banisher

[fickle badger]

Medium tanks do far better in that role of tanking damage from banisher

[desert raft]

What about this?
Give them two separate fire modes

A high explosive mode and a high explosive anti tank
HE mode has slightly more edgedamage for aoe and more radius
HEAT mode has less aoe and less edgedamage but more damage in geneal

[slate pasture]

Yeah, but med tanks can't shoot back as easy. xD

[fickle badger]

The gdt will say no to that

[desert raft]

Yea fair

[slate pasture]

Only arm gets the gimmicks. >_>"

Hounds with 2 modes for whatever reason.

[fickle badger]

Arm is losing gimmicks like gauss /plamsa cannon on hounds at some point

[desert raft]

Seriously?
I love that

[slate pasture]

And Thor's gimmick? Get rid of it, too? ;D (DEATH TO (FILTHY) aRMADA)

If Banishers could shoot 360 degrees, they could hypothetically perfect kite Thor's until they run out of space

[fickle badger]

This used to be a thing when reverse gear existed

Which isn’t part of the game even as a mod option anymore

[slate pasture]

Eew reverse gear starlights

[fickle badger]

Imagine reverse gear subs

[slate pasture]

I can't. I don't know what a sub is. You must be making things up. Next you'll tell me that water exists.

[fickle badger]

Water does in fact exist

[slate pasture]

Ah, yeah, another nutter telling me water is real. I've met plenty of your kind, I know how to deal with you. I bet next you'll try to convince me that there's a map other than All That Glitters.

[naive frigate]

Personally I'm not for a banisher range buff, I think the unit should imitate the janus more
in t2 a unit that has to move in to fire off a devastating burst of damage is far less OP then in t1, banisher should probably get 2 round burst and 750 range so it's a dedicated tank killer that doesn't have to get chased around half the map to achieve its goal.

[deft rampart]

idea of sheldon is they are the best skirmisher but most expensive and elast throughput

[fickle badger]

They are meant to be a long range skirmisher
That’s about it
They just have a lot of fake power density
Just like old missile trucks

[slate pasture]

I thought you were talking about Banishers for a moment. All could also apply, lol.

I don't care for sheldons because I'm always playing core veh, and never have a problem with sheldons. Banisher / Tremor > sheldons. Sheldons basically the most prime target for Tremors.

Also sheldons take forever to get anything done. Banishers can at least kill something before it gets away to be healed or reclaimed.

[deft rampart]

sheldons build fast and low e cost

real good for early pushes and you can reclaim them when they are not useful

[naive frigate]

yeah i think by the time a tremor reaches the front and kills your ball of sheldons they allready have done their job

[slate pasture]

A tremor is like, 5 Sheldon? Just dance some grunts around or bully them with leftover med tanks until Tremor or Banisher shows up

5 Sheldon isn't killing much anytime soon

[naive frigate]

tremor costs 25 times the energy and is really slow

and if you rush it the enemy could have just rushed a tzar wich beats the tremor so you can never have the tremor as your first unit meaning it hits the front even later

[deft rampart]

tremor is just in response to over commitment to sniper/sheldon

[slate pasture]

Tremor same speed as Tzar, and sometimes I do rush it out first unit from t2, lol. Like what Chronopolize said, if enemy overcommits to sniper/Sheldon/Mausers/Quaker/Hounds/Starlights, etc.

Tremor is super strong now. Website also needs to be updated to reflect change

[slate pasture]

What is current balance mod Banisher changes ?

[floral lance]

retargetting, tiny buff to damage and reload

[slate pasture]

ive only played with it on a few times, seems decent

[sand zephyr]

So I read up to 08/18... I am still here to say** Banishers need love.**

Banishers not being able to fill the same role as starlights REALLY hurts them.

If the aim is to make them good anti spam, then** increase the AoE, and shorten the reload time **while leaving or only slightly lowering the damage per missile.

IF they they are supposed to be the less precise version of a starlight then make them doe more damage per missile and improve the tracking, and maybe give them an HP buff.

Being able to shoot all directions and while moving really doesn't make up for everything else. Yes they have AA but in almost all cases you aren't building them for that.

The other thing you could do to help balance them would be to give them a second weapon to deal with lighter threats so you don't lose them to a few leaked grunts/janus/jaguars.

[floral lance]

they are neither

they're heavy skirmishers, anti T1 mopup, T2 harrass. starlight is anti T3 (and anti everything else)

not quite all directions either, and balance pack does two of the things you suggest. hp usually not too relevant for banishers, if they're being attacked they're dead

[deft rampart]

easiest answer is numbers

starlight has overtuned throughput for its accuracy, banisher even when it's doing well, it's just ignorable
as it's too vunerable to really get in your face easily

[desert raft]

starlight is just anti t2
which is kinda busted when its the only anti t2 unit

[floral lance]

it's anti anything really, but particularly monoliths, such as rushed T3s

[naive frigate]

starlights need to cost 20K energy at the very least, i dont know why they cost less then sharpshooters in E and less then banishers aswell

[floral lance]

they do cost a bit to fire, but yeah, OP unit is OP. Balance pack tames their reload, which makes them feel more sane

[deft rampart]

their low E cost upfront is bonus OP value, if you mess up and lose them you don't get taxed for their e cost
you can make starlights, then make energy gen while they are walking to the front

[vague prism]

Banishers are so sick they don’t need any buffs rn

People just need to learn to use them

[arctic thunder]

Please teach us! IMHO they are just worse Janus with a longer range!

[wispy depot]

Banishers much like tzar r supposed to be a tempo unit

If u reactively make these units they're basically useless

Like making rocketbots when enemy already has 7 of their own

[arctic thunder]

When are banishers good?

[wispy depot]

800E t2 lab just finished 2 banishers

[slate pasture]

2-3 Banishers (+ mobile radar/jammer) usually first things out of my t2 veh lab. Similar to Tzar rush, but trading some dps for mobility + range.

2-3 Banishers seems to be the magic number, any more than that is usually asking for trouble. 2 Banishers to 1shot med tanks/hounds or 2-shot commanders. 3 Banishers to 2-shot tigers/bulls.

[slate pasture]

Doesn't stop me from trying more than 2-3 Banishers, though.

https://tenor.com/view/ill-fucking-do-it-again-ill-do-it-again-again-goofy-gif-21090281

I just find when I do more than 2-3, starlight's / snipers start coming out making them idle, or a bunch of ticks will run into them and half will die to friendly fire, or a t2 popup arty will stall me forever, or I get out scaled and t3 poops on them

[vague prism]

The way I use banishers is the follow up unit immediately after a tremor rush

[desert raft]

tremor rush?

[deft rampart]

banisher cost so much e tho
you have to pay all the e cost before they pop, unlike starlight, you can make the e as they walk

starlight has 1250 vs 1000 burst, 950 vs 800 range, 266 dps at max range vs 133

yeah banisher is 54 vs 42 speed, but the throughput is a lot less

[vague prism]

just shoot at the starlight with your tremor, they'll turn and run away
then u go in with ur banisher and ur shooting starlights in the ass
133 dps vs 0

[ruby bison]

If u run away with starlights ur doing it wrong xD

[desert raft]

counter to this is 10 medium tanks
or spam

[vague prism]

tremor kills those

heres a good replay of using banisher follow up tremor as well as what happens when starlights dont run away
https://bar-rts.com/replays/ee0ac3669883bdd658132fa2ffe88667

[deft rampart]

yeh lol there was this situation where I was fighting 1 tzar and 1-2 grunts with 1 starlight
realized couldn't run away and charged the tzar into close range. funny when the long range laser weapon doubles its dps at zero range

[pseudo sphinx]

Starlights will move straight into shots, tremor aims most shots infront of the target

[slate pasture]

Yes. It's a very strong first unit from lab. What else you gonna rush from a t2 lab, a tiger? Banisher/Tremor/Tzar are only units I make a t2 lab for, basically. Brutes and Grunts fill roles of Tigers/Salamanders better.

Maybe Quakers, but they just die to t1 too easy. Banisher much much more survivability

[desert raft]

Sheldon ball works

Sumos work great too if your afraid of being D gunned

A singular arti bot works ok

Sometimes I find that 3 arbiters work great
Since you can simultaneously dismantle most porc on front for 3 different fronts

Plus they get out there fast

[vague prism]

those are not vehicles

[desert raft]

You already got 3 options for vehicles alone
Why do you need more

You only have 7.5 Frontline combat vehicles anyway

You can go 3 negotiators and share them to your allies if you see fit

Also you said t2 lab
Not t2 veh lab

[slate pasture]

True, I should have been more precise.

[pseudo sphinx]

Sala one of the most op units in the game, it does not fill the role of brute/grunt, it far exceeds those with superior accuracy, firepower, mobility (+sea), anti emp.

[visual tiger]

They’re good in small team games and saw quite a bit of succeed in a lot of scrims leading to the tournament

[visual tiger]

See one reason this is the case is because you play on glitters and you have maybe 5 mins max for expensive t2 tempo options before t3 comes online from someone purely scaling. A lot of balance concerns I see on these threads are that certain units are “op” on certain maps because economic scaling operates at a different pace depending on how choke heavy, wind heavy, geo heavy, etc. a map is.

Sometimes certain units are seen as op/underpowered because the window for their use is limited by map design

[pseudo sphinx]

Banisher has amazing burst (just like Tzar) but awful dps

Awful vs big hp units and even thugs if they got a bit of xp

[sand zephyr]

There is no world where a banisher should die to thugs. If it's not a case of terrible micro then that's proof banishers are under tuned.

I say give it a second salvo per reload and cut the damage in half so that it can target more units while leaving AOE the same, but then if there's only one unit it can unload both salvos on it.

This would address so much for banisher.

[vague prism]

Ya, overkill way worse on banisher than starlight because of projectile movement speed.

5 spaced banishers will target the same unit and overkill 4x whereas the same group of starlights would kill multiple units after the closest starlight kills

[slate pasture]

Would start to turn into a real t2 missile truck. Would come with all those burdens: have to make them kinda weak to keep them from becoming boring monocomp. Whistler meta fun?

Imo, I think I prefer it being a little bit clunky with long reload, so that if can be made stronger in its ideal conditions.

[sand zephyr]

It's reload would still be long.

The point of the 2nd salvo was just that it can better handle the over kill stuff and also makes it a little harder to overwhelm with sheer T1 spam, given that it's supposed to be good for AOE anti spam kinda

Banishers should be able to have logic/radios to talk to other banishers and aquire targets intelligently so that they don't do overkill.

Like if there's a grunt in front of a banisher and there's other banishers in range also the 2nd will choose a different target but that's a lot of coding just for one unit ... though I am sure the logic could be used for others too

[slate pasture]

Consider overkill a balancing tax that allows you to be stronger if you dont overkill

If you increase combat effectiveness by reducing overkill, that's an opportunity cost of increasing combat effectiveness in some other area

[sand zephyr]

Overkill is presently more a bug than a feature I don't think we should be balancing around it when other units don't

[deft rampart]

i don't mind over kill they just should never miss. banisher occasionally missing scouts and liche's is kinda messed up

you can reduce overkill by putting half of them on hold fire

[sand zephyr]

Ah yes... one more APM tax for cortex players that ARM doesn't need to worry about yet still performs better than

[deft rampart]

yeah but it also shoots up

starlight just needs to be toned down, i think starlight + spam massacres most of legion vehs

[sand zephyr]

Massacres almost everything* * *

[slate pasture]

tremors pooping on starlights atm

[deft rampart]

only on specific maps, and it's hard to be aggressive with tremor
they are more like a poop on area + nullify enemy units

i think if you are very good with your wall sim city you can make 1 rattlesnake + ambassadors work
the problem is how to kill the spam

[slate pasture]

Tremor > Rattlesnake

[sand zephyr]

Like in most cases right now where you would go banishers you could just go negotiator/ salamander and be better off.

or a 2 quakers instead of one banisher

[slate pasture]

quakers better than banisher if the only direction you want to go is forward , if you're lucky enough to be in that situation

otherwise banisher better in general field skirmishing; much greater survivability

also quakers really dont do much damag on target until you get a bunch of them, they arent super accurate. banishers usually dont miss

[vague prism]

I think people will come to realize that tremors kick ass since the buff on most if not all maps, it just takes time for that to diffuse through the meta

[pseudo sphinx]

Changing firerate from 0.5 to 0.4 doesnt really change the units capabilities, its just ppl using it wrong in that case if its now 'better'. It will still miss most of its shot if you cannot micro it properly.

But i do like the double fire modes are gone to lessen confusion.

[vague prism]

That’s a 25% dps buff which is enormous

If it previously killed a rattle in a minute it now does it in 48 seconds all else equal, and still costs the same.

Literally kills units rushing it that would’ve previously tanked tremor fire

10% buffs are considered large

[pseudo sphinx]

ya but you have to account for projectiles that misses too, it doesnt hit more projectiles

[vague prism]

It does 25% more dmg to units in its fire radius

For me at least it tipped the balance between providing value for its large E cost and not providing value when weighing up alternative choices like Sheldon and arbiter

Imagine if fiends got a 25% dps buff

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that they now out trade versus jags

As an extreme example which is obviously not a direct comparison but is an interesting thought experiment, think about what would happen if pawns got a 25% dps buff … nobody would ever play cortex in 1v1s

[ruby bison]

lol ur talking bout tremor in here. Change is that there is only 1 mode, with the spread being in mid of the different modes

[vague prism]

The real change is that fire rate went from 0.5 to 0.4

[ruby bison]

well yes and I dont like that 😦

[pseudo sphinx]

lol ok sorry. My test is wrong, i didnt open the rattle 😄

[vague prism]

Regardless, if it took 5 minutes to kill a rattle previously it now takes 4 minutes

[pseudo sphinx]

aiming behind its 1 minute approx, and a lot more by aiming straight at (started at 12:00)

[vague prism]

Given that, I’m sure you can see scenarios now where the tremor wins engagements that it previously would’ve lost?

Also I just realized this is the banisher thread

[pseudo sphinx]

i think tremor always been op, just that players dont use it, and using tremor without any sort of support you are doing it wrong, add some tick/scout spam

tremor does however excel when enemy is attacking, thats when you hit the most projectiles

single tremor finishes off 3 starlights with ease that are attacking (running into the projectiles thats about to land), also tremor has no use of pinpointers which is awesome.

[deft rampart]

they gave it focused fire mode with spread fire range?

did they document this change anywhere if it's in release game?

[pseudo sphinx]

dunno but ignore it because my test was botched, tremor op even with the spread fire

the current firemode size isnt mentioned

[deft rampart]

they just gave it raw 25% more dps?
wtf?

[visual tiger]

‘Twas a “bugfix” patch from hornet

[pseudo sphinx]

according to github they chose a middle mode 15 - 24 -> 20 angle spread

[vague prism]

It got 25% more dps I used to make tremors before the buff mostly inspired by Coura because they looked like fun, but you couldn’t afford to get critical mass on glitters before counters arrived or you were just straight up steamrolled by someone ignoring ur tremor because of the enormous upfront E cost.

Now 1 tremor is oppressive enough that you buy time to scale E and make more

They used to be mostly a meme unit now they’re squarely meta

Not uncounterable but aids to play against particularly if multiple people are making them

I’m not exaggerating when I say that for me this one change made arm t2 vehicles viable on glitters. I don’t like tzar because of sneaky Peter though so other may have good reasons for feeling differently

[floral lance]

there is a PR waiting that updates the in-game changelog, the website one was changed automatically on the commit

[arctic thunder]

In a recent ATG game, a teammate had a lot of banishers that were doing pretty well until the enemy set up a 3 lab afk tickspam towards them, they crumbled.

[vague prism]

Damn all those banishers and not a single Juno rip

U can also put 10 grunts infront of ur banishers to stop that

[pseudo sphinx]

If you have a single unit composition thats bound to happen. Setting up own spam against enemy spam would keep banishers alive

Also i think the use case for banisher is not for the whole game but to break porc, after that you build tougher units like Tigers or salas

[desert raft]

3 banisters is 3k metal
3 labs + con turrets is already more than 3k metal
Plus the actual cost of the ticks

That sounds like he got his metals worth out of those banishers

[arctic thunder]

If only said player had preplanned for the obvious response of tickspam

[sand zephyr]

Double fire modes?

[pseudo sphinx]

Focus/Spread. It does not exist now.

[slate pasture]

I think Skinner did some math, when you combine the raw dps buff along with the smaller target area, it amounts to like 185% single target dps compared to prior version

Is relevant to Banisher because it counters what countered Banishers.

Any large investment into starlights/snipers is kinda sketch now while Tremors could hit the field.

As for ticks, your answer is Grunt. (And maybe Salamanders)

[austere idol]

the main issue is the price, theres no reason why the banisher should cost more then a starlight

[desert raft]

agree
make the E price 10k less and banisher becomes perfect

[vague prism]

The reason is because it doesn’t cost E to fire

[austere idol]

yes but that assumes the banisher is just as good as starlight

[slate pasture]

Also Banisher needs much less escort.

Starlight is better if the only direction you need to go is forward, but Banisher has more survivability

[austere idol]

why would a rocket of 800 range cost as much as a 950 range laser? of course the banisher doesnt use energy that would be awfull

[gaunt trench]

Me watching some omega tourney streams: see 20 banishers running away from 4 starlights 😥

[fickle badger]

That same rocket is decently good at being aa

Banisher is extremely flexible in ways that starlight isn’t

Starlights have to practically be still in order to fire their weapon while banisher can easily be microed around the map

[austere idol]

the way the banisher is designed could make it usefull as a come back mechanic or as a means to stall the enemy while retreating, while the starlight offers superior firepower while your frontline still holds

it would make sense if the banisher would cost less because right now you cant make banishers as a response to leaks or anything and when your frontline is still stable theyre not as usefull as starlights

[deft rampart]

starlight can fire while moving at 90 degrees from their target, banisher is like 150 degree

[willow hull]

imo just let banishers fire in 360 degrees (would require some remodeling iirc) and make em cost like, 4k less e and boom op af

[slate pasture]

just firing 360 would probably make them op af lol

[willow hull]

ya the 4k less e is the af part

[deft rampart]

they only need to fire every 8 seconds or so, 150 degree (or 300degree) gives some skill expression

[ruby bison]

Ye first I didnt like that its not 360 degrees but I guess its alright actually

[fickle badger]

They can but the turn rate of the turret is so slow you cannot really be doing massive turns with starlight

[pseudo sphinx]

starlight is like a behemoth in movement, its a sitting duck with a bomb in it.

[arctic thunder]

I've seen 20 banishers run away from 40 ticks...

[sand zephyr]

And yet the majority of banishers I see in game rarely get to fire 10 shots lol

I imagine pros can find more value with them than lower tier players but idk.

Most folks will build atzar instead

I still think if we're dealing with lower alpha strike may as well double down and give it two vollies with the damage split across them per reload to allow them more flexibility.

Both shots still have a chance to miss too

[arctic thunder]

I think not true, Banishers cannot deal with spam at all, so require more of an escort to kill spam and need to be babysat, as if one tick gets through and sits in the middle of the group, it's GG. They also don't look after themselves very well if left unattended, whereas starlights with panthers on antispam duty are pretty effective afk.

[arctic thunder]

How far in front of your AOE unitsdo you put grunts, such that they are not killed by friendly fire? This has never worked for me as spam-screening units die pretty quickly, and core ones do not one-shot spam at max range. Welders and panthers work much better due to one-shotting several spam with their AOE lightning that does full damage at max range.

[vague prism]

close

[upper ridge]

you have a typo int the second Grunt... it's meant to say Rascal or Tick

[arctic thunder]

u gotta micro them

[slate pasture]

True, I usually have mixed spam.

But really, more Grunt solves most problems.

And often there will be leftover t1 vehs to escort for spam. A couple pounders and a few med tanks stops most threats against banishers. Add Grunt spam for vision, and at that point if your banishers die it's because you fked up or got gangbanged or outscaled.

Banishers can roam around the map much easier than Starlights. Can more quickly turn and retreat from overwhelming threats, and can return fire while retreating.

And let's not act like Starlights are immune from being stalled by spam.

[vague prism]

I agree with Coura, it’s mainly grunts, plus a few counter-units to whatever skirmishers your opponent picks to counter your grunts (i.e. Tigers if they making jags, pounders for medium tanks, AA bots/flak if they are spamming gunshits or shuriken)

[slate pasture]

The main advantage Banishers have over Quakers and other skirmishers is survivability. Maybe that could be emphasized with hp buff and/or speed buff (to match Quaker)

[pseudo sphinx]

advantages vs quaker:

• High burst, if you only need 1k dmg to kill the unit it insta dies and you can keep on moving. Quaker cannot do this and accuracy is somewhat poor, while Banisher has tracking.
• Can kite with its 'maxangledif = 270' meaning it can retreat, make a slight turn and insta-fire with fast turret turning. Quaker cannot do this, if you are retreating with quaker you would have to turn 90 degrees and the turret would take ages to align to the missing 90 degrees, in short it cannot kite at all.
• Can attack air. It has 100% dmg vs air so its actually op as air defense. Great at aoe smacking shuris.

I disagree that Banisher need more HP, after its first shot it becomes immune to 1-hit snipers. It cannot win 1v1 vs starlight but its not meant to be either.

Banisher needs support just like quaker/starlight, thinking its a Tiger/Sala is wrong. Its a valuable unit worth protecting with spam and repair. Add radarvehicle so it doesnt need 2x pinpointers, though i would argue all games should have 2x pinpointer fairly early.

Imo Banisher is one of the more unique Cortex units which there isnt a counter part for in Armada. It should be embraced as that and not become equivalent to starlight.

[floral pebble]

give it more speed or accel or both to emphasize its microability

that will make it stand out more as a high effort high reward unit compared to the easy to use quakers

[slate pasture]

I agree, it's not a starlight and shouldn't be turned into one.

Its timing window is a bit late into t2, and its hard to use it in t3 'cause it basically gets 1-shotted by Vanguards and Catapults

Also that 1-shot threshold with xp vs snipers holds true as long as the banisher hasn't been sneezed on by anything else.

[raven ether]

A technical update is gonna make it possible to add more impulse to units like the banisher without sending pawns into orbit. Imagine if the Banisher was to T2 stuff what the Pounder is to T1 stuff.

[gaunt trench]

Can we put a pin in that for the poison arrow instead?

[deft rampart]

making them "stop" heavy tanks will do a lot to making them better skirmishers
and "banishing" medium tanks down a cliff seems pretty funny

it is an interesting change

[cosmic remnant]

Love it!

[arctic thunder]

you mean a unit thats only useful if the enemy misclicks abd moves into it?

[raven ether]

Technical update exhibit.
You will notice that all the units except the largest heaviest ones are affected similarly by this impulse amount. Before the fix some of them would be launched into orbit.

The important thing about impulse isn't just that it moves the units around, it's that it resets their acceleration. This makes impulse especially annoying against vehicles.

[raven ether]

How intense it is is configurable. All I'm saying, the banisher is going to be a little spicier in the near future

[arctic thunder]

Great, it needa to be Much spicier if you ask me!

[floral lance]

impulse will be nice, but the units basic efficiency needs an overhaul really

[arctic thunder]

What's the mass of a mammoth and a pawn? Surely the mammoth should be affected about 50 times less than the pawn by the impulse? Doesn't look like it.

[raven ether]

The mammoth has 5, 001 mass in this video, and the pawn was assigned 1 mass for testing purposes

You are correct. The pawn should be sent to the Moon. We do not want the pawn to go to the Moon. That's why impulse effect is capped

[slate pasture]

I kinda want to banish a pawn to the moon. >_>"

[arctic thunder]

Yes, but it seems like the mammoth and pawn are similarly-affected, which is weird; the mammoth should barely be affected.

There was a time when they gave T1 artillery turrets a lot of impulse on high-firing mode, it was hilariously OP, one shot could take out a group of 5 tanks clustered together.

[raven ether]

Mammoth is nearly at impulse cap, the rest are at impulse cap

[naive frigate]

you can allready banish pawns into the oceans where they are stuck for the rest of their life

[raven ether]

That's the next thing I'm fixing.
Units that get stuck underwater should die.

[ruby bison]

*drown xD

[raven ether]

If I said that somebody would inevitably point out the fact that grunts don't have lungs lol

[rigid star]

Whats wrong with Banishers?

[quaint warren]

Water damaged circuits, leading to a twitching imploding electrical death

Like dropping a plugged in toaster, the animation for it should have a few fish float near by for a second as an Easter egg

[naive frigate]

they are basicly a sealclubbing unit, if you are ahead and your enemy cant afford expensive t2 units the banisher gets infinite value, but if you are up against an opponent that can make starlights wich are just as expensive the banisher becomes useless

[deft rampart]

tiger repair does the same job faster

[narrow thistle]

Banisher is like Janus in t2 it can compose a raiding army

Starlights are a positional unit

Most 8 v 8 map have big chokes and on chokes ofc positional units own, but banisher is way better than starlight on open field

[desert raft]

Banisher isnt too much like t2 janus

yes they have big burst dammage
but they also have range

[naive frigate]

eh imean even if it was, t1 doesnt have long range hit scan units wich is why the janus is so good but in t2 thats not all that helpfull

ive tried banisher on maps like ice scream and it didnt feel all that helpfull

its rare that you get the opportunity to engage and immediatly disengage again when you are in t2, usually you go all in when you have units with shorter range

[slate pasture]

Banisher dps for metal is more like a t2 whistler than a t2 Janus. Janus is a stoopid betch. D:<

[scarlet flax]

Can banisters fire on your grunts/pawns and make them fly alive into enemy lines? Would be funny and a sight to behold.

[pseudo sphinx]

banisher does too much dmg so it usually kills the unit rather than make it fly 😝

[raven ether]

Silly launches are off the menu

[whole glade]

But this cap does open up the possibility of having enough impulse to effect things like tigers/bulls/marauders with banisher I think right?

[raven ether]

yes, because low level units won't be launched from high level unit levels of impulse. 🙂

[naive frigate]

now that might make it usefull, the banisher would essentially be a t2 pounder that slows down entire tank balls

[slate pasture]

It would be very strong, lol. Probably not needed vs most t2. Would prolly be most relevant vs Marauders, if even possible to budge them.

Or vs Razers

[whole glade]

I do think it would be strong but I don't think the aoe is big enough to slow down large tank balls ala janus/pounder unless it is also buffed.

But I wouldn't want to lose any single target damage for aoe personally as I do like having banishers as something of a mobile dragon/liche deterrent (though admittedly not amazing for it, it has saved my butt more than once)

[naive frigate]

slowing down 3 tanks in the front allready slows the entire ball

if they were split up it wouldnt do much tho

[arctic thunder]

Banishers hardcounter hounds and sheldons, they're skirmishing kings, if you use them as a backline dps unit they suck

[deft rampart]

banisher are like heavy skirmishers

they beat regular skirmishers and even possibly heavy tanks if supported

but they are a big commitment / require significant support unlike hounds

[naive frigate]

but there are so many things that counter hounds that are way cheaper and other units in the same price range counter the banisher

[cosmic remnant]

Fast banishers on glitters front are very spicy. Need to be careful with that unit it can be super strong

[slate pasture]

Wut about a missile-speed buff? Just watched a t2 fighter outrun several banisher missiles by a fair margin. xD

May help the overkill issue, too.

[cosmic remnant]

Yeah good idea. Although its cool watching them fly, knowing something will die in a sec

[slate pasture]

Yeh. Dunno if it would mess up the sound tempo. Banisher one of best sounding units, sfx-wise

[rigid star]

Not sure if its already there but the banisher could serve a purpose like the pounder,knocking back other units

[slate pasture]

It could be cool, but I'd be afraid it would make it op vs tanks. Tanks are supposed to soft counter banishers if they get in range, but it would be really really hard for them to get into range.

[gaunt trench]

I think it would be nice to have more 2 stage missiles, think the missile cruiser. Then the banishers could fire a slower moving, much better tracking rocket that can pick up new targets if they die. Which then breaks up/fires the fast banishers rocket we know and love, but further increased travel speed.

[raven ether]

Most t3 currently have mass of 200000, basically making them in transportable and immovable. It's on my to-do list to standardize Mass. Pending decision on how to do it.

After standardization, the largest t3 won't budge from a banisher rocket but the smaller t3 might stutter a little.

[floral pebble]

I think its totaly fine for banisher to slap down medium tanks since hard counters to those are not that plentiful

[arctic thunder]

Shouldn't mass be the same as metal cost? Unless some units have a lot of plastic components, the two should be directly related.

[raven ether]

That is the default. And it's one of the options being considered. My position is that it should be based on the visual appearance of the unit. Consider this picture

[arctic thunder]

I guess it's possible the manufacturing efficiency is different for different units.

[raven ether]

Consider how much less expensive the construction vehicles are than any of the t2 stuff. Especially the decoys.

This is a Banisher thread though. I won't sully it anymore with my autistic Mass screechings

[naive frigate]

the first thing banisher needs is to get its ground 2 ground and air missile replaced by 2 weapons 1 for ground and one for air, just like the whistler so the cooldown of ground attacks doesnt prevent air attacks but allso so the AA missile can be faster and actually look like all the other AA missiles

the banisher is useless as anti air, you loose them to t1 bombers in the blink of an eye

[arctic thunder]

Which air units is the banisher actually good at? I think someone said dragons and nuke bombers before, but in practice, you'd never choose banishers as AA cover over flakkers. It seems like Banishers' AA abilities are nice to have, but if they're paying an AA tax, it would be much better to remove AA targetting, and make them decent against ground targets.

[floral pebble]

I recently had a situation where my banishers went against abductors and they did terribly even tho they make ideal targets

they missed alot of shots and got owned basically

if the aa attack had some more splash at least...

[naive frigate]

in theory dragons are the ideal target for banishers: Slow, lots of health, hard to miss
however i doubt that a banisher wich costs 1K M and 20K E will trade better with them as regular AA, Banishers die so quickly and dragons can deal a lot of damage

i think the only thing banishers are good at when it comes to air, is shooting t1 transports carrying commanders

[slate pasture]

Just a little reduced e-cost. You know you want to.

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-curse-gif-6401971144449120087

[naive frigate]

yeah banishers should be a: "throw metal at a leak to make it go away unit" because it trades well with early skirmishing units

the E cost prevents it from being that because you cant make it quick enough as a reaction to an attack

making a banisher pre emptively is only usefull when you are ahead, because if your enemy has the same capabilities as you then every banisher could have been a starlight wich wins in a direct trade

if youre up against a weaker oponent you can bully him with the banisher, but when youre ahead anything can bully really