#Balance Candidates Pack

1 messages · Page 10 of 1

barren salmon
#

and actually now that i look at the stats centurion is not THAT much more expensive then pounder yet one is considered good the other is meme tier

#

fatboy and gunslinger are mainline?

#

allso you forgot arbiter its definetly mainline

#

not as good as sharpshooter but still good

golden lily
# barren salmon allso you forgot arbiter its definetly mainline

100%, Granted the gunslinger has some tuning in the balance pack to make it better

the arbiter isnt meant for killing units like everything else in cortex mainline
although youre right, it should be mainline, but unlike all of armada units, its only really meant for killing defenses. which sheldons do perfectly fine anyway.
if it had tracking then fine

barren salmon
#

fatboy is just WAY worse then tzar

#

even at the cheaper price

golden lily
barren salmon
#

whatever counters tzar counters fatboy even harder

golden lily
#

its rare for the counterpart to be cross factory yeah?

image.png
patent rune
#

What is the role of the fatboy? Same as tzar even tho gunslinger exists?

tired tinsel
#

Anti ball

barren salmon
#

but it shoots so slow

golden lily
# barren salmon not as good as sharpshooter but still good

Btw, aarbiter an sharpshooter shouldnt even be compared, they arent even the same type of unit.
Frankly the arbiter shouldnt exist unless it has tracking like a banisher imo
Its a waste of a unit
If bar was a defense focused game maybe then fine, but atm its barely more useful than a commando.

tired tinsel
#

For hilly terrain

#

Arbiter is a high rocket unit for buildings and afk units it's fine

barren salmon
#

arbiters are cheap, you can place them somewhere near a cliff and get passive damage for no microing

#

its a 1 unit area denial

autumn marsh
#

i dont think you understand how the game balance works, you are not supposed to have the counter in the same kind of lab (i.e. veh vs veh) different maps favour different unit types and different factions, even in 1v1 you can easily change the unit factory. Just because you start with bots dont mean you need to finish with them

#

Arbiter is way more mobile than ambassador (which is the counterpart) and way cheaper

autumn marsh
#

and comparing fiends to sprinters is a non starter

golden lily
autumn marsh
patent rune
#

Makes me wonder why fatboy even exists in the bot t2 lab- there already is hound and gunslinger for t1 yet there is no unit that deals with t1 for arm t2 vehicle lab

golden lily
barren salmon
#

if you use arbiters on an active frontline microing them is better to prevent friendly fire

#

arbiters work even better then ambassador because bot movement is superior and they are not as much of a metal investment

golden lily
# autumn marsh do you even play the game? or all ur unit knowledge comes from the website

Im aware the website it outdated, but this only further proves the factions dont have consistent identity the balance is methodical or thought out, and alot of units are misplaced, alot of utillity is misplaced, alot of design choices dont seem like acttual thought out choices at all

The fact the website isnt a accurate representation of this 100% or even 50% is why we're even having balance problems like this to begin with some might say

1000 hours or 100 hours doesnt change this fact sorry

barren salmon
#

stats dont really matter a unit could do 99 damage while another one deals 51 and guess what when theyre up against a 100HP unit both are just as good

tired tinsel
autumn marsh
golden lily
barren salmon
#

even if the stats where acurate its important to not obsess about them

#

breakpoints and how many hits kill wich units in practice is important

patent rune
#

If u want stats prolly better look at the github full stat breakdown

barren salmon
#

there are hidden damage modifiers

autumn marsh
barren salmon
#

yes unless you place them at a natural defence point like a cliff or a mountain where youre not currently fighting

#

then its free harassment

tired tinsel
#

defences used in highest lv play
because they are cheap and repair/reclaim is OP

golden lily
tired tinsel
#

honestly if you've ever seen 10-20 nanos build defenses in a few seconds and reclaim them after they are used
porc can be pretty strong this game

barren salmon
#

bulwarks are t3 walls

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

sprinters super fast but usually bad

golden lily
tired tinsel
#

"Frankly the arbiter shouldnt exist unless it has tracking like a banisher imo
Its a waste of a unit
If bar was a defense focused game maybe then fine, but atm its barely more useful than a commando."
???

barren salmon
#

ok but back to the point of fatboys, are they used in regular skill lobbies 20 OS+?

#

i dont really see them

autumn marsh
#

every unit has its use in the game, some units more niche than others while some need a lot of skill to use well or at all, the game is not intended to be played with a single lab and since its focused on team games, most of the time you are not mean to play single faction either in a single game

tired tinsel
#

armada a-solars are kinda really shit. takes 66 seconds to even repay their ENERGY cost

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

they are significantly worse than tzar but on certain terrain maps yeah

autumn marsh
golden lily
# tired tinsel "Frankly the arbiter shouldnt exist unless it has tracking like a banisher imo I...

@autumn marsh
What i would ask you
Youre logic is that it takes more sheldons metal for metal than arbiters to kill static defense first agree or disagree , since this is your statement
arbiters are for killing static defense, NOT for killing units. GENERALLY
Fine, lets say i agree with you
what im saying is that this generally, its not a used unit often, because most people arent making alot of defenses in this game, this isnt a opinion, the devs have purposely designed it this way, the gauntlet isnt 1250 for no reason, the devs dont want it to be oppressive, its no different in t2 phase as well
If what youre saying is true and that a arbiter counters t2 art so easily, thats its only purpose, fine, but if nobody builds two very specific defenses

Bulwark/pulsar
and t2 art
Then the unit has no purpose.
Why would you build this unit, Same reason you almost never see aa t2 rocket truck
its not a combat unit, its meant for very specific use cases and undermines art
Why make static arty that costss like 5 times as much as a arbiter 600 does at 2500
so most people dont

"Frankly the arbiter shouldnt exist unless it has tracking like a banisher imo
Its a waste of a unit
If bar was a defense focused game maybe then fine, but atm its barely more useful than a commando
I stand by this statement @tired tinsel
Commanos arent useless btw, just niche, they can endgames afterall.
Because if defenses are already minimal, extremely expensive, rarely if ever going equal cost for cost efficiently, and cheaper units do their job better, and cheaper units like arbiter are meant to kill it, then the defense barely gets used, thus making the unit obsollete

If arty was half that cost, then arbiter becomes more of a mainline unit (obviously because its used all the time in this example. )
as people build more of them.
But its not the case that 100% of the time t2 art static defense wil be made. You cant say pop up pitbulls count here, sheldons/hounds outrange those.

tired tinsel
#

what's the problem with it not being a main composition unit?

golden lily
#

I can 100% fiends and sheldons will be madde t2 cortex bots every single game
this is what i was referring too by mainline, its likely you see them every single game, they are used every game
Something can have a purpose and still never be used
AMPHIB craawling bomb has a purpose, rarely ever be used
You can say its a good unit for its purpose and you wouldnt be wrong, but when would you actually need to use it

golden lily
tired tinsel
#

what's that?

golden lily
#

this

lavish goblet
#

lmfao how is this going on

golden lily
#

t1 bots as i said has the same issue, tiick and centurion both armada, but thats a bit up for debate there tbh

tired tinsel
#

the number of main composition units doesn't matter, as long as the lab can fufill most of the neccesary roles

golden lily
# lavish goblet lmfao how is this going on

i mean i like other peoples opinions on this, the games not gonna get better by not talking about it right?
@lavish goblet the issue comes when people see problems when there aarent any, like how people see me rn, or the opposite
@tired tinsel there are issues but people say their arent, How i see certain issues right now

lavish goblet
#

luna can you please explain your point clearly for me

golden lily
golden lily
tame hill
#

the only straight up bad units in the game are like, sprinter, t2 aa bots, and turtle. everything else has a niche or a macro advantage associated with choosing it. You are just wrong

tired tinsel
#

welder is sumo
gunslinger is a bonus gimmick unit
sharpshooter is banisher role
fatboy is tzar

golden lily
tame hill
#

Termites duel all other all terrain units very cost effectively

golden lily
tame hill
#

"this is common knowledge" = you haven't tried it

#

When's the last time you faced a termite?

#

I'll tell you I thought they were awful and then I defended against them with kargs in the middle of forge and by golly termites destroy kargs metal for metal in an actual battle when terrain is involved

golden lily
# tame hill When's the last time you faced a termite?

isnt this proving my point even more, the fact that its not used at all, but youre saying its better
even if youre only saying its better vs all terrain, recluse not only beats it in all terrain caategory, but also is better vs other units

tame hill
#

No the point is that this is the same argument every time, you think every unit should trade equally with every other unit at every point in time, which is patently absurd

golden lily
autumn marsh
# golden lily <@641682774670966795> What i would ask you Youre logic is that it takes more sh...

You seem to misunderstand the static def purpose. Static def in support of units will make your trade way more favourable. If theres a stalemate on the frontline, the defences always comes up in high level games as it increases the cost of attacking you. Persecutor and rattlesnake will kill sheldons as well as the arbiters, but you need way more sheldons metal for metal to kill it than arbiters. So it comes to the numbers that yes sheldon can do same thing what arbiter does but so can a grunt, its just a matter of how cost effective it is at doing things. You can throw 10k of sheldons away trying to break t2 defences or you can invest in a few arbiters with a jammer and try to chip it away for free essentially.
I can tell you right now, that if you think theres any land unit that has no use anywhere, it just means you just dont know how and when to use it.
Lastly you mention Bulwark as a counter to arbiter, not sure if you know but arbiter outranges bulwark by alot.

tame hill
# golden lily never once did i say that, strawman

Then why do you care so much about how termites are at fighting other units when they have a well defined role that they are so strong at? Whether or not that's what you say, that's clearly what you believe because that's what your arguments boil down to. Complaining about labs not having the exact equal roles with units that trade exactly equally with their counterparts is that exact argument.

patent rune
#

Termites move slower than recluse

golden lily
# autumn marsh You seem to misunderstand the static def purpose. Static def in support of units...

Im more saying that as it is right now, alot of units will be used 1/100 games
if even that

Commandos for example CAN be used every game. Their Role doesnt change based on the game, its the same regardless right?, Whether no aa or aa is present
People will still opt to use bombers equal in meta cost than a single commando. So youre right, theres a use, but why use it if theres something better, more effective at winning and getting the outcome.

tame hill
#

Yup, exactly. That is exactly everyone's point, that message ^^^^

#

You are complaining about units not all being generalists

golden lily
golden lily
# tame hill You are complaining about units not all being generalists

No, but im saying that if youre argument is

Thermite beats other all terrain
then recluse shouldnt beat Thermite 100% of the time but it does
AND ontop of that beat other units and is able to support other compositions
its simple rock paper scissors by your logic
In your analogy here, Thermite is rock recluse is scissors everything else is paper
This isnt true Thermite isnt holding its weight here

tame hill
#

No, the problem is you think this is rock paper scissors but it isn't. Centurion has longer range and is faster then sumo. Clearly sumo has no uses

patent rune
#

Luna ur right about the Thermite at very least lol

golden lily
patent rune
#

I dont get it- Nerf recluse speed and buff thermite speed imo

barren salmon
#

what are we even arguaing about at this point lol

golden lily
# patent rune I dont get it- Nerf recluse speed and buff thermite speed imo

At least then theyd do what hes saying they're supposed too
But bar isnt a 1v1 unit game
its unit compositions, Thermite DOESNT fit into compositions based on the role hes saying
recluse tottally does tho, range and damage are both fantastic as a support unit, especialy because its a cheap spammable unit. 100 of tthose vs big slow tt3 units can do alott

thermite has no real support applications, Maybe its the weapon, speed, damage, all 3? but its not about every unit being generalist

tame hill
#

Try attacking into termites with recluses and you'll see. The fact that that situation does not come up very often and you don't think to try it when it does, is not a flaw of termite

barren salmon
#

cor is missing long range damage dealers yeah that has been said a lot of times before

#

i personally just had an issue with calling gunslinger and fatboy meta without giving any credit to arbiter lol

golden lily
#

My real point is about inconsistency in general
I think alot of Things are obvious why they belong where they do, but alot of Specifc examples do not have logical design consistency
I can give like 100 but its not about how many
Im really trying to iron out exactly what cortex and Armada even are at this point

LEGION at this point has more of a idea what it is uniquely then both existing factions that have had way longer time spent and conversations
yet if you wanted me to tell you unique legion mechanaics, weapons, playstyles. Its easy just by looking at tthe faction, its simple, direct
Arm and cortex still have these issues

Example
Someone says
Arm is the cloak and emp faction
Primarily sure but
Except for all of the times where cortex has cloak and emp when arm doesn't for some reason
crawling bombs for example dont have a reason they belong to cortex over armada that i can see
, Shuriken as well shouldnt be a cortex thing, its only there because arm has abductor so one faction shouldnt have both im assuming, but why exactly
this sort of thing

Balance VS faction identity
Shouldnt we know what we actually want the factions to be then we balance them after the fact? at this point so many units feel like they belong to the counterfaction
@lavish goblet THIS essentially is my point
As such, alot of units dont feel like their filling their role, are useless most of the time, or if not that, then at minimum create a imbalance in faction design with no specifc reason as to why other than "well its always been this way"

Centurion tick EX
Its not like Cortex t1 veh has extra units in opposition for example

clever lava
#

First of all this is ridiculous. Geos are easily accessible economy strategic points that are essentially quite easy to set up. The core has Assault mexes, t1 and t2. They have a safe geo and and a 'ill destroy everything I can shoot' at geo. Arm has this joke of a specialised mex. The cloaked mex, which is nothing but a money hole. That needs to die in order to it be of any value. See my thorough dilberation on the issue here https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1247934890150989884.
@golden lily rightly identifies the ...i dont know....whatever reason the arm dont have access to the t2 cloak mex that actually does its job and doesnt quit after the first customer. And ARM Geos are nothing but high risk explosive devices. It makes no sense that the prude and the cerberus are both cores. If anything the prude should be a Arms.
Onto my next point:
You cant just take Arm units and give them to Core. You will literally start a revolution. Essentially anything that has been ceremoniously passed on from TA to BA etc and now to BAR should be left intact. Also its lazy... Just come up with a new unit that is ...like in all bar traditions Same same but different same.

I think a mini banisher that maybe has a mini catapult style missile volley could be something cool to put in. Or a bot that needs to deploy supports to launch a heavy missile or something. More mechs . Helicopters. Decent hover units for crying out loud. The mechabellum game has a wealth of creative unit combinations to draw from.... they literally have a giant four legged walking AFUS that fires a energy beam. Very cool ... But taking units from one faction and giving them to another.

As much as I would be tempted by the offer of a shuriken swap..even though it makes factional sense...i would be hard bound to decline such a gross violation of lore and faction ettiquette

Discord
Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games

Discord is great for playing games and chilling with friends, or even building a worldwide community. Customize your own space to talk, play, and hang out.

#

no idea what the fuck that discord advert is but anyway

#

sorry luna u werent part of the unit swap heresy. That point just followed on from what I was discussing with you

golden lily
tame hill
#

for example this is what recluses vs termites on actual terrain with micro. if you don't call this a resounding victory for termites idk what to say

clever lava
#

I think there should be a scorpion too

#

Lol. Spider has 8 eyes and cant hit shit. 0.01% accuracy

#

Still i think this dynamic between the termite and spider is a healthy one

#

Now he spider just needs a web to swing away with

tame hill
#

Yes exactly. when there's terrain, then termite destroys recluses because they are effected much less

golden lily
tame hill
#

The spiders can't attack at max range because of the terrain

#

obviously if you have both sit still at max range on flat ground then recluses win

golden lily
#

you do know that recluses outrange them right, thats their strength
sure even on that map its easy to kite them into victory this proves nothing. Flat ground or terrain makes no diff

#

Buff termites speed, then fine

clever lava
#

i love those spiders. I love the catapult too. Just reckless destruction. I dig it. I am a big advocate for the Epic Recluse getting a style treatment and becoming an actual t3 unit

tame hill
#

I microd that quite reasonable, the recluses approached until they could attack, and then they kited away, trying to maintain positions where they can attack when they could

clever lava
#

Also i think the Karg should be bigger and really fuck shit up

clever lava
#

And I think the creative license for T3 air units could extend beyond make a boat fly. 🤣❤️ Just saying

#

@golden lily im happy to talk about this stuff. All day. Honestly I deep think about it almost everyday. Hit me up on a DM and we can arrange something

barren salmon
#

i think flying fortress could be moved to gantry and in exchange cortex gets a heavy bomber like liche, maybe with cluster amunitions

#

armada could then get their own flying fortress for gantry and legion allso has one that can get moved to gantry

barren salmon
#

something that would allso be very healthy for the game in my opinion, would be t3 fighters, they should in small scale battles be less efficiant then t2 fighters and allso not be radar invisible, however in order to make them better in the lategame they should have a large AOE on their attacks so that they kill lots of t1 and t2 fighters in one attack

#

this way people dont spam 800 t2 fighters

golden lily
barren salmon
#

no its not longbow has cluster munitions

#

and i think this kind of aproach shouldnt be a thing, its fine to give a faction more of something but its allso fine that cortex has a few EMP and cloaking units in my opinion

#

at the end of the day cortex wouldnt really have anything that is theirs and is good that other factions dont have

#

like if we really follow the design philosophy the liche is a cortex unit

golden lily
rare orbit
barren salmon
#

its allready an armada unit and that is perfectly fine, just give cortex some kind of t2 mass carpet bomber

#

liche has a lot of HP having a bomber with more HP is very usefull

golden lily
#

Personally id rather each faction be unique and have its own unit philosophy
You saying this is kinda a issue already. This already applies

if it was solely up to me in defining the factions or at least defining and fixing whats already preseent

Armada/ Higher energy Cheaper metal cost / Cloak, Emp, Lightning, beams (starlight/pulsar/beamer turret) and Plasma, Fast and nimble. Lower HP.
Cortex/Lower energy cost Higher metal cost. /Armored Rockets, Lasers, red/green. AOE or high alpha, Big damage, slow, High hp Expensive
Legion The middleground between both. Napalm, Gatling, Heat. Sustained damage. Cluster AOE

golden lily
barren salmon
#

the factions are allready unique i dont think this strict following of certain rules is necessary

rare orbit
#

this is overlapping with the area the game design document is slowly inching towards, broadly speaking, the factions should be more different

golden lily
rare orbit
#

but until it's codified how, it's very hard to change anything there

barren salmon
#

when it comes to stuff like cloaking tho its very unhealthy to give it mostly to 1 faction

#

because there is a counter building against cloaking units

rare orbit
#

speed, range, cloak, all OP, and somehow all arm

golden lily
rare orbit
barren salmon
#

you can argue that the liche is too acurate and efficiant for cortex

golden lily
barren salmon
#

no cloak is fine right now

#

this is exactly what i dont want

rare orbit
#

liche is probably okay as arm, but dragon is a little weak comparatively, liches too good offence and defence, dragons only really good defence unless you already won (or were zow smurfing)

golden lily
rare orbit
#

it wouldn't be as bad if the tremor was genuinely a carpet bombing tool
as vision much less relevant then

golden lily
barren salmon
#

tremor would be incredibly frustrating if it was good, just like the t2 napalm artillery from legion

rare orbit
#

juggernauts have it too

ionic sonnet
#

Let's make liche be able to cloak for consistency

golden lily
rare orbit
#

cloaking air is basically nonviable as they fly at different heights, you can't collide them to get real hits from radar dots

barren salmon
#

i was playing around with making a tweak unit that turns the old cortex dragon into an armada flying fortress with cloak and radar invisibility

#

but sadly the shooting animation is bugged

golden lily
barren salmon
#

lol calm down i was gonna make it relatively weak in terms of DPS but instead it would be a flying t3 scout with EMP lasers

rare orbit
#

no more flying emp

barren salmon
#

honestly abductor could get the EMP removed

golden lily
#

ACTUALLY, Heres a great example of what i mean

legion has a t1 laser tower thats the same as both factions
yet it looks sounds, shoots completely visually diff
even tthough its exactly the same, it 100% makes the faction stand out

this is the sort of thing arm and core are missing
Visual differences go along way in making things feel unique.
Gameplay is important as well ofc

#

but if the roles are gonna stay the same for all factions, (which they arent rn, Commando for example and gunslinger are both speciall role units)
then at minimum visual overhauls should be a priority

barren salmon
#

t1 legion laser is not the same?

golden lily
barren salmon
#

im pretty sure the legion llt is shorter range higher damage

rare orbit
#

there's a few related issues there
one is that arm/core LLT look the same and does the same
mace and thug are visually similar but almost identical but not quite in reality
anything that looks different, should either be a different role, or clear in the way it isn't an analogue, eg tiger & bull

barren salmon
#

i think mace is quicker then thug

#

should be the other way

golden lily
rare orbit
#

legion LLT is more powerful, fires less often

#

same range though, a little worse against spam as a result

rare orbit
barren salmon
#

does this rebalance patch touch any t1 stuff except janus?

rare orbit
#

by the time tigers can shoot bulls, they've less HP themselves

rare orbit
golden lily
#

@rare orbit
ive never asked
if you could have your way
how would armada corttex and legion be diff

Asym or full sym, a mix of both. What would you change

rare orbit
#

long discussion way out of thread scope

barren salmon
#

i was thinking maybe grunt vs pawn could be more balanced if grunt got price increased by 3 metal and hp raised to 360 (higher then pawn) but pawn gets range increased by 20 to 200 (30 less then grunt)

rare orbit
#

game design document is a reasonable basis for distinction but needs finishing first

golden lily
rare orbit
#

and there's a large element of chicken and egg with it unfortunately

tired tinsel
#

if pawn gets past frontline its a far better raider

barren salmon
#

not as good as tick

tired tinsel
#

its a punchy radar crazy dps glass cannon
tick is low commitment hyper speed

barren salmon
#

cant catch it thats what i mean

thick inlet
barren salmon
#

it fits the same theme as putting the flagship into amphib gantry

#

and it makes it easier to balance these units

thick inlet
# golden lily Personally id rather each faction be unique and have its own unit philosophy Yo...

Plasma should be Cor IMO. For aoe arm could actually have rockets, but plasma being more like “fire” and extremely destructive (wide AOE) it’s really a Cartex thing. + Cor has so many plasma units already, I would like to see Stout and Bull use something else than plasma to differentiate from Cor. I already proposed simply giving them lightning (as it has aoe essentially), but some say it could be OP as it is hitscan..not sure would have to be ballanced of course

golden lily
barren salmon
#

this wouldnt be a good idea because the majority of units for all faction are plasma and we have plasma shields dedicated to block their projectiles

#

if only cortex had plasma the shield would be a anti cortex building

#

and if only armada had cloak the anti cloak building would be an anti armada building

golden lily
#

Still kinda on the shields should block everything but be weaker team but thats just me.

barren salmon
#

i mean whats nextz only one faction has nuke silos so you only make anti nuke when playing against a certain faction

golden lily
golden lily
thick inlet
clever lava
#

Ffs. theres always so much to respond to. Im quite far back.Ill do my best to keep it relevant

clever lava
barren salmon
#

my point is just what does cortex have if they dont even get the liche under this design philosophy

#

armada gets cloak emp and high efficiant damage

#

this is why following the design that strictly is bad

clever lava
# barren salmon armada could then get their own flying fortress for gantry and legion allso has ...

I have 2 rolling concepts about what t3 would essentially be. It could be a support platform. Like mobile highpower con turrets and radar and jammers . Maybe could be like a flying factory or something. Support role.

The other one would a three or 4 shot ultra long range cruise missile banisher vibe. but hit hard and make a mess. 1 missile a second. long recharge. And crazy range. It would force the other team to engage their air units or push heavily to counter the threat

#

This would bring dynamic to air play and strategy late game.

barren salmon
#

yep was thinking of an armada support flying fortress too maybe with radar sonar and jammer

clever lava
#

Maybe u could include those gattling cannons for all races or have a new air defense specifically at firing those missiles down

clever lava
thick inlet
barren salmon
#

but every faction allready has LRPCs

#

and a lot of other plasma weapons

clever lava
barren salmon
#

i think its fine for rockets to go through its just that longbows (t2 missile ships) are a bit too good for their price

#

its one of those things that makes rockets special i dont want every weapon to be the same

#

there are game rules attatched to certain things, like plasma rockets cloak EMP, and so far evryone who said it would be better to give these things to only one faction has allso said in the same breath that we need to erradicate the game rules involved so its balanced without then realising that we just made plasma and rockets allmost the same

thick inlet
clever lava
#

Im going to start a lobby and play night mode in it. Hornet if u want to put the balance patch tweak code in . Ill happily run it.

#

and if anyone wants to come jam

barren salmon
#

i just think its good that these things are not just reskins of one another but if only 1 faction has access to something its very likely we have to just turn it into reskins of each other

clever lava
#

Where can i find the tweak? I want to run it without always having to bother people

#

Wait do I paste this into the Unit tweak row or the Unit Def row?

barren salmon
#

my guess is unit tweaks?

#

unit defs is changing broad game rules like all t1 or all t2 get a price increase or decrease

clever lava
#

yeah i think i did it. Just running a inactive ai lobby atm

clever lava
#

I cant get it to work

rare orbit
#

tweak units field

#

or type !bset tweakunits + the hash

dire cypress
#

@tired tinsel
You are absolutely right advanced solars are quite underwhelming in general. Arm ones even more so.
I am pointing at the difference of the two adv. solars. And while 1000e might sound much, it really isn't when you look at the grand theme of things. You normally have like an income of 200-400 when you build your first adv. solar. So it isn't that much of a difference until it is up. Let's say it takes 4 seconds longer as a Core adv. solar IF you concentrate on the adv solar. If not, it takes forever.

Or when you look at the time when adv. solars are built in terms of already spent e. 10 brutes were produced. Costing 3k each. I think you get what I am saying.

Never the less: adv. Solars aren't really good on either side. And 20% cost difference of even one resource feels much. Even if it is later in the game and even if it's a building that is built rarely more often than 4-6 times.

This is why the 20% cost difference of the casual 50-500+ windmills are so impactful.

cinder sphinx
patent rune
#

Idk about termites handling harder terrain any better than other spiders

cinder sphinx
#

Most of the time the recluses can try to get the engagement on flatter terrain where the rockets won't hit terrain as much, also why are you moving the recluses towards the termites even when the termites are already in range

#

The actual weakness of recluse in all terrain fights is the lack of radar cover due to terrain

dire cypress
#

Let's not redo the termites vs recluses discussion.
Termites got pimped in the Balance Pack for a reason.

golden lily
thick inlet
dire cypress
#

I understand where you are coming from.
The thing is: core doesn't need yet another micromanagement monster.
Building mines is APM intensive.
And balancing a potentially high DPS, high APM unit is a nightmare. A high skill 1v1 can get dominated by a unit like that. In low skill 8v8 lobbies this thing will be next to useless. So how expensive should it be?

patent rune
#

What would be the point of having such a unit?

dire cypress
#

Gremlins are like:
I park them in front of my units. Done.
And they are too cheap... For what they do. Their vision range is too big.

#

Vision...
And killing backline stuff

#

A spy/commando tank

patent rune
#

I just realized that the cortex equivalent to the gremlin is the skuttle emoflathink

thick inlet
patent rune
#

Skuttle does not have stealth?

misty pivot
#

But i think the small hitbox make them hard to hit without pinpointer

clever lava
autumn marsh
#

skuttle can take out a whole base already by itself

#

if it was stealth as well would be way too op

patent rune
#

Gremlin can do that aswell

autumn marsh
#

and even then 1 gremlin gets outrepaired and reclaimed by anyone who has any apm

patent rune
#

Only the com should be revealed by radar while cloaked imo

dire cypress
patent rune
#

Gremlins are scout+ stealth raider. If u wanna bomb frontline with scuttle then u can I guess

autumn marsh
patent rune
#

Hm I guess skuttle should be quite expensive then- it is expensive tho- 400 e-upkeep for cloaked walking

rare orbit
#

it's highly expensive

dire cypress
#

"fun" fact:
Skuttles do less damage to commanders than normal crawling bombs. (1100 vs 1390)

Do I need to mention that it only does a third of the damage to commanders than a Liche does? (3150)

Do I need to mention that a tac nuke of core barely scratches a com (750)

These numbers are just too hilarious. Given the price, the ease of use and the mobility of the different units/buildings.

split storm
#

It's very obvious that whoever used to handle balance did not play CORE.

thick inlet
#

Well.. so as conclusion the Core is severaly missing a stealth cloacked unit in Veh lab. Any other ideas that are better than the minelayer? What if it had just no ability at all, just that it would have a very small "circle of reveal"

patent rune
#

Imagine trying to snipe coms with skuttles xD

charred pewter
#

it's not suppose to be a 1:1 ratio, core has a lot of 'slightly better' almost everything. Arm makes up for it by doing specific things dramatically better. Core has more amphibious play while arm has more stealth/emp. Saying "core is missing x unit, lets give them x unit" isn't how BAR has been, nor should be balanced. The asymmetry is important

#

There are many different directions the balance of the game can go, but imo, one of the few completely wrong ways to look at it is to give each faction a version of the same unit. Though, after saying that, I do think each faction should have a proper answer to specific plays/timings. It should never be a case of "this faction's lab is just better". (looking at you t1 air lab)

#

And so, I'm much more inclined to create larger faction differences while making each unit useful in it's own way, that's what my balance project was about - tho I haven't really had time to work on it for some time

tired tinsel
#

subs a bit too strong on low and high lv play. i'd suggest lowering the torp aoe from 32 to 24 and seriously cruiser needs a better depth charge

thick inlet
# charred pewter it's not suppose to be a 1:1 ratio, core has a lot of 'slightly better' almost e...

Well, you are right actually. I didn't think of that like this. Cor has somewhat better units (almost all of them). Arm has special "stuff" that makes up for it. This is an argument why the T1 bots are all essentially better for Cor. Though while Tick is indeed an advantage, Centurion would have to cost like 200 metal and not 270 to be considered advantage. And the Gremlin - it is true that Cor has some advantages too - like Tremor for which Arm does not have equivalent. 🤔

autumn marsh
thick inlet
#

BTW, regarding that Liche.. It might be that I am not able to play it properly... but I find it soo weak now. I mean that Dragon now with the lower price has so much more value. Perhaps just a nerf against ships would be enough?

charred pewter
ionic sonnet
#

Any thoughts on how this pack should be split up so we can try to have these potentially integrated ? Given it's very large and Unlikely to go in as is

charred pewter
dire cypress
tired tinsel
#

just wierdness that hasn't been standardized
no one using skuttles to kill coms anyways

thick inlet
tired tinsel
#

sea + air and land prolly

dire cypress
dire cypress
thick inlet
dire cypress
charred pewter
split storm
#

Ideally, we'd make the two more different, not less. But right now so much of Cortex is gimped by stupid-high costs.

#

And then we have things like blindly applying the same balance changes to both Armada and Cortex artillery, ignoring that Armada has a very powerful alternate artillery and Cortex does not.

dire cypress
# thick inlet Well it seems to me that Arm is the nerfed one mainly. T3 Cor is buffed, T3 Arm ...

That is why I told Zeteo that his claim was bold.

@charred pewter
Well I read, that you said core units are better most of the time, which is not true.
I am all about differences in the way units work. But I am very aware of APM draining units and which faction has most of them. And I am kind of surprised by all this: ARM is specialized mythology... Raiding units with AA is very much a double role that only arm has. A high range high damage dealer that is decent against spam (starlight) is not as specialized as it is advertised. Do you want to know what is specialized? A Tremor... It can be useful in about 5% of the games. Or Tzars... You build one Tzar per game max, you put all your attention to it. It can be good... But it will get d-guned most likely. If you build this unit in the wrong moment (99% of the play time) it will suck. Because it is specialized.

#

Or a commando...

charred pewter
#

You are looking at it in a "this unit needs a comparison" or "there is no counterpart to this unit". This is exactly a bad way to look at balance when you're trying to make seperate, distinct factions. If they are to be the same, may as well remove 1 of the factions

#

Im on my phone, so, sorry if my response isnt really in full

cerulean skiff
split storm
cerulean skiff
#

I also think that the core issues are often overstated. While the Core T2 veh lab has issues, the rest of the faction is very strong and sees a lot of play across variety of maps and modes. In the games I play I see like a 50-50 Arm/Core split unless there's a massive wind dif

dire cypress
#

And "Core needs to bag for a arm con" is not the solution 😉

thick inlet
dire cypress
#

I am going to bed now. See you.

cerulean skiff
#

Sorry what is the gap in T3 between arm and core? I think the only core T3 that is considered weak are Juggs, no? And mainly because behemonths exist

tired tinsel
#

juggs are weak af, karg good but higher bp cost than titans per metal

dire cypress
#

Starlights, Pulsars and Sharpshooters my dear 😉

cerulean skiff
#

If only the same lab built one of the best counters in the game to those units?

tired tinsel
#

siegebreaker is like starlight but even more all in. and specialized in role

cerulean skiff
#

Kargs are still decent on maps that you can abuse their movedef, but fair point I suppose, because there aren't that many of them

tired tinsel
#

starlight is fragile slow but very strong ranged dps

split storm
#

Yeah, the catapult is the best mobile artillery in the game and wipes the field of lesser units.

thick inlet
tired tinsel
#

starlight u have to use rattlesnake + walls

#

starlight is already a good unit but the insane combination is starlight + 4 lab pawn/tick

#

if the pawn/tick player controls it decently at all it's insane

#

the only counter to pawns is welder/sumo/claw/jag

cerulean skiff
#

Starlight timing can be rough on narrow lanes sure, but if you can commit into them you just win, they can't run

tired tinsel
#

? you need overwhelming force or a flank

cerulean skiff
#

But it's hard to know the timing for sure.

tired tinsel
#

at similiar strength there is nothing besides static+wall that beats starlight pawn
just try it

cerulean skiff
#

I have to fight it a lot, I'm aware

tired tinsel
#

no t3 unit does it either

#

kcorp was theorizing that a well microed tremor could be useful
since it can damage the starlights and spam at the same time

cerulean skiff
#

Cata's play fine into it imo

thick inlet
#

But the point here is if Cor should get the Siegebreaker, which essentially "style-wise" is in Arm territory

tired tinsel
#

well the timing is obviously faster than cata's

cerulean skiff
#

True, but I thought we were talking about T3, sorry

tired tinsel
#

it's like saying that "flak anti fighter" is arm

#

well catapult is just the direct counter

#

if they are pushing through catapult won't save you

cerulean skiff
#

Really depends on how you deal with spam, but yeah

tired tinsel
#

spam is not a true answer to starlight

cerulean skiff
#

No I mean how you deal with the spam that's in front of the starlights

tired tinsel
#

beacuse the starlight strength is that it kills your anti-spam units (oneshots jags at any range), but the starlight player can keep 2-4 jags
yeah

cerulean skiff
#

I'd much rather give core something else, like a T2 Veh Scout, or give printers the ability to Rez, etc. Over the core starlight

#

I also worry that core buffs would make them super overbearing on non wind maps

thick inlet
cerulean skiff
#

Things like buffing Shivas is concerning, because they already see a ton of play and are generally considered balanced by high OS players

thick inlet
charred pewter
#

Some of this is very much dipping into rotato balance vs glitter/si ect. The game itsrlf is quite different on those maps, and I can understand the differing opinions based on that

cerulean skiff
#

I mean, I like that distinction, I think it makes it interesting. It's why you'll see like 14/16 core on solar maps sometimes

thick inlet
cerulean skiff
charred pewter
#

My question too is how many of those non-rotation people are going to stay with bar once otherthings come out such as shattered sun

thick inlet
#

If we are talking about a single target shooter being a must because it is the basis, I would say no faction should have an inherent benefit economy-wise on any kind of map. Otherwise the map will just disctate the factions

cerulean skiff
thick inlet
cerulean skiff
#

If you look at factions in BPL most top players swapped between factions depending on the map

#

There are some exceptions like Contra/Unbivator, but for the finals as an example - Teddy and Chisato played Core and Arm interchangeably

tired tinsel
#

arm really sucks on solar map due to a solar

rare orbit
#

core veh completely does lack vision and it's a big issue, also long range hitscan

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

need to recognize the immense difference between slow projectiles and laser

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

shiva is like that, it has great stats in compensation

rare orbit
rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

the only reason why it's closer to sniper is 10 sec cd

rare orbit
rare orbit
rare orbit
rare orbit
#

starlight on other hand is relatively mobile, weirdly fast firing, and shoots over bodyguards happily

vestal thistle
rare orbit
#

I am going to break it down more yes, it's a large project now

vestal thistle
#

Main problem is that it's a big balance pack and ur not gonna convince people into testing so many changes at once because the entire game changes and it becomes harder to compare to original game and give their opinion on balance

rare orbit
#

even 'randoms' in game know about me and the balance pack at this point though, very surprising if lobsters don't
then again one didn't know what a screamer was the other day so, who knows any more

vestal thistle
#

They know you for your work here yes, they don't know you as a player

rare orbit
rare orbit
vestal thistle
#

Doesn't matter, ur packs have too many changes and if a person doesn't like even 1/100 change they'll probably !vote n

rare orbit
#

that's the problem with mob mentality yes

vestal thistle
#

That's a problem with ur testing strategy

rare orbit
#

even people who like most changes in the pack do that sometimes, because it breaks their favourite exploit

vestal thistle
#

Ur changing too many things and at that point what is there to compare with when u test it

rare orbit
#

IMO it's more a human nature issue, only way around it is force testing. I don't want to chop it into little bits that lobsters can quibble over for decades, whole point is it's a holistic fix, although some can be segmented

#

breaking it down risks other problems
but I am going to try that later yes, even so

tired tinsel
#

t3 balance adjustments, land adjustments, sea/air balance?

#

t3 is rare so i guess can just be included in land
-Land balance pack
-niche units buff experiment pack
-sea/air rebalance pack

rare orbit
#

misc & QoL facet too

#

problem is some fixes overlap
or offset changes in other scoped areas

tired tinsel
#

underutilized units buff experiment pack
-gunslinger, termite, centurion, commando, etc

rare orbit
#

centurion can only be properly fixed in base game unfortunately

tired tinsel
#

wym?

rare orbit
#

it needed a model scripting change iirc

#

it's one of the few standalone possibilities though, so doesn't have to be pack related

tired tinsel
#

is it buggy?

rare orbit
#

it's too slow

tired tinsel
#

performance wise?

rare orbit
#

it's an anti swarm that can't pivot to catch swarms
needs to be a bit more razorbackish

tired tinsel
#

range is too short, a bit too fragile for it's slowness

vestal thistle
#

Legit just buff E cost and it's much more usable in pair with rocketbots

#

It's a t1 anti swarm unit it doesn't need to have rotation of a razorback

#

T1 amphib tanks have unreal dogshit turret rotation speed to a point 1 pawn can circle around it without getting hit

rare orbit
#

I said ish :P

#

amphibs tanks are intentionally broken that way

#

not great balancing IMO, makes it both unfun and apm locked but that's the precedent

tired tinsel
#

45 speed is okay i guess needs like 10-20 more range, or 8% more hp

#

you just have to play perfectly to use the unit

rare orbit
#

tbh main issue at this point is it can still miss ticks too much

vestal thistle
#

T1 amphib tanks having low turret rotation speed is how they're balanced

#

If they have good rotation speed then u have to Nerf hp/dps, at which point they get worse vs llts in base

rare orbit
#

but if you know to help the tanks aim, and preturn them, you gain unit efficiency. that's trivia tax and apm tax, not balance

#

there's a point where skill expresson becomes elitism

tired tinsel
#

no one preturning amphib tank turrets
against ticks

rare orbit
#

well ticks counter everything
and that's a whole other issue

tired tinsel
#

i think preturning turrets for some units is accetable, like thor, destroyer, stuff that is big and impactful
even like mauser

vestal thistle
#

My whole body is currently wanting me to type 2 words:
Skill Issue

rare orbit
#

telling 95% of players to 'git gud' is not game design

#

you're missing the wood for the trees as you're in the bracket where you can click like a loon if you want to

tired tinsel
#

the liche only not diving when you set target is not really skill it's just a knowledge check

rare orbit
vestal thistle
#

95% of the playerbase who doesn't care abt gitting don't need to channel their opinion into trying to balance the game anyways

rare orbit
#

they still want the game to be fun, not having their units derping around and feeling bad to use, as they're DPS balanced assuming they're being nannied

#

some skill window is absolutely fine, and good for the game

tired tinsel
#

which t1 amphib tanks are we talking about btw?

vestal thistle
rare orbit
#

BAR has a really weird love hate relationship with ease of play and QoL

rare orbit
#

was an alternative to handling nerfs, to limit the free multi lane flip potential

vestal thistle
#

What isn't experimental here

tired tinsel
#

it's just a bad change it was fixed

#

unlike some air rework screamer which still has 25 sec cooldown no stockpile like wtf
do you even play the game?

rare orbit
#

main problem was I was tuning the liche while mostly on holiday so I couldn't get to it fast enough, it was meant to be rapid itterative tests that were delayed too long

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

but w/e, if you nitpik bad changes it's a waste of time and not helping the balance development

vestal thistle
#

I mean ur just making all this obsolete by combining it into a balance pack anyways instead of having it individually tested in the base game

tired tinsel
vestal thistle
#

Bcz most of the rotato players still have ATG/Straits as top 1 played maps

tired tinsel
#

well even if you play rotato 66% of the time straits will still be 25% or w/e

vestal thistle
#

It doesn't matter if rotato players are more core or more giga chad Sigma male. They play more maps hence not having bias to balance the game around 1 map

tired tinsel
#

okay sure

#

liche is like very insane against sea (1 shot destroyers, t2 aa ships), on land its hard to say. the unit value swings wildly depending on whether you have air dominance

#

if you have air control even for 1 minute (say your air player got a lead or you have 2v1 or 1v0 air for a moment) it's insano

#

i wont' say it's metal effecient but it builds relatively fast and flies fast

#

if you don't have air control it's very sketch and risky
it's also better on metal poor maps where plp are unlikely to have the metal to just make aa everywhere while doing their duties.

rare orbit
#

@midnight tusk hello

vestal thistle
rare orbit
#

partly map design issue too, I can see why starcraft went the route of all maps being the same map

tired tinsel
#

in the long term t1 boats prolly gotta get rebalanced so that crossings can actually be relevant

rare orbit
#

bar has issues with sea and 'land things in/near sea' yes

#

a problem for another day though

charred pewter
# dire cypress That is why I told Zeteo that his claim was bold. <@301911367588249600> Well ...

On paper, per cost, core does have better units tho, or better versions of the same unit in a lot of cases. As an example, core has a better solar, adv solar, tide, basic geo, adv geo, basic fusion and arguably adv fusion. Arm only really pulls ahead in wind technology.

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that wind isn't a powerful plus in most situations and that it shouldn't change, but that if core wind was equivalent to arm wind, everything else should then be equivalent and at a certain point, there's less reason to even have 2 distinct factions. In this case, core is better in almost every way, but arm has a very powerful 1 unit advantage in this case.

This is what I meant by Arm makes up for it by doing specific things dramatically better. I wasn't trying to imply that arm is more "specialized" in that their units are vastly more niche, or that core doesn't have their own niche units.

The whole point of what I was trying to say is, each unit should not have a direct counter part that plays the same. Each race should be unique and have some clearly defined, faction specific differences. My point is that the 2 main factions are too similar, and I'd absolutely hate for the game to turn into "it doesn't matter what race you pick, they're basically the same"

charred pewter
# rare orbit yes and no, labs should have rough ability parity

I'd argue parity of usefulness and ability to counteract another lab, but I strongly disagree in an overall sense. I.E I'm fine with the idea that arm has a centurion and tick but core does not. Core should be able to have a proper answer and something unique of their own, but should not have a centurion and tick of their own.

rare orbit
#

agreed yes, but some roles, eg vision, hitscan damage, have to have counterparts

#

core tick is bad design, but say arm tick, centurion being core could be good asym though

#

ideally shouldn't be same unit / same way, eg siegebreaker specifically is designed not to be starlight, although superficially it does look it yes

charred pewter
#

truth is, they are very different maps compared to most maps, and it draws a large crowd that want that sort of gameplay, and that makes it nearly impossible to address both sides of the aisle. On one hand, you have 2 maps that are very much porc and tech, and on the other, a large variety of maps that have some of that, but are more aggressive maps that favor faster apm and game sense.

You have a couple maps where t3 is every game and your trying to throw them down a narrow while a whole slew of players try to stop them. On the other, you have t3 that can easily push down a single lane because everyone else is busy with their own lane, or it's too far away to engage before it's too late.

The maps themselves make the balance EXTREMELY different.

#

This brings me to my final point. How much of the player base is going to go play things like shattered sun? Is there going to be a higher percentage of players from 1 aisle than the other? And if so, it seems silly to over commit balancing in favor of either side of the aisle.

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

it's not mutually exclusive. there are units that are fairly op on spceific maps. like jags on flats

misty pivot
#

Sheldons are the only thing keeping core alive rn in 8v8

thick inlet
#

I am still missing a unit with AOE in Cor T2 bot lab to be honest - something like the Fatboy. Perhaps the Fatboy could be actually given to Cor as Arm has Gunslinger for anti T1 there

thick inlet
#

Anyways, looking at the discussion here - I think Hornets approach is actually perhaps good - while it is true that there are many changes at once, the idea I think is that we cannot be looking always at changes of individual units, but holistically. Cor T3 needed improvement, arm needed some improvements and I think one cannot be done without the other. I have to say to me the game seems much more ballanced now, including the Siegebreaker (I hope Cor also gets the Deadeye). Shiva I believe is really well ballanced now in the pack, tha same Karg with the price slighly reduced. I think those changes are ready for testing - let's make it an "experimental checkbox"

rare orbit
#

(to paraphrase the core problems into a nutshell)

#

there are very much faction distinctions, but they're heavily bent in some cases, ignored in others, and most of the exceptions are on the arm side of the coin rather than core. game design document sets out to in theory lay those boundaries down, but currently the game doesn't meet them in many areas

#

later game core econ is a bit better yes, but the units you can build with it are mostly worse value for metal

thick inlet
#

@rare orbit Could you make the overcharged mode the default? It really is what will be used mostly unless attacked by spam imo..

rare orbit
#

there was a reason it couldn't be done at the time, but I will try to now yes

barren salmon
#

sheldons are good but prone to get rushed, if you have a lot of ground to give you can just retreat and get infinite value, but you dont allways have space to retreat

#

i would give fiends just as much credit as the sheldon, they are incredible early on

cerulean skiff
# misty pivot Sheldons are the only thing keeping core alive rn in 8v8

Oddly enough I feel that the only thing holding back Core in 8v8 is excessive wind on 90% of maps, and the T2 Veh lab. With the exception of Termites, Commandos and Manticores, the rest of the core T2 bot lab is arguably the best lab for a lot of lanes. Core T1 air, sea, and bots are all very strong on the majority of maps.

charred pewter
# rare orbit also to go back to this, paper lies. DPS stats don't show that it can't see to s...

I fail to see how that's specific to core. Your right in that DPS is not really the thing to look at, nor am I. I'm more or less talking about how a good number of core units are stronger in a way that often times lets them take an extra hit while only being a very slightly more expensive.

I should probably point out I'm mainly talking about T1, which is much much more important in lane maps and non-8v8 situations. Often times having a slightly stronger unit makes it easier to control more space, and thus have more mex and an easier time winning the game.

I think you are mostly talking about later game, and in that arena, I do agree to some extent, but I just hope any changes/additions are distinct enough from arm units

charred pewter
charred pewter
tired tinsel
#

simulating lasers missing ticks
pepeyep

barren salmon
#

what difference is there really between hitscan and a projectile that flies so fast that even 300fps wouldnt be enough to simulate the flight between shooting and hitting the target

charred pewter
barren salmon
#

but not with direct line of sight? i think they only do that with inacurate radar without pinpointers

charred pewter
#

when sharpshooters shoot at something in radar (without pinpointers) chances of missing is very high, but I'm talking about with LOS (and no pinpointers) they can still miss smaller targets, especially if they're faster

#

like any other weapon, obstacles can get in their way, causing the shot to not connect

misty pivot
#

Yes hounds are better at kiting but imo sheldon coubter them and snipers

#

They seem like an infinite value unit only spybots and lucky negotiaror shots beat them

#

Also fiends giving no reclaim makes them no risk units

charred pewter
#

Maybe my main issue is with calling it a hitscan. With that aside, I don't disagree that some of those units are quite strong, but I do disagree with the solution being "give core the same ability".

I.E, I don't think the solution is "give core a long range laser that does massive damage", that's too 1:1. Instead I'd say that is their trade off, that maybe those arm units need a nerf, and instead propose providing core with an easier means to dealing with them in a distinctly way.

tired tinsel
#

yes

#

when the long range dps units are too strong bulls, skirmishers and heavy tanks diversity suffers

rare orbit
# charred pewter Maybe my main issue is with calling it a hitscan. With that aside, I don't disag...

the problem is that non hitscan weapons are basically hard countered by ticks/spam, to some extent even hitscans are with long reloads. there also has to be a equal APM answer to monolith units, eg rushed T3, that isn't 'hope someone already had snipers or starlights'

by hitscan I mean almost instant damage, eg laser.

re termites, they just need light buffs to a couple of stats and are then decent units in their niche, as pack has done

rare orbit
# charred pewter I fail to see how that's specific to core. Your right in that DPS is not really ...

I mostly mean later game yes, and yes I do actively want to distinguish as much as possible, but some things are so fundamental that they will look somewhat similar even if set up differently. eg siegebreaker being thought of as a starlight, when it's much closer to a sniper really, and it -is- worse than both, with greater tradeoffs, completely deliberately
that said ideally sniper and starlight should both be nerfed a bit, starlight reload especially, then siegebreaker will be free to be less potent

random forum
rare orbit
#

52 (+7) speed, range 450(+110), damage 350(+85). speed and the laser dropoff makes the actual damage boost a shot usually more like +40, but they're less kitable with the range behind it

#

they're in an odd place to balance as arm counterpart has two spiders, and both are weirdly competent at ground level still

#

the damage boost may be a little too high, it's not been clear from testing yet, as people only build them on maps that really favour spiders anyway

#

the other way to go might have been making them cheaper, or remove their corpses, but much less than either and they were more often than not just cross country metal donation systems, that were killed long before reaching a target, let alone killing anything there

random forum
#

I agree i think they need more range, maybe not 110 but some range would be fair, it's very rare you find a good time to make them be really useful like recluse can be and once you have committed with them it's usually metal you are giving away 😦
No corpses is interesting idea, maybe give them same timer as Fiends so we can remove wreck easily but still need to micro a little bit.

rare orbit
#

the range was insanely low before, and on some maps where they are useful, say ascendancy, recluses were too good against them on rough terrain
they have low vision (380) so can't actually use that range without spotting / a spread of other supporting termites

#

which means more metal down the pan, and core have no webber to make the raid free or even profitable

rare orbit
#

@teal scarab , this is the thread

hardy phoenix
#

It definitely hurts when you're fighting recluse across hills and their magical rockets hug the terrain over cliffs while you need to have an unobstructed path to shoot back even disregarding vision/range.

charred pewter
rare orbit
#

sumos are better

#

note that recluses not shabby on flat ground either

rare orbit
#

the range -sounds- OP but actually means they're much better when supported

#

as they only have effectively +40 range without support

#

and as said, they have to get value to not just be cross country metal donation systems

patent rune
#

Buff sightdistance pls

rare orbit
#

making them benefit from support is good game design

#

would have to reduce range a lot more for that

patent rune
#

termite is solo unit- recluse has emp spider support

rare orbit
#

scout planes exist

charred pewter
rare orbit
#

it also means they're better in groups, support each other more

#

as said it's a lesser tested change, they still don't feature much even so, unless it's a specific spider map

charred pewter
#

with those changes, they would be featured more in non-spider maps
your putting the dps pretty close to a mammoth

rare orbit
#

you'd think, but in reality not seemingly so

#

I'm not hard set on them aside from speed being essential to buff, range and damage could swap for vision and less reclaim left

charred pewter
#

331 > 437. Mammoth has ~500 dps. sumo has 343

#

yeah, I mean I'm mostly just letting you know, ofc I don't expect it to be a finished product

rare orbit
#

they do less max range and take E to fire, contrast to recluse that gets long range shots for free

#

I don't want them OP, just actually likely to get value

#

atm even with these changes they're not built much, in lobbies used to the pack

#

webbers also tidy up after recluse raids resulting in minimal M left

charred pewter
#

one of the key issues with balance testing is getting people to actually test the differences. Very easy for people to just play the game, and not build something because they're not used to building it. Especially when it's a specialized unit

rare orbit
#

lab balance parity not remotely met by stock game termites, and I was hoping to avoid having to nullify the metal left as that's a bit too close to recluse/webber

#

the idea of the termite is that it's a cross country brawler rather than the recluse's guerilla warfare focus essentially

#

but as the hound/consul meta showed us, recluses weirdly powerful on ground level too

charred pewter
#

imo, just making them cheaper/faster is a better way to go

1) it makes them a bit more termite like to want to have more of a group of them. One of the biggest turn offs is the cost - doing a specialized raid that may or may not work with an expensive unit is fairly prohibitive, even if they are in a good spot (which can lead to overbalancing because 'no one is using them, must be bad').

2) Expensive means fewer of them, and the fewer there is, the more "all or nothing" the tactic becomes, making balancing it more of a knife's edge, making them feel either very underwhelming or very overwhelming

3) Easier for something to get through and deal damage, but defender can feel better about at least destroying some of them.

rare orbit
#

if they're much cheaper they need to have a smaller model though
for current cost / unit focus they should beat recluses in fights, esp considering webbers exist to tip scales

#

as they were, recluses were able to out brawl them surprisingly well

#

in theory I agree they should be cheaper and more disposable yes

#

alternatively remaining expensive but being competent and not leaving metal behind, also viable options

random forum
#

recluse are very good, they have more dps than hounds, building 2-4 recluse as first units is still meta imo
they kill all t1 bot units much faster than hounds and completely destroy pawn/grunt all in, i don't think you can have termites compare to recluse.
Maybe they could have little HP regen like the gunslinger but much less so you can harrass instead of wanting to all in and hope for eco damage

rare orbit
#

recluses are very overtuned considering they're meant to be hit and run raiders

tired tinsel
#

whether something can kite coms is a huge difference in independence. and no t1 com trans helps non-fast raiders a ton
as long as termites are tanky enough i think self d to deny reclaim is okay

rare orbit
#

termite were terrible vs coms before, especially if com was atop cliff, dguns hug the ground
often they'd never even see what killed them

charred pewter
#

it shouldn't be that surprising that a long ranged faster unit can out brawl slower units, especially in a vacuum, where there are no fighting constraints. (ie, can't back up too much or base is in trouble)

tired tinsel
#

yeh

#

as a unit that walks a lot termite having like 52 speed seems reasonable

rare orbit
#

realistic situations and comps matter a lot

charred pewter
#

well, what I'm trying to say is, by trying to keep recluse within these bounds, in order to get what you want, they have to be overtuned, and it's going to feel broken af when a good player gets their hands on it

tired tinsel
#

can be a budget sumo if needed, making a unit too slow makes the force projection ass

#

to get what you want... as in? make it more commonly used?
recluse is like t2 rocket bot. rocket bot is like t1 recluse xD

#

a lot of dmg but dodgeable*

charred pewter
tired tinsel
#

yeh it's a massive change

rare orbit
#

range matters less than you assume as they're pretty blind

tired tinsel
#

termite should be capable as a solo unit but it can be used as support vs spam

rare orbit
#

and dps buff is halved at max range

tired tinsel
#

well then give them like 480 los

rare orbit
#

tbh ticks still counter them if rallied into them before they can climb a cliff

charred pewter
#

so pair soemthing that sees with it >>
I'm not even talking about the AT part of it

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

well what can you bring with it AT
besides making air lab

charred pewter
#

like I said, I'm not talking about the AT part. I'm saying I'd rather have it than a sumo on flat ground

tired tinsel
#

+110 range is huge, not just for dmg but for what it can attack without diving in

#

salamander doesn't do that much dmg at max range but the range allows it to kite coms effectively

#

mm yeah

#

much more range than a sumo, a lot more speed than a sumo, less dmg and hp than a sumo but still formidable
doesn't get kited by mediums

#

and has range to kill coms

#

recluse being 340 range but faster (~52) seems fine

charred pewter
#

I did think about dropping LOS and increasing range in my own testing too, but how does that actually affect the game? What you say is true in their AT capabilities, but bringing the range up to 450 (from 340) is a MASSIVE step up from a sumo at 275 range. Then adapting their damage to be closer to a mammoth's than a sumo's? That's very extreme, and I have a hard time seeing why I wouldn't just use a termite over a sumo in every situation then

tired tinsel
#

can sort of kite coms but not that easily due to it's model size

#

yes range and speed are crazy huge changes. esp laser unit range

#

make recluse have nearly the firepower of an assault unit, but not quite the tankiness

#

sumos actually do a lot more dmg per cost than mammoth
it's just arguably not useful dmg since the range is short

charred pewter
tired tinsel
#

which part?

charred pewter
#

even at full range, mammoth deals 151 damage (which is 50%). sumos deal 137 damage at full range. Mammoths also attack faster, so it's even more dps difference.

tired tinsel
#

a mammoth also costs like 4x more

#

PER COST

charred pewter
#

I did miss the per cost part

tired tinsel
#

a mammoth is reasonable against a thor in head up battle but for stopping a thor or marauders running by its not good
cause not enough dps

charred pewter
#

I'm not sure why the discussion has turned to mammoths

tired tinsel
#

just saying that mammoths don't exactly do more damage than sumos. while they do dmg it's not very high for its cost (all in hp and range)

patent rune
#

Dont make Termites into all terrain sumos imo- make gun weaker but buff speed and sight so its able to shoot consistently- currently suffers same issue as pounder (-powerful but doesnt get to shoot at enemies enough)

tired tinsel
#

so like all terrain salamanders with the speed of a centurion?
seems reasonable

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

it kinda feels bad tho it's a solo unit but it can't shoot it's full range. like the turtle afaik
nothing except an air scout can show the way

patent rune
#

u dont use scout planes for unit vision btw

charred pewter
rare orbit
rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

give it the tools to spot for itself and speed walk to places in time. to differentiate it from salamander and fast raiders you can keep it only moderate speed and give it acceptably good hp to tank light defence and only neccesary range

#

it should be able to retreat and try other attack routes
but not so fast like a salamander

rare orbit
#

problem is it's intended to be a brawler that can cross terrain, it's not a raider in the way a sala is or a guerilla fighter in the way a recluse is

#

the unit role is in a weird place

tired tinsel
#

yeah why tank dmg when you can just outrange hte static

rare orbit
#

it being less blind is a good buff, but would come at cost of less range

rare orbit
#

adds a huge amount to basically any comp when you do

tired tinsel
#

340->450 range for a laser is huge

rare orbit
#

it can't use it when raiding though

#

I really want to see termites in a ground comp though, see how viable they are

#

would guess not very due to lower firing point, and wide hitbox, would block dps density heavily
but having something that has tactical options might be nice

tired tinsel
#

i think they are fine vs pure spam and some t1 tanks, but not tanky enough for mainline use

patent rune
#

If u wanna use scout planes you have to ask for one and park it on the ground basically

rare orbit
#

a T1 airlab dip isn't much investment

tired tinsel
#

it just feels bad

rare orbit
#

even if you can't buy scouts for some reason

tired tinsel
#

my spider is blind i need to baby sit 1 air scout that dies to random aa
buying air scouts repeatedly for menial tasks like giving range is painful
air scout is for scouting strats, location of units and spotting for arty

patent rune
#

I mean it doesnt rly matter if termites cant catch up with the recluses anyway

rare orbit
#

would agree yes, they are outliers in that they're unsupported types that can't see, nor provide any AA for themselves
even webbers can shoot up

tired tinsel
#

termites should be fast enough to dodge recluse shots and run away but its fine if recluses beat termites

#

yeh giving termite ability to laser shoot up is fine

#

imagine commando has 400 sight range
"just build an air scout" otherwise you can't see

patent rune
#

All unit compositions should have vision support capacity imo- ex. vehicle labs have whistler

tired tinsel
#

even if a unit can see it's firing range an air scout obviously has a lot of use

#

scouting where the weak points are, where coms are, whether you should even BUILD that unit

#

making units feel bad without an air scout is not neccesarily good design
not all support needs to be combat buffing

patent rune
#

Chronopolize tweak package when? 🙃

tired tinsel
#

maybe xD

#

i would just change fewer units. the hard part is testing the numbers and convincing plp to test it

marble talon
rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

should an all terrain assault unit thats kind of expensive be a critical mass unit?

rare orbit
#

it was a way to preserve some of the original unit decisions too

#

but as I've said I don't agree with an unsupported unit role being blind

#

it's possible that was an errant value to begin with, who knows

rare orbit
#

otherwise they have little to differentiate a raid with them from recluses

#

which as said are surprisingly good brawlers

#

I can trial a juggle of stats to favour vision more though, and see how it plays

#

note that more range than vision is not remotely unique, parrows have the same

#

also remember that recluse has range of 600, with sight 440

tired tinsel
#

parrow you can bring other units with it
recluse well it's a rocketbot (longer range skirmisher) so it makes sense
380 sight is pretty low

rare orbit
#

I'll test something different next pack edition and see if it improves things

autumn marsh
rare orbit
#

lasers have a sort of linear aoe when blindfired, but it's vastly less yes

#

I still think the self supporting pack mechanic is notable, but in interests of making the unit more generally competent will move some range buff back to vision for next test pack

violet geyser
charred pewter
violet geyser
patent rune
#

I mean they would be 700 if increased cost from 600 lol

tired tinsel
#

bulls have 494 sight, tigers 462 sight

dire cypress
# rare orbit I still think the self supporting pack mechanic is notable, but in interests of ...

This can be especially important since Termites may finally shoot earlier than recluses. The current situation is:
A recluse spots a termite. All recluses fire, turn around and wait to reload. Repeat.
Another thing to note: all weapons do basically double their DPS when couted from the first shot until the second shot is done. That means the recluses with their high alpha damage can soften up the termites before they shoot very well.

rare orbit
#

for guerilla units that makes a kind of sense though

dire cypress
#

But isn't it funny how huge the pushback is when you try to make the termites as good as recluses?

rare orbit
#

recluses still have more range and LoS than termites, despite costing less, and having a support unit

dire cypress
#

Recluses OP, nerf a bit, too pls

rare orbit
#

yeah, it's tiring. even with pack buff termites lose to sumos despite costing more

#

I do agree termites should be less blind though, it is odd they're that short sighted to begin with. maybe idea is to reward rescouting? but again it's not a thing arm worries about in some way

dire cypress
#

Kiting sumos with the current pack termites and Grunts will be easy

rare orbit
#

it should be, sumos are walls

tired tinsel
#

Plp say welders and sumo counter marauders/Salas

#

I laugh. Unless it is a narrow choke you can just kite them / go around

#

If you need to defend then make pop-ups instead

rare orbit
#

they -block- them at most

tired tinsel
#

yeah they do but they are incredibly expensive for the area they cover

quasi depot
#

even on a low wind map they'll open Armada

#

Cortex becomes a bit niche, maybe thugs for the lip on Koom (but even that is not a given)

#

one thing that I feel is underused is the armed mexes, do people consider them bad or ?

#

maybe too long to build compared to normal mex + LLT ?

clever lava
#

I think Jaguars should be amphibious. Then both sides have 3 amp tanks. Arm lightning. Core . Heat ray. Perfect

rare orbit
#

that removes some of the asym that makes it interesting

tired tinsel
#

Jag is too good to be amphib

thick inlet
#

To be Honest I think it would be better to make Poison Arrow not amphib and a lot faster. Cor would need a unit to counter bulls better

tired tinsel
#

the tzar with porc or tigers in front is already good vs bulls. or banishers

random forum
#

Imagine jags on t1 lab being amphi
Salamander little worse but not by very much

ionic sonnet
patent rune
#

There already is platypus lol

tired tinsel
#

its basically a t2 marauder at that point with it's speed

#

difference is jags can kill tons of spam sent to kill it
plats can kill ticks but not that good against pawns

thick inlet
dire cypress
#

A big part is the turret turn speed, a standard core tax.

#

Imagine it had an AA gun for no reason and a fast turning turret... It would be an arm unit, then.

dire cypress
prisma bane
tired tinsel
#

jag on land dumpsters spam
can kite it perfectly

tardy hearth
# dire cypress A big part is the turret turn speed, a standard core tax.

Ya, poison arrow's turn speed seems faster than its turret turn speed, lol. I don't know if it truly is, but the turret definitely moves too slow for parrow to effectively smirkish. It's normal turn speed is crazy fast, though, I think the same as a salamander, like as fast or faster than a stout.

#

If it had decent turret speed, it would be a fairly competent unit for the price. A great Banisher escort, being about the same speed.

#

As it stands, it's still a better unit than Turtle, though.

I'd give Turtle a bit more HP and some light torpedoes

random forum
thick inlet
#

@rare orbit one thing missing in the balance pack is the Sprinter buff - I think the idea was to make it cheaper. It is still the plan?

clever lava
cerulean skiff
# quasi depot yes but nowadays people consider Armada rocket bots to be better, so often open ...

This isn't how I see it play out in higher OS lobbies.

Map energy values and T2 lab choices normally dictate faction for balanced maps. Core/Arm mix is generally balanced for these, this Sulphur Springs game is an example (https://bar-rts.com/replays/addc7d665491e6a411e082f588f8d634).

It only skews one way or the other when maps have imbalanced features. Solar maps like Moonrise (https://bar-rts.com/replays/96c48166070d00e92aa751bc1541ebc6) or Darkside (https://bar-rts.com/replays/16d884665d977b6a6607ebf98015af1d) have primarily core line-ups. Wind maps like Hotlips (https://bar-rts.com/replays/78398866a5b46ef79d584961e5fbae86) commonly have ARM line-ups. Flat vehicle maps also see arm, because you want to abuse Arm T2 veh on something like Starwatcher (https://bar-rts.com/replays/d92d88665a58ec95b5548199f7a141fd), but you can see the reverse on maps where people like Core T2 bots.

All this to say, I don't think the T1 faction differences are a big issue. It's more rocketbots in general, along with the garbage that is core T2 veh.

vestal thistle
#

Core t2 veh application is just tzar rush n support with salamanders

#

Banishers n tremor unreal unit design

#

I wonder when redesign bcz it's unbuffable trash

quasi depot
#

imagine Tremors with 2 firing modes, the current ballistic one, and a more direct one like the actual Calamity.

thick inlet
violet geyser
quasi depot
#

more like the mini ragnarok in the extra unit pack

tardy hearth
quasi depot
#

yeah it needs tweaking obviously, I'm just bouncing ideas

golden lily
rare orbit
#

no deployment mechanics, unless it's mostly visual & automatic

#

would also be a functional nerf to the unit

civic sky
#

wouldnt it just make sense to reduce its move speed once it starts direct firing?

dire cypress
#

A simple solution:

  1. reduce the fire arc
  2. give it a bit more HP
  3. give it direct fire with a bit less range
  4. accept that this will be a bit like a lot of Quakers
marble talon
#

What is a tremor if not 10 wolverine in a trenchcoat

pallid sigil
# clever lava I think Jaguars should be amphibious. Then both sides have 3 amp tanks. Arm ligh...

ewogICAgYXJtbGF0bms9IHsKICAgICAgICBtb3ZlbWVudGNsYXNzID0gIkhPVkVSNSIsCiAgICAgICAgbWF4c2xvcGUgPSAzNiwKICAgICAgICBjYXRlZ29yeSA9ICJUQU5LIE1PQklMRSBXRUFQT04gQUxMIE5PVFNISVAgTk9UQUlSIE5PVFNVQiBTVVJGQUNFIFBISUIgRU1QQUJMRSIsCiAgICAgICAgbWF4d2F0ZXJkZXB0aCA9IDEwMCwKICAgICAgICB1c2VwaWVjZWNvbGxpc2lvbnZvbHVtZXMgPSAwLAogICAgICAgIGNvbGxpc2lvbnZvbHVtZXNjYWxlcyA9ICIxMjAgMjYgMTIwIiwKICAgIH0KfQ
here is a tweakdeff for that if you want it

#

delivered to you at @cerulean skiff request

#

it does what you asked

image.png
cerulean skiff
sonic nest
#

Damn volshok really asked for a dev precious time just to make a guy wish come true. You are such a great person!

cerulean skiff
dire cypress
random forum
#

that's how you balance salamander, very nice

vestal thistle
#

Should give banshees emp damage aswell, will balance them too

vestal thistle
#

Tremors r unbalancable might aswell just remove them for a new unit 👍

dire cypress
#

Astounding conclusions...

rare orbit
#

but means the attack has to be a shotgun rather than peashooter

woeful depot
#

Can we double fire rate of gunslingers and improve projectile speed by 50-60% ? And give them +3 speed ( maintaining initial dps )

rare orbit
#

there was an idea to give them 6 shot bursts in each hand, which kind of worked, but made them a little too frontloaded

#

if your concern is spam the pack versions are competent against them

woeful depot
#

Gunslinger design of unit in TA was 100% a masacre dealer while in range

rare orbit
#

exp gain can be tuned without altering projectiles further

tired tinsel
#

needs to be a bit tankier

rare orbit
#

have you played pack version?

dire cypress
#

I saw this video in which Bloodir Raghna and co. talked about some balance issues.

I loved the solution for rez bots:
Let rez bots pay the metal gap between the wrecks and the units, too.

#🎞️｜bar-videos message

#

A tweak will not do it, but a mod could...

misty pivot
#

Lol u mean in order to rez u have to pay metal?

#

Also is there a problen to need a solution with rez bots?

patent rune
#

The suggested transport solutiong is so sad

rare orbit
#

nerfing rezbot BP would be damn nice

misty pivot
#

Lol no

#

U do that and bots insta die, only thing keeping the lab viable

rare orbit
#

bot mobility keeps them viable, and economic advantage, and scouting, and reclaim, and repair, and free cross lab units

#

you basically have to open bot in most games atm it seems

misty pivot
#

Better nerf rocket than to do this

rare orbit
#

that too tbh

#

I didn't say how much of a nerf though, rezbots costing more might be fine too

tired tinsel
#

Rez bots absurdly broken

#

Making them pay 40%... hm

#

40%m and 50% e makes it kinda cost and risky

ionic sonnet
#

Rez bots are honestly not an issue in my mind compared to almost anything else. They are easily available to both factions. Idk...maybe balance different later.

tired tinsel
#

they force you to botlab as soon as practical no matter ur opener at high lv

#

or have 1 person pump out rez for team. cause rez on frontline is busted

#

makes hover opening sussy cause you just rez

#

hovercraft lab takes a lot of bp to create and tear down

tired tinsel
#

if I can conserve metal while still being present on the map I can make more winds and nanos, w/e

#

or just have more force

ionic sonnet
#

Well, listened to the whole thing. I don't really thing the rez mechanic needs to be addressed rn compared to wider issues even with the points brought up. As one of them said, most people don't even think about it. I liked the other stuff they talked about ie commie/ air etc was a good listen but doesn't belong in ths
Is thread. Specific gap from that balance discussion was definitely salamanders.

misty pivot
patent rune
#

Just reclaiming metal is already powerful, but I dont mind the suggestion

tired tinsel
#

the rez sub is like 100x worse than the rez bot and it's still a good unit go figure.

misty pivot
#

Its good because less reclaim in sea

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

yes but rez bot has the speed to avoid enemies

#

sub is pretty valuable yeh, but it costs twice the bp cost to make (6200)

ionic sonnet
#

Rez bots are also extremely squishy

tired tinsel
#

yeah i'm not saying buff rez sub

#

rez bot are squishy but they are very fast so they don't have problems standing near the action

thick inlet
#

Rez bots is something that both (all three resp.) have. If there are any changes to it, I would suggest making it separately, not in the balance pack.

On that note, the Banshee is now very viable I think. There is one big problem though. Looking at Banshee and Shuri now, it is quite clear that Shuriken should be in Arm arsenal while Banshee fits more Cor. I understand the argument that "Cor needs something to stop run by". Well what to do with that? If we want to differentiate the faction really, then Shuri and Banshee should be switched what do you guys think?

autumn marsh
#

i personally dont see a problem with rez bots they are expensive and require some micro to not just die. Banshee will forever remain a niche com sniping unit in 1v1 and shuriken will be op by design

thick inlet
misty pivot
dire cypress
#

Rez bots are a snowball mechanism as well.

#

But they shouldn't be part of this balance pack, I think.

rare orbit
#

it's kind of a separate issue, and I can't keep adding polarising things into the pack

#

makes it much more likely someone will reject it based on the 1% that bothers them personally rather than the 99% that they like

tired tinsel
tired tinsel
marble talon
tired tinsel
#

well arm has stilleto/abudctor, sort of webber
both side have spybot

#

shruiken just OP af

#

better at shutting down defence then t1 light arty technically

autumn marsh
misty pivot
tired tinsel
#

Yes you can mess up and int the rez bots. But that's 100% your mistake

#

78 speed, it's not like it is a slow unit where it is easy to get caught

#

Randomly, I tried 3 salamander charging into 3 welder, Sala won

#

And welder is more expensive E (tho less bp)

#

Arm bot lab has the best econ features tho ig (cheapest t2 con, butlers, arm winds)

rare orbit
#

all else being equal, veh should beat bots

#

also, unrelated but might as well put it somewhere for now, this is the rocketbot physics tweak I've been testing. would appreciate more feedback, especially in 'OP' games where it's the only bloody thing built

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

vestal thistle
rare orbit
#

bots have mobility advantage, also somewhat better economics

#

so in straight fights edge should go to veh, whereas bots can in theory be where veh cannot

vestal thistle
#

Bots have mobility advantage for the trade off of veh being faster and tankier

rare orbit
#

indeed, but result of that is as I say, all else equal, bots on average weaker units

vestal thistle
#

Stardom literally monospamming stouts and winning.

rare orbit
rare orbit
vestal thistle
#

I disagree bcz rezbots + plasma bots just win any afk brawl

prisma bane
vestal thistle
#

Repeat + Area repair / Repeat Line Patrol

#

Anyways to consider how bots perform for balancing u always factor in rezbots

prisma bane
#

i would have assumed ressing would be needed for thugs to win it, but I'll admit I've never seen that exact scenario play out

vestal thistle
#

U also have to factor in how commander+units perform instead of just the units

#

And commander + thugs perform better than commander + medium tanks in a straight fight

prisma bane
#

i believe statswise medium tanks are the most repairable units in the game
there may be other factors swaying thie engagement though

civic sky
rare orbit
#

makes them fire in a low arc, meaning they don't have a line of fire in front of them

#

therefore you can rush them with other units

dire cypress
#

As long as this still means they hit dragon teeth, this would be a nerv.

violet geyser
#

yes its a nerf and thats probably the intention. so you can use tanks to melee them without dying halfway

dire cypress
#

To make things clear:
I wanted to ask if the rockets still hit dragon teeth in front of other bots and some defensive structures.

rare orbit
#

depends on terrain height, but they're better at shooting over walls yes

dire cypress
#

Well that is something you don't really want, I guess...

It's all a thing of getting the right balance.

But then again:
If rockets have an arc like plasma, what is the difference to plasma then?
I am asking because I want to understand your thoughts.

rare orbit
#

they have a high arc, which makes them more like dumbfire rockets, less like missiles. lets them arc over obstacles somewhat, more advantage from hills - but the main point is that you can simply bumrush them

#

it puts them back to support and specialist role, rather than general anything

civic sky
#

so basically bot artillery?

dreamy lava
vestal thistle
#

Thugs vs stouts isn't as plain as their stats alone, it barely matters if one is stronger than other in an isolated fight.
Thugs perform better against commander and utilize repairs much better than stouts bcz how the micro for each of the units r

#

Stouts are often in a ball doing circles to concentrate their dps against a bot-line, this makes them almost impossible to repair while dealing dmg

#

With thugs u just set a repeat repair command and zone out enemy commander from ever being able to repair

prisma bane
#

If its an afk brawl, which is what was originally being talked about, then the tanks wouldn't be driving in a circle, and the thugs wouldn't be microed either, meaning that stats are the only thing that matter.

Also, would it even be necessary to do so? Stouts have considerably better stats, could they not just stand there? I'm pretty sure that a line of stouts would beat a line of thugs with comm repair if they afk fight command into each other.

I do agree that with good micro, thug/resbot has an advantage in that fight. Which is why Janus are as they are, to give vehicles an effective counter.

random forum
#

dps on plasma is not even real, people micro to dodge as many shots as possible, the most important is for the shots to connect to the targets and kill unit so they can't be repaired

vestal thistle
#

What u gonna repair stouts with early? Commander isn't fast enough repair and ull lose ground even if u dodge as much as u can

clever lava
# pallid sigil it does what you asked

HAHAHA. If the tracks and wheels kinda hinged out and it submersed.... ... Hahaha how was my statement of "Jags should be amphibious" misinterpreted so badly.

I know theres a designer/client meme in here somewhere

clever lava
#

Then we don't have to reinvent the fking universe trying to figure out how to make the banshee not OP while also not being shit at stopping raids.... Also i thought maybe make shurikens (this i feel would be a must for both factions but even implemented for core could offer a balance in where raiding against a core player becomes more successful....but i think both factions would benefit from this) more expensive and tanky.. So instead of ten on the field you would have say 3. Still i think a paralizer drone does have a strong argument for a being an ubiquitous unit.

misty pivot
#

I dont think banhee can become op if air is contested, like even with hornet pack i would still prefer shuri to banshee given the cost gap. Also killing the diversity between factions is not what i would like to see since its already limited

#

Lets just give banshee its shotgun so it can deal with something other than mexes and comanders and hope arm air becomes more viable given they also get cheaper wind

clever lava
#

do u know how many commanders I will kill when the banshee gets its shotgun...lots

misty pivot
#

Not if air is contested

#

And u can do this already. Each banshee could be 2 figs for your opp

rare orbit
#

@torpid jackal

rare orbit
#

@crimson sentinel

#

see pins, I need to do a new summary & breakdown, but need to finalise torpedo bomber stuff first

clever lava
rare orbit
#

@vernal merlin

tired tinsel
#

i tried a sumo drop and it wasn't that much dmg.... sumos don't have that much more dps than cost per salamanders. their short range (270 vs 360) makes their laser damage fall off more
0.30 sumo vs 0.25 salamander

#

stout is 0.32 but it's shots can miss

#

just really high dps combined with speed lets it choose it's range. long enough range to kite coms and the speed to shotgun when desired

ionic sonnet
#

Tried rocket bot arc change. Definitely think it's more in the spirit of what it's supposed to be instead of vanilla.

junior lodge
#

imo, its a bad change due to how its made, those new bots simply do nothing. Either give them some sort of splash damage or make rockets track their targets at least a bit near the end.

currently, they almost never hit anything. Panda made like 15 rockets bots vs me yesterday and he did grand total of 320 damage with them, simply because my tanks moved around or were in radar range and thus safe from falling rockets

ionic sonnet
rare orbit
junior lodge
#

i guess shall see how it works in practice

rare orbit
#

rocket bots should be support units for removing statics, which they're very good at now

junior lodge
#

it changed the unit completely indeed, maybe more games are necessary so that players adapt

rare orbit
#

yup, that's why I always prefer sustained feedback from people used to changes, rather than initial/kneejerk feedback

#

people are stuck in habits without realising it and it takes a while for them to adjust

tired tinsel
#

They probably need more range if it's like that

tardy hearth
#

How does bots deal with janus without direct fire rocketbots ?

#

Seems like rocketbots really the only thing keeping janus in check t1

random forum
#

turning rocket bot into bad arty is really not a good idea

ionic sonnet
thick inlet
#

Is there any reason the Scorpion is more expensive than pit bull? If I put them 1v1 they die both meaning their direct fight ability is pretty much the same, but pit bull is invisible giving it much more surviveability.

Overall, Core though supposingly more sturdy faction where one would expect the pork units would be more efficient actually seem to have much worse static defences. Take Pulsar vs Bullwark - Bullwark could have the same range on the main gun (1400) and it would still be worse as the dps at that range would be way lower, only when a unit gets closer to like 700 ( not sure there) the dps is higher but these defences are build pretty much in T3 era, so the dos in the longer range is what matters

ionic sonnet
tame hill
#

scorpion doesn't miss moving targets nearly as much

autumn marsh
#

Comparing static def vs static def is beyond useless. Core static def has more hp generally and more damage per shot, which does matter in some situations but not very significantly. Pulsar is better vs t3, bulkwark better vs mass units but will also do ok vs t3.

tired tinsel
cerulean skiff
#

Also faster projectile with tracking, iirc.

torpid jackal
#

I think I also saw some pass through damage? Not sure.

dire cypress
#

Short answer:
Look how often you see a unit and you will know how OP the unit is.
And I rarely see Bulwarks.

Scorpions have a small AOE, pit bulls are gauss so they never have AOE even if the stats tell you otherwise (engine). That makes Scorpions slightly better against groups (and small, fast targets that change directions in the slightest, like a small bump in the ground), but it doesn't matter too much. Both pop ups are decent. Both are built frequently.
I have never seen a cloaked pit bull in a real game so that is quite irrelevant.

thick inlet
dreamy lava
thick inlet
past pasture
#

why tf are you putting porc against each other 1v1

dreamy lava
autumn marsh
#

no porc is self sufficient period. even dragon claws die to t1 arti.

thick inlet
violet geyser
junior lodge
#

btw

#

speaking of weird stuff, what do you think about adding submerge mode to the sea torpedo lauchers?

when submerged, cant attack, but its underwater

autumn marsh
junior lodge
#

it uses air pressure to launch the torpedoes, doesnt work if entire thing is under water 👍

eternal wraith
autumn marsh
autumn marsh
#

the new torp bomber t2 acting as a gunship is pretty bad, the only reason for going torp bombers was to avoid aa, the t1 sea aa range got buffed and torp range reduced, now for 400 metal u get a unit that is close quarter gunship that cannot engage if theres sufficient t1 aa, they are also much slower so way harder to micro away from incoming figs, became just absolue waste of metal

patent rune
#

Where can u see the range change?- Range should be 800 and hardstop the torpedo imo

autumn marsh
#

idk where the detailed changes are if anywhere, the range looks smaller on the unit and its much exagerated due to it being a gunship now rather than a bomber.

split storm
autumn marsh
split storm
autumn marsh
#

?

rare orbit
#

it may well need more tuning but I need to see it in real engagements first

ionic sonnet
#

Ya the commitment of them and lack of range is not great. You basically cannot use them without air superiority but you cannot have it.

rare orbit
#

more speed makes sense to add, range is pretty high already, comparatively

#

too much range also makes the cliff problem worse

dire cypress
# autumn marsh ?

I might overlook something but it feels like the first of these rules were skipped

  1. learn how abusive a unit can be microed
  2. talk about balance
autumn marsh
#

i had arm torp bombers bug out, they shoot the torps and the torps just stay in the water without moving

dire cypress
#

Kk, that is a different topic which version?

Regarding the vanilla torp Bombers: you are aware that T2 anti air ships loose to well microed Bombers with the same cost, right?

ionic sonnet
#

ya very aware. Torpedo planes are also irrelevant when firing over land :/ and they need vision to be effective. The main case sea players have is how effective they are in open sea battles, and conveniently forget how free it is to play sea after it is won

autumn marsh
# dire cypress Kk, that is a different topic which version? Regarding the vanilla torp Bombers...

the balance patch version, i was using arm t2 torp bombers today and they failed to hit a commander while it was reclaiming, the torpedoes just landed into water and failed to go anywhere, but when commander cloacked the torps did go past the radar dot. And yes, I am very well aware about torp bomber interaction with t2 aa ship, you need a very open sea and you surely can kill it with micro and perseverance. And yet I still dont think its a problem beyond the fact its a 2v1 at that point. To land the torps you need vision and since the jammer ship so cheap and large radius, you pretty much always need vision at the point of torp hitting the ship, which is not always easy to maintain so its not as straigthforward. Lastly we are talking about 2v1 afterall, its a way for air to interact with the

dire cypress
#

Still normal flak trucks have an easier time against normal Bombers. For me this feels way better than the torp Bombers.

tired tinsel
#

well torp bombers are usually specialist unit, only good in one location

#

typically they don't threaten afus or eco or land armies which is usually the majority of the game

autumn marsh
#

the torp bomber speed becomes an issue coz of poor handling, to stay out of range you gotta turn after release of torps but then ur speed drops to a crawl and takes some time to accelerate, hence super easy to snipe with figs

split storm
#

And if a sea player could build fighters out of their naval lab, then we wouldn't have a problem. But that would be juno-tier stupid design.

hardy phoenix
patent rune
#

I would buff the range on the single target weapon of the t2 naval AA unit, t2 should counter t1

eternal wraith
#

Another idea is to add t2 single target AA naval turret building

#

There's only birdshot

#

A longer range one to manual target torpedo bombers

#

Similar to mercury but lower range

autumn marsh
# split storm And if a sea player could build fighters out of their naval lab, then we wouldn'...

theres an air player for that, you seem to assume its 2v1, both sides got an air player and its unlikely so dominated by one side that the other air player will not contest ur torp bombers. 410 metal early on is a lot, and with the current balance patch handling of the torp bomber its just not viable to build one. You dont wanna keep your figs over the fleet if theres aa there, and if you dont then couple t2 figs will just snipe the torp bomber coz its so clunky and cant get away even if you see the figs coming 5-7 sec out

patent rune
#

Sounds like the torpedo bomber is really bad now lol, maybe change should be reverted

cold needle
#

My 2 cents: land-based AA is good enough that you don't strictly need an air player to defend against bombing runs (both static flak and mobile flak). You need to invest enough metal into AA, and that does hurt your strength against incoming land attacks, but its doable.

Why shouldn't sea-based AA be as good at defending against torpedo bombers, as land-based AA is against regular bombers? Why is it not desirable for sea players to have a viable counterplay to well-microed torp combers, but it is desirable for land players to have a similar counterplay?

rare orbit
#

not sure it's in the right place yet, but it's definitely a balance improvement

prisma bane
#

is there a reason they can just have their range reduced? thats the only egregious part of them

rare orbit
#

that would be a flat nerf and still make them bad at handling terrain, and not solve the overkill

#

this makes them strictly better at removing boats, wasting fewer firing cycles on same targets

#

I did try retargetting but it's very hard to make that work properly in water

#

and even when done, you can't really see much difference in most cases unfortunately

violet geyser
#

rework them entirely. Get rid of the stupid useless braindead torpedos that move weird and quite often crash into a beach or shallows and instead make it drop DEPTH CHARGES.

rare orbit
#

that makes them vastly more commital, but it is an option yes

hardy phoenix
#

It would be neat to see the torp bomber changed to a small spread of depth charges as it would really differentiate it from the torp gunships.

I'd at least be curious to see how it played out in testing

autumn marsh
#

im not sure what overkill you talking about? we are not talking about using 20 of them at once, noone does that early on and when they do the overkill really doesnt matter. The handling in water around terrain is less of an issue than the shit handling it has now as you can pick a side from where to engage and still have it manouverable. The problem now is that when you tell them to turn back they basically stop in place and it takes them good 3-4 sec to even start accelerating to their speed, which makes them sitting ducks. If you make them like gunships at least make them as agile so you can pull back. I would say either just keep them vanilla with -10% range -20% damage or smth similar or if you want them like gunships then slash the cost by 30%, you can reduce damage to compensate for that but 400 metal for something you still need massive air coverage that you cant retreat and save is not worth the investment when you can spend less on the gunships and do just as well if not better plus be able to use them somewhere else afterwards

violet geyser
# autumn marsh im not sure what overkill you talking about? we are not talking about using 20 o...

im not sure about the specific context but the OLD (aka base variant) torpedo bombers had HUGE issues with overkill. Maybe not if you used 2 or 3 of them but any higher amount would regulary, even in the hands of good players), cause huge overkill. Occasionally more than 50 % of the torpedoes would scatter useless. They do 1.5k damage per volley and it absolutely did cause a ton of wasted damage in many circumstances. I havent played with the reworked once but i have seen them and im pretty confidant in saying that overkill is less of an issue. The question basically then is how "important" of an issue is overkill to you.

clever lava
#

Those torpedo bombers that hover look like the mechanic makes sense. But they just get sliced by AA when trying to evade or maneveuver after a single drop. Also watching those rocket bots missed everything that moved practically. So they just become a static line shooting at stationary targets. Even though fighting rocket lines is hard i like the mechanic of trying to dodge the rockets. Dunno. I can see pros and cons in both of it. But essentially removing that use case from the rocket bots just opens up a spot for a unit that should fire like that. I dunno. I still want bar to be TA's successor. I'd rather the addition of new units instead of changing old ones.

rare orbit
#

I only change units when there's a very viable reason. rocket bots are monocomps that do too much too well, and it isn't 'skill expression' or good for the game when every front, no matter if it's veh terrain or not, is shoulder to shoulder conga lines of rocket bots dancing about

#

torp bombers I am fully open to other ideas and alterations for, but it is very worth noting that the unit role was so unbalancable that it was flat out removed from ZK

#

it might be worth making them a little faster and/or better handling with the current experiment, indeed

clever lava
#

i agree with you on all of that

clever lava
#

Komorants are cool. They used to chill in my pool when i was growing up. cool birds

rare orbit
#

agreed in some way, but then you have the problem of overkill, and torpedos hitting land too far away

#

making the bomber range too short is problematic as it rapidly gets into jank territory iirc, it has so much 'free bonus' range that when you narrow the real range stat down, it has trouble targetting

dire cypress
#

Dunno if it helps, but could custom gravity be a thing? A torpedo that drops faster could change stuff, for better or worse.

rare orbit
#

might impact behaviour in shallows, but potentially would reduce the free bonus range yes

clever lava
#

dumb ass torpedo bombers wiped out three bases cos they dropped their shit like idiots. So yeah i understand

autumn marsh
autumn marsh
# violet geyser im not sure about the specific context but the OLD (aka base variant) torpedo bo...

they are 400 metal each, if you playing an even matched air game you cant afford to make more. Its basically a choice between doing a bombing run where you could maybe kill a player in single bombing or you make 3-5 torps depending what you killing and SLOWLY grind away at sea. Any competent air player can send 2-3 t2 figs and snipe the torps as they come around. Sea is not supposed to counter both air and opponent sea easily, its 2v1 so he needs to have help. If the sea is won, most sea players will be able to counter any air in their sea anyway. And speaking of overkill, land tachyon units do more overkill than the torps do but we dont see that as a problem do we.. Just cause you make 10 torp bombers when you need 3 to kill a t1 destroyer does not mean the unit has overkill issues, just as with bombers, you can make 100 to kill 1 afus or you can make 5, its up to you really.

tired tinsel
#

honestly they are the king of the open seas, but you can try and take cover behind naval walls or islands and stuff. IMO they could use less alpha and -50 range and/or reduce the missile max flight time by like 1-2 sec. Part of the issue is t2 navy is overpriced, cruisers too slow, battleships too low hp/too fast
They are pretty insane at killing battleships... if not for air figs torp gunships/bombers are basically superior than all the navy t1/t2

#

The puffin can still do micro, if you really want you could make the angler a better version of the puffin (factoring in that it can't submerge)

#

it's just t2 cor figs are so cracked that air dies so fast to them, but if you make something remotely capable of function through t2 figs it's utterly broken against ground (either by range or speed)

#

t2 cor figs warping air imo

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

honestly nerf t2 cor fig and wasp/puffinv2 will become usable without needing broken range/speed/alpha

#

if they are more agile then they can hover and retreat to friendly aa ships
like a constant repositioning battle

#

between navy and air on both side

#

just try nighthawk to 500->400 alpha, and 380->350 speed. It being slower at killing aa means that enemy air should have more holes, instead of t2 figs just stonewalling any air action

rare orbit
#

reload is probably more the problem, and also arm figs can get out sooner

tired tinsel
#

what would you rather have, a t2 aa ship, or 4 t2 figs? The latter covers the whole map, protects your whole team, and can be used on offense too. T2 aa ship locked to the sea.

#

who cares about the small stuff, just try a t2 fig nerf and see if it improves the game

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

doesn't matter if you don't have air control

#

i'm not saying nerf just one of them

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

that's bs

#

when I build a seaplane lab and make seaplane gunships they are basically strictly better than t2 sub, faster, more dmg per cost, better sonar

autumn marsh
#

idk in that regard just create t1 long range static sea aa like eradicator to counter the torp bombers, would be most fair. Making them into puffin 2.0 without ability to land in water means they are essentially removed from the game

tired tinsel
#

well they would have be faster and maybe +200 range
fast enough to retreat to play around friendly aa ships

#

puffins can actually beat lone flak ships with very good micro. just pull the weak one back

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

see the issue is that fig are so fast unless you have at least 2 flak ship they will just fly over and snipe your torps and go back

tired tinsel
autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

just like cruiser sucks. 1k metal piece of crap

#

imagine if the pawn had like 150 speed, but you could only use it to kill combat units (no dmg to workers or econ)

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

that's what the figher is now. it's so fast that it stonewalls air plays

autumn marsh
#

in team games yes, not in 1v1

tired tinsel
#

we're talking about team games, no?

autumn marsh
#

but it has to be fast coz the map is so big, you already take a long time to travel across

tired tinsel
#

im not saying slow down the other air units, just the fig lol

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

when's the last time you saw t2 fig in 1v1?

#

the t2 arm fig is dogshit at dogfighting tho, basically loses to t1 figs per cost

#

honestly t2 fig nerf would buff good air players, leave more openings to still get value with air despite not having domaint air control

autumn marsh
#

as a good air player i utilise what i have and still dont have much competition so i dont think it would buff it

#

i would rather have it as fast as it is, air reaction already needs to be rapid and just focusing and not seing for couple seconds can cost the game, so making figs even slower would be bad

tired tinsel
#

ok imagine if the fighter was 500 speed. now reacting is trivial. 2nd player goes air congrats you are unbombable even if you are 10os

autumn marsh
#

reacting would not be trivial

#

u still need to react, the punishment for slow reaction would be lower but i dont see ur point about second player going air

#

even if fig speed is 200 2 air vs 1 makes it hard to bomb the 2 airs

tired tinsel
#

ofc but it makes it easier to bomb their army then retreat, bait them out of position
it gives more room for possibility

autumn marsh
#

so you would make the bombers slower too?

tired tinsel
#

no, i just said figs, hello?

autumn marsh
#

i dont see how that would work

#

coz then figs be similar speed to bombers, whihc means air manouvering would be nonexistant and whoever has more figs wins

tired tinsel
#

there's a lot of room between 250 and 380

autumn marsh
#

there really isnt

#

when you have to circle around the incoming air theres not much room or time to do that

tired tinsel
#

that's the one scenario where you are trying to snipe bombers on a bombing run

autumn marsh
#

thats every scenario where you got less figs and wanna try to defend the bomibng run

tired tinsel
#

anyways my issue with too fast units is that they are too global. on wide open maps their positioning aspect is very small

autumn marsh
#

then ticks are a problem too?

tired tinsel
#

ofc... though for other reason like LOS and units being shit at hitting them

autumn marsh
#

I just dont like nerfing air purely from sea perspective. A won sea can defend air super easy at best air can slow it down but at a great cost. Sea is usually 2-3 times the eco of air at t2 and air has opposite air to fight against so complaining about the torp bombers in general is not justified imo. If I intervene in a sea battle, its coz theres a skill mismatch in there and it doesnt always turn the tide, anyone can go air and counter my intervention if they choose to, its a team game afterall. You are not supposed to be able to counter everything by urself beyond the 1v1 scenario

tired tinsel
#

the eco is purely a product of straight having too many mexes

#

besides mex count, how rich a position is dependent on how forced they are to make units

#

like pond on hellas. yes they have a fair bit of mexes but they constantly have to protect their exposed shipyard + short rush distance so they cannot greed well.

#

geo sea has lot easier time greeding than long beach or geo for this reason too

violet geyser
# autumn marsh I just dont like nerfing air purely from sea perspective. A won sea can defend a...

I think what you miss is that even won sea is easy to disrupt because of multitudes of ways to do so.
As a sea player, you are supposed to be ready for

  • ducks
  • marauder
  • platy's
  • air
  • bombs

While some share characteristics, they don't have the same counter. I.e you don't counter ducks like you counter marauders.

In addition, there is 2 entrances to a sea, so you have 5 things times 2 to potentially take care off.

This is also why good sea players immediately use salamanders. Not just because of momentum, but also because every passing minutes makes it more difficult to hold onto IMO. There is definitely a timing window between "won" and "secured".

#

I can't even count the amount of times where I made torp launchers and shore and see platy's, or make flak ships to find ducks etc. It's very hard and imo impossible to take care of every possibility. It's like rolling a dice.

glass halo
#

Are costal torps buffed in the balance pack, or destroyers nerfed? Because to me it seems on chokey maps it is more efficent to just porc up with costal torps and go t2 because they can outrange destros and outtrade them.

dire cypress
#

We got a ranked rotato lobby running right now. With brightworks.

clever lava
# autumn marsh thats more of a skill issue than a unit issue, just like saying fatboys killed u...

No totally not. They took off and dropped their bombs. Picture the beach on FN. Bombers on the ground spamming. Im doing other shit somewhere else. I had both seas falling so I was trying to get out t3 hovers, gunships, make a t2 ship lab and save left sea from whatever. The torpedo bombers VTOL'd. without me seeing. They had acquired a target. Then because the sub or ressub or something underwater was right next to the coast. The script tells the bomber when to drop at a certain distance. Bombs just hit the sand straight on the beach as it laucnched upwards. Like a bird shitting itself when it flys away. No finesse. Ive actually seen komorants dos this . Lol. Anyways torpedoes hit the beach. Hit the converters. Im looking at the other side of the map having a dog fight with flak and a million aircraft. Boom. I dont hear it. But I do go back and im like "Errr , everythings gone. I only saw what happened in the replay. " but i know im not the only one. Torpedo bombers drop their shit over land all the time. Like muppets. But i imagine that isnt an easy problem to fix. The only skill issue at play there was the fact that I didn't have my torpedo bombers on hold fire. do not engage and be sure to take a lunch break every 30 minutes.

vestal thistle
#

when balancing armada jammer?

clever lava
#

@vestal thistle How would you balance it?

violet geyser
#

Weird question. It's a cloakable jammer. Don't make it cloakable. It's not quantum physics and has been an issue for at the very ! least a year now...

vestal thistle
#

remove cloak tyvm

clever lava
autumn marsh
# violet geyser I think what you miss is that even won sea is easy to disrupt because of multitu...

I dont exactly see your point? If we talking purely isthmus, then any other player going into the sea with heavy investment like platys/ducks/bombs means they are not spending those resources on the frontline/eco. Hence the frontline would suffer as a result of this pivoting. For this reason scouting is strong and I have seen good players counter them all just by building an outpost in the middle of the sea by the geo. A won sea means that its 8v7 for a while, it does not mean that the sea has to do 1v4 right after winning 1v1. It does happen a lot but mostly by the choice of the team rather than by design.

autumn marsh
clever lava
#

im almost certain they would XD

autumn marsh
#

theres another thing to nerf - naval engineers. Absolute nonsense unit, cost like a nano and builds like a nano but mobile... No other mobile bp as good, butler more expensive, cant build units - 140 bp, twitcher more expensive, can build units - 125 bp, consul super expensive, can build units - 150 bp. Naval engineer - 200 bp and only 200 metal 3.3k e....

Also naval engineers building naval mines are too strong, they can literally fight ducks with them as they pretty much insta build them and they explode for 2k damage, put on repeat and u got some dead ducks

clever lava
#

Yes but they need to relative. Cant exactly have a t2 bot with a bp of 70 assisting and maintaing a fleet of battleships

autumn marsh
#

wdym assisting? its basically a builder, give it 120 bp for its cost and ability might mre more than fair

#

but 200 is way too much, you got rez subs for repairs

violet geyser
#

Justa is right naval engineers are very good. Their main downside is they move abysmally slow. I'm not sure they are OP but maybe they need a 25% BP nerf so nanos are still more relevant.

autumn marsh
#

You need to see Kcorp abuse them with mines lol, super annoying, their move speed is fast enough to retreat from a lot of later sea going units so you dont lose your bp even if you make a gantry up front or anything of such

tired tinsel
#

Mines are just op