shouldn't exist

#

in meantime however, hey ho

tired tinsel
#

in an ideal world plp wouldn't be defending tick is a well designed unit for years on end
mfw ticks beat TEN sumos for cost

rare orbit
#

yes well, here we are, peak skill expression unit git gud or something

random forum
tired tinsel
#

oh you better just bring 15 sumos with every long range unit you make

#

you just need to put them on hold fire or line drag when the enemy spam turns on

#

it can be a bit annoying tho i suppose. thor/razor is way easier in that regard

rare orbit
#

you at the least need set target micro and hope you don't misclick a tick

#

thor is broken unit design, shouldn't be antispam and anti large and anti porc and anti com and somehow also fast
so many hats

random forum
#

sometimes yeah you can use settarget on ground to kill defence or mausers/starlight

tired tinsel
#

the thing is thor is fufilling a role, being able to force a t3 unit response
if you remove thor it will be even more eco porc fest into behe

tame hill
#

not really, you just build like 7 and then set the factory waypoint into enemy base and walk them forwards

cerulean skiff
tame hill
#

sometimes you walk them backwards too

tired tinsel
#

thor does have abysmal turning but it's better vs coms than titans imo

hardy phoenix
tired tinsel
#

titans have huge DR on lasers vs com, their overall TTK a com is higher

#

i'm not sure if lightning can splash to jammed cloaked targets, ie. targets you can't see

rare orbit
#

but anecdotally, seems to manage it somehow
playtesting very welcome

tired tinsel
#

very important for judging the strength of thors at high lv

hardy phoenix
#

I'm going to totally change topics here to Shuris, I saw someone mention the intent to make abductors "latch on" to their targets.

Is it possible to do this with shuri? So 5 shuri could emp 5 light units but they need to stay in place locked on firing to maintain the emp.

It would make it easier for units to shoot up at them once they're locked in place and would mean you need a shuri for every unit you want to stop. I'd assume for bigger units you would need multiple shuris per target to keep it locked down.

Idk it had crossed my mind before but doesn't really gel with the way emp works now but if it can work for abductor maybe it can help make shuri less cancer?

eternal wraith
tacit igloo
#

I was thinking, a solution to the liche might just be moving all the t2 ships into the t1 lab for sea 🤔 and dropping their cost by 90%

rare orbit
#

abductor I did make into a latching form, but I need to change the unit targetting to do it fully, and that's not possible via tweak alone

hardy phoenix
rare orbit
#

they're slowed, not stunned

#

the threshold system is needed to allow non-stun lockdowns of certain entities, eg lolcannon and antinukes, but it does wear off faster

elfin frigate
#

Gotta admit that the spam messing with shiva's is worse on a map like straits than a lane map because you're potentially dealing with 5+ players all sending spam at you through a choke. However, I still think a bit of extra velocity in their shots so they predict their shots further away from themselves is a good idea and that's in the balance pack already right?

tired tinsel
#

toggle to not target scout or light t1 is better

elfin frigate
#

I think there was a time when Juggs just crushed scouts, maybe it wasn't in BA, could have been a different spring mod

rare orbit
vestal thistle
#

HELLO NERF THE FUCKING LOLCANNON PLEASE

rare orbit
vestal thistle
#

JUST PUT IT INTO MAIN GAME LIKE SAVEBLUEPRINT

rare orbit
#

I WOULD LOVE TO

violet geyser
#

My ears are ringing

marble talon
elfin frigate
#

WOOP WOOP

cerulean skiff
#

HORNET WHERE EZ 2 READ PATCH NOTES 4 YOUR CHANGES

eternal wraith
hardy phoenix
rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

That would be helpful, because I don't think anyone knows what's in it unless they're been following from the very beginning

rare orbit
#

I mean it is still pinned, but I do very much want to document it. problem is that means a huge trek about trying to look up all the old values, then explaining why things were changed

#

it's also only 95% finalised, was wanting to make it fully so, before doing that

cerulean skiff
#

I don't think you need to explain why it was changed, just the values?

rare orbit
#

explanation usually easier, and does preempt a whole lot of FUD
the lookup is the main timesink though

tired tinsel
#

just take 3 hours to go do that xD

#

all interested parties (devs, players) are gonna want a list of changes, i imagine

patent rune
#

I mean most of the variables are kinda self-explanatory, I guess its just needed to show what the variable used to be so u dont have to check the og variables urself

rare orbit
rare orbit
cerulean skiff
tired tinsel
#

the change can speak for itself 😎

hardy phoenix
#

Maybe we should try to setup a casual balance candidate pack tournament to give a little incentive for a broader range of ppl to actually play it consistently for multiple days and learn how the changes impact the game. I feel like even one off testing lobbies every so often aren't near enough to truly understand the ramifications of the changes but tournaments tend to promote practicing the game mode ahead of time to prepare.

rare orbit
#

this is also why I do sustained testing over long time with people used to the pack

#

when it's closer to a 1.0 then that might be interesting to do though

cursive moth
#

It's needed

patent rune
#

Yall spoiled, expecting explanations for the tweaks smh (-to be fair it helps if u understand what the tweaks mean)

sharp onyx
#

I assume we can use the unit stats json export with+without the balance pack to get a big diff of all the changes

#

That gets you all the changed numbers, which isn't nothing. It's a start

rare orbit
#

I mean the pinned posts do just that really

#

but yes I do want to break it down more

vestal thistle
#

When make ur balance pack readable?

rare orbit
#

after next version hopefully, which should be a day or so

rare orbit
#

@sour kettle ^

sour kettle
#

@rare orbit thx m8

violet geyser
rare orbit
#

it's weirdly tanky for the size, I'm waiting on some feedback from someone else about it still, but I do want to try a rebalance there yes

violet geyser
rare orbit
#

I'll ramping up testing after next release, which is a major one and close to final
hence will have a new non-cumulative changelog

violet geyser
rare orbit
#

ah sorry, those I need one person's input on which I should hopefully get soon, and will go from there

cold needle
#

@fierce wolf

gray edge
rare orbit
#

it's done, one bug aside

gray edge
#

Oh sweet. Whats the bug? Can we use it?

rare orbit
#

it's usable yes, bright has it
core AVP lab doesn't use the animation-less version in the pack

#

yet does in local testing of script override, so there's probably something deeper going on that I can't debug right now

#

only reason it's not announced here yet is needing that bug fixed, then the huge changelist/rationale post block

gray edge
#

Ah okay good to know, that won't have any tangible impact on us. Thanks!

dire cypress
#

@rare orbit
So your balance pack and Juno rework are part of the fight night, now?

#

Brightworks explained that there are additional Core units are included in the pack, which is a nice idea. Is that true?

elfin frigate
#

The balance pack also enables the release candidate units which includes some core vechs

dire cypress
#

True, I just saw it

gray edge
thorny leaf
#

@rare orbit see what you made me do (actualy ai done it, so someone can proof read it)

cursive moth
#

waa

#

u op

rare orbit
#

you're outdated but thanks

#

I have something cooking that uses game itself to parse through things

#

also not everything seems shown that should be

thorny leaf
rare orbit
#

it also seemed to miss some of the stats, and doesn't show what it was

#

I'll try to get my parser finished, it's a pain unfortunately though as it's an erratic tree format, very hard to loop through

tired tinsel
#

gremlin 115 speed?
fatboy massive hp and speed buff? interesting

#

this has to be bugged, termite can't have 7500 hp xD

rare orbit
#

yeah, it's hallucinating badly

#

@thorny leaf please delete as that's misinformation, thanks for trying though

rare orbit
tardy hearth
#

Termitenator

thorny leaf
cold needle
#

Personally, I'd give the AI-balanced balance pack a try. It could hardly make ARM more OP...

vestal thistle
#

Tfw the thread is 10k messages but I still can't read what the pack is

rare orbit
#

if you want to write the parser or do all the legwork then you're welcome to help

cerulean skiff
tired tinsel
#

Bots are so op

cold needle
thorny leaf
#

I made a 2nd attempt, this time with actual parser, not AI generation so should be legit 😄 Also, it's json, instead of bulletpoints but it's better than nothing.
I could easily replace all keys with human readable descriptions if someone provided me with mapping (for example, I did this with 'buildoptions'). For me most of these are understandable but some, like 'workertime', are not
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ny8vf1EUYONg1pDqgUY-Suz8HOhtW7a_-MNGNncUyPc/edit?usp=sharing

Google Docs
hornet changes summary

{ "Thug": { "health": 1100 }, "Mace": { "health": 1000 }, "Graverobber": { "workertime": 150 }, "Lazarus": { "workertime": 150 }, "Vehicle Plant": { "customparams": { "litelab": true } }, "Advanced Vehicle Plan...

rare orbit
#

problem is that doesn't show the old values, and people usually don't know what something was and always want to know the +- percentage

#

if it were just a case of a json dump it'd be self documenting :(

#

workertime is buildpower

thorny leaf
rare orbit
#

handy, how are you generating this? might be sane for me to use as basis for the documentation, as it's almost at a good baseline

#

if you could make it show percentage change, that would be the raw lifting done then I think

thorny leaf
rare orbit
#

eg Value of root['workertime'] changed from 200 to 150. -> Value of root['workertime'] changed from 200 to 150 (-50 / -25%).

thorny leaf
#

doable, but will take time. I'm sanitising messages now. Then I can postprocess them, should be easy to get the values and do calculations

rare orbit
#

ah okay, that's why I was using bar itself as the parser

#

it might be possible with a secondary pass with chatgpt at this point

torpid jackal
#

What does the retarget on Mercury and Screamer do? Reguide the missile if the target popped?

rare orbit
#

yes

#

usually they shoot like 3 missiles at a scout or something, then only have 2 left for the bombers

#

this way you at least get 5 hits from them

#

hitscan still silly OP, but retarget is the ghetto alternative

torpid jackal
#

Makes sense

#

Why are you making Hornets slower? I like them as quick boyes

rare orbit
#

they're in a very weird and mostly useless place currently

#

generally, most of the time you think you want one, a liche is much better use and value

torpid jackal
#

They make excellent strike teams, fwiw

#

My suggestion would be to keep the changes as they are, just leave their speed up and make the cost reduction smaller accordingly?

rare orbit
#

not usually worth it considering liche is only 750m more

#

can't have speed and range, and range is more useful for them realistically

#

only time they usually have value is when metal cost doesn't really matter any more, eg super late game where balance goes out the window anyway

torpid jackal
#

But Roughnecks are already the slow gunship boys

rare orbit
#

they're crowd control and leak response, very short ranged

torpid jackal
#

Still, if you ever want a gunship to operate within and behind enemy lines, it's going to have to be fast

rare orbit
#

that's the issue of gunships in general, they usually can't be, otherwise they can free delete far too much far too fast, if air is won

#

people are a lot better with bombers now though, so that's less binary than it used to be

torpid jackal
#

People that don't build AA deserve to have their stuff deleted

#

Anyway, I would really like it to keep its role as a surgical strike craft, and that kinda means high speed; how about giving it a big reload timer, so it can really only strike once and bugger off again realistically? Big alpha, low DPS?

rare orbit
#

that would lead to high value for high APM players, low for the average

#

liche already fills that niche, not sure another in same lab is wise

#

Item root['buildoptions'][11] ("Cor Furyinel") added to dictionary.
a which now

rare orbit
torpid jackal
#

Do you edit the newest B64 string into the pinned post each time?

rare orbit
#

updated in batches yes, otherwise people get change fatigue

#

the next will be paired with a full changelog from 0, comparisions, and rationale as to what's done and why

#

as we're very nearly at version 1.0 now

torpid jackal
#

Just asking so when I try to activate it I get the newest changes, as I would e.g. like to get a feel for said Hornets 😉

rare orbit
#

hornet change isn't new, even 4 month old ones have that

#

current is 0.90a

torpid jackal
#

Ah, I see; speaking of gunships, do you think Banshees could get either a little more range or a little more HP, enough to survive the explosion of a comm they just cooked?

rare orbit
#

no, T1 com sniping should be a huge investment

#

that arm get 2 tools for it and core have none is seriously iffy already, I'm not making them better at that

torpid jackal
#

What's the 2nd? But yeah, maybe Shuris shouldn't be quite as ass against comms as they are

rare orbit
#

janus

torpid jackal
#

Ah, true

thorny leaf
thorny leaf
rare orbit
#

I should have used python to begin with, so much nicer than luaing it

#

thanks greatly, will save a lot of time

cursive moth
#

waa document is even more op than before

#

fuck gr8 job

rare orbit
#

I'll go through it this evening and put it into sections & add explanations

thorny leaf
dire cypress
thick inlet
#

Can you guys pin the latest version? The latest pinned is from — 05/27/2024

rare orbit
#

I will as soon as it's ready to, also want to get changelog fully sorted first
hopefully next day or two

tired tinsel
#

starlight loses 14.5% dps, that's massive
levels up slower so less hp gains

#

should be far more balanced

wicked sky
#

Do we need to make a thread about tsar OP before some adjustments can be made? If we talk about balance where starlight is being nerfed due to its perceived opness in the mid game, how about addressing the TSAR meta which basically kills front or demands a counter tsar. Chrono, so where is your thread complaining about tsar being OP and being abused by players to carry?

#

Is it right a single unit, one of its kind has so much dominance that it is the defacto choice to outright kill off players, and it's counterpart the fatboy is a joke compared to it?

eternal wraith
#

But arent tzars only really good for rushing it? While starlight power spike goes until endgame

cold needle
#

The way I see it, a Tzar is vulnerable to D-gun in a way that starlight isn't, and multiple Tzars don't scale well -- its pretty much a "build one" unit. From my experience, there's more interesting and varied counterplays to a Tzar than there are to Starlight(s).

wicked sky
#

So how about tweaking tsar so that it has less overwhelming power early(nerf reload time and xp gain ?), and maybe making it more relevant to the mid endgame? Since we are talking about balance. Also starlights have glaring weaknesses and can never be sent solo without support so it always performs best as a setpiece in an army formation. OP is relative. Just don't nerf everything into oblivion as well intentioned as it maybe but see the bigger picture a strong tool in yr enemies hand can just be a strong tool in your hands. This is a war machine. Being capable at what it does does not qualify it for major nerfs unless there is a great consensus and in line with design intent for combat mechanics in the game.

#

Just a case in point. The AWP in classic counterstrike. A killing weapon. So do we apply normal sensibilities to it and try to nerf it as it is basically one shot one kill? What exactly is balance in this game? Where do we draw the line of what is to be nerfed if a unit is perceived to be OP when it is just doing its job? How did the original design mechanics come into play and is there a design document for recommended parameters for ALL units?

wicked sky
# cold needle The way I see it, a Tzar is vulnerable to D-gun in a way that starlight isn't, a...

Actually it is the reverse for early tsar in the hands of good players. They use it specifically to chase down and kill enemy coms. The boom of a dead enemy com must be really satisfying. Counterplays exists but not always done or impossible to be done in time.. So do u want a unit to ABSOLUTELY dominate like what a tsar does? I thought we are talking about balance here? TSAR is OP for what it does early game rushed. So no need for any nerfs and just have fun with it dominating all the lower skilled lobbies?

cold needle
#

I'll leave the more formal analysis to someone who is more experienced than myself with balancing, but I've personally used multiple counterplays for the Tzar, and all of them are available before the Tzar can be built/used:

  • Sneaky pete + cloaked commander walk for D-gun
  • Transport commander next to Tzar + D-gun
  • Spybot + rush with T1 army while it is stunned
  • Build 50+ ticks, approach from multiple angles, and swarm/surround the Tzar

Depending on the state of the game, one or more of these options will be available; the best one to use varies. I disagree with the assertion that the Tzar "absolutely dominate[s]", at least when the Tzar-user is of somewhat similar skill to the opposing player. It can be a good play, but the available counters mean it isn't without risk.

Of course, if there is a large skill gap between the Tzar-user and the opposing player, then the Tzar-user will come out ahead. But that's exactly what we would want to happen; otherwise why not just decide who wins each game by flipping a coin?

tardy hearth
#

Tremors just got a huge buff and spank starlights pretty hard now. But I guess that doesnt matter in arm vs arm mirror matches

ionic sonnet
#

Tzar is not OP. It has a good few counters. This is a skill issue(respectfully)

tired tinsel
#

jammer spam is the best (although eco can rush a juno -- costs a LOT of eco tho, 1200 metal converted)

#

spybot + dgun or dps down (gunslinger or fiend works the best)
transport com

#

starlight rush also counters it
1 starlight, 2 if you really want to be 200% sure

#

spread out medium tanks / blitz can be okay. if they overextend without support you can abuse the turret angle with fiends/pawns

#

against good players mass tick spam not that great cause they can just shoot the ground

#

and in general never putting com or wasting t1 in range of it

tepid mortar
#

Construction Seaplane:
Naval Advanced Metal Extractor added to build options
Hornet - you sure thats its good idea to add t2 building into t1,5 tier?

#

for me seems quite busted

rare orbit
#

that was experimental to see if it helped break the T1 sea deadlock, which it seems to have done. it also allows upgrading underwater mexes on pond maps.

#

it is possible that very high level play could exploit it moreso though, however, even in symmetrical lanes like Hellas seas, it didn't seem too huge an advantage for one sea to upgrade one way over the other. The cons flying also makes them telegraphed, and very easy to snipe. there was one particular example featuring Markivs vs (I think?) Kcorp, each upgraded their close water mexes to T2 a different way, the net result was basically the same, definitely needs more data points though

#

the ideal solution is, as we discussed the other day, the amphib lab to be more like a real T2 setup, costed accordingly, but with a T2 amphibious construction vehicle in it.
from game design view, balance aside, it's not ideal for a 1.5 to have a T2 building. Alternative solution is for all factions to have 1.5 mexes on their 1.5 cons but that's a much bigger debate, and probably wrong approach (I have different solution in mind for bootstrapping, one day).

eternal wraith
#

I like the seaplane t2 mex upgrade, seems like an interesting way to bridge the gap between tiers on sea

rare orbit
#

fun fact on the polar opinions on drone OPness btw. The core drone, has 675 hp, whereas the arm one has 450. Pack reduces both to 300, but that insane difference likely explains the marmite divide between 'holy fuck OP' vs 'wtf are you on about'

tired tinsel
#

both still die to flak in 2 shots

#

slightly more hp than a t2 cor fig

tardy hearth
# rare orbit the ideal solution is, as we discussed the other day, the amphib lab to be more ...

I was actually thinking about this past few days, almost made a thread.

Turn amphib lab into a bonafide t2 lab so amphibs can be less taxed and actually useful units.

Maybe just make t2 veh con amphib and add it amphib lab or something. Combine amphib lab and seaplane lab, so its full of units? (Also give all seaplanes to t2 air lab). I still haven't figured out a perfect way to go with it.

rare orbit
#

minimising trees isn't ideal, but crosspolinating them is. the T2 veh con itself can't be amphib, would remove an important barrier, although arguably the T2 veh lab should have the T2 amphib veh within it, unsure on that one yet

tardy hearth
#

In case of t2 amphib veh con, I figured it would be a soft barrier, i.e., moving much slower underwater than a t2 con sub, so capable but not ideal for deep sea mexes and such

#

But still at right now it's just spaghetti at the wall to see what fits.

Also, not really enough amphib units around to fill a whole t2 lab unless seaplanes added to the lab or something

#

Or if more units were made amphib, but that's getting deep into balancing weeds

tardy hearth
#

Not to mention t2 air cons can get any mex, as far as barrier breaking (but that's behind premium pricing, too)

#

Atm, t1.5 amphib lab seems intended for early/pre-t2 rush, which either makes it op if there's a pond, else makes the amphib units underpowered so amphib lab isn't op.

rare orbit
#

T2 aircons can't get underwater mexes

#

that's the root of a lot of the need for a real amphib con

rare orbit
#

the pack currently puts the anti rush tax onto the lab itself, rather than the big ticket units within it, although not in the ideal way (eg parrow turret needs WD40, can't do that via tweak)

#

but to do so properly, and make it real T2 calibre, needs a T2 amph con within it

tardy hearth
#

Remove 10% turn speed from p-arrow, and give it +10-20% turret turn speed. xD

#

But something about turret speed can't be touched via tweaks?

rare orbit
#

it's part of the unit animation file, not the unit definition

wicked sky
# tired tinsel tzar is not op, it's just very strong if unanswered

Yes the tsar is very strong if not answered because 1) it has high hp which scales and easier to keep alive for people who knows the art of repairing instead of letting it hp dwindle for nothing. 2) it has massive aoe with high damage that deal truckloads of damage on masses of T1 units, even T2. 3) it can skirmish moving sideways even retreat. The key comparison is here. Vs the masses of T1 units, starlight(s) will just die outright while the tsar will farm those units for XP and survive if microed properly. Also starlight beam needs vision to hit as it is pinpoint while tsar can just hit in the dark with moving radar dots.
My esteemed posters, I don't really care about if tsar is left untouched. Let it be fully utlised in the right hands and dictate the meta on a narrow chokepoint map. My issue is calling units OP as the idea of balance has to be dealt very carefully, as factions are allowed to be strong or very strong in some areas while weaker at others. Balancing acts should NEVER be done as knee jerk reactions but a considered view of the bigger picture of what warfare in this game really means. Also it is more palatable for alternative units be buffed rather than nerfs, though you can feel free to disagree on this point.
May more units be utilised to their full potential and see more play at least for the T2 category.

tired tinsel
#

against prepared opponents they just scout and sneaky pete up. if sneaky pete is nerfed then maybe it could be balanced consideration

#

i mean plp don't have to feed their t1 units into it, tzar builds have predicatable periods where they have zero units at home so can be slowed / attacked

#

just try going tzar yourself on straight and rotato. the unit is insanely strong in the right situation but it is high skill cap and stuff like starlight / spybot / and esp sneaky pete give it trouble

#

other units like starlight, etc. are not so exposed to dgun threat

rare orbit
#

starlights almost always have free vision from tickspam, to the extent it's a given
tzars and tzar counterplay is basically a minigame in itself. IMO, it's okay for one unit a lab to be a 'skill expression' unit than an everyman balance unit, although tzar does suffer for it later in the game more heavily than other similar units do

wicked sky
rare orbit
#

the whole pack is considering both sides of the fence. it's about improving the whole game experience, not a racial tug of war

#

and generally, yes, I much prefer to buff bad units rather than punish units for being good at their job. Otherwise you end up with a load of 'meh' units. However some are genuinely too outlier in too many situations and need levelling, which is when the nerfbat comes out, although I try to fix things 'the right way', eg, salas being spammed too much and too soon, is partly addressed through amphib lab costing more, but also putting other build options within it

young briar
#

wasn't there a gunslinger change in the pack once? don't see it listed in the pinned messages

tired tinsel
# young briar wasn't there a gunslinger change in the pack once? don't see it listed in the pi...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SyMJTPFKgm4SAACqP1uuXUDVpM2LBMykqJ7mpgGt6fU/edit#heading=h.rd7c4cvylvn5

Google Docs
HBP changelog

(formatting this is still work in progress) Todo: Section / tag. Sections loose presently due to technical reasons, will tidy for more visual sense Humanise descriptions more , add rationale for each change where needed Pack overview & purpose * To make the game feel better to play / add ‘qua...

tired tinsel
#

sniper maybe can answer tzar but requires careful micro (and getting vision is not so automatic, unless you prebuild camera perhaps), spybot is much better it seems

#

the jag part of the starlight jag is more mobile, starlights technically walk faster than tzar

#

starlights not effected by sneaky pete/jammer, where as a tzar by itself cannot deal with jammer, best it can do is blind shoot where the com would naturally be, or get spam to reveal (doesn't work if there's llts near the jammer)

#

jammer is very effective to buy time while your techer ecos a bit then answers the tzar

#

we see the tzar stomp sometimes there's a geo diff. good geo player will have a plan for it, good front player should have jammer if they see it coming

#

if you lose the tzar you are really screwed

#

tho i agree it's reaaaly strong on the defensive

#

what the other team can also do is reclaim their useless units and put it into pitbull etc
don't feed the tzar t1 balls of units and it won't gain so much hp

rare orbit
cold needle
eternal wraith
#

Hornet holy smokes, thanks for the gigareadable format!

#

love the explanations ❤️

tardy hearth
#

Hmm, Pulsars less range than cor t2 popup arty, same range as arm t2 popup arty. Seems maybe problematic, people will just build popups instead of pulsars maybe.

Current paradigm is pulsars outrange popups directly, but popups outrange pulsars slightly with aoe.

#

also, gib Halberds the no-miss laser treatment that sumos and mammoths got ;D

but in this patch i think Halberds will be strictly better than Sumos. imo they kinda already are better

#

kargs will be op. imo people sleeping on kargs. razors with their nerf will be trash vs karg/shiva, and imo shiva/karg already better than razor; razor only saved by its movespeed

tired tinsel
#

yeah halberds better than sumo tho worse turning and less tanky
sumo also have a more dmg and cheaper

tardy hearth
#

cheaper, except you can make a hover lab and like 4-5 halberds for the price of t2 bot lab. hover lab also much cheaper risk to build forward, and can be built by com or any t1 con

#

i like the halberd buff, but imo sumos are kinda weak.

tardy hearth
#

as for Pulsar, I like that its super super long range at 1400. it fills the whole power fantasy of making a crit mass defense of doom lasers to shoot down juggernauts before they get close. dont take that away from the newbies and raptor players. just maybe nerf price if its too strong

wicked sky
# rare orbit **Hornet Balance Pack 090b** Now with shiny changelog; thanks to <@197258555018...

Values: leadlimit and proximity priority refers to what exactly? So example for Catapult, is it a buff or nerf?
Sneaky Pete: consider cloakcost change from 25 to 30 instead. You want it to be an option in rotato lobbies or low energy/ resource environments. reduction in radardistance jam is a step in the right direction.

Advanced Radar Tower: Been building this recently. I like that it is buffed as it is pretty fragile/expensive.

Karganeth vs Shivas on Land: which would be the superior option as escorts for Catas? Maybe Kargs will see more play with slight buffs.

Pulsar Range: Reduction of range of 100 is huge. It cant hit back at rocket launchers. Strongly Against this change as there is plenty of counter play already making pulsar a white elephant. (emp, tactical missiles). Should u still want to reduce the range, increase the ROF slightly or decrease the metal cost. Also slightly related, consider coastal defences vs a winning Sea player. Land is already on the losing end to missle cruisers. How far do u want to stack it in sea favour?

Calamity and Ragnarok: Game ending weapons in most cases made much more expensive. If it ever gets build, consider a slight reduction in energy to fire, as a reward for even getting up in the 1st place for its exorbitant cost?

Equalizing Wind and Solars: Big Big thumbs up. You dont feel shortchanged building winds as Cor, and adv solars as Arm.

Fatboy: possible to increase its metal cost but give it more hp and damage? would be nice to trade with Tsars instead of losing to it outright.

Mercury and Screamer: Not possible to eliminate stockpile? Late game against mass air unit it becomes so irrelevant.

For the rest, we will probably just play it out and see how it feels.

tired tinsel
#

rocket launchers are 1300 range

pallid sigil
wicked sky
#

Negotiators 1310 range. Also u can aim the rockets (manual) in front of the pulsar with AOE. Even with 1400 range, still possible to snipe pulsars with some stealthy micro. Now it becomes a cakewalk to snipe pulsars.

willow raven
tired tinsel
#

oh yeah...
i think pulsar can manually fire and gain a few metres

#

pulsar has the op pop down micro tho, 75% dr

#

maybe long range rocket needs -30 range or pulsar +30 range in that case

wicked sky
#

Also we should examine navy missile cruisers, if it should be re-examined, at least to make less oppressive for maps with resource spot near the sea. With nerf to T2 statics range, missile cruisers have impunity with no counterplay...which is really bad imo. They are already very strong, with the current ranges on T2 statics.

tired tinsel
#

yeh the range is crazy

hardy phoenix
#

Honestly I've always thought the missile cruisers scatter projectiles should be classed as plasma to allow shields to work as a defensive measure.

rare orbit
rare orbit
#

I do want them to have real range still though, as they need to be able to safely bombard, that's their whole role (and god do they cost it)

#

the entire point of missile ships is that they are siege units from a won sea; they are the reason not to lose sea to begin with. they do have counterplay, but mostly via arm units

prisma bane
#

missile cruisers kinda need good range, or they are pretty useless

#

its very common to just make things outside their range, and its not hard to do

#

making them semi blockable by plasma could be a reasonable change though

rare orbit
#

I'd suspect the forthcoming shield change would probably render them less potent also

#

I'd much rather the boats have to respect statics rather than snipers tbh

prisma bane
#

it should be a back and forth
they should need to respect each other

rare orbit
#

so they should be forced to mostly engage statics, especially the highest ticket ones eg pulsar

#

pulsars I kind of dislike on principle though as there IS no back and forth, there's just 'oops your 2K metal boat is now dust'

prisma bane
#

thats a problem of t2 sea being kinda shit

massively overcosted for what you get generally

people struggle against missile cruiser because of knowledge, not because its op

rare orbit
#

indeed

prisma bane
#

or they struggle because sea never contested, in the case of isthmus

rare orbit
#

yup, often the classic trap of 'why I am I dying to sea' when either it was never fought, or nobody ever helped the sea player not lose it

prisma bane
#

yeah

or the sea player fought it, lost, and then made no attempt to disrupt their opponent

rare orbit
#

if pulsar range is dropped, that can be slightly de-boosted too

prisma bane
#

pretty consistently ive found

rare orbit
#

that would have been same PR, but, that was explicitly done to counteract the drift

#

if they're now actually stopping more promptly, maybe one of the engine pathing updates touched something related

prisma bane
#

its been like that for a long long time

rare orbit
#

hmmmm

#

do they stop out of range if you attack a specific target, eg a pulsar?

prisma bane
#

i have it as muscle memory to shift queue moving into range then a click

#

not sure, i think its only attack ground

rare orbit
#

the old problem, was they'd stop out of range of eg pulsar, then you'd issue attack order on it, and even if they only had to move a tiny bit, they'd yeet forwards, grind to a stop well within pulsar range, despite on paper outranging it

#

compounding with the instant death from pulsar problem, that was a Big Issue

prisma bane
rare orbit
#

if the halting on ground attack vs unit attack is handled differently, then that's rather weird

prisma bane
#

would have to test if its only attack ground, off the top of my head i cant remember

gut feeling that it is

tired tinsel
#

missile ship could be made cheaper weaker shorter range

prisma bane
#

shorter range is bad

and ill die on that hill

tired tinsel
#

it depends on how maps are created
2k metal with op range is like, either feels bad for them or feels bad for youa

#

you have the 1 river maps and then you have like tempest, erobos etc

prisma bane
#

they need to be able to project power effectively, they are pretty easy to shut down already

#

if a land lane dies, and noone does anything to cover it, then you die, and you die very quickly

#

if a sea lane dies, and noone does anything to cover it, you get slowly tickled to death by slow, expensive, fragile boats

prisma bane
rare orbit
prisma bane
#

thats fair

its most obvious shooting the geo sea geo

tired tinsel
#

missile ships are simply another way of ending the game (well to a portion of the territory)
so does streaming in t2 t1 units

tired tinsel
#

pounder with +3 speed is fire
actually can maneavuer

#

if they afk their medium tanks it can beat medium tanks since you can dodge shots

tired tinsel
digital wasp
#

You should just make your own discord channel for ur balance pack this thread is ridiculously long and impossible to keep track of

rare orbit
#

pin is the important part

quaint scaffold
#

ah, this brings me back

image.png
#

I had no idea there are so many balance packs now

#

Or wait, these are just comments, I'm an idiot

tired tinsel
#

yep just comments

quaint scaffold
#

The only thing that looks outright wrong is the tiger buff. It's not being played in 8v8 at all, but it's a staple of 1v1 games and making it any stronger is going to make arm even less viable.
The t3 changes might be too much in favour of cor too, but I'm not nearly as confident in that as the tiger.

Also the termite is cracked.

tired tinsel
#

yeah the tiger value is way different in open 1v1 maps

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

Oddly enough I feel like tigers are the least of the core veh issue.

vestal thistle
#

Tigers r good unit

#

Banishers behaviour sucks bcz of projectile travel time

#

Tremor is a cancer design unit that shudnt have ever existed

#

Lab doesn't have any engineer to assist t2 mexes

#

Lab doesn't have any stealth unit

cerulean skiff
vestal thistle
#

Aren't printers slower than t2 con

#

I would never make them to assist t2 con for mexes I'd just make airlab

cerulean skiff
#

They might be tbh, feel like they're rarely enabled - and I don't go core T2 veh much, so I honestly don't know

hardy phoenix
#

I didn't feel like printers were much slower than t2 cons but it's been months since I've been able to play with them. I feel like they're pretty value even if slightly slower due to 400 BP since even after assisting t2 con you can just keep them with army and have tanky microless autorepair.

thick inlet
rare orbit
#

poison arrow is the worse offender there though, tiger least of the issues

random forum
#

why do you think it turns slow? on the poison arrow for example

tired tinsel
#

against fast targets they do spend a fair bit of time turning
poison arrow is sort of a light-tzar so there's an argument

rare orbit
#

legacy balancing instead of real stats, iirc it's to prevent it being a solo rush unit
which is flawed as A: the amphib lab should pay the tax, not the units in it, and B: it can't be a mono unit anyway as it just dies to multiple anythings
usually, ticks

tired tinsel
#

yeah that makes sense, the unit is too weak for t2, so just make the amphib lab itself the tax

#

that way you aren't disincentivzed from making more than 1-2 amphib units

#

salamander exception cause it's expensive but still worth it's cost

random forum
#

i whish tzar had fast turret

rare orbit
#

I'm okay with tzar being slow as it really is a 'rush and micro it' unit, and every lab should be allowed one

#

but the parrow should be more generalist MBT that is also amphib, not competency locked

tired tinsel
#

tzar super needs the slow turret

#

it's the only counter play to it using non anti-heavy units, spybot/jammer
and probably the most satisfiying counterplay when you sneak a light unit around the turret rotation

inland moat
#

What is a parrow?

#

Oh nvm

tardy hearth
#

Pretty sure p-arrow can turn it's chassis faster than it's turret, lol. It's close. (But it has one of the fastest chassis turning for veh in game, I think same as salamander)

rare orbit
#

which rewards OP micro too much, making it too high a skill ceiling unit for general use. tzar can be that, parrow shouldn't be

tardy hearth
#

Well, at the very least makes it a bit awkward if you're trying to do any skirmishing with them, since any turning means the turret has to recalibrate

rare orbit
#

IMO there should probably be a general rule that any tank turret has to at least be able to turn same rate as tank itself, aside for exceptional units eg tzar

#

it's compounded slightly by reaiming always being slightly later than the movement commands iirc, so there's a bit of latency

digital wasp
vestal thistle
digital wasp
#

Yeah but u can't even 1shot most t1 units with banisher takes too long to do anything

#

1k damage is the threshold of just about to be good damage but not really

#

And because the rockets are basically hitting the target sideways if you miss because of radar u way overshoot the target and no splash hits unlike most things which will likely hit ground and splash

vestal thistle
#

the extra E cost upfront doesnt make sense

#

its supposed to be a cheaper, skirmish long range unit but bcz of the E cost people get sniper/starlight earlier than u do banisher

digital wasp
#

Yeah I agree should cost like 40% ofcurrent

rare orbit
#

or be worth the cost, which balance pack banishers are

tired tinsel
#

banisher jsut doesn't have the same impact

#

133 dps vs 265 dps at max range

rare orbit
#

in the right situation they are very good at their job now, but that isn't same as starlight

#

siegebreaker is the closer role comparative, although there are very deliberate utility and handling differences

tired tinsel
#

even on open map 1v1 they merely reasonable. kinda decent

vestal thistle
#

no it cannot be "worth the cost" of 20k E when its supposed to be a skirmish unit

#

it should have an earlier timing but 20kE just removes that. buffing it to be worth 20k E cost is just stupid bcz starlights n snipers r supposed to be later game units and shouldnt be outdone by banisher

tired tinsel
#

pretty much. having to pay the e cost upfront delays the timing it comes out
and it's so fragile it requires escort or to be near porc to not get dunked on by mass spam

#

on large open map where sniper/starlight suffer from mobility issue it feels better tho

quaint scaffold
#

but does cortex need another "all your t1 stuff is irrelevant and doubly so if you blob them" veh? You already have the tzar for that purpose.

#

rushed banishers doesn't sound like a great idea

rare orbit
#

aiui it's intentionally high E cost as anti rushing

#

but it is valid yes that that makes it miss the exact window you want to be rushing one in

tired tinsel
quaint scaffold
#

right now it is

tired tinsel
#

more so than the mauser?

quaint scaffold
#

if the cost is lowered as you're suggesting, then it's different

tired tinsel
#

you can have over 3 mausers for the price of banisher

quaint scaffold
#

the counterpart to mauser is quaker

tired tinsel
#

im just saying that the banisher's power is not so much in bullying t1
it's superiority (when supported and kiting properly) against heavy tanks and other skirmishers

quaint scaffold
#

the point of "rushing" anything is to bully t1

tired tinsel
#

not really
if you rush a sniper, I will pull back and let you poke me while I eco some

#

a sniper rush is to counter something like a tzar

quaint scaffold
#

ok, fair point

#

but that's the role of the siegebreaker

tired tinsel
#

hound is much better suited for t1 bullying since it has more dps per cost, even though it has shorter range

quaint scaffold
#

so what's the role of the banisher

tired tinsel
#

siegebreaker is a main-army can't retreat anti-heavy unit I imagine.
banisher is flexible heavy skirmisher

#

should lose to sniper/starlight/siegebreaker but wins vs most mobile t2

#

the reason why banisher is a skirmisher is it has good range but you want it to be constantly firing to get good value

#

it has okay speed to let it poke enemy units

quaint scaffold
#

sounds like a battleship

#

idk, I think there's a reason all long-range units have mobility issues

tired tinsel
#

yep

#

long range units + move while shooting + good mobility is very sus

hardy phoenix
#

It's been said many times before but I feel banishers could gain alot of value if it had an impulse value that allowed it to fill a similiar role as janus/pounder but against heavier t2 units and maybe even lighter t3.

I think you would see it mixed into tank balls and such alot more even with no other changes but that's a huge can of balance worms that could easily tip it too far into too good territory.

Alternatively if it worked closer to a lasher with a longer AA range compared to ground range and different weapon characteristics for each (screamer missile for firing at air and current missiles for anti ground)

cerulean skiff
#

But I agree conceptually it's pretty dope

patent rune
#

The mass values are prolly just placeholders currently

sharp onyx
#

Impulse above a certain amount just doesn't work atm. This is from an ancient data project, I'm sure some values have drifted, but the spread of masses is pretty high right now. These are just the units below 6k hp, too

image.png
quaint scaffold
cerulean skiff
sharp onyx
#

Impulse vs mass has different mechanics at different thresholds. First it barely skids a unit, then has sort of a continuous skid, then sends it flying. So you have a number of hard edges = 3 x the number of units to keep balanced. The way it's balanced now, damage is just so much higher than impulse, that things die in one shot so that players never see the true level of goof in impulse

cerulean skiff
#

Might make sense to have a blanket mass value for the majority of units at each tier

#

With some exceptions, but would make using impulse easier

sharp onyx
#

yep, it is a non-design tool atm

tardy hearth
#

Presently, Janus knockback is enough to stop a bull or tiger, lol

sharp onyx
#

Lemme check their impulse settings real quick, then

tardy hearth
#

Janus will also punt a rocket bot like 800+ units sometimes, so lol

#

Part of that may be from the double rockets

sharp onyx
#

Banisher is on standard impulse boost 0.123, that's only a little surprising to me. Janus has a very high boost for an aoe weapon, at 1.015. Pounder remains legendary at 1.8

tardy hearth
#

If seen a rocket bot sent into a cartwheel by Janus , flip around and glitch back to its feet. xD

sharp onyx
#

So yeah, bannies could get an upgrade without reaching the obscene tiers of impulse

#

Maybe 0.2-ish impulse factor seems fine to me and (I think) would put a pause on a pursuing tank

#

There's still just no way to make it crowd control large units reliably. The rest is fine

tardy hearth
#

I'm not sure if it's the buff bani needs, though. It already performs okay vs tanks, and tanks are supposed to be like a soft counter?

sharp onyx
#

Yeah. But that's the realm where impulse remains well-behaved, for now

hardy phoenix
#

Honestly I had forgotten about the shortlived banisher impulse test and its outcome.

Even closer to Janus levels of impulse would be pretty huge when you're skirmishing t2 tanks just like it is for t1 med tank wars.

Can just forget about trying to make it affect t3 tbh.

I still personally quite like the idea of having a longer aa range with a screamer missile when firing at air targets to lean into its dual role like lasher in t1 but then that might be something too good to have only in one faction.

tardy hearth
#

Dps for metal, bani is basically just a t2 lasher

hardy phoenix
#

The issue is currently it can miss sometimes against air and it's range is honestly not amazing for a t2 single target aa. It's only 25 more range than a flak iirc

tardy hearth
#

Buff SAM and Ferret. Let them stockpile missiles and super-rapid-fire them, and greatly increase their missile speed; for dedicated single-target stopping power.

#

presently they seem outclassed by both higher and lower cost options. the extra hp isnt very valuable, as it's a low priority target to begin with.

cerulean skiff
#

SAMs aren't bad at all

#

The real crime is how awful Ferrets are compared to SAMs

tardy hearth
#

when is a SAM better than 4 thistles? or 2 SAMs better than an Eradicator ?

#

I guess technically 2 SAMs + 1 Thistle vs 1 Eradicator. SAMs pretty energy heavy

#

Eradicator very strong. Has decent AoE, too.

#

another side tangent:

Turtles should have torpedoes instead of aa. change my mind

rare orbit
#

they'd be uncounterable underwater, the HP for metal is high for land balance, and in sea terms that's insanely broken

rare orbit
rare orbit
#

open question to the floor, any notable examples of maps / situations where Fatboys are actually really good units? and do those niche uses justify it being as low statted as it currently is, for the rest of the game?

#

currently I'm aware of coop rush on bismuth top lane, and personally I've met one being used not terribly on twin lakes park, but the situations they're useful in seem much too niche, presently

dreamy lava
# rare orbit open question to the floor, any notable examples of maps / situations where Fatb...

Decent on most lanes where you have metal to go t2 on your own on the frontline as a rush unit. Very similar to a tzar but has better handling due to being a bot + has better turret turnrate + is made from a bot lab which can also make spybots when you have more E.

I’ve seen it made on glitters by snoopa, doesn’t seem hard to make it work there. Fatboys aren’t bad tbh, just need to be microed. They’re also the price of 3 hounds but much better at exerting pressure quickly and being a real threat to commanders

patent rune
#

I have seen them surprisingly often recently but they havent looked like they were effective

rare orbit
#

that's similar to what I'd concluded yes, it seems partly held up because it's from a botlab and therefore has access to the rest of the tools present there. the handling / turret is nice, but dps is literally a third of tzar iirc

#

glitters I'm surprised at though, that seems tzar territory if you're going for that kind of thing

#

was it from a forward lab?

dreamy lava
# rare orbit was it from a forward lab?

Ofc tzar and fat boy are always forward lab units since they’re high tempo, the breakpoint between 1 tzar and 10 Sheldon’s is maybe 2-3 minutes of timing difference but it matters a lot

dreamy lava
# rare orbit that's similar to what I'd concluded yes, it seems partly held up because it's f...

Re: dps I’ve seen tzar vs fatboy bistmuth top and the fatboy won I’m pretty sure but other factors could be at play (player skill, uneven eco, different amounts of supporting units etc etc)

Off the top of my head I’d say burst dmg and bp cost (for repair speed + how fast rush starts) are more important that pure dps in real-game conditions especially since it’s not one of those units that’s afk constantly firing but rather manually targeted (which often causes input delay cuz hold fire ppl are slow)

digital wasp
#

If only banisher didn't cost 23ke u could get it early and level it up too

tired tinsel
#

banisher has terrible hp, the tzar actually can get 10k+ hp and good repair per second
starlight has okay hp it can get 20-30% more from levels

cinder sphinx
#

At least they can see big blue lazor and run

rare orbit
#

with boat accel that would still be the same thing

#

it's why I gave the Bastion the powerful 'searchlight'

#

at least some forwarning of a retarget

tardy hearth
rare orbit
#

kind of, torps are standardised, but reload could be long potentially

#

might still be too 'walking wall' for naval balance to adapt to

#

I could kind of see it making a sort of sense for arm to have something ducklike, but not sure the croc is it

#

esp as it's in the amphib lab and duck is not (in vanilla)

tardy hearth
rare orbit
#

they're basically advisory really

lapis radish
#

Fatboy is just a plasma version of Janus, heavy riot control unit.
Much like Janus and it's counterpart Tzar they're good at what they do but dear lord is it easy to cause friendly fire damage if they're not controled.

rare orbit
#

janus has solid dps though, somehow

#

aoe does make fatboy do more in an area than the raw dps number suggests, and it will land more shots than a tzar I suppose

dreamy lava
lapis radish
#

Fatboys are 4 pawns carrying holographic projectors hiding the fact that the unit is just a catapult throwing big rocks at things acritterpenguin

tardy hearth
cerulean skiff
#

The com can walk away, but his front dies

#

And it's hard to dgun fatboys because good players should have ticks in front

tardy hearth
#

People just sleeping on Fatboy?

#

Secret op?

tired tinsel
#

Fat boy slower can't chase com

eternal wraith
#

I think fatty has better range than tzar, but thats just my ingame feeling

#

Ive wrecked some boats with fatboy on straits

tired tinsel
#

it has 50 more range
but the slower speed sucks. bit smaller aoe

hardy phoenix
#

Fat boys can also use hills alot better than tzar and get that sweet sweet plasma range bonus

thick inlet
#

Fat boy should just be cheaper in metal. It looses badly against Tzar, yet costs only 200 less metal

split storm
#

Why? Fatboy can go places tzar cannot. They aren't the same unit.

tired tinsel
#

yeh fatboy is about for hilly maps
and on a hill fatboy gets some mad range

split storm
#

It's silly to completely ignore how much value bot climbing brings to the table.

rare orbit
#

not too many maps seem optimal for them though

junior lodge
#

People mainly want balance stuff for ismuth and glitters, both are completely flat

torpid jackal
#

Canyon: Am I a joke to you
But yeah, not the most varied terrain

tired tinsel
#

tzar CAN shoot up cliffs if it needs to

hardy phoenix
# tired tinsel tzar CAN shoot up cliffs if it needs to

yeah it can but fatboy is much easier to get into position ON the cliffs and benefit from the range advantage of high ground including spots where tzar is just completely blocked from accessing even slowly due to veh movedef.

I think a big reason you don't see fatboys nearly as much as tzar is the rest of the lab is just pretty good without them. Hounds can counter t1 for cheaper + better maneuverability and then you usually see sniper/welder after that.

Tzar is seen more often as a rush unit because it's one of the only ways that core t2 veh can get good value right away. (tremor change may be changing this a bit and salas were a good option at one point but after multiple nerfs and cost increase they don't really feel like something I want to get asap out of my veh t2, more like an alternative to grunts for spam screen or to follow up a breakthrough with Tzar)

tardy hearth
#

Fatboys half the energy cost of Tzar. Not super expensive. Just so sloooow. 3rd slowest unit in game, behind Behemoth and Mammoth. Maybe bump them up a few points, to match Sniper speed ?

rare orbit
#

fatboys in a very weird place to balance, they're also in a very powerful lab already

#

idealistically I'd like them a little better in some way, but they have bot movement so actual speed is more dangerous on them than it is on say a tzar or something

#

I'd also like to Do Something about the damn ferret, but it's also in an odd place as it's potentially invisible, until it's not, then it's never invisible again

junior lodge
#

invisibility on aa guns is pretty pointless, no clue why its there for, you cant even shoot anything with them since they have no range and no damage
imo, t1.5 aa could use some boost, or maybe whole rocket based aa could use a rework/boost
pretty much all rocket based aa things are super bad

cinder sphinx
#

SAM is not bad, Ferret needs a buff yes

fierce lion
#

This would be the place to discuss Phantom and Siegebreaker, right? In short and as a Cortex main, I do not think Cortex needs these Armada-copycat units. Cortex is not as much about sneaky as Armada so we don't need to copy the sneaktank, and we certainly don't need a Starlight that can't hit things because it's weapon is too low. I'd rather see units added that create more individuality for each faction, not more homogeneity. I know it's a difficult balance to hit, and there are certainly plenty of things in the Armada roster I am sometimes jealous of, but adding them to Cortex doesn't do Cortex's Cortex-ness any benefit.

tired tinsel
#

sneak tank pretty important for scouting tho

#

every t2 lab has one, they have differenta bilities

fierce lion
#

We already have sneak bot. More maneuverable anyway.
Seems redundant to need that in team games, but perhaps in an extended 1v1s I can start to see your point...

fierce lion
# junior lodge invisibility on aa guns is pretty pointless, no clue why its there for, you cant...

I might pose the point that invisibility on near anything can be useful. If your opponent thinks you have weak anti-air in an area after scouting it, that is where they will send their planes. Surprise! It's niche, but in smaller team-games (2v2, 3v3) I have often enough seen attempted surprise air attacks, so counter-surprise air defense can get a lot of value. Armada excels at taking advantage of those niche sneaky tactics, so it seems quite fitting to me. I do agree that its dps needs to be more in-line with the SAM though, that role is where it will be needed more of the time.

fierce lion
# cinder sphinx Chainsaw, Nettle, Thistle, Eradicator are all op

I have not once seen Nettle or Thistle be cost-effective. I never build them anymore. If the enemy is sending an aircraft, they are almost definitely sending a group, and neither of those defenses will do squat about it. The difference in effectiveness between them and SAM/Ferret is far more than their cost.

tired tinsel
#

nettles have really good dmg per cost, and they don't overkill much. only downside is they die to bomber dmg easily

tired tinsel
cerulean skiff
#

While it's nice to have a stealth scouting unit, I think it'd be much more interesting if they had something like a weaponless T2 scout with high HP and LoS. Could even use the same model.

fierce lion
# tardy hearth Fatboy currently seems mostly just a zoning tool. Best case scenario prolly vs ...

I generally agree with this sentiment about Fatboys. They are terrifying to fight, so we don't! So I'd argue it's not that they need a specific buff. Thought process goes something like: "My opponent has a Fatboy or two out and on the way. This push can be scary, so I have to respond by out-ranging them before they arrive, tomorrow." Which is perfectly valid, it is a tool to force your opponent to make a decision which is my favorite kind of RTS interaction. Once the lardbucket is deployed the question is no longer "how effective is my Fatboy", but rather "what can I follow with now that I am forcing my opponent to do X?"

cerulean skiff
#

Fatboys can definitely do a lot of work on a number of maps, but these maps aren't ATG or Straight, so they get a bad wrap. Twin Lakes is a great example of a map when fatboys almost always can find value, especially near mid

fierce lion
cerulean skiff
#

I would have balance concerns for that. bedbugs/tumble weeds are balance in part because they are fragile

fierce lion
#

Fair enough, I wasn't thinking about the health part of what you said there though.

cerulean skiff
#

If they land they can already clear 2k+ metal off the field

#

I think something that's tanky with good LoS, high forward speed and bad turning would be a great cortex addition

fierce lion
#

Just had a neat idea for Legion, t2 stealth unit that detonates with a Juno effect. Seems more Legion than Cortex to me, but neat.

fierce lion
#

I also would still like to discuss Siegebreaker, still seems like it's just a worse Starlight for the sake of symmetry. Change my mind?

rare orbit
# fierce lion This would be the place to discuss Phantom and Siegebreaker, right? In short and...

they are not 'copycat' units; other T2 labs have stealth unit, core veh needs that for parity. I have intentionally made it completely different from the gremlin - it can't even attack, it's literally just intel

the siegebreaker is also specifically different, but the problem is balance -requires- it to be hitscan, and that means laser, which means it will be superficially similar to starlight no matter what else I do. The handling and weaknesses are very different though, as playing with it will show you

rare orbit
rare orbit
rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

And just make it an hp sponge scouting unit,

rare orbit
#

HP sponge doesn't matter as snipers etc will still one-shot it, it has to be invisible

cerulean skiff
#

I also don't think core needs hit scan for parity, they do fine without it. Core bots are still widely considered the strongest lab on a ton of maps, and they don't have a along range hitscan

cerulean skiff
rare orbit
#

sheldon balls are close enough via sheer volume, and the mammoth/sumo very much are hitscan

cerulean skiff
#
  • long range
#

I think core veh can def be improved, but I hate the idea of needing a hit scan unit

#

I know you tried to make it different, but it just feels like a cheap knock-off

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

And imo they are kinda annoying to use

rare orbit
#

hitscan is also the only overkill prevention mechanic BAR has, which is -way- too fundamental to only allow Arm

cerulean skiff
rare orbit
#

banishers are not anti T3 and cannot be without completely breaking them

#

they are also hard countered by multiple anything, and no, hold/manual firing is not an acceptable solution

#

it might be viable top level, if you don't mind giving up your entire front while tacking away from the enemy units and set target spamming, but that's not what most players need from the lab - there has to be some way to powerfully deny monolith units, and right now there isn't

#

banishers are sometimes forced into an anti T3 role presently, in same way a spanner is a hammer if you don't own a hammer, doesn't mean it's a suitable tool

cerulean skiff
#

Eh, banisher balance is hard to hit sure, but I still think a cheap knock-off sniper/starlight is a cheap solution

rare orbit
#

they are not remotely knockoff though, that's the whole point of the unit design

cerulean skiff
#

And I don't think it's needed, especially now that we see the more core veh play recently

rare orbit
#

if I wanted to knock off a unit it would have taken 6 hours rather than 6 months to make the damn thing

cerulean skiff
#

DBS literally had a game where their entire plan was to spam tigers to over run starlights

#

And they won. I think leaning into that concept of core veh is much much better

#

And I can respect the time and effort that went into siegebreakers, I get it. But I also just fundamentally dislike the unit because I feel like it cheapens faction balance

rare orbit
#

faction balance obligates lab balance parity, right now core T2 veh are missing critical roles

#

that doesn't mean mirror balance, and I try -very- hard to avoid that. also note that nobody was saying an old cataphract was a starlight knockoff, despite using the same laser type effect

#

if the game had overkill prevention mechanics, and spam hardiness, absolutely, something like banishers could fill the role

#

but that is a load-bearing IF, and the game does not

cerulean skiff
#

I don't think overkill protection is as big of an issue tbh

rare orbit
#

I suspect most of the playerbase disagree with you there

cerulean skiff
#

Especially if printers make it to main, because they enable so much better frontline repair/reclaim

#

If you're saving units, you're spending less metal

rare orbit
#

10 starlights on a frontline, 5 enemy ticks and 5 welders appear; all die instantly
10 banishers on a frontline, 5 enemy ticks and 5 welders appear, 2 ticks all die to the same banisher rockets, then the banishers die

cerulean skiff
#

Now put a tremor on front firing, unironically

rare orbit
#

that can help vs chaff, but doesn't remotely zone powerful things, even ticks can still make it through
less of them, admittedly

#

core T2 veh also have no answer to a fatboy or tzar rush, banishers are not potent enough usually, and cost a lot themselves

#

siegebreaker is a counter in the way a starlight or sniper is, or the spybot & whatever else from botlab

tired tinsel
#

stealth scout is just better version of a tanky frontline scout

#

can do the same roles and others

cerulean skiff
#

Yeah, I just think having a tanky scout would be cooler, because it would let it operate once tracers are up, and let it be used as a meatshield

tired tinsel
#

so just a radar bot that's not junoable?

#

true that type of tanky frontline vision unit doesn't exist atm

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so it can just chill with your frontline army and gurantee sight

rare orbit
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I'd guess that anything that can be useful from out of pulsar range would be OP though, and if it's within pulsar range, it's dead

cerulean skiff
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My original thought was like a 150 metal tiger with no weapon and a bit more speed

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Or if you really wanted a weapon, you could give it an AoE juno aura or something

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But I just like the idea of a scouting vehicle that's different and has other uses, like tanking damage + huge LoS

rare orbit
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it'd have to end up like a land based carrier or something in effect, which would very likely end up OP by nature

cerulean skiff
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What do you mean?

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It doesn't need drone, just LoS and HP to tank to be effective.

rare orbit
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as in the sea carrier, not a drone carrier. solid vision support unit. tanky HP doesn't really matter much; unless it can tank pulsars and snipers, it'd have to be behind lines anyway

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it also doesn't allow any sort of behind lines spy ability though, which again, other labs have, and game design obligates parity of ability, even if not quite the same way (hence the unique nature of Phantom)

tardy hearth
cerulean skiff
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And I don't know how much HP they would need at what cost point, but I still like the idea

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
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I mean, they cost money

rare orbit
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it also removes the option of deep scouting entirely. tracers relatively rarely feature on fronts in 'most games', at least early on; I realise they're more common on OP games yes

cerulean skiff
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opposite the something like tartar steppe where you need like 10 to cover front. Also, What is the carrier? The anti-nuke?

rare orbit
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contrary to popular belief I try not to balance around any particular map, especially those two, as they are outliers in their own ways

rare orbit
slow solsticeBOT
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Unable to find a unit named 'armantiship'

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
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Right, but not at that metal cost, rofl

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Or maybe at that metal cost with more hp so it can tank pulsars

tardy hearth
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Tanky cheap fast = op . Just drive them into enemy line to make them self-delete with aoe

fierce lion
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Just to throw an idea out there, what about a stealth recon tank with okay vision speed and health and no weapon, but it's special ability is being "invincible" (Or just get a stupid health buff) for the duration of its un-cancel-able 10-second self-destruct? Tbh I'm not totally sold on this as-is, but it might generate some more clever ideas.

I'm also pretty easily sold on the current solution for the Phantom, but I'd just be happy to see something more flavorfully Cortex.

rare orbit
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no magic abilities. and that would also be completely brokenly OP as a bullet sponge

fierce lion
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Still not sold on Siegebreaker though. The main issue it is here to solve is long-range damage with overkill prevention, right?
What about something that operates like Sharpshooter but is flavored as a railgun?
Or super-agile missiles with retargeting? Is it possible to distribute a group of missiles to different targets in their area each?
Last, even if it is going to stay as it is mechanically, perhaps a step could be taken to make it look and feel more like other Cortex-y weapons, like maybe the Juggernaut laser?

rare orbit
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railguns are legion though; lasers are cortex

fierce lion
# rare orbit no magic abilities. and that would also be completely brokenly OP as a bullet sp...

I suppose I can see how that could be interpreted as magic.
I was thinking more like an overshield.
(Of course, if we are being superly duperly serious about "no magic", there would be no plasma weapons as in reality such weapons would be useless, and shields that somehow only affect them are right up there. Sorry, that's just a nerdy shpiel I end up debating with other nerds often. Probably out of line here.)

fierce lion
# rare orbit railguns are legion though; lasers are cortex

Always felt like flamethrowers and missiles were cortex, because Armada has plenty of lasers, and lasers make up some of their scariest weapons... Like the Starlight, which is why I suggested making the difference here to begin with.
I get and agree with the desire to maintain the differences of course, but there is already some overlap; I don't think one Cortex railgun would break this. Only an example anyway. I am still a bigger fan of the missile idea.
In the end, it just really feels to me like it is the Starlight but clumsier, and that feels bad.

rare orbit
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making it a heatray might make for a more distinct visual? at the time though it was keyed to appear in the same family as bulwark top gun, and cataphract laser
heatrays also more a legion thing now too, so eventually that might change one way or the other

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railgun was the original design by the way, but laser was preferred by other devs as railguns were too legionish

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so I reworked it to incorporate the laser effects into the design, which worked -really- well

fierce lion
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Yeaahhh, tbh I've been a little confused as to why there is as much overlap of design language as there already is, even though I was just leveraging that fact for an argument a second ago. Since the ultimate big bad scary weapon of the Juggernaut is a heat ray and there are already several other heatrays scattered throughout Cortex, I am surprised to hear that it is, if you will, "becoming" a Legion thing. Legion has to have its "things" of course, but napalm has very similar language to flamethrowers, and now the heatrays are changing sides? Not a huge deal to me, just odd. I'm sure the design language will be settled eventually.

hardy phoenix
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I guess one way to make the tanky scout idea not be broken due to friendly fire would be to make it visually appear as a wall which happens to move and needs to be manually targeted to kill.

So if they don't notice it you can just get it into their base and it look like a normal dragons tooth someone built unless you see it move.

rare orbit
hardy phoenix
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Precisely

fierce lion
rare orbit
fierce lion
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Also I just realised that my retargeting missiles example is basically just a long-range Medusa. : p

hardy phoenix
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Should be fairly easy to put in via tweak I think too?

Take dragons maw, remove weapon/popup function (so that you get the Los from owning the unit unlike walls) and add a move Def. Hp might already be decent too since it would keep the popped down damage reduction.

At least I think it could be done this was via tweak.

tardy hearth
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I just presumed Legion would borrow elements from both factions to make their own abominations. but some of that thinking may be from old legion models

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cor fire, arm lightning.

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cor flamethrowers, arm lightning, arm tachyon, cor heatray. both have common lasers and plasma. but cor plasma has more dakka, arm lasers more shiny

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that's how i always thought about it

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also cor missiles