Rebalance Consul & Twitcher Building Lists

[midnight trout]

nerf jags then slap them on. replace the AA missile with a water balloon, job done

[turbid remnant]

Turtle ambassador flak truck, done. Radar and jammer if you want to be nice

[quiet elbow]

ambassador on demand would be absurdly broken

[dusk flint]

all of those units can be adjusted such that they aren't totally broken when made via a consul
gremlins can be made stronger and more expensive
jags can be nerfed and have their AA reduced or even eliminated
I just don't like vehicles being able to dip into bot units without having to build the relevant labs in general

but now the devs are trying to balance termites around "twitchers can build them," so idk

[dusk oriole]

This pretty much mirrors my thoughts exactly.
The best vehicle only consul comp I can think of would be Flak, Turtle and Radar Truck. Just about anything else would cause issues. But with that list, it ends up quite a bit weaker than the Twitchers perfectly capable (but less abusable) list.

I thought for just a moment, "I know, lets give the Twitcher a vehicle list instead!", but upon looking at the Core Vehicle list, that doesn't seem viable either.

[dusk flint]

what I'm hearing is delete consul and make the combat engineer a bot kek

[dusk oriole]

Oh, and should say that I don't agree with the idea of nerfing other perfectly good units just to try and squeeze them into a Consul.
The Jag I'd say is in a really nice balance spot right now. It's useful within it's window and relevant situations, without being OP or broken in any way either. It's a unit that gets fairly regular use, without ever receiving complaints. Would make no sense to mess with it.
And adding a Gremlin to a units build list, and then deliberately trying to make it impractical to use from that unit, just defeats the point.

[dusk oriole]

There is that asymmetry of Arm having Buttler whilst Core doesn't get any equivalent, but they're also getting the Forge now.
Faction asymmetry is fun, but difficult. ._.

Is Legion ever intended to be a fully competitively balanced faction? If that is the eventual intention, it makes me wonder what awkwardness they'd bring to the combat engi concept. "Combat Engineer Plane"? 😅

[dusk flint]

Adding a Gremlin to a unit's build list, and then deliberately trying to make it impractical to use from that unit, just defeats the point
we unironically have people arguing to give consul flak trucks just because so many armada vehicle units are broken and can't realistically be given to a combat engineer
also
commando

[waxen copper]

I don't think commando is balanced around it being buildable by twitchers

[dusk flint]

I don't think commando is balanced at all
because its shit :^)

[dusk oriole]

Well try the same for Cortex, coposing a vehicles list on a Combat engi. Vehicles in general don't seem to suit combat engi very well.
The ideal intended units are units with special utility, that might be useful built either in a forwards position, or in small numbers.
The Hound didn't really fit either of these, and revealed a separate issue where we can't give combat Engi's any unit that's too good at bullying T1.

[dusk flint]

try the same for cortex vehicles on twitcher
no, don't
I think its dumb for a main lab like vehicles to gain partial access to bots without having to actually build any bot labs

[dusk oriole]

I wasn't saying to actually do it, I was trying to point out that putting vehicles flat on a combat engi doesn't work well full stop.

It's not specifically that Arm vech is broken that makes it non viable.
Banisher or Tzar rush from a combat engi would be almost as bad as hounds. (only a bit less so due to commanders being better at blocking them)

Felt like making a quick side by side comparison, just for convienience sake.

Infantry: ---- 🔷 Pawn -------------🔴 Grunt
AA: ----------🔷 Crossbow, T2 Flak 🔴 Trasher, T2 Flak ( and SAM for some reason? )
Raider : ------🔷 Sprinter ----------🔴 Fiend
Amphibious : 🔷 Platypus--------- 🔴 Duck
All Terrain : --🔷 Recluse ----------🔴 Termite
Memes: -----🔷 Gunslinger... ------🔴 Commando

Whilst the cross lab issue remains, the lists are at least very easy to categorise now.

( Also I was surprised we don't have any faction symbols in the emoji list for this server.)

[undone depot]

Even if the cross-lab situtation didn't exist, so long as you havd bp and e production, you can always cor t2 botlab->build twitcher->reclaim botlab->build cor t2 vehicle plant->now you have vehicles and twitcher bots. It's not that much more expensive, just inconvenient

[undone depot]

Who says devs are trying to balance termites around twitcher building them? They got strictly, significantly buffed in the same patch which they were given to twitcher

[midnight trout]

forked units for different costs is a really bad pattern. there's only one example in the game currently and that's 1 too many (it's the commando version of the mine)

[midnight trout]

that's the logic I think yes - but commando doesn't compare to a gunslinger, and again consul == free botlab. maybe swapping consul and butler is the only sane solution, short of turning them both into 'combat butlers' with no T2 offensive unit production

[dusk oriole]

Yeah, hence why I put it under the "memes" category. Was the best comparison I could think to fit.

You're either brave enough to go for a reclaimed factory Gunslinger rush, at the risk of your team disowning you if it doesn't work.
Or you're Dolfy requesting a Twitcher specifically for the Commando, and using it to murder half the enemy team whilst they sleep, in a Supreme Straight match.

[waxen copper]

Commando is my favorite unit in the game

[dusk oriole]

It being in the build list is generally really weird, but the game I mention there, did at least show a use for the Twitcher having it. Makes the Commando more accessible to anyone on your team that want's to try some shenanigans.

[waxen copper]

It's the only reason the unit is still made

[midnight trout]

I really want it to have anti sniper armour or something

[waxen copper]

Just let it build decoy com
Fake com drop

[dusk oriole]

The gunslinger being in the Arm list, is a bit more questionable to me. It's either...
A) Relatively useless, since who really needs a "forwards gunslinger" on short notice? It's just not a great unit right now.
or
B) Potentially overpowered like the Hound. If Gunslinger ever gets fixed/buffed/reworked, and it's role doesn't change dramatically, then it would potentially enable that problematic rush strat again.

So yeah, I'd probably vote to switch it to a Decoy Com. It's not half as valuable as a Commando, but it does provide a utility role, and might encourage some interesting niche chances for it to be played.

( Obviously this steals the Gunslingers best chance to be rushed for it's tiny window of effectiveness, but I really don't think the unit should be balanced around relying so much on that anyway.)

[undone depot]

gunslinger will always be a lot less mobile than hounds with significantly less range, meaning it's susceptible to large forces of various t1 units, so long as those t1 units are handled well and don't just allow gunslingers to freely poke at them initially for the early xp range spike

[turbid remnant]

Ambassador on demand would be really good, but it’s not cross-lab and not good massed, which solves the reclaim lab consul hounds issue at least.

[dusk flint]

who says devs are trying to balance termites around twitcher building them?
The fact that they made it so twitcher can build them? I told you before, I don't care how cheap they are, a shit unit is still a shit unit. They are trying to make it less shit by giving you the ability to build it right next to a hill and standardize all terrain capabilities between Armada and cortex, but I am still paying 600 metal for a fragile slow laser unit whose literal only advantage is it can crawl up walls prior to t3

[dusk flint]

Literally no one was saying "make consul versions of those units." I am not sure how you inferred that

[midnight trout]

I read this as such, 'when made via a consul'
if you meant 'change globally so that if consul made those, not so bust' then that makes sense

[undone depot]

still faster than a sumo, still more range than a sumo, still has all terrain unlike sumo. The drastically lower hp is a big weakness, but regardless of whether twitcher can build it, there will be times when you'll want to build them out of your actual lab rather than sumos

[dusk flint]

Bro just go build termites and let me know how it works out for you
I am done with the theorycraft

[rotund canyon]

how about buildtime cost increase for mobile units when building in fields? that wouldnt affect metal cost and wrecks.

though i like the idea to pay more for units without lab , for example 20% more energy cost, since building in lab is true way.

else its just little illogical, why do we even need labs if units can be built just in fields with other mobile units.

paying more for the same units will make sense in early T2 stage witth given engie or with reclaimed lab, or just in the front, when you need it urgently.

[midnight trout]

wouldn't solve 'hound meta' as they just park it next to their conturrets at home to build t2 whatevers
a field construction tax as a multiplier is interesting though, but at that point you might as well go the T2 lab tech lock

[hybrid bone]

I'd rather not have differing costs for any units depending on where they're built personally. It's confusing and adds even more hidden stuff to remember.

[sacred tangle]

making the units built by the engineers un-assistable would keep their stats identical, while limiting people from spamming mass units with them

[hybrid bone]

Hmmm that's interesting but it would need to have a visual cue to represent it imo as it would also be a one off (nothing else can't be assisted to my knowledge?)

But you got me thinking about this again so maybe instead of directly building units it could place a pad that costs 500m/2000e or something that can only produce one unit (so instead of 4 units it can produce 4 mini labs that each only produce one unit type).

[sinful yoke]

It wasn't "suddenly out of nowhere" it was due to commander wreck being lowered to 1250 from 2000 in comupdate.

[rotund canyon]

I don't think this feature is too much of "hidden" stuff.
It is also pretty logical, like you need additional tools and resource for it to make units without special lab.

I'm always up for entirely removing mobile units from mobile units tho. Just keep defense structures/mines for combat engineers and it will be just fine. Will be still useful, since you can make cheaper/faster con for a frontline.

[dusk oriole]

A build power cost modifier for "field built" units does seem simple and intuitive enough overall, but I think the issue is just that it doesn't actually solve anything. Wouldn't stop stuff like the Hound cheese (which has already been resolved anyway), and would only make their more intended purpose weaker.

Unless we start seeing Gunslinger or Termite rush somehow become the new meta, I think the only remaining issue is just dissatisfaction with the crosslab thing, right?

[sacred tangle]

How would bigger comwreck make sharing worse? You just do it earlier then

[sinful yoke]

It makes other plays viable since consul share is for a short window

[sacred tangle]

It makes not sharing more painful, kinda, but the advantage is there either way

[sinful yoke]

The less metal there is, the more advntge there is in share/coops

[sacred tangle]

Only if there's so much metal that everyone can tech by themselves

[dusk oriole]

Well before people had access to 1000 extra metal. That goes a long way to helping to pay for a T2 lab. And yeah, that was baasically what was happening.

But I guess it's still a learned strategy as well.
Especially when it's something you need to get your team in on, it always takes time for something like that to become adopted.

[hybrid bone]

I think it's intuitive only if there is some way to easily tell there is a difference other than comparing stats. Something like Mk2 at the end of the name and a slight visual cue like a stripe or a yellow/black striped halo to indicate they're the Mk2 version. (Which would also alert the opponent that they're facing a combat engy not necessarily a full lab)

[sinful yoke]

No, having more metal from combombs, getting t2 mexes faster etc snowballs very fast

[rotund canyon]

nah, i don't think its needed. It's just obvious to me that producion units without lab could take a little more resource, else why the labs are needed for at all??

[hybrid bone]

I think I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree on this one.

[sacred tangle]

Getting m from combombs means you can afford that t2, but those dont always happen. So sharing con/consul is still the usual smart thing

[tight tapir]

Thx for this!

I have played and watched about 15-25 since then... Haven't seen a single termite but tons of recluses since...

It's the right direction but not enough by a long way.

[primal bloom]

After playing with the changes for a while I feel like the consul nerf wasn't strong enough. Recluse are not as OP as hounds, but they are still too good a unit.

I still feel like sometimes I fight a lane and it doesn't even matter if I'm winning or losing in t1 phase. It only matters whether I get a consul from my ally or my lane opponent gets a consul from their ally and then whoever got it just steamrolls through the lane with recluse.

It's this feeling of my actions and performance not making any difference to the outcome of my lane that I hate the most. It's like I never played at all since consul sharing by allies was ultimately all that mattered for the outcome of the lane.

At least in early t2 8v8s it's still almost the only strong play. Sometimes you manage to survive long enough to get to t2 labs and then game is balanced again, but you still lost a lot of ground that has to be gained back.

[tropic eagle]

making t2 combat units should just not be possible without a lab, people have figured out that these things are possible and it kind ofbreaks the game. My preference is for no mobile units to be in the buildlist of consul or freaker, but at the most it should have utility things like radar and jammers. If recluse is removed, the meta will immediately shift to gunslinger, I guarantee it. The only fix is to remove every combat unit.

[simple shuttle]

I think I agree tbh

[tropic eagle]

If recluse existed as their actual role of a niche all-terrain unit it would be less bad, but they're amazingly good general-purpose units, on par with or perhaps even better than hounds because of how effectively they clear through groups of units

[simple shuttle]

yeah that kinda breaks a rule when you have all-terrain/amphib units that are super strong even on standard terrain

I think spiders got buffed at some point, although I forget how they used to be tbh

[pallid peak]

they were buffed by bugfixes

please keep the destroyers though, or I'll have to completely relearn riverrun ;P

[tropic eagle]

yeah, they didn't get stat buffs so it took a while for people to catch on, but the behavior of their missles changed significantly so they hit their shots way more consistently. Given that, their DPS and range is insanely high for their cost, better than any other T2 unit besides veh arty. But they can also skirmish, and are quite tanky, and have 87% EMP resist

[wooden apex]

They used to friendly fire each other something horrific.

[copper zodiac]

Wouldn't it be better to remove t2 units from the consul and twitcher, instead add t1 units?

[lone radish]

that seems reasonable. Any reason not to do that?

[dusk flint]

because t1 units suck if they aren't spam
why would I want to build t1 when I am at t2 except in niche cases

well that way they can replace t1 labs
I don't see why t1 labs need to be replaced by combat engineers

also I still don't get why everyone always complains about the consul but not the twitcher no matter what's done to the consul
like I hear the random "well fiends are really good too" and its like yeah okay but it just never seems on the same level, I check in on the sweat lobbies every now and again and it's always consuls being handed out, not twitchers
to me this seems more indicative of overtuned armada units than some inherent design issue surrounding combat engineers being able to build cheap t2 units

like, the guy who said gunslinger would be built if spider was removed is probably right
because gunslinger was designed to shit on t1
and the whole design issue at play here is "its stupid that 1 player can hand out 7 combat engineers and now the t1 phase of the game is completely over barely 8 minutes into the game"
what if we just had armada units built by combat engineers that traded favorably vs t1, but didn't wholly negate them
like
you know
how fiends are, which is, imo at least, why people want consuls, not twitchers

[fallen arrow]

Big change was that rockets follow terrain as well.

[sick comet]

This thread keeps going in circles wow would I be wrong in summarizing it by saying the problem is being able to pump out t2 units with out a lab from a very cheap movable unit that can be give t2 way before normally frontline t2 rather then a lab and the fact that the units it can build are also cheapish and effective at building t2 units made to destroy t1 units ?

[lone radish]

Yep, I think people just don't agree on the solution.

[scenic snow]

People want the consul to be able to build T2 combat units, and T2 armada units to dominate T1, and be economical to build, and not dominate the team game meta. All four of these cannot be true at the same time.

Their T2 units that don't dominate T1 are what, the sprinter and turtle? And that's only because those are so specialized that they're commonly considered bad units.

[simple shuttle]

fiends and gunslinger also imo. cost-effective sure, but not total domination like hounds

[simple mantle]

ZK had used the "making units in-world has very bad ui" excuse to get rid of affordable unit-making constructors

consul first got an EMP gun and iirc beefed up repair-only buildpower, and then later just got completely removed (regular cons are plenty enough for frontline work, and factories are there to make units). BAR could probably do something like rez (since it's already plentiful and available at t1 anyway)

unit-making by a mobile con still exists in zk because it is cool, but only on a T3 unit whose buildlist only contains a mix of janky and ungeneralist stuff

[vocal arch]

any units that actually take dmg would not be op, they can get dgun and would need the commander behind them to repair
spider are literally catapult against t1 tech

[shy cargo]

Agree, keep T1 con on build list tho.

[nova topaz]

One time I heard Eural rage in voice for 10 minutes because someone gave him a Twitcher lol.

[midnight trout]

yup, as said before it's a 'free T2 lab' >>> T1 lab even if it's weird units. combat engies should either have T2 options locked behind owning a T2 lab, or just be restricted to buildings & utility units. Anything will just boil down to pass the parcel.

[dusk flint]

Sounds insanely cringe
But kind of illustrates what I am saying, yeah. People in this thread lump Twitcher and Consul together, but in the actual game people know that Consul is preferable because Armada is bullshit

Consul gives you bullshit Armada units and Twitcher gives you... Fiends (ok), Ducks (niche), Termites (lol) and Commandos (lol). And players know damn well which is more valuable

[undone depot]

There're cor units that'd be comparable in effectiveness vs t1 relative to spoders and gunslinger, but adding them to twitchers would do about as much harm as it would do good

[harsh scarab]

what if you literally swapped their build lists, faction units and all
like consul being able to build fiends
for the lols

[undone depot]

People would want twitchers and be salty if they got consuls. So the same meta, different engineer making the units

[dusk flint]

kek

[sick comet]

Combat engineers are not meant to be unit makers they are fully meant for support In the area of fixing broken equipment in combat and perhaps build new equipment of the fly. I think making them fully support such as building Nanos jammers radar and other such things and as well as being very good for patching up units would see them still offering lots of utility but also making it so they cant replace a lab

[undone depot]

The "good for patching up units" part would be hard fore something which also builds units, due to competition from rezbot, which has nearly double the cost-effectiveness of a nano, while also being fast and stealthy. For anything to compete on the same plane as those, it needs to either have absurd bp for its price or provide some other form of value while it's repairing. In printer's case, we gave it "pretty cost-effective" bp, but also the ability to repair+reclaim while moving and the durability to eat a decent amount of damage while repairing.

[sick comet]

I mean you can make other units deal less damage to different things could you not do the something like that to the combats engineers ability to repair

Also personally I think rez bots do slightly to many things well for one unit

[undone depot]

Anything which directly interacts with buildpower can't really have adjustments as far as i'm aware. I would also make unit descriptions unclear, as currently you can look at bp and say "this unit with 100 bp heals things half as fast as that unit with 200 bp and always be correct

[undone depot]

I usually describe rezbots as "the most op unit which will never be nerfed." In t1, bots absolutely need it to be op so they can compete with vehs. However, it makes designing anything which is meant to compete with them while also having unique aspects a living hell

[dusk oriole]

It seems a shame to remove the T2 units from combat engi, but the arguments for it do make sense.
The key thing is that they really can't have any unit that excels at fighting T1.
I do really like them having the "special utility units" available for forwards construction, such as amphib and all terrain units, but the Recluse is too good at bullying T1, and I'd rather see the Termite buffed than bringing the Recluse down.

( Or at least, the Recluse shouldn't be nerfed to the degree of loosing to T1, purely for the sake of combating a cheese strat based on bypassing the need for it's lab)

It's been kinda nice having Recluse actually be worth building since it's buff. Would rather see the Termite buffed to make all terrain combat equally viable for both factions.

So in that sense, I'd sooner vote to remove both Recluse and Termite from the combat engis.

[undone depot]

then we would just need to address the gunslinger in the room

[dusk oriole]

Mhmm. I feel like that needs addressing anyway.

It may or may not be a problem if people attempted to Consul rush it, but even if not, it existing on the build list basically garuntees that it can never be improved as a regular lab built unit.

[undone depot]

people tried consul rushing gunslingers right when the initial tweak for removing hounds was made. It generally saw moderate success, but recluse just worked better so they supplanted the sad yeehaw

[dusk oriole]

If we ever see Decoy commander rushes, then that's at least worth it for a while, just for getting to experience that. xD

Perhaps we can trade out the spider bots and gunslinger, in exchange for more diverse static options.

[undone depot]

decoy comms seem like something exceptionally unlikely to be built unless their price tag is absolutely slashed

[dusk oriole]

Let them build the other laser towers, and give Consul the Ferret, just to match Twitcher having the SAM.

[undone depot]

the ferret is an utterly abysmal unit in 99% of cases. it basically shouldn't be compared to SAM, as its only "real" use case is sniping a transport from cloak

[sick comet]

I feel like it would also force a more well though rework of some worse units to remove building from consuls and twitchers

[sick comet]

Change descriptions to match it can be done

[dusk oriole]

Mhmm. That's what I meant about removing Gunslinger from Consul. Being in a combat engi unit list, is an inherent limiter on how powerful a unit is allowed to be.
Hounds were already a mainstream favourite, so the concept of nerffing them to fit the Consul was a non-option.
But for something never used like the Gunslinger, "We can't buff this because it would make Consul OP" isn't so unlikely a thing.

[sick comet]

I think a point I would like to make is no matter how you change the lists there will be some problem with building units because of how much more efficient and cheap the combat engineers are some might be less problematic but there will alwybe a problem

[undone depot]

this is again assuming it's even possible, which is unclear, but the only pseudo-solution we currently have have is strapping a nano on top and giving it bp which can only repair things, which is kinda starting to become a common solution for "we don't know how else to make this unit work", and i'm not sure that's a good thing

[sick comet]

Me when there's no anit tank in a war game

[undone depot]

also, consul already has ferrets, it's just not listed on the website. I had a laugh about it while speccing a match a few days ago when i realized, upon seeing someone build one

[dusk oriole]

Oh, lol. That explains that then.

[undone depot]

if engies were to have units/t2 units removed, t1 and t2 popups would both be nice additions (though t2 popups op for defending anything that doesn't outrange them). I still feel rezbots would be far less op options to have on engies than t2 units. The things have 78 speed. It's not like they take long to reach the frontline anyway.

t1 radar/jammer would be valuable as well, given the t2 versions are often not worth the price, or radar/jamming is need urgently and you don't have time to make t2 version

[sick comet]

I want to see combat engineers used on the Frontline as they should for support

For static and radar and jammers and all those things it would a lot more depth to combat

[dusk oriole]

The T1 pop-up would be really nice to have. I've definitely wanted that in the past.
Stuck choosing between a Beamer or the popup artillery, means they actually don't have the best quick response Porc options.

[sick comet]

Maybe as more tanky reclaimers as well would from t2 labs

Also people say x unit becomes worthless if you don't have it on list that's an argument for as then it forces a rework of the unit to make it have a use

[dusk oriole]

For Tanky reclaim, I do actually use Decoy coms, on occasion.
Cloakable and high build power. 4000hp.
Plus if your enemy try to "seize the moment" and rush it, then it's often a mistake on their part.

[sick comet]

Yeah but that's also a bigger investment

[dusk oriole]

Is situational. I'd use it more if the things didn't take so long to get to the front.
I've had an enemy dive and focus my fake com before, opening themselves up to the rest of my forces that they presumably didn't expect me to charge through the "death explosion" zone. Worked out really nicely. Just very rare to get the chance.

[undone depot]

if you have the "release candidate units" modoption enabled, cor t2 vehs has that, and it's kinda most of the unit's identity. It'd be fairly awkward for the combat engies to "copy" it

[sick comet]

I think in general the entire unit base need a rebalance from the ground up because currently there's a few units that do everything it should be more like each unit should be really good for one use with some having maybe two but Thier slightly less good at both

[dusk oriole]

If the whole issue with T2 units was resolved, it might actually be interesting to see the Consul buck faction conventions, by being made a bit tankier but slower, than the Twitcher. ( A tiny compensation for it still having crosslab access to T1 infantry and AA bots)

Not to the same degree as the Printer. Just as a small thing to reduce the gap.
Would make the Butler Arms fast option, same as the Twitcher, just with the build list/repair utilities reversed.

🤷‍♂️

[undone depot]

i still think increasing the price of engies but keeping the bp/cost ratio the same wouldn't fix the sharing issue, but would at least make it more of a decision to be made rather than a no-brainer, while still keeping them useful for people who already have t2 labs

[sick comet]

I think just remove consul make butler the combat engineer first off is a good first step

[undone depot]

not having a resonably-efficient source of bp from t2 lab is a massive nuisance for developing your t2 eco and a major reason printer was created

[sick comet]

I mean having combat engineers able to build nanos kind of solves that I use them for that

[undone depot]

i was responding to the proposal of removing consul. arm t2 vehs wouldn't have an engi.

[waxen copper]

So same as base game cortex?

[undone depot]

that's the entire reason printer exists, yes. because not having one sucks.

just because i don't play arm doesn't mean i want arm to be stuck dealing with that situation

[waxen copper]

Honestly the best way to develop your t2 eco isn't with combat engies, but with transports and con turrets

[undone depot]

if transporting con turrets wasn't a massive nuisance, and if you had like 3 transports going at the same time, yeah

[waxen copper]

Yes, it's micro intensive and not really suited for frontliners, but frontliners can also just buy mobile bp from backliners, and on a lane map i guess it would be a pain. Honestly, i would see it as one of the tradeoffs for going vics over bots when considering how much stronger vics are compared to bots these days

[undone depot]

i'd much prefer balance differences to focus more on things which are stronger or weaker, rather than "both can do something about equally effectively, but it's really annoying to do it with one of them"

[sick comet]

Make the butler the new one is what I was saying

[undone depot]

so what happens to arm t2 bots? Do both labs have the same unit?

[sick comet]

What I was suggesting is get rid of the combat engineer from t2 vehs and put it in the bot lab for arm

[undone depot]

what would that accomplish?

[sick comet]

Get rid of the cross lab unit problem and give bots away to get better build power from t2

[undone depot]

cross lab units are, like, 10% of the problem, and butlers are a great source of bp, particularly for spamming arm op windmills

That swap would pretty much just make arm bots the mandatory t2 lab for techers, and make arm t2 vehs even better than it currently is for frontliners

[sick comet]

Yeah I guess but I was saying at the very least it gets rid of the cross lab problembut your right about those other problems

I am going to say again I thythe only option is make combat engineers unable to build units and be support like actually combat engineers

[undone depot]

and i still feel that units which don't decimate t1 units are fine to have as options

[dusk oriole]

The amphib bots, Sprinter and Fiend all seem fine to me.
Fiend is still good at fighting T1, but tends to require sacrificing a number of them in the process. Doesn't just safely dominate both T1 units and defences without losses like the Hound did.
Sprinter is... an option? I guess. Would rather have Pawns most of the time.

The amphib bots allow for some potentially quite powerful surprise rushes, but you're never just going to wipe out a team with some rushed Platypus.
A dozen early Platy is not remotely the snowballing threat that a dozen early hounds can be.

[tight tapir]

Could a unit have 2 nanos? It would get creepy here.... I know!
1 nana can reclaim and repair and one can only repair...

I don't know if it makes sense in any kind or form. The idea of repairing faster than doing other stuff itself is interesting, but not necessarily good.

[waxen copper]

i don't see a reason why it couldn't be done, but it would have to be an amalgamation of units like the printer

[midnight trout]

that would break convention, and frankenbuilders are hard to handle in many ways

[rotund canyon]

i don't think changing fido to spoders fix a lot. It is still meta to make consuls and now spoders instead hounds...
of course its not that op on flat terrain , but still looks like a bad design for me having T2 units without T2 lab.

I'd try removing all T2 mobile units from engies and give T2 porc instead may be.

The extreme difference in cost between T2 lab and T2 engie makes those field labs silly not to use them...

offtopic:
Buff the T2 static radar! 600m for slightly more than mobile radar is just so weird... reduce cost by 50% at least! And give it to engies

[vocal arch]

sprinter on consul was an amazing change, the issue is with range units that t1 tech can't do anything about that come at the front at 7 mins, it's pointless to even try build t1 army if you know the dude against you will have early consul

[shy cargo]

Sprinter would be good. It's worse than spooder and Fiend by a lot. Finally gives Core the edge at one thing.

[alpine laurel]

it does currently have sprinter (platypus and sprinter replace hound since last patch)

[undone depot]

just build t1 plasma arty ecks dee

[dusk flint]

just sharing this because I feel like it

join sweat lobby, its full so decide to spectate until a slot opens up
koom
back and forth early game, things looking spicy
one side starts building consuls and handing them out
one side doesn't
spoodurs everywhere just demolish all t1 in their path
team starts raging and trying to kickban the guy who went cortex instead of armada vehicles for eco role
team with cortex eco player predictably loses
lose all desire to play

[spare nacelle]

Honestly. Lets keep it consistent.

If Consul is a vehicle unit that makes bots
Then twitcher should be a bot that makes vehicles.

Salamanders, Alligators. Tigers if youre feeling risky about balance,

Either we do that, or we take all the units out and put all the defensive turrets and Structures in both of them
buff their buildpower a bit
Make let them Revive units as an option but most lobbies are complaining about this and its getting to a point where its not even about combat engies anymore, just Faction balance

[sacred tangle]

They already can make t2 radar. And it's a good building, sees farther than anything else

[spare nacelle]

youre missing the point I think, Its too expensive for something that gets one shot by a juno

I never see anyone build frontline t2 radar or jammers, they almost always die too quick to be worth it

[midnight trout]

I do but only with a twitcher there, who literally just spams the things out

[dusk flint]

I always have twitchers behind behemoths building radar
in fairness I'd probably just build t1 radar were it on the twitcher's build list though

[dusk flint]

I don't see why it's either Bad Option X or Bad Option Y
if combat engineers as a concept are going to exist, they should offer build options that t2 cons don't
if balance is out of whack because (units engineer Y) has access to is far and away better than (units engineer X) has access to, then the units are what need to be looked at, not the engineers
and I especially don't like vehicles giving you most of bot, or vice versa, and I really want to see less of that, not more

the fundamental issue here is various armada units are too good given the level of gatekeeping on them and they will keep being too good until they are nerfed or there is a bigger gate to wall access to them
I don't think people have a problem with spoodurs being good as long as you have to build a t2 bot lab to access them
but they are infuriatingly powerful vs t1 and that's all you can realistically leverage in the time frame they come out with as long as consul can build them
just look at the game I linked, the cortex eco guy spamming sheldons from his t2 lab couldn't keep up because 3 different players were spamming spiders each from their own consol

twitchers aren't a problem because fiends trade well into t1 but t1 aren't completely helpless against them, and the alternatives are units that are either niche (duck, commando) or garbage (termite)

consols will continue being broken until you revise it and the units it has access to such that it can only build weaker, short ranged units that t1 can realistically contend with, and niche units

[dusk oriole]

Agreed.
I don't exactly want that the all terrain options be removed, but I'd much rather they were than Recluse having to be nerfed to the point that T1 can efficiently counter it.
So the conclusion I come to is that they need to go.
Remove Recluse and Gunslinger. And remove Termite for parity.
Other units can be considered to replace them whether T2 or not, but they should be checked against their impact on T1 and how safely they skirmish.

(And then buff Termite... >_> )

Gunslinger can be swapped for Decoy Com. A very "Armada" unit in theme, no risk of cheese strat rushing, and also one that would actually benefit quite a bit from the ability to construct it from unpredictable locations.

[rotund canyon]

it costs like 3 mobile radars, which are MOBILE and their los/radar is only little less. I remember this conversation and I was told that T2 radar cost is inherited from ancient BA times, and i think everyone agreed that this thing can have a buff. Currently it very rare building, though the intel in game is critical. And spamming T1 radars and mobiles are just better in 9 of 10 cases.

[waxen copper]

i've always found the argument of radar giving LoS weak the way it is currently setup, static radar just does not give enough LoS to justify it over the mobile sources of LoS

[rotund canyon]

Yeah i guess it need own thread tho. This is not about engineers

[vocal arch]

you can build radar at the front, it will give you vision for rockets, arties ect... very op

[waxen copper]

you can also make a tick, a missile truck, or a grunt, giving you vision as well, and those can move

[rotund canyon]

or mobile radar, which is ~ the same at 1/3 cost and with ability to move

wait a second. It's not 1/3 cost. It's like 1/5 (energy 2k vs 19k lol)
and sight range for mobile radar MORE than static.

[rotund canyon]

current tweakdef in lobster lobby seems very op to me
scorpions instead mbile units looks very fair imo

[midnight trout]

basically 'defence engineer' more than 'combat engineer'

Reposting here for reference / ease of players finding

ewphcm1jb25zdWwgPSB7CmJ1aWxkb3B0aW9ucyA9IHsKWzE4XSA9ICJhcm1qYW10IiwKWzE5XSA9ICJhcm1yYWQiLApbMjBdID0gImFybWRyYWciLApbMjFdID0gImFybXBlZXAiLApbMjNdID0gImFybXBiIiwKfQp9LApjb3JmYXN0ID0gewpidWlsZG9wdGlvbnMgPSB7ClsxOF0gPSAiY29ycmFkIiwKWzE5XSA9ICJjb3JqYW10IiwKWzIwXSA9ICJjb3JkcmFnIiwKWzIzXSA9ICJjb3JmaW5rIiwKWzI0XSA9ICJjb3J2aXBlIiwKfQp9Cn0

tweakunit string, not tweakdef. All T2 is removed, some defence utilities swapped in, and T1 airscouts.

ewphcm1jb25zdWwgPSB7CmJ1aWxkb3B0aW9ucyA9IHsKWzE4XSA9ICJhcm1qYW10IiwKWzE5XSA9ICJhcm1yYWQiLApbMjBdID0gImFybWRyYWciLApbMjFdID0gImFybXBlZXAiLApbMjNdID0gImFybWNsYXciLAp9Cn0sCmNvcmZhc3QgPSB7CmJ1aWxkb3B0aW9ucyA9IHsKWzE4XSA9ICJjb3JyYWQiLApbMTldID0gImNvcmphbXQiLApbMjBdID0gImNvcmRyYWciLApbMjNdID0gImNvcmZpbmsiLApbMjRdID0gImNvcm1hdyIsCn0KfQp9
Same tweak, but with maws & claws instead of pitbulls & scorpians

[shy cargo]

Doesn't that just make it useless, may as well go straight for T2 con?

[rotund canyon]

T2 con is expensive, slow and fragile
engie also can lay mines

[shy cargo]

I just can't see myself ever paying 250m for a slightly better T1 con when I could pay 470m for T2 con

[midnight trout]

then, mission accomplished? the game is back to as it should be, but with a non-OP option for defensive fronts

[shy cargo]

It's not accomplished if the unit is totally useless to the point where it's not built

[waxen copper]

having a fast, mobile, and more cost effective (than t2 cons) unit that can quickly place down defensive and utility structures is not something i would call useless, but it is now a utility unit and not a lab replacement

[shy cargo]

The tweakdef idea is also yet another nerf to Cortex as cloakable pitbull at 6-7 mins is way better than scorpion.

[midnight trout]

it's why I asked for replays. if it turns out pitbull comparatively OP as an option, they can be removed again. it's nothing a T2 con couldn't do with a tiny outlay more though.

[undone depot]

Wait people actually cloak their pitbulls?

[quiet elbow]

just leave them on autocloak (I also do this with rattles but it doesn't actually do much

[nova topaz]

honestly idec if pitbulls better bc cloak, being able to make t2 popups with twitchers would be great. If it is the case then just nerf pitbulls cloak cost so you cant use it at t1 all the time lol

[real oak]

Yes

[turbid remnant]

Or buff scorpion, give it tracking or a ton of health or something

[waxen copper]

scorpion already has tracking

[real oak]

It even comes with a faster projectile

[midnight trout]

it is a better turret, just not with cloaking

[shy cargo]

Walking your T1 army into a cloaked pitbull 7 mins in is gonna be gg

[midnight trout]

yes, just like they do their ferrets and rattlesnakes /s
Klu: what is stopping people doing that with a bought T2 arm con anyway?

[shy cargo]

300m extra + way slower speed probably adds an extra 90 seconds

[undone depot]

I have literally never been caught off-guard by any of those cloaked in a match, as far as i can remember

[nova topaz]

same lol

the one time I almost did, their power ran out and it flickered and I saw it and set target and killed it with sheldons lol

[midnight trout]

con delivery is a thing, if the lobby doesn't have that in gear odds are a slightly faster popup won't change much

[shy cargo]

You won't have sheldons vs a 7 min pitbull

[nova topaz]

ok so how do you have enough power to build and then cloak the 7 min pitbull? serious question. This is minute 7 eco, you don't exactly have energy to spare at 7 minutes lmao.

[shy cargo]

Because it's so cheap it only costs the same as 3 janus

[nova topaz]

how much is the cloak cost tho?

[midnight trout]

tbh I think most people forget it's even possible, it is very rare to see in the wild

if pitbulls prove OP people will just spam more scouts, if meta shift doesn't dance it out, then either cloak cost raised or removed from list again. it's an experimental change, let the experiment play out please

[shy cargo]

People haven't discovered auto cloak in settings yet

[nova topaz]

yeah thats the thing about t2 popups is they kinda lose to grunt spam lol, so it's not like there's no counterplay here

[undone depot]

I'm 99% sure consul pitbulls won't be any stronger than twitcher scorps, so the experimental change will be fine as far as faction balance

[scenic snow]

twitcher can put scorpions in better spots than consul can put pitbulls

[nova topaz]

14k energy upfront for this thing is a LOT for 7 mintes lmfao, are you sure this is something we will have to contend with and it will be unbalancing the factions?

ok, so let's say you're right. How does it become a nerf to core in t1 to have a cloaked t2 popup on Arm that will uncloak against the first thing that it shoots at, versus Core's which is just shooting everything and killing more things in one hit?

idk, I remain unconvinced that this will become some crazy unba meta thing to do. It only works as a surprise tool against a few units, and then the opponent retreats and stops attacking into it and either goes tech 2 or makes a gauntlet (probably go tech 2 lol). I don't think the cloak is gonna be the deciding factor here.

[real oak]

Sabot isn’t strong enough to hard counter t1 units
There are units that can take on sabots
Just not cost effectively

[nova topaz]

I mean either way they both die to grunt spam or tick spam unless there's t1 porc too lol

[real oak]

Plus to get that sabot up pre t2 unit stage you would need to have a very protected area to begin with

[nova topaz]

It feels like you're talking about both factions' popups when you say that bc their costs are very similar, altho core is the only one with sabots, arm's is gauss which is functionally the same I guess X3c but yeah you're right.

[real oak]

Yes both sabots are very similar to each other

[dusk flint]

I'm not thrilled with the idea of combat engineers losing the ability to make all t2 units, but if that's what it takes to end the sweat lobby consol meta I will take it at this point
I am at that awkward ts where I can't join noob lobbies but sweat lobbies aren't much fun either
This shit is why people make alts

[midnight trout]

I'd prefer ideally letting T2 be built still, but only if the owner has a T2 lab, which breaks convention / expectation

[dusk flint]

In my perfect world,
Consol builds only Armada vehicle units (jaguar, turtle, gremlin)
Twitcher loses Termite build option
Jag receives whatever light nerfs are necessary to make it not retarded to deal with by t1 units
Gremlins get buffs and cost increases so it requires either a really healthy advsolar economy or 1 fusion to churn out/use in its cloaked capacity, possibly coupled with shifting seismic sensors around in some way or its cloak specifics adjusted in some way. Maybe make cameras give some sort of "true vision" that shows even stealthed units, or give them a small seismic sensor
Turtle gets buffs so its worth building ever

[nova topaz]

Yeah I agree with what you're saying. It pretty much stops pushes at t1 but you can't exactly attack people with them. Except maybe on DSD but I dont actually know lol. (UPDATE: Soooooooorta? Can only hit one mex, both factions can do it tho)

The many reasons I'm not convinced t2 popups on the combat engineers would be a nerf to Cortex include:

1. This is something t2 cons of all types can already do, making units is something t2 cons can't do.

2. Pitbull cloaking isn't that valuable at 7 minutes unless you have it set to hold fire for ambushing a big army, because their effective range is already further away than most t1 units can see, including itself.

3. No radar stealth, is a building so it can't move, once seen its ghost is forever visible on radar. T1 arty does not outrange its gun, but outranges its Line of Sight.

4. Scorpions can one-shot rocket bots, arty, whistlers, and light tanks. Pit Bulls can't even one shot Blitzes. Which one is more valuable to you is highly debatable.

5. If the enemy techer went Mausers or Sheldons then both factions' t2 popups lose.

6. a Cor Bot techer would have access to spy bots for EMP.

[nova topaz]

7. 10 thugs kicks its ass even if it gets to shoot them the whole time they're approaching. :/ It would just be even worse if it waited until they got close to ambush them. It doesn't have damage falloff or anything.

This is not a valuable 7 minute play. If you build a 2nd one, you could have built a gauntlet and the gauntlet would have the range to hit more things. I just don't see how Pit Bulls are supposedly so OP because they can cloak.

[shy cargo]

I think fiend/sprinter + pitbull/scorpion but remove other T2 units would nerf it enough without making it totally useless.

[carmine ridge]

Are the amphib units problematic? I haven’t seen anyone build them with engineers outside strait and it’s usually by the guy who made the lab

[shy cargo]

I've not seen any problems except Hound + Spooder

[undone depot]

and if those were removed, gunslinger

[shy cargo]

Yeah

[nova topaz]

I think amphib units would be fine too.

[wooden apex]

i assume no one's actually tried gunslinger only yet? i can see how it might be op, but am not convinced. if i had to go in blind i'd probably say fiends/ sprinters or no mobiles at all or t1 mobiles only

[nova topaz]

Having faced gunslingers only, I think they'd be very OP.

[shy cargo]

Engineer shouldn't be a replacement for T2 lab. Giving it some T1.5 class units (Fiend/Sprinter) is fine. Gunslinger/Hound/Spooder are too op.

[nova topaz]

The problem with Gunslinger is if you don't have a critical mass of t1 units, they can very easily micro to dodge just about anything while flinging down shot after shot, and they are also very good at sniping commanders, so that on its own would be enough to make them too good. They don't scale that great, but you don't need more than a handful before it's like "oh my god, what can I even do??"

Coms can't micro to dodge thug shots but Gunslingers can. They can even dodge medium tank shots. They're surprisingly agile for such a slow unit. They're like bullet hell protagonists, they're moving slow but the only thing all those bullets are doing to them is increasing their Graze counter.

[wooden apex]

yeah, but if you don't have critical mass of t1 units and the other guy has gotten a consul and paid for the relatively expensive gunslingers maybe they deserve to win, plus it might actually give gunslinger a point to existing

though yeah, I'm more so thinking out loud than arguing, i'm happy with the prospect that they're i ck as well

[midnight trout]

I'd pay good money to see a reimu gunslinger

[rotund canyon]

the entire idea of making T2 units in field from engie at 1/10 lab cost is bad imo.
probably it could be fine to give T1 units. but not too much sense making them.
defense structures and mines are completely fine .
it is combat engineers overall

[dusk flint]

am I a joke to you

[rotund canyon]

they are way better at making defences than t2 cons due to their speed. so they are not useless i think. just not broken anymore

[midnight trout]

I mean would make sense on CCR

[nova topaz]

The entire problem here is that this is an option that Cortex can't match, so if it provides enough of an advantage that you'd be letting your team down if you didn't do it, it's too OP. You can get a Consul early enough that you barely have to make any t1 units, so if you started making Gunslingers on the front line, you could absolutely start their snowball effect while it's still very much a problem.

Everyone says they don't do this anymore, but they do actually still gain range from kills. The only thing that doesn't update is the default range circle, but if you give an attack order you can actually see their updated range circle. Here are two Gunslingers side by side attacking the same point on the ground. One is fresh, the other has 11 kills on thugs and medium tanks and an XP value of 0.08.

Even by default though, they outrange Commanders and are fast enough that a Commander that's been caught out by them is going to die. At the phase of the game where Commanders are necessary and powerful forces on the front line, any unit that's capable of having that much impact on commanders is going to be meta-centic, so it's too OP.

[midnight trout]

they do gain range, not sure why people say they don't

[tropic eagle]

Probably because it's too slow to ever be relevant

[nova topaz]

It's because when you hover over them or select them, the widget in charge of displaying range circle doesn't actually show it to you.

The difference is not small.

[midnight trout]

at full grind it's about 100 elmos iirc

[quiet elbow]

rocketbot grunt gets completely stomped by gunslingers; veh is the only real answer - like what t1 cor comp can actually fight slingers apart from lasher spam?

[dusk flint]

personally I can see how it could be a problem. a niche one, but one that could exist, but mostly because land based amphib units are op vs late t1/early t2 navy
but its a problem that exists in how the current amphib/naval unit dichotomy works, not necessarily a problem inherent to "twitchers can build ducks"
a very common tactic for myself on straits, for example, is going long sea, fast teching for bot t2, build t2 con and twitcher, then reclaiming bot lab and coming out swinging with 40 ducks with the easy early fusion, btfoing navy out of the entire sea, and then cementing my own control
I even have the option to rush t2 navy out of that if I want, because twitcher lets me build a t1 navy con, which lets me go right into t2 navy
so then I can project power onto land via missile ships

I've brought this up before though, see https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1160498835085340712

[tropic eagle]

4-5 pawns will easily kill a gunsliner

[nova topaz]

I am in Skirmish and I can test that theory.

[wooden apex]

but if we had t2 turret available... and put equal metal fiends to gunslinger and make them fight...

[waxen copper]

The argument of "gunslingers can be microed to dodge shots" isn't great since you can alos micro pawns and grunts to dodge shots. I've even posted a replay of mine in the past where 1 grunt was able to solo kill 2 medium tanks after having wiped out multiple mexes, cons, and plasma bots

[nova topaz]

Nope, I had them all flanking and surrounding, and the 5 pawns easily lost, and it's auto-regen is so fucking crazy that it killed them with about half its hp remaining and then it regenerated to this much while I was taking the screenshot. This was a fresh one, not even given xp.

[wooden apex]

as I've sort of noted, I'm open to the possibility that gunslinger is still op, they do outrange commanders, and you need to micro them to build up their range and take advantage of healing, but they're very expensive and I'm not convinced there aren't sufficient tactical responses...

[nova topaz]

Yeah, it's just that they can easily become a problem if they're built very early, and that means one of the only ways to get one that early is a Consul, and they are absolutely strong enough to become a meta-defining unit.

They have combat regeneration, so every half second they regain 2% of their HP. That's extremely powerful! If you don't have enough units to overwhelm their regen, they basically don't take attrition damage, so you're feeding their exp bar.

[wooden apex]

i appreciate there might be aiming and pushback changes that i haven't taken into account since last time i looked at gunslingers, but before i was scared if saw a handful of grunts/pawns or 3 fiends rushing at me

[tropic eagle]

ya you're right, i was able to kill a stationairy gunslinger with 4 pawns but it took 6 pawns to kill one that was being micro'd. Still, that's less than half the cost of a gunslinger, and it's a more useful and versitile force than a gunslinger

a gungslinger costs as much as 13 pawns, lol

[nova topaz]

The thing about Gunslingers is they can kill LLTs in 3 shots and they don't even get tickled. They invalidate t1 porc in ways few units can.

[tropic eagle]

hounds and recluses invalidate t1 porc in exactly the same way

[waxen copper]

tbf my thug ball can do the same
i just don't see gunslingers as being too problematic to deal with
and i was there when Enka was doing their wacky gunslinger rush shenanigans

[nova topaz]

Exactly. That's one of the reasons it's too OP to remain on the Consul, just like those two other units.

[wooden apex]

because for equal metal, you've got an option of defending or at least delaying the gunslingers or raiding. a gunslinger can't rush past per se

[tropic eagle]

ah yeah I completely agree, I dunk on gunslingers because I think they're severely underpowered units, but being able to build them on the front line at 7 minutes without a t2 lab would still be broken, nearly as much as hounds and recluses were. There's just no combat t2 unit you can give to mobile builders that won't be broken af

[wooden apex]

but hounds and spiders just generally shut down t1 defence and units across the board

[nova topaz]

Well, we can test it, but it still feels completely unfair to me that no matter what, an armada techer has an advantage because they have an option to give you Gunslingers. It might not have to be OP to be unbalanced.

[wooden apex]

i'd be happy with t1 only or just fiends/ sprinters, i just think testing these things is important and don't want to call something OP if people just won't adapt

[nova topaz]

It's not that they are impossible to counter, but in skilled hands, it's way too difficult to stop them if you're allowed to get them out early enough, and that means I'm still going to get yelled at for going cor if I'm ever in a techer position.

[dusk flint]

yes there is
its called fiends
this thread needs to stop pretending that this isn't an armada balance problem

[tropic eagle]

People forget recent metas too easily. For various reasons core bots fell out of a favor, but for a very long time fiends were considered one of the most broken units in the game, and they have received no balance changes. If more broken things are removed from consuls then twitchers making fiends will instantly become the meta and it will be the same situation again

[nova topaz]

Maybe so.

The way I see it, if Gunslingers are removed from the consul, you can much more easily justify giving it buffs. As far as I know, the only reason it hasn't received buffs yet is we're still waiting on the engine update that fixes impulse.

[wooden apex]

yeah, i have scars from playing armada against fiends meta so when people downplay them i reflexively twitch

[undone depot]

I've played against a few consul gunslingers early in the stages of this thread after welder tweak was made but before people knew to spam spoders. It was pretty not fun. Among the other things, lasher ball needs to be pretty big to actually kill a gunslinger through its hp regen without it being trivial for gunslinger to just close the distance+kill them, or disengage

[dusk flint]

thing Y was 'broken' (read: perceived as broken), so if thing X gets nerfed, we'll be back to thing Y again
I just don't agree
I use fiends all the time and they can get btfoed by kiting thugs and LLTs plenty easily unless you find holes in the units to plough through
microed spoodurs and hounds are unkillable by T1, fiends are not

[tropic eagle]

fiends are not supposed to be unkillable, they're easy-to-kill and cheap and fast, they are suicide bombers that leave no wrecks. With respect, if you think fiends are not powerful then you have not been playing this game long enough.

[dusk flint]

yes, they trade well vs t1, I've never denied that
it is still on a completely different level from hounds and spoodurs
and if you think otherwise I'd suggest you're high

[robust plover]

Fiends may be strong but lets not forget the resources you have to pump into them to keep the pressure up, as opposed to hounds where you make 10 and micro them, or gunslingers where only a couple are enough to fight while you then divert resources elsewhere

[rotund canyon]

actually they do leave wrecks, and a lot

[undone depot]

They just have a fast and valuable self-d which doesn't leave a wreck. Yeah, normal deaths leave wrecks/debris just like anything else

[rotund canyon]

that requires decent micro.
but yea, fiends are op, one of the best core units

[alpine laurel]

fiends are probably the best way to turn an early break through into a win

also very strong defensively

[tropic eagle]

they leave debris, they can't be rezzed. And when self-d is used they don't leave debris

[robust plover]

This is still, as another guy said above, an armada balance problem.
Because when the arguments for arm are "which of these units is not too op to put in engineer build list" and for cor being " which of these units is good enough to put in engineer build list", you know something is wrong

[undone depot]

a lot of the cor units are "this wouldn't be any less frustrating than hounds"

[rotund canyon]

just add no mobile units at all.
no lab = no units, very simple

[nova topaz]

I am actually watching a lobby where consuls have the tweak that removes all mobile units and it seems like everyone in it is a lot happier to not have to be doing the consul meta anymore lol

"Who needs a consul? Oh wait."

[midnight trout]

how this latest tweak plays out will be informative
oh it's up again?

[dusk flint]

anything to make the pain stop

[spare nacelle]

make combat engies have all t1 and t2 defenses
Every type of mine and wall as well

[rotund canyon]

may be add to twitcher rezz ability and consul more tanky to give some utility on the battlefield...

but i think with just T2 porc and mines it is already very useful.

[shy cargo]

Engi = mobile T1 lab works

[dusk flint]

even less reason to build minelayers
(._. )

[midnight trout]

my tweak does essentially that, with some support units
depending how it plays I may lean more into it

[rotund canyon]

minelayers are T1 and costs nothing

[nova topaz]

You know what, I like that idea.

[dusk flint]

so what
its still their shtick
they're minelayers
they lay mines

[spare nacelle]

I think this works for alot of reasons.

Defeneses in bar are already made to be purposely bad in alot of scenarios in favor of constant action and combat.

Nobody wants to use a t2 con to make pulsars pop ups and bulwarks on the frontline, its too expensive to lose early, it not fast like the engineers, its bp isnt good enough, you cant spam t2cons, t2 cons cant even make nanos.
SO MANY REASONS TO HAVE THIS CHANGE

[nova topaz]

The thing about minelayers is, they don't see much use because they come so early that building mines actually costs a fuckload of energy that you don't yet have - not to cloak them, to build the mines - but by the time you get to t2, you definitely have the energy, so they see a lot more use after t2 with Twitchers and such for that reason.

[dusk flint]

yeah I get why they aren't desireable, I build mines almost exclusively via the twitcher
I just hate seeing a design space cannibalized and a unit effectively sent to the graveyard because people get excited to overload combat engineers with support utility left vacant by the ability to build t2 units

[tropic eagle]

mines will remain underused until juno is reworked, but that's another topic

[spare nacelle]

People underestimate the t2 walls tbh
Ive went into a cheat lobby to test, t2 walls change so many different scenarios greatly in your favor.

[nova topaz]

What if the consul/twitcher couldn't build mines but could build minelayers? :3c

[dusk flint]

kek

[nova topaz]

Ironically, when it comes to mines, it's Cortex has that has the best cross-lab functionality. :3c Arm has to make Decoy Coms to make mines from a bot lab.

[dusk flint]

poor armada botlab
vehicles just gets most of their good stuff for free
so unfair 😦

[nova topaz]

Well, seems like the sweats love the consul with no units but can build porc :3c

The quality of games I'm spectating seems much, much higher. They're closer games that have a lot more back and forth and the pacing feels a lot better. Consuls fucked with the pacing of the game and caused abrupt power shifts that I don't think was good for the game.

To me, adding t2 popups to the Twitcher and Consul just feels like a natural extension of what they were already supposed to be doing and what I was mainly using a Twitcher for anyway, so it's a good change.

needing a t2 con to make t2 popups made it take way too long to build them in the numbers you need in FFA, and even when you did build them in large numbers they were never op. Absolutely gonna throw my weight behind making that a permanent change. It was really cool that they could build units, but it was too OP.

[spare nacelle]

I mean, I feel like t1 units should still be on the table to build, but everything else , every defense building im all for it

[nova topaz]

Oh my god. I'm speccing a high level game on Koom and there's a cor techer. ; ; omg

[dusk flint]

let's be real
the only t1 unit worth building after t2 labs are up is grunts, ticks, pawns, and rezbots

[spare nacelle]

Janus says hello

[nova topaz]

Yeah, and Twitchers can still make grunts and t1 aa bots in this mod so they're still available through twitchers.

Still seeing recluses get built, in fact that's because I just saw arm t2 bot lab get built. Arm t2 bot lab is back in the game too op.

[midnight trout]

it's definitely the right way to go IMO

[spare nacelle]

yeah add pitbulls and gaus cannons to twitchers and consuls. Like asap'

[undone depot]

pitbull = gauss, scorpion = sabot

[midnight trout]

I'll see about making it a proper modoption, if there's not enough traction to get it as global change in foreseeable future

[nova topaz]

God I hope the GDT approves it because the game feels so, so much better without Consul chicanery.

[alpine laurel]

I think it's still worth playing and testing for a few weeks, metas sometimes take a while to evolve. for example the pro meta after the com update was all bots for like 2+ weeks because people thought rezbots were op

[dusk flint]

they are op though
and that's a good thing

[alpine laurel]

you have missed the point

[dusk flint]

if you convey it poorly don't expect it to be understood well :p

[undone depot]

meta was rezbot comzilla until comupdate 2 fixed it

[midnight trout]

it's been evident that something has been needed for ages though. also putting it as modoption codifies it as a standard rather than the half dozen different 'remove hounds' solutions that rolled up

[alpine laurel]

nah it was whistler balls

[tropic eagle]

I think we have, consul meta has been goin on for a very long time. We've already seen that changing hounds->recluse had almost no effect because the units have similar enough strengths. This makes it clear that the problem is not hounds, but that the problem is powerful t2 units being unchained from 3k metal factories

[undone depot]

this was the other option, yes

[alpine laurel]

I am saying that making combat engineers very strong pure defensive units may have unforseen negative impacts on the gameplay that will not be apparent until further testing

[tropic eagle]

If it wasn't hound it would be recluse, if it isn't recluse it will be gunslinger, if it's not gunslinger it will be fiend - all of these units are too powerful to be built without the investment of a lab.

[dusk flint]

disagree
if t1 can kill it and not be kited forever, it's mitigatable
there's a reason people call you a troll for giving them a twitcher and not a consol

[midnight trout]

thing is they do nothing that a t2 con and t1 con can't already do, in terms of porc, and they're available same game time anyway

[alpine laurel]

it's much riskier and higher opportunity cost to keep a t2 con on the frontlines building porc. speed and cost of the builder are very important on a t1 eco.

anyway I think front gameplay has generally gotten much more defense post com update, and I can see a future where the front meta is buying engineers for pop ups and just porcing until t2 units come anyway, worsening existing gameplay trends

[tropic eagle]

I think that's a very reasonable concern, and any defensive additions to combat engies should be done carefully and quickly nerfed if they become a big problem. But it's less of a concern than the cancerous frontline t2 production that they enable right now

[nova topaz]

Well, so far, that isn't happening. The thing is, to have the BP you need to actually make the porc in a reasonable time before it gets countered by the units people tend to make first in t2 anyway, you need more than one.

I agree it's a reasonable concern because that's a definite possibility, but it feels like the way to get there won't be applicable to every map and it's gated by cost as it is. By the time you're able to get enough t2 porc online for it to be a problem, you really should be t2 yourself already, so it wouldn't really change the game at all.

[midnight trout]

if meta goes to global hard turtle (in general, strait will probably go right there) then T2 popups aren't essential by any means, they just fit the 'defence and support engineer' role well
rushing any amount of T2 porc would be really impractical for a T1 econ

[shy cargo]

The tweakdef is undoubtedbly better than the Consul rush meta, so if it's a choice between that and nothing then make it so.

But what I've been seeing is almost no consul/twitcher play at all. Add some more utility back or perhaps make it a tiny bit cheaper.

[nova topaz]

I did just test t2 popups against 10 thugs and the thugs won with little effort. Yeah, there was no other porc or units backing it up, but I'm not convinced it'll be a problem yet. T2 porc is easily counterable with t1 spam, the main thing it does is make it difficult to push through a chokepoint, where volume of spam is limited by space. In other words, Strait front, which kinda badly needs some way to not die immediately, so I find that acceptable.

I am seeing consuls and twitchers be used, but I'm not seeing people buy them, and honestly I don't think that's a problem. The goal really shouldn't be "let's make them so people buy the units but don't overuse their ability to make porc" -- they're t2 units, we can let them remain t2 units that people don't have to buy every game there's a techer.

[midnight trout]

it has utility, maybe too much even still. we're seeing a return to the 'no mobile lab' game and it's a good thing, they should be bought for edge use cases not every game as standard like T2 cons

[nova topaz]

oh my god I'm watching Kuchy tech on DSD with Cor Vehicles, specifically for Quakers.

MBT dgunned the geo, so that seems like it might not work out, but that was the plan.

omg no, he did it. the madman. The quakers in fact did force the enemy mausers to retreat

[undone depot]

quaker rework actually strong? hype

[nova topaz]

I just watched Kuchy delete 4 commanders in a row with Quakers!

[dusk flint]

then we decided the most valuable quaker strat was facerolling into med tanks with them
it worked less well than expected, cortex clearly needs another fifty buffs imo

[nova topaz]

Well, we'll get out answers if the Twitcher/Consul being able to make popups is OP soon because Zow is doing his best to abuse them.

Ohhhhhhhhh boy, Zow is turret creeping on Bismuth with Twitchers and Scorpions.

It's hard to tell if he can only do this because Seagull has Mausers but holy crap, he's building them in front of their bases. That's not even his lane, he wandered off and started making Scorpions everywhere.

"That's not Zow, Zow's bottom. That's Seagull."
"No."
"Oh. Ohhh."
"Zow's top too."
"I see."

On the one hand, this isn't a matter of selling them to people. On the other... they certainly feel like Combat Engineers!

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=39c362657ca2737bae42d829d3e42a78

The second we told Zow twitchers and consuls could make t2 popups, he said, "Twitcher can make Viper?" Juniper said, "yes :3c" and Zow laughed. "They need to stop trying to break the game."

and then Zow got to t2 and made a whole bunch of Twitchers, and with them he was able to immediately stabilize middle, which was getting pushed hard by Janus Whistler after killing three commanders, and then he walked the twitchers up north and started turret creeping the entire north side until his team won.

[sacred tangle]

maybe the t2 popups were removed from their buildlists back in the day, for a reason

[midnight trout]

I daresay he's the man to break it if anyone is

[nova topaz]

I MEAN YEAH, THIS IS JUST WHAT ZOW DOES IT'S HARD TO SAY IF IT'LL BE META BUT ZOW SURE DOES IT

Wow, Zow made five rocket bots, saw his opponent wasn't Kuchy, and then started his t2 lab right on the front before the 5 minute mark.

[sacred tangle]

when youve got your t2 right on the frontline though, there isnt a huge difference between making a popup from a t2 con proper just as well

[nova topaz]

His opponent was very, very passive and sorta just let him do this the whole time while he handed t2 out to Austin and upgraded all his mexes.

He wasn't using Scorpions on his opponent, no. He was using Sheldons against his opponent. But he was doing this.

Because of this, he got to claim this massive wreck field and eat it all up with a t1 con.

It does seem like Seagull is the one who's pushing and Zow is just sorta riding on his heels and backing him up, but even so, this is hilarious and it does mean they instantly get to claim the wreck field

Now he's using it on his opponent!

...unfortunately, Janus OP, so this one did nothing. Like we said before, if there's nothing to back them up, t2 popups kinda do nothing but die to massed-up units.

They're not something you can really build aggressively, and the only reason Zow was able to use Twitchers like this at all was because he got a very early t2 and then made a dozen Twitchers that followed his teammates around and built popups where their units were, and that didn't get immediately countered by Mausers because it was Bismuth and nobody else went t2, because going t2 that early is a big risk unless you're Zow and have a sixth sense for when your opponent just isn't gonna push you.

You know, just imagine if this guy had pushed with the Janus at any point before this and stopped Zow from doing any of it.

I don't think this is indicative of any overpowered strategy, it's just Zow being Zow. Creativity in gameplay is encouraged and is a good sign. I'll let you know if I see this keep happening. Doesn't seem like anybody else was doing anything like this.

[wooden apex]

yeah, lol, i wouldn't go by anything in that game since they guy built a t2 factory on the frontline at like 5-6 mins AND he only built his twitcher AFTER he put out con bots. The guy had like 3 rocket bots on the front line which he ate because his opponent didn't contest anything 😛

if you've got the time to build like 5 twitchers and t2 con bots and a t2 factory on the front line, good luck to you 😛

[undone depot]

More like, good luck to the enemy team. They'll need it desperately.

[pallid peak]

pinned as per Hornet's request 🙂

[daring rivet]

Feedback about the unit tweak we tried yesterday in the "pro lobby"

https://discord.com/channels/549281623154229250/1177785068916314194

Almost everyone really enjoyed the tweak that removes mobile T2 units from the Twitcher and Consul yesterday.

There was one specific game where Sheep was given a early Consul and made a Pit Bull very early in the game which gave him so much space to do whatever he wants in the back to tech up etc. But then I also tried something new Which slowed me down alot and I was to slow to help Elmerfudd defend the push they made. WP to Sheep and Shoty for finding the OP units on the Consul so fast!

https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=126b626575db3012d74f12cc7de4e792

I think the Pit Bull and Scorpion are the main things to watch for with this tweak. Maybe we should change them to Dragon claw/maw if players start abusing the fact they can creep with those units without a good T1 counter available for their opponents (then we back at the same point, rush consul spam T2 pop-up as fast as you can, gg)

I try to play as many games as I can with the tweak active in the "op lobby" whenever I can so we can gather more data/info/replays.

In my opinion it's a very positive received (I didn't expect it to go this well tbh) change for a solution to the Consul race issue there is now!

[rotund canyon]

yeah scorpion creep is currently seems like the most abusable thing. though you cant creep them into enemy scorpions.
this can just prolong games with easier access to op porc.

[scenic snow]

But it's not something you couldn't already do for somewhat more expense with T2 cons, unlike T2 mobiles

[simple shuttle]

tbh I think t2 engineers don't rly have a place in the game that makes sense (only talking about consul and twitcher), I'd also rather see them completely removed or repurposed to be more like butler/printer, which have more specific and useful purposes

otherwise just remove everything t2 from them and make them essentially just better versions of t1 cons, with better buildpower/cost ratio. or let T2 labs build T1 cons instead and remove engineers

[vocal arch]

removing them completely would make
-upgrading t2 mexes a lot harder and forward structures a pain
-there would be no more mines for kbot enjoyers for the few that are still trying to play kbot when they are bored of only playing arm veh t2
-huge nerf on pyro which are already pretty bad
-no more fast anti air on the front when there is a small timing to push
-ect...

[undone depot]

sounds like "makes t2 arty even more meta than it has been for months", though it also gives sheldons an extra reason to be useful

[undone depot]

minor correction: even butlers are less resource-efficient than t1 cons, it's just a small enough difference that the mobility and bp density generally more than make up for it

[scenic snow]

TBH, T2 arty is interesting to play around, since flanking(in the real definition) actually matters.

[turbid remnant]

T1 vehicles can actually counter scorpion creep somewhat, since T1 artillery has the same range as scorpions (710 vs 730) but scorpions only have 500 vision range. Wolverines and Shellshockers can kill scorpions if you can deny intel

[spare nacelle]

Unpopular opinion, Scorpion creep is fine since Porc in this game is severely nerfed due to the design philosophy anyways. Defenses all have a counter and keeping a defensive playstyle viable is a good thing in a game that otherwise tries to make sure its impossible to reliably do so

[primal bloom]

People don't remember but the engineers used to have pitbull and scorpion long time ago. They were removed at some point for being too OP. I don't know if those reasons have changed since or if that's still a valid argument.

Or am I imagining things. I can't find an earlier version where this was true. Might just be very long time ago though.

I'm not imagining it! This nerf happened in 2014: https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason/commit/a4a43b2c107cd3ac76f88f66856156361da43f26

[vocal arch]

https://tenor.com/view/toons-homer-the-simpsons-walking-in-circle-gif-7465560

[nova topaz]

I would kinda like the t2 units added to the Commando instead. :3c

You know, like Fiends and Ducks and Termites. The things that Twitchers currently make. Those are too expensive to hand out and it might not be worth it to make them just to reclaim lab, but it would be something Commandos could do, and that might make their niche actually worth considering if they find and create a hidden position. :3c

It would make commandos less of a crappy solo yolo mine the afus to death unit after paradropping and more of a hidden Insurgent Recruiter that has the option of getting its hands dirty or escaping in a transport if caught out.

[scenic snow]

Bedbugs and/or skuttles

[nova topaz]

PLEASE I'M BEGGING

[nova topaz]

I'll say, if it was nerfed like that a long time ago, we might just want all the t2 combat units removed from the combat engies without adding the t2 popups. The fact that they are a potential problem that was nerfed out of the engies means we'll just reintroduce a problem or even cause a meta where t2 popup counters are too necessary, which could make the game even more Mauser-centered than it already is. 3:

Because yeah, my one argument for them not being overpowered on the combat engineers would be "well Mausers and Quakers!" Except a lot of players also think those units are too OP because of their absurdly low cost, and I don't disagree with them, soooo We can't nerf them if they're what's keeping t2 popup twitchers from being OP. We can get rid of the Consul meta first and then worry about if t2 popups can be put back on the engies.

[midnight trout]

I did wonder why they were missing but the T2 arty remained

ewphcm1jb25zdWwgPSB7CmJ1aWxkb3B0aW9ucyA9IHsKWzE4XSA9ICJhcm1qYW10IiwKWzE5XSA9ICJhcm1yYWQiLApbMjBdID0gImFybWRyYWciLApbMjFdID0gImFybXBlZXAiLApbMjNdID0gImFybWNsYXciLAp9Cn0sCmNvcmZhc3QgPSB7CmJ1aWxkb3B0aW9ucyA9IHsKWzE4XSA9ICJjb3JyYWQiLApbMTldID0gImNvcmphbXQiLApbMjBdID0gImNvcmRyYWciLApbMjNdID0gImNvcmZpbmsiLApbMjRdID0gImNvcm1hdyIsCn0KfQp9

Updated version with maws & claws instead of the popups; please use in preference to old, although I'll leave old in the pin

[nova topaz]

I'm guessing because T2 arty is very expensive and usually something you add to established fronts rather than something you can create to deny a wreck field, but also it's useful for stopping Mauser spam, rather than being something that requires Mauser spam to counter.

I will say though, Twitchers being able to deny wreck fields with them did seem very strong and extremely useful when I did watch it happening. A part of me even wants that to remain a feature of the lab, but I think the lab that would have the most trouble dealing with it is Armada bots, since unlike Cortex, they don't have any units that outrange t2 popups except Sharpshooters, which are not something you can make in early t2. Meanwhile, Cortex bots gets to outrange them basically for free with Sheldons while having the option of Arbiters, and also being the lab that does Twitcher turret creep.

So, I do think leaving them on would actually be a nerf to Armada bots.

[quiet elbow]

well the t2 arty costs as much as a t2 lab, which makes a lot of the combat engie's advantages moot

[midnight trout]

@daring rivet , updated version here ^

[hollow meteor]

https://bar-rts.com/replays/8b566465952042504adda9e87ca8a68b

t2 popups were definitely too op

[shy cargo]

Yeah pretty sure we were winning until 400 scorpions popped up everywhere

[nova topaz]

...well it's a good thing we have a new unitdef that removes those again and adds t1 popups instead! X3c #1155918637820022854 message

[nova topaz]

Haven't watched the replay yet but...

it was Zow, wasn't it?

[turbid remnant]

I don’t really see an issue with letting consuls build pit bulls, if you want to spend 1000 metal on defenses you should get pretty powerful defenses. It’s not really an issue because you could also have spent that 1000 metal (consul + pit bull) on a bull or 4 Mauser or saved a little more for a starlight and it would be way better.

It seems like it’s enough to make it not worth it to hand out consuls to other players, and the player that built the consul can already make arm T2 vehicles that are way better than pitbulls.

[tropic eagle]

it was mostly TX55. I recommend watching the replay, it's really funny. TBH, while it was used very effectively that game, I'm actually not convinced that it was broken, the enemy had lots of chances to overwhelm with ranged units that outranged scorpions, but just... didn't really, and the resource investment in porc was staggering, maybe the highest I've ever seen proportional to unit production in a game. A quick switch from raiding units to quaker/diplomat and eventually vanguard/catapult would have made all the scorpions irrelevant, and they didn't have enough support from longer range porc for most of the game to withstand that kind of attack.

That said, switching from t2 popups to t1 popups is probably the healthier choice, just in terms of making games close out sooner

[alpine laurel]

because of scouting difficulty, it is hard to know as an attacker if you should invest in offensive units, defenses, or eco, and I imagine adding t2 popups to engis makes that harder still. too hard? idk, I haven't tried it. but it's easy to see what the correct decision was in hindsight

[tropic eagle]

Yep, it makes it harder. In this game in particular, TX55 and I were doing pretty much the same thing for a solid 20 minutes though, just spamming pitbulls and scorpions and producing little to no units, so they had time to make the correct decision. 😛

[midnight trout]

I find it hard to see how anyone on a t1 econ could afford to spam T2 popups in any real way without throwing their econ, and as said it's not like they don't have easy counters

I agree it's probably better removed, but,at that point they could have easily done same or better with actual cons and econ
was it a popup cold war or something?

[heavy hawk]

can we add sumos to twitcher as well as scorpion I liked that

[midnight trout]

getting flashbacks to a few weeks ago
nearly had sumo and welder vending machines being dispensed, that would have been 'interesting'

[tropic eagle]

This was not a case of a player getting handed a twitcher (although TX55 did get one from zow early on this game, to help his own lane), the scorpion spam came out after the bottom of the map collapsed and we lost two players, and the other team was just flooding through the empty space. At that point TX55 and I were on t2 eco (though still kinda small). I'm pretty sure he had his t2 bot lab just making twitchers on repeat for several minutes lol

[alpine laurel]

seems like budget pulsar creep basically, which I wouldn't call op, but wouldn't call fun either

[midnight trout]

ah gotcha. hardly uncounterable, but certainly tarpitting and delaying

[heavy hawk]

I really liked sumos I was thinking maybe it could get Shivas too I think that Cortex t3 is a little Weak and needs a booster

[tropic eagle]

Yeah this is how it played out in that linked replay. Totally counterable, but annoying and slow to deal with. In this particular case it wouldn't have been a major slowdown to have t2 cons going around with a twitcher swarm, but that's not going to be universally true

[heavy hawk]

https://bar-rts.com/replays/c4c862655a11b043e3816e6c13158b2a

[waxen copper]

just allow twitchers to make behemoths, but make it unassistable

[hollow meteor]

keep pitbulls and scorpions so zow can carry me, add in sumos too

[scenic snow]

Personally, I think medium defenses is exactly what consuls and twitchers should be meant for.
Balance them around that if it's currently overpowered.

[carmine ridge]

20k metal in T2 pop ups beats a trickle of raiding units, gg pls nerf

[dusk flint]

that game was fucking hilarious tbh
I'd like to see a game where people actually know how to defeat porc in it though, I saw Nezah build some ambasadors early but then they kind of disappeared and going forward nobody seemed to know what to do other than keep building raiding units and sending them into the popup's teeth

[scenic snow]

Yeah, it's like everybody thinks direct assault against a fortified position should work. It's bizarre.

[dusk flint]

I blame this strange sentiment floating around the BAR community that posits that defenses should suck shit and never be worth building
the fact that they mostly do is unfortunate but incidental

[nova topaz]

So the thing is, Eural was the one complaining the most about it, and what lab was he using? Arm bots. It's like I said, Arm bots doesn't really have an answer to this except Spy Bots and EMP. Eural's Fatboys were working against the early Scorpions, but Sharpshooters and Fatboys can't deal with Persecutors, which is most of what was killing him.

But Twitchers can already build Persecutors! 2500 metal each. One Paralyzer costs less and counters all of them.

He even built one of those, it's just that Zow was making Persecutors in the lane above him and then those killed his forward base.

Also I WAS RIGHT IT WAS ZOW!

One of the biggest moments in this game was honestly the way Hobo Joe's Advanced Exploiter killed Cadia Stands' commander and then killed the rest of his units... but that's an Advanced Exploiter, and those can't be built by Twitchers.

[tropic eagle]

exploiters are so goated now that yardmaps let you upgrade any mex into them

[nova topaz]

Yeah, watching this replay, it's like, I'm not convinced this isn't just "armada players got so used to playing from an unstoppable lead that they forgot they sometimes need to build things other than Starlights, Mausers, Bulls, and Marauders."

I've never seen that many players suicide that many Bulls and Starlights into two Advanced Exploiters and one Bulwark that was being repaired by 8 nanos. STARLIGHTS OUTRANGE ALL OF THAT CRAP WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING

[dusk flint]

Arm bots doesn't really have an answer to porc (ie popup arty)
yeah I mean, I honestly think thats a fair take
I think tzar and fatboy need to be differentiated such that fatboy becomes a longer ranged unit, and I've been going down that trail of thought ever since I wondered to myself what a rethought sharpshooter might look like in the grander scope of how the arm t2 bot lab looks

[scenic snow]

Snipers can kill arty if the player bothers to think. Hold fire, jam them, dust the thing.

[nova topaz]

omg, but that might require Arm to actually micro as advertised sometimes

[tropic eagle]

arm t2 bots are insanely good and have lots of answers to porc, "outrange" isn't the only counter there is. Also the EMP launcher is the greatest anti porc weapon in the game

[scenic snow]

Ah right, I forgot that requiring any strategy that isn't "dance at maximum range" is unacceptable.

[undone depot]

and it requires there to not be spam

[tropic eagle]

And so the juno wars begin

[undone depot]

as always, the answer is grunts

[nova topaz]

Yep, it's like I said, every lab can easily answer Twitchers being able to make Scorpions and Consuls being able to make Pit Bulls, except Arm Bots.

Twitcher Scorpions and Consul Pitbulls are really what's up for debate right now, but when it comes to Persecutors and Rattlesnakes, they both actually have really low hp for their cost, only 4250 for the Persecutor, so a valid answer is just to spam them to death. I'm pretty sure Sheldons have better HP per metal.

[undone depot]

t2 plasma arty shouldn't be built if you don't have anything to protect from frontal pushes, but if you have other defenses and enemy doesn't build emp launcher, really strong

[nova topaz]

Also
I'M GOING TO WALK MY COMMANDER RIGHT INTO FOUR SCORPIONS, OH CRAP THEY SAW ME, JUNO PLS

Damn, it didn't work! T2 popups are OP

[scenic snow]

"This unit is OP if the enemy doesn't build any of several counters that themselves have other uses." 😛

[undone depot]

1 counter, which is basically only useful vs porc

[nova topaz]

I dunno, armada tac EMP launchers are pretty OP.

[undone depot]

very op vs porc

[nova topaz]

So are we debating removing all T2 porc from the Consul and Twitcher now or is that just incidentally where the conversation is heading?

Because I'm pretty sure even if you did that, t2 cons can still make those and then some, and Twitchers and Consuls are pretty OP at assisting those t2 cons. Then it would be Cor Vehicles being the odd one out with no printers unless enabled.

[dusk flint]

think hornet already made another tweak that changes it all to t1 popups
rip in piss t2 popup meta
11/26/2023 - 11/27/2023
'u were dum an evr1 h8ed u' -Eural

[undone depot]

t2 plasma arty requires actual unit bodyguards and is therefore fine to have on twitchers+consuls

[dusk flint]

I must be in the minority in that I kind of liked a game state where combat engineers could run around making porc everywhere
t2 cons are obnoxious to work with since they're so slow and pricy, and therefore projecting build power across the map is basically limited to your commander, combat engineers, and a t2 con with an accompanying transport
just being able to build 90% of the defensive structures you could want (except bulwark/pulsar pretty much) [>implying anyone wants to build a bulwark] without juggling a t2 con across the map was nice

[scenic snow]

I think mostly we're nerfing consuls and twitchers into irrelevance

[nova topaz]

sends 3 Marauders to kill one fusion reactor guarded by four Scorpions

doesn't work
you MONSTER HOW DID MARAUDERS NOT WORK

IT'S JUST SO FUNNY WATCHING THE ARMADA PLAYERS PULL OUT ALL THEIR USUAL TRICKS AND WHINING THAT IT'S NOT IMMEDIATELY WORKING EVEN THOUGH NOTHING HAS BEEN BUFFED OR NERFED

[dusk flint]

it literally did work if it was the southern east base that you're talking about
I don't have that shit in front of me atm but it was something like

bob the gigachad builder starts making trillions of metal worth of t2 popups to stem the bleeding after south falls
he's barely keeping up with the hordes of uruk-hai trying to storm Gondor to end the age of man
like 3-4 memerauders sneak around and get into the fusion line
t2 popups firing at them the whole time
they pile up on 1 fusion, kill it, and explode themselves in turn

probably could've ended the game outright if the fusion explosion didn't kill them

now if somebody told that madlad about t2 walls
THEN arnerda players would be shitting themselves

[tropic eagle]

Given that they're mandatory handouts for techers to let the whole team produce t2 units without labs, good. Them being affordable mobile BP with some defensive/utility build options is fine.

[dusk flint]

they're
consols are
handing out twitchers gets you reported lol

[tropic eagle]

well yes, but if you only nerfed consuls the problem would instantly switch to twitchers

[scenic snow]

I was starting with the assumption that all t2 mobiles would be removed.

[dusk flint]

I still don't think that's true
on account of fiends actually dying to t1, ducks being niche, and commandos+termites being memes

[tropic eagle]

they are still useful as a t1.5 mobile builder. Having nanos, beamers/dllt, and t2 arty is immensely useful without being busted

[nova topaz]

omg watching Eural scream at his team while making figs he doesn't need and t3 he can't afford, and then reclaim his fusion to get metal for his half-done afus and then go "I NEED ENERGY!"

LIKE NO SHIT DUDE, YOU RECLAIMED YOUR FUSION, IDK IF YOU KNEW BUT THOSE MAKE ENERGY

[soft eagle]

so much armada hate lol

[undone depot]

literally every thread is an armada hate thread

[soft eagle]

t2 con being the only one able to make popups does matter. they can be slow and annoying to micromanage
also expensive. if your t2 con has to walk 15 seconds + the 4-5 seconds between structures to build that's a big delay

i think t2 popups are completely fine. why are they even considered an issue when cerb and pulsar exists
putting them on combat engineers is another question tho

[undone depot]

i don't think anyone considers them an issue on t2 cons

[soft eagle]

t2 has mauser / sheldon that outrange, as well as the heavy t2 rockets
if they build a lot of of them you can counter build a pulsar or artillery

[nova topaz]

No arguments here. I kind liked being able to make t2 popups with twitchers but eh. I'll live either way.

Can you really blame us for the Armada hate at this point though? When people tell you you're trolling for picking Cortex because they need you to make specifically "this armada unit" or they lose the game, it kinda gets under one's skin.

and no matter what, it's been an armada unit for like the entire time I've been here. The only exception has been late-game Juggernauts or Catapults.

[undone depot]

eh, only 1 spawn, only on certain maps is troll to go cor. it's borderline trolling to go arm air on the same maps, particularly on emp rework with nerfed stils

[soft eagle]

some t2 con management is fine but imo i don't find it very fun gameplay where 30% of my game actions are managing this expensive slow t2 con that blocks itself half the time

[undone depot]

has it blocked itself at all for you since engine update?

[soft eagle]

oh, i guess I haven't played midgame since then. did they change the vehicles or all unit pathing?

[nova topaz]

Engine update really did help them not be stupid anymore.

[undone depot]

con blueprint placement only requires being able to reach edge of the building now.

[soft eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/future-gif-7835720904367547442

[nova topaz]

Yeah, assuming you're not the team's techer when Consul meta isn't turned off.

and listen, I want Armada air to not be terrible too, I feel really bad for Armada air players when everyone starts yelling at them! I have no idea why the devs insist on keeping their t2 fighters godawful and everything else of theirs the same!

[undone depot]

if consul meta is turned off, 0 spawns are troll to play cor, instead of 1

[turbid remnant]

Isn’t the entire point of combat engineers being able to build cheap T2 defenses? Also I don’t know what you mean that arm bots can’t counter scorpions, sharpshooters outrange and almost oneshot them, spybots can stun them and let you kill them with anything, and sprinters, webbers, platys, and recluses can go around.

Agree that arm T2 fighters shouldn’t be so dogshit but that’s not really an issue for this thread

[dusk flint]

I'll say this
I like that combat engineers can make t2 popups more than I like that combat engineers can make t2 units (even though I think the consol problem is solveable without wholecloth removing t2 unit production from combat engineers)
I enjoy seeing gameplay that revolves around the expectation of defenses because it means more units than just long ranged skirmishers/arty matter more to the midgame. rather than just hound/recluse/sheldon/t2 vehicle arty dominating the midgame landscape in terms of importance, now siege units (ambassadors/arbiters/negotiators) become more valuable, and consequently frontline units that can take the fight to those units become more valuable in turn. I see it as a positive development for the midgame gameplay loop

I would personally draw the line at bulwarks and pulsars just because there should be at least some reason to bring a t2 con to the frontlines, but I think t2 popups look quite fun and their presence adds more than it detracts from what I've seen so far

[midnight trout]

it's hard to say the value of forward defences, people would get used to them and prepare over time, but it might just drag out games rather than develop them, tarpitting and requiring more 'unpicking'. But there is no reason this couldn't already occur with say a flying T2 con and a twitcher gang following it about.

it'd be interesting to know why it was removed intentionally ~10 years ago, the pattern it created may still be valid and worth avoiding

Thematically it makes sense to me that defence engies should be able to build defences, unless a gift engie allows a rushed one in a way that completely breaks things, which doesn't seem the case, it doesn't even register compared to state of the hound problem.

[hollow meteor]

lobby played with t2 popups still and abused early consul for porc
https://bar-rts.com/replays/587a65651aae24a500f7fd4b2149e947

also having a lot of utility units with the engineers now seems op too

[midnight trout]

the only addition was the scout, which I expect is more OP the higher the lobby skill

[shy cargo]

This was totally busted. Consul super fast to get to front line (maybe 1 min quicker?) and much cheaper, so not the end of the world if you lose it.

[hollow meteor]

yeah the timing of the t2 porc makes it pretty strong not much can kill it within that timeframe

[shy cargo]

I think nothing at T1 can trade evenly with pit bulls

[simple mica]

Having skorpion on twitcher helps cortex a lot, but its not the way core's issues should be addressed. t2 units shouldn't be on engis, and t2 popups shouldn't be on engis.

[midnight trout]

they're not on the current tweak version, remember, so it's relatively academic. cortex balance another debate entirely unfortunately

[tropic eagle]

People gotta get with the times and use the updated tweaks. c'mon people it's been like a whole day!

[midnight trout]

ikr, imagine

[turbid remnant]

If t2 popups aren’t on engis what’s the point of building consul over butler?

Again that’s 1000 metal invested in T2 defenses, it should at least secure the area you build it in for a little while

[carmine ridge]

Can we get a tweak that randomizes units on the consul? I think it would be fun

[rotund canyon]

lmao. yeah weird thing, raider units thrown into heavy porc died.

tbh i think the idea of removing combat units is wortg trying also.
just make them same cost/bp as nano turrets, but mobile. more like butlers.

anither thing is replacing pitbull/scorpion with mobile bombs
currently underused bombs are bad at offense anyway, but can help to stop t1 pushes.

[quiet elbow]

you're gonna see flying bombs start to annihilate everything (will be fun to watch though)

[rotund canyon]

that requires much micro, air lab, and damage falloff makes it not too useful.

[quiet elbow]

you say that but if you can nuke an army out of existence for 100 m at only the cost of a reusable/reclaimable t1 fac, people will definitely start doing it. It's brutally effective - have done it before. The airburst aoe goes far enough to wipe a good circle off the ground

[rotund canyon]

well mobile bombs was just a meme suggestion actually. just curious "what if" 🙂

[scenic snow]

If something was gonna get bedbugs I'd want it to be the commando.

[dusk flint]

Kek, that would be great actually
Part of the issue of the commando is that its stealthy quality rarely helps because penetrating enemy air space means they should have eyes everywhere, and he has to get close enough to a base that he can be easily intercepted by shurikens or a handful of spam while trying to do his thing. He basically relies on either extremely specific timing (after labs are reclaimed for fusion/afus, before spam comes out, and either way he also requires air space dominance or gunships or shuriken just btfo him)

Getting a spawn point for mobile bombs behind enemy lines isn't strictly that big a deal because casual defenses will still kill the bed bugs, but it means there is less of a risk on commandos because he needn't reveal himself to do damage

[nova topaz]

Yeah don't give mobile bombs to Twitchers, please. That's a terrible idea. Mobile bomb meta would be the worst meta.

Commandos, though...

[quiet elbow]

it would have everything it needs for flying bombs as well

[dusk flint]

Bombs have some special mass rule where they can't be picked up by transports
Last I checked they can't pick up skuttles and I am like 98% sure they can't pick up bed bugs either

But in this theoretical universe where twitchers/commandos could build bed bugs, yeah you could pick them up in a transport, send them somewhere, and then have them build bed bugs at that location
Might turn that commando meme into a legit suggestion thread after I test a few bed bug things tbh

[quiet elbow]

they can pick up tumbleweeds, why not bedbugs as well

[alpine laurel]

tbh that would be hilariously op

[spare nacelle]

Commando buff idea, Let it cloak like a commander.
Any objections to this? I feel like just that would be enough

[nova topaz]

Yes,

if

it costs a whole lot.

It shouldn't be something you leave on forever like Spy Bots. It should be something you turn on to get behind enemy lines and then turn off. Sorta like the Spy's invis watch in TF2. :3c

[spare nacelle]

triple the energy cost while still and moving

[dusk flint]

I get why you would want that and I wouldn't strictly say no, but I feel like there's a more elegant way to solve the commandos problem
Its not like seismic sensors are a big deal to build, but thematically I want cortex to get as little cloak as possible, since its kind of armada's shtick

[scenic snow]

Is it though? Armada has four cloaking units, Cortex has two.

Well, I guess you'd probably count pete and rattlesnake, so six

I've also grown very opposed to "Armada gets everything cool" over time.

If Armada had to use cloak to compete like they were Tiberian Sun's NOD, then sure. But they don't.

[quiet elbow]

if commando gets cloak it can dogleash a skuttle as deep as cortex wants with its jamming field

[scenic snow]

Oh, and the ferret. Shows how much people actually use that thing.

[undone depot]

Ferret is one example of a unit which is only even capable of being semi-relevant (barely) if it uses its cloak

[dusk flint]

I get what you are saying but faction differentiation should be encouraged insofar as it results in meaningful gameplay differences. The recent quaker change is a good example; quakers are now the most powerful "alpha shot" artillery and that is a powerful and meaningful advantage. It plays into Cortex's "big guns and overwhelming power" faction fantasy

Armada's cloaking is a part of their high tech sleak faction fantasy, and though I agree there's not enough of a play into each faction's fantasy atm, that is a work in progress and we should try to achieve more examples of it, not minimize those handful of examples that do exist

[pine tiger]

this is not a headache I ever want to play against

[real oak]

I agree
And you would know it quite well

[nova topaz]

Did you guys try that once upon a time? :3c
How was that? X3c

[real oak]

I tormented Shad hunter because he left his bombs on fire at will
Am I abused that

[tropic eagle]

[Consul] Recluse removed from build list, Webber added to build list.
These changes are way too timid, webber will become the next big problem and pyro will find its way into the meta from twitchers. The problem is t2 units without lab!

[midnight trout]

any t2 > t1, free (or close as) t2 factory > t1 factory. but I assume we need to see gunslinger meta appear before that's evident enough to prove the need?

[dusk flint]

I still wanna see the mythical fiend meta, personally

[undone depot]

the fiend meta was ~9 months ago, and they haven't been nerfed since, and that was before handing out engis was common. people literally would build their own t2 lab, t2 con, twitcher, then reclaim lab to fund fiends and t2 mexes, and win off it

[quiet elbow]

14 free fiends is 14 free fiends (when compared to keeping the lab, that is)

[nova topaz]

I believe it, i've killed people with fewer Fiends in FFA. Fiends are really strong in t1. Honshu underestimates their power.

get like 5 fiends, run straight past the LLTs while killing them and now your grunts have free reign and you can kill their whole base before they catch you. LLTs do not scare fiends whatsoever.

Fiends are one of those units that can gives themselves flanking bonuses by running past a unit while shooting, so their damage goes crazy even if all you do is run past something.

Fiends are just not OP in a meta where Recluses can climb the walls on DSD and Bismuth and Koom and that's 70% of the OP player map pool diet.

[shy cargo]

This is at least an improvement.

[quiet elbow]

webber spam is actually absurdly strong though; they're fast and agile enough to basically dive on things like fiends, something wonky happened with the emp beam cause they're absurdly strong (not to mention acting as AA), not to mention they just got buffed in reclaim speed by 50%.

[undone depot]

emp rework buffed them because they were worthless at the time emp rework was initially made. basically doubled their damage. zecrus un-buffed their emp rework damage in this patch, so they should be fine

[midnight trout]

that and the rework really works well for webbers, it lets them trap very effectively
the other thing is the value was chosen when they had a faster drain rate to overcome, which was later changed down, but left them with the now relatively stronger EMP beam

[pine tiger]

I was a wee lad. That would not work as well now as it did then luckily.

[nova topaz]

lol we are already seeing the consul yeehaw meta as entirely expected.

[scenic snow]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-surprised-gasp-what-cat-shock-gif-635629308990545194

[soft eagle]

webber has 280 range tho, at least your units can shoot it
was referring to hobo
are they testing gunslinger consuls?

[nova topaz]

I didnt say webber lol

[undone depot]

consul has had gunslinger since forever, and it's currently the the meta with recluse and hound gone, maybe won't stay that way, but it's the current thing

[soft eagle]

I think just locking the t2 construction of consul behind owning a lab makes the most sense. you'd have to gimp the t2 unit in most cases to make it fair to build at t1 phase

gunslinger sucks imo. not cost effective vs llt, many t1 units can hit them
t1 vehicles can out run them, a huge difference

[undone depot]

not many can hit back faster than it self-repairs. it's way weaker than both hound and spoder, but still very large advantage. also has op los for self-spotting

[soft eagle]

it's self repair is not that fast, and it actually takes a lot of micro to get value. I guess it dodges med tanks, but lol 3 janus insta delete gunslinger

it's still decent but just cause something is good enough to be used doesn't mean it's oppressive

[undone depot]

doesn't seem oppressive, just moderately obnoxious

idk, just have past experience and see teammates/enemies i'm not laning vs doing it, so not 100% certain on anything

[nova topaz]

Yeah. It seems to have already fizzled. It was attempted for a couple games but it didn't swing the match enough for it to be worth doing every time.

[undone depot]

Also, it's not like "mass gunslingers" would ever be a thing, so, if anything, you'd be better off just buying one from a teammate going arm t2 bots than buying a consul just to build 1-2 gunslingers

[nova topaz]

lol never mind, the yeehaw meta is shaping up now. It's not as oppressive as the spider meta or hound meta but the early yeehaw meta is having an impact for sure.

It's much more subtle but still very much "if you don't do it yourself then your team is at a disadvantage"

[soft eagle]

at least it has counter play

[waxen copper]

Eh, at least you can now tech with cor and sell twitchers and still be fine because fiends can fight gunslingers

[nova topaz]

Yeah, but it's still a matter of "somebody has to hand out consuls or twitchers so t2 units can be out in t1" and nobody likes that meta.

[waxen copper]

It's still better than "tech as arm vics or lose". At least there is some variety with the units present and they don't invalidate all t1

[nova topaz]

I guess

[dusk oriole]

Kiting with Missile trucks also ruins a gunslingers day pretty well, if someone happened to be going with that comp for T1.

Although I'll note again, that I'm still not too keen on the Gunslingers overall power being hard locked by the Consul.
It basically means this is as good as it will ever be allowed to be, and almost never built from a lab.

Would prefer to see the unit made more versatile and usable in a wider time frame.

[nova topaz]

I agree. That's kinda the problem Consul Units in the first place, is you have to stick units on it that aren't too OP, but if the Gunslinger isn't too OP, even though it's a t2 unit meant to counter t1 ... then the unit objectively isn't good enough but you can't buff it because you're meant to use it with the Consul.

That means it's kinda worthless if you want to make it with an Arm T2 Bot lab, you know, the thing that normally builds the silly things. If you want to go Gunslingers you have to get them early from a Consul. That's so stupid.

[midnight trout]

it basically locks it into T1.5 rather than early T2

[waxen copper]

that's kind of commando's fate rn as well, it's stuck only being good enough that you can get some value out of it if rushed with a twitcher

[simple shuttle]

tried gunslinger, it's pretty meh compared to recluse and hound - I think consul share meta probably dead now

[nova topaz]

Here's hoping. I don't like the whole engineer sharing meta in the first place.

[hybrid bone]

Getting a bit off topic but I was thinking recently it would be awesome if commando could build t2 trans as well to help shuttle mammoths to front and allow for more multi-unit drop shenanigans. Might make it busted though.

[spare nacelle]

Someone literally made a gunslinger buff video, that gives it a six shooter pistol that reloads so to speak and its alot better, however, it hasnt been pushed yet and theres seemingly no reason why either. last I heard was engine limitations which tbh makes no sense

[midnight trout]

it's related to impuse physics, gunslinger uses them in a more relevant way and I -think- the concern was it would change after a pending engine improvement re impuse
that pending change is sort of stuck in a testing limbo though

[spare nacelle]

that was like 4 months ago wasnt it?
Then get rid of the impuse physics at this point. Id rather have it without the pounder knockback as long as its strong too use

[dusk oriole]

Exactly. Well said.

[midnight trout]

I've been trying to get something done with it sooner, we can always edit it later after engine if that changes things that much
quite what to do is a very different discussion with many options and even more opinions

[spare nacelle]

Unpopular opinion, But too many things are in a limbo stage, you have a huge backlog as youve said , theyll stay in limbo for years if we dont move things along
And its not like anyone else is doing anything huge when it comes too reworking units or new units besides you that I see.
I think we push that update I seen into Canidate units. And see how people like it without the knockback

[midnight trout]

dev time is limited, but that is one of the dangers of things happening 'soon', things wait for that soon and cascading roadblock hell awaits

[dusk oriole]

Whilst more transport action is something I'd love to see, that would just turn the Commando into a means of skipping the airlab for that function. It's role isn't to be a sit-at-home transport printer.
So I don't agree with that idea. It's the same as how the Consul's intended role got skewed into becoming a replacement factory. Any unit with a build list needs to ensure it's list closely matches it's intended functions.

[midnight trout]

but alternative is often just not having anything 'soon' at all, or wasting work, so it's a hard one to balance priorities for
in this case IMO gunslinger could be buffed or changed and if somehow that breaks in some way post physics update then it can be addressed then

[tropic eagle]

you just have to adapt to never comitting to any task or any timeline

[spare nacelle]

whats currently happening now tbh.
Feels like ive heard that one too many times..

How fast could that gunslinger update be pushed into canidate units?
I made the Image sheet for legion, but Im considering making Giant roadmap of current plans so that way we have it in a very open and direct format whats being worked on

[tropic eagle]

the limiting factor to changes to units like the gunslinger is not the amount of work required to make changes, it's getting enough of a consensus among a bunch of different voices to agree on a change. Like, changing the consul buildlist is a couple names being swapped out, but we've been discussing this issue for months on end

[midnight trout]

unsure what the update involved, but sounds like a stockpile of 1 and a burst of 6, which is relatively easy to do; if just that then no unit forking is needed, it can be an override

indeed, it's usually getting enough people agreeing what direction it has to go in, before things can be done

[spare nacelle]

I suggested this along time ago, But release canidate units should be exactly what it says, a testing playground for public lobbies, that way we dont have to go through all this dev confirmation to get things added to the game. If its not that quick to change add and implement then we shouldnt be going through these month long conversations about it, the conversation can be happening around it, while people are testing it and hearing feedback, The game stays fresh, balance issues get worked out, new content is added, most importantly.
PEOPLE ACTUALLY FEEL LIKE PROGRESS IS BEING MADE

The t2 sea stuff should be added and i feel like i havent seen anyone complain except for the drone ships
So add everything else as it is, Tune the drone ship a bit more. Add that, get rid of the t2 sea option and boom. Progress

[midnight trout]

tests are tweaks generally, that's why I brew them sometimes to evaluate ideas in the wild. history shows they tend to stick, luckily enough

it can help to show tangible results rather than just theorycraft where the common ground is the status quo, eg default is nothing changes

[spare nacelle]

Even still, To get back on track a bit more since this is about consuls.
I feel like everyone said consuls was better without units.
if the gunslinger rework is pushed the conversation will likely come up again, I havent seen anyone complain about NOT having units in consul. So i feel like for once in the entire history of BAR everyones on the same page. As for scorpion and pitpull in consul, I feel like it fits too have it there, but for balance reasons, just add the wall turrets and maybe the warden nobody uses and it should be good to go as well

[midnight trout]

warden & overwatch make sense for defensive engie yes, I'll add them into the tweak later

[spare nacelle]

6 for each gun, so 12 shots in total
if we can push that id love to go test it personally.

[midnight trout]

I can do it as a tweak later, if it works as I assume, stockpiles of 1 are odd things in spring and can have bugs
it could also be 12 shots that reload individually, but then you lose the burst aspect

[spare nacelle]

Yeah the burst is what made it really powerful, otherwise its about the same as it is right now. I dont really think any of the other stats should be changed exept the exp gain, which comes up in every single conversation about its buff, it says fast learning yet has the same exp gain as every other unit, id say double it, maybe even triple it as well

[midnight trout]

the exp gain is the same iirc but the way it is used is different

[hybrid bone]

For the gunslinger with the 12 shot burst how many does it take to snipe a com would be my question. I feel like it could end up playing like a t2 bot Janus if I'm understanding this burst/reload plan.

[spare nacelle]

there was a video of it but idk where it went ill search for it

[hybrid bone]

If not no worries, I still think it'd be worth giving the change a shot I'm just still scarred from Maverick metas of the past. I'm sure if it's busted it'll be discovered quite quickly.

[spare nacelle]

This com is weak though already so i cant tell.
Even if it becomes the next janus id say thats not so bad considering its price and it fits armada

@midnight trout here found video

about 18 shots or so?

[waxen copper]

it was weird, effectively it could unload the guns very quickly, but each shot was kept track of, so you didn't need to fully reload between volleys
and the guns always fired alternating
and the gunslinger was given an animation to show them reloading each shot
it was weird

[hybrid bone]

It certainly gives the gunslinger a unique flavor I like, hopefully it can be balanced nicely.

[waxen copper]

i think one of the major worries was that the gunslinger would just have way too much burst potential

[midnight trout]

that looks like a 12 stockpile then, alternating guns is easy enough
but nothing would stop you camping a gunslinger in range and just firing every time the stockpile counter hit '1'

[spare nacelle]

it would be worse than the current gnslinger if you did that right?
its power is in a full stockpile or a half, not 1 at a time

[midnight trout]

there is no 'full stockpile' concept, there is 'ammo' or 'not'
so if that existed it was a custom gadget or something

[spare nacelle]

IM saying with this change burst>sustained fire.

Youd want to be microing these because theyre weaker without full ammo, a hit and run style of play would be better and it makes more sense with the self healing as well

You can do it now, but the damage on current GS isnt enough to warrent using it over other units. I think this makes the unit more skillful to use, you wouldnt be able to just spam them imo

[midnight trout]

indeed, just checking there wasn't some hard limiter involved that I'd missed, if there was specific animation then there was probably something more involved than just the literal weapon change
I'll sort a tweak tomorrow, can't test anything currently

[undone depot]

If you have access to anything t2-related, warden+overwatch are a complete waste of metal and bp. Literally not worth cluttering an engi's buildoptions with it

[midnight trout]

they're good for ranged point defence, stopping rezbots wandering around, stopping nanoframes getting up, etc. if the menus get too stuffed then I won't push them in, but I think there's a gap that has no better candidates for it

[undone depot]

Llts are fine for this, or dllt/beamers. Heck, without something spotting for them (in the case of rezbots, radar isn't even enough), warden effectively has less range than dllts/beamers due to having worse vision radius. HLTs are a specific tool whose niche comes to an end before engis are being used.

I'm not saying HLT is worthless, just engis building HLT would be worthless

[dusk flint]

I'm saying HLT is worthless. HLTs are the only t1 turret without a single use case
every other t1 turret has at least something resembling a use case if you squint a lot

DLLT/beamers can 'counter' a bot player's rocket bots (not really, because enough of them just btfo a DLLT/beamer before you can even repair it, and it's impossible to protect it), but at least it goes on to be useful in subsequent parts of the game as antispam

agitators/t1 artillery turrets are EXTREMELY costly, but I mean if you really want to cement control of an area its not too horrible if you remember to reclaim it, because at least no other unit in t1 can outrange it, and you can wall it off so it's basically impossible to contest in t1 without ridiculously overwhelming numbers of units

LLTs need no introduction, they're good for what they are

popups are excellent because they foil med tank balls, can be protected via t1 walls, and take such reduced damage when withdrawn that it makes it easy for them to survive units that can siege it (rocket bots, t1 artillery), making them extremely difficult to attack in a cost effective manner

wardens for example will straight up almost lose to its own metal cost in rocket bots and you have no way to protect it with walls or do anything beyond repair micro. vs vehicles, artillery outranges it. its completely worthless and you might as well just build units

I cannot think of a single situation where I would build an HLT over a t1 popup

[tropic eagle]

Because you misunderstand HLT's role. It's not meant to be defensive, it's meant to be an are denial tool that the other team cannot build within, primarily to block off mex spots and critical chokes. In that it's pretty similar to t1 static arty. It will do jack shit to a real push, that's what the other towers are for.

[dusk flint]

I don't misunderstand shit my dude
it's a trash building. if I want an area denial tool, there are better options; they're called units

if you have a static defensive building that can't trade well against other units and has no defensive advantages vs units that can siege it, it's worthless
simple as
all the other buildings I listed have at least some singular advantage. HLT has none

but you can stop people from building stuff in its range
yeah I can do literally the same thing with t1 arty, or even jousting with t1 rocket bots, and both these units also beat HLTs
so wtf am I building HLT for

[spare nacelle]

EXACTLY. HLT only become powerful when t2 walls are an option. Then you can shield 80% of the damage it would take if not closer to 90.
Only then is it really worth anything imo

[dusk flint]

HLT would be an area denial tool if it outranged t1 arty
such a thing would allow it to poke enemies out of its territory until those enemies had enough raw firepower to walk up and blast it down. in such a world, its lack of defensibility with t1 walls and its poor dps (like 108~ at max range) would make sense
but this game has a deep seeded hatred for turtle gameplay so it will never happen

[fallen arrow]

Eh, they aren't amazing, but they do great for countering whistlers and providing a safe area to attack from. Sheep always makes HLTs vs me in lane when I whistle, they have a place, it's just limited. Sadly on my role maps you're just stalling for T2 so a hold-fire pop-up with a nano is often better to stall with. HLTs only work on lane maps with long T1 phases against specific units compared but it can work

[midnight trout]

given consul/twitcher would be only unit that can build both t2 walls and HLT, that is then a more viable tool, no?

[dusk flint]

they do great . . . as long as your enemy doesn't build the unit that counters it that is in the same lab as the unit they are great at countering
Not too long ago, there was a replay posted of people saying that t2 popups on combat engineers was a bit much
Upon viewing this replay, it was unironically 40 minutes of people streaming short ranged raiding units into t2 popups, and being surprised that this didn't work out

I get the same vibe from posts like this. Yes, if you refuse to use the easily accessible tool that counters something, that something might seem good. But due to the accessibility of its counter, it isn't

[fallen arrow]

Yeah, if you put a single unsupported HLT up with nothing in front of it, it does easily. When I see people use them, it's to cover the units in front of them to force better trades. Especially in whistler battles.

[dusk oriole]

One of the things that makes HLTs even worse, is just the painfully long build time.
Even in moments where you can plainly tell, "400m for having range over this area genuinely would be a good deal right now" you can't have it.
After several cons effort two minutes later you'll be 80% done, and then the enemy just pokes in and kills it before you can finish. Metal gone.

Is one of the main things that makes the T1 pop-up turrets so much more viable than HLTs, is simply that they'll actually be ready in time and not bog down your constructors until T2 units are already hitting you. (slight hyperbole)

[nova topaz]

Seriously. The buildpower cost is the real killer, more than double a HLLT. You need a nano already there and your com needs to help to even consider it.

[spare nacelle]

Made a new post about it just now, I think yes it would tbh, but nobody will even use it until its been reworked anyway

[dusk flint]

that, and t1 walls actually protect the construction of the popup
so the enemy now has to bulldoze through however many walls you threw up, or commit to flanking around them, to destroy it

such a scenario can only be answered with artillery, which if they're bots just means they're kinda screwed and can't take it down. or if you have jammers in the area, they have to get vision to know to bombard it, which is another hoop to jump through

[rotund canyon]

this. also huge buildtime makes it impossible to repair under enemy fire.

when i first joined BAR i was incredibly disapointed by HLTs. Its so bad comparing to OTA and TAesc HLTs which are actually a defensive structures, not just "budget plasma cannon" for small territory control.

[midnight trout]

defence in general in BAR is bad, too much so considering 'slot cost' eg it isn't a unit
HLTs are bad even by those standards, pretty poor unless you already have an area under solid control and even then are glass at the job

[turbid remnant]

I think someone on the balance team is allergic to defenses or something. There’s no other explanation for them to be this bad, excluding the T1 popup wall and the pulsar

I agree with the idea that turtling should never the the optimal strategy, that would be a terrible meta, but at the same time if someone does invest metal into defenses they should be worth it.

I really don’t understand why the combat engineers need to be downgraded to T1 defenses, if someone spends 3000 metal on a lab + 300 metal on a consul + 700 metal on a pitbull you should either have teched yourself and can now build units that kill t2 popups or already won with your extra 4000 metal in T1 combat units.

Sure, T2 popups in consul is pretty convenient, but it’s not good enough to justify handing out to your whole team, which was the whole problem in the first place

[waxen copper]

because the problem isn't with the guy that made the consul making pitbulls, it's the fact that he can then give a frontliner a consul and they can now make pitbulls, so with only an investment of 300 metal and no time, they now gain the ability to make t2 popup defenses anywhere on the map

[turbid remnant]

Yeah but it’s a turret, there’s no advantage in giving someone else with a worse economy a combat engineer when you can just build it yourself, the advantage in handing out T2 production is that the frontline can then micro those. The entire point of a combat engineer is to make defenses around the map. Are you going to somehow ban backliners from making anti nukes or flak to protect the frontline too?

[waxen copper]

the frontliner is going to have a much stronger economy at the point in time when the backliner can sell consuls, and unlike anti nuke and flak, the t2 popups can be used offensively because they can secure territory

[turbid remnant]

When backline is selling consuls they’re getting T2 mex and the frontline is still on T1? And sure but by the time the frontline turret creeps you with T2 popups you have enough time to get out one t2 vehicle arty or sheldons and make them all useless, or just go around them with your T1 on any map except strait, or get sharpshooter, arbiter, or negotiator. Popup turrets are really easy to play around if you do literally anything except drive your t1 army into them to die

[dusk flint]

Popup turrets are really easy to play around if you do literally anything except drive your t1 army into them to die
Based on prior video evidence, it may well be that this is the preferred tactic people have for dealing with popups

[midnight trout]

yeah that was quite a thing

"fuck me this is OP"
continues to run misc raiding units into THE SAME DAMN PORC for the better part of half an hour

[turbid remnant]

Surely the 15th hound will win the 1v1

[midnight trout]

maybe we've stumbled on the method to determine which players are actually AIs

[turbid remnant]

Just played a game where I spammed a bunch of hounds one at a time into scorpions and they didn’t win, I think next time I’ll try jaguars, those seem like they would do pretty well

[soft eagle]

popups op

[spare nacelle]

@midnight trout how to use tweakdef?

[midnight trout]

swearing, mostly