#Balance Candidates Pack

1 messages · Page 8 of 1

cerulean tartan
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(relax y'all it's just a light-hearted joke, I have no horses in this race)

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cold needle
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Personally, I think Janus feel too squishy with the range nerf. I don't fundamentally dislike forcing a unit to risk its HP when dealing damage, but I also don't think that Janus have enough HP for that playstyle -- and, increasing its HP would work against its current identity.

Adding a modifier when targeting commanders is good; that change seems to have the least collateral while still helping to address the noob-stompiness of the unit. I don't really see a need to reduce the range on top of that, but I haven't done any real review of that change either.

Is the only reservation with adding commander-specific damage modifiers to the pack, that they are tough to get accepted into the base game? I know that was true as a general rule, but I also vaguely recall something about commanders being 'special' in that regard.

elfin frigate
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The Janus changes could be too much Devious, I think some of the other changes are too much. Needs more play from all types of players instead of snarky attacks on people or their arguments.

Seems weird that com-specific damage modifiers would be hard to put in, I'm pretty they have the most amount of special modifiers in the game atm, what's 1 more?

Janus comes up so much as being OP I find it hard to dismiss, if it is indeed OP and the nerfs make it unless maybe suggesting adjustments or a rework of the unit would be more productive than derailing the thread.

autumn marsh
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Janus definitely needs a nerf as it does stomp too hard in lower leagues, in return you can also nerf the damage of rocket bots to make the matchup a bit more even or just nerf hp so janus could 1 shot it if thats the problem.

Dragon is op waste of metal as it is, anyone who says its op just doesnt have air on their team. Saying scouting is not possible in BAR is just untrue, If you got an active good air players they will exchange hits and scout around in the meantime. Rushing 5x 5k metal units before afus? If you lose to that its really on you. You are not meant to counter that in a few seconds only when you see it at your frontline. But again, simple t2 flack + figs will demolish it. T2 figs are op at countering dragons, all you do is target fire them and the all-in push is done, you just need some t2 flack to kill some enemy figs so you dont get bombed afterwards.

With liche I dont know how much you can change, but If its possible to reduce the speed while its loaded to what it is now in the balance tweak and return it to normal once the bomb is released + double the reload time from vanila. Then you would have more time to react once it enters vision/radar but will still be able to get away from t1 figs if microed well.

vestal thistle
autumn marsh
ionic sonnet
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Yup chainsaws fry dragons

quasi depot
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metal for metal do they do better than screamers ?

ionic sonnet
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Screamers are a meme unit that shouldn't be built imho, like dragons or manticores

random forum
lavish goblet
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Idk but that sounds lame and poor design of map to not include air/sea? you missing 1/3 of the game?

random forum
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some lane maps include air from the start, other don't, most rarely see t2 air reliably built, so it's much harder to stop surprise dragon attack coz the best counter is not available on some lane maps, but all good Hornet aware of it and made t2 AA bots good against them

hopefully we can have it as a stand alone tweak since Dragons are already in main game, having a counter would be nice

lavish goblet
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I mean wouldn't we put that down to bad map design? Why should we balance these units around maps that intentionally limit gameplay out of the actual game, where we can't use all of the units? I would expect some things would be imba if there is a map like that

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Assuming both sides are even and one side made 5 dragons, would that also not indicate a misplay of someone not making air as a preventative measure? it could also be like 30or howevermany bombers too which you'd likely die to as well idk

random forum
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it's a newly released unit that still needs a moving ground counter, bombers get wrecked by mobile flak and they don't work against dragon which is interesting gameplay

ionic sonnet
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Dragons are a terrible unit as is. If you die to dragon, it's a diff and that is all. It costs as much as like 15 bombers or something. Bit they're fun so I make them to meme. I do also like change to make the t2 aa bot worth building.

autumn marsh
# random forum some people play maps where you don't have dedicated air player 🙂

i do know that, but in that case rushing 5 dragons is a big investment into air as well, meaning you were either losing hard anyway or just didnt push when you had a chance. You should not be expected to counter something that cost 25k metal and a huge amount of energy and bp immediately just by making cheap units from a lab that you already have.

Also, non dedicated air players are definitely worse than air players who do it all the time. It might take ppl few games on a different map to get used to different conditions for air but most of the knowledge is transferable. Air builds on isthmus are tight coz its played a lot, by definition rotating air players on rotating maps have way less time to perfect the builds not to mention it being harder since you cant just try again straight away, you gotta wait few hours or days to rotate to that map again

random forum
ionic sonnet
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Ya..idk. if u have afus, you have income and BP to make chainsaw right?

random forum
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usually yeah but can't help your friends

lavish goblet
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It seems like a skill issue, or the game was already so far gone it wouldn't really matter

cold needle
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Anyone have a replay of one of those ~5dragon surprises for reference?

random forum
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are you comparing figs cost to dragon? and how many you need to kill a dragon and stuff?

ionic sonnet
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Ya since t2 figs are the best counter. Another way to think about it is a dragon costs as much as a t2 lab and 15 figs.

random forum
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i see

wise epoch
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the time it takes to do that, even with spare resources and BP, is more than enough time for the dragon to wreck 1-2 bases

random forum
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im not sure how that sheet helps, dragons user will have some figs with it, never going naked, at least he has something like 20 figs and a line of reinforcement
he will always have more figs that you can have, unless you predicted the cheese somehow coz it's impossible to scout

wise epoch
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And dragons very easily deal with one-by-one fighters, even when they're not backed up. You have to have 5+ ready to go before trying to attack the dragon

lavish goblet
# wise epoch this may surprise you, but it actually takes some time and resources to go t2 ai...

Wow how surprising that is, thank you so much for this OP info, condescending fuckwit.

It may surprise you that if the enemy has dumped this much time and effort into this and your team has not, that's a failure on their part that deserves to be punished by this.
The sheer amount of time it takes to build up that many dragons is absurd, compared to the amount of time to build up the easiest counter to it.

The sheet is to present information and findings after some testing. It isn't to make or not make a point about it but to present data.

tired tinsel
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going dragons is basically eco going double air

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if you go eco double air and go bombers they could kill like 1 frontliner and 2 backliners all the time and faster

wise epoch
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I am talking about maps that have no backliners

lavish goblet
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No shit Are you following along with the conversation or?

tired tinsel
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if you have no backliners how are you making 4 dragons
🤣

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you know how slow t2 air comes out on all front maps?

wise epoch
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only person talking about 5 dragons is kcorp. I'm talking about 1-2 dragon rushes, just watch zow replays to see how it is done

tired tinsel
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link some replays plox

wise epoch
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can't look through any to see if they have dragon rushes, am away from my pc. He did it in probably 1/4 of all his games for months though

tired tinsel
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what time period and maps?

wise epoch
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ah okay. I've never seen that done on a no backline map, it's always been 1-2 that i've seen

tired tinsel
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i mean bismuth sort of has a backline, rosetta has backline, DSDR has backline

half of the rotation maps have a backline

lavish goblet
tired tinsel
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if the enemy has no dedicated air player and gets stuck with pants down no t2 lab up for a while, and you went double air or eco air then yeah you should win?

wise epoch
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they do, but many of them haven't (or hadn't) built up a meta to resist tactics like that. off the top of my head I remember him doing it on ascendency, nuclear winter, coastlines dry, bismuth, ditched, flats, hades ponds, and salmaikki. Some of those have air positions, some of them have developed an air meta specifically in response to these strats

tired tinsel
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seaplanes, t2 bombers, even t1 bombers will do a ton of dmg

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air superiority is insane on big distributed maps for sure

wise epoch
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but he's banned now so we probably won't see this exploited much, nobody else could really do it like he did

random forum
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chills boys, the counter is already made by having AA t2 bots be effective against them in the pack
it's a nice way to finally make those worthless AA bots usefull without making flak more overpowered

tired tinsel
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do you focus fire the dragon or hit figs with a ST t2 aa bot
prolly the dragon xD

wise epoch
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ya i would love to see that balance change come to the main game, t2 aa bots have been a worthless joke as long as I've played this game, idk why they haven't been buffed yet

tired tinsel
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so t2 lab 3200 metal, dragon 5100 metal, so basically rush a dragon instead of going t3 shiva?
dragon has good BP cost it just costs a fuck ton of metal

random forum
wise epoch
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ye, if the match has been all on land, putting that power into air is gonna be a lot harder to stop

tired tinsel
random forum
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...

wise epoch
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they're not useless but they're not cost effective, and it's really easy for the dragon to just back up and go somewhere else, their range isn't that big

random forum
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i try making flaks trucks spam, it's total shit, t1 bots spam is much better

tired tinsel
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what?

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flak truck moves faster, has more dps per cost,

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flak truck actually s tier god unit. just kite backwards and fan out

lucid nymph
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that does happen, but again, it implies massive skill issue

tired tinsel
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i can see it being hard to defend a 1-2 dragon rush on bot map

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but i doubt the options/micro have been explored

wise epoch
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same is true of any transition, including a normal t2 transition and a t3 transition. I'm not really sure what the confusion is, my only point is that in the right circumstances dragon rushes are strong and difficult to counter. I don't even want anything to be nerfed to address it. I am just saying it's a situationally strong rush unit, much like a tzar or something.

lucid nymph
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raikoh seems to be arguing that it's good and needs a new counter?

random forum
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the number doesn't matter much and the counter is already made, im not arguing

wise epoch
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a buff to t2 aa bots I think? which would be good for reasons besides just dragons, because they're trash units and both t2 bot labs effectively have no AA unit

tired tinsel
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how good does t2 aa bot ST have to be to be decent vs dragon xD. and isn't the t2 aa bot insanely slow so it's hard to cover flanks

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yeah we can all agree t2 ST aa bot is good for game health while distinguishing it from shredder

lavish goblet
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The counter already exists, brain use and figs

wise epoch
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can't send figs with your army into enemy territory where there will be static aa, you need to send ground aa with your attacks

tired tinsel
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i mean the idea is that it's a surprise

lavish goblet
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If only the dragon was an EXTREMELY slow moving unit and has to come to you.

tired tinsel
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  1. how viable is it to scout
  2. if can't be scouted, how crippling is it to one's build to do a safe half blind counter
  3. what micro/tricks can be used against it (kiting backwards, chainsaw / protect flak with t2 walls)
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  1. how fast does it come out compared to ground strats (both sides killing each other)
wise epoch
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plenty of maps have narrow fronts where you will have about 10 seconds between spotting the dragon and it being in your base. That's how maps like pawns retreat or salmaikki are

random forum
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That's funny, Kcorp start finally playing rotato lobbies a little bit and he starts saying everyone else is bad 🙂

lavish goblet
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A narrow front for air?! What is this mythical map type

tired tinsel
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if you have a narrow front then it's easier to defnd against air?

wise epoch
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or I guess you would call them wide fronts

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i mean low distance between the two teams

ionic sonnet
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I'd say it's the right speed just bad dps.

tired tinsel
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if it's a wide and shallow map then ground rush with flak trucks is strong right? and easier to get a scout in

lavish goblet
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So based on the simple test and data I collected, you should be capable of reacting to this on time with figs, unless of course, you are already drastically behind the enemy team, and can't even muster a single t2 air lab

tired tinsel
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it depends, if they have eco player with bp making dragon and figs you can't beat it reactively
not without a joint team reaction ground aa to buy time

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but like the answer to bullshit often is just to push them
if your t2 push is already going by the time dragon arrives you win

random forum
lavish goblet
wise epoch
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yeah probably, but it will depend on the map. Sometimes a lane will stall or the best attack angle will be too porced up, an air transition into dragons while things are unstable can do more than the same cost in ground units

lavish goblet
# random forum do you not know dargon player has figs too?

If they invested into the figs and dragons, it should be EXTREMELY easy to beat them with you just having to make figs. If they also invest in figs after making, they they are already so fucked on the BPC and resources they have spent making the dragons that the player reacting slowly to this should be capable of making enough to counter, unless, again, they are very behind on temp and eco, indicating that one team has already essentially won, and is making big units to end the game

wise epoch
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what are you getting mad about kcorp, we're just talking about the comparative strength of certain attacks lol. Sometimes dragon rush is a wet fart, sometimes its a game ender, requires very good game sense from the person doing it to know when it's going to be good. Which is probably why zow (aka clyret) was the only player who's ever done it consistently in high os games

tired tinsel
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if only one player is doing it consistenltly you think the counterplay is well practiced/developed?

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brewer's advantage

lavish goblet
wise epoch
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by consistently I mean most of the time he did it, it succeeded. Like I mentioned he did it in probably 1/4 of his games (just my estimation, i haven't compiled anything). Since it was in rotation lobbies and happened unreliably, it was difficult to build a many-map meta to specifically counter that strat. If other people did it with the same frequency there definitely would have been a meta response

lavish goblet
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which would also wipe 1-2 players if no one has air?

wise epoch
lavish goblet
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SUDDEN AA on front?

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I crafted a dragon rush build several months ago testing it 50+ games, it is absolutely possible for teams to counter this given even standings by placing AA on time and reacting.

random forum
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I only got killed twice by them and it's really not worth arguing that much xD

lavish goblet
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I'd go so far as to say it would always be more effective to have made bombers and fighters

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because the single digit dragons number is simply not effective enough to eliminate enough players in a short amount of time

tired tinsel
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3 flak truck can handle a dragon. while zoning the fk out of t2 figs

tame hill
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ya know if I had seen [zow] doing dragon rushes I probably coulda guessed it was the same person as clyret, clyret spent 6 months in 2022 just liche rushing everyone to very great effect

and it's funny how everyone can see liche rush is very strong especially on maps with no dedicated backline to the point they've been neutered in this balance pack but dragons? no way

tired tinsel
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ask hornet

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"and it's funny how everyone can see liche rush is very strong especially on maps with no dedicated backline"
na everyone say liche is just fine

tame hill
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liche is a powerful situational unit

like dragon

lavish goblet
tame hill
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so you think liches are actually bad because they're a huge metal investment easily countered by t2 figs?

tired tinsel
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on land only maps? yeah need a geo or good wind or poor metal map
liche's impact in the first 10 seconds is incomprable to a dragon

wise epoch
# lavish goblet I crafted a dragon rush build several months ago testing it 50+ games, it is abs...

this is such a weird reaction, of course it's counterable if you prepare, everything in the game is counterable if you're prepared and develop a meta around it. The point is that it was highly off-meta and was a very risky strat to do (like everyone here has meticulously pointed out, dragon rushing means you're not contributing to the front for a few minutes), so people were typically unprepared. But I feel like I'm talking to a wall so I'll let you continue with your theorycrafting

ionic sonnet
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Nah, liche is good and situational. Dragon is a meme unit for doing memes

lavish goblet
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Are you kidding me

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A few minutes is quite an understatement

tired tinsel
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dragon builds fast if you only have the metal

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basically you have no fus/afus lol so you better do a lot of dmg with the dragon

lavish goblet
wise epoch
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It's not, dragon has a low buildtime for its cost, it's a very fast transition with money. Zow could make the transition in about 3-4 minutes

tired tinsel
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skinner like is THE strat bomber man i would count his opinion for something

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i'm pretty sure dragons are not from the air player (typically have lots of bp but no metal, the same profile needed to make bp hungry figs)

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they're from the eco player or some kind of communism

wise epoch
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ya when he did it on my team i would usually pool t2 with him and feed him metal for the dragon

lucid nymph
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I've seen chisato do it, for example, but I basically never see it work outside of massive skill issue

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or an overwhelming eco advantage

tired tinsel
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like this game, dragons were okay, not very good at killing tanks but they did suprise and give randy 1 reclaim field. but he was way winning beforehand

lucid nymph
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it moves so slowly

tired tinsel
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is it possible to micro a dragon so it doesn't get in dgun range of a com?
while killing the com

wise epoch
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yeah it is, but you have to be really careful with the move commands, and also watch out for height variations in the terrain

lucid nymph
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Also, I don't think Amojini's comparisons to the Liche are fair

wise epoch
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also because of the aoe of fire, you can kill cloaked coms while staying safe from dgun, but the margins are very tight for that

lucid nymph
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People complain about the Liche because it delivers impact very quickly

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I'm not sure I'd even say it's OP, but the main issue is that sea players don't find it fun because they have no personal agency in whether they get bombed by a liche rush or not

tired tinsel
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it has moderate risk if enemy is t2 air but unlike gunships it's not a dead unit even then

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since you have the hit and run factor or suicide it for a big impact

lucid nymph
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Dragons give much more time for response

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And the Liche is almost entirely an issue with the sea interaction specifically because of the high metal cost and density of navies

tired tinsel
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the only oh shit moment is when dragon reach your bp/lab or eco

lucid nymph
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Liche-land interaction is perceived as a none-issue

tired tinsel
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or maybee if they surprise kill your backline squishy units (sheldon/sniper, etc.)

wise epoch
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they do, but the difference is that you need to have a response ready in force. If you build chainsaws 1 by 1, or send figs in 1 by 1, it survives and keeps killing. With liche a couple static aa or a couple figs will get the job done. They're both situationally strong units imo, easily countered by a prepared enemy but powerful surprise attacks in different ways

tired tinsel
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solar maps and metal heavy maps are bad for liche. ground becomes very strong quickly before you can scale e. and arm solar + a solar scaling is oof

lucid nymph
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the liche is legitimately difficult to respond to, because it can dip in and out, so you need to be pre-positioned

tired tinsel
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1 liche trades with a chainsaw unless the liche is leveled and healed

lucid nymph
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why are you sending in fighters in one by one if you can't cope

tame hill
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You can literally kill liche with like 6 t1 aa that's slightly spread out

tired tinsel
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honestly what liche does is it punishes enemy air jerking off and staying t1, or bombing run without crippling enemy air player

tired tinsel
lavish goblet
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Considering a similar case as presented, with no aa prepaired beforehand, the liche, in this case two liche for the same cost roughly, would likely be able to slaughter because it would kill any AA coming up much faster than the dragon can

wise epoch
tired tinsel
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aa units have to kill their current target before retargeting
so figs can draw aggro from nettles

lavish goblet
tired tinsel
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naval nettles have 107 vs 95 dps for a land nettle

wise epoch
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It's reductive, every attack is counterable by a prepared enemy, using that logic every single strategy that succeeds is a skill issue for the other side

lucid nymph
tame hill
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I don't think most of you have ever actually tried to kill a dragon lmao. They're pretty damn tanky

anyway I don't think anyone's arguing dragon is actually op so there's no point in arguing about it. It doesn't actually require much more investment than a liche and has a similar effect and niche as liche rushes, being more effective in some ways and less effective in others

wise epoch
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Like yeah, it's correct. But it's also useless

lavish goblet
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Yes, however the dragon gives significantly more time to do this

tame hill
wise epoch
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amojini stop trying to be reasonable we're physically incapable of letting things go lobster

lavish goblet
tired tinsel
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yes but if you are navy hiding and you get nuke bombered your lane dies anyways. it's a reasonable trade for the air player to win navy lane saccing 1 nuke bomber

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that's the best case too, flying straight through the nettles without targeting them

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real liche player is gonna pick on the edges or just go elsewhere. your opponent can just omega greed because you hella not pushing 6 nettles down and no t2

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on amphib map, ground and navy aa units cannot move freely in all zones, and liche is strong af cause it is very effective at impacting (threatening) every theatre

tame hill
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it's also expensive af and dies to like 700 metal investment distributed over time and space

tired tinsel
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liche player always makes the choice

tame hill
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sure, that's why it's a good unit and not a bad unit

lavish goblet
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IN what world is an air playing flying this into 7 perfectly spaced and prepared nettles on the sea/land. There are value targets even if it does this where it can instantly pay 2-4x it's cost to make in a couple of seconds of being in vision.

lucid nymph
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We're arguing whether the liche is more generally useful and flexible to rush

tired tinsel
tame hill
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The point is liche doesn't need to fly over 6 perfectly spaced nettles to die, it could just fly over 2, then 2, then 2 while looking for/moving to targets.

that's not true for dragon

lavish goblet
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It is extremely so because it's influence can be felt immediately. In the earlier cases where the player has no air/ no static up, this would likely be even worse for that team because of it's speed to remove players from the game, cheaper cost and even more figs following it than if you made a dragon

tired tinsel
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if it flies over 2 then 2 then 2 then it's bombed 3 targets

tame hill
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Not if the space it flew over doesn't have targets

lavish goblet
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are you suggesting scouting targets with the liche itself?

tired tinsel
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aa needs to kill the unit first before retargeting they won't instantly shoot the liche

tame hill
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For liche you need to have proactive scouting and constant air superiority over the entire path and time between every single target

lavish goblet
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No you don't

tired tinsel
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not when you hit the frontline army
290 speed flying janus

tired tinsel
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dragon is only worth discussing if they have no t2 figs or you have air superioty

lavish goblet
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The liche is unique because it's also made with ARM which has at least 30s faster timing for lab on wind maps. The air superiority doesn't yet exist before it can have an impact and completely win a lane

tired tinsel
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you can blind counter a liche build just fine doesn't mean it isn't a crazy unit that can exploit small eco / fig positioning missup

tame hill
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god this is so fucking dumb I'm not even going to bother

lucid nymph
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I know it sounds trivial "oh just do this to counter," but it's really not true of many situations

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eg. the pond communism situation that straits players were complaining about doesn't really have a counter that lets you win, per se

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the best you can do, consensus seemed to be, was stall with assistance

tired tinsel
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it's just a generally optimal move with no major weakness (since it is one of the most important early game swings). anyways not the strait thread

lucid nymph
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and race to copy the strat on the other side

tired tinsel
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flak surrounded by t2 walls, dragon wins with 20% hp
flak with no t2 walls, dragon wins with 80% hp

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if the dragon flies directly over the flak to shoot over the wall, dragon wins with 55% hp

tacit igloo
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Lets remove the Liche

violet geyser
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Let's remove air

cerulean tartan
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Let's remove mobile units from the game

cold needle
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BAR = Build Afus Repeatedly

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With that said, though, let's not let this thread get too off-topic 🙂

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We have a memes channel for that!

clever lava
clever lava
clever lava
# tired tinsel link some replays plox

Hmmm I think there may be an example in the 1v1 played by raghna and rompy on feast. About a week or so ago. Should be easy to find via the replay filters

clever lava
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Also we mustn't forget there may be plans to get the dragon built from gantrys in the future. 🤷

violet geyser
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That also means balance is indefinitely solved

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Minor buff turtle
Minor nerf salamander
Average nerf lich
Minor buff dragon or major rework
Major buff (?) Archangel and equivalent
Minor nerf Janus
Minor buff hauberk

Do eeet

fierce scaffold
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$unit hauberk

slow solsticeBOT
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Unable to find a unit named 'hauberk'

fierce scaffold
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$unit halberd

slow solsticeBOT
violet geyser
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Close dang

fierce scaffold
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why so defensive 😉

elfin frigate
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Man halberds need something, I don't think I've ever seen them used well.

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Pretty much unless vs ships due to low range and speed and on land they get outranged by alot of T1 units that also kite them, and they are dgun food

wet dirge
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1 of this in enemy backline can kill the entire back

ionic sonnet
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Don't they just get dgunned for free by com drop?(which is fine, just asking)

barren salmon
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other hover units are propably more effective but halberd will win most 1v1s on land if they are in your base and have to be killed by a unit you make quickly in your lab

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if they are out on the field they get outmicrod sure but if theyre in your base and you need to kill it quick its pretty effective because it just doesnt wanna die in those situations

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1 halberd at the front to draw fire, 2 mongonel to snipe buildpower lab and llts, maybe an AA hover if there have been shuris on the field

thick inlet
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Just played around a bit with he sea units. Per metal the Cor seems quite a bit better in direct fight. The Despot is so much better than Dreadnaught and for not that much more cost.. The sea would deserve also some balancing no?

violet geyser
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the main complain ppl have is that arm battleship is a bit too squishy compared to core one. The weapons are reasonable, one on hand the lasers can have huge impact, on the other hand 2 dual fire plasma cannons do quite the damage (great visuals also). Then there is skater herring. rest ok more or less.

tired tinsel
thick inlet
tired tinsel
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hornet's patch makes the arm battle ship have like 180 more range?
1050 vs despot 1030 or something
which should be pretty strong but it's still squishy and not accurate

lavish goblet
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yeah not a fan of that unit

image.png
tired tinsel
#

if com / com drop defense wasn't so ez i would think it would have a place on hover maps

lucid nymph
#

I've barely ever played ascendancy though so I find it hard to say

tired tinsel
#

i think it's the supplment to medium hovers to deal with spam attack

#

arm veh and hovers doesn't have an answer to mass spam

lucid nymph
#

it's worth using on some of the super cancer flooded map permutations

#

when hovers are basically the only way to move across the map in continuous fashion

tired tinsel
#

yep there will be maps where hover good if other units are restricted enough

lucid nymph
#

there's no map I actually like playing on where hovers are good

elfin frigate
#

I feel like the speed of regular hover tanks will almost always trump whatever the halbred offers unless it's a really small map

tired tinsel
#

few seeker opening + the utility of the rocket hovers / cons are not bad

#

probably always trasnporting the halberd. then its good

#

13k energy + 75 per shot phew

#

that's the same energy as a fucking starlight 🤣

lucid nymph
#

meh, but if you're air-transing anyway, in most situations you can just drop a land unit

elfin frigate
#

That's a mad cost for such a niche unit, you could probs halve it and it wouldn't be op

tired tinsel
#

they shoudl reduce the e cost of some of the hovers

#

like why does a bird eater have higher e drain then a geothermal? (99)

lavish goblet
#

It's like a really expensive llt, that is only good in a small choke

tired tinsel
#

eh i think it's like a t1 sumo

#

it probably would be too strong with 350 range, just e cost reduction to it and birdeater and maybe com trans speed nerf so it isn't so free to just com drop dgun

barren salmon
#

halberds stats are really good it just needs to cost a bit less E

#

has the potential to cause a lot of damage if it drives up the shore to harass land and goes back to water to get repaired by com

#

the higher HP a unit is the more usage you get out if by repairing it constantly

barren salmon
lavish goblet
#

I just cant, I've literally never seen it used well, and when it dies aggressively it leavess huge wrreck

tired tinsel
#

it needs a specific map for it, being transable helps a lot. the e cost is crippling, but unlike a turtle it comes out of t1 lab and has utility on water

barren salmon
#

from the sheer stats it looks allmost OP,
it is quicker then a sumo
only costs slightly more metal then a sumo
it has more range
it can traverse land and water
only needs t1 lab

it has 1000 less HP then sumo
it costs 4K more energy then sumo

lavish goblet
#

yeah but like all sea units bar the ones you dn't even really make slaughter it

tired tinsel
#

it's only for river and spotty island maps where boats are restricted.

#

sumo is like a support unit for your arty/spybots, or to save your base

#

the fact you need constant aa with it or it will die to com drop dgun

elfin frigate
#

It might shine more in smaller games like 2v2 to 4v4 where there are fewer coms around with channels of water that aren't suitable for boats. Like I said, niche.

lucid nymph
#

give it airdrop

elfin frigate
#

If it needs to be airdropped to be useful then it's kind of bad right? and you need to drop it with aa so it doesn't get shuried or com dropped, and you need some scouts or something to build radar to avoid coms and at all these extra costs and risks you might as well have just gone salamanders

tired tinsel
#

since grunts can't shoot over units, adding 1 halberd to a few medium hover tanks is pretty saucy

#

it can shotgun enemy bases like salamanders for good dps

#

also vs grunt spammas, adding one of these to a vehicle player's army is pretty amazing

#

the fact that transport can pick it off from water is pretty unique

#

assuming you have enemy air zoned out you can pick it up to evade enemy riptides after you trash their base

#

niche but i think it has some use esp if hovers get e cost buff

elfin frigate
vestal thistle
#

didnt everyone already agree that liche being good against sea is just an issue of sea lacking tools, not liche needing nerf as its already hard to accomplish much with liche on land if enemy is slightly aware? why continue the liche discussing if hornet is already working on sea changes

vestal thistle
#

also classic case of energy stall t1 unit

tired tinsel
#

If com was pick up able from sea that would change navy a lot

#

Basically costs a geo thermal in e to build and 96 eps to fire lmao

tired tinsel
#

It's real good on high wind maps if there is slight eco or skill diff on air

#

T1 bombing run can counter it but it's a risky play. If they spread their shit and build aa and you delay your t2 mexes for it, it's easy to fail and be in a worse spot

#

Even more powerful is a player (esp with geo) taking advantage of being slightly winning (ie. Not under pressure) and nuke bomber rushing as the non air player

lapis radish
#

Ships just simply need a heavy flagship-cost AA boat that's just Screamer/Mercury glued onto an existing boat in place of their normal main cannon and it doesn't need to stockpile ammo.
T2 Support Ship for both Arm/Cor are good, remove the Anti-nuke and energy generator, plop the heavy AA on it.
Longbow/Messenger missile ships are another option that practically don't need changes, use the same model just give it Screamer/Mercury attack.

lavish goblet
#

no, the issue is with T1 navy, not t2

lapis radish
#

For fighting back Liche and other t2 air with t1 navy? I might not be following the conversation properly but at that point you need frontal swarm of t1 navy AA screening your main fleet if you aren't going to get t2 ships vs enemy t2 air. Even then you'd need at least twice the cost of attacking air units in your own AA ships to catch most of them if they don't stack up and chain up their deaths, it's so pathetic how bad naval AA is.
Navy suffers greatly from bad naval defense options against submersed, water and air units.
Even t2 constructors can just make defenses equivalent to t1 ships. For AA you get crappy naval version of flak turrets that are just straight up worse than just making a t2 AA ship. Cortex gets the floating discount Bulwark meme that is the Devastator and Armada gets a stationary Ellysaw frigate with Gorgon.

Your only reliable hope is using sea-planes but even that's a losing case of throwing t1.5 at t2.

autumn marsh
#

tbf you are not supposed to earily counter t2 air with t1 ships, the t1 sea aa is more than sufficient vs t1 and t1.5 air.

barren salmon
#

I think what sea needs is an eqivalent to the t1 land AA you can build with regular coms, there is no bomb resistant aa battery or a long range t1 AA for naval

autumn marsh
#

i dont think t1 aa built by a con would do much, since it would cost at lesat 800 metal for long range aa, which would kill a liche yes but it would never be built in time once the liche is spotter as it requries so much bp to do. And it would die insta if you have to fall back from the position as sea is very dynamic

barren salmon
#

if there was a good and easy t1 counter for the best bomber in the game that would be busted

#

its just a possible counter and thats what matters

#

it would be usefull to place them at your own base

lapis radish
#

Armada's Skater is ok since it's stealth and lets you surprise enemies that only use radar for scouting, but other than that navy AA is a deterent not a defense.

arctic finch
#

if i am not completly wrong most of the time its cor that complains that liche is too strong in sea so herring aa should be made to match skater aa range

autumn marsh
marble talon
#

Does Karg have increased BP cost?

arctic finch
marble talon
# 
corkorg = {
    energycost = 550000,
    metalcost = 25000,
    buildtime = 485000,
    selfdestructcountdown = 7,
},

corkarg = {
    energycost = 50000,
    metalcost = 2200,
    buildtime = 425000,
},```
#

why does karg have buildtime of jug? @rare orbit

tired tinsel
#

Internal name of jugg is karg

#

You can't put t1 aa in front your fleet while fighting

#

They will die

cold needle
marble talon
#

we noticed because BP was pulling 1m/s instead of 10. Probably an extra 0, honest mistake

tired tinsel
#

oh actual typo heh

marble talon
#

lol yup

tired tinsel
#

i believe herrings are pretty ineffecient aa

#

cost 1.65x as much as a crossbow with only 1.1x the dps

#

in a fair amount of cases sea cannot get t2 lab as fast cause they have to build it themselves and they are a frontline position who has to put their metal in ships

#

esp on a more open map like hellas or w/e

#

on land your t2 player can help you against enemy t2

#

but navy doesn't have anti-air aid besides a very on point and properly eco'ing air player

barren salmon
#

what i said is just an answer to the "that wouldnt be effective"

ionic sonnet
#

Ya floating chainsaw seems fine, or chainsaw boat, it'd have to be very expensive. In which case I doubt it wojld get built because it would reduce frigate count. Maybe worth /affordable if you are way ahead of the other sea player and need it to fend off enemy air for Last bit of push. People already don't build many herrings for this reason

cold needle
tired tinsel
#

1k metal for mobile chainsaw hmm?

#

Seems quite good but big commitment

cold needle
#

I did say "viable" rather than "good", to be clear 😛

#

I think its at least better than the current options of "die" or "die"

tired tinsel
#

Yeah for sure.

barren salmon
#

yeah thats what i said aswell it might not be a comfortable counter for liche but better then nothing

tired tinsel
#

That's the right idea for the t1 aa ship its not the most cost efficient but its a viable choice esp if you are expecting air

barren salmon
#

and t1 maybe shouldnt have an easy counter to liche

tired tinsel
#

Better than making 5 herrings

ionic sonnet
#

Ya it doesn't make sense to me to make some sort of cheap aa that counters every plane in the game, I think it should be expensive.

autumn marsh
# tired tinsel Better than making 5 herrings

1 ship to take out is much easier than 5 though 😛 chainswab boat wouldnt kill liche before it drops bomb on it so in the end you still -1k (and i assume a lot of e) and liche still alive. I think the best way to deal with liche sea balance is to slow liche down once its loaded so you got more time to split and fire off more shots at it. Im just not sure how much that can be done to begin with. any floating static t1 expensive defence its just not viable to begin with due to bp limitation on open sea and you would never invest in that unless you won the sea anyway. Likewise to have a chainsaw boat that cost 1k metal means u 3-4 frigates behind as it would likely stall ur e building it

tired tinsel
#

manually target the liche so it doesn't waste shot on fighter

#

you could kite backwards with it to make sure it dies.

#

i mean there's games where you make 5+ herrings. just make chainsaw ship instead now

#

it also is good vs anglers since it can actually range on them. just put frigates in front of it to block the angler shots

#

you are stuck in a catch 22 vs a good sea player but that's the nature of 2v1

#

if you feel like you are stronger then you could find a way to spare 1kmetal to have a decent answer to liche (as opposed to your push being full dead)

#

mobile chainsaw is i think a pretty useful ship (tho bad at killing figs/shruiken fast)

cold needle
woeful depot
#

Why ships will have a mobile chainsaw when all other unit types don’t have one

tired tinsel
#

esp since t2 air can collapse your position AFTER you win the sea

cold needle
#

Ships already have a mobile rag when no other unit type has one?

tired tinsel
#

mobile rag
that's a bit generous

cold needle
#

Ships are just different, the different factories don't all need equivalents

tired tinsel
#

navy has no tac launcher, no shield, no chainsaw, no mercury, t2 navy con can't build tracer, nuke

random forum
#

i bet you want to give mobile chainsaw to t1 ship right or t2?

cold needle
#

My idea (which needs testing) is to replace the T2 flak ship with a T1 chainsaw ship, essentially

#

Mostly because asking for a whole new model is... unlikely... to happen in the near term

random forum
#

you still need flak tho for all the other air units no?

cold needle
#

Ahh, but there's a flak turret that can be built on sea if needed. Not as nice to have as the flak ship, definitely, but I think having the extra versatility in T1 AA is worth the slight reduction in versatility for T2 AA.

I do admit that I'm not a good sea player myself, though, so I'm open to feedback for the sea-loving people

tired tinsel
#

but then sea has no flak ship

#

t1 aa ship has to be a bit in effecient making a lack of a t2 flak ship kinda bad
also in late game maps not having a flak ship option sucks against mass air

autumn marsh
#

All im saying is that t1 sea should not be able to counter t2 air alone

cold needle
#

I don't think anyone is proposing that T1 sea should counter T2 air. The goal is to allow T1 sea to throw metal at the problem; we don't need sea to be able to trade profitably T1 vs T2, but if they are willing to invest 2x or 3x as much metal as the opposing air player, they should at least be able to hold back their T2. Same as for any land player.

tired tinsel
#

yeah so some weaker mobile chainsaw

#

that isn't exactly effecient but allows sea player to not just roll over and die when t2 air comes out

#

was thinking like 180-200 dps bit less than chainsaw range, 400-450 metal. small enough dps in singles that air player could pull back their weak aircraft and repair

#

speed about 50-55, not particularly fast

#

hmm maybe it has to be more expensive and 1k metal aa ship

#

probably has to be, to justify having range that can hit torp bombers and liches
and make the single target weakness more pronounced

#

the fact that it is a 1k metal investment means there should be holes where gunships can try and hit

#

that way you can't just spread a bunch of 400metal mini chainsaws and call it a day vs seaplanes

#

and as a slower ship it's vunerable to getting sniped

cold needle
#

I could see that, but I think there's value in testing with fewer simultaneous changes first. I want to see if we can get you against Blxssom one of these days to do some initial testing

autumn marsh
# cold needle I don't think anyone is proposing that T1 sea should counter T2 air. The goal is...

then leave nothing unchanged coz thats how it goes now. Liche 2.2k metal, we are talking here about it being countered by single ship chainsaw that would at most cost 1k metal. Thats already less than half the investment.. atm the liche rush vs sea is a pure air skill issue, its very easy to counter with t2 figs, even with t1 figs if need be. Clearly u both need t2 lab and figs cost way less than liche so by defaul you would have the figs to shoot it down if the skill is similar

cold needle
#

That doesn't match what I've observed so far in the vanilla game, and the liche still traded favorably during my breakpoint testing even with multiple Chainsaw ships.

But, I'd be happy to review a replay or two showing a sea player who is able to (even inefficiently) kill a liche while on T1, if you provide them?

lucid nymph
#

I don't know if that would be OP or UP per se, more that it would have larger implications for the flow of the game beyond the liche interaction.

#

I'd rather suggest that this t1 naval option be added without removing the t2 flak option, to avoid unintended effects.

tired tinsel
#

it's not like the map is a narrow tube

cold needle
tired tinsel
#

with a bit of ground aa you can easily nuke the front army and fallback to friend aa vs t1 figs

#

only cause nighthawks are insane bonkers unit they fly so fast and deadly they can chase through most aa without giving a shit

#

with t1 figs there's only like 8 speed difference if you aren't literally on top of the army defending it hard to catch the liche

vestal thistle
#

Also strait has crazy wind, these mfks make fusion and still opponent air can't figure out a way to counter liche

lucid nymph
#

ye

tired tinsel
#

fusion is better than wind in some cases
because wind takes ton of bp

lucid nymph
#

I've said before I don't even think the liche is op per se, I think it just puts players too much at the mercy of friendly air making mistakes and is therefore not fun

vestal thistle
#

The amount of time I've comm dropped the geo tech spot because enemy air was making t2 mexes and fusion while I was spamming figs on wind is crazy

lucid nymph
#

real

vestal thistle
#

It's like they have 5 figs early and u have no idea how to exploit it

tired tinsel
#

if it's just that the geo player should react and make nettle or sam 1 shot the trans
t1 fig com drop pretty good tho

lucid nymph
#

at least that you can do something about yeah if air is eepy

#

I've fucked up as air and gotten my team liched

#

which is skill issue on my part admittedly, but also quite demanding to cope with

tired tinsel
#

its more sound to rush liche from a geo/eco player not air player. or boost the air player

#

but you can force it, and if they stay on t1 you can get some friendly ground aa to play around

#

it is exploitable, ofc its exploitable if you know exactly what they are doing

lucid nymph
#

liche from air player is extremely meh yeah

vestal thistle
#

With coop you can exploit a dozen niche units, like tzar which didn't see much play until mausers got nerfed and coop kept getting popular. Doesn't mean tzar will need a nerf

tired tinsel
#

yeah so just talk about non-coop
since there's a million things that are really good with coop

lucid nymph
#

ye hence why my take is that I don't think liche combo is op, just not fun for sea

tired tinsel
#

the threat of getting your leveled destroyers one shot no wrecks is crazy

#

i just reclaim my destroyers and go t2 air or something as sea if my air player suck

vestal thistle
#

Liche shud remain untouched it's high risk high reward unit, t1 armada air already sucks, if u Nerf liche, same people will complain about abductors 1 week after

tired tinsel
#

abductors are op, only thing shit about arm t2 is their fig

#

you can use abductor with 1 fig to tank to stun flak truck or chainsaw

vestal thistle
#

Arm fig to core fig disparity isn't big enough to offset the advantages u gain by proper micro of figs

tired tinsel
#

it's a huge difference. at t2. arm fig more expensive more bp slower i believe

#

around 40% more cooldown on attack

vestal thistle
#

Fig to Fig is more about exploiting the targetting of figs, it honestly shouldn't matter if the attackspeed difference is high. But maybe needs testing I haven't seen too much of t2 fig cor vs arm

lucid nymph
#

definitely doesn't happen much in rotato, but happens a lot more in straits

vestal thistle
#

Testing shud include how well the figs perform for protecting bombers and defending against bombers

lucid nymph
#

it's not so bad in small engagements, like 5-10, but it's very brutal in large fighter exchanges

vestal thistle
lucid nymph
#

ye, especially on lane maps, which kinda jars me

autumn marsh
autumn marsh
# cold needle That doesn't match what I've observed so far in the vanilla game, and the liche ...

thats one of my points, that 1 chainsaw does not kill a liche to begin with, and liche would just target fire the chainsaw, 1 tap it and live, so theres not much difference this would make for sea's defense vs liche. And ppl who say they would get more than 1 chainsaw in anticipation for a liche are just dishonest. If it costs 1k metal you just have no metal to invest in super expensive aa at min 10, even more so the liche can just 2-3 of ur frigates/destroyers and the sea would roll you over anyway if you invest in the 1k chainsaw ship so early on

autumn marsh
# tired tinsel with t1 figs there's only like 8 speed difference if you aren't literally on top...

catchin a liche with t1 is nearly impossible if someone with skill controls it. What t1 figs do is delay the liche bombing coz the air needs the figs to clear t1 figs before he sends liche in. t1 figs are visible on radar so if you hold a group of them 5-6 behind ur ally fleet (hence you can be on both seas with 10 figs total) they will either be visible on radar and the liche wont come or the liche enjoyer will have no radar and send the liche in which then dies to the figs. Theres so many ways to counter the liche by air and most air players have enough figs to do so its just ppl not knowing/not scouting and very poor positioning on the figs they have so they cant respond in time. The only liche that is hard to counter is the coop liche. The geo going liche is a troll, it should be pretty common to scout what geo is doing anyway at 5-6 min and if he goes liche the front should get rolled coz of lack of t2 anyway (again skill diff issue)

cold needle
# autumn marsh thats one of my points, that 1 chainsaw does not kill a liche to begin with, and...

I think your point misses my core strategy -- a hypothesis may or may not be right, but the only way we'll know for certain is by testing it.

If testing shows that an idea does not have the intended effect, then I'll make adjustments and test again. My personal belief is that theorycrafting is only useful insofar as it results in new ideas to test, so I don't tend to give much weight to specific numbers: they can always be changed as needed.

Maybe the damage of a Chainsaw ship needs to be increased/decreased, maybe the cost needs to be increased/decreased, and maybe even the idea as a whole is non-viable for some random reason, but the way we find out is by testing.

digital wasp
#

never knew the justa was for justinas

autumn marsh
autumn marsh
# cold needle I think your point misses my core strategy -- a hypothesis may or may not be rig...

I do understand the testing strategy I just question the whole idea of giving sea something extra in hopes to counter liche without it breaking the game in other aspects. The fairest thing to do would be to give them static t1 def like sea chainsaw etc and then leave it to players to either use it or not (which i dont think would be used but who knows). In otherwords, the only way to make this viable is to make the aa sufficiently good and sufficiently cheap but in that case it would completely fuck the air interactions with sea in all other ways.

cold needle
#

See, that sounds like a hypothesis to me. I guess we'll need to see if its true during the testing 🙂

rare orbit
#

I can approach the liche issue one of a few ways, all somewhat wrong.

The rightest by BAR ethos is holistically alter liche ability globally, and we've seen how that is received, despite it also being same the way dragons were 'fixed' when Zow exploited them. (The idea of the changes seems more the issue than the exact ones used, which as said were super experimental)
The lightest is give liche reduced damage to boats, until navy is reworked/rebalanced, which is very much something I want to do one day, when time allows.
A T1 'heavy AA' ship would fully shut down seaplanes, basically, and mess with the later stages of torpedo bombers, especially if they're altered to be less abusable
A static chainsaw structure for sea is probably the least wrong option, presently, but is naturally somewhat limited with regards to keeping up with fleet movements, meaning any push sets you up for free deletion unless you porc creep or go heavy sea air yourself (at huge investment). Therefore, it doesn't really solve the problem.

tired tinsel
#

Probably answer is to.make it slow

#

Remember it's weak to shruiken, and perhaps with enough puffin you can snipe it if it's not in the middle.of your fleet

#

The best approach is just to go around it

#

Seaplane gunships are not always meant for killing fleet, they kill land and your bp/tidals

#

With some really good micro atm puffins can torp herrings taking minimal dmg

#

Sabres more versatile and have lower BP cost tho

rare orbit
#

I'm kind of leaning to a hybrid solution, potentially. Reduced damage to boats, reduced speed (to let T1 figs still catch rushed liches), making chainsaw sea buildable. liche probably still needs more BP cost too.

#

I will rough out a 'chainsaw boat' in stats, there's a unit I could use as a role template, but I could easily seeing it being gamebreaking
(this will be an extra tweak rather than part of the pack)

tired tinsel
#

Has to be a weaker chainsaw for sure

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

And slow, vulnerable to going around and dying to ships (but it has range)

rare orbit
#

a few of them roughly equate to same effect, with less range

tired tinsel
#

A plat has half the dps and smaller hits than plat (one shot shrui)

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

Plp sleep on the plat, is has a ton of other utility

rare orbit
#

agreed, it's why duck is in amph lab, platy is sleeper OP

tired tinsel
#

Yes it's a niche answer tho hover lab has a high BP cost

#

It's really good the best hovercraft but it takes finnese

rare orbit
#

alas so, cross labbing costs a lot for sea

tired tinsel
#

The e cost mainly is wtf

#

E stall simulator for all hover players

rare orbit
#

ikr

tired tinsel
#

Plat is not an oppressive unit but has a ton of potential

rare orbit
#

mobile would have to be really expensive though, would have to ensure a liche kill for the boat cost, meaning very good range/dps stats (also liche speed nerf required for this aspect too)

tired tinsel
#

Doesn't a chain saw trade with a liche?

#

probably make the aa ship not get 1 shot by liche but have lower dps then chainsaw and slow

rare orbit
#

not quite, and only if chainsaw shoots liche first and nothing else, and the chainsaw is the first target in range

tired tinsel
#

Just manually micro it

rare orbit
#

eg the chainsaw is already dead to enemy boats, if it's leading

tired tinsel
#

Chainsaw range is a lot better than other aa

#

Okay to trade 1 hit for the liche with the 1k invest

#

Or at least 80% kill it and force it run back home

#

Just gotta try and design it so it's not a binary interaction, liche cant one shot it, but it doesn't automatically make.liche play or seaplane play impossible

rare orbit
#

it should survive a direct shot probably, otherwise liches can kill it then be back before a replacement arrives

tired tinsel
#

Yes as a t1 boat it can benefit from t1 ship liche nerf dmg

rare orbit
#

liche should maybe be able to (survivably?) shoot a boat lump too far ahead of the AA boat, would depend on range

tired tinsel
#

Well naval player splits and their destroyers are not getting one shot

rare orbit
#

will need to live draft that I expect, hard to predict real gameplay interactions, esp when possible other friendly figs and AA boats feature

tired tinsel
#

So that's already a world different than vanilla

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

Make it not "free" to position the aa ship

tired tinsel
#

You can use a spread line formation

rare orbit
#

that leads to setting yourself up for defeat in detail, very hard to not lump boats when fighting other boats

tired tinsel
#

The match up is a lot better if lich doesn't one shot destroyers

#

That is the most toxic thing

rare orbit
#

definitely, yes

#

frigates still pretty key also, but have more mobility at least

tired tinsel
#

Well if your enemy sea opponent is strong or even then you just turtle up

#

This is only if you are ahead and want to keep pushing

autumn marsh
#

if t1 figs can catch liche then its useless at the get go, Is it possible to have it slower while its loaded and then restore speed to normal after bomb drops? so you can have more time to split when u see it coming but its not a one way trip for it either. i personally dont see the advanced t1 aa static def plausible in any way, not likely even in base at 10 min mark as it is too expensive and requires too much bp to come up in time for anything really (liche and sea planes included). Likewise the chainsaw ship would have to be significantly priced to reflect the range and damage at t1 (it can also be used to zone out figs in the cove for example of isthmus) so the bp and e cost on it would be quite prohibitive as well to make without knowing that liche is coming.

I kinda dont see any way to boost sea without making it op vs air nor to nerf liche without making it useless. What you could perhaps do is incraese liche health and reflect that in incrased price and bp cost so it wouldnt come out as fast without nerfing damage or speed.

For the part of reducing its damage vs ships -> the current sacrifice of liche is that it takes away the wreck, if you drop a bomb on 8 frigates and drop them to 10%, thats just a buff to the sea thats using the liche, you still kill those ships but now u can reclaim them too

tired tinsel
#

you can guess based on enemy air opening armada / player name
it's an option if you winning sea and have some resources to spare

tired tinsel
#

if you target wounded destroyers it leaves no wreck

#

not sure what happens when you over kill a unit with 10% left

#

when you are randomly bombing someone without navy support they should get the wreck/rez

#

liche just needs increased bp cost

#

for it's utility/speed it's bp cost is pretty low. strat bombers on the other hand are cheap resource wise but take a metric ton of bp

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

2100 metal is different than 1000 metal

autumn marsh
#

liche is 2200

#

why should you be able to counter it with t1 for 1k?

tired tinsel
#

liche can threaten everything on the map and defend com drop and amphib

#

how can you not understand it should not cost 2.2k for it to be defendable in one area

autumn marsh
#

im fine if t2 ship would be able to defend liche for 1k but not t1

#

if t1 ship can defend a t2 unit that is 2.2x more expensive it just breaks the game lol

tired tinsel
#

they make that ship you just nuke their base instead of their army

#

as long as it is slow and not very mobile

autumn marsh
#

idk i would prefer to just increase liche bp cost and price and in return increase its hp

tired tinsel
#

i think that's a nerf. more hp is a drop in the bucket against t2 figs

#

the unit has 290 speed, and aa tries to kill it's target before switching to lich unless manually targeted
You have plenty of play to thread gaps in the enemy aa

autumn marsh
#

its not for vs t2 figs but vs ground aa so it wouldnt die to whistlers 🙂 the key point is it needs bp cost increase and metal cost increase and that has to come with something extra for the unit

#

liche is a surgical bomber, you dive in to elimitane targets and hopefully get out

rare orbit
#

highly mobile units need highly mobile counters, liche should be counterable by air, and T2 air should be better at it for sure, but enough T1 should also be able to

tired tinsel
#

the unit is like 5x faster than whistlers, by that time t2 should be out on the map, potentially killing the whistlers

rare orbit
#

as you cannot always 'catch up' with an optimised T2 rushed air build, as you have very patchy scouting available usually

tired tinsel
#

the thing is the "hard counter" cannot be a mobile force. otherwise the unit has absolutel yno where to run

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

when the hard counter "shruiken" or "t2 fig" is super fast, the aggression becomes useless

rare orbit
#

it just means the fig handful dies to a few T2 figs, then liche comes in

tired tinsel
#

because no matter how much you surprise the enemy shruiken or t2 fig can zip back and delete the leak / nuke bomber

autumn marsh
#

thats not how it works

rare orbit
#

only real counter value is that it gives you a drop more time to split

tired tinsel
#

t1 air is a skill matchup
playing around friendly aa very good with the liche

autumn marsh
#

we are assuming eqal skill on air here, so liche by definition will cost around 15 t2 figs, so if the lab is done at the same time you can defend both seas from it, even if you choose to stay on t1, you will have around 50 t1 figs vs 0 t2 figs

tired tinsel
#

@rare orbit how useless are t2 gunships without air control? the reason for that is t2 figs can fly anywhere on the map in seconds and they delete t2 gunships

#

that's the problem with super fast hard answer units

#

the liche is held in check because t2 fig is so insanely fast and deadly

#

liche vs t1 figs is like shruiken vs t1 figs but more impact

#

yeah t1 figs can kill them but it's very viable to run away and t1 figs melt to enemy aa

#

so even if the enemy has more fighters doesn't mean you can't sneak around and get first strikes

#

sea builds 1k aa ship, that slows down their transition by 1k metal, then you find a weak spot somewhere else and maybe kill thier geo t2 lab or their front army

autumn marsh
#

theres no way a liche lives if you keep your t1 figs behind ur fleet and f move to liche when u see it. If liche dives for a kill it just dies, t1 core figs are faster than liche and arm just a bit slower so the only way it lives is if it turns around before t1 figs are in range

tired tinsel
#

yes, if you are hovering the correct army it dies

#

but you can see where the t1 figs are on radar likely

autumn marsh
#

what im saying is you can be hovering both

tired tinsel
#

yeah you can do that

#

against that the liche player should just slow play it. if you made that many t1 figs your t2 lab super delayed

autumn marsh
#

and that just solves the problem, I explained the radar thing before, letting ur figs be seen on radar prevents liche from diving in

#

no its not, coz you did not make the liche urself

#

i played vs blxssom liche a lot and he makes it and sits with it coz he cant do shit with it without losing it for free

tired tinsel
#

if ally has friendly aa like skaters / whistlers that provides a very good staging point for the liche

#

you can't keep t1 figs anywhere near those things, so you get pushed back

autumn marsh
#

and the key thing is if i am close to him when i see the liche with my t2 figs i can just dive and kill it coz i catch it and i have more figs

tired tinsel
#

ofc t2 figs are very good

autumn marsh
#

yea but i keep my figs behind ur fleet, you got radar with ur fleet so i only need to see when liche is coming, no aa is killing me

#

even the t1 figs the t1 basic aa like skaters and nettlers are dogshit vs big numbers as they 2 tap them so you lose around 1 fig while flying through

tired tinsel
#

so you have 10-15 figs on each side?

autumn marsh
#

if im t2 i will send 7-8 and then reinforce

#

u only need 3-4 to kill it

tired tinsel
#

skaters are not dogshit vs big numbers xD
1.4 sec cd, vs cortex each one kills a fig every 2.8 sec

autumn marsh
#

they are, you need to compare the numbers and the price

#

and im not staying over skaters or any aa anyway, 2.8 secs is more than enoguh time to fly through them so i still lose 1 per skater

tired tinsel
#

the speed difference between liche and fighter is very small

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anyways i think there's a lot you can do with t1 figs but yeah needs some good control
people say that geo rushing nuke bomber is throwing, but it's a valid move if front is stable and you have a navy lane you need to deal with

autumn marsh
#

core 3 faster arm 6 slower, hence u can run away from arm but not from core, and even to run away from arm you need to be able to turn around before u in range or u dead anyway

tired tinsel
#

well ofc you aren't going to fly head on into an area with t1 figs

#

you are one of the best t1 fig micro'er btw, most air are like asleep even at 30 os+

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

well it's just another option to convert your front advantage into a different advantage

autumn marsh
#

yea but thats by it self is skill difference on front then 🙂

tired tinsel
#

or maybe front went well

tired tinsel
autumn marsh
#

idk i think 5-6 ducks also make a big impact on sea so liche is just one of the options

tired tinsel
#

lmao no

#

ducks take a while to do stuff, they are a good annoyance and can save a lane. but no-wreck killing destroyers, the impact of the liche is like 10x faster on arrival

autumn marsh
#

the thing with ducks is you dont know how manny are coming 🙂

tired tinsel
#

they cost an arm and a leg in metal

#

they are a good unit to win a reclaim fight tho

autumn marsh
#

so does liche if it gets shot down 🙂 tbh i find sea ship micro to be best if you keep ur ships in line formation so it should be liche proof anyway

tired tinsel
#

"liche proof"

autumn marsh
#

and liche damaage to subs is nonexistant

#

unless its in shallows it dont reach deep water

tired tinsel
#

i think on isthumus you should be able to nuke amex with a nuke bomber underwater

#

not leaving wreck op af

autumn marsh
#

that would require to raide them up from the depths 😄

#

i mean u can kill it without leaving a wreck if torps as well

tired tinsel
autumn marsh
#

yea but deep enough 🙂

tired tinsel
#

tilt your camera its not deep the amex top reaches almost the surface

autumn marsh
#

yeah but its the exact depth that matters 🙂 if t2 ships can pass there its deep water

tired tinsel
#

aoe is calculated by distance
whether the nuke bomber can splash the amex

autumn marsh
#

the damage falls off rapidly for liche from the epicentre

tired tinsel
#

ima just test it

autumn marsh
#

it might be like 10% per circle

tired tinsel
autumn marsh
#

hm so 5% 😛

tired tinsel
#

just a casual 128 aoe

autumn marsh
#

coz it wont kill a destroyer at the edge

tired tinsel
#

yep
if you ground target the amex you can 1 shot it, does 5300 dmg

#

should be able to dmg maruaders too if you giga chad

autumn marsh
#

yea but marauder kill liche well enough and usually u shouldnt ground attack with liche, but set target and fly over

tired tinsel
#

i mean you can bomb the water
and soften the marauders up as they run through the sea

#

if you land a direct shot you can 1 shot marauder underwater. most of the time it does like 50%-70% dmg

autumn marsh
#

sounds like too much effort 😄

tired tinsel
#

oh less work than trying to make static defense that is zero impact on the rest of hte game
and moving cons and bp there to build it

autumn marsh
#

depends where u are and what u can do 🙂 hlts are op vs marauder as they build fast and do decent damage and are tanky you can reclaim them later if u want

lucid nymph
#

Hlts?

tired tinsel
#

im convinced u are trolling now

autumn marsh
#

im not actually 🙂

tired tinsel
#

ok bye

autumn marsh
#

it depends how many maruader u trying to defend at that spot, if 20 are running in and u got enogh res and bp for pop ups then they will do better

lucid nymph
#

hlts?

autumn marsh
#

but if its 5-6 marauder and u not floating in gold and bp then hlt is the way

#

heavy laser turrets for those who are unfamiliar 😛

#

thats a mistake ppl keep making when reacting to different things, like starting t3 gantry when marauders land on geo sea when they dont have the metal for it 🙂 different situations require different solutions and the most efficient might not be the best due to time limitations

tired tinsel
#

overwatch or beamer?

lucid nymph
autumn marsh
#

beamer

tired tinsel
#

most plp call the area control turret hlt

lucid nymph
#

Oh

Bro who refers to the beamer as the hlt

autumn marsh
#

its called heavy laser turret in game

tired tinsel
#

yeah beamer is okay ig

tired tinsel
lucid nymph
#

ye

autumn marsh
#

maybe it used to be called that idk, im sure i remember beamer being hlt and the overwatch is one step up

#

Overwatch u gonna die while building it, wouldnt not recommend 😄 does shit damage also

#

266 for beamer and 215 for overwatch dps wise

rare orbit
#

most cases I see them built (in any game) it was after lane already won, one way or another

tired tinsel
#

beamer spam good vs salamanders too

autumn marsh
#

Overwatch has its uses mainly to zone out the rocket bots and whistlers while u build gauntlet behind to take out the t1 arti

#

buts its not a turret that serves another defensive purpose, its zoning out tool so you not meant to see more than 1 really, the beamer is the power tool cheap and high dps to take out stuff thats close

rare orbit
#

indeed, but overwatch rarely able to be built before being dived ~80% finished

#

even in an otherwise won lane, it's a 'dive me pls' button

autumn marsh
#

it really depends when u building it 😄 early on theres not many things that can dive 🙂 I would assume you build it pretty early like 2 llts into overwatch, otherwise you dont do any defense and focus on units

#

it depends on the map i guess

lucid nymph
#

I've begrudgingly accepted that sometimes it is the right move against rocket bots

#

but yeah, you need defenses so you can build your defense safely

autumn marsh
#

vs rocket bots alone u can do beamer, it has 5 more range than rockets

rare orbit
#

it's also the OTA buildtime value, for 'some reason' in history unknown it was hiked up

autumn marsh
#

beamers are underused imo, they so good

#

so what do u call a beamer? a medium laser turret? MLT?

rare orbit
#

BLT

#

beamin' lettuce turret, or something

autumn marsh
#

😉 I would prefer if they had same generic names for all factions

#

now its called beam laser turret and twin guard laser turret or smth for core

#

it has same function so call it medium or heavy w/e, and the overwatch and its equivalent zooning turret or smth

vestal thistle
#

having 5 more range means nothing bcz it eats a volley from 7 rocketbot and vanishes

tired tinsel
#

hold fire micro with rocket bot 👌

random forum
rare orbit
#

suggestions welcome as to how to redress that, but without overpowering/differentially overpowering janus

#

which is hard as janus already oppressive in most strata

vestal thistle
#

Yeah pleaaaase Nerf rocketbot so meta is Janus stout 24/7

rare orbit
vestal thistle
#

Every lane which has space for veh maneuverability is still played as veh

rare orbit
#

maybe top strata, seeing a lot of rocket danmaku in places it really shouldn't be atm

vestal thistle
#

Yeah well if nubs gonna make 150 rocketbots then let them make what's the point of balancing around new players doing suboptimal plays

#

Rocketbot spam is more of an issue of thugs/maces being ultra niche i.e only usable when lane has highground to low ground dynamic

lavish goblet
#

Yeah so just make the AA ship for sea a t1 not chainsaw, but 400m aa ship with higher single target that struggles with many units, win win

#

Also on the janus / rocket bot thing, who was complaing about janus vs rocket bots wtf, isn't it more an issue about core vech vs janus being completely out classed?

tired tinsel
#

It probably has to be a heavy 1k metal ship so that other units can exploit the places where it isnt

lavish goblet
#

nah it doesn't have to be, or you should just give the t2 flak ship since it's basically a chainsaw already

tired tinsel
#

Na but it has superior range and can actually range angler and nuke bomber

#

If air vs seaplanes is as easy as making 2 400m ships one for base and one in your army that's pretty ez

#

If it has 1k+ range it has to be one expensive ship

tired tinsel
tired tinsel
vestal thistle
#

Thugs are not viable on maps like flats even a little bit

tired tinsel
#

Not that wide

vestal thistle
#

Example of map?

tired tinsel
#

More open but not huge travel distance. Pawn retreat I believe

vestal thistle
#

Pawn retreat is rocketbot spam ye

tired tinsel
#

I like them cause they can bully a com while controlling space and giving you some defense against charges

vestal thistle
#

Thugs also not viable on low metal maps like pawns retreat

tired tinsel
#

Just making a few

vestal thistle
#

U need high metal map and high ground advantage like bismuth south lane

#

U can usually kill every veh opener on bismuth south with thugs and establish mexes advantage against rocketbots with thugs bcz of the hill

#

Very narrow and Niche lane

tired tinsel
#

Huh

vestal thistle
#

Bismuth south has a hill

tired tinsel
#

So you just hide behind the hill when rockets come?

vestal thistle
#

No u stay on the hill

#

Thugs same range and rocketbots bcz of high ground plasma adv

tired tinsel
#

Really it's that close

vestal thistle
#

U just straight up win if the rocketbot guy tries to push uphill

#

The hill blocks most radar vision too

#

Watch any of emre's games on bismuth south ull get the idea

#

Emre is the underscore named guy ingame

thick inlet
#

Wouldn’t Bulls deserve a bit of hp buff? It’s strange it has less ho than Tiger, certainly does not look like that. It also looses to Tigers per metal (3 Tigers vs 2 Bulls)

woeful depot
#

Bulls have insane AoE and dps advantage against tigers + more range , they are not used in the same way

clever lava
#

I like bulls. They're "tough" to get because at that stage it always feels heavy on the economy. But they deliver if you commit to it. It's a directional play. Not all units can be ubiquitous and homogeneous in their availability. That's the risk

clever lava
# rare orbit beamin' lettuce turret, or something

Lol. Would you like some salad with that fried ticken.

I like the HLT suggested change. I think being able to use them more efficiently would add a healthy dynamic. It would certainly balance out or alleviate the(current situation of) janus and rocket presence

clever lava
#

We must consider a maps like 8 horses and similar styled maps. Introducing hard core T1 AA ships. Would essentially cut off the air player and the air player of won sea Lane will effectively have a field day of air superiority and destruction. The entire map meta could change to push out t1aa ships while air spams bombers. Air or sea would would need an effective response to these ships.

thick inlet
marble talon
#

@rare orbit can we get .8b with fixed karg BP?

tired tinsel
#

bull is an aoe kiter with better range

#

tiger is a high hp pusher with mostly st dmg

#

honestly tiger is a bit underwhelming i feel like the stout does 90% of it's job with better dps per cost

rare orbit
#

people react badly even when things are explictly tagged as 'super experimental ultra test' changes, so need to try to get closer to final first

marble talon
thick inlet
tired tinsel
#

salamander is a better raider due to higher dps per cost and emp immunity, and less vunerable to dgun, tiger is only for brute force pushing and being a mobile defensive line (t1 medium tanks are pretty fine at that role)

cerulean skiff
rare orbit
#

Latest, with fewer typos and a better liche nerf

    buildtime = 77400,
    energycost = 66000,
    weapondefs = {
        arm_pidr = {
            damage = {
                lboats = 2810,
                hvyboats = 3350,
            },
        },
    },

Again, I'm very aware special damages are not the ideal fix, but is the least wrong option presently possible, with the least balance collateral. Actual numbers for speed change and build/E costs still highly debatable.

Objectives are: help identification of liche via approaching radar dot, and allow T1 air to interact with it. Delay arrival, and help allow counterplay to the free delete / instant lane flip that's the result of from-the-fog liches striking boat balls that essentially -have- to exist in most naval maps, then them getting clean away to flip more lanes elsewhere, or be eaten to turn into T2 figs, preventing any air counterattacks.

📎 current0801alpha.txt
autumn marsh
#

From the number I assume it will still kill frigates but leave a wreck now and wont 1 tap destroyers, takes around 1/3 more bp to build which equates to around 10 sec delay and will die to t1 once spotted on the map coz you got no figs and enemy can run you down to your base, a.k.a. liche useless, no point going for it. Would be nice to test it to see how bad the numbers reflect on the game but not sure ppl will want to 😄

This is not a complaint from my side coz its just a tweak, but why triple nerf? As far as I recall, the reduced speed was already tested and it was pretty shit with it to begin with, and now 2 extra nerfs. I dont have a clue about coding tbh but is it not possible to tweak the speed only when its loaded and fire state is 'ready' or smth so it goes back to full speed after bombing?

fierce scaffold
#

Definitely not by a tweak, and it would probably be still difficult with full changes.

thick inlet
lavish goblet
#

I reckon for the potency of turning a 10m hard-fought won sea lane, where the sea player had to execute strategy, micro and macro constantly against their opponent to perform said t1 aggression, into a hard lost lane that requires help to avoid immanent death within approximately 3 seconds of seeing a stray radar dot approach your ships, having it catchable by t1 aircraft is probably ok and won't reduce it's impact too hard. It seems you can still completely change the lane, but now they have a handful of 10% destroyers leftover and they were likely able to spread out in time to react and not lose 8k metal in one hit. Sounds super potent to me still.

Also, this is an experimental patch, and still likely to change. The whole point of it is to test these changes and see what fits right.

autumn marsh
# lavish goblet I reckon for the potency of turning a 10m hard-fought won sea lane, where the se...

what you will get now is the good old torp bombers wrecking you again, 3 of them 1.2k metal, minimal investment and your hard thought sea is still in the same position. But we can test this tweak today and see how it goes. the problem is to find equalish skilled sea players to last 10 min and equally skilled air players to make this somewhat of a test rather than just one air 3 fusion t2 the other on a-solars and t1

lavish goblet
#

It's not the same position, as the torps take time to kill the ships and have counter play in form of supporter spam / walls to block shots

#

Absolutely true too, the lack of skill in positions can sway this heavily either way. For me though I think currently it's too strong vs naval, I think after this it's still good vs naval though.
I don't understand why the t1 figs should not be able to catch such a potent unit easier.

lucid nymph
#

make seaplane lab as cheap as a tick so there could be seaplane fighters hiding anywhere, waiting for the liche

#

you should be able to build 30 seaplane labs for the cost of a frigate imo

autumn marsh
# lavish goblet Absolutely true too, the lack of skill in positions can sway this heavily either...

as a decent air player i can tell you even now air vs air liche is barely viable on isthmus with equally skilled air players and assuming t2 cons are at the same time. its super constly and puts you on the back foot for a good part of the game regardless if you do damage or not (which you wont do much damage vs equally skilled air). t1 can kill it now, just need to have a good air positioning. Also if we scout air or geo as arm, just use line formations for sea, too many ppl put everything in a nice tight ball and then cry that it got liche'd, even with this nerf 1 way journey to souch a ball would end ur sea if most of ur fleet die and leave wreck field for opponent to reclaim and recover 🙂 will try testing it out today in the higher lobbies for the sake of it

elfin frigate
#

Maybe more of an issue with ticks if so many units need faster shots to even hit them though.

clever lava
#

Slightly off center here but a thought occurred to me after watching the rompy raghna 1v1 a while back. LSD discussing the op repair power of the air repair pad. Then him also saying he literally never built them. Which I could also agree with. Which led me to think, why was the aircraft carrier replaced with the support ship. They both provided anti and 300+ power. Any repairs are being facilitated but rez subs. The aircraft carrier was imo infinity cooler than the current "fishing vessel" that replaced it. Also the aircraft carrier provided the air repair pad. So the removal of the aircraft carrier then necessitated the introduction of a naval stationary air repair pad, which again, I never build. It just seems like a superfluous round about that didn't actually solve anything, provided an actual disadvantage to not having an air repair pad organically built via the AC and introduced a structure more unused than the land version of the air repair pad. It seems like a strange succession of decisions than ultimately didn't provide any value to the game. Or did I miss something?

autumn marsh
# clever lava Slightly off center here but a thought occurred to me after watching the rompy r...

nature of air combat renders repair pad rather useless most of the time, it only really works for gunships in theory but by that point people are likely forgetful to even make it and if there is one on the map like it used to be it only made things worse coz your units by defualt would go and use it when dropping below 30% or w/e which significantly impacted bombers. Basically stuff just dies too fast and health pool of air units at early enogugh point in the game and later your eco just too big to bother with units flying back midway to repair

wintry wasp
#

Few more isthmus games with latest patch:
https://bar-rts.com/replays/4f4b5466d9d1779da862cbc9eaf20ddc T2 AA bots
https://bar-rts.com/replays/b8505466b84d01788b38e6df5502fda8 Angler play's from Justa5
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=805a5466ed9887a83bfd0de21ea1e90e Banishers
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=746154662f46db517d5ed17c1ff99377 Lots of Salamanders vs Jaguars (feels much better imo), Seaplanes, Siegebreaker
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=7d6b54669830d3137fe6dd860ce9c96e Liche (gets ripped apart by t2 figs, nerfs maybe went too far?) Depth Charge drone carrier, Anglers, Cormorant, Banisher, Siege breaker, Gunships, Marauders (eventually)
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=f078546655d536c56d4c1338855e1e33 Liche, Drone ship
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=5785546693a0b68dcedc6a7419edb4c4 (didn't catch much of this one)

clever lava
# autumn marsh nature of air combat renders repair pad rather useless most of the time, it only...

I know this. I play air predominantly too. Which again runs my thought process along the lines of " why replace the aircraft carrier at all" at least it provided the service we never used to begin with, but at least it was there on a recognisable and awesome ship that exists in the worlds best navies. It just seems like it was replaced with a ship that does less and you were then awarded with a extra structure you will cost you something to never build.

I think the point that I'm trying to make is where as I was on board with some of the expanded sea pack, which may have got my vote. (I don't like flame boats or electricity boats. I guess I'm old school and I'm pretty sure the inventor the a boat that fires electricity wouldn't live long enough to get a job Promotion. But I know u need a way to deal with spam. But they're still a bit clown ) anyways... I digress, what I'm saying is where the pack may have gotten my vote, indivually I wouldn't have voted for the support ship. So bundling up lots of changes and wrapping a bow around them and asking people to vote yes or no is risky and a reckless. I think each change needs to be very carefully vetted and considered. Bar has the most amazing pool of user testing availability and I think it's very important to listen to the community about push back on nerfs or changes. Rather than make one faction worse to suit the other rather make other faction better. I know it's not that simple. But from the sentiment I got from this thread is that the was a general negative response to the liche nerf and yet it still got triple nerfed. Are polls put out? Are the results of these polls made available. How do we know we're not just replacing aircraft carriers with fishing boats.

wintry wasp
#

@rare orbit few games on latest pack #1186850950770610207 message

woeful depot
#

Unnecessary liche nerf

prisma bane
#

thinking too hard with the liche

its completely fine if it cant oneshot frigate balls from full health

its hugely expensive, if it cant instantly win a sea with a single bomb it becomes a massive, very vulnerable commitment

it would still have a big impact even if all it does is leave frigates on 5%, forcing a retreat to repair/reclaim and rebuild, it just wouldn't instantly win the sea

the rest of it is fine, its not too strong in any other way, if anything it's mildly underpowered

ionic sonnet
#

Ya agreed. Also, after playing a lot of not sea over the last few days, sea does not need to be buffed at all. It's already extremely oppressive for a million other reasons. See: missle ships that 1 shot your eco, crazy jammers, basically incontestable underwater eco, flagships. I used to agree about torpedo bombers being too strong. Nope! Leave them. They're fine.

prisma bane
ionic sonnet
#

Don't agree at all. They do crazy damage in 1 shot and destroy bases and there's little anyone can do.

lavish goblet
#

well, what can you do vs a missile ship, is there anything you can make to reasonably combat it?

fierce scaffold
#

I've heard a liche is pretty good against them 😉

lavish goblet
#

sure, I am more thinking tac nuke, air units, basilica i guess maybe? emp missile, pulsar, missile trucks

#

removing some of the time aspect from gaining or preparing with those, they can do the job to varying effectiveness.

ionic sonnet
#

Ya they do kill them but they have already fired their missle and no more base feelsbad.

lavish goblet
#

yes, but on sea you do not have any option other than a flak ship

ionic sonnet
#

I think flak ships are fine. They completely invalidate torpedo when moved kinda close to shore. Any terrain? Ya torpedoes don't work either. Have a jammer? No torpedo hit. Spamming scouts into a big ball of ships for vision? Hope you have vision right when you are targeting or gg.

uneven coral
ionic sonnet
#

None of those prevent a unit with 1550 range firing its missle and killing your base. Or worse, 3 of them one shotting anything in your base.

arctic finch
#

i would like to sell you unit called titan

cerulean skiff
#

Isn't that a completely different timing?

arctic finch
#

yea titan might be bit much for cruise missile ships so lets go with banishers for them my personal favorite agains them would be starlight but they where denied earlier

wintry wasp
#

range is to low tho?

arctic finch
#

if you are not fighting the ships in far in water sure but if they are attacking longer in land then no

ionic sonnet
#

Banishers have like 800 range

arctic finch
#

yea but with their mobility you are not gonna hit them with cruisemissile ships

rare orbit
rare orbit
rare orbit
#

which is ... interesting, as rotato lobbies tend not to even have air players half the time, hence the wailing when someone dared use dragons

#

liches are in a very weird balance place to begin with, so they're hard to alter, but they are very undercosted in E and BP compared to other bombers. As I said, the exact numbers for speed/E/BP cost are very debatable, but even with the speed changes, T1 figs still need to be in position to catch it before it's back somewhere safe

autumn marsh
#

well after playing few games the liche does seem to be not very impactful, its much safer and impactful to go torp bombers instead, half the price and longer lasting impact as way better micro potential. Once liche shows up air shows up so you might land 1 hit and damage the ships but thats about it. Then i come with torps and win the sea. Its kinda high risk high reward unit and now the reward is very little as you got to time it super well with ur sea player, the ships gotta be stacked somewhat so u dont just damage 1 destroyer and ur sea partner needs to hit hard before the ships get repaired.

ionic sonnet
#

Also torps are always the counter to liche, to support sea, but your air player might be bad, which is what it is

autumn marsh
autumn marsh
prisma bane
# autumn marsh the only thing that deals with missile ships from land is tac nuke launcher and ...

90% of the time for a missile cruiser to hit anything that matters it needs to come in range of shore defences

I've successfully defended myself against them with a single t2 arty

The liche isn't a problem when it's made by the air player, provided both air players are competent, it's the ease with which a player from another position can rush one to have a massive impact on a sea lane with (relatively) minimal commitment

#

But yes, when a sea player manages to get a 2k metal artillery piece in place to hit your economy it's effective. Why the fuck would you think it shouldn't be?

#

It's a massive commitment of metal, almost completely incapable of defending itself, very slow, and has pretty terrible DPS.

The counters to it are many and varied, you just need to actually deploy then

ionic sonnet
#

Oh ya the poor sea player with 18 mexes. Right. Really hard.

prisma bane
#

I have never once been hit by a missile ship and thought 'man this unit is overpowered' even when I was trash at the game

Every single time, the problem has been my own play, not the unit

autumn marsh
autumn marsh
arctic finch
#

idk why it feels like everytime ppl are talking about cruise missile ships it seems that they are always shooting in shore line and by doing so nothing can shoot back at them

prisma bane
# autumn marsh t2 arty does not outrange the missile ship, Im more talking about front getting...

Lrpc and tac nuke both arm pretty reasonable as counters, and they are far from the only ones, a simple pulsar and two snipers under jammer deal with them pretty easily. (The pulsar is built a little ways from the shore, to push away other ships, and the snipers delete the missile cruiser when it tries to shoot the pulsar, because it has to get close to the shore to do so)

t2 popup arty actually has identical range to missile cruisers, while being incredibly hard for them to kill, meaning that with micro you can force them to either spend all their time microing their missile cruiser, lose it, or back off

rare orbit
autumn marsh
autumn marsh
wintry wasp
#

Honestly the problemIi mainly find is spotting the ships, not shooting them

Naval radar jammer can sit safely back etc, so you end up with t1 air scout spam as pretty much the only option.

I do need to try a patrolling t2 scout just on the edge which should work

arctic finch
#

spy bots gremlins beholders

autumn marsh
#

i mean mostly juno on repeat will deal with the issue but thats also costly

#

most of the time you dont really need to spam scouts, just put them on patrol on the shore and replace when they die, or if you spam you also need to rally them in a zigzag fashion so they stay alive for longer and provide more constant vision

prisma bane
thick inlet
#

I feel like the Arm Air should be buffed, rather than nerfed

rare orbit
thick inlet
autumn marsh
#

everything else in arm t2 air is good as is

rare orbit
rare orbit
ionic sonnet
#

i like the gunship rework that has been done

rare orbit
#

ideally I'd like to find a balance point for arm T2 figs that isn't a mirror of core, but that's probably not too possible to do

autumn marsh
rare orbit
#

arm can get T2 air lab out about 30-40s before core can, on high wind maps

prisma bane
rare orbit
#

I -think- meta would resolve, eg players would drop enough T1 AA to tip scales back again

#

ideally I'd like to find something asym that results in comparable effectiveness, but that boils down to sym balance anyway so might as well just do it properly

#

making arm figs slightly weaker but cheaper and swarmier, like seafigs, is something I want to try, but AoE weapons will affect them moreso than vamps

tired tinsel
#

That's prolly a factor

prisma bane
tired tinsel
#

if nuke bomber doesn't one shot destroyers if you don't want to leave wreck you can just self d your destroyers
while the liche bomb lands

ionic sonnet
#

complaining about virtually unraidable mexes is insane?

tired tinsel
prisma bane
tired tinsel
#

the land t2 mexes are the one you want to disrupt, unless you can do it very early

arctic finch
tired tinsel
#

tac nuke to kill a t2 mex is lol

ionic sonnet
#

ya tac nukes are easy to build and practical for this use case said everyone ever

prisma bane
ionic sonnet
#

how much does a tzar cost to fire?

tired tinsel
#

but they are not a tzar
tac nuke costs like what 500metal to fire

prisma bane
#

they arent practical to use to kill t2 mexes, i will agree

tired tinsel
#

crazy thing is juno costs like 400m converted to fire
its oof expensive

prisma bane
rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

do you get a notification for tac lanch firing?

prisma bane
tired tinsel
#

500/15644
that's about 750 metal converted

#

1900 metal converted to build

#

it's good for sure, but vunerable

#

emp launcher is the OP one with ridiculous range

rare orbit
#

emp launcher one of the most OP things in base game, rarely built though

prisma bane
tired tinsel
#

tac launcher you have chances to snipe or push into it. emp launcher can simply emp their lab xD

#

and on specific map it can influence both sea at the same time

#

62% more range, 163% more area

prisma bane
#

yah, emp launcher is very very good

so is tac nuke 😛

tired tinsel
#

you have to place it in a bit more risky position

#

which is the main risk of tac nukes... they are an investment you have to defend

#

until they are loaded 1-2 shots then they can help defend themselves

#

defeinitely underutilized outisde of high os

prisma bane
#

yes, those things are true, and they are still the last word in porc wars, even if EMP is able to have effect on other things more

random forum
#

liche change been reverted since hornet agreed sea was the issue not air?

tired tinsel
#

35 speed nerf is gigantic

#

since the boat dmg nerf (which is huge for navy) and bit of bp cost nerf

rare orbit
#

sea / air interaction is the issue, and as I said constantly, that change was temporary/testing

#

the speed might be a little too much off the top, unclear yet

random forum
#

liche back to normal then in the pack?

rare orbit
#

needs to be enough that it's wary of T1 figs

tired tinsel
#

i only suggested -20speed nerf xD

rare orbit
#

-20 makes it parity with T1 figs so they can't catch it, iirc

tired tinsel
#

it's already similiar speed

#

i think boats is the only mandatory fix, and bp increase

rare orbit
#

similar irrelevant if it can run ahead of a conga line of T1 figs trying to kill it, while it drops unmissable tacnukes for free over your backline

tired tinsel
#

it's not gonna get PAST your figs. it's mainly an issue if there's an air diff for what ever reason liche will destroy your team

#

its strong when there's skill diff or no air maps then you can swap into it after you are doing a ground push and winnign to attack from 2 vectors

rare orbit
#

same logic as dragon AA not being too good, T1 has to have some answer to it when rushed still, even if not optimal

tired tinsel
#

also on high wind maps very risky to do t1 bombing run because if you don't cripple the enemy air you can get counter liched

rare orbit
#

I agree speed might be a little too slow now, not seen enough replays where it features yet

tired tinsel
#

if enemy player is decent with t1 figs the liche is trying to wait and bait enemy figs into friendly aa
and strike various frontlines and retreat back to friendly aa

random forum
#

we gave op feedback but it didn't matter, very sad 😦

rare orbit
#

feedback was considered, like I said those changes were temporary

#

I'm still trying to differentially balance remember. OP lobby is not the one true experience of the game that everyone has, and 'git gud' is not the answer

#

the boat damage reduction in some cases is a buff, as it can leave wrecks. handline and delayed arrival also needed

#

the unique speed also lets players ident it from radar dot alone, if it's T1 fig speed exactly, you can just troll players into fleet splitting with constant T1 fig trickles and pick the boats off

random forum
#

it's okay, you do your thing, that's alright, hopefully all goes well

rare orbit
#

if you want to help with the process you're more than welcome to, replays with pack on greatly appreciated

tired tinsel
rare orbit
#

hopefully yes, not seen enough replays yet / people haven't had time to get used to changes

rare orbit
#

I still kind of feel that boat was missed and it's a little backwards to U turn around for the sake of the stragglers, but if it helps get useful feedback and changes then, whatever works

random forum
#

about the liche, you had the perfect in game situation happening, having Blxssom spam liche on op lobby for weeks, then realize it's not op at all and stop
perfect oportunity to make the right decision but apparently, it's more about emotions than real balancing

rare orbit
#

it's about the alpha damage potential of liche, esp vs boats, compared to reactables such as dragon

#

potential value is obscene and it's too hard to catch for the damage it does

tired tinsel
arctic finch
#

liche is fine issue is with ships

tired tinsel
#

And it's easiest to counter when you purely do that

rare orbit
#

as said, it's a 'least wrong' solution

tired tinsel
#

Special ship dmg

autumn marsh
tired tinsel
#

Like 1.5 rattlesnakes

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

Oh that's fine

fierce scaffold
tired tinsel
#

Liche to ship dmg is already a big step

rare orbit
#

I can try it with something closer to T1 fig, but I easily imagine that is exploitable, forcing degrouping and letting the boats be picked off

tired tinsel
#

I think radar speed identification is super niche compared to speed for practical uses

woeful depot
#

This is only strait meta issue

tired tinsel
#

Especially for air units within 25 speed

woeful depot
#

You can’t nerf liche only cause strait sea meta

#

Abductors remain untouched somehow on this patch too

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

Yeah u have to try liche on other map, there are some good wind rotato.maps

woeful depot
#

Liche needs to be fastest bomber by a margin it’s a premium unit

#

I mean is armada biggest aircraft

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

It's the most expensive arm unit air unit, the counterpart to dragons. On the vast majority of maps it isn't an issue at all

#

Watch Blxssom replays where he tries to force it on every map and see how it pans out. * On high OS rotato

woeful depot
#

Ye if you mean defending against t3 on lategame it’s good yes , like rapiers and cobras

tired tinsel
#

When uncontested liche does more dmg and can fly between holes in aa defense much better than strat.bomber

woeful depot
#

Ye hornet got cooked many times on rotato and flamed

rare orbit
tired tinsel
woeful depot
#

Cause liche rushing all games

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

Yes, but that means that there are counters.

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

Diagonal front maps = more surface area for liche

cerulean skiff
#

I don't feel like Liches are an issue outside of straight. I feel like for every "Liches worked well here" there are 3 "going Liches was a throw"

tired tinsel
#

You can notice air player being afk and opening arm and split your ground forces

rare orbit
ionic sonnet
#

yup, liches, as I've said on strait or any other map, are just a diff. if air player makes it, or if geo then it's just double air and hard to deal with

rare orbit
#

and 'sea maps' does not just mean strait so can we not trot that one out again please

ionic sonnet
#

ya rotatoes basically cant help missing the piont, they're hard-wired

tired tinsel
#

Liche is just unit to abuse air diff?

ionic sonnet
#

nah, you can do that w/ any air units

clever lava
#

It's supposed to be hard. Nuke bombers aren't supposed to arrive with sandwiches and muffins and stop for tea. It's supposed to suck

woeful depot
#

Lmao we are not hard-wired

tired tinsel
#

Yeah but liche is the most mobile and good at killing armies at the same time

ionic sonnet
#

🙂

tired tinsel
#

Rotato skip all sea map so pretend those don't exist

cerulean skiff
#

FN, Erebos, and Glacial see a ton of play

tired tinsel
#

No they dont

#

I think we played like 2 naval maps in like 50 games

cerulean skiff
#

Which one of us plays in primary in rotation lobbies? #1241514360367747112 message

rare orbit
#

if rotato played sea you'd have Vanaja there, you don't, therefore it doesn't :P

tired tinsel
woeful depot
clever lava
#

That air player has put everything on the line for that rush. And as 1 air player has so much responsibity. That opportunity cost can either pay off in a single lane win or some dividends or it can go really badly. For the whole team

woeful depot
#

Today

clever lava
#

It's not meta. It's high risk at best

tired tinsel
#

"Tons of"

rare orbit
#

ANYWAY, back on track, I can try just the ship DPS reduction, and see what that does, but I suspect not enough to not make it oppressive given the lane switching abilities

#

and the reactive splits sea players have to do before even knowing if it's a liche, is its own problem

cerulean skiff
# tired tinsel "Tons of"

That's fair. Not a ton of play, but they are played Along with other maps that have naval. 8 horses, Salmiakki, pinch point, etc. saying my we never play sea is simply inaccurate

woeful depot
#

Why a t2 expensive atomic bomber shouldn’t one shot t1 units it’s design inconsistency

rare orbit
tired tinsel
rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

They play it less than before it feels

rare orbit
#

even pitbulls and vipers have boat damage reduction

tired tinsel
rare orbit
#

I agree, as said so many times, it's not the ideal fix, but it is the least wrong fix

woeful depot
#

Imo is a sea rework issue and not a liche issue

rare orbit
fierce scaffold
#

The damage reduction to boats sounds like a contained and reasonable change that doesn't affect Liche behavior otherwise, I think it's fine to try

cerulean skiff
#

I mean, the vast majority of my games are in rotation lobbies, and I've never felt that they are oppressive.

fierce scaffold
#

We can argue and go back and forth on whether it's problematic otherwise aside from that interaction but I honestly think this particular damage modifier change should be pretty unambiguously okay

tired tinsel
#

It's true that straits has many features that make it ideal for liche

#

But liche against navy one shooting destroyers is good no matter the map

woeful depot
#

If we leave liche as it is but we nerf a bit damage vs boats could be ok

#

Something that rotato might accept

tired tinsel
#

Destroyers are the critical units that impact land, 950 metal, leveled up, reinforce slow

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

You work hard all game to keep your destroyer alive then liche deletes the lane

cerulean skiff
#

Also ok with that. The game I watched with the current rework made turtles look like a better use of metal than Liches

rare orbit
#

the speed change really helps make that dot unique, and less likely the liche can free escape

fierce scaffold
#

I mean, show me a rotation lobby game where that liche damage to ships nerf would change things

tired tinsel
#

Play some eight horses

arctic finch
#

other way to go to this could be just buff t1 navy aa damage and leave liche alone

fierce scaffold
tired tinsel
#

I got some ideas

cerulean skiff
#

Erebos is the only naval map I feel like I consistently see liche

rare orbit
cerulean skiff
#

FN it isn't as common for some reason

tired tinsel
#

No cause they haven't cooked yet

#

I mean boosting sea is the easier way but fuck boosting very boring

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

1k metal heavy aa ship that is slow... seaplane fan go elsewhere

#

Hit their base as their ships are protected

rare orbit
#

anything like sea reworking / liche interaction, is getting out of scope really

tired tinsel
#

Plp forget seaplanes can just go elsewhere

arctic finch
#

well atm its something like 20 shots from t1 aa boat you could buff the number so it would go down to needing like only 15 shots and you would make this only apply to t1 AA ships nothing else

woeful depot
#

Also , minelayer building dragon claws ?? Do you know how broken is that ?

rare orbit
#

if we can keep to one storm in a teacup at a time please I'd appreciate it though

tired tinsel
#

if we go in order of least disruptive changes to most, herring seperate aa range and buff it's aa dmg by 10-20%
makes sense that herring is same or slightly better aa for cost than skater, since it's slower, currently it's 210 vs 150 metal same dps

fierce scaffold
#

The Whistler treatment

tired tinsel
#

herring is just slow (more vunerable, reinforces slower) and expensive for its role

#

the added radar was great tho

#

allows you to run a herring + riptide formation without crashing into the enemy blind

rare orbit
fierce scaffold
#

Also sounds reasonable considering how much of a Whistler in disguise herring are, really 😛

autumn marsh
ionic sonnet
#

i think u right click on the stockpile

prisma bane
prisma bane
rare orbit
rare orbit
# prisma bane this the only change im asking for

I was explicitly trying to avoid it as it's against BAR ethos, but unfortunately is the least wrong fix possible, and the perfect idea of sea reworking cannot be enemy of the good options now, etc

autumn marsh
rare orbit
#

it's as if OS doesn't correlate to game knowledge, or something

cold needle
# autumn marsh see i didnt know u can limit any stockpile, I feel empowered, like my os just ro...

ProTip: Limit your antinuke stockpiles to 0. That way, your team can't complain that you didn't build an antinuke, AND you don't need to pay for ammo! (Message sponsored by your neighborhood nuke-rusher)

On a more relevant topic, its always seemed weird to me that some Sea players will build antinuke ships (with 0 stockpile) for energy generation, instead of underwater fusions. Just kinda sad that the sea fusions are so bad that its viable to do that...

rare orbit
#

it's viable as a step, but sea fusion is really bad unfortunately yes

rare orbit
#

@thick tangle

tired tinsel
#

it's only 97% as effecient as fusion
not so bad
just it require more bp, doesn't build as fast

cold needle
#

Yeah, I get that -- what I'm saying is it just feels really weird (from a thematic point of view) to see it work out that way. I don't think its necessarily imbalanced from a gameplay perspective.

rare orbit
#

underwater it should be more efficient if anything, when running. more buildtime makes some sense

#

but they're bad to scale with, comparatively

tired tinsel
#

Apparently it'd just 3% worse, they produce 1100

lavish goblet
#

I'd take all that if the dragon wasn't nerfed because of a or a couple of open all front only maps, it seems like a double standard and quite bizarre the reasoning I've heard for the dragon nerf

ionic sonnet
#

ye, dragon is meme only unit, if u die to dragon u got memed on.gg coulda happend a million other ways

elfin frigate
#

But one good player rushed them on one map and it was OP, where have I heard that argument shit on before....

vestal thistle
elfin frigate
#

Are they? T2 scout planes have sonar and you can bomb underwater fusions with regular T2 bombers.

vestal thistle
vestal thistle
pallid sigil
elfin frigate
vestal thistle
#

ITS A MINELAYER LET IT LAY MINES

pallid sigil
#

Only in fairly deep water cases is it not possible to use t2 bombers to kill uw fusions

elfin frigate
#

I don't think he was saying it's not possible, just that it's harder, and it is, marginally. The thing that makes it harder is knowing that you 'can' use T2 bombers to kill them. It's the exact same set of units used to kill land eco though.

#

Would love to hear some reasons why the minelayer building dragons claws/maws is crazy strong. I don't think it 'needs' it but the use cases seem niche if potentially strong. It's hard to sneak stealthy units into backlines/bases yet alone stand there for a minute in a location where building one would deal decent damage.

vestal thistle
#

Its faster than cons so it will reach frontline faster so the popup building will barely be slower due to lower BP.
It has jammer so you wont even be able to tell if a side of the map is being fortified despite being under your radar coverage (especially in 1v1s since radar are your main info to react to things)
It can lay mines before making the popup so u cant even be rushing the popups to get flank dmg and kill it.
The unit already is cheap+has jammer+has a juno attack to kill mines+is very fast

elfin frigate
#

You might struggle on E to build mines early to defend the popups in most maps but those are really good points, especially the rushing them to build jammed defences.

tired tinsel
#

why give it the best defensive building

#

popups are pretty cancer atm 25% dmg taken oof

#

maybe nanos should keep a shadow in fog of war after being spotted

elfin frigate
#

It's the only defence you can build that is stealthed, anything else would pop up on radar after the minelayer moves and reveals the defence and the fact you have mine-layers around, assuming you're under radar.

tired tinsel
#

inb4 mine layer becomes t1 commando

#

to be serious it hink there's enough ways to porc in this game

#

don't need a stealthy swiss army knife of porc

lucid nymph
#

personally I think the commando should be able to build AFU

bigthink

lucid nymph
fierce scaffold
lucid nymph
#

it's just so nice to have an early popup with cheap-ass bp

lucid nymph
#

someone is going to be AFK enough that they don't notice

lucid nymph
elfin frigate
#

choice said you might do it to stop units flanking them.

vestal thistle
#

thats only for 1v1s

#

maps r usually wide enough that no porc can defend vs medium tanks except mines

marble talon
fierce scaffold
marble talon
#

excellent work, no notes

rare orbit
autumn marsh
#

i think with juno rework on the minelayer automatically is a better unit coz it makes it that much more potent to just trans with ur marauder or w/e u got and kill the mines infront of ur path. And it being stealthy it should not be able to build any static def as I would assume it would be too impactful on 1v1s and smaller games in general where map control is not a straight lane.