Janus nerf when?

[stone birch]

that's a guess, I'm unsure what the logic was
nano spam is just a quick drop of a building in order to tank the janus missile that was heading for the com

[keen sorrel]

Ahh, buff the unit to better enable it to counter the APM defense to it while not giving CORE or Legion a similar unit assassin...

[stone birch]

as I said, that's a guess, it might be completely unrelated. I didn't make the unit.

I agree they're OP, especially in lower OS lobbies, but some unit effectiveness sway is inevitable in BAR. Janus IMO is too much so, but I also don't want to nerf too much at once, especially in a T1 unit interaction as those are foundational to the rest of the game

ideally I need to get some OP 1v1 players to test the pack and see what they make of it, both the level that nanoblock and the more mortal players

[keen sorrel]

I agree, using a mallet to balance the game is never a good idea and most ideas do not understand the multiplicative nature of changes. I do not think the range reduction will work properly, does not fix the fundamental problem multi role nature of the Janus... Honestly, is the Janus supposed to be an assassin unit(unique) or a crowd control unit like the Pounder? Being both is too much and that is the role it is in right now. I like the idea of leaving it as an assassin and just reducing the AOE splash damage itself to a very small amount. I will do some noob testing of the Janus with my son and let you know my impressions of the changes, I am not hopeful.

[sweet island]

assassin role should be mavericks (gunslinger), but they are weird trashy units which are supposed to be an antispam but in reality is just expensive useless garbage.

i think slight nerf to turn rate and/or speed/acceleration for janus can take place. like very small 5% change, making kiting with them little harder.
they are currently have a bit too good stats for T1 unit - i mean armor and speed (they are not squishy and slow like arty)

[stone birch]

again, both units handled in balance pack. janus range reduction makes them a little more committal, gunslingers have a good window of use

[sweet island]

i like most of your changes, but the issue with balance pack is its size. it changes too much things at once and people dont want to change the game drastically in one moment.

thats why it is lack testing in real games and will take ages to merge to the game unfortunately

[stone birch]

it's been modularly built up for months, with each stage having a lot of testing in isolation

conversely it's actually an advantage to fix most things at once, as it could in theory coincide with something of a 'season'

constant trickle changes are also an issue in their own way

mostly the pack does light touches tbh, but collectively it does add up I know

[sweet island]

yes but its easier to follow the changes and look at one thing at a time, and base game changes are usually pretty small and still affect a lot

[stone birch]

one holistic relearning phase is probably better to do than many of them over time though

it's also flawed to hold 'well it's all broken atm, but lets not fix it all at once' against the ready made solution to a lot of the game jank

I realise lobsters are very set in their ways ... but similarly that is the lobby that is apparently dead anyway

note that rotatos who've ended up in lobbies with it, mostly seem to like the changes

[zenith python]

I have 0 clue of why Janus is being nerfed, arm veh sees almost no play in 1v1s, Janus is a good unit but current 8v8 meta is heavily rocketbot favoured which counters Janus too hard, claw+wall counters Janus too hard due to wall absorbing all the shots, blueprint spam baits alot of Janus shots and gives you alot of time to deal with them. In past Janus was a huge issue because of its pairing with whistlers which in present are nerfed and their viability against thugs which in present are replaced by rocket bots.

Janus is a good unit but in no way does it need any Nerf in current state.

The problem u might face as botlab vs veh lab is that you might counter the early Janus with rockos but medium tank+Janus will run over some other lane when u might tech switch because it's hard to push as rocketbots into medium tank+Janus, which is mainly because the botlab counterpart for pushing i.e plasma bots are just too trash to use

[idle mountain]

lmao

I don't think it needs nerf it's just funny

[zenith python]

Ye times change alot of buffs n nerfs change the units indirectly

[stone birch]

claws are OP, rocketbots probably a little so

janus is still very oppressive in lower strata lobbies, though, to a game ruining degree sometimes

[zenith python]

I've had countless bismuth games ruined by bombers, countless games ruined by transports,shurikens,sneaky pete,orca,marauder,salamander etc. doesn't mean they all need a nerf so drastic that they become unusable

Shurikens and sneakypete need to be nerfed tho

[stone birch]

all units are still fully usable, although highest level play is somewhat different, and I very much welcome feedback there from people who've tried the pack for a while, and tried to work with changes rather than headbutt against them

I'm not blasting every unit anyone ever once said 'op' at, it's a systemic pattern and the changes are meant to be differential, ideally affecting higher strata less when the given units aren't an issue there

[keen sorrel]

It is not reading right in the tool tips. Tested it. Grunt spam slaughters it. Otherwise it was slaughtering everything t1 except air. Maybe removing the ability to shoot over each other. The other option is to buff Pounder to 350 range and sight increase to 335, compensates for its lack of speed. I dunno. Grunts and prolly pawns out pace it and take advantage of the reload period. Maybe try increase the BP requirement on Janus... Kind of like how the Whistlers were/are. The tracking makes it more complicated, try 33% increase to 48 seconds compared to current 36 @ 100 BP. Do not do both debuffs, but buffing the Pounder is a need due to speed issues.

[keen sorrel]

One of the testing sessions, son got bored and I was in pain, so it ended without being complete.

[sweet island]

@chrome wedge i tried your advice of llt wall against januses and it was absolutely worthless and waste of matel and comm-time

https://bar-rts.com/replays/21cb47661fc2d9eeea4f45d91dd13768this was in our first game in tartar - Teaner just made 3 januses and wreck all i have and i cant even reach them.
Also i was microing something in my base and delayed for 1 second on comm alert - which result in lost lane.

i hate this comm oneshots from 3 T1 units. honestly

[crimson path]

Aparently it deals default dmg to coms- should add 25% com dmg reduction

Units with high single target burst tend to deal 1/3 dmg to coms so ye

[sweet island]

im not a huge fan of special damages, though comm could be an exception i guess

[dim orbit]

I feel like I recognize that discussion from somewhere

[crimson path]

Is there something im not understanding?

[severe atlas]

Dunno if rocket bots are OP, but they made having Armada T1 botlab very viable now

you sure that Armada T1 vehs simply disappeared @zenith python ?

I mean I can tell from watching Baron and LDM's youtube channels that they use them a lot less, but dunno if it's a general trend

[zenith python]

No, medium tank Janus still good combo

[obsidian wraith]

Maybe just nerf Janus reload time a bit, so there is more time for counterplay?

Or maybe just increase energy cost and/or build time so they can't stack as fast?

Or maybe remove the obnoxiously powerful knockback so units can actually chase them?

Literally watched a rocket bot do a cartwheel from a Janus shot the other day, lol. It flipped around and janked back to its feet.

On occasion Janus will punt units like 800distance. Really obnoxious.

Janus even stops a tiger/bull with its knockback. Gross.

[grave crater]

Cant say i dont agree. Ive been using them to great effect

[mortal brook]

This is pretty much in Hornet's Balance pack, though a few different janus nerfs were cycled in and out as janus balance is hotly debated. idk why they're super good.

[chrome wedge]

janus aren't super good
the game received patch that changed the t1 meta

[crimson path]

Well just range 380 -) 370 combined with 25% dmg reduction to coms would be fine, combined with buffs on weaker t1 vehicles should work for balancing

[chrome wedge]

janus shouldn't have issue killing rockets bots role playing arties anyways
im not sure about the issue

[obsidian wraith]

Idk, just feels like as cor veh the only option I have vs Janus is mass lashers, which takes forever to actually kill anything and is super susceptible to early t2. Else if I get lucky enough to find them significantly far from com or porc, a perfect engagement baiting them with rascals + brutes. Wolverines can work IF opponent is sleeping and eats all the plasma, but meh; same issue as with lashers (takes too long to do enough damage before getting shat on by t2 or a static arty)

It's also annoying when Janus cheats and shoots 1 rocket at a time at my grunts.

[final urchin]

Except they are

[stone birch]

better question is 'why do highest level feel it isn't powerful' / 'why do other strata find it too potent'

tug of war between 'it's fine' / it's fucked' doesn't gain insights

[obsidian wraith]

Short answer seems to be "rocket bots"

[stone birch]

rocket bots over microable out of design scope is a large part I suspect

arcfire rocket bots exposed two problems, one being, janus not zonable by them
other is thugs were too weak to med tanks - that one is a little less clear cut

afk thugs -should- lose to med tanks, but maybe not quite as strongly

[high oyster]

I would like rocketbots to be less of an everything unit, myself. The one fight night game I watched, I quit because it was so boring.

[stone birch]

did you see arcfire rocket bots?

[high oyster]

Nah, it seems like test games only happen when I’m not around.

[stone birch]

oof, well, we can always run more. a combo test of thug HP buff, rezbot nerf, and janus nerf, would be a good next step probably

that for me is stuck at the 'which janus nerf' part of the problem, as they're a fundamentally weird unit design to balance

[high oyster]

My opinion on Janus hasn’t changed, which is that they’re the most interesting T1 unit, discounting Legion.

So a mechanical nerf of it would harm T1 as a whole.

(As opposed to a cost nerf, for example)

[stone birch]

com damage nerf is needed at the minumum, you cannot have an 'anti com' unit at T1 to 1 faction only

[high oyster]

Oh, I guess I did watch two fight night games. The first one ended in a failed commdrop. Also lame.

[high oyster]

That I agree with. But I have no political following to get Cortex an anti-comm unit as well.

[stone birch]

it shouldn't have an anti com, otherwise then you have 'arm veh' vs 'whatever core has the anti com' choice on frontlines

removes variety rather than adding it

[high oyster]

||maybe the commander is overpowered||

[crimson path]

Thugs are fine vs med tanks imo, any adverse terrain makes bots more viable, tho I do feel stouts are a bit too strong, should nerf to be balanced to brute ex. slight DPS nerf

[stone birch]

as I say it's less clear cut there, bots shouldn't be brawling indefinitely vs veh, they have other advantages

partly that was an expectation issue, eg that bots should be equally viable options in all cases, which is false

some lanes really would be veh lanes for optimal trading

thugs less weak to pickoffs though, and rezbots having less bp, seems a good compromise so far, but as yet I've not had any of the classic offender maps run that test with highest OS brackets

[chrome wedge]

the reason BA was so good is because it tried as best as possible to have high skilled gameplay using the TA sandbox
it's literally in the name, obviously most high OS players aren't interested in playing Unbalanced annhilation remastered

[foggy niche]

It’s odd how strong Janus used to be when the commander was weaker
Janus being anti com isn’t new and has been new ever
The reason why Janus became relevant was due to the need of having high alpha damage units when the commander update dropped

Also shorter t1 phases made things harder for Janus to pay off

[high oyster]

yep

[foggy niche]

6 pawns used to kill a commander for context with no dguns

And that was before infrantry nerf of 10% less dps

[high oyster]

Yeah, I played back before BAR blew up. I didn't feel infantry spam was great gameplay either. There's gotta be a middle ground here somewhere.

[rain wind]

Infantry spam game play was peak 😛

[paper pebble]

infrantry spam gameplay so good

[nova timber]

This is a buff to thugs at a low level since people don’t repair units but if played properly, these changes counteract each other. Thug interactions should always be considered with rezbots in mind constantly healing/reviving.

A big part of bot vs veh balance is not individual unit v unit but also the fact that they have the rezbot

[stone birch]

not entirely, as it's a rezbot nerf overall, which affects their econ boost power at start, and obviously, rezzing & returning things

Pure thug wise, yes, it's more a thug buff at lower levels, and likely slight net thug buff upper as it lets thugs survive more shots to be pulled back and be repaired, even if that repair is slightly slower

[obsidian wraith]

why is janus so dumb

[obsidian wraith]

so, y only arm get the high alpha anti-com unit? ;c

and anti-everything-else-t1 ;c

[foggy niche]

It’s one of the most expensive t1 units followed by the fact it cannot solo anything outside of some bots

Why does core get the significantly more tanks med tank

[gritty marsh]

stouts are better

[foggy niche]

Why does core get the overall better infrantry bot

[crimson path]

Units shouldnt be better overall, they should just be different

[gritty marsh]

well most of the t1 units are very different, but naturally one will be better in most cases
in a 1v1 the stout would loose against the brute but brutes are more expensive wich makes them kinda worse

janus is very hard to compare to the pounder, the pounder is very OP in 1v1 and the janus is very OP in 8v8

the only reason the pounder so good in 1v1 is because the game remains at the early stages for much longer, if the 1v1 would last as long as an 8v8 then the Janus would allso be the superior choice for the majority of the match

[foggy niche]

Janus is map dependant in 1v1
Less so than the centurion

[left musk]

Should 1v1 balance be more important than 8v8 balance?

I like the idea of fixing 8v8 balance and then correcting 1v1 balance also

If janus is so rarely used in 1v1, balance tweaks to janus wont change 1v1

[paper pebble]

I’d rather have stouts in a 1v1 they’re faster

[fiery canopy]

janus is just really good against commanders and pounder is better against most other lower range t1 stuff

More commanders in 8v8 makes Janus valuable to have and pounders more likely to get dgunned

pounders good in 1v1 as they wreck medium tanks, if you’re against medium tanks in 8v8 pounder would be great too

[lusty prawn]

Don't touch my januses.

I agree they pack quite a punch, but they pay for it with their horrendous turn rate and speed.

rocketbots can easily kite them

[crimson path]

not easily, just give janus small nerfs idk

[lusty prawn]

if you are paying full attention rockos can kite quite easily. If you look away for a few seconds while leaving them exposed, you will lose a lot of them.

[tall raven]

rockos vs janus is a pure apm thing i think

lashers also murder them if they never get touched

[zenith python]

as OP of thread can confirm janus doesnt need nerf anymore

[lusty prawn]

What changed?

[zenith python]

whistler nerf, centurion buff, rocketbots being meta unit

also got gut and found the other 10 ways of countering janus

[lusty prawn]

Oh this is a year old post lol

I thought it was 2-3 months old

[river walrus]

massive necro post

[chrome wedge]

They call him Dolpheyyy

[obsidian wraith]

Anyone have a replay of cor veh smashing high tier Janus user ?

[devout nacelle]

Any 1v1 where someone accidentally plays arm veh

[crimson path]

sure incisors are good on comet catcher, any other examples?

[foggy niche]

Janus isn’t as common in 1v1 as its core dominant in general

If Janus was rare with common picks for arm, then your logic has some stance.

[zenith python]

Incisor beats anything except incisors

Anyways u can game Janus users by moving 10 ticks next to their commander when they push out of their llt line and they game-end themselves

[obsidian wraith]

So, Janus busted in 8v8, but that's okay because no one plays arm 1v1, and no one can show me an example of a high tier Janus user getting spanked by cor veh ?

[gritty marsh]

the thing is, cor vehicle is only good for incisor and wolverine, but even wolverine is more of a trade off because shellshockers are so much more cheaper

pounder sees usage in 1v1 but even there its situational

on the other hand, cor bots has grunt thug and aggravator wich are all just better too so both factions have a lab wich is just better when youre playing 8v8

[devout nacelle]

Janus is strong skirmisher, good vs commander, it would have to be dogshit tier to not be strong in 8v8 porced flat maps

[zenith python]

how is janus busted in 8v8 if i dont use it

[obsidian wraith]

When your newb on the other side of the map dies in 4 minutes

[lusty prawn]

that's just a skill diff. Anything at all can kill newbs

[obsidian wraith]

Nah, Janus is pretty unique in t1 for its com assassination potential. And exploding your army potential.

[crisp vapor]

Why is janus so OP?

Cant they be easily countered with gators and blitzes?

Since their Rel time is long ?

[crimson path]

In theory maybe, com assasination ability is excessive

[gritty marsh]

ones there are multiple janus backed up by stouts they become oppressive
any t1 vehicle push will stop dead in its tracks after multiple rocket hits causing impulse on your units after that they just get stuck in place for a while and the enemy stouts get free hits on you while they can still micro to dodge

the impulse is really tough on the vehicle moveset and bots usually outright die or get catapulted out of bounds

[chrome wedge]

i would say it's equally "easy" to do a janus rush and kill a com than stopping a janus rush and not die and then be ahead
just gotta learn how to do it, then you bing chilling

[zenith python]

u can literally put an ai with only objective being make mexes and t1 walls and it would survive for 10minutes idk how human beings cant

[tall raven]

they feed units 1by1 and dont build turrets

wallers for sure stay alive longer tho xD

[left musk]

maybe its just my playstyle, but whenever I go arm veh janus i have a w/r of 65% versus my normal w/r which is probably <50%

according to barstats before I started experimenting with arm bots builds

The janus beats most pork or at worst comes out even, it either steamrolls or is at a good parity.

[lusty prawn]

janus is fast to repair and doesn't leave wrecks, so the hit and run is even stronger as enemy can't get any metal back

januses snowball quite easily

[devout nacelle]

Do people set Janus' on hold fire and micro, rather like a t1 tsar? I haven't tried that yet, they tend to waste shots when on fire at will.

[gritty marsh]

you might not even need to do that, janus encourages skirmishing gameplay, you keep them behind your other units, stouts for example, and get them into range when an actual attack happens and then you immediatly retreat with them again keeping your stouts infront

hold fire would be superior but this is how i usually see janus used

i wouldnt even necessarily call this type of gameplay OP, its just that its straight up better then cortex vehicles if both of them fight in a chokepoint

[lusty prawn]

Hold fire is useful only when you want to com snipe or there's stuff like ticks or rovers

otherwise it's perfectly fine to let them fire at will, though sometimes they overkill

[tall raven]

2janus2stout1whistler is THE glitters quene xD

gets a little repetetive to drive those janus in circles

[cedar hazel]

Multiply pounder knock back by ten

[narrow whale]

Janus has a 41 sight range and 65 attack range and 13 speed advantage over the Pounder. Pounder is a little cheaper and has a good chunk more health, but that health advantage is irrelevant if it gets dgunned because it has to get so much closer. That's the biggest difference, Pounders fear commanders, commanders fear Janus. In the bot labs, both Centurions and Thugs are pretty dangerous for commanders as they both have more range and speed, but not so much alpha damage.

[gritty marsh]

pounder could use a buff that makes them better in 8v8 but not in 1v1

something that makes them better against medium tanks

[narrow whale]

If you gave Pounders the same range as Janus, I think they'd be considered OP and pretty oppressive.

[gritty marsh]

well yeah i know that pounders can be OP in very specific situations allready, but those situations are like the first 3 minutes of an 8v8 and i guess the first 10 minutes of a 1v1

and in most cases an early pounder in an 8v8 will get d gunned

[narrow whale]

Yeah, Arm Vehicles, Arm Bots, Core Bots, all have a way to keep commanders back, Core Vehicles not so much.

It's the biggest weakness of the lab

[gritty marsh]

i like to start 3 incisor 1 pounder, but the pounder mostly stays in the back to kill leaks

if i push too much the incisors cant protect pounder from com

[narrow whale]

Pounder is great at wrecking Grunts/Pawns

and flash tanks

[gritty marsh]

other light tanks are usually scared shitless of this composition

might just be them not knowing how to play but they get knocked back ones and disengage

[foggy niche]

Pounders excell at stoping a tank for a moment. Any t1 tank at that.

[devout nacelle]

Do people use pounders in 1vs1? I'd expect them to be even more useless, due to their low speed.

[gritty marsh]

yes of course, the majority of units used on 1v1s are grunts and pounders anihalate them

you could rush 1 pounder and kill 30 grunts propably

[fiery canopy]

medium tanks are really common in 1v1, pounders wreck medium tanks, so it makes sense that pounders are good

[tall raven]

pounders become really good later on in 8v8 because they are the best anti spam unit in the game

a line of pounders will push back any amount of scout/grunt/pawn spam the enemy can make

[devout nacelle]

Did Janus missile tracking get nerfed? It used to be, once you fired it at a commander, it was going to hit, even if it ended up covering a longer range than the standard range.

[tight reef]

honestly most of the time you prefer 20-40 grunts

cause they are faster, can be retreated vs t2 fire

pounders are a good escort if they are exactly where you want them tho

[grave crater]

Not on glitters tho. U straits players cant even comprehend how much spam there is on glitters. 20-40 grunts of spam knocking on your lane every 5 seconds

[tall raven]

Haha yeah 40 grunts is more of a scouting amount xD

[crisp vapor]

Yeah pounder are good

I think they can win 1v2 against med tanks

[potent moon]

Tracking depends on the unit providing it. If you follow the Comm with the unit, the homing persists, if you leave the range between the weapon and the target, the homing stops. It also works that way for the Banisher.

On the topic, I think Janus should be more vulnerable to balance its massive burst damage. Alternatively, like has been suggested, you can give Cortex something to counter, like something with higher range and durable, but inaccurate and slow-firing. Maybe something like a Siege Tank, that can only fire once it is deployed into stationary mode.

[obsidian wraith]

Pounder loses 1v1 against a Brute. (But do heavy dmg against groups of brutes)

[crimson path]

I dont get this hype for pounders, like sure they do DMG if a unit gets near it but otherwise it does not. Its 40 speed and low range makes it hard for it to get in contact with stuff before dying. Which is why it works in canyon glitters but not rly in open terrain. The reason its not buffed is cause the high power, so why not reduce DMG power so u can give it more reliable utility by speed and range buff. Even 50 speed keeps it slower than janus (54). But ye Brutes are percieved as worse than stout so that contributes to the cor veh lab not being built for 8v8 e.t.c.

[high oyster]

There are plenty of maps that pounders are good on. Just understand that they're not a monocomp unit.

[tall raven]

arm certianly has nothing that can stop med tanks from diving you that well

[gritty marsh]

i would take janus over pounder

they stop tank balls aswell

even better i would say because pounders need to take damage to knock them back while janus can shoot and retreat

[high oyster]

Janus is an assassin, Pounder is a guard.

[tight reef]

pounders want single chokes. they also benefit a lot from manual ground fire for extra range

yeah their speed sucks but strong dmg per cost, really high aoe with high edge effectiveness

[foggy niche]

Pounders can handle those scenarios solo. They don’t need a friend
A Janus requires something there to make sure it can live

[gritty marsh]

pounders die to commanders

you cant retreat them in time when they get into your vision

so they definetly need support for vision

and if the enemy gets around your pounders somehow you are screwed

because unlike other units, the pounder is worhtless to push into static and standing armies
its a defencive unit, so if the enemy rushes your base you cant even retaliate all you do is feed with a pounder push

[zenith python]

u guys shud try 2 janus 3 centurion opening its pretty good

[foggy niche]

That sounds op

[grave crater]

And which lab is the first? Bot?

[zenith python]

I do veh first for rovers and better expand but it depends on whether map has reclaim or not.

[grave crater]

U prefer rovers vs ticks for scouting @zenith python ?

[obsidian wraith]

Rovers have highest offensive priority at start of game, since nothing on land can catch them.

[zenith python]

Ye rovers best early scout unit
Later on ticks r better generalist unit

[potent moon]

Pounders are very good against Bot fronts. Just save some and ride right into it. Watch the poor dudes try to run.

[obsidian wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/bh187-austin-powers-noo-move-get-out-of-the-way-gif-19284848

[obsidian wraith]

Remove the guidance so Janus actually shoots rockets, as per the naming description? >_>"

[lusty prawn]

If that's removed, januses get absolutely countered by rockos

[obsidian wraith]

So what? Not like Cor has anything to counter rockos that Arm doesnt have

[lusty prawn]

wdym so what

what's good about making a unit that's already strong completely noncounterable

Currently januses vs rockos are apm battles with januses requiring more micro skills

[devout nacelle]

Rocketbots already counter janus

[lusty prawn]

yes, mostly but januses have a chance because the rockets can track outside of their range

remove that and januses are useless without a range buff

[obsidian wraith]

I mean, Cor veh doesn't have anything like Janus to counter rockos, so why should Janus counter rockos at all? Pounder gets merced by rockos, so no sympathy from me if Janus gets merced by rockos.

[lusty prawn]

wolverines do well when mixed with porc

shellshockers can't do that

[obsidian wraith]

Only against afk enemy. A little micro and wolverines doing nigh 0 dmg to army. By the time you get enough wolverines to saturate an area well enough for rockos to not dodge, its about the end of t1 phase and/or they just put up a static arty 'cause you dont have any beefy boiz to push it down. ;/

[potent moon]

If only Pounders weren't so slow... or missile trucks so puny.

[tight reef]

pounders have more use into the t2 phase as escorts vs anti-spam and medium tank bum rush
but janus are generally better early

pounders can actually kite coms with very good micro and manually targeting ground

their aoe and edge effectiveness is impressive

[potent moon]

Yeah, but Januses do it even better, and the difference in effectiveness and flexibility doesn't correlate to the difference in cost. For anti-spam measures, you'd typically want to step up to Salamanders, who won't even slow down the formation either.

Pounders as they are a somewhat akin to Gunslingers - they just have enough stats to not be entirely useless and just less of them to have a clear purpose. As such, they're mainly good at stopping Bot assaults, and that is given they're not being actively out-microed by rocketbots.

[tall raven]

salas are worse vs spam I think

[grave crater]

Best pounder use is spamming them from 1-4 labs when you push with t3 or hold the front vs heavy push with spam

Lategame

[tight reef]

salamanders good but expensive, if all you want to do is kill spam i'd use grunts instead
more stopping power and arguably more versatile (doesn't get sniped by banisher/starlight)

[gritty marsh]

d guns are the pounders biggest fear, 1 com could probably kill 4 of them

without them driving towards the com

[potent moon]

Their range isn't THAT bad, but yeah, they're sluggish as all hell and not really durable to good measure.

[left musk]

maybe they need to have increased range, but only against commanders?

[crimson path]

sure good idea, idk why not focus trying buff range vs all units tho

[abstract wolf]

The homing is actually a nerf

[abstract wolf]

I'd say pounder needs brute range

[left musk]

give pounder a beamer like lazer that only shoots com and does centurion like dps

[tight reef]

ah, the fuck you beam

[left musk]

or let the pounder impulse actually do some kinda ministun to the com, not the full effect but just enough so you can actually kite com with pounder

[zenith python]

lmao commander is literally the only unit good against pounder early

pounder alrdy giga broken unit u cud get 50os spamming it

[crimson path]

Pounder should not counter coms

[lilac plume]

As far as I'm aware there's no other T1 unit in the game that gets any sort of tracking for their weapons, and I don't see why the Janus should be the sole exception to that rule, especially since it's weapon does so much damage in the first place.

For reference a commander has 3,700hp, 3 Januses only need to shoot 2 volleys to deal 3.960 damage and kill a commander in 8 seconds.

[lusty prawn]

If januses didn't have tracking rocket bots would be even more oppressive

The fact that janus shots can track outside of their range means the rocko user needs to be careful, but if they didn't track they wouldn't have a chance of hitting the rockos at all and vehs would have no "counter" to rockos (januses still don't counter rockos but at least give you a chance)

Without tracking januses wouldn't even kill commanders because they just barely outrange dgun range, so if they wanted to hit the com they would need to come closer to make sure the com can't escape

[devout nacelle]

Nerf rocket bots then. The correct response to an OP unit is not to make another unit OP, it's to nerf that unit.

[abstract wolf]

Don't forget flankin

[lusty prawn]

janus isn't op

[zenith python]

Every t1 unit is op until u unlock porc

5 nano 3 beamer jammer gaming

[pearl minnow]

This gargantuan sized thread is too large for me to summarize in this lifetime. I'll do from this post #1137862899319193690 message onward.

Gentlemen, remember to react to the posts you think stand out and try to keep your posts concise and to the point. I'll summarize this the 22nd of this month.
DJIoejdsnfoosnrhfuxidnbdhxhsbdbf

[crimson path]

Lower range 380 -) 370 and -25% dmg vs coms pls

[obsidian wraith]

Does this mean Cor t1 veh doesn't have a counter to rockos, since they don't have a Janus?

[lusty prawn]

Lashers or you can use wolverines which are much stronger than shellshockers

but yes, I wouldn't want to go against rockos with cor veh

[obsidian wraith]

Arm has Whistlers, which have a little bit more dps than Lashers (but slightly less range).

Also Wolverines ain't hitting any rockos that move, until you get like 5+ of them. Even worse than trying to hit a rocko with an unguided Janus shot. ;/

[lusty prawn]

well then nerf both rockos and janus

but nerfing just janus and leaving rockos as they are is stupid

even now rockos have an advantage over janus if both are microed well

[grave crater]

I feel wolverines are good counter, as its pain microing rockos on 200% all the time while macroing

In theory they maybe not work but in practice they work wonders and get kills

[tall raven]

everything gets dunked on by med tanks as soon as you open up the map slightly, no nerfs needed

all the cute rocket bot and janus micro only works if you have porc and commanders to back into

[zenith python]

I don't think u need to summarise this one, I am the OP and this was during veh meta and there were infinite changes to t1 arty, Whistlers, rocketbots, centurions,plasma bots and pawns after this which has mostly fixed all of the t1 issues

It's way too old of a thread to be summarised

Especially when most of the issues already has been addressed

[obsidian wraith]

Make it so the commander can d-gun the rockets? xD

[paper pebble]

agreed janus doesn't need a nerf

[cedar hazel]

That would be hilarious

[pearl minnow]

care to summarize the changes that fixed it?

[paper pebble]

meaningful changes since august last year that have impacted janus? off the top of my head

• whistler nerf (janus + whistler ball used to be very opressive)
• thug and mace buff (I think several buffs for maces over that time)
• cor t1 artillery buff
• centurion buff
• rocket bot buff

i think maybe the targeting on janus shot got a tweak in that time too, idk

[foggy niche]

You forgot Janus hitbox nerf

The turret was not a hitbox
It is now a hitbox

[devout nacelle]

ChatGPT is your friend

[pearl minnow]

I wouldn't do that to you, boo. ;P
You fellas deserve my real eyeballs.

[abstract wolf]

Boo