The Tremor: Let's see how useful it is, now.

[sweet cedar]

I'm in the subgroup you categorise as a skill issue, but as far as I can see, it's not a skill issue if none of your units can physically intercept the marauders, it's an issue of marauders being much too fast for powerful T3 units. What am i supposed to do, have a bunch of mammoths and shivas idle in every lane, just in case the marauders decide to attack that way? This would be a tremendous waste of metal compared to the arm player just spamming ticks to see which way is easiest to attack, then clicking on the afus farm and heading downstairs for a well-earned cup of coffee.

If it really is a skill issue, please explain how i am supposed to stop marauders as a Core player, or an arm player without a bunch of marauders already built.

Marauders are much harder to kill than any other T3, T2 or T1 if you don't have a big tickswarm, lots of abductors or a huge amount of static defences where the marauders happen to attack, because they can run away from all non-air or tick units.

[cobalt moth]

you essentially need to know by way of radar where marauders are coming before they approach the frontline and that requires radar and/or proper scouting. With enough advance warning you can make any or a few of: scorpions, spybots, shurikens, wasps, t2 walls, fiends, dragons, demons, banishers, rolling bombs, tigers, tzar, mammoth, bulwark, salamander and fiend. some of those need to be used in combination with others

[tulip mesa]

Marauders crit mass poorly, since they can't shoot over each other and have basically no aoe.

High walls with spaces in between can also stall marauders for kinda cheap. Skip every other wall to save metal, marauders can't go through just 1 space.

[sweet cedar]

BTW the skill issue of defending against marauders is not confined to unskilled players. In this twitch stream, PRO_rANDY lost his build power to a few marauders, despite having his commander on standby, quite a lot of bulls and two razorbacks available to defend. He has OS 52, so if he can't successfully defend against marauders, I would assume it's not actually a skill issue, but is rather a marauder issue.

#announcements message

[cobalt moth]

you're supposed to lose your stuff in games, those units could've been platypus, hovers or salamanders and the outcome would've been the same

@gray gazelle can you please chime in here i'm trying to make the point that while marauders are good, they're not undefendable and are only op in specific situations

[dim lodge]

they are defendable, but the effort and prepreparing to do so is usually vastly more than the effort needed to use the maras - especially as all that prepreparing may be completely wasted if no maras appeared. backline intel in T3 stage is very hard to get, you can very rarely scout them

plus, most of the things that can catch or range-zone them, are also arm units

[cobalt moth]

a gantry costs 7.9k m and 58k E you can't be serious

in other words if you make 10 marauders from a gantry, your opponent all things equal can make a t2 lab, an air lab, 10 scorpions, 10 spybots, 30 shurikens, 20 fiends and still have metal left over

[tulip mesa]

Supersonic Spyplanes please. >_>"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird

[dim lodge]

in 1v1 this is true, 8v8 that is a very different matter though, and the size of map means that even all else equal, you can't have all that in the places they might be trying to run by

[cobalt moth]

I fail to see the distinction

[dim lodge]

ease of lanes blurring, opponents with econ disparity, and plain map scale if nothing else

[cobalt moth]

which means that youre not the only one who can respond jesus christ

[dim lodge]

that one faction has a tool exceptionally good at being an economic ambassador, the other does not only not but also lacks the reactive tools to counter it, is an issue. labs are meant to be balanced in terms of ability, even if not mirror balance (which I want to avoid)
without the amphib on demon that's not true, and amphib demon was glass cannon by nature anyway

[dim lodge]

in theory yes. this is where I'd love to see replay analysis showing arm victory rates at game timings etc

[tardy sable]

ye true marauders are so op that we saw infinite marauders being made in Omega Series right

right? the units are so fast, theyre basically a bull with jaguar aa, faster than sprinter, they much be good and totally not stopped by t1 air units and spybots or mines.

its not like every t3 unit is an all in and marauder is the worst kind of all in unit from that lab, that will always find 0 value against decent players and set u behind eco and time and lose almost all tempo u cudve had with real units

[gray gazelle]

I didn't feel like I was playing against unfair units. Erebos is a good map for Marauder harass, there aren't many maps where they're so strong. I think units should have some maps at least they're strong on. I could have defended against them better but was playing 2v1 on my front so my capacity to do stuff was pretty much maxxed, and my play was definitely sloppy.

[sweet cedar]

marauders will never work against a decent team with coordinated defenses their only use is being able to pull off a sneaky attack to cripple enemy's eco but they're so easily retaliated by way lower-investment units like shuris abductors mines dgun coms and even ticks and you also donate all the metal to the enemy

[sweet cedar]

maras are very easily predictable especially on water maps and if you don't have sea control (which in this case you're already in a game losing position) you can easily set up a counter against the marauders if you're decent enough

personally i think marauders are mediocre units they're griefing and they only work very well on pub games

[dim lodge]

this is where 'average games' vs 'highest level games' differ wildly

[tulip mesa]

Clearly the solution here is to give Tremor guided retargetting rockets instead of plasma. >_>"

[dim lodge]

shipped

[sweet cedar]

then i guess u can just make tweak for casual players and everyone happy

[tardy sable]

at this rate just remove any complex unit whatsoever from the game so avg players dont have to bother trying to learn the game

[dim lodge]

I regularly see rauders rampaging around lobbies with well over average skill levels, even on maps without water entirely. I wouldn't even say they're complex units, just too many stats in one

what does tend to exist less in non-op lobbies is a lack of spontaneous teamwork, people play more like 8 1v1s than an 8v8, and that does manifest moreso with units that require immediate (or more usually, pre-) reactions

[stone mirage]

scouting helps a lot against them
they are strong but heavy commitment, beacuse they drop 60% wreck i don't think they are overwhelming strong
coop marauder is pretty crazy though cause it vastly increases the chances of finding a weak point

[alpine bronze]

Yudi all mentioned cheese solutions like d-gun, spam and abductor so I wonder what would happen if those reactive tools were not ez counters

[dim lodge]

backline scouting at that stage also rare in most lobbies tbh

[cobalt moth]

since you guys can't be convinced from a meaningful number people providing input just put it in your balance pack?

seems like a win-win

I haven't seen a single person who plays glitters complain about marauders, and glitters is most lobbies. I think you're just cherry picking the wacky noob hornet lobbies that you tend to play in

[dim lodge]

0/10 are you even trolling

[cobalt moth]

I don't even need to, you do it to yourself

[dim lodge]

and how many of those are 'wacky noob lobbies'

oh wait, zero

and yes I play glitters too

and the rest, so moving right along with that

main reason I play strait lately is specific testing on a solved map, and it's also the only common map with sea play. rotation usually skips water maps unless I run them myself

[cobalt moth]

the numbers speak for themselves, you don't even have 10 wins on a single map other than supreme strait

[dim lodge]

there's no way that's accurate, I've played vastly more than that. cape violet alone is like a quarter of what it should be, the others likely off by same factor

[cobalt moth]

all im asking is that you give a bit more weight to the people with more experience than you who are telling you that "marauders aren't unfair" "marauders are mediocre" "marauders were not spammed in tournament"

[dim lodge]

in the games they play I'm sure they're most likely correct
as Yudi just said, they only work very well on pub games

[cobalt moth]

and the games that noobs play are not meaningful data for balancing because people tend to play incorrectly

[dim lodge]

where 'noob' means >95% of player base, apparently
the game is not made for the absolute top percentiles only, and in fact doing so is a very good way to kill it off

[cobalt moth]

the majority of the playerbase only plays singleplayer

[dim lodge]

or PvE, yes
even within the multiplayer subset though, there's a trend to discount the experiences most players have. I have no interest in warping the game just to suit them, but there are a great many things that are issues at different strata and could be nondestructively addressed

[cobalt moth]

I dont know what does and doesnt kill a game off but i'd be surprised if that's even in the top 100 reasons

Surely competition from other games is what really kills a playerbase

[alpine bronze]

It goes hand in hand? Displeasing players is going to make them more willing to swap into games that act as competition?

[cobalt moth]

Probably part of it but the grass is always greener

[stone mirage]

marauder more for open map or even better, amphib map

[cobalt moth]

maybe I should just start posting replays of mid os games where marauders are used extensively and they don't have op impact https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=821ec86678b9028bcc945ed4f1dfb7d4

[stone mirage]

it's good for finding breakthrough,the earlier usually they are exponentially better, so in games where a high os gets to afk to marauders usually pretty good.
they are not good if every lane is porced up or there is tons of standing army everywhere already

also they are underrated mobile defence (ie. defending 2-3 lanes over)
they crush most pushes that are not starlight pushes or insane mass tiger

[alpine bronze]

I wonder how the mara push gets dealt with I hope its not the usual xD

[stone mirage]

oh wait that was the game that just happened

so towns opens with 2 fusion marauders, hitting midline at 17:48
at that point lovish has 4 fusion and just finished gantry

they get cleaned up by 20 banshees and lovish tricking marauders on one side
on the other side, bonte has a large t2 army with sheldons and fiends covering his lane, so they don't find much of an opening

so basically, on a lane map plp generally have decent sized armies covering the map. there's significant time to make gantry and marauders (bp heavy), so if it's an even game with no obvious openings you don't want to be the first person to make marauders
it's more if you have an advantage or can gang a side / exploit a noob to reach backline
In that sense, jags/fiend twitcher gaming is similiar

after that, lovish's 8 marauders get defended by 5-7 marauders and a ball of ticks
cause towns stopped following the marauders lovish could have gotten through esp with an air scout and juno to kill the ticks

marauder MUCH stronger on amphib map with islands or wide coast where it's not economical to cover it all with army or porc

[alpine bronze]

Still lots of spam involved, Banshee spam was cool tho and seems to show that banshee are balanced

[stone mirage]

i mean tick/abductor the best OP answers to marauder
mass shruiken too. tumbleweed / spybot probably the best fair answer
oh and mines
im not sure it proves banshees are not bad

[alpine bronze]

But ye other than that there was counter maras which is interesting- the t2 gunship should still be better than banshee tho

[stone mirage]

against mass spammer i think you just setup a razor push
yeah jags super op

[cobalt moth]

or jags, pounders, tremor, centurion, welder, sumo, etc

[alpine bronze]

rly? Well against spam sure but if amphib thats no option

[stone mirage]

jags are the king of the spam meta. i mean tigers can beat them if the map is flat and you can get tigers to cover the map
jag just a much lighter commitment, high impact and doesn't take dmg from spam

a lot more work to stop marauders with cortex tho

[tardy sable]

hes not even wrong, glitter is most of the multiplayer base

well either u balance according to most popular playerbase or u balance around the fact that BAR trailer says "over 200 epic maps"

but people seem to be just balancing around strait which makes 0 sense

[tardy sable]

u can literally counter marauders with ticks its not hard

how r these "cheesy" counters

literally most of the game is played around dgun and spam, later stages are about air superiority in most maps

idk maybe instead of balancing around ur 20os strait gameplay or around "average players" maybe u balance around tourneys and what units are fun/anti fun for example current tremor

how r u even supposed to know what is fun or antifun for most players when ur hard stuck playing strait with 200 tweaks

[stone mirage]

i mean many woudl say tick is a broken ass unit, what if you are playing cor or legion?

abductor is also absurdly op. so op it also happens to counter marauder without air superiority, along aside most t2 and t3

[tardy sable]

legion isnt real its not done, its not released, it wont be released until much later by the looks of it. for Core its just shuriken

[stone mirage]

another stupidly OP unit. well if they make 50 shruikens hopefully you can contest air, or you send 15 plats with the marauders

[tardy sable]

theres like 10 ways to counter marauders per faction and all of them are cheaper than marauder itself

[stone mirage]

i don't think marauder is OP esp on land map in current game. BUT you have to recognize that some of the popular counters are just broken OP units, plp are so used to playing with them they don't realize how bad they are for the game.

[tardy sable]

there was not a single marauder coop in 5v5 its just an easily counterable unit that only gets any dmg done bcz 90% of the playerbase is playing with 10apm

[stone mirage]

uh it can be good just plp are busy doing faster plays like t1 bombing and nuke bomber. why make marauders when they are useless without air control (abductor)
or straight push with starlight or shiva

[tardy sable]

no ppl are busy being afk is the general sense of this game, thats why glitter n strait are the top maps

[stone mirage]

you need juno to marauder coop otherwise they just spam lol ticks
well i won't disagree on the average skill level in those lobbies
marauder is a lot stronger on amphib map tho
marauder+double air or plats, and juno to clear mines and ticks

[tardy sable]

i just disagree its lowskill unit that wouldnt get much value if players started trying to play the game

[cobalt moth]

why do people complain about unit spam when the defining feature of this entire subgenre of games is an exponentially scaling economy

if you want to reduce the impact of unit spam just remove the ability to assist labs

[tardy sable]

they just dont know how to support units and just 1 clik lose everything to spam and complain about it

[cobalt moth]

fuck it, throw that one in the balance pack too, it's already a different game

[stone mirage]

just remove t2/t3 units and you can play spam vs spam if you like spam that much

personally, this is just me, i dislike how spam answers 80% of things, spam is fast (don't care so much about good positioning), disposable (don't care much throwing it away and leaving wrecks), and ez to tech to (doesn't have commitment/vunerability phase while teching)
and how it's generally easier to be a spam lord then it is to babysit real t2 armies (screen + long range, spybot threat, maybe you have t2 rockets, aa, etc)
Why is t1/t2 cor veh's not so popular? because it's vunerable and super micro heavy

[alpine bronze]

The cor vehicles are underpowered mostly is the issue ive noticed

[stone mirage]

even if the power level was adjusted it still would be super micro heavy. don't wanna get those expensive vehicles surrounded by spam or spybotted

[cobalt moth]

i think cor's t2 antispam units like sumo and salamander should have better anti-spam features, maybe +30% rate of fire, -30% burst to keep dps the same but better deal with scouts

[tardy sable]

sumo is fine vs spam

[cobalt moth]

i always thought that until i saw a video from @stone mirage showing sumos losing hard to tics metal for metal
but my ingame experience is that theyre fine vs spam

i guess to make metal for metal tics vs sumo u need multiple labs and infinite bp

[tardy sable]

u wont have metal : metal against sumos anyway, it costs too much BP on ticks

[dull holly]

I agree with that honestly

Raiding units should have EMP resistance as a tendency, but no AA of their own

[stone mirage]

yeah jag aa should be turned into emp resist. Plats I think are okay, because they are a jack of all trades flex unit.

[stone mirage]

2.1/43 vs 4.4/60 drain
You need more bp but sumos also take minutes longer to walk anywhere important

and if you kill it you get wreck

the investment in BP is useful for other stuff like wind spamming and reacting quickly with defenses. Quite a few players make a living from spamming winds + ticks as needed

mass ticks ig you have to be slightly careful to not run them into real splash, if you're trying to use them to kill sumos etc

[lost light]

Please be precise:
Ticks...

Core spam can't stop it. Grunts are slower than Maras and Rascals are Rascals...

[alpine bronze]

U want me to specify what spam works? Its basically just pawns and ticks I guess

[lost light]

I just meant that Core has no spam to stop Maras.

[alpine bronze]

RIP cor I guess xD

[solid dove]

Idk Hornet probably don't really want his pack into the game or else he would try to not have very suspect changes in it that discredit all his good work.
It's fine thinking the game should be balanced for people that can't play the game ect...
but good players will always have the last word coz they will just abuse the broken changes that will then make the game unplayable and in time the noobs will copy the easiest stuff to do.
There isn't much logic behind all of this

[sweet cedar]

Marauders are not complex units, they are very easy to use, just click a raiding route, go downstairs to make a coffee

[sweet cedar]

The problem with having problems in wacky noob lobbies is, most lobbies are wacky noob lobbies, and, if the game goes on steam, pretty much all of them will be

[dim lodge]

perhaps if the supposed good players would test the pack then some of the outliers could be identified

[sweet cedar]

What's the source for the majority only playing single player?

[dim lodge]

what you might be seeing are some placeholder changes, or things substituting for changes not yet present. eg maras dps being nerfed, is partly because they're countered by shuri and ticks, and both of those are due nerfs. OP to counter OP is not the way.

[dim lodge]

note that the pack has been tested heavily with a large range of players, and the ones mostly flinging shit at it, are the ones who don't actually test the pack anyway
if you want to opt out of progress that's fine, but could you at least do it quietly

most RTS players in general are single player, then it's co-op and PvE

[sweet cedar]

I'm just salty as in my last ATG game I had about 12k of units and defences around the enemy's geo in the canyon that got wiped by 12k of marauders, only taking out a few of the. Marauders aren't just for raiding, they are also the best units for mobile defence against raids after ticks, as they have a huge amount of DPS for their cost, are faster than any possible raiding units, and easily surround enemy armies to get flanking damage.

Marauders are like T3 ticks.

[sweet cedar]

Only being countered by the most OP unit in the game is not good game design. Also, what do you do as a core player? You have no counters to marauders at all.

[sweet cedar]

20OS is not average, it's around the 75th percentile; 15OS is the median.

[sweet cedar]

EMP resistance would remove 2/3 counters to marauders, leaving just ticks. Once thoseget nerfed, there will be zero counters!

[dull holly]

Gunships would work better, and EMP resistance doesn't mean EMP immunity

[solid dove]

demons were in the extended pack for like 2 or 3 months, no one was abusing them, everyone was playing like normal
then the next day it went into the main game the abuse started happening and many nerf were then needed

Idk why it works like that in BAR but real testing only happen when the units/changes are in main game

[dim lodge]

it's partly kneejerk reaction to 'new toys', also not always giving time for counter metas to develop. OG demons might even be fine these days given how people have realised they have glass jaws

[tardy sable]

og demons couldnt kill 1 tick

[dim lodge]

before I redid the flame mechanic you mean?

[tardy sable]

ye that was the og demon, anyways marauders are dogshit unit and doesnt need nerf

[dim lodge]

in toppest percentile play that might well be true, but that doesn't mean the unit design is optimal
if anything the design of a unit with that wide a degree of efficiency gain should be scrutinised moreso

[tardy sable]

asoufbasoidnha
^is my honest reaction

[sweet cedar]

when you have speed 95, it might as well do

[stiff pagoda]

Best counter to marauder is mines

[tardy sable]

u can also just kill marauders with t2 gunships they have t1 aa it doesnt do anything

[lost light]

I might be mistaken, but killing a fast unit takes time. And fast units that are running into your backline hurts.
There might be a reason why abductors are used for fast T3 as a counter by the best players.
I haven't seen an effective counterplay with gunships against Marauders in a long time. Abductors and Leeches work fine on the other hand.

And the mentioning of mines is just hilarious. Sure they kill stuff. But in my life mind it is more work to set up a mine field everywhere than building a Juno and shooting it... Or just tick spam the minefield.

[west bramble]

Honestly sometimes you’re not in a position to counter marauders because you:

1. Are too far
2. Don’t have bp or metal to do a quick air swap
3. Didn’t make porc in the right places

The fact is sometimes people can make good plays that go unpunished because of no scouting. Sometimes you can’t save your teammate halfway across the map and that’s ok, it’s an 8v8, people should be allowed to make good plays and win off them lmao

[sweet cedar]

Shame mines can be junoed

[stiff pagoda]

I keep hearing that argument but still dont see ppl juno shore before landing maras

[old hollow]

Should we remove bombers because new players don't know about AA before they get bombed? No, because that's a stupid fucking argument that goes against the core of RTS.

Do you add aim-assist for bad players in FPS because they're losing to more practiced players? No, because that'd be just as dumb.

You're trying to lower the skill level of the game, instead of trying to raise the skill of players. Literally trying to remove the core tenant of RTS improvement.

Half these balance threads are one map wonders complaining that a unit is performing well on the map it's designed for. Holy shit marauders are decent for amphibious raiding? Their primary use case? I'm fucking shocked. In other news, boats are good on sea, more news at 11.

The entire point of playing RTS is to think about units strategically, and to think and develop counters and interesting play styles. Are some units harder to use than others? Sure, it's a skill that players can practice and develop. You know what I did the first time Austin rolled me by spamming bedbugs? It sure as fuck wasn't to come here and ask for bed bugs nerfs. It was to watch the replay and see what he did and to think of how to counter it.

Like 95% of players just need to try to replicate what they saw and then they'll learn the counters. Let's encourage that. MBT tick spammed me to death once, and the next game I tried it back against him, only to discover that Junos are a unit.

That's fun, that's learning, development, and it's what makes BAR an awesome RTS. As a player it's far more rewarding to learn and practice how to use a niche unit than it is to see unit complexity flattened.

[stiff pagoda]

Thats typical for games where devs already forgot about their game, no patches means you have to overcome obstacles with what you have.

Sadly its easier to nerf/buff a unit rather than having this mindset of working with what you got.

[stone mirage]

T2 walls if it's a narrow space. mines spread out so takes multiple juno. sumo, mammoth, even like mass twinguard spam can work if its a predictable choke

marauders strong esp if you using cortex and putting aside the utterly broken units ticks and abductors. but they are not broken. they are meant to gangbang weaknesses, which makes them strong when ahead or in mix skill lobbies

they require actual commitment, can be scouted, making the first t3 lab is an eco hit. kinda funny but later marauders counter marauders
Though on large amphib maps it's basically: why bother with the hard work counters when air is the easiest counter while simutaenously being the msot powerful offensively
and the same large amphib maps make them have some travel time which means some time for scouting / more time before the investment pays off

[dim lodge]

You're trying to lower the skill level of the game, instead of trying to raise the skill of players.
false, at most we're looking at lowering the skill floor for basic unit competency, without affecting top level ideally.

and as ever, 'git gud' to the level of the top 1% of the playerbase, before the game stops being a lopsided mess (according to only some of said players and not all in the same way), is not an answer.

[stone mirage]

yeah they do trade well into a lot of t2 or even some t3 when flanking, their dps could be nerfed slightly. but if you over nerf them plp will just rarely make them unless as a finisher. since they drop 60% metal wreck all raiders/t3 have to be strong

[dim lodge]

there might be an argument for making rauders lower metal cost but much higher energy cost, same for shivas, prevents dumping as much metal. in an ideal world all amphibs (and hovers) could have same, but that requires a lot of estorage or production to prevent stalling on builds
but that doesn't solve the 'return to sender' problem from rezbots, naturally

[stone mirage]

if they mass marauder that's more vunerable to splash defenses or you should have razors
marauders do alreayd have higher bp cost then main t3 combat units which makes sense since they walk faster

honestly on rotato large map or 5v5 i see fiend twitcher sharing being a very strong strat
yeah it can be countered with jag sharing and good micro but that requires some coordination and micro by multiple team members. it's easier to be agresssor, and fiends have better pay off if they do break through (make figs to kill shruikens)

[sweet cedar]

Marauders are a meme/cheese unit, not a niche unit!

The argument is whether a particular unit like bombers are too fast, and has nothing to do with skill level. If Arm bombers were four times as fast as they currently are, would skilled players be able to counter them? Yes. Would they be OP? Also Yes. The argument is whether Marauders are already OP at their current speed.

[stiff pagoda]

Depends on map, if its narrow no, wide open maps maybe. Its where speed shines

[cobalt moth]

Git gud is actually is a perfectly reasonable answer when the underlying message isn’t “you’re bad” and is instead actually just people telling you how to improve and in this case specifically counter marauders.

I’m sorry you’re so butthurt into deluding yourself that everyone who “has an answer” is “part of the 1%” but the truth is that the “1%” you speak of is actually more like the 80th percentile, i.e. the top 20% skill level, and that group of people are the most dedicated group of players in the game

[stone mirage]

whats the top 20%

[cobalt moth]

It’s an OS level close everyone above 25 OS, ie if you’re 25 OS or above you’re in the top 20% of OS

Top 1% is probably 45 OS+ and that’s not representative of all the people providing feedback

Discounting feedback because someone has played the game more than you is just self serving

[craggy oxide]

@cobalt moth I would rather say, it’s players who actively try to use the tools of bar and try to learn how to use such tools. The rest of this post is not aimed at you

Bar isn’t meant to be an automatic game (that’s zk)
Changing bar into being more of that is something a lot of people have issues with.

[cobalt moth]

Right Drivver - there’s no meaningful distinction based on OS level or percentile skill level or what have you that informs whether your perspective is “too elite to apply to the common man”.
But that is what is being implied, and is what I have issue with.

I agree with you that good players try to use the tools of the game and learn to use them

[craggy oxide]

Shafting the top players for balance issues at the bottom of the player base isn’t a solution ever
There will always be degenerative balance at some skill level. Sometimes you just have to go far down the bucket to find such cases

[nimble kite]

Personally I feel like Shiva is already pretty well priced. I feel they're actually pretty cheap metal wise for what you get, it's just the t3 lab tax that hurts initially.

And shifting more cost to e would make them insanely value on wind maps.

[sweet cedar]

Just checked the stats, average Match Rating from replays data of all 8vs8 games in June 2024. Match Rating 20 is 80th percentile, 25 is 91st percentile, 30 is 96th percentile. 99th percentile is 39. Median is 15.7.

[stone mirage]

so 20os is the best player out of your casual friend group, 30 is your invested player, 40 is top 12-15% of those invested players

[sharp basin]

Speaks for all RTS gamers tbh

[sweet cedar]

More details for the fact fans. Note that this is for June 2024, when was the OS reset? There might have been lots of movement since then, for example Tsirya has increased his OS from 30 to 40, mainly by grinding ATG AFAIK 😄

[sweet cedar]

I guess in that case, at least 97.5% of pllayers are noobs

BTW how did this thread go from Tremors are UP to Marauders are OP? Is there another thread for that?

[old hollow]

I mean, in everything I play watch (primarily 20 OS+ 5v5 - 8v8), maras aren't considered oppressive. We see way more razors/shivas. Are maras good raiders? Sure, especially if you can abuse their speed on something like Flats, or amphib on Strait. So that's when you make them.

If we go back through the Omega Series vods for example, we aren't going to see that many Maras, other T3 is more common. Which to me means that they aren't OP, and are niche units. I don't think I've heard anyone else call them cheese/meme units.

[old hollow]

We aren't standing to side laughing and saying "get good". We're saying: "The tools exist, use them."

[dim lodge]

and we're not saying they don't exist - but that the effort to use either A: requires much more effort/preprepardness vs a 'what if' than using the rauders does, or B: that the tools are overpowered (and/or exclusively armada units)

[solid dove]

Don't make the video game bad please, thx

[stiff pagoda]

Marauders only real strength is its speed and light aa vs shuris, being able to amfib makes it more useful on some maps. And the disadvantage of being a single target killer compared to its equivalent Bull which has huge aoe, same hp, same cost, no aa, slower.

If you were to run a raid on say glitters you might very well use bulls to get op dmg/aoe and add some aa units vs shuris. This saves you a whole 8k metal on skipping gantry.

T3s should be more difficult to kill and require some preparation/scouting/anticipation.

Imo maras are not difficult to kill, single commander at the presumed raid location makes short work of it. But if you try to fight maras with inferior units its a game knowledge issue, not a balance issue. Plenty counters to maras.

[stone mirage]

marauder trades well with small amounts of other units for cost, it's a pretty good duelist

[dim lodge]

it doesn't scale to blobs, but in moderate amounts it's pretty good, especially when it can abuse speed to flank easily

[sweet cedar]

They are known as Memerauders

[old hollow]

What is so hard about mining the shores, having abductors/shuris/ spamming ticks? You make it sounds like it's some 50 OS 20k APM endeavor.

[graceful elbow]

Marauders I feel really shine on maps other than atg or ss
Which brings you back to the problem of x unit being op on this map and y unit being underpowered

[old hollow]

Isn't that the point of unit diversity ?

[graceful elbow]

Unit diversity? Don't know him

[graceful elbow]

That sounds like you just died one too many times and instead of saying
Hmmmm how can I learn and improve you instead say
The systems out to get me!

[stiff pagoda]

A meme unit is a unit that is easy to kill right? In that sense maras should have a buff rather than speed nerf

[graceful elbow]

For example on ss how do you stop marauders?
Well they sure as hell aren't going through mid
So you only have to wory about the shores

If your in geo spot
Keep a spybot or 2 by your base and place heavy mines
If you control the sea ask for seaplayer to place lots of radar

If your air go shuri or stilettos and gunships
Heck even a nuke bomber works

In eco why not make your own marauders

If your front then that's not your job

Pretty much every role has a valid counter that's resource efficient to deal with marauders

[graceful elbow]

He's just calling it a meme unit because he doesn't like it
But it's also not op and he has to file his grievance somehow

[stiff pagoda]

Going gantry to get maras just to raid shore is a throw because you could have had 8+ Bulls attacking choke instead and win.

Instead you are gambling there isnt a dgun on shore.

[graceful elbow]

Marauders need aa because there too dam fast for other aa to catch up without aa they become useless for raids nomatter skill level

Same goes with platypus

Ducks don't get aa because they get torp

And titans are already emp resistant and can use their gun to smack at gunships ok

[sweet cedar]

So it turns out the "loads of units" that can counter Memerauders are actually only the 3 most OP units in the game.

If, as in most games, you don't have a very good air player, you probably won't have enough EMP aircraft by the time the raid comes.

Ticks are majorly OP and will be nerfed soon.

[sweet cedar]

They're a meme because they're so good that people go Arm specifically to make Marauders

[stable summit]

So, this thread seems to have drifted a fair bit from the topic of Tremor balance.

Its OK to bring up other units and subjects in order to augment your argument, but if you do so then it should tie back to how Tremors could be improved/buffed/nerfed; think "We should change the tremor's range because ticks are too fast", not "ticks are too fast". Alright?

[sweet cedar]

There is a thread about OP Marauders, a year and a half on, they haven't been nerfed, so I guess the long-standing policy of not nerfing Arm units will continue 😄 https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1096847232520687626

[stiff pagoda]

indeed, can some reiterate what the issue with tremor is 🙂 , how is it not good in its current state?

[stone mirage]

the easiest answers are the problematic units. ticks/abductors
mines good but not reliable against a good team w/ juno

[tardy sable]

stilletos were nerfed, shellshocker was nerfed, abductor nerf is in release candidate
meanwhile core has been buffed with shiva kargenath demon addition/changes

marauders so op and so problematic that not a single fucking team made it in 5v5 tourney, SUCH A GOOD UNIT

[cobalt moth]

Tremors are actually pretty great now

I think it’s a bit too early to say whether they’re op or not, mostly because people aren’t yet properly countering them. merl + jammer works pretty well, and low key one of the counters to tremor is to make Afus

[solid dove]

High risk of getting banned from Glitters lobby is you make afus against a tremor op

[sweet cedar]

Which tourney? See my post above about PRO_rANDY not being able to counter a marauder raid despite having his commander, bulls and razorbacks to hand in the recent tournament final game. #1181233310249267293 message

[sweet cedar]

You mean just build an AFUS next to the tremor and self-destruct it?

[tardy sable]

the pic u posted shows it getting no value except some nanos + its the 1 strait lobster team so ofc theyre the one making it

[cobalt moth]

I feel like your also ignoring what Andy said about the situation:

I didn't feel like I was playing against unfair units. Erebos is a good map for Marauder harass, there aren't many maps where they're so strong. I think units should have some maps at least they're strong on. I could have defended against them better but was playing 2v1 on my front so my capacity to do stuff was pretty much maxxed, and my play was definitely sloppy.

[sweet cedar]

I didn't see what Andy said, thanks for highlighting. I was pointing out that your claim that not a single team made Marauders was incorrect.

[graceful elbow]

average disgruntled core player

if arm is so god dam op
then why doesnt everyone just play arm?
people play arm and core at a 50 50 ratio
stop making everything about arm being so op that you cant ever win

[alpine bronze]

there is room for improvement

[tulip mesa]

In my experience, most players do just play arm, lol. Usually it's like 6-7 Arm players with 1 Cor air player per team. xD

[west bramble]

I hate this argument whenever it comes up because there’s so much context needed when it comes to picking arm vs core.

Reasons to pick core:
Air
Sea
Solar map
I want to tzar rush / spam tremors

Reasons to pick arm:
Wind map
I need to make Janus to bully noobs and win game fast (all glitters frontlines rn)
I need to make ticks to bully noobs even faster (flats)

99% of the time these are the only considerations when it comes to picking factions (when picking based on gameplay not aesthetics). Honestly even some of these reasons shouldnt be the case in optimal play since it’s so easy to share cons around

[graceful elbow]

I've seen the opposite
All my friends play core because of the big strong units
I'm not too sure if they play core because they think it's better or because they play core

[tulip mesa]

i just pick Cor because of arbitrary tribalism, and i like their aesthetics better

[graceful elbow]

Arbitrary tribalism is the way to go

Tbf if your a cor main and swap to arm suddenly your gonna be worse even if arm has better units and vice versa

[stiff pagoda]

This is the sensible approach if Arm has equal strength in T1 because the better economy (winds) and if you really need cor units you just ask for conbot from your single cor player that is making op shuris and op fiends in T2

[stable summit]

Well, this thread went off-topic again quickly 😑

Please keep your posts at least somewhat related to Tremors and the balance thereof.

I really don't want to have to start handing out warnings for otherwise-productive posts that had the misfortunate of being made in an off-topic thread, but if its needed then its needed... if anyone wants to continue the discussion about COR/ARM balance changes or opinions, please feel free to either use another (relevant!) thread in #suggestions , or create one if none of the existing threads appear to be relevant.

(Providing a link to a relevant thread where discussion can be moved is also fine)

[alpine bronze]

Im not sure what the idea was for reducing tremor reloadtime, makes it more of a glass cannon in design which is armada style

[stone mirage]

yeah that's a huge buff hmmmmm

[lost light]

well we can talk about "Tremor OP" ( 🤣 ) as soon as it gets build more often than gauntlets.

until then, the Tremor is halfway useful, now. A MUCH needed buff to CORE T2 veh. Now this lab exists of a unit more.

[cobalt moth]

I for one hail our new tremor overlords

[graceful elbow]

tremor op
needs nerf
/j

[tulip mesa]

I highly recommend binding SET TARGET and CLEAR TARGET to something super easy to access. Default is annoying. I have mine on mouse side-buttons (with mouse macro).

[cobalt moth]

Idk why set target isn’t RMB by default.

[tulip mesa]

If you're using the default binds (alt+y or some shet), you're a chump. You're bringing a muzzleloader against machineguns. You're wearing bowling shoes to run a marathon.

[lost light]

I don't know why you don't change it in the settings 😄

[cobalt moth]

i changed it a year ago?

[lost light]

then the answer is:
Because noobs would not understand, why the units aren't moving towards their target

[cobalt moth]

it creates a false pretense that attacking units is good micro

whereas moving units into attack range is good micro and fight move / attack unit is generally really bad
it's basically noob tax

no need to gate it behind a non-obvious setting, just teach them how to be good from the start rather than making it behave more like other RTS and in the process handicapping them without them even knowing

[lost light]

I know, where you are coming from, but BAR is easily one of the games that needs the player to actively learn much more stuff than others... adding another layer would not make it easier.
Open a suggestion, if you want to.

[cobalt moth]

there should be a tutorial mission where you're given 5 shivas and have to kill a stream of tics + mousers

[sweet cedar]

Tutorials could help with a lot of things. Shivas versus ticks will be the final boss challenge!

[lost light]

feel free to create a separate suggestion and or tutorial.
Many good things come from ppl that are just frustrated with the current situation.
And I am 100% serious here. If you are pissed off enough, that can really be a great source of motivation.

[sweet cedar]

So is Tremor OP now or what? Been seeing tremor pushes used alot and they seem to act like 1.8k metal arty, flattening everything it sees

[lost light]

Great
So now there is a reason to Play T2 CORE veh?
Or is T2 CORE veh still a meme in high OS lobbies?

[dim lodge]

it's still 'new toy' stage, and people aren't reacting to the new tremors properly yet
on choke maps with safe eco they can be potent, which is exactly what you'd expect

[old hollow]

The issue is how do you react? Like launchers, Tremor firing arc makes them immune to so many counters. They can shoot over cliffs while being immune to arbs/ambass/tact nuke/emp launchers. I'm sure there will be a better solution, but literally had to liche them, because it was impossible to push into terrain with them firing overheard

[dim lodge]

would tremors before have been just as tricky, but just not used as much?
some maps if you get a tremor in the right place they're tricky sods, but that's sort of the whole point of the unit

[old hollow]

I feel like after changes they feel better. Whenever I tried to use tremors before they felt giga memey, but I've actually had more success with them recently.

[lost light]

Yay we made it useful!

[dim lodge]

they are situationally competent now hopefully, which is what you'd expect from a 2K metal unit

[tulip mesa]

They are almost twice as potent in their area of effect, now.

Higher raw dps + more focused = compounded gains. It was a huge huge buff

[lost light]

For long range, yes.

I still don't see them as often as Starlights.

That shows you how bad they were.

They are useful now, nothing more

[dim lodge]

the two changes did compound more than the sum of their parts, yes, which wasn't fully expected - but that they're still not generally OP even considering that, shows how undercooked they were to start with
some maps do make them maybe too effective, but that's somewhat a map issue, eg safe ecos and chokes/narrow fronts, which I'm keeping an eye on

[old hollow]

I think they'll see more use than you realize. It doesn't need to be a choke, anywhere that has porc is a great target for a tremor

[lost light]

If a small meta change, with less porc, is triggered by this, is that a bad thing?

[old hollow]

I highly doubt it'll affect meta

[lost light]

So it can't be OP 😉

[dim lodge]

it's a nutcracker unit, that means it's competent. note that say a pulsar can just turn off and nano the tremor into ignorability, also
I am keeping an eye on it, but I'm also not seeing people reacting too well to them yet either, mostly
if people react well and they still get too much value then absolutely, I'll look at it again

[cobalt moth]

I find recluse to be a good counter to tremor in chokes because they can attack from an angle and their projectiles move faster than the tremor can reposition (unlike say banisher or bull which can strafe recluse pretty easily)

[solid dove]

When you have several op players saying tremor op the first game they see them, there is strong chances it will show in meta later, just like it's already been the case in glitters and will be in other maps if op lobby ever comes back to life.
Tremor gonna be like mausers but much worse coz it destroy absolutely everything, including rattlesnake spam, pulsar, defensive nanos trying to heal for example a rattle or pulsar that used to be able to counter the mausers. Even 1 bubble/shield lose power super fast coz the dmg was very overtuned

[lost light]

Let's see if this really holds true.

One "small" difference is speed.
And good players tend to use this.

You just can't be in two places with a Tremor. And you can't switch targets in a timely manner. That alone makes it easier to counter than you might think.

The counter being: just ignore the area it is shouting at. Show the enemy a scout radar dot to shoot at aaaand: attack elsewhere. The Tremor won't catch up, I promise!

[stone mirage]

the biggest difference is throughput, if starlight did 40% less dmg it would be pretty bad

[sweet cedar]

2 tremors delete a porced position in 2 seconds

[lost light]

given the fact that their projectiles are 10 seconds in the air before the hit the ground this is impossible.

But 2 starlights can actually delete 2 hlts and a t2 arty in 10 secs...
4 will do more...

[hardy raft]

Ive been saying tremor meta will be true malaria gameplay and on glitters you can sometimes see it unfold already. Tremor doesnt need more, its perfectly fine as it is right now

Some units are fun only when they arent always made. Would be a shame to lose tremor,but even bigger shame to always fight it. Gives out Swarmhost vibes from starcraft

[lost light]

We made it, the Tremor is useful, now!

[dim lodge]

glitters might as well be called 'tremor: the map' remember though, it's pretty much ideal for it
that tremors are being used there (and not yet countered properly) shows the unit is working as it should be

[stone mirage]

plasma artillery units are cancer when combined with mount everest cliffs

[hardy raft]

True but glitters is here to stay so even if only glitters is infested with tremors, thats already too much. Its perfect now, you dont see it every game but quite frequently

[stone mirage]

well vanguards were also pretty cancer
their problem 😉

[sudden cedar]

I've seen Tremors find decent niche uses on Isthmus quite a lot in the past few weeks; i'd say they certainly have there place now in response to certain unit compositions / situations 🙂

[lost light]

Isthmus is another example for a perfect Tremor map. It has a single, narrow lane through which 5 players are pushing.

That means that "go around" is not an easy option. In this case you need to give up ground, build eco for the time they take to roll forward and to kill a "small" area, then build units, then let them come and kill them at the front geo pos where you have more surface area.

[sudden cedar]

This was a surprisingly effective/funny one - defending the far side of the choke

[stone mirage]

did they actually straight buff it's dps by 25%?
u know you just go air and bomb them

[steel pier]

by 20

[stone mirage]

reload time -20% is 25% more dps tho
that's fking crazy that they'd straight buff a very niche but potentially good unit by 25%, as well as giving it better focus at max range

[steel pier]

it says right there 20%

[dim lodge]

meme unit in most cases, that's a load-bearing 'potentially' you have there
and in the cases it is the ideal tool, it definitely should be shining

that said I am keeping a close eye on it, especially on the ideal maps

[stone mirage]

the farthest range unit with good throughput should be the most conditional
anyways I haven't personally played against it, just surprised they would buff the raw throughput so much

meanwhile banisher dying in a ditch

[dim lodge]

it went from advisory 'please leave the area at your leisure, or not, up to you' to 'you really don't want to be standing here'

[dim lodge]

one step at at time, as you know, I'm highly aware of such things

[sweet cedar]

Yeah and you don't see it coming until your base is gone, starlights you will know are there when the laser impacts, 2 tremors with jammer and cover will make an entire FoB disappear in seconds along with all the other units

[lost light]

and these 2 slow units that cost as much as a fusion that were kept secret and hidden and were protected and took ages to get to the front do stuff?
Wow.
Looks like the metal and effort now is worth it.

please read this:
#1181233310249267293 message

[versed glacier]

tell me please what is cost effective way to beat 1500 range unit xD
at about 12 minute mark too
You must be much better player than me, cause I cant find how

[dim lodge]

on glitters?

[versed glacier]

any map

[sweet cedar]

Gunships, killing their support units, flanking, if u just try to artillery duel vs tremor ur fucked

[dim lodge]

usually, go around it, do basically anything before it gets there. if it's eco porc map like glitters things are harder, it's ideal map for it. stealth rockets are ideal though, spybots always good, air if they didn't pay AA tax

[tardy sable]

Idk why tremor of all unit was buffed it's most low IQ brainrotten unit design

Tremor is dogshit vs porc btw

[versed glacier]

go around it when its shelling your base/porc line? If I want to lose the game sure makes sense, what if I want to win it tho?

[dim lodge]

if it's just shelling your porc you have 2-3 business weeks to mount a response

[tardy sable]

"going around" is map dependant

U may have a wide and long map, but on those maps frontline bases are optimal and tremors r good vs that

[sweet cedar]

Yeah maybe if we didn't all decide the omega rich choked flat porc map was the go-to this wouldn't be an issue

[tardy sable]

It's just a unit that should never be meant to be good, long range mobile units with low entity count shouldn't be good. Thats why mausers n Quakers got nerfed

It's high hp, low entity, long range, anti spam. Only counter is rattlesnake + nano bcz if someone makes 2-3 tremors their allies will obv come and help with the push

If enemies make a jugg, I cannot just counter it by making units that's only going to deal with jugg, I have to make antispam, porc that deals with other t2 units and pulsars to deal with jugg

It's not a 1v1 game u cannot counter X unit by simply doing the counterplay101 like an AI

[sweet cedar]

more stuff always beats more stuff bro, nothing can change that, if ur defending vs a coordinated 3man push alone, you're fucked regardless

[tardy sable]

U can usually halt the coordinated push solo with outplaying with 10 different things long enough that if ur team existed then theyd stop it

Certain units u cannot stall long enough against or even if u can, do u wanna load everygame and have enemy backliner throw 1 tremor in ur lane

[nimble kite]

Emp launcher/tac nuke one good counter.

It doesn't work if you position tremor behind for example the canyon hills on glitters but then the tremor only has a set area it can safely target and is susceptible if it moves from behind the mountain.

Persecutor/Rattle on high traj can hit it behind alot of hills too although it needs to be built jammed and slightly in range of tremor but tremor isn't great at targeting down specific porc like that especially if you use pop down repair if needed.

Spy bot/skuttle always an option too although not necessarily reliable to get off

For glitters hill example tremor is slow af too so spoders can potentially work depending on game state.

[lost light]

Isn't it beautiful?

Things are changing and there are always these few ppl who will cry.

The fact that this threat isn't overrun by 100 ppl tells a Story. ANY other unit getting buffed as much would be so OP, that it would tracked down by the whole player hood.

For this unit there are just a few single voices.

[sharp basin]

truth

[sharp basin]

Its fun to use

[cobalt moth]

it'll happen over time tho. I've been saying Tremor is extremely good since the day it was buffed - only Coura and I were talking about it then. Now 2 weeks later there's a handful of people. If it's truly really op there will be more than a dozen in another 2 weeks

I think the most difficult balance objection to overcome is that Good Tremor = Bad Gameplay

People aren't yet making pinpointers + merl + jammer tho
And one thing i noticed is recluse do a good job of countering on glitters

[lost light]

Of course a fast burst unit counters Tremors.

Let time evolve. OP recluses and Webbers vs "OP" Tremor. that is what one could call a good counterweight

[dim lodge]

shush, apparently I'm the only one saying people aren't reacting properly, stop turning people into liars, it's rude

(or are you not one of the people allowed opinions? maybe yours doesn't count, I lose track)

[dim lodge]

indeed, but this cycle is also why it's too early to really tell much. 'new toy' kneejerk -> diffusion -> meta jostle -> correct reactions discovered -> reaction diffusion -> stability

[nimble kite]

I liked tremor throughout all the iterations but this is the first time it's actually felt like it fufils it's promise as a unit and can be used more than 1/100 games to good effect.

I especially like that the dual fire modes were done away with.

[lost light]

It is so expensive!
Arm players often forget that it costs about 4 times more E than Starlights. It such a crazy upfront investment.

[tulip mesa]

Yeah getting rid of the duel fire mode was nice. Focus fire was mostly useless 99% of the time, and switching every new tremor to spread fire was annoying af apm tax.

[stone mirage]

well just give it some time people need to practice playing against it

[tardy sable]

Ah yes a shadowchange that was never mentioned in changes or was ever discussed with anyone to be buffed

A supposed "bugfix" that ended up buffing it's range and dps by a significant amount. Yeah let's test an unintentionally buffed unit bcz that's what the game is about now

These suggestion threads are so full of bullshit ideas and takes from 0 skill players its astonishing

[lost light]

Are you even aware that this version was playtested for months with the balance candidate pack?

It seems like this info was not available to you, yet. Perhaps you want to reconsider your toxic post.

[tardy sable]

I am being real it's not toxic. Me calling you dogshit at the game is not supposed to be an insult, it's supposed to invalidate your opinions about how the game works

When were changes to tremor in the balance candidate packs ever discussed? Most people know BCP to just be a abductor nerf with some other changes.

[lost light]

Which is highly toxic.

[tardy sable]

No where was the buff to tremor announced, it was a shadow change. Stop acting like everyone is gonna crawl through 500 comments and find someone talking abt the changes to it

How is calling a bad player, a bad player toxic? Maybe u feel bad about it but it is how it is. People with lowskill and game knowledge commenting on repeat about balancing is one of the main problem why most people don't come into these threads

[lost light]

Well that's NOT the problem of the devs.
If you are INTERESTED in stuff that changes, then be part of it.

OR be ready to not actively get asked if (you seemingly God like player that may invade anyone's opinion, magically) are ok with this change.

[tardy sable]

It's just full of noobs 20os or below having 400000 word essays and obviously they mean nothing it's not rocket science.

[lost light]

What is my os, mate? Do you know it?

[tardy sable]

No I'm just here to disrupt the 20os eco-chamber that's trying to change balance of the game I don't want to be a part of it.

[lost light]

Well

1. inform yourself
2. stfu until then.

And this is meant for the balance candidate pack and OS of players.

[tardy sable]

Why would I stop commenting when I see game trying to go to shit with these changes and the people supporting the changes are extremely dogshit players who I could beat with my feet on the mouse

[lost light]

Because you are wasting my time I have work to do, mate!

[tardy sable]

Ur the one wasting ur time no one is forcing you to make the game a shitshow

[stiff pagoda]

Can you prove game is currently a shitshow? Or is it just what you feel.

Tremor might have needed the buff for players to start using em, and now they might need nerf if deemed to strong. This is natural when you have so many available units to choose from that can be used in some way or form even though its seen as non-meta unit.

[tardy sable]

prove it to whom? no one here is a balance dev its just a bunch of noobs yapping

[stiff pagoda]

So only a balance dev gets to see proof of said opness? Does it even exist in a replay yet? If so it should be rather easy to find i guess.

[lost light]

If the Tremor feel OP it is an skill use, as with any other unit.

[stiff pagoda]

No not really, it could be op but there has to be proof, just saying its op doesnt make it so.

[lost light]

Jokes, aside: A dev is watching the Tremor closely and is here.

And once again:
We can talk about Tremors stronk!!!, as soon as it get's more use than a gauntlet, or T2 pop up arties

[stiff pagoda]

I do think tremor was fine with 0.5 reload time, dunno why it was buffed, but does it make it that much better? Doubtful. This has to be proven. If its later nerfed to 0.5 again and still plays the same well guess what, it was op already but noone used it.

Classic.

[tardy sable]

already have said 100 times its not about being tremor being overpowered, its just that these type of units being anywhere near "good" just promotes cancerous gameplay

[stiff pagoda]

So removing the unit completely is your fix, when would you ever use it then if its not good

[tardy sable]

the buffs were never meant to be buffs, it was a "bugfix" that ended up buffing it. rn its just buffed with 0 reason behind it

tremor fits a niche, it being good in general, or being too good for that niche is just bad game design

where the fuck is the buff stated

[craggy oxide]

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/pull/3531
im guessiung this is the relevant pr
i cannot be certain about that though

[wild sigil]

Ye thats the pr 99percent sure

Wonder if people will still enjoy tremor if it's meta for a month or two

[lost light]

let's see if it does become meta, first.

And once again:
We can talk about Tremors stronk!!!, as soon as it get's more use than a gauntlet, or T2 pop up arties

[tardy sable]

why do u have to wait something with an unintended overbuff to become meta first

its like giving titan +20%dps without mentioning it anywhere and saying wait for it to be meta first then we can nerf it. Like what is ur thought process

[lost light]

is it over buffed? prove it.

I think a 20% buff to titans would have already shaped the game very much.

[sweet cedar]

Just got tremored on ATG, can confirm it's now effective. But that's a good thing, it's supposed to be the strongest T2 unit.

[lost light]

looking at it's cost and the risk you are taking to get one, yes it should be powerful.

But being cost effective a few times per 100 games still doesn't make it OP.

[tardy sable]

WHERE THE FUCK IS THE BUFF IN CHANGELOGSSSSSSSSSS

[lost light]

If this is your problem, contact someone who can edit the change logs.

[elfin trellis]

https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/blob/master/changelog.txt

[median gate]

Anybody can contribute to BAR via Pull Requests. It is the main way you can contribute if you are technically minded (we have a bunch of non-technical things too).

If you make pull requests and want to keep making them; we'll give you contributor status, invite you to our super-awesome monthly internal meetings and you get access to the contributor section of the discord. Contributors also get perks like picking their own flag (including custom ones).

We're a very welcoming group of developers so feel free to ask questions and get support in contributing, we even have a special channel for it: #1077919764028080158.

[wild grove]

just played a game and someone used tremor well against sniper push was good job felt like good gameplay

[sharp basin]

Woah what is this?

[tulip mesa]

Yeah long range area denial is fun for setting on people, but it's really unfun to play against if it's too potent

[tulip mesa]

Atm I think Tremors are objectively better than static arties, lol. A lot more dps down range, at longer range, on a mobile platform.

[lost light]

My longtime goal.

[alpine bronze]

Looks hella clean tho, is it a widget?

[elfin trellis]

yes, with a new gui framework

[lost light]

It is.

Are other ppl workiing on the newndesign, too?

[elfin trellis]

I tried it out a bit, but it turns out that I am in no way a graphical designer.

[lost light]

😆 Welcome to the Club.

Luckiely enough, a new guy reached Out to me, he happens to be a graphical designer.

[tardy sable]

What's the 50% in middle? E conversion?

[sharp basin]

-People want an unit to be buffed
-Unit gets buffed
-People complain that its too OP
Game balancing in a nutshell

[lost light]

Usage of your BP.

[tardy sable]

I had some complaints about tremor but it wasn't regarding effectiveness it was regarding until design, and the change isn't even a transparent change. It's a random bugfix that just happened to buff it

[lost light]

Let's put grieve aside and play the game.

[tardy sable]

The symbol looks exactly like cortex t2 E converter it confused me

[lost light]

You are right, we will talk to the designer

[tardy sable]

Looks good overall

[lost light]

Old version:

But let's switch to the initial threat for the new top bar.

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1167027291440812063

One thing I want to add is a time until the metal storage is empty, when you build your afus this can be handy.

[old hollow]

No where, you are supposed to know telepathically

[nimble kite]

I agree this was poorly announced as a bug fix when it was much more but tbh this isn't the first time this has happened.

The Razor targeting fix massively buffed them, multiple unit hitbox fixes have resulted in units being better at firing over each other, etc.

I do personally think all balance changes would be best deployed using the release candidates pack for a month (with all things not intended to be pushed to main game in the very near future not included in the pack)

[lost light]

We are all human. It slipped through.
You can personally change it. The pull request is open.

Less hate and more "thanks for your work guys" would be appropriate.

[old hollow]

The main concern is that this isn't a one-off, it's the standard. We constantly experience unreported balance changes and don't know until we see them in game.

[lost light]

The devs are open to feedback.

And bug fixes sometimes have unexpected balance changes, I guess.

The balance candidate pack exists, too.

[nimble kite]

Yeah I wish it was used more as a PTR before any changes are pushed to live for a set period of time and only included changes that are intended to be pushed to live within ~30 days.

I said release candidates above but I meant balance candidates.

[lost light]

Tremor was in Hornet's pack for about 6 months.

[sudden cedar]

i think it'd be good just to get a more consistant view of things which constitute balance changes overall - this is a symptom of a larger issue

[nimble kite]

While I appreciate hornets pack, there's too many changes to really evaluate how a single change there pushed to live will work.

Its an entire rebalance and can be evaluated fairly well as a whole but imo falls apart when you pull a single tweaked unit out and push it into the live balance environment.

Again I'm happy with tremor change, I think it's good but I do agree with the idea that the process for balance change to live can be improved.

[wild sigil]

Alot of rattle/persecutor advantage is that you don't need a lab imo so that's ok to me

[lost light]

True, you get your twitcher and build it... And it cost so little e....

Investing into a Tremor is an insane risk. 49k e

[versed glacier]

Tremor rn invalidates t3 units like catapult and vanguard which need t3 lab that costs 7k metal to even build.
It has more range than them, easier to use than them, and its just overall stronger for metal cost.

Dunno how you can argue its not totally unbalanced in current iteration???

[hardy raft]

Thinking about rushing tremor on ATG eco

Not sure if u can do it without fusion, considering E cost. Anyone tried already?

[alpine bronze]

Im pretty sure its hard to do even if u have fusion

[old hollow]

You need a fusion

[dim lodge]

you are again mistaken on several levels

[dim lodge]

I do have a changelog update stuck in a pending PR. nobody thought otherwise at the time, as game changelog was thought to be 'headlines only'. I have discussed it since and agree it is notable enough given lower bar for entry, hence the pending update

[hardy raft]

Idiot, you're a textbook "i need some love" person

[tardy sable]

[wild sigil]

Just make a gazillion winds, a few asolar

[tardy sable]

we have done jugg on windmills

[hardy raft]

on glitters maybe too hard bcz space

[nimble kite]

I built a tremor on wind just yesterday on glitters but wind was pegged to the max at the time + multiple e store. I wasn't eco though but front.

[hardy raft]

just watched eco rushing 4 tremors on 2 fusions, was clean

maybe 1 would be enough with more wind, dunno. 15min 4 tremors out if i recal

[formal arch]

the tremor needs ten times the range

hornet, I demand it

[lost light]

How did it go?

They cost as much as a T3 lab... Or 11 Tigers.

Actually way more because of E.

[hardy raft]

Well, you often see them on glitters nowdays. Other team also responded with tremors,but the game decider was something completely else - karganath push through canyon

On glitters tremor can be oppressive, you have to respond on front, unless the team is passive ans justs wants to watch tremor rain. Ive seen spybots as good counters or just focusing team effort elsewhere and pushing through

[lost light]

#goaround 😉

#lessStallmates

[hardy raft]

Tremor is really nice rn. Love to see it and plays that form around it. Good job. Time will tell if its too good. Too good tremor isnt good for glitters but its waaaaay too early to tell

[tardy sable]

Yeah go around the tremor -> dive the undefended area ->get shurikened/abductored -> uninstall?

[hardy raft]

Well at least thats how games went on arrakis, when everbody was invested in tremor wars, canyon got too little support and died

But its early, response will crystalyze. For previous comment, said tremors werent in canyon obviously xd

[lost light]

Getting emped by Shuris is a skill issue!

Nerv abductors! And get a flak truck against Shuris/or use Jaguars...

And if this version of the Tremor makes toxic ppl leave it is even better than I thought.

[tardy sable]

U can abduct the flak trucks

[lost light]

Nerv abductors

They are T3 Shuris, that can be built in a T2 factory AND can abduct flak tanks.

[hardy raft]

Why didnt op lobby do this? Is op lobby stupid?

[tardy sable]

Wym

Op lobby stopped existing months ago, comes back once a week/month. Or just goes for FFA gaming instead

I mean the top 4 tourney teams were all OPlobby players

[lost light]

How can you know that the Tremor is OP in OP lobbies if OP lobby doesn't exist?

[tardy sable]

I never said tremor is op, I just said it's cancer. Zecrus already said he's gonna look for a middle ground on tremor's effectiveness

[hardy raft]

Tremor meta will certainly be cancer i agree 100%. But its too early to tell now

[novel iris]

idk if it's more cancer than starlight

[lost light]

I am sure it is less cancer than Pulsars and T2 popup atries that force stalemates.

[hardy raft]

Could become a great counter and dynamic between those. Its better to repair and re-porc the porc vs pure camping behind pulsars, agree. Im excited

[wild grove]

rattles been cancer forever it will never change

[sudden cedar]

Where is this said?

Wouldn't it be nice if we all were working of the same information

[raven widget]

Backchannelling the tremor into worthlessness again. Grand.

[tardy sable]

what backchannelling? it was never an intended buff

[tardy sable]

suggestions here are filled by opinions of players i never even see ingame it makes sense balance devs would get tired of reading most things here

[versed glacier]

Yeah these suggestions threads are mostly pointless in regards to balance

[sudden cedar]

Good to know we should all stop contributing to balance discussions then i guess

[versed glacier]

Most of ppl in these threads are super stubborn in their opinions and are completely clueless on how to play the game, thats why I said its pointless to discuss this here.

[novel iris]

stop bullying ppl into nerfing new and fun bs
nerf old and tired bs instead

[sudden cedar]

So where should we discuss this stuff?

[tardy sable]

maybe ur not a frequent player/lowskilled etc, you could have valuable feedback but at the same time it makes sense you somewhat respect the opinions of people who are frequent, more gameplay time and higher skilled and these threads dont devolve into stupid arguements

[sudden cedar]

That doesn't answer my question, and is at best an appeal to expertise. If there's no point to these threasd, they should be closed.

[novel iris]

Well, yes, they should be closed.
But also leave the tremor alone

[tardy sable]

well thats true these threads r mostly useless for balancing

[sudden cedar]

Then that should be officially confirmed so people don't waste their effort contributing in way which are of no value

[tardy sable]

this and the thor thread basically same category

[raven widget]

Elitist opinions like this make me glad oplobby is dead.

[tulip mesa]

Who is more arrogant: The one who boasts, or the one upset by it?

[tardy sable]

ye its obvious this playerbase doesnt respect opinions of players who have insanely more time spent and higher skill

[novel iris]

I don't think Hornet can close threads

[tardy sable]

most older players literally just either @ zecrus in lounge or directly message him for balancing bcz they all know these threads are useless

even one of the mods say these threads are completely pointless and they dont ever look here bcz its a shitshow through and through

[sudden cedar]

Then as I said, that should be confirmed offically and these threads closed so people don't waste their time.

[tulip mesa]

Naw the threads aren't useless. They let newbs interact with higher players in balance discussion; maybe they will learn something if you try to teach them.

[tardy sable]

the threads need better structure or only certain people need to be able to provide feedback otherwise its just a bunch of stubborn people arguing for the sake of it

[sudden cedar]

Solid point, and worthwhile, but if there's "real" balance discussion happening else where then it should at least be made clear what these threads are for.

[versed glacier]

Its an echo chamber where 10 os players can shout at anyone who disagress with their opinion.

[novel iris]

backchannellers, the lot of you

[native marlin]

Players are really good at saying what they feel is wrong but terrible at coming up with solutions

[tardy sable]

i mean i want changes to vore veh its not just gonna be tremor thats gonna cut it

[sudden cedar]

and the lounge discord is not an echo chamber? if that's where balance discussion is happening?

[novel iris]

players are terrible at identifying what it wrong, and terrible players even more so

[native marlin]

The suggestions themselves may not be useful for balance, but the sentiments in the thread give feedback on what direction to make changes

[tardy sable]

lounge has alot of dogshit opinions aswell

[cobalt moth]

It’s all a big conspiracy actually

[sudden cedar]

Then surely it should be happening in this discord, if necessary behind closed doors. But at least not on an unofficial sub-community Discord

[novel iris]

lounge dont exist?

[versed glacier]

I mean at least they have some basis in skill so they arent all bad

[cobalt moth]

We make secret game decisions in the lounge specifically with the goal of undermining everyone else and enriching ourselves

QAnon will rise again

[sudden cedar]

If for no other reason than historical record for what was discussed and decided being in the official community discord server

[tardy sable]

idk, usually most people disagree with each other but when things like this tremor change or people asking for thor nerf happen, most have somewhat similar opinion

[novel iris]

if you need some elitist pve representation, hmu

[tardy sable]

also i think sheep is banned from here he cannot physically talk abt it here xD @sudden cedar so thats that

[cobalt moth]

We do

[native marlin]

I don't find this reason compelling given the other ways we record reasoning for balance patches

[novel iris]

this is still a tremor thread btw

[sudden cedar]

So you're argument in favour of the lounge Discord balance discussion is so moderated players can continue to provide their opinions, despite not upholding the values of the community?

[tardy sable]

hes good at providing insight idc if he can uphold community values if he can provide valuable balance opinions

[novel iris]

this is kinda sadge actually, same for contrib only channels. I don't sit on this discord all day to not know whats going on

[sudden cedar]

Good point, I think i've said my piece. Lets hope the Tremor continues to be built when its useful

[steel pier]

who sets these values?

[median gate]

https://www.beyondallreason.info/code-of-conduct

[formal arch]

the tremor needs to be taller imo

if you turn too quickly, you should fall over

[tardy sable]

Suggestion Thread Gameplay be like

Give opinion about balance

"you are only 0.1% of the playerbase"

GG

[tulip mesa]

Instead of appealing to authority, which newbs will see as logical fallacy, perhaps Idiot can try explaining in detail precisely why op tremor is bad and why he thinks this patch makes tremor op.

[versed glacier]

Here u go coura

[cobalt moth]

For me the main thing about tremor that makes it difficult to balance around is how easily it deals with t2 porc whilst also killing units

At least merl / arbiter don’t have the same impact vs actual units even if they deal with t2 porc quite well

[tardy sable]

See, Coura wanted to know why i thought about tremors the way i did. But he literally needs to ask me, because otherwise he will need to filter through 600000000000 messages

[novel iris]

wtf is an entity count

[tardy sable]

number of units, higher entity count = more prone to being out of position due to spread. Eg: 7-8 mausers would be spread across a wide area meaning they could get collapsed from one of the flanks meanwhile tremor is only 1 unit for the same cost it can just sit at the optimal position

[tulip mesa]

There is an axiom here that may need more explaining here for the newbs.
"long range mobile units with low entity count shouldn't be good."

The newb response could be, "well shouldn't every unit be good? Why have a unit in the game if it's not good?"

[novel iris]

more like you need to decide what long range is. Because everything you've said applies to starlight as well, except it doesnt outrange a rattle

[versed glacier]

You can use common sense

[novel iris]

common sense says starlights are just as problematic

[versed glacier]

If u think so, it means our common sense is not similar and there is no middle ground for us to speak about balance.

[novel iris]

can you explain to me why a starlight, being a good long-range low-entity unit, is not problematic?

[tulip mesa]

I understand the argument, but I dont think it's explained well enough for newbs, to whom it won't be obvious that "it has to suck"--blanketing an area at extra long range sounds fun, doesnt it? Live that tower defense life, right?

[tardy sable]

star isnt same category of unit as mausers or tremor, they arent artillery blanket fire units, theyre precision units

[formal arch]

clearly we need to buff catapult to match new tremeur

[sudden cedar]

Power creep - best avoided

[novel iris]

Nothing here about blanket fire. Why is that problematic and the high alpha single target isn't?

[tardy sable]

i mean i cannot just 10000% explain everything i might be wrong on some things, the point of these threads arent tutoring newer players. i tell whatever i can to people who ask me about game genuinely

[tardy sable]

spam, reload time, design in volatility of units

[formal arch]

buff starlight as well imo

[tulip mesa]

You can bait Starlights to wasting their burst. You cant bait a tremor.

Idk, starlight still annoying AF tho. Pulsars, too

[novel iris]

From where I'm standing, the problem here is that players prefer linear maps and get into artillery shootouts. The tremor is good because it can outrange the rest of the usual offenders, and clears random junk as a nice bonus. Nerf it and you're going back to never seeing a t2 cor lab in those situations, except when someone decides to do something like a tzar rush.

I'd welcome a tremor nerf only if the other long range units get the same treatment of being giga e expensive like the tremor. This mainly means starlights and sheldons

[tardy sable]

t2 cor lab being only usable for a niche unit that was shadowbuffed doesnt fix the issues only makes them worse

1yr or smth ago we had op crying for t3 core lab and it eventually got sorted out, kargs and shivas got changes, demons got added. T2 veh will need something similar, not an invisible tremor buff

zecrus did shiva firerate change, kargenaths got HP, Cost, Size, Turnrate change and missile retargetting. Hornet added demon and fixed its flamethrower

u arent fixing a lab with simple stuff like +20% dps on tremor with range increase out of nowhere

thats the main problem, this thread says it is about "tremor" when in actuality its just about t2 cor veh lab.

[tulip mesa]

What do you mean by shadowbuff? It's on balance updates on website

[tardy sable]

its not in changelog which is supposed to be the announcement area

[novel iris]

Ok but what else do you change. Tiger already a good unit, missile trucks are mirror, you can't have a jag cause that's an arm thing. I can only see an answer to the starlight as the option to fix this, and I don't think a starlight-level banisher is any less cancer tha tremor.

[tardy sable]

banisher AI, E cost,
Stealth unit

[novel iris]

if you nerf tremor range by 400 but give it a sane e cost, I'll be happy. That's not even a nerf.

[sudden cedar]

why was this post deleted? If your just going to remove context?

[cobalt moth]

Delete this

[sudden cedar]

Mods or an admin can delete if it needs to be deleted.

[dim lodge]

again you are assuming everything and knowing nothing

[dim lodge]

except they're usually not, and mostly being shouted at

[tardy sable]

eta of annoucement of changes are now after newlobby or what

[dim lodge]

I can't argue with that one, however

all input should be welcome, but it all needs distilling and assessed in context of bigger picture, which lounge is fundamentally incapable of doing
and that certainly won't/can't happen locked away behind closed doors with a load of angry, banned people

[tardy sable]

ye the 10os people shud do the balancing instead, who also happen to never play the game 😄

[dim lodge]

don't make me tap the bell curve chart again

[tardy sable]

idk i could ask u a simple question abt meta and u wud have 0 clue about it but somehow ur in charge of alot of balance decisions or smth

[dim lodge]

'rocket bots'

[tardy sable]

yeah u have 0 clue

[tulip mesa]

Idiot may be good at the game, but bad at compelling rhetoric. :/

[dim lodge]

this one is somewhat valid, the threshold for 'in game changelog' has never been defined and everyone has different expectations of what should be there
I have since updated it, but that PR is tarpitted for a while

[novel iris]

a wall of 10 evocom changes 1 by 1 should not be there if you want my 2 cents

[dim lodge]

the site is meant to be exhaustive changelog, by definition that's everything, but yes evocom has a lot of units therefore can overwhelm a bit

[tulip mesa]

Would be nice if individual logs could be minimized/expanded, so not scrolling down a wall of stuff that means nothing to most people. xD

[dim lodge]

doable

back on tremor track, does anyone have any notable replays showing tremors doing too much too well? anecdote/observer bias will be well in effect, but similarly there are obviously games that I've missed, and some might be genuinely noteworthy

ideally games without lane mismatches, and where the tremor(s) are actually reacted to - thus far basically all very effective tremor usage I've seen, could be attributed to lack of reaction, which always takes more time to go through meta than the instigation

[lost light]

So a good taxi driver is automatically a good city planer?

A player is a player and the devs are the devs.

And a good player that is just insulting everyone and shouting at everyone "0 clue" and "your thoughts are wrong" and "your opinion is shit" needs to be moderated!

[tardy sable]

ye u guys r hopelss

[lost light]

@queen shale Pls have a look at Idiots posts and tell me that they are not in line with CoC

[tardy sable]

who apart from me has contributed anything to this thread could u explain that to me

you guys have unreal agenda against higher OS people , somehow we are always the bad guys despite trying to cooperate. Calling out obvious bullshit is toxicity, not conforming to ur eco chamber is not aligning to ur values

[dim lodge]

the 'agenda' you see is the plural noun of 'reaction' in this case
it is almost entirely your collective faults

[tardy sable]

eh w/e go ahead complain to perfi about me

thats all u can do bcz engaging in a convo with any valuable take is beyond impossible with you guys

[dim lodge]

by which you mean anyone who agrees with you, apparently

when you actually have points to make it can even be worthwhile talking with you sometimes. but mostly you just bury anything useful under so many layers of condescension and insults, that I'm surprised you don't hit the character limit

[tardy sable]

well its not my fault that being low os or being bad at the game, having 0 clue about the meta or gameplay etc is an insult for you

[dim lodge]

eg this isn't entirely wrong, but people barely even see it among everything else

alright let's tap the bell curve again, shall we

OS as a metric for much beyond vague game balance ballpark is a highly flawed argument in itself, also

[versed glacier]

It is flawed for 50 os players true
not for 20 os ones tho

[tardy sable]

would u say that Austin,Xfactor,Chisato has less game sense and knowledge about units than you

[dim lodge]

would you say they know more about how the game actually works than I do?

[elfin trellis]

tbh this thread perfectly showcases the reason contributor-only channels exist

[tardy sable]

what is "works"

[dim lodge]

which is a shame as in theory, public input is highly valuable
but people try to ensure their voice is loudest in room, one way or another, to try to force changes to create the game they personally want to play

[versed glacier]

Isnt this what you did with your "balance" pack?

[tardy sable]

isnt that literally what ur balance pack is? a custom mumbo jumbo of tweaks that u wanna have in the game personally

[dim lodge]

in this case technical level

balance pack is a heavily tested collection of adjustments, which is highly popular for good reason
if it were 'just me' wanting it I'd have packed it in a year ago

[tardy sable]

what part of working of the game made u feel that you were going to nerf thors for example

[dim lodge]

BAR design conventions, which thors break on several levels

[tardy sable]

context of design conventions pls

[dim lodge]

monolithic units being countered by swarms, or fast units, or long range units, or porc, or dgun, the thor has built in answers to most of those, and shouldn't
for the cost and position it should do a role very well, certainly, but not several, and not be its own support crew

[tardy sable]

how did u determine thors are not countered by long range units or porc or dgun

[dim lodge]

EMP missile for the first two, speed and highly potent attack for the latter

long range units do provide some counterplay in reality, as do sneaky petes and dguns - but the secondary objection there is -those are best done by Arm only-

[tardy sable]

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=7a8dd166e4bd66486684b94b41aa06d9
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1151868095376404621/1279028135148650526/image.png?ex=66d444c6&is=66d2f346&hm=e5d9163e10daac5327e2eaa5d6ac0088ae563dc177c7e59792724fdddb58ef4b&

[stone mirage]

1 tremor is vunerable to merl sniping game so you make 3?

[dim lodge]

I mean that was a push into a lolcannon from one direction only, what on earth did you expect to happen

[tardy sable]

2x army value to win bcz its op

[stone mirage]

how good tremor depends on

1. how easy it is to catch out of position relative to it's performance (throughput)
2. how good it is at actual offensive pushes
3. what are the counterplays (snipe, flank, doom drop somewhere else, afus, attack other ground/naval/air lane)

[tardy sable]

you said "monolithic units being countered by swarms, or fast units, or long range units, or porc, or dgun, the thor has built in answers to most of those, and shouldn't", i just showcased it being not true for thor despite being way more army value

[dim lodge]

a lolcannon is not 'long range unit', it's a lolcannon
sniper/starlight/sheldon or something would be the more usual interpretation
and tbh if you'd just flanked with the thors in 3 groups you'd probably have won handily

[lost light]

In one game...

[stone mirage]

thor is specifically an anti swarm unit tho. It trades poke and bot turning for anti-swarm and tankiness
oh sry

[tardy sable]

it was emp'd and was shooting enemy lolcannon othertimes

[elfin trellis]

Please discus Thor balancing in https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1226522053406883911, not here.

[dim lodge]

this also, it's a sidestep and a half by now

[tardy sable]

it isnt about thor in particular, its the method he's using to determine which units have a balance issue

it is too late i have to go ill YAP later

[dim lodge]

'A' method, not the only. at the absolute top level thors tend to be slightly underpowered if anything. that doesn't mean they're a good unit design, nor not a problem at other levels of the game (which is most of the playerbase)

[hardy raft]

Can confirm tremor cancer on glitters

[hardy raft]

Its now becoming clear to me, after so many tremor games. Range is just bit too much

[tulip mesa]

It needs the range in order to siege Pulsars/Rattlesnakes. Debatable if that is a necessary role.

I think most necessary role is to be able to defeat Starlights.

Could just lower Starlight HP, which would give Tremor and Banisher more viable counterplay without making them op.

[stone mirage]

Starlight is out spam them, flank them, spam + super tanky med tank or tiger

Or maps that are not completely flat. Any obstacle gives cover and a flank route as the starlight walk past

[wild sigil]

If it comes down to lower tremor range or DPS just go DPS plz

[wild grove]

see this is good though, iterative change. they get changed so there is at least a reason to use them - if it is overly oppressive they just slightly tune it back.

reember tremor costs 4x the e cost of a starlight so it should be pretty useful.

But at least its being used at all now

[tulip mesa]

Hot take: Let it be secret op and farm OS until the newbs catch on and complain about it. >_>"

[native marlin]

Starlight costs e to fire though so that discount isn't as meaningful

[dim lodge]

problem is without the range, pulsars negate them, and pulsars often beat tremors to the front. without the reload rate buff, starlights surprisingly good at dodging the rain

[dim lodge]

it is as the starlights can still be built and on their way to the front, while more E is being built behind them
whereas the tremor doesn't exist at all until all that has been paid upfront

[formal arch]

tremeurs should be able to target air units (no homing though)

[stiff pagoda]

I think there are more units that need this primer buff.

[hardy raft]

This is the best kind of balancing i agree. But as i play mostly glitties these days, there's a LOT of very oppressive tremoring xd But balance changes need time, so i wouldnt change them for a good while, at least until almost everybody complains

Like, rn i think people sleep on LRPC to counter tremors. Never seen one built for that purpose, it could be okayish, with extra benefits besides countering tremmies

[fickle patio]

tremors see more play on isthmus now, but they dont feel as op as i.e. salamander pre change. feels like more games are lost by tremor builders than won.

[sudden cedar]

I suspect a lot of this is people not understanding how to use them effectively to actually be offensive with and pressure the opponent. As people learn how they are effective and allies learn how to work with them they will start to show their true colours, then can be balanced accordingly

[stiff pagoda]

That could be because the proper counter isnt found yet. (oh i read that wrong 😄 )

[dim lodge]

assuming this follows same pattern as when balance pack buffed tremors, you see a rash of them used in the 'new toy' phase, then people remember better tools exist for specific jobs, whilst also people become better at reacting to tremors (or just diving anyone trying to rush one), and general status quo resumes

[stiff pagoda]

Im just guessing, not seen a single tremor game yet, but i think 99% of tremor users dont use em correctly, ie aiming behind the enemy they wanna attack, this is how you kill the unit, unless its moving towards tremor. Auto-attack is suppressing and aiming behind is actually hitting the unit.

[dull holly]

One way or another, whiplashing back and forth is not how you balance something - you have to let things settle after a change

[dim lodge]

I'd like to give it time and see what happens ideally, yes. I fully agree tremor shouldn't be too good, but I'm not yet seeing that it is

[stiff pagoda]

The only change is 0.5 -> 0.4 reload time, this doesnt majorly change how tremor works, all it does is add more players using it from previously never.

If this change was silently reverted players would still build tremor.

[dim lodge]

it's a little more complex than that, tremor has very slightly more effective reach now, meaning some of the actual DPS area can reach say a pulsar, rather than just the absolute fringe

it is worth noting that pulsars have built in counterplay to that; you just turn them off for mass armour buff. even an open pulsar with light nano support will be basically immune to a tremor

[stiff pagoda]

IMO Tremor will always be a support unit and without a meatshield it cant technically hit anything that is moving, you can zigzag your way to tremor OR take the few hits the suppressive fire will do until you close in where the supressive fire goes away (the spread narrows so you dont get that many projectiles far ahead).

It cost way above 1800 metal if you convert energy, but you still need other army infront for defense so its not a one hit wonder like starlight is.

Its equally useless alone like shellshocker/wolverine is.

[novel iris]

sorry but this is a hilariously pointless comment

[tulip mesa]

Reload time and more condensed at long range, for almost double effective dps on any single target in area compared to prior.

[stiff pagoda]

why so?

[novel iris]

tremor being useless alone is irrelevant to its balance, and converting the energy cost to metal is plain wrong when energy is the prohibiting factor in getting a tremor out

[stiff pagoda]

the dps isnt true if you use auto-target, it might not even be true if you hit in the perfect spot at max range, this is easy to test.

[novel iris]

here's the old tremor, go nuts

[stiff pagoda]

All im saying is that you pay for a unit that you cant leave alone, while starlight you can, it can kill stuff, tremor cannot.

so the cost of 1800+49k aint final, you cant compare metal values against each other because one unit isnt hitscan, it has huge delay on impact just like t1arty, meaning a single grunt/tick can kill tremor, while thats not the case for starlight.

[stiff pagoda]

23 secs perfect aim = 375 dps. 2nd img: 85 secs (center of spread box at max range) = 101 dps.

max range (auto-targeting) 123 secs = 70 dps.

Uhm, didnt know it had knockback/stun, thats major. If you get attacked by tremor straight into Stouts you cant get out because it stuns the movement. Bull is unaffected.

[hardy raft]

Guys spec some arrakis games, tremors are wild. I agree every change needs time and i dont support swift back and forth changing, but i think tremor has lots of roles now, it denies a huge area and on glitters this is extremely good. The fact that tremor cant be left alone is moot imo, since everybody will have more stuff than tremor, especially in full frontline map like ATG. The fact you can lower pulsar also doesnt mean much, because with that u effectively "killed" pulsar in its role to actually fire and kill units

[dim lodge]

that cuts both ways - it's also possible for units to be pinballed -out- of the tremor field faster than they can walk/drive
the knockback isn't linear, it's radial from the point of impact, which is from a vertical drop

[dim lodge]

do remember that glitters is basically perfect tremor map though. and just as marauders aren't nerfed because they're ridiculous on strait, glitters alone shouldn't provoke a tremor nerf - especially as said throughout thread, people rarely respond well in game, nor use things that counter tremors, especially afk ones which are just sitting there shelling you

[stiff pagoda]

For stouts it seems to be a slight vehicle stop no matter where it lands.

[dim lodge]

it's possible it relates to centre mass location on the model, unsure
grunts for example are often pinballed right out

[sharp basin]

Slap a laser turret to a Tremor and all balance issues would be gone within minutes😊😊

[tulip mesa]

I do appreciate that the higher rate of fire + reduced area makes it more consistent.

[wild grove]

also a lot of the gameplan in ATG is porc front and since tremor is anti porc it is really suited to that kind of scenario

[dim lodge]

exactly. sausage map with narrow front and safe eco positions; it's "Tremor: The Map"

[hardy raft]

Now that i was more on a giving end rather than receiving, i like em more. Funny how this works

[hardy raft]

Premium catapult

For just 18k M and 500k E you can have your own t2 catapult

[stiff pagoda]

blue is doing the sensible thing of porcing

[sudden cedar]

Not really sure what point that image is trying to make

[stiff pagoda]

mini ragna, half price.

I would still like to see a game where tremors aint covered by major op porc, then tremors has no chance, so all this is showing is tremors are good as support.

[dim lodge]

'more money than sense'

[tulip mesa]

Made 1 Tremor. Got it up to 3Star. I make almost 0 porc.

Don't need op porc, just situational awareness so you can retreat it in time. And ofc, some units to cover it. Generally a grunt screen, + tzar or w/e adaptive to enemy threats.

[cobalt moth]

op/ how many kills?

[tulip mesa]

Almost 200 ish, would have to double check.

Goaf you were in that one, too, with Tremors doing a lot of work early.

But my tremor TremorLord ;D

Was just most recent game I had from last night. I don't feel like searching through replays for better examples atm , lazy D;

[cobalt moth]

I had a game with my tremor getting 330 kills and we lost badly

[tulip mesa]

Dx

[sharp basin]

So far havent seen any Tremor on glitters....weird

[steel pier]

make one

[sharp basin]

ofc

[stone mirage]

On strait, water and air can side step the tremor.
flagship can be a direct counter

[sharp basin]

So,problem solved indefinetly?I see no point in having thread anymore imo

[alpine bronze]

I saw three tremors last time I saw a glitters match

[novel iris]

Not quite. Depending on how it lands, I think it's time to ask to make the tremor useful, again

[hardy raft]

Tremor is good, useful, no need to change it

[alpine bronze]

Eitherway im not happy with the change, even tho it may be closer to balanced

[cobalt moth]

Vanguard too op now

[lost light]

It might just be that this Tremor threat can be closed, now.
This very angry player is silent, too, so there is no real opposition against the current state. Which is some amazing work tbh!

@dim lodge , what's your opinion?

[tardy sable]

real balance guy balancing 👍

[lost light]

🤣

But OK.

Everyone is happy, now...

[novel iris]

We've had 0 days to playtest the changes, so I'm sure everyone is happy and there's no need to even look at the unit.

[lost light]

True I haven't seen the changes...

So let's see how it turns out.

[sharp basin]

Oh i didnt even realized that it got nerfed,i have no idea what impulse factor means though

[wild sigil]

p sure impulse is how much it boops unit around

[novel iris]

how hard it knocks back the units
shouldn't look as silly now, but also a nerf to its stopping power

[wild sigil]

someone tell if i got this right tho, tremor now lost some range cus no longer range mode, same fire rate as before and less impulse

[sharp basin]

So in the end the only buff that it got was that it no longer has firing modes?Not too sure if its damage was changed

[wild sigil]

i dunno im probably wrong just asking kinda hard to know what was changed which made tremor op the first time cus it was a bugfix xd

[sharp basin]

I dont think it had any bugs

[lost light]

The spread got reduced quite a bit.
So it deals a bit more damage at max range.

[sweet cedar]

what changed about the vanguard?

[tulip mesa]

Longer range, less health

Didn't realize it needed a buff. Seems kinda obnoxious. But I don't play (filthy) armada to use those things, so meh. I just know they had an obnoxious amount of health, making it annoying as heck trying to remove them off cliffs with Kargs. 8500 still seems like an obnoxious amount of hp

[formal arch]

the DPS per metal is still quite low

[stiff pagoda]

Will tremors be used less is the question, i dont think this change makes em any worse than before.

[tardy sable]

It's just a 1 click area denial unit, the less it's used the better off the game will be

[stiff pagoda]

So ure saying if they are used as much now you would nerf em more so players stops using em?

[tardy sable]

If there was a different unit model fitting the role of long range artillery and I was somehow a dev I would delete tremor in it's entirety

[stiff pagoda]

How is it any different than say snipers? Snipers kills units instantly, while against Tremor you can just move to not get hit. And it requires manual micro to even be effective while sniper is f-move solution.

I miss the point why you think its a bad unit. I think its a great unit to force enemy to do something, just like snipers.

If enemy made 10 tremors would you not be happy? Seeing as it cant deal with salas/tigers/jags/fiends/grunts, well any unit who can move really.

[cobalt moth]

u can spam vs sniper

[alpine bronze]

Thats huge. Why make so they outrange pulsars? Also whats with the rocketter changes?

[tardy sable]

the fact ur comparing tremor to sniper is just beyond mind blowing

[alpine bronze]

Oh they now reverted the reloadtime change. Time to change back the title I guess

[stone mirage]

there is some irony with "why balance unit off of one map" with tremor on glitters
when the same thing has been said with nuke bomber for months
changes are fine tho. fire mode unification is a buff so can take things 1 buff at a time.

[lost light]

And more spam is good game play, I forgot. More Ticks and Junos are good for the game.

Tremor, let's see how useful it is now.

The Tremor: Let's see how useful it is, now.

I don't know if we needed rockos with more consistent damage and speed or Thugs that are healed faster, though.

Let's see how this plays out.

[cobalt moth]

just to clarify i don't mean make a million units, i mean that pawns and grunts metal for metal counter snipers but they do not counter tremor

it's a good gameplay mechanic that some t1 units still have a use beyond the t1 phase, it allows someone who hasn't teched to not die completely to an opponent who has

[stiff pagoda]

A single tick/grunt/pawn counter tremor.

Tremor is a support unit. Sniper is not. 1000 snipers and there is no counter but air. 1000 tremors, it loses to a single tick/grunt/pawn.

[stone mirage]

that's so inaccurate. snipers die to t2 rocket poke
emp bot is okay too
or rattlesnake + t1 wall spam

[sharp basin]

yeah emp bots counter mostly all ground units
Also yesterday i saw 5 Tremors on glitters denying choke points,very good.

[stiff pagoda]

5 Tremors is an AFUS that some expensive choke point control. While good it delays eco scaling.

[sharp basin]

Not 5 tremors from the same player lol

[stiff pagoda]

Firing Tremors at the ground where nothing exists doesnt sound like a good use of its firepower, should aim porc/army position, if lucky you destroy some units and in worst case you push em back or they need to zigzag their army left-right to dodge OR attack, which probably isnt their first thought.

[hearty gale]

the question is where do you see tremors get used? supreme isthmus is like one of the best examples of a use case for tremor and i get laughed at by my teammates when i suggest making one in OP lobbies with 50 OS players

im not complaining i allways said the tremor cant be truly good or it would be bad for the game

[stiff pagoda]

Laughing is not an argument.

[alpine bronze]

high OS dont know what theyre talking about ; )

[stone mirage]

Tremor is probably good on straits but u have to remember air and navy are strong lanes there too. If you make tremor they make nuke bomber...

And don't tremor too late or flagship counters it eventually

Also abductor and tick spam can deal with a lot of things

[hearty gale]

this is exactly what happened to my tremor 😂 it got nuke bombed and my banishers where to shitty to do anything about it
anyone saying banisher needs to be expensive cause its AA has no idea how bad they actually are at it when its anything else other then transports and gunships

[stiff pagoda]

Liche is more expensive than Tremor and Liche most likely died just after, i would say thats a win.

[hardy raft]

Banishers are amazing at skirmishing frontlines when made early

[hearty gale]

i think theyre harder to rush then a tzar and offer less potential

if you face a tzar with a banisher you have to retreat through 2 bases that get wiped before the tzar dies from the banisher

[cobalt moth]

Saber with the ridiculosly bad takes, you're all getting trolled at this point don't bother

[stone mirage]

Banisher has weaknesses (misses, manual control required, needs los or misses radar) but the main reason is too low throughput

Reducing its cooldown would make it higher skill cap higher and more reliable aa mb
Or just increasing dmg to get important 1 shots

[hearty gale]

or make it a t2 janus with 2 rockets
the jankyness of the banisher rockets reminds me alot of janus

[tulip mesa]

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1139180261905543299

[hearty gale]

if you dont bother with tremors and go for catapults you get more use out of them i would say
how long will you keep those 5 tremors before t3 outranges them. will it really be worth it just to hold for a couple of minutes

ive had some successfull games with tremors but i actually kinda doubt the tremors where the reason for it in any of those matches when i think back but i can think of matches i definetly lost because i decided to go tremor

[tulip mesa]

You may not survive a couple of minutes before you get ran over by Starlights.

Tremor mostly a counter to mass starlights/mausers/quakers/sheldons

[hearty gale]

ive been in that situation a lot, tremor isnt a bad counter when it comes to sharpshooter but starlights will at least take your tremor out before they die
i allways end up thinking: should have gone armada on geo

[tulip mesa]

yeah and shapshooters, and ambassadors / arbiters .

vs starlights, you need to use SET TARGET and kite , in which case starlights lose hard

for extra tremor micro, try to keep their chasis pointed in the direction of their escape route, since it takes forever for them to accelerate and turn.

dont just send them up to front to fire like static defense; move them to a spot where they have an escape route, preferably with a long path diagonal or perpendicular to your target area, then turn them facing that path before you start firing away. if enemies start approaching, starting moving that tremor sooner than later

tremor same speed as starlight

[wild grove]

You get to the battlefield later as tremor because starlight are 1/4th the e cost of a tremor and will build faster

[modest widget]

yeah tremor gets a lot more utility on maps with cover to park them behind

[tulip mesa]

My point was that Starlight shouldn't be able to catch and kill a tremor, unless something went horribly wrong

[lost light]

Yeah, in one word:
Micro!

If you want to be effective with CORE micro!

[tulip mesa]

I did kinda like the increased attack speed, for consistency. Could dmg be reduced instead? Or would that cause too much cognitive dissonance between big explosion and tiny dmg?

Or too good vs spam ?

[lost light]

Ask the guy that reverted it.

Damage and impulse are linearly connected.
AOE is independent from damage.

[dim lodge]

it was a group decision

[dim lodge]

it would probably shift too much about how the unit works to do that

[sharp basin]

Status report?

[hardy raft]

Tremor is good, i love in on glitters, has a role but after a week or so it doesnt seem overly oppressive. I think its in a good spot. If it would become way more popular it might be an issue

[tulip mesa]

I got spoiled on stronk tremor, now feels weak. xD

[fathom viper]

nah nerf tremor

to much range

[hardy raft]

Your pulsars killed by tremor: POV

[solid dove]

if no range change is wanted
reducing AOE by like 40-50% so it doesn't completely wreck units like sheldons, mausers, hounds ect super fast would be an improvement. Currently only few units can try to fight against it

[novel iris]

imo it should completely wreck units like sheldons

[solid dove]

yes i reflected on this and you are right

[sweet cedar]

IMHO sheldons,mausers and hounds being the most viable T2 units creates boring gameplay. The balance between tanks, scouts, infantry and artillery is currently massively skewed towards artillery and scouts.

[sharp basin]

Just like old school TA,except with less close combat units

[sweet cedar]

Map issue, choked up 8v8 maps where you can fill the front with static defense will naturally make units good vs that better, hence why people spam sheldon/arty/hound etc, backed up by porc, while hounds and sheldons see some play on more open maps, it's far more diverse

[sweet cedar]

Probably more diverse, yet I'd say the majority of games feature the rocko conga, then hound and sheldon balls. IMHO, tank and infantry close combat is much more fun than long-ranged standoff and mindless spamming of scouts.

[sweet cedar]

Play 1v1s then? Nobody makes rocketbots in 1v1, its tick pawn grunt incisor blitz brute stout janus pounder all the way

[sweet cedar]

1v1 is probably more fun in many ways, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't improve the most popular game mode

Thread: Nerf artillery and scouts https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1047081727291559986/threads/1287068547096514702

[sweet cedar]

The most popular maps, glitters and straits, heavily incentivize making static defense to cover the narrow front.
If tanks and grunts could fight static defense well, static defense would be utterly useless.
These units require maneuvering, that's their strength, you can't do it on these maps as #1 the terrain doesn't allow it #2 even if you get behind enemy lines, shurikens will stop the raid

[hardy raft]

Having strong porc opens up more unit variety with needing to deal with it. Otherwise just grunts and rockos would be ok, and tankballs on t2

[formal arch]

After seeing and playing some games, while tremor is a bit better on straits, it still doesn't seem that great on straits

Mostly because by the time tremors are out, sea seems to be t2, and battleships/missile ships out pressure the relatively immobile and inaccurate tremor. Ships think twice before pushing casually into starlight range, but tremors have no stopping power against large tanky targets.

[stiff pagoda]

Tremor not meant to automatically be accurate, you gotta manually aim the spread box (yellow) to center of the unit if the intention is to kill instead of suppress movement.

[opal lodge]

Kuchy puts tremors everywhere. I'm not gonna be able to sleep tonight. Nerf tremor.. It's broken.

[lost light]

That's always the problem of Tremors they are useless when they finally hit the field.

The fact that Tremors aren't really useful on "Supreme choke point" is not good.

And it isn't overused on glitters? Wow... This is THE Tremor map. A map that is flat, so tanks are valid AND has steep hills that are practically made for Tremors...

So the Tremor isn't really useful. Not even on Glitters aka "Tremor the maps", nor on "Supreme choke point"

Poor Tremor.

[hardy raft]

But on glitters tremors arent bad, they in good spot. Not overly opressive and not useless

[tulip mesa]

Like 99% of players don't know how to micro Tremor. It'll be strong in a few years. xD

[alpine bronze]

Its overly punishing, Tremors die super easily with their 3k HP

[tulip mesa]

If it gets caught out of position, yes it should die easy.

[frigid hamlet]

Ah tremors on both sides of the field just hammering on the middle from multiple lanes. This is peak BAR gaming. I’m so glad the tremor exists to out range everything and create a sweet no-man’s land. This is so fun. I hope we see more of this high skill gaming. I need more of this. Please buff tremors further. I wish it to become mandatory to build them. Like it should get to the point where if someone builds something else then they should be branded a troll for trying to do anything but siege large swathes of the map. I am definitely all in for this wonderful unit. Nothing but tremors for me now. Maybe give it a couple green lasers like mammoths? That would make it better. Anti air too would be helpful because making flak is kind of lame when you could just make more tremors.

[tulip mesa]

there was 28k worth of tremors on the field between both teams, lol. They mostly weren't doing anything productive, just bloon tower defense

[raven widget]

Sounds like a skill issue

[hardy raft]

Cheetah witnessed The Tremoring xD

[split atlas]

could I propose some other maps other than the tremor me here daddy map ? we have over 200 maps in this game after all.
don't balance the game based on 2 most popular 8v8 maps, thx.

[frigid hamlet]

I mean I played in rotato and zow was doing the same thing, but ty for chiming in as always m0rli. It’s a great, very skillful unit no matter what map. I think we can all agree.

I love high skill units like the tremor. They make the game so fun and fast paced. Much micro involved to continuously blanket an area from long range. Such a joy to watch. Probably great to cast too. Very e sport worthy. Going to take us far. Right up your alley I guess m0rli.

[dull holly]

Some people would rather have slower paced than faster paced games

[split atlas]

im looking for that rotato game, hard to find though.

damn i found some gg this bar-stats site is op

[frigid hamlet]

Should go to the replays page. I believe in your ability to find it. It is already known that I play mostly ATG. Please find another way to try to shame me. Thanks.

[split atlas]

I trust the bar stats site, it has even games that dont show on official matches list because they got forgotten by the server and didnt count to os changes.

I'm not trying to shame you in any way, its just u spam glitters 24/7 which is primary tremoring map in this game and i think balancing the game based on one or two maps is just dumb.

[frigid hamlet]

Does the fact that I play ATG change the fact that it’s a low skill annoying unit with hardly any potential to make the game a fun and interactive experience?

[jaunty furnace]

Tremor is super bad in many maps, only a good alternative in porcy - stalemate glitters like front kind of scenarios

[sweet cedar]

How can you make a fortified narrow front map fun and interactive?

[frigid hamlet]

Fire and forget mobile blanket artillery is not a great thing imo. People can say it’s OP on certain maps and dumb on certain maps, but what would make it better? More dps? More speed more tankiness? Even wider range m0rli? How would you and indaclub balance such a unit? I would argue that it’s not a great unit for the game no matter what map I am on.

[jaunty furnace]

Tremor needs a consolidated frontline to shine , and a choky lane, if those conditions are met and it excels there unit is well designed right ?

[split atlas]

Dunno im not zecrus. He is the balancing expert I will let him figure it out in the end. Is it strong? yeah, is it op? not sure

[frigid hamlet]

Narrow front maps are a constant battle with people ganging up on others’ lanes and moving to cover other lanes which is harder on wider maps.

I think it’s OP, but more importantly in a game, I find it a poor unit to have because it’s boring as crap to have low skill people line up some popups and tremors hitting further than anything else.

I would not balance it, I would remove it from the game. A fun experiment.

[split atlas]

If you think its that op just play it yourself and win more games, easy as that

[sweet cedar]

Narrow frontlines make static units and buildings far better as moving is less important, ofc you make the most expensive t2 arty to bombard fortified positions, tremor is useless in mobile warfare, it's a very expensive very specialised unit, maneuvre on glitters isnt great becouse everything is porced, otherwise you could just go around the tremor since they spent 2k metal on a mobile turret

[frigid hamlet]

If it’s not good on wide maps and it makes the game boring and is too good on narrow maps, then what is the argument to keep it in the game? I am hearing a lot of reasons from you all to not have it, but no actual disagreement with me?

[sweet cedar]

I'm telling you if a map heavily favours a type of playstyle and unit, that playstyle and unit will be really strong, don't play such polarising maps if you don't want such polarised gameplay, if you removed tremor you still have mass porc with cata starlight pulsar vanguard arbiter etc etc

[frigid hamlet]

There’s nothing else in the game that continuously blankets an area at such high range. Longer range than catapult and vanguard in a giant area at t2. Keep harping on me playing a certain map. It’s simply not a good unit to have in a game.

[split atlas]

just make shield, op

[frigid hamlet]

Shield is the worst thing to try to counter tremor. Dies to one tremor that costs less than a single static shield. Do you even play the same game that I play?

[sweet cedar]

Idk move your units out of the way? Don't make porc only? Get some spybots? Get some air?

[jaunty maple]

Countering unit too hard, better remove it instead

[split atlas]

lol ? : )

Even if it goes thru it will deflect enough shots so that porc gets healed by nanos.

[frigid hamlet]

K you all enjoy your high skill tremor gameplay. I will leave you all to it.

[dull holly]

I like blanket artillery, I think artillery is way underused in strategy games.

[jaunty maple]

Last time someone built 3 tremors against me on glitters, I killed them with tigers and reclaimed op

[sweet cedar]

Nobody makes tremor outside of ATG, ofc the ww1 roleplay map with 16 ww1 roleplayers is gonna play like ww1

[frigid hamlet]

You thinking 3 tremors is the worst of it 🤣

[jaunty maple]

Idk I didn't have any issue and don't think they are so op they need to be removed. I simply found an opening and made a play

[dull holly]

If you are struggling against them that bad, maybe an air play is the way to go?

[frigid hamlet]

Like I said.. it’s just my opinion that they are a low skill lame unit to have in the game because of the concept. Not necessarily because it’s OP. Catapults also blanket an area at longish range, but they come in at a later time and don’t continuously fire and don’t out range pulsar. You all have a different opinion. That’s fine. Attacking my map choice is meh.

[raven widget]

One wonders why nobody is building catalyst

[sweet cedar]

Pulsar is skilled unit? Just sits there outranging everything oneshotting? How skilled

[split atlas]

There is a lot of low skill units in the game, no idea how is that a valid argument.

[jaunty maple]

I think it should have increased energy drain per shot but I don't think it's much lowers skill than other units

[sweet cedar]

It's static defense that outranges most artillery that's pretty low skill no? Don't need to force enemy to attack into you, just need to plop it down and hope enemy waddles into it while trying to dislodge you

[frigid hamlet]

Blanketing an entire area from longer range than all static defense.. Not sure why I even have to argue this point. This seems crazy to me.

[jaunty maple]

It was considered a troll unit to build until the secret buff rediscovered it

[dull holly]

LRPC: Am I a joke to you

[raven widget]

Catalyst outranges it, and building a catalyst plus a missile is cheaper than a whole tremor

[frigid hamlet]

What are the numbers on the amount of time it takes to kill a tremor with an inaccurate lrpc? lol

[split atlas]

ok dont give out my secret tech in public discord ty

[dull holly]

I think it was two good hits

Also, I did some tests, and 1 Tremor under a shield wins against 2 Tremors without a shield

[jaunty maple]

It's fragile, slow, expensive, and underwhelming in most use cases

[sweet cedar]

And it is literally useless if you don't run into its blanketed area, have you perhaps tried killing the tremor with units?

[raven widget]

Oh, sorry. I forgot about the secret pact. Where's my ritual knife?

[frigid hamlet]

Gee I never thought about that. Killing it. I will try. I think I am done with this conversation. Sorry to have joined. You all.. carry on..

[tulip mesa]

Tac nuke?

[sweet cedar]

Should be no issue if enemy spends 2k+ metal on a unit that can only fight buildings

[solid dove]

Tremor using set target and moving are very very hard to kill
and you actually need to kill the wreck also not just the tremor

[tulip mesa]

Tremor fights more than buildings, lol. It beats Starlights/snipers/sheldons/Mausers/Quakers/arbiters/negotiators/hounds(to lesser extent) / . . .

[jaunty maple]

Make sprinters and run at it lol

[solid dove]

it's guarded by pounders and on glitters you also have porc with them most of the time

[jaunty maple]

Sounds like sprinter needs buff, what can you do if you can't rush it down GG

[split atlas]

remove tremor and cor t2 veh lab roster dies to a push of 5 starlights with ticks lel

[sweet cedar]

Yeah it fights buildings and units that fight buildings and skirmish with the cover of buildings, its a map issue

[jaunty maple]

Well I learned a lot from this conversation. I look forward to abusing tremor in glitters and reaching 50 os

[split atlas]

i need to try this tremoring too, maybe i will reach 40 os finally

[tulip mesa]

Any map conducive to a t2 popup, or to Starlights/snipers/Mausers/... , could also be conducive to Tremor.

[sweet cedar]

Right, if a map is good for artillery, the most expensive t2 artillery is good, makes sense no?

[tulip mesa]

Yes, and that's a lot more maps than just glitters, lol

[sweet cedar]

Yeah then i don't see the issue, it's good if the map is suited for it, that's good, isn't it?

[fathom viper]

maybe think next time when 6 tremors are pounding ur front and guarded by porc and hella units

[raven widget]

What porc kills a catalyst?

[hardy raft]

Tremor design is superb, unit is fun, cheetah biased because of hate and sees muddy

Tremor forces players to think and not play smoothbrain sailing

[tulip mesa]

Cheetah a janua-enjoying armada spy trying to spread anti-Cortex propaganda! >;O

[versed glacier]

Yea tremor is in a good state right now. It used to be a meme but now its a proper unit and need ppl to use brain to counter it.

[random cave]

I like how it gives cor a decent t2 option that is really diffirent to how the starlights work, would hate cor to just get their own starlight equivalent since it would be more boring

[solid dove]

well they already copy pasted starlight on core

[random cave]

ye I saw that unit

is it 100% gonna be implemented?

[novel iris]

I 100% hope not

[lost light]

What about Deadeye?

[novel iris]

200%

[lost light]

What do you think about removing Fatboy? It's basically THE Core bot. Big slow mega plasma...

[novel iris]

My campaign proposal from a while ago includes fatboy blueprints getting stolen from cortex

[lost light]

I see

[novel iris]

Adding a new unit needs more justification than keeping an existing one

And big plasma is not an exclusively cortex thing

[lost light]

Core has no answer to T3 in T2 while arm has an awesome solution is the reason.

[novel iris]

Spybots.

[random cave]

they are honestly optimistic at times xD

[lost light]

Which are more expensive than Arm ones... And I don't know if there are any T2 veh spy bots -_-

[random cave]

as soon as the front is saturated with shit they fail

[dull holly]

There are not

[lost light]

I was sarcastic

The answer: "spybots" is just hilarious anyways.
Because it could be a reasonable answer if Arm had none...

[novel iris]

this is literally a tremor thread, arm doesn't get tremors. Life is not fair

[lost light]

Japp, you are trolling right now.

[opal lodge]

So when we getting rid of tremors?

[vale shell]

Tremor needs a hidden projectile that does no damage but fires at its own feet with moderately high impulse to blow ticks and grunts away. For thematic reasons to suit the name.

[dull holly]

Or we bring back the fire mode toggle and the new other mode is doing a big shake!

[random cave]

horizontal trajectory firemode?

[dull holly]

That would be hella cool ... the wheel swings up and sideways so the barrels all point to the sides and the ground, and then it's shower time 😮

[unkempt field]

I think we should revisit hounds and double their effective range

[round glen]

when are they going to add hounds back to consul

[hardy raft]

Yeah...no. maybe sprinters

[alpine bronze]

Hm consul is a vehicle unit so why not include the lightning tanks, if its not there already

[old hollow]

Let me introduce you to the worst meta of all time

[round glen]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-joke-ranier-wolfcastle-mc-bain-the-simpsons-stand-up-comedy-gif-4372917

[formal arch]

Do the funny and have twitchers make tremors

Wait no

Have commandos make tremors

[dull holly]

Have Tremors make Tremors ... but Tremors don't have hands, so let's have Tremors shoot Tremors out of their guns

[alpine bronze]

Well I guess its on topic 🙃

[sweet cedar]

Yes it's different, but it's supposed to be Core's long-ranged pain causer. Right now it's just a rolling metal donation!

[sweet cedar]

Sheldons are still relevant against T3, just have to micro them

[lost light]

Sure. Their DPS/Metal and second is a joke, but you know that.

There is a difference between being able to kill stuff and being able to kill stuff before it killed your base.

[hardy raft]

Banishers are great combo with tremors unironically. And especially if supported by pounder spam later on

[formal arch]

The downside is that you don't have a "I want that specific target dead" unit. And you don't get one until...tac missile? Catapult?

[lost light]

And you don't get one. Fullstop. Spybot+D-gun...

Arm has Sneaky Pete at T1 thought...

[sweet cedar]

Behemoth. Or else Juggernaut when it blows up after barely making it to the line of pulsars.

[sharp basin]

Imo i dont see any use for this thread anymore,it seems that people are generally content as to how tremor is right now,i presume it still lacks any counters and whatnot?

[raven widget]

Which of the following is not true?
A catalyst and one missile is slightly cheaper than a tremor.
A catalyst significantly outranges a tremor.
A catalyst oneshots a tremor.

[sharp basin]

Whats a catalyst?

[raven widget]

The Cortex T2 missile emplacement

[sharp basin]

Oh yeah

[raven widget]

Armada's EMP launcher also counters, just not in a bang you're dead way.

[hardy raft]

Catalysts are underused so tremor counters arent explored enough

[lost light]

Now you are trolling... And you know that...

"Just get the slowest unit of the slowest unit in the game"
Or
"Just get the most expensive unit of the game and let it die to kill a specific unit"

[tardy sable]

buff it harder

everyone got annoyed of it on glitter and they started playing rotato gg, secretly made the game 10x better. Hornet too op

[dim lodge]

I mean, yes, it was a map problem more than a unit problem
solution to that is just ... not monomap

[hardy raft]

tremor certainly makes gameplay more hectic and requires actual response. personally i like it, it's less stale

[random cave]

I think you could argue that pulsar lines are about as op on glitty as the tremors

and they went ignored forever

probably nr1 enabler of afu farming types of games

[random cave]

I tried to execute this trick but my tremors did not fire on the move at all, is there anything special to it?

my set target ground was 100% in range

[random cave]

nvm looked closer and realized it only works if you dont tak sharp turns

[tulip mesa]

Ya the turret turns slow

[dim lodge]

#corelife

[solid dove]

yeah gotta be real careful driving them with the right angle

[round glen]

1/3 of all total games are played on that one map. It seems reasonable to consider that large a proportion of playtime , regardless of whether or not those players should “just play another map”. The other choice is they can stop playing, which is not preferable

[dim lodge]

my point is you can't balance units around one particular map, whether that's strait or glitters

if you minmax one particular map to the extreme, you end up with less variety. that said though, in the replays I'd seen, tremors weren't being responded to particularly well yet, and supported pulsars still clowned on most things
tremor is a weird unit to balance in that competence in a reasonable number of situations, could potentially OP it in others, and glitters is basically ideal map for the latter case to be true

[round glen]

Sure you can’t balance for one map at the expense of another, but I don’t think that is what is being asked for. I think we’re all smart enough to preserve what we can while helping the gameplay experience of whoever plays on ATG

And if it truly is an untenable problem and no changes can be made (which I doubt) then we can have discussion about map changes

[hardy raft]

Lemme just say that a catalys 1shots tremor and quite a bit around it. Now catalysts are pretty nonexistant in most glitter lobbies, until maybe last couple weeks, but now becoming very much worth it. It raises the overall skill plateu, needing to use them besides macroing and microing, which isnt bad IMO

[versed glacier]

I am pretty sure tac nukes are super inefficient vs tremors and by the time they load, your front will be dead anyway

[raven widget]

Catalyst and one missile costs less than a tremor.

[hardy raft]

Maybe too late as a response but if they are frequently built as part of the gameplan, suddenly tremors arent as oppressive

And tremor meta might push players into that direction, i dont think thats bad. They also wonn be the reason for loss IMO, its not a bizare investment

[versed glacier]

Making tac nuke on time to counter tremor will literally cripple your eco. A good tremor player can dodge tac nuke missile anyway.

[hardy raft]

Saying cripple eco implies they dont have much use, but i think they can have a variety of uses. But need to play more defensive to leverage investment (or raid successfully)

[versed glacier]

dunno maybe you have a point and we should build tacnukes earlier

[random cave]

it still leaves arm with a few less tools to deal with it

even later on the tremor can sit under shields and not even vanguard or lrpc can do much about it, cor at least has catas

[solid dove]

i mean tacnuke works the first time, then people use air scouts to see them beeing build
and use set target on the tremor moving around

[hardy raft]

Considering the travel time and launch, its a gamble for both players. Moving tremor doesnt guarantee saving it, tac nuke has a fairly big explode

[solid dove]

doesn't matter much on glitters even if you lose a tremor, with the amount of mexes, you get another one in 30 secs honestly

[dull holly]

Hornets

[dull holly]

I mean it 😛 Their rockets go through shields n'all

[random cave]

If I was looking to nerf it I would make it chew up shields a bit slower

[formal arch]

I know I am in the minority regarding this, but if necessary, I would be okay with the notion of maps having balance tweaks specific to the map (eg. marauders having less DPS on straits, perhaps tremors being nerfed on glitters)

It's an extremely hacky solution, I know, but it would keep units viable across maps, and would be easier than changing the maps themselves.

[sweet cedar]

This is actually one of the best ideas I have heard for a while 💡 Either that or get the mapmakers to deliberately sabotage those two maps, so people play some other ones!

[sweet cedar]

My idea was to have a variable amphib/all terrain tax. So Maruaders are base cost on ATG, but something like 20% more expensive on Isthmus. This would also make hovers viable on dry maps, adding to unit variety.

[nimble kite]

I'm against any sort of per map balance baked into the default game experience as it directly contradicts wysiwyg.

That being said, the mono map lobbies could easily come up with a template of tweaks themselves similiar to how nutty b has a doc that is followed.

[sweet cedar]

Metal cost balancing would not contradict WYSIWYG, as the metal coat is displayed on the unit factory icon. I have a vague recollection that amphib tax might have been a thing in BA for a period. Amphib tax woold fix a lot of the unit valance issues, e.g. Juggernauts UP on dry maps due to paying the tax but not using it, Marauders not paying a tax so being fundamentally OP on amphib maps.

[versed glacier]

U guys got ur wish arrakis made their own version of BAR

[round glen]

It’s almost like when the community doesn’t want to collaborate and people say that certain opinions don’t matter, those folks are just going to go work on making changes on their own.

[novel iris]

Does this mean the tremor nerf can be reverted?

[round glen]

My ultimate hope is that arrakis finds a set of balance changes that will be functional for the entire game not just one map. Arrakis is just doing the same thing hornet is doing, curating a list of balance changes that we think make the game better. If people want to be part of the feedback process then that is welcome

[raven widget]

The changes required to make a rod-shaped map play well will be worse for the main game.

[nimble kite]

Eh, I barely look at unit cost anymore at this point as I have general costs for almost everything memorized. Imagine if 3-4 other maps got popular and all of a sudden you have 6 different costs for a bunch of units and you have to remember which costs apply to which maps.

There are always going to be units that have maps they excel on and are very good for their cost. (as well as the inverse) A fun part of the game imo is learning the units inside and out so you can analyze a map and decide which units are worth building. If units are adjusted in cost to make them all equal value on all maps then why even have such a unit/map variety.

Imagine if we made amphib more expensive on silent sea because it's really good there or made spoders more expensive on divide because bypassing the only choke is too op.

[formal arch]

I am for it

[torpid swift]

What did they do?

[alpine bronze]

From my understanding, Laudy decided do some glitter-specific tweaks, like reducing Tremor range, made for glitters basically

[tardy sable]

Ye it seems like gdt doesn't care about certain random changes that makes game unplayable

How many countless hrs of yapping about com trans being disabled for base game + tremor not being super viable as it's just 1 click peak cancer gameplay

Even after the comupdate it took unreal time for llt special dmg to be reverted even tho it was an obvious no brainer

• they're gonna be changing bubbles to affect every projectile except tac nukes n emp silo
  (Who the fuck asked for this)

[sweet cedar]

It would take about 2 minutes for players to get used to amphib units all costing 20% more on isthmus, you could put a notice in the loading screen. This Would Not lower unit diversity, it would make more units viable, so you could still use spiders on flat maps and its not just dead weight in the build menu like half the units are now.

[sweet cedar]

Is this a serious proposal? Changing bubbles to work against everything is a really bad idea, i played a bit of Zero K somw time ago, and players basically had to put shields, including mobile shields, everywhere to stand a chance, so thw knly viable strategy was advancing slowly behind a shield.

[tardy sable]

ye its a serious proposal, prolly wont pass

[hardy raft]

Very bad proposal regarding shields IMO. They become a must, resulting in smallpox gaming for sure

[raven widget]

I’d prefer shields didn’t exist at all, myself.

[alpine bronze]

hm

[formal arch]

part of the problem is that some ampib units aren't op - I would say hovers and plati are fine on straits, it's really just marauders, possibly salamanders

I honestly don't really mind marauder op on straits status quo, but I think I played a hornet balance patch where they did half dps and they were still good on straits

[sweet cedar]

Yes, I would say decrease the standard metal cost of hovers and platypus, plus juggernauts, so they cost the same as now on Isthmus, after the tax, then they wouldn't be deadweight units on other maps. Marauders at 20%+ cost would still be OP tbh, I would suggest also nerfing the swimming speed to half or so.

[tulip mesa]

Do people even use hovers much on isthmus? Hypothetically it should be one of the best case use maps

[formal arch]

Yes, geo or geosea opening with like ten light hovers happens occasionally. Geo opening hovers has been more popular lately as a legitimate strategy and not just a meme.

[hardy raft]

Yup, frontlines sometimes pivot into gantry hovers to help take back lost sea and follow up with land assault, sometimes hovers open at start to snack on exposed geo near beach, but often just amphib tanks rather

[sweet cedar]

Not as much as you'd expect. UP versus land units and UP versus sea units, there are some niche use cases. Arm T2 amphib bots are effectively hovers, and are perhaps the best ones avaiable, being great light raiders, but after about 20 minutes, you're better off making marauders.

[novel iris]

they're not effectively hovers, they're just hovers

[timid scaffold]

the thought behind shields block everything is, that its unbalanced that one faction has more plasma then the other and therefor gets more affected by shields
this is pretty much pointless in actual matches tho, the only units that ever get countered by shields are tremor and vanguard
and the vanguard deserves to get countered by shields since it can pop up literally everywhere on mountains meaning you cant chase it
and the tremor deserves it because it has way more range then any other t2 unit

catapult on the other hand needs protection so the counter is to not porc inside your shield simple as

[old hollow]

Single map balancing makes zero sense to me, especially when MM arrives and people will actually get to experience more of the map pool. Units excel on specific maps, that's the entire point of unit diversity.

[novel iris]

Counter strike has single-map matchmaking queues. I'll be very surprised if we don't end up with something like a glitters-only matchmaking queue.

[quick pivot]

Maybe once we get a second version of this dusty map 😜

[random cave]

suggestions to achieve diversity very already made...icy glitter, magma glitter and maybe a grassy one

[torpid swift]

There was a grassy glitters https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/554307356360441876/1231467237466968154/image.png?ex=67001cfc&is=66fecb7c&hm=835908cda429480aa047bb4aaf724cfbd7f4225ae04d49dd3a5dd6d9fcbda3ff& but it got rejected

[sweet cedar]

My suggestion was to add more colours to ATG so it's not just all orange. After a couple of games on that map, I NEED to play something with multiple colours in it!

[frigid hamlet]

I think the argument of "well it's only good on these types of maps and not on these other ones" is not a reason to say a unit is balanced. If something excels to the point where it is OP at its role, but you say it's balanced because it doesn't see use on a map that doesn't require units with that role, then that's not really an arument not to nerf a unit. It's like saying, well Rag doesn't see much use on Delta Siege Dry so maybe it should get a buff. It's a pointless argument imo.

You could give it 2x the dps and it still wouldn't see much use on the ginormous maps with wide open lanes. It's not useful to consider its balance in roles it's not designed for.

Just a low skill oppressive crap unit (cool concept though) that gives power to noobs to blanket deny lanes on skinny maps.

[split atlas]

I don't see GET approving any balance changes based on single 8 vs 8 map. Doesn't really matter how popular it is, its just one of many and the balance changes affects all game modes and all maps.

[frigid hamlet]

That's great m0rli. I am just voicing my opinions from one of the many maps. Others can voice their opinions for the other maps. I don't think it makes my opinion any less valid, no matter how much you would like to belittle it rather than talking about the unit itself. I am just saying that I don't think just because a certain unit isn't used on a map that wouldn't ever have need for a slow, blanket artillery unit.. that shouldn't be taken to mean that the unit isn't OP at its role.

[raven widget]

Previously, tremors weren’t worth building on any map.

[split atlas]

yeah sure and blitzes and stouts are very strong in flat open maps. Different units have different roles and excel at different things. Some maps favour one or other playstyle.
I don't understand this low skill unit crap anyway, all units in this game are low skill, u just draw the line and they shoot, or u just select target. They don't have specific micro or abilities lol. The same pointless argument can be used when mentioning any long range unit/porc, pulsar, sniper etc
Should we remove them too?
Should we nerf stouts because they are strong on flats and forests?
Yeah, no thanks.

[round glen]

Good thing this thread is about the tremor and not the stout

[split atlas]

ok

[tulip mesa]

That's a newb's wet dream, blanket area denial. But I think consistently Tremor isn't really good in newb hands except vs bots

Ergo all the "Tremor is useless" sentiments we've seen in the past.

[round glen]

i appreciate that it did get a bit derailed but that message was replying to broader questions (and i believe clarifying misinformation about) the arrakis balance pack.
while potentially more inflammatory than intended, my sarcastic remark was only intended to bring your attention back to the topic at hand when the comment i was replying to was using a lot of shifting goalposts, strawman, and whataboutism that i didn't think was constructive. Cheetah is just sharing his experience and hes telling you hes not having a good time, and you poop in his cereal. Just looking for some sympathy

[split atlas]

yeah and i clearly explained why unit shouldn't be modified based on a experience on one of the 8vs8 maps. The game offers broad range of game modes and maps, and each balance change affects all of them at once.

I feel its kinda obvious at this point, feels redundant repeating myself.

Just what raikoh said in the other thread, just do tweakdef nerfing tremor range and be done with it.

[random cave]

I would suggest increasing the downrange spread

that would make it much less opressive and would mean players have to invest more into defending their tremors since they will deal dmg slower by hitting less shots

but its gonna remain a shakeup the stale front unit since its gonna force a reaction, with less range its back to dead and never made

this would also buff shields vs it

[sweet cedar]

Tremors are low skill becouse they outrange pulsar (highest skill unit in BAR)

[tardy sable]

Bro this looks 10x better than current map

[hardy raft]

Terraformed Arrakis when

[frigid hamlet]

It's like a Pulsar.. that moves.. costs less.. has a higher range.. (and even more range when put on a hill).. a large aoe.. more dps per metal (up to twice as much if you factor in laser range damage drop off).

Same dps as a catapult that costs 2.64* more metal, higher range than a catapult, and comes out of a t2 lab. I'm not sure I can say much more about this unit. Constantly hitting the ground all day in a wide area farther than all other units (including t3) and static defense (except very long range artillery/missile type buildings) is just lame unit design. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

This is ridiculous to me.

[split atlas]

FYI vanguard has longer range now the website is not updated

[frigid hamlet]

(t3 and still less range than tremor 🤣 )

[alpine bronze]

Good unit in theory i guess

[frigid hamlet]

Did they really lower the vanguard's dps down to ~1/4th that of Tremor? How many con turrets would that take to out heal? 1?

[raven widget]

The Vanguard is high-alpha direct-fire.

[tardy sable]

tremor dps is spread aoe and its not effective on full spread

[frigid hamlet]

I just did a test where I hit my cortex t2 factory (5100 hp) with a tremor at near max range. It took 50 seconds to destroy. 5100/50 = 102 dps. That's more dps per metal for tremor and that's going across a large area so it's probably going to hit more than one thing.

[tardy sable]

cor t2 lab has higher width than most buildings

tremor will deal more dmg to t2 labs, t3 labs, afus etc than to pulsars, prosecutors, pitbulls etc. u have to test unit dps against what theyll mostly be shooting at, not highest possible dmg due to width

[timid scaffold]

well catapults go through shields, thats their superpower
and they get a lot better when microd then tremor
you can just retreat and blanket fire sharpshooter balls completely destroying them