#RNG can greatly improve the game and draw a larger audience

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

delicate ruin
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Back in the good old days, RTS was structured to be exact and precise, like Chess, so that games were easier to balance and the outcome of a match was (meant to be) completely determined by the skill of each player.

However, just like the renaissance of Texas Hold’ em happened to drive the intellectual masses (and suckers) to the poker table, creating a multi billion dollar industry, RTS has slowly crawled toward more RNG factors that can make a more entertaining environment while still preserving skill-based competition.

The current philosophy of the ranking system demonstrates that the devs understand this concept of long term balanced based on many iterations of games and striving for players to be at around 50% win rate, so throwing some RNG in the mix wouldn’t hinder this philosophy.

RNG is important because it keeps things fresh and can sometimes create slight imbalances that allow an amateur to beat a pro player. How often do we see underdogs go viral on TV for beating Phil Hellmuth (a professional poker player that trash talks a lot, but wins in a long run). There are definitely a few Phil Hellmuths in this game (not naming names, you know who you are) and people would definitely be entertained by viral compilations of certain players getting Liche bombed.

RNG also keeps the meta fresh because nothing is distilled down to a single build order. We already have some of this with the wind mechanic. But it would be nice to have a little more.

(Cont’d due to text limit)

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Is there a way to make procedurally generated maps so that mexes and terrain spawn with relative similarity but with enough randomness to create some interesting gameplay mechanics? For example, let’s say Supreme Strait would still generate two seas and a small land bridge, some interesting mechanics could be had if a random hill were to show up in the middle sometimes or a thin land bridge suddenly appeared on the edge of the map etc. Maybe sometimes the mid-line spawns mexes on a small hill that ticks can’t get up, and maybe they have to adapt and go air.

A good example of procedural generated maps done right is Age of Empires 4 where the unique spawn location of resources creates interesting counterplay and harassment opportunities. If a map like DSDR generated a random number of mexes in the middle but a pre-determined amount of mexes in starting position, that would be cool, interesting, and dynamic.

Anyways, it’s just a suggestion and it wouldn’t be for every map. I think new maps would benefit greatly from this and increase their replayability. Right now everyone knows what to do on maps like Delta, Rosetta, Flats, Bismuth, etc. it would be nice to have some variety within the map pool that didn’t require an entirely new map.

azure mural
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best way to have map variety is make or play other maps

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i get where you're coming from with procedural map generation, Deep Rock Galactic implemented it very well and it is by far the best game i have payed money for in the last 5 years. I disagree with put it in BAR because BAR isn't a coop game, the map is secondary, tertiary, etc. in importance. Having to adapt to the map in addition to the main game elements, would be more of a nuisance than something to look forward to.

clear ice
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A random map is possible. It’ll just be ugly.

azure mural
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ngl if this game was in a prettyness competition it wouldnt win many prizes

patent haven
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so generated maps vs crafted maps?
I believe starcraft used all crafted maps, aoe4 uses generated maps

think it's a matter of what type suits what game

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also generated maps are way harder to make, they have to be balanced and not generate bad maps and everything

delicate ruin
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It is definitely some effort. Its a suggestion to grow the player base. s

unique skiff
delicate ruin
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That's sweet

woven flint
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Potentially even a few varieties in geo spots / reclaim spots for some maps could be an interesting take for a 'bit' for a map

lean goblet
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I like randomly generated maps (so long as they are mirrored), but any other RNG in a competitive game is insanely frustrating, doubly so if its a game with snowballing elements where a won or lost fight early can set the tone for the entire game

jovial magnet
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Random maps would be one thing, but how's that tie to the intro? A new map typically favors the more experienced, well rounded player, not newbs.

compact anchor
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In other words. You would like to have a few maps where there are designated segments that can be randomized to make it a bit more variable in each game to encourage flexibility and interesting dynamics from each individual battle.

karmic scaffold
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I actually really like the idea of balanced RNG in debris/mex/geo placement, maybe even terrain height. Remember, warcraft 3 had random item drops from creeps and it didn't really hurt it really.

Randomness in a strategic sense = good. Randomness in a tactical sense = horrible. Nobody loves miss chances or random damage being the reason you lost an engagement.

I actually think random variance in wind speed is kind of in the realm of tactical and sucks ass when it causes you to stall when the enemy happens to push. That's the only randomness we really have in the game right now and it just trolls people and doesn't really add any depth in strategy.

austere falcon
karmic scaffold
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That's tactical and honestly tactics depending on luck is not good game design.

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It'd be much better if wind was something that varied based on WHERE on the map you were, but was consistent in those places, so you could have actual strategic choices in what you're making in what positions, and how much you could fill the map with windmills.

delicate ruin
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Dynamic wind speed based on elevation would be really cool. You would be placing random wind turbines on ridges of cliffs with your commander. Aircon would be buffed indirectly.

blissful atlas
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I actually really like the idea of balanced RNG in debris/mex/geo placement, maybe even terrain height. Remember, warcraft 3 had random item drops from creeps and it didn't really hurt it really.
It hurted. That is actually why they changed it "recently" - diminishing the effect of randomness.
And especially in high lvl plays it hurted a lot especially in the early to midgame -> BM with several blade of attacks for instance, aura items, sobi mask etc.

However, the random drops were still entertaining - no idea how u would implement a random concept in BAR though.

raw dome
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Can we try unbalanced generated maps just for FFA? If balancing is the issue

jovial magnet
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Balancing isn't the issue, not all maps currently playable are balanced at all

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It's more abt graphics standard, for now the procedural maps made at runtime look like ass. That could potentially change, if somebody improved on it

errant thicket
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Procedural map textures would be very cool to have, but to reach same quality it would essentially have to replicate World Machine rendering. World Machine rendering probably took a team years to develop and it takes an hour to render a map on a standard machine. So to develop that in a volunteer project and make it render in ~20 seconds would be quite a feat.

karmic scaffold
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I wonder if you could get an AI to make them....

wanton orchid
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The start boxes already create randomness in maps, if there are more equally viable starting positions than there are players