#More professional tone in moderation messages.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

lost drum
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Reluctantly opening the can of worms that is moderation - especially after checking the post history - but I wanted to comment that to me as a relatively new outsider, that a lot of these moderation messages strike me as patronizing.

I understand it is volunteers on an informal basis, but I believe it could reduce discontent with the moderation at hand, especially with some of the concerns raised regarding “special treatment”.

I know there is a lot of room for interpretation and ultimately sometimes a tough call to make to decide what is trolling and what is being clueless / having a bad day.

I’d prefer if the messages kept formal or perhaps use more templates.

Also, apologies if this thread was there before, I looked for “tone” and “moderation” and mainly found other discussions.

limpid creek
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That's good feedback, can you - when you can, no rush - point out any particular examples?

feral yarrow
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It is kind of interesting that you can almost tell which actions are done by the same mod. Templates to make that more homogeneous and consistent looking would be interesting for sure.

limpid creek
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I started working on such templates, but had to postpone that for now - partially due to the increasing backlog of reports we haven't been able to get to recently

lost drum
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“Meanwhile, you keep bullying new players.” #🛡️｜moderation-bot message

The code of conduct citation already carries the offence, that sentence was arguably unnecessary and at least to me read a bit petty.

There is quite a few scrolling up but this one kind of kicked this thread off: #🛡️｜moderation-bot message

“Take a break and rethink your approach to the game.” - banned for three weeks.

If I read that message and was the one banned I’d probably feel like people are taking the piss.

limpid creek
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Agreed, on second thought neither of these are great

lost drum
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#🛡️｜moderation-bot message

Just found this one, this one feels a lot more like a DM than a public, transparent moderation.

feral yarrow
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Does it make sense to ring it back to be as dry as possible, with just the CoC section citation, count of offense within last 90 days or something, and maybe an optional comment to include "dgunning allies" "reclaiming allied structures" or a single example of the chat abuse "including but not limited to $%^#"?

lost drum
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Providing a specific violation with a timestamp and replay certainly can reinforce the validity of a moderation action (and gives less room for dispute), whilst remaining more impersonal also protects the moderator.

Speaking from personal experience, some people don’t take it well.

feral yarrow
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I'd be a little concerned with the replays being posted, I think, though I have noticed replays included once or twice in actions, so maybe it's fine.

lost drum
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Included it since I saw a lot of people asking for replays, I am unsure how the mods go about it.

feral yarrow
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I feel like people already get up in arms from just the summary, and the replay being available may add fuel to that fire, is my theory. I think the defending of the specific actions the player took in the game should be handled in appeals exclusively, so I suppose I don't see the value adding the replay link provides other than for the sake of transparency (which could be a legit reason itself for a lot of community members).

lost drum
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I would assume 99% of the people seeing the transparent moderation won’t check the evidence anyways.

But transparency is why this log exists in the first place, I assume. Which is why I find it important that the moderation is “proper” foxyinboxy

vital gazelle
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Tbh I like the informal tone, it makes it feel more cozy and less corporate like

lyric crest
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considering the actions taken are formal ones i think keep the attitude out of moderation chat

vital gazelle
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I mean I don’t think it’s much different from kicking a player from a lobby and the guy kicked usually knows he broke the rules

lost drum
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I am all for informal moderation, but the messages should not sound like talking down to someone like “read the rules”

lyric crest
lyric crest
torpid gorge
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People can avoid the issue of receiving a patronising ban message by never getting into the situation to receive one in the first place. This seems to be a vexing concept to grasp for many players, especially those frequenting the 'top tier' lobbies.

lyric crest
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well once I learn how to float on a cloud Ill let everyone else know

limpid creek
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please do

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So... I don't think these are ever going to become 100% professional and formal

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I mean, unless I leave the moderation team

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For the very simple reason that injecting some humor or sass into them keeps me relatively sane while getting through them, and that I already have enough professionalism at work to also have that on my volunteer time

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But I will do my best to avoid being patronising in there, that point is well taken

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And feel free to say so if I fail or forget, I will appreciate it

wooden marsh
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idk about the tone, but just wanted to say I highly appreciate the improvements in the moderation, as Teifion's "stop trolling" messages before was really up to too much intepretation before, and I think moderation team has come a long way and definitely improved the experience:

  • we now get at least CoC quotation
  • additional information
limpid creek
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seriously though, if trolling, plz stop

lost drum
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That is already very good to hear. Should probably pitch in that I am very happy as well with the transparency about it and the fact the rules are cited. foxyinboxy

Also, some personality should 100% remain just to not be a faceless ban. (See discord, bleh)

small tulip
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What people consider trolling is highly subjective

lyric crest
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not really

feral yarrow
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I think it's pretty clear when someone's instigating.

lyric crest
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its either obvious or its not, if its not then we'll never know if it was trolling

limpid creek
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I would tend to agree with kyouma, trolling cases are some of the most difficult to handle, so we vote on every case

lyric crest
small tulip
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Lsr mentioned that quote for a reason, you can search it up if you want proof 🙂

lyric crest
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on a side note how many are currently involved with moderation? I swear I only see Perfi, Ptaq and Teifions names in other parts of the server

unreal solar
grave haven
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I think someone mentioned this, and I have no idea what the moderation process is so it might exist but… can we implement a less custom response to the moderated user? Maybe the moderation process leaves less possibility for custom messages. For example, list the responses or violations as selectable boxes. I know we do that to a degree, but maybe strictly limit it to a drop down of selectable options rather than an open ended free text box.

limpid creek
lyric crest
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if the mods have to put in effort watching a replay, the least i can do is take a minute to type something

limpid creek
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I think Chad was talking about the messages in #🛡️｜moderation-bot, not the ones we see in #⚠️｜overwatch-reports (yup 😉 ) that are based on people reporting someone.

That report box may be changing in the future, too.

lyric crest
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in which case I like the thought and effort that occurs in a case-by-case analysis and wouldn't have it any other way 😄

swift mortar
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I would offer even here, for example, it's not necessary to tell everyone the exact offense - the offender likely is well aware of it already, and if not, are welcome to open a ticket on Discord to talk with the moderation team. Telling everyone what they did is a sort of public shaming, and more likely to make this person further distrust authority and not be interested in hearing their side of things:
It's 2023 and switching to Dutch to insult another player, their mother and, for some reason, the city of Antwerp, is not a good way of sidestepping detection.
Just posting which parts of the CoC were violated is enough, with an invitation for further discussion with moderation team via ticket if desired.

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If you want to send a more personalized message to the person being moderated, I think that's fine, but such a message shouldn't be delivered publicly.

feral yarrow
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That change to more clear comments came about after scag's most recent ban and the uproar that came along with it. That being said, I generally would agree that public shaming isn't necessary for moderated users, and it helps encourage the mudslinging that happens in Main, getting people muted.

crystal ocean
# swift mortar I would offer even here, for example, it's not necessary to tell everyone the ex...

This!

The playerbase is already kinda low and I see in the moderation channel kinda a lot known names, who usually behave very well in their most matches.

Many of them love this game and are competitive players. So, they sometimes maybe speak a bit too harsh if the 4th noob (who is maybe already playing >200 hours) in a row is ruining their gaming experience (which is imo sometimes more toxic than some words).

I think there should be some kind of balance between welcoming "new players/mediocre players" and not pushing the more competitive ones away.

In most competitive sports -if your team is not doing so well- there might be some harsh words in the heat of the moment, either by teammembers or by the fans, especially if you tried it nicely x times.
I personally rather like a person in my team, who tries his best and sometimes maybe gets a bit upset at the edge of a loss than a person who just does nothing and plants afus after afus while the team cries for help several times.

And especially here it gets a bit problematic since competitive players (who do all for their team) meet fun players (who give a fuck about their team and only play for their own fun). So, it is not easy to keep the moderation balance.

slim bloom
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people have very specifically said that they want more context in moderation messages (implied because they do not trust the moderation team) so I think it's totally reasonable to now include more information. just including coc violation doesn't matter if the public doesn't believe the moderation team is acting in good faith

You may call it "shaming" but this is the natural result of the moderation team basically needing to prove themselves. You can't have accessible transparency to moderation team decisions and also well... a non transparent, standardized message

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I don't mind either way, in my experience the moderation team is justified in their responses and the game mechanics and playerbase have obviously demonstrated a need for moderation such that standardized responses would be fine for me, but this is what the people wanted

feral yarrow
fading dagger
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There aren't enough words in the world to describe all the ways people cause each other grief; it's impossible to write them all into law or pre-made messages.

swift mortar
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I still disagree, you can make the records of what has happened publicly accessible without posting them in a public channel for all to read. There are logs associated already with the moderation messages which can't be accessed. <- sorry this is discord only, but it's a way to help with that problem.

fading dome
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i prefer mod messages to be verbose and they are quite entertaining, and if everyone can read the mistakes you make it makes for a good incentive to not break rules.

lost drum
harsh mason
grave haven
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I think we’re making this a lot more complicated than it has to be. Just leave a few different options for the moderator to select from. Maybe even a reference to the exact section in the CoC that was violated. This shouldn’t be hard in any facet. Then the moderated user receives this information in whatever way is easiest on the developers, a notice when they log into the client maybe. This channel where everyone can search everyone’s dirty laundry should be deleted. And If the moderated user has any questions they can submit a ticket. I’d bet nine out of ten moderated users wouldn’t need any more than the notice they sent.

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Once again, I don’t know how much of this is already implemented but if it was all already a part of the process then I don’t think we’d be having this conversation. Or just copy how other games do it

grave haven
fading dagger
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I imagine some of the commentary in the moderation notes may be preemptive responses to tickets, to avoid that extra hassle.

grave haven
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I’d love to put it politely but that’s ridiculous haha

limpid creek
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It's absolutely ridiculous!

It's also true, by the way

swift mortar
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It's also possible to preemptively respond to a ticket by sending the message in a non-public way, such as to the player's in-game account or via bot DM on Discord or both.

limpid creek
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Possible, yes. Always feasible with the current stack? No

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Both good ideas

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The latter only possible if they have an obvious discord account

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I haven't seen anywhere a display of linked discord account for the teiserver messages, if any of you use that

swift mortar
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Send it to the email the account was registered with, there are perhaps many paths.

limpid creek
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While the former, asynchronous messages - someone logs in, they get a message that was sent while they were offline - is not atm implemented in teiserver (it's possible, but... on the list)

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Email is a workable idea but we've already had problems with getting caught by spam filters around the blamewntrgaming wave of new accounts, that's something to think about

swift mortar
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I feel like the message is more likely to reach them through that route than if they aren't on the Discord at all to see it in the #🛡️｜moderation-bot channel.

feral yarrow
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That does create a weird path that we see a lot. "Why'd I get banned?" "Idk, check Discord" joins discord freaks out in main gets muted

limpid creek
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Moderation messages (on warnings, mutes, suspends) do reach them (though, as I understand it, they currently do so via a pretty nasty hack 😄 that I wouldn't like to get into here)

limpid creek
feral yarrow
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Fair. Bias remembering the coo-coo birds I guess.

grave haven
# limpid creek It's absolutely ridiculous! It's also true, by the way

True for you maybe. But not everyone shares your perspective. And didn’t you say by you personally posted semi degrading comments in moderation responses to keep yourself sane? This is what I mean. That is not okay. If this goes to steam and 1000 new players see something like some of the responses in the moderation comments, I’d bet that’ll hurt retention. Probably not a lot and maybe some will like that custom tailored response. But it’s a decision you’ll have to make how you want BAR to be perceived

limpid creek
grave haven
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If a general player can have a bad day, so can a moderator. Seems it would be easier to just keep the moderated responses to multi selections and not free form text. And devs would have more control. Wouldn’t have to moderate moderators if they have a bad day and say something they don’t mean

limpid creek
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At this point, I disagree, but I'd be happy to have my mind changed on that. I will however disengage for now, because 💤

swift mortar
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I think if the purpose of moderation is to help foster a community, it takes building relationship with the members whose behaviors you'd like to see improve while allowing them to remain players of the game. Please know this is much like what a teacher has to do in a classroom, it's evidence proven that punitive measures are far less effective in behavior management than recognizing those who meet expectations and giving supportive, achievable goals for growth.

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I think an analogous support is that we give the people who need to use abusive language an outlet somehow that doesn't greatly affect or negatively impact the rest of the community. Meanwhile we help them reduce the need for this support as the rejoin the community in a more calm, civilized manner.

vital gazelle
uneven cradle
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Rather than discussing the merits to theoretical moderation implementations that would take time and very careful planning, I'd like to propose an idea that can impact the immediate future: how about public moderation comments require a peer review for professionalism? it's extra work on a team that already seems stretched, so it's not perfect. but, maybe it also creates an easier-to-fill position for new contributors to just review and not be as responsible for moderation decisions, and get used to what the team does.
It won't catch everything and depends on the integrity of the review, so it's a fair question to ask if it's worth it; I couldn't tell ya. But, prevention is usually better than reaction, even in community interaction.

grave haven
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@lost drum I guess there isn’t really an answer on this one. I don’t think you’d advocate for reporting whoever moderated you. It sounds like you just simply want a more professional response. But the devs prefer a personal response only

lost drum
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FoxyyThink I am fine with relatively informal moderation so long as it isn't demeaning.
I wasn't moderated yet, but some of the things in the chat felt a bit odd to me as a bystander.

grave haven
grave haven
uneven cradle
lost drum
placid birch
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you should always tell what rule they broke

crystal ocean
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Isnt that whole moderation behavior small picture thinking?

I mean the plan of this game is to go big - then you will also have more young players here, who typically behave less good.
Additionally, you will not have time to write a lot of poems. So, I think the selection method @grave haven suggest is mostly feasible and then maybe a little comment how to improve.

If you compare the average communication in BAR with LoL or DotA it is typically very very nice here.
For certain things ppl say here you would never ever get moderated in Lol or DotA. And i m not sure, if some people would keep playing this game if they get moderated for things they consider in many other games as ok.

I think you should make a little poll among a selected pool of average players (including young players), what measures are enough before in the future for instance young ppl get driven away by "overmoderation"

placid birch
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lol and dota are toxic as hell. just cause you can tolerate getting insulted every 2 matches, doesn't mean plp like it

lost drum
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Not advocating for less moderation of people. Why they have been banned also absolutely valid.

Comments? Private. Imho anyways.

crystal ocean
placid birch
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it's not educating people it's what ever level they want to enforce for the community
imo the thing about modding here that's a problem is there's no place to discuss/ask mods in public. if you are bullying people, one modding message that isn't even that patronizing is like w/e.
It's that no one is allowed to talk about, threatened with mutes and shit, that cast doubt onto modding. Main isn't the place but there should be a place.

crystal ocean
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Which is basically educating - especially if it is not done in the most games in a very enforced way. I get the idea behind it, I am just not sure, if it will easily work in a competitive game with much time to type.

Now it still works, since the average age is probably relatively high.

feral yarrow
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I'm not sure that I'd be able to get behind the idea of "Other gaming communities put up with toxicity, so by default we should have to as well." The educating moment for those who aren't able to get through a game with their peers without berating them is mod actions; warning, chat restrictions, login restrictions.

placid birch
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it's not like they are banning people on the first go, they are warning. if you can't adjust to bar you can go play a different game

lost drum
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if I may step in, aren't we straying away from the original point of "tone of comments in the moderation message"?

feral yarrow
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Yes, very common theme when this topic comes up to be honest.

placid birch
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i dont' think there is a significant problem with the tone in comments
yeah it could be improved a bit but really it's just: You did X which broke the rules, please try doing Y.

feral yarrow
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Sometimes they're sassy. I enjoyed their comment to Choice about how they assume he has the CoC bookmarked at this point.

placid birch
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if you are that BM a single sassy message won't kill you. and they are still like 80% utilitarian

crystal ocean
lost drum
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If the moderation was simply transparent that's still fine by me, personally I'd prefer it private altogether, but apparently the community raises a fuss then.

But public moderation AND sass towards the offense? Eh... that's when it turns from transparent moderation to a pillory, really.

placid birch
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how can modding be transparent if it's private
and no one can discuss modding actions in public

uneven cradle
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Regardless if some people disagree with the premise of the thread, specific examples were provided that the mod comment author agreed were demeaning. This thread was to point it out and consider ways to improve it
suggestions so far:

  • private moderation comments, but public moderation actions
  • no comments, use a pre-made selection system
  • a peer review system for reviewing tone in the message, not the moderation action
    if I missed something let me know and I'll add it here as a TL:DR;
placid birch
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I guess it can make sense for messages to made more succint/dry for public records

lost drum
placid birch
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fair

crystal ocean
uneven cradle
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that's the open ticket interface, which creates a private ticket between you and the moderation team

crystal ocean
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but couldnt this still exist if it s private? I think no mod want to discuss in an open thread with 100 people if it was just or not (especially with bigger playerbase -> have fun)

placid birch
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the player way want to bring it up in a public thread, and discuss mod actions

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also people who are here to take a piss at every mod action are part of the problem. if there is public space players can back up that X was toxic, etc.

crystal ocean
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sounds democratic, but also huge effort.

Wouldnt be a 2 stage process easier:

  1. contact with mod team
    -> if no solution found (which hopefully barely happens)
  2. discuss it in the regarding channel publicly
placid birch
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i assume most people would prefer talking privately. it's only in some cases of perceived mistreatment or disagreement that a public thread (not main) would improve transparency

lost drum
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Very much so the case.

Generally a "positive public, negative private" seems to work well on an individual (and from personal experience) moderation basis.

placid birch
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by peer reviews do you mean peer review the messages, or peer review the whole modding action?
cause the latter will sort of double the work. in grey areas it's good to get 2nd opinions tho

uneven cradle
crystal ocean
placid birch
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ah okay

fading dagger
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In business, is a bit of a different environment. You're sucking up to people to get them to not leave or sue you.

lyric crest
limpid creek
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All right, let me address some of that feedback for you 🙂 There's going to be a bunch compressed here, but that's all I have time for today. Sorry it's in an essentially random order.

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  • I did handle a good bunch of reports yesterday, some about people I know from those reports all too well, and being only human, I can't help being annoyed at people making people's BAR experience worse (and, of course, also giving me additional work). I do try to keep that annoyance out of the actions, but I suppose I did fail at that yesterday - will try harder, as I've said already.
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  • Personally, I think #🛡️｜moderation-bot also serves a useful role as a kind of supplement to the Code of Conduct. The latter mentions some examples, but if you actually want to see what's against the rules and how (not) to behave, looking through actual examples is more helpful than seeing "SylvanasDidNothingWrong got moderated for B4 - griefing" (now, if they got moderated for C2, that's probably self-explanatory enough 😄 ). But that's me.
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  • I feel like Chad is somewhat stirring things up, and if we're discussing tone, I don't appreciate the tone you're using to complain about this 🙂 Feedback, sure, I'll take. Gripping, I'll be less likely to.
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  • #🛡️｜moderation-bot will likely evolve a lot before the game grows, and it'll likely have to be rethought by the time of the Steam release. However, at this stage, I'm not comfortable going "Hey Teifion, could you drop all the important fixes and Tachyon improvements you're doing and completely rework #🛡️｜moderation-bot from the ground up?", so it'll have to stay that way for now. I am slowly learning Elixir on the side though 😉
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  • I don't have the exact data and I'm basing this off a single plot Teifion once showed me, but the concerns about this stunting population size are unfounded, moderation actions affect a minuscule portion of the player base. I would in fact suspect that moderation has positive effect on population size by preventing offenders from driving people away, as happens - and is documented in - LoL and DotA, for example. I dont' have the data to back that statement, though, just operating on a hunch.
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  • Peer review for all actions is a nice idea in an ideal world in which we don't live, right now I can tell you that we have nowhere close to the manpower this would take. But we do some of it in Overwatch threads! Those are mostly for in-game actions, though.
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  • While I'm glad some of you like the humor in #🛡️｜moderation-bot, entertainment is, of course, not its primary function, more a side effect. At the same time I will say that I am unlikely to keep all jokes out, because I literally put them into everything and having to self-censor myself would take even more time and effort (as long as they're not harmful or abrasive; I'd like to think most of them aren't). So, at least at this stage, you can either have moderation with some bad jokes (and please gib feedback when they completely fall flat or become disrespectful), accept a boatload of griefing, or you'll have to find more volunteers (which we'll most likely need at some stage).
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  • Resopmok's point about moderation being meant to foster a community I completely agree with! However at this stage, we're sort of blocked by technical issues. For example, I'd like to be able to give more mutes, but we've had to abandon that for now because of the Spring networking protocol (mutes prevent people from pinging and communicating that they're sharing resources, asking for T2, etc). Once that's done, and maybe once we can implement the ping wheel by Errrrrr the widget wizard? Sure. If you have further proposals for that, I'd be happy to see them... preferably in another thread? 🙂
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I am so bloody glad to be slowmode immune right now.

placid birch
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"moderation actions affect a minuscule portion of the player base. "
this, fr

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thanks for the responses 👍

limpid creek
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  • Transparency, unfortunately for historical reasons tied to distrust of the moderation team by a rather vocal part of the community (you know who you are 😉 ), is unfortunately necessary at this stage. Also, a drier form of "you're suspended, B4, 4th offence, stop trolling, see you in 4 weeks" isn't transparent, doesn't help people learn, doesn't let them know precisely what they did that's not okay. I do think that's necessary to get people to change their ways. See points raised above by LSR and Amojini. I will however do my best to ensure it doesn't turn into pillorying.
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  • Finally - I've literally been a moderator for three weeks now. If you expect me to be good at the job by now, I have bad news for you 😄 I'm learning and slowly improving, but it will take time, it won't happen overnight. Please be patient with me and - by all means! 😄 - give feedback. I don't guarantee I'll agree with all of it - I would like to make everyone happy but that's not possible - but I'll at least consider it.
lyric crest
limpid creek
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I would also appreciate if you didn't rag on anyone else in the team

lyric crest
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One of the significantly better ones

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I think if someone who is incharge of setting forth new rules and procedures and don't proactively discuss the ins and outs of who it's going to effect to some degree, before it's implementation, then they're shooting themselves in the foot.

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Wherever the other mods are come chat to us some more, yes we bite a bit but we would appreciate the attention 😁

vital gazelle
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Tbh as a sidenote I’d like to note that having a thread complaining about tone of mod messages means that the community doesn’t have any real issues with the way moderators are doing their jobs (no abuse of power, favoritism etc)

lyric crest
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Depends on your interpretation on whether polite behaviour is a "real issue"

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Oh and said interpretation of polite

vital gazelle
lyric crest
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Doesn't matter where you are mate, I was going into the military at one point 😅 At the end of the day social niceties are somewhat necessary for getting along with neighbours.

vital gazelle
# lyric crest Doesn't matter where you are mate, I was going into the military at one point 😅...

Yes but if you’re getting modded you’re stepping outside of the social nicety boundaries, usually fully aware of it. So an impolite message has a bit of pedagogical effect if it makes you feel uneasy since it places you in position of someone offended by your behavior in the first place.

Furthermore since for many people BAR is not their “main” game a ban might not be puninitive enough(since they will just switch to tarkov or sth), perhaps fewer people would break CoC if their were heavily made fun of in the mod channel 🤔

lyric crest
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While I can't be polite and blunt with someone, I can be blunt and respectful at the same time. The line that determines that is whether the comments are degrading towards one or more of the involved parties.

If a ban isn't enough then they'll get filtered out soon enough, that's not a moderation problem that's a problem with the players attitude.

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The key is not politeness as I mistakenly said earlier but rather respect. My bad 😋

vital gazelle
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But why would you want to be respected if you’re breaking the rules ?

limpid creek
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Everyone deserves respect

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You might be breaking the rules but that doesn't justify... things

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oh the things I've seen recently

small tulip
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I dont think you would get moderated for telling a person to quit in any other game tbh.

limpid creek
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T'was a warn. In the future I'd like to separate "warnings" from "reminders", to really bring the point home that some of these are just "hey, heads up, we have rules, read them"

small tulip
limpid creek
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A year's a long time, and we'll see how this looks like by then. As a reminder - we do take honest and well-intentioned feedback, especially if it doesn't devolve into hurling abuse our way.

small tulip
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Ye moderation is becoming better slowly thanks to you, but you should understand why people dont trust it after past examples. Anyway if I find myself tilting at all I just resign to not get moderated for smth silly. Yes my team will lose some games like this but what can I do.

crystal ocean
limpid creek
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25v25 when?

vital gazelle
limpid creek
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I don't think this line of discussion is headed anywhere productive 😅

crystal ocean
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western ppl get offended by alot of stuff. Eastern ppl are more thick skinned as you said.

Though, online is maybe a different topic since you say here a lot of things which most ppl would never say in RL.

Idk, in questions like this i am big fan of small representative polls, since we already have a biased sample in this thread.

feral yarrow
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I think a pretty big shift in how they are approaching disclosing information on mod actions taking place recently warrants holding off for a bit to see what people think before formally polling the community.

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(If they even decide to go that route at all, that is).

grave haven
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Id have to agree that this thread has been resolved

lost drum
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Indeed, from my side it can also be closed, thank you for participating in the discussions.