#T1 sea needs actual anti air ship

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

novel obsidian
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Pretty straight forward t1 sea doesnt have good aa ship that would actually be good for actually shooting air atm arm has 155 cost light anti air ship thats very bad at anti air and core has light anti air ship that cost 210 which is also pretty bad against air.
so could we get reasonable cost anti air ship that would actually shoot only air which would make its cost reasonable.
i suppose it could be solved with current ships also but i understand that it might be hard to do considering current balance with them.
i undestand that some maps are fine with current t1 ships that are in the game and might make this aa ship feel unnessesary but this is something that is kinda lacking as well in sea gameplay.

clear halo
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Can really generalize this to "make navy t1+t2 not outclassed cost-for-cost by all labs other than itself, hover lab, and maybe arm t1 air"

gilded radish
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i mean, this is the case for every t1 lab, all the t1 aa sucks. bot aa is trash tier, vehicle aa is missile truck, hover aa is the only one that's kind of acceptable.

clear halo
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Bot t1 aa is frequently considered better for cost than bot t2 aa

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Basically all t1 navy is slightly cost-inefficient relative to its land equivalents, and t2 navy gets utterly blown out of the water (literally) by the counters which exist in every t2 lab, as well as t3 hovers

elfin sand
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Consistent bad takes on the thread (except silversol)

quiet ivy
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T2 navy aa is survivable, but if enemy air decides to do a bombing run while you’re on t1 and your air decides to match ecos afus count (MTG I’m looking at you) all you can do is clap and write a long admiration message.

clear halo
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If they build torp bombers and know how to control them, your existence is on a timer no matter how much t2 navy aa you have

gray swallow
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t2 navy without air support loses to T2 air, with micro

quiet ivy
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Yes but if they build torp bombers your air is at turbo advantage.
Also its a different phase of the game since by that time you should’ve won your sea.

elfin sand
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U can literally put t1 aa on repeat and forget about enemy air (cortex herring kinda shit tho)

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  • just make ur own figs and u will easily win air since u will have ground aa (more of a t2 problem)
quiet ivy
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Y but you can’t do that while fighting other sea player

hollow sedge
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Remember choice never plays never so really the best takes from the man

elfin sand
jovial tiger
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If you already won navy then you should probably just go air or amphib, if you lost navy you should just go air for torps to take back navy, and if you’re still fighting over navy you may as well go air for torps and win naval. Seems a little strange that the air lab is better at fighting over the water than the naval lab but what do I know? There should be some kind of water banisher missile cruiser or naval mercury to be a high-end AA you could make to counter torps. Naval AA vs torps is the only place where AA doesn’t hardcounter 4x it’s cost in equivalent tier air.

hollow sedge
elfin sand
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Come sea 1v1 whenever

clear halo
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Except that it needs to fight torp bombers, which can kill it without ever needing to take a hit

clear halo
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2 torp bombers are cheaper than 1 flak ship

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if 5 dolphins die, and the torp bomber dies, the torp bomber was still more than cost-effective

jovial tiger
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Yeah and torpedo bombers are so overpowered that even though navy has the best AA it still loses to air

gray swallow
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they can though
with perfect micro they have infinite trade value
only time that's not true is if you have your AA on the coast, which means snipers are eating it for free

hollow sedge
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It's simply a numbers game.
Also Torp bombers need control, or their ordinance crashes into a rock or a beach or whatever

rustic trellis
jovial tiger
# rustic trellis They are there most finicky of bombers though You cannot just decide to drop the...

In no other area of the game is it even possible to lose the theater to air. Snipe eco or commander yes, but it’s impossible to lose land control to an air player even if you spend most of your metal on tanks and they out-eco you significantly. Gunships suck ass and no amount of non-emp bombers will be able to break an army defended by T2 flak. The best you can do is Liche down enemy T3 that’s already broken into friendly territory so it doesn’t have AA defense. On the other hand, it’s really easy to completely take someone out of navy and destroy their entire fleet with torpedo bombers even on worse eco than them. Absolutely no reason for torpedo bombers to outrange AA ships, cost less than half the metal and still only 2/3 the energy, and also have 2000 health. They have the health of a Liche for 1/5 the cost, better HP/metal than Dragons.

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All those factors combined mean that you can’t even shoot at a microed torpedo bomber, and even if they fuck up it still takes 4 seconds of them letting you shoot it for a flak ship to kill it. To add insult to injury there’s no naval Mercury/Screamer so you can’t even fortify an area to stop them.

gray swallow
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it kind of ties into the bigger problem of navy being everyone's kicking ball lategame. everything navy has costs more to do less, and you won't have been able to eco heavily most likely due to having to pay through the nose to win your lane. Even then, sea eco is abysmal value, which is where you have your buildpower

jovial tiger
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Underwater fusions are better than regular fusions and naval converters are better as well. I think back in the good old days AFUS were memes and everyone stayed on fusion, now that people actually build AFUS there should be a naval equivalent, doesn’t need to be any better they just need to have it

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Naval T2 AA is actually one of navy’s greatest strengths, T2 torp bombers are just so incredibly overpowered that it doesn’t matter

gray swallow
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naval T2 AA is great yes ... but not against the one thing you -really- need it to be. so you have to have your own screening air as well, before knowing if that's even a threat you're going to face. Another 'not dying' tax essentially, paid blind

clear halo
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At least you have antinuke built into something generally useful, so you need to pay less for protection from nukes, maybe because nobody would waste a nuke on a navy player

gray swallow
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there is that

clear halo
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but don't worry, if you use that ship as a spotter for your naval bombardment (because navy isn't allowed to directly gain a practical source of vision on its own), when it gets bursted down, it'll also take out a chunk of the health of the ships it was spotting for in its death explosion

jovial tiger
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If the torpedo ship you’re working on comes through basically as a way to get torpedo gunships or torpedo bombers from the T2 naval lab instead of pivoting into air that will help navy a lot against amphib, leaving it only unusually bad against torpedo bombers, T3 hover, and Arm bullshit T2 burst units, and of those only the torp bombers and snipers are really problematic. T3 hovers should beat navy and you can at least fight against arty/starlight/pulsar

novel obsidian
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orginal issue is if someone rushes fast liche/t2 bomber theres currently no aa ship that could kill it with reasonable time atm to kill liche 18 shots from current aa ships

elfin sand
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It's the same with t1 ground mobile aa, trick is to just make more aa or ping air player

novel obsidian
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or you just build static aa turrets and its solved much easier

jovial tiger
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Yeah if someone is rushing fast liche against T1 mobile anti air anywhere on the map they should be able to get some value out of it as long as they can protect it from fighters. 2000 metal and 46000 energy of T2 units rushed out before its main counter is available should get some value. Rushing a liche should put them so far behind in fighters that they never get to use the liche, and they’re arm T2 air so they can’t even make up for the liche cost with super efficient T2 fighters

clear halo
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A floating SAM and a floating...something somewhat equivalent to a SAM for arm...are in the "extra units pack"(scav units)

hollow sedge
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Maybe make seaplane lab more affordable so ppl can make swarmers ? Basically flak ships are great but there should be a thingy that is more single target and less AoE focused ?

clear halo
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If i'm remembering correctly, vs anything other than arm t2 figs, seaplane swarmers are worse than t1 figs for cost, to compensate for their otherwise-excellent roster, so meaningfully contributing to the fig a wall with swarmers, assuming enemy is t2 cor air, is pretty rough off the back of your (inherently weaker) naval eco. It is better than just not being able to shoot at the torp bombers at all, though.

rustic trellis
rustic trellis
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t2 air lab is the hardest lab to get in bar
its extremely expensive for light gains
yes t2 air labs get cheaper t2 cons
but t2 air is extremely expensive on E and that is something a pure air player cannot easilyt compensate for compared to land units

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i will also add that torp bombers are the most finicky of the bombers in the game when it comes to micro
they have the longest attack pattern of any of the bombers and always fly over their target during the attack run

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its also worth noting that t1 aa ships serve 2 roles at the same time
the herring having both AA and long range missile for AG with strong LOS and sonar
the skater being an extremely good naval scout with sonar and strong LOS with AA capability and a light weapon for anti surface purposes

clear halo
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I've tested this many times: if you have any form of vision/radar on the target + open sea, even with the animation lock, you can sling the torps and get away without taking any damage in return most of the time, occasionally taking a single shot from only the naval flak's longest range weapon if you slightly mis-micro

rustic trellis
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yes they need that to even attempt to function

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shortening the attack pattern would be a better way to nerf the torp bomber
there is also the fact that i have negleted to fix naval colvols since i started that rabit hole
im pretty sure that there are intricacies there that dont need to exist or atleast shouldnt exist

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on top of that
torp bombers do need encouragement to be used against navy over the regular t2 heavy bombers

clear halo
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I'm fine with them being cost-effective vs naval flak, I just take issue with the potential for uncounterable infinite efficiency, particularly when basically every lab has a cost-effective tool for handling t2 navy, and navy generally needs to attenpt to prepare for all of them, while also being behind in eco (though that last part can largely be attributed to most of the land/water hybrid maps' designs rather than actual unit or building balance)

rustic trellis
clear halo
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That's actually really interesting information, and I'm surprised I've not heard it until now. I've always been under the (apparently false) assumption that the disparity in performance between land and navy was, for some reason, deliberate

rustic trellis
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the maps that navy was testable on were majority water

clear halo
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Huh. Well, thanks for that explanation. I never would've guessed at that situation being the case.

I know zecrus has been considering giving torps and depth charges bonuses vs amphib. Is there much interest beyond that of helping navy vs land, i guess for lack of a better phrase, "work better"? Obviously very preferably without compromising the integrity of naval 1v1s

gray swallow
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broadly, naval needs to be tankier vs land, comparatively - or much longer ranged

novel obsidian
hollow sedge
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also this would very likely result in them not bugging out when fighting close to land or surface-elements in the sea.

jovial tiger
jovial tiger
# rustic trellis i dont think you have seen dragon spam work out that well before its one of the ...

You’re right, I’ve never seen dragon spam work out well before since dragons cost as much metal as a Razorback and still die to minimal fighter cover or like 1/5 their cost in heavy AA. You have to be really trying to lose to dragon spam, just build a couple chainsaws and a couple mercuries for the price of one dragon and you can deny a huge area, a wing of fighters on top of that is just mean. A dragon’s cost of mercuries will almost oneshot a dragon. A dragon’s cost in dragonslayers can fight 5 dragons and win. Two torpedo bombers cost worth of dragonslayers dies without firing a shot.

Basically no air is even close to cost effective against AA since the land player has to build land combat units and still defend from air. The only air that comes close to beating it’s cost in equivalent tier AA is the torpedo bomber.

clear halo
novel obsidian
jovial tiger
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Ok but 100,000 metal of anything would win a game, that’s 3 juggernauts + escort or 5 behemoths or almost 2 lolcannons

clear halo
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builds 100k metal of ICS's