#EMP thread

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

tame blade
#

EMP bomber:
230m 19000e unit that can block entire armies of t2 and t3 in a second and tank 5-7 static flak shots(it costs 850m and it is static) (literally turn around above the flak and survive) - completely balanced unit.

Shurikens: T1 unit that can hold everything up to T3 units

Spybots: 130m unit that can hold everything for 30 (!) seconds in wide area.

high mango
#

Spy EMP of 56,000 is crazy

lilac jewel
#

It is on suicide

#

Can be high, just shouldnt be 30s stun. Like, 10.

tame blade
#

i think stilletto being the most broken of these three:

  1. its arm only
  2. no counter beside fighter swarm which cannot fly around the enemy bases with AA
tame blade
willow topaz
#

Thanks for the info

lilac jewel
#

lol, Shurikens are most OP by far. Its a T1, its extremely cheap. You can be online 5 minutes earlier. 10 if enemy air is any good and you cant just fastest possible T2 as arm to get any useful units

high mango
tame blade
#

shurikens are one of the few reasons to play core

lilac jewel
#

ye, because its extremely op

willow topaz
#

So whats the suggestion?

high mango
#

20,000 EMP damage from a stilletto, if all 5 bombs hit perfectly

lilac jewel
#

I mean, you aint hitting 1 unit with that. Its good, but past first few tries, its a one way trip almost every time

tame blade
#

i'd suggest rise EMP resistance on most T2 units, especially slow ones and porc

lilac jewel
#

Mobile spybot that has cc durration of pretty much what spybot should have

willow topaz
#

maybe wana put that in your first post

tame blade
#

playing core vehs is a pure pain due to emps, because you have big fat units

willow topaz
#

emp is op for everything not just core vehicles

#

only unit that i've seen resist them is all terrain spider bots

tame blade
#

stunning T1 shit is ok, but when 130m spy or 230m bobmer stuns 5000k metal in porc or sumo/mammoths for 30 second its frustrating

#

and usually if you're doing big fat units you cant afford T1 spam to counter spies

lilac jewel
#

As I said. Not 30s, needs to be 10.

tame blade
#

and T2 aa especially mobile, cant counter stilettos

lilac jewel
#

Because 30 is way overblown, probably to be able to stun antinuke, but, yeah

tame blade
#

make spy a spy, not cloakable stealth emp bomb

#

check Core T2 nuke crawling bomb, it costs like 5x spies, and no slealth
and cant kill anything

lilac jewel
#

Give it attack. But activating the attack which is single target will put it on uncancelable 30s self D timer

#

Self D which is separate and does no aditional EMP

#

Or 20s and 10s emp explosion

#

Then it can stun 1 thing for 30s, or explode for 10

tame blade
#

compare T2 crawling nuke bomb to Spy:
540m 26000e
2x lower aoe, barely can kill T2 units EVEN if you manage to get in without stealth which is nearly impossible

Spectre:
165m 12500e
stelathy/cloaked - easy to get it and stun everything for 30s including T3

lilac jewel
#

I would rather 2 spies in my base then a crawling bomb

tame blade
#

what would you prefer? and when did you see skuttlese in pro lobby last time?

lilac jewel
#

It can kill a fusion. Spybot cant

#

Umm, yesterday lol

willow topaz
#

There is emp resistance modifiers on some of the units, the all terrain spider bots high a higher resistance. So tweaking units to be more resisitant to emp is doable by the looks of it.

tame blade
#

lmao, i just checked arm spy:
135m 8800e !
almost 50% cheaper than core one

lilac jewel
#

Bad day to ask that question

tame blade
#

more imba for arms

#

fk it, i have to play arms to rise my os i guess, not core_vehs.lua

pine adder
#

For the record Niku made this post after seeing me get EMPed to death, imo that's fine because I got outplayed. I agree it is more problematic for core veh, though.

willow topaz
#

Why is it more problematic for core vehicles

tame blade
tame blade
willow topaz
#

okay, but that is the same for any unit type / tech type

tame blade
#

and you cant counter emp bombers, and barely can counter spies (you need countermeasure and T1 factory spam units) which you can't afford

#

and countermeasure also works only for defense, you don't have mobile one

tame blade
#

PRO skills are always assumes how much EMP player used

willow topaz
#

Emp is kinda busted yeah

high mango
#

Cor vechs lack any cheap units, except for the fragile arty.
Arm vechs have jaguar and the consul to make a pawn screen

willow topaz
#

but what do you suggest

mighty flame
#

EMP is just a generally not very fun mechanic to play with, and generally overused by design in this game. But that's my opinion in general. Specifically, spybots need either nerf or redesign to have their EMP removed. They're currently undermade in the meta, I think because most players don't really understand them yet or just haven't been hit by them the way a decent player can do.

tame blade
willow topaz
#

let the printer print grunts then

#

or rascals

#

and tune the emp modifiers

tame blade
#

i think tzars should be stunned by shittty 135m spy at all

high mango
north mural
#

Or have EMP’d units build resistance over time, so it’s harder and harder to perms stun?

tame blade
#

i think slow units have to have high emp resistance

north mural
#

I mean if you keep dropping emp on the same unit, it’ll eventually become immune (also temporarily)

tame blade
#

it's dumb that 1600 metal slow tzaar is getting emped by 2 shurikens in 2 seconds or by Spy for 30 seconds

north mural
#

So you emp and have to follow up

tame blade
#

btw I think spy could have spider weapon instead of death emp... Currently spies are just cloakable stealth EMP bombs, not "spies"

tame blade
high mango
#

Also, T1 amphibious tanks have EMP resistance, but not T2 amphibious tanks

high mango
willow topaz
#

Yup I think spybots being able to stun anti-nukes is cool, but to decide frontline engagements is not

high mango
#

I do like the idea to give the spybot a huge single-use abductor EMP beam to lock down a single-target for 30+ seconds on default attack, and a nerfed self-d AOE that only stuns for 10 seconds like a stiletto.

mighty flame
#

replace basic crawling bombs with EMP instead, remove it from spy bot completely, if you want to have front-line stunning bombs. Invisible, undetectable bombs that can disable an army worth easily 50x its own cost sounds OP even before I see it happening in a game.

tame blade
#

Core vs Arm spies:

Arm 42% less energy 22% less metal cost
Arm better breakrate (0.6 vs 0.69) makes them easier to use
Arm faster
Arm little more turn speed

Core have 80 more health! (which wont help if it get spotted anyway)

#

i like how it is "core more straightforward faction, have massive and powerful units" while arm is more "tricky" one.
may be make all core units immune to EMP then? 😄

#

seriously i'd consider add core units EMP resistance on all units, and more immunities. make them really big massive unit abusers, and not requie t1 spam to survive.

willow topaz
tame blade
#

ok, now waiting for PRO players, who will defend EMP as much as possible 😛

willow topaz
#

only thing worth pointing out is spybots affinity with anti nukes

tame blade
#

back in TAESC there were spies that could capture stuff and IIRC could place some mines. But not emp

#

it was fun to sneaky capture fusions in the enemy backline when they arent looking

#

in bar spies barely can go into enemy base, but 99% usage is emp crawling bombs

vague void
#

I truly believe spybot EMP duration is linked to nuke silo firing animation length.

The way anti-nukes work, the interceptor is launched the instant the nuke missile comes into existence. This means to successfully EMP an anti-nuke silo and get the nuke through, it has to be EMP'd for the entire duration of nuke launch animation + travel time.

tame blade
slender jetty
#

it's very important for the game to have some game mechanics where an overwhelmed player has a chance to turn the table when having some skill. EMP is one of those options, combomb is gone already. It's a bit boring when you remove/nerf everything from the game that involves some skill and just the player having more tanks wins

turbid pebble
#

You need small amount of AA bots mixed with your pushing army, they will still emp your stuff but if you spread good enough the emp bombers will die and you will still have enough army to defend your emped units, emp duration is pretty small on bombers, always expect bombers/drones to come defend. It's good gameplay mechanics.

inner sparrow
#

Someone suggesated big spy emp radius nerf and I think that's the best solution here without the need for major balance changes on all other units. The spy emp range is too big, using spies to stun anti would still be possible, but it won't stun whole armies. If you get it behind lines to stun a single high value unti for 30 secs I guess that's fair too.

#

And I have to disagree about Skuttle being useless, skuttle is op just under used because of very high micro required, which is fine as it can punish unit balls and bad base design.

#

Spy cost should be equalised imo, faction difference is nice but I don't think this is the best unit for that. Or at least make the non cost stats actually matter more then instead of irrelevant 80 hp and a slight break rate advantage. Make arm do less stun damage then or something...

#

Shuriken is very good but also very easy to counter, there are aa bots at t1 that deal with it well and many later raiding units have either emp resistance or some form of aa weapon that can defend against them.

#

EMP bomber is underused for how good it is at stopping raids.

turbid pebble
#

As a emp bot abuser i think the price/build time should be the same and to balance have emp duration reduced, im not sure why the duration is so long, it doesn't need to be, and it would help t3 units to not be deleted by 1 emp bot

tame blade
#

i also think arm bot should have more nerfs, currently its stupidly just 1.5x better than core... as almost all other shit in bar.

turbid pebble
tame blade
tame blade
#

that requires everyone to spam T1, to prevent being permastunned by spybots , this is the only counter

#

and also requires intrusion countermeasure which have limited range and not cheap

turbid pebble
#

If they totally change spy bots and not just adjust radius/duration it will change the balance for t2/t3 phase on so many aspects, it's not possible to do imo

inner sparrow
#

Please no

novel ginkgo
#

Spies currently stun units for 22s and buildings for 35s, but I can't find the file that causes this. This also seems to apply to the emp missile launcher building

tame blade
inner sparrow
#

Non stealthy, spy is more op, cheaper, easier to use, not visible on radar.

grim sapphire
# inner sparrow Spy cost should be equalised imo, faction difference is nice but I don't think t...

Most cor utility buildings and units, if not identical to arm's, are mildly worse at doing their role, an insignificant amount more durable, and some amount more expensive (even if usually not as extreme as spybot) despite the hp being worthless. Kinda hurts looking through buildlists and seeing everything in the t2 con utility filter as well as half the combat filter just be strictly worse cor vs arm. Even antinuke is slightly more expensive for cor iirc

#

I say t2 because at least t1 jammer is cheaper for cor...because it can't cloak

void widget
#

Skuttle deniers smh

mighty flame
polar coral
#

from the perspective of emp bomber user its very annoying to have t2 ground AA shoot it down. the 20k energy cost is very expensive to keep producing multiple stilettos if it's constantly getting killed

sick heron
#

I wouldn't touch spybots. They're one of the best ways to really show skill expression in t2, and the majority of players never or rarely use them. They're also more expensive than people think once you add in their cloak cost. EMP bombers have a stronger argument for nerfs, but even there I would not touch them at the moment.

lilac jewel
#

Cor antinuke is much bigger tho, bad example

grim sapphire
#

i'm talking about the structure

#

cor antinuke costs more and the only other difference is that cor's also has less sight range, like most cor structures

grim sapphire
#

As far as a nerf that might make ghosts less effective without completely preventing spybots from having chances to be used for skill expression in their current form, an incremental change could be to roughly halve some or all of the advantages ghosts have over spectres

#

I'm not particularly opposed to any of the nerfs or reworks proposed, but i also know i have a cor player's personal bias against the prevalence of extreme emp in mid-late game

thin mesa
#

Especially on straits and whatnot, the tactical flexibility it gives is incredible

winter meadow
#

Make engineers able to "heal" EMP

#

Or minesweepers

winter meadow
#

a crazy workaround would be to have the Cortex mobile antinuke create an antiEMP bubble. It's slow moving, so it couldn't follow fiends from an ally, but for Tzars ? yummy

grim sapphire
# winter meadow a crazy workaround would be to have the Cortex mobile antinuke create an antiEMP...

Cor vehicles being meme-tier is kinda common knowledge, and there's a massive thread linked near the start of this one dedicated to figuring out how to make them not rubbish. An emp-immunity bubble or even just an emp-resistance bubble on either the antinuke vehicle or on corprinter (currently being reworked anyway) could be neat, though i believe some of the core team has expressed reluctance to implement things along the lines of "buff/debuff bubbles". Regardless, we should definitely try to contain further discussion on specific buffs to cor vehs to that other thread

untold jacinth
#

big heavy tanks requiring 2 spy bots worth of EMP to stun seems fine to me

lilac jewel
#

Cor vehicles are in every game lately lol

untold jacinth
#

similar for core's ultra heavy kbot

lilac jewel
#

Meme tier

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

Tzars beat bulls metal for metal, especially more you have

untold jacinth
#

bulls are bad against other tanks due to their rather low hp for their massive cost

grim sapphire
#

Well, i tried to keep the cor vehs fighting out of this thread at least

lilac jewel
#

Tzars will beat anything bull would.
You just need to be more careful as they are slower.
Bull is more hit and run

#

Well, and they don't do massive ff once spam enters the field and you arent killing it at range, but that's just because they don't have enough aoe.

winter meadow
#

tzars are like fatboys, used to destroy swarms, they hold frontline quite well. If you used them to push, the friendly fire is so annoying.

#

bulls are used more to push

#

the issue with Cortex vehicles imo is that they don't have good units to push, the tiger is meh, and as a second line to penetrate defenses, the banisher is much weaker than a starlight

#

anyway back on to the EMP thing I guess pepehmm

#

clearly the tournament showed that if you don't have shurikens, you lose. At least in 3v3.

lilac jewel
#

Shurikens are op, ye.
Come early and super cheap

winter meadow
#

basically you just NEED a player with shurikens

#

tick play and shuriken play are now a staple of the game

tame blade
#

btw i think emp mines in minelayer would be great, with not too large aoe.

inner sparrow
#

Has huge range

inner sparrow
tame blade
#

to stun larger units?

inner sparrow
#

Heavy mines can just blow them up

tame blade
#

i have seen people making cloaked mex as an emp mine, though it costs a lot

inner sparrow
#

Yes because its available early game from any con, no need for veh minelayer

#

Doesnt die to juno and most important, extracts metal. EMP mine would do none of this things.

tame blade
#

i mean some people make it in field, not on mex

#

it has large emp aoe so it can pay off the 200m cost

inner sparrow
#

Not possible anymore

tame blade
#

yes, but if possible even 200m and long buildtime mine is useful

#

everything can be balanced by emp aoe, length and mine cost

fringe summit
#

For what it's worth I too think spybot emp duration should be shortened a bit. I appreciate that it is a high skill unit for pro microers but I also think it is too hard to counter. Especially when used for defense on some maps with tighter spaces I feel like you can hold a lane too easily against even early t3 units.

It's not as big an issue at the moment as it could be though. Maybe if spybot becomes "the meta" then it would lead to quite frustrating gameplay. I wouldn't want to see it used every match by everyone.

tame blade
#

I also suggest considering remove selfD emp from them at all, make them more spy-like used from scouting and LoS, not cloakable-stealth emp bombs.

#

give them mines or capture ability, so you can sneaky go into enemy base and kill /capture afuses or anties

#

that make fun gameplay , opens huge opportunities to PRO micro plays and fun to spectate situations.

sick heron
#

As far as EMP mines go, you'd probably use them in a hold fire role with a perimeter camera or some kind of vision, and only turn them on when you see units worth stunning. IE as a counter to marauders or something.

pine adder
#

AFAIK those "hold lurker" plays don't work in BAR because units see hold-fire mines when they're walking over them and can just shoot them down

tame blade
#

also cant be used as offensive tool, like spies, which can just hold huge amount of porc for 30 seconds for thier 135m price...
and easily countered by juno

thin mesa
#

Imagine gremlins but with the toolkit of a commando - there's a reason the latter doesn't have a cloak

tame blade
#

well this will be spies
currently they have to be renamed to stealthy cloakable EMP bomb

thin mesa
#

Yeah so if they have the same toolkit, what's the point of going commandos, which are vastly more expensive?

tame blade
#

commando can be dropped from transport

thin mesa
tame blade
#

its very hard to get into base with spy currently

thin mesa
#

Oop sorry that was in reference to your most recent message

#

I've gotten like 5 gremlins into the backline on strait too, so it's far from impossible. Ig my point is that a bot that does the same things gremlins do but with far more damage is too OP and will make gremlins obselete. Also commandos would be extremely powerful if they had a cloak, to the extent that I could see them being viable on most maps without the air drop

#

Because they just hit much harder than the gremlin

#

So now everywhere you see a spybot sneak that's not the front line, imagine mines appearing next to reactors

#

It's too much, and dramatically more annoying than EMPs. Capture is also a whole nother mechanic that doesn't really fit what a "spy" bot is, imo

#

I just think a 5-10 second EMP would be perfect because 30 is comically ridiculous

#

Maybe as you said a 20% smaller radius or smthn

slender jetty
#

people can build intrusions detection buildings to detect spies and gremlins. they are not very expensive i think

tame blade
thin mesa
#

Again, you would be making the unit just an upgraded Gremlin

#

And the Gremlin is already very strong if used right, I do not think replacing an EMP with the capacity to send up the entire backline is ideal

#

Imagine if the stiletto dropped 5 liche bombs

normal shell
#

emp bombers are incredibly unfair, very unfun as well. They do so much for a unit that is cheap and fast to access the entire map and can put a hard stop to nearly any push that isn't thors or juggernauts, even if ground antiair exists

strong sedge
thin mesa
night oasis
#

We already talked about this brah
And since it cant spam EMP mexes

thin mesa
#

They're way too powerful for what they are, and it makes ARM T2 air kinda uninteresting and makes buffing anything else in the toolkit (despite a serious need to do so) much harder

#

Imo it should drop less bombs or have a smaller AOE, but then the highwind should have rough parity with the nighthawk

#

That way both sides get actually good air superiority, and each has a solid EMP option that isn't game-breaking even well into the T3 stage

#

Plus it would allow more funny Liche plays and the Liche makes me happy

winter meadow
winter meadow
tame blade
# thin mesa Imo it should drop less bombs or have a smaller AOE, but then the highwind shoul...

both figs should be nerfed i think, currently it is ultimate whole-map AA that kills everything else in seconds, and to use any air you must first kill enemy fighters with your fighters, and this gameplay is kinda bad.
Ground AA is nowhere near as effective as fighters. I recently played a forge game, and made like 20 flaks , and still got bombed in that particular spot, Consider it only covers the single map point, while fighters can come at any danger.

long range AA missile launchers also just a meme unit, 5 stockpile ammo, and 10 second reload to spend it on scout or shuriken rarely worth it.

winter meadow
#

I agree that the fighter swarm gameplay is not interesting at all

#

you make a swarm and if you have a bigger swarm than the other guy you get to send your bombing run. 0 skill involved, it's just eco.

#

potentially you could add AA to T2 bombers

#

after all, bombers in history always had AA

thin mesa
#

I'm writing up a big suggestion rn to diversity Air to Air

#

Includes interceptors, flak gunships, air superiority fighters, all that jazz

winter meadow
#

a while back I suggested decoy missiles

#

just like in top gun, dropping a decoy to attract the enemy missile

#

but it'd be easier to add AA to bombers. IMO Liches should have AA, similar to Marauders, and Dragons should be able to fire their lasers at fighters

#

if Dragons can mince up fighters, then they're not a meme unit anymore

untold jacinth
#

dragons might become a bit too good then

winter meadow
#

maybe, it's always a fine line pepehmm

winter meadow
#

but imagine if dragons could decimate fighter screens peepoWOW ATM the only counter for fighter screens is just more fighters... it kills the servers, drops FPS for everyone, and is just completely devoid of skill

tame blade
#

back in TAesc of 2010 it was a unit that looks like dragon, but it was huge LoS provider and armed with few a2a flaks.

untold jacinth
#

We're very off topic for an EMP thread, but what of heavy fighters?

#

T2 heavy fighters that have a longer range than T2 normal fighters

#

Giving significant alpha strike capability if well utilized

tame blade
#

fighters just need nerf and price increase i tthink. no point to discuss that since the air overall will be overhauled i guess

winter meadow
#

then T1 fighters need a nerf too, since Armada air players build those instead of T2 already

tame blade
#

idk how it was balanced in OTA/ TAesc tbh, i don't remember, but there was no such thing as "Fighter screen"

#

people had some fighters in reasonable amounts (10-30 of them) to react to some bombers or gunships
mostly gunships
because bombers usually was countered by ground AA protecting key positions

lilac jewel
#

You can see in this thread who never played air

#

Fighters don't need price increase, they are most expensive basic unit of all

#

3k energy a pop in early game

#

And ground aa is very important

#

Much better then making a fighter. You need enemy to suffer attrition every time they enter your airspace

tame blade
#

i believe air cost in bar is mostly a buildtime, and thanks to op nano towers its not a big deal especially in late game. There was no nano towers in taesc and ota, and it was way harder to spam aircrafts

lilac jewel
#

If there's 0 ground aa and it's cor vs arm air, you loose every time

tame blade
#

core t2 air has shit a2g options
no emp, no liche, no hornets

#

dragons are just a joke

lilac jewel
#

Core t2 bombers are just better

tame blade
#

but you barely can bomb the armies

lilac jewel
#

You can bomb bases

tame blade
#

unlike emping them with single stiletto

lilac jewel
#

And 8 bombers will absolutely annihilate army

tame blade
#

why are you playing arm only air then?

#

probably because stiletto, abductor and liche too op

lilac jewel
#

Because I'm not cor player.
I only steal your units if I like it

tame blade
#

abductors are fine, ok, no problem, requires good micro
and its fun

#

but emp bombers are pure broken imba units at current cost

#

stopping 10x cost armies in one bombing without any ground counter to it, at any map position

lilac jewel
#

They are much better balanced then spies

#

Much more expensive, 8s stun, still one way trip for them past first few bombers, even first few if enemy has core air

#

And you can't defend shurikens and attack emp bombers

#

Arm has no options for t1 support. It has worse t1 bombers too

#

Fight just one shot each other still I think, so more = better

winter meadow
#

Arm T1 air has no shuriken but no one is trying to fix that

#

IMO both Armada T1 air and Cortex T2 air need some fixing. Dragons need to be able to shoot down fighters, Armada T1 air needs something... dunno what

#

when ever I play Armada air, I just try to tech up to T2 as fast as possible, coz I only contribute bombers

lilac jewel
#

Dragons are good vs ground anti aìr

winter meadow
#

yeah but since the meta is fighter screen... at least in 8v8, then you don't see dragons

lilac jewel
#

Can't be able to kill both.
They could be reworked, but not just given ability to kill fighters

winter meadow
#

if they can destroy fighters, then only long range AA would kill dragons indeed

#

and a LOT of them would be needed for that

lilac jewel
#

You could drain that with few t1 fighters

#

Then move in with dragons.
Long range stuff has terrible dps.
Just good because it loads 5 shots

#

Also, expensive

winter meadow
lilac jewel
#

Make dragons a t2 shuriken

winter meadow
#

I think it's good cortex has T1 EMP and Armada has T2 EMP

lilac jewel
#

They complain of no options

winter meadow
#

but then Armada has the almighty Liche and Cortex has a useless dragon

lilac jewel
#

So, gave my solution. EMP dragon

#

I want emp fighter in exchange tho, to emp air units

winter meadow
#

I got an even crazier idea : make the dragon able to transport tzars and cataphracts

lilac jewel
#

Tears are transportable

winter meadow
#

they are ?

lilac jewel
#

*tzars

winter meadow
#

oh pepehmm

tame blade
#

i suggested making dragon T3 in t3 lab and some bigger weapon like jaggernaut heat ray, also probably bigger and more expensive idk...

lilac jewel
#

No XD

winter meadow
#

how about 4 Dragons can lift a Behemoth peepoWOW

tame blade
#

their current dps is a joke for their 5100 and 72000 cost
its 1/2 of thor

lilac jewel
#

That's most op weapon in the game

winter meadow
#

yeah dragons are too slow to make an impact

tame blade
#

imagine thors countered by 130m units in two seconds
killed

winter meadow
#

their range is terrible too

#

the flying flagship in scavengers units works very well coz of the crazy range

lilac jewel
#

Titans are emp able

#

Only unit above 10k that is

winter meadow
tame blade
#

yeah countered by your "definitely not op" emp bombers lol

#

or even shurikens

#

thats why this thread exists. I think emp needs some overhaul. Slower and thougher units should be exponentially emp resistant: tzars/ mammoths / sumos / slow T3 shit should be VERY emp resistant

#

while fiends and faster units like jaguars should be emp vulnerable
as is now

#

and 30second and tac-nuke aoe spy's emp is also too much for 135m for cloakable stealth unit

#

aoe should 2x less

to stun single targets and way harder to micro
keep anti stuns, but not entire armies 30x cost of a spy

lilac jewel
#

Spybots should get revealed by a camera

winter meadow
#

I think 30 sec is way too much yeah

#

and you can definitely test EMP resistance on beefier units

lilac jewel
#

Pretty sure some have it

winter meadow
#

imo for big units like T3 and mammoth, you got the heavily under used EMP launcher anyway

lilac jewel
#

It takes fair bit to stun mammoth. 3 emp bombers I think

#

Emp launcher is underused because its joke

#

Costs as much as tac nuke to shoot, doesn't kill stuff

winter meadow
#

yeah so focus on making THAT more useful

#

and add some of nikuksis' changes

lilac jewel
#

I would just remove it imo, or make it much larger radius and lower range

winter meadow
#

if u remove it you need to replace it with sth

lilac jewel
#

Or just cheaper.
They have one use case. If enemy is lob enough, you can make one in range of lolcannon and emp it

winter meadow
#

imo historically the idea was Pulsar >>> Bullwark so Tac Nuke >>> EMP launcher

lilac jewel
#

Bulwark is much superior to pulsar vs anything that's not heavy tank or better

#

Also, 2 tac nukes are cheaper, one shot pulsar and have more range

winter meadow
#

but they're manual

lilac jewel
#

Yeah, but now you have 2 tactics nukes and enemy has no pulsar

winter meadow
#

defending a Cortex base against T3 push with tac nukes is much harder than with Pulsars imo unless the enemy is dumb and sends everything in the same spot again and again

#

no built in radar either

lilac jewel
#

Pulsar can't be monster ppl claim it is when it's trivial to hard counter them.
What's arm answer to bulwark.
Emp it?

#

You have to siege it, takes a while, easy to mount a response

winter meadow
#

Sharpshooters, Starlights, Vanguards

#

the first two have the same range as Bulwark, the third outrange it

#

Ambassadors too

lilac jewel
#

Same stuff counters pulsar tho

winter meadow
#

no coz nothing outranges a pulsar

#

no moving unit at least

#

even a catapult doesn't outrange it (barely though, you can kite)

lilac jewel
#

It has less range then catapults and same as missile veh

#

Also, tremors

winter meadow
#

Pulsar range is 1400, man

#

Tremor 1275, Negotiator 1310, Catapult 1350

lilac jewel
#

You can shootpulsar with tremor without it being in range

#

Same with Catapult.

#

Veh can bait a shot with cheap unit, then one shot it with few of them

winter meadow
#

Pulsar has radar range of 1500 and laser range of 1400

#

so it's physically impossible to shoot it with vehicles/bots while not being in range

#

it's just that often you distract it with other stuff

lilac jewel
#

They have large spread on shots

#

I lost pulsar to tremor in plain sight

#

Never catapult but building pulsars already rare for me.
Catapults definitely have more then enough spread on their shots

winter meadow
#

sometimes they should at the feet of the unit and you don't fully know why yeah

lilac jewel
#

It couldn't shoot back

#

If its out of range it just ignores the command

#

Shoots other stuff

high mango
#

2 notes

  1. Pulsar can fire outside the red range circle a little bit, due to a misplaced AimFrom point.
  2. Tremor with "Spread Fire" mode has 1470 range. So it can outrange a pulsar, but takes ~3 minutes to kill the pulsar.
tame blade
#

not sure how this related to EMP tho

winter meadow
#

you can tell us to shut up it's alright 😅 we were way off topic

#

we were just saying Armada has an amazing T2 laser turret compared to Cortex, and that's why Armada was given a crappy EMP launcher

#

so if you nerf Stilettos, Shurikens, but then buff the EMP launcher, Armada tower defense becomes OP

tame blade
#

after tac nuke nerf its way better
very op at stunning porc and anties

winter meadow
#

stunning an anti, the dream play

tame blade
#

pretty often happens

winter meadow
#

I've seen a nice one with a spybot, the nuked guy didn't see the EMP, didn't understand, thought the other guy cheated pepethink

tame blade
#

emp is way easier if you can build one close eough

winter meadow
#

yeah coz just dragon teeth around the anti nuke will prevent the spy bot EMP right ? dunno how many layers though

lilac jewel
tame blade
#

tac nuke also not that popular

lilac jewel
#

XDXDXD

#

Forge map is lost as soon as you spawn without cortex. That map alone is 10X more tac nuke launchers then emp launchers together in all of BAR

tame blade
#

well this is where tac nuke is at best value, emp also is very strong with its range, you can permaEMP the whole base with it or anti, where tac nuke can only shoot at close targets

lilac jewel
#

Except it costs you more then it costs them unless you are stunning afus clusters

tame blade
#

you can stun geos

#

tac nuke before january change was good, now its niche

#

and forge map IS one of these niche usage

lilac jewel
#

It outrages any static defense short of lrpc

tame blade
#

btw i think tac nuke shouldnt deform ground
that is what makes is op on forge

lilac jewel
#

"niche" I see it built on frontlines on most maps

tame blade
civic spoke
#

emp launcher is hilariously op on forge, you can easily kill front bases with combination of lrpc and emp launcher disabling bubbles, and then shooting geos, and there is actually zero counters to that, except for not building boom geos beforehand

lilac jewel
#

loads random 30+ min game
Oh, look.
Trully never built anywhere

tame blade
#

its not frontline 🙂

lilac jewel
#

This guy is just trolling lol

#

Middle of the map: Not a front line

tame blade
#

and yea, rarely its built on these hills on koom, as well as emps, i think they are equal and balanced enough

candid harbor
#

tac nuke used to be hilariously op lmao. i agree now it's niche. I was a primary tac nuke nerf proponent before and I'm happy it did get nerfed, but imo could use build time buff now

lilac jewel
#

5/1 is score so far EMP vs Tac nuke in this game

#

5/0 nwm

#

Never finished. Both sides only tac nukes

tame blade
#

i dont say its useless. it has usage, same as emp, situational. i dont even want emp launcher nerfs, though EMP overall is too op

candid harbor
#

emp missile is fine, yeah it's really really strong, but at least you have to think about what you use it on

lilac jewel
#

No way same. Or EMP better. You say how OP EMP is but tac nukes only thing being built, wonder why

candid harbor
#

can you believe tac nuke used to have 500 more range lol

#

also larger aoe (but less damage)

lilac jewel
#

Yeah, it way WAYYYY overtuned. My problem is only with cor players whining about EMP when its, comparing to tac nuke still way worse

#

We still at 6/0. Thats a final and total tally it would seem. One EMP someone tried to make was never finished.

#

Both team tac nukes, noone EMP

#

Sheep isnt best at using them tho RIP

image.png
#

3 died in meantime, but more were made. 0 EMP whole game

image.png
#

Maybe you should tell those lobs that EMP is OP

tame blade
#

emp nuke is fine, so is the tac nuke.
but arms currently have much much more op things than core, and therefore in pro lobby theres 1.5 more arm players than core

tame blade
# tame blade emp nuke is fine, so is the tac nuke. but arms currently have much much more op ...

sneaky pete, tick, janus, jaguar, better veh arty, liche, abductor, better T3(not that much after recent core buffs but still),cheaper spies and finally EMP bombers.
while core op units are only shurikens and fiends probably, T2 figs difference not that important imo, because T2 airlab is more versatile and better than core one.

both factions have good units, and currently thread is not about that.
This thread is about EMP and i say both factions have op EMP shit:

EMP bombers for Arm, Shurikens for Core and both spybots.
As i said before i think slow and massive units have to have great stun resistance, so lighter units are easier to be stunned than big units.
I'd suggest adding 50-90% emp resistance on slow T2 units like fatboys, tzars, mammoths, sumos, zeuses etc. Keep emp only good against faster units (btw this will make arm jaguars even more op compared to fiends since they have builtin AA)

untold jacinth
#

I agree

#

Sumo's are a neat unit in theorey however are almost never used because they're so slow they can just be repeatedly EMP'ed

#

In a way things like T1 spamming infront of your heavy T2 can work as a sort of anti-spy shield

#

Still, thats an additional cost and makes these units less useful

#

I think sumo's could use a buff, and buffing EMP resistance would be a good way to do it

lilac jewel
#

Sumos are absolutely disgusting cost efficiency wise. Most cor units are powerful, balanced by being slow.

tame blade
#

slow is very important stat lol, how could it be powerful if it cant just went out of lab

lilac jewel
#

Sure, speed them up and lower DPS and hp

snow canopy
#

Whenever I learned and used spybot EMP I always thought it was a bit too powerful. I can think of several possible nerfs, including a detonation time increase or AoE decrease. I don't want it to be capable of capture or building stuff, then any kind of spy that makes it to the backline could be an enormous and annoying threat rather than a sometimes enormous threat (e.g. if it finds an antinuke).

Air based EMP is very strong but I like it that way. It won't get the job done on its own but it's an amazing force multiplier. It mainly works against units, against which air has pretty terrible options otherwise (bombers miss, gunship dps is low).

Shuriken/stiletto really fall off once there's AA since the stun doesn't last long enough for units to sweep in and clean up in time

thin mesa
thin mesa
#

The majority of games are played by low or mid level players. Is suspect those games you watched were largely in those brackets. Tacnukes are easier to use than emp, because they're far less micro intensive

#

They also just...seem better. "Tactical missile launcher" just feels straight better than "EMP missile launcher"

#

I assure you they have a use case, but emp missile launched are extremely useful as well

lilac jewel
thin mesa
#

Explain. Also a cherry picked sample size of 2 is not making your case

lilac jewel
#

I picked game randomly from my replays

thin mesa
#

In all the brightworks replays I've watched, for instance EMP is more prevalent

thin mesa
lilac jewel
#

Sure, go make large sample.

#

If any game I pick has more tac nukes when they arent being made at all to the point 11/1 is trying to be made a game

#

That argument is likely suspect, isnt it?

civic spoke
#

In the game screenshots you have sent anyone could've easily build emp launcher, disable antinuke on the hill and nuke the hill out of existance. Just because they didn't think about the easy way to destroy entrenched enemy position with the tac nukes, that would not be able to do anything about it, doesn't make emp launcher bad

lilac jewel
#

If they had infinite money, buildpower and godmode to know what to emp, sure

#

Or they could build tac nuke and reliably get many times its value without previously stated things

civic spoke
#

pepeyep building two structures and flying some scouts in now apparently a high level strategy
i mean I literally was in position of being nuked like that several times, so some players are smart enough

lilac jewel
#

I see 3 bases that are nukable without any EMP on that screenshot if you have cor nuke

civic spoke
#

you are also overstating how worth the tacnuke is, 6 tacnukes you have selected have a total of 23 kills, unless those 23 kills were something like snipers they don't even pay for themself

lilac jewel
#

Go call malady a lob

#

Should have scouted

civic spoke
#

scouting frontal antinuke is way easier than scouting full map for gaps, thats not a sudden revelation
malady is a great player and its not relevant whether they employed this particular strategy or not, the strategy still exists

lilac jewel
#

Scouting is hard if you dont play noob lobby

thin mesa
tame blade
#

both launchers are good and usefull and niche. this thread not about launchers

thin mesa
#

Idk if the person who built them is TS50 or whatever (they're not), that is not how to use them

civic spoke
thin mesa
#

Which throws into suspect your claim about their prevalence among high level players. The EMP launcher is much better imo, although tacnukes are pretty good

tame blade
#

BTW you can permastun lolcannon with emp nuke

thin mesa
#

Neither needs a nerf I'll tell you that

lilac jewel
#

If you can build one in its range

thin mesa
#

You're crazy lmao

#

EMP can disable an entire front line

#

Tacnukes don't even kill clumps of T2 tanks and have a tiny radius

tame blade
#

EMP nuke is way harder to use, but it can wipe people by disabling anties or porc or lolcannon , while tac nuke is more straightforward weapon, but much weaker by 1.5 lower range. So they are both good...

lilac jewel
thin mesa
#

Wdym

#

"8v8 noobs" is like the most common lobby type there is

lilac jewel
#

lol

#

That game, most definitely isnt "8v8 noobs" If those players cant use something, noobs definitely cant

thin mesa
lilac jewel
#

At 4x the price a pop

tame blade
#

I make this thread mainy for shurikens/stillettos and for spybots

I think they all should be nerfed, and spybots should be equalized

lilac jewel
#

+initial price of launcher ofc

thin mesa
#

The obvious advantage of a missile launcher is it trades efficiency for range. That's the fundamental bedrock of how game balancing works dude

lilac jewel
thin mesa
#

And like...it doesn't matter, it could cost ten spybots to build that middle if it disables that anti or those 40 tigers on the front

thin mesa
lilac jewel
#

Cor unit

thin mesa
#

Anyhow show me the TS of the players in that game

thin mesa
civic spoke
lilac jewel
#

OP, I know.

.>
Oh, boy.

Do you wanna tell him Nukuksis?

thin mesa
#

Yeah the skuttle is good lol

#

What I'm saying is that you're making my point. If it's so good, it would make the TML less useful

#

Spybots are different because the range on the missile launcher is so vast

lilac jewel
civic spoke
#

again, skill of player is irrelevant, you even shot yourself in foot, look at the selected 6 tacnukes that cost 7200m with the grand total of 23 kills, how exactly is that op tactic in any case?

lilac jewel
#

Second pic? Most used forward tac nukes are dead.

civic spoke
#

so they can be countered

lilac jewel
#

Several are newly built, as they are still constructed.

civic spoke
#

by killing them
op

lilac jewel
#

So, on those that werent closest to front line, and arent newly built? 65 kills

#

Oh, ye, only 3 kargs traded for 3 tac nukes OP

civic spoke
#

well, yea, 1 emp launcher and 10 scout planes would be better trade, I agree

lilac jewel
#

My dude, you are willfully ignorant.

#

Go make some EMP launchers and scouts pls

#

We will meet again when you are 40os

#

Sry. 60+ Youll even beat non EMP making malady

civic spoke
#

willfully ignorant of what again? you never said why scouting for antinuke and emping it is hard strategy?
again I have been on receiving side of it, by mbt
and mbt is now almost higher than malady
so it checks out I guess

thin mesa
# lilac jewel

Why are you so averse to providing an in-replay screenshot of the names 💀

#

Actually would you mind sending over the replay file, just upload it here if possible

#

Or send the link. I'm going to see what exactly this 3 million IQ catalyst play is that you're talking about it

thin mesa
#

But Malady using them in one game when I'm fairly certain he mains core and not arm is not evidence that they're better than EMP

#

Like I've seen Clyret, the literal top player, use all sorts of things from the armada toolkit but that doesn't mean that the cortex counterpart is strictly worse

#

More situational =/= worse. The whole point of Armada doctrine is a swiss army knife with a tool for every situation. In those situations, which do come up fairly often (especially on maps like straits), an EMP missile launcher is more versatile and far more effective than a tacnuke is

untold jacinth
#

EMP missile travel time is very long, its very difficult to hit moving units with

#

EMP missile is far better at countering lolcannons or other valuable statics

#

EMP missile is 3650 range where lolcannon is 6100, in order for lolcannon to shoot your backline effectively its likely within 3650 range from your frontline

#

You can permastun the lolcannon with just 2 or 3 EMP missile launchers

#

My point is EMP missile launcher is probably more situational than tacnuke

#

Tacnuke can almost always be used for some value, 2 missiles destroy a T2 mex or some other expensive defensive building

thin mesa
#

It takes 2 missiles to destroy a T2 mex??????

#

Always forget how sturdy those mfs are lmao

untold jacinth
#

they do cost 640m

#

the first almost kills it, the second completely destroys it, leaving no wreck to reclaim

#

the leaving no wreck bit is very useful, the enemy will have to rebuild the T2 mex from nothing

#

mmmm/

#

metalpershot = 550,

I just checked the code to ensure I wasn't giving bad advice

#

Seems like I was somewhat wrong, at 550m your shooting 1100 to kill a 640 structure

#

It could be worth it based on the production of a T2 mex being +8/s

#

A single minute of downtime of a T2 mex placed on a 2.0 deposi is 8*60=480, so you break even from tacnuking a T2 mex if it takes the other player 1 minute to repair it

#

tacnuke structure itself costs 1200m, which isn't very much I suppose

#

Your probably better off tacnuking something more valuable than a mex, of course if the metal deposit is above 2 its totally worth it

#

On glitters there's metal spots in the middle worth 3.5

3.5*4*60=840

so 840 metal denies per minute its dead

wet hawk
#

28 seconds of downtime on a 4.0 patch is break even for the missile then?

untold jacinth
#

Yeah, for a T2 mex on it

#

m cost from rebuilding and downtime is 1068, about equal to your 1100 from your 2 missiles

#

A 4.0 deposit with a T2 mex would produce 16m per tick

wet hawk
#

Surprised I haven't seen more tacnukes on Jade then. They'd be murder in the southwest.

untold jacinth
#

on rosetta there's a 10.0 deposit in the middle of both teams frontlines, I usually play core on that map to get a tacnuke near the front to constantly deny the enemy 10.0 deposit

#

since a 10.0 deposit is +40m per tick

thats 9600 per minute

#

close to an afus worth of metla

civic spoke
#

T2 mex on rosetta is worth it to be constantly emped by emp launcher too, and way easier to build emp launcher in range of it as you can do it from your hill and reach enemy.

untold jacinth
#

how long does an EMP missile stun a mex for?

turbid pebble
#

Maybe people should try the units they complain so much about and not just be on the receiving end of it

thin mesa
#

If you break even, you're essentially using a few thousand metal to annoy someone for like...1 action per two minutes

lilac jewel
thin mesa
#

Send the replay file hon

#

Also don't call me Jesus

lilac jewel
#

Go find it, I'm done entertaining you ^^
Also some of us have life dear.
Work op.

#

It's not hard to find replays if you know ppl who played.

wet hawk
#

If the mex alone is worth building the thing, then any other targets on top of that are just a bonus. 🙂

thin mesa
#

There's more than just a few of them you impossibly goofy goober, I'm giving you a perfect chance to own my here by proving your point

#

Unless you just made stuff up but surely no one would lie on this most holy platform

thin mesa
#

The problem fundamentally is that it's over a very short time frame

#

A tactical missile launcher doesn't exactly go up quick, and if you want to still have units, proper eco scaling, etc, you're putting it up by the midgame/late-midgame at the earliest

#

By that point, for the investment, how many extractors can you pick off before they start becoming less relevant?

#

On a 2-metal spot, and advanced metal extractor produces ~8 metal

#

A single AFUS can produce around 50 I believe, and those can be built safely deep inside one's own territory and form the basis of basically every late game economy

#

While more metal is always nice, I just feel like their cost makes them come up way too late to make them matter much for such simple tasks as harassing down a single metal extractor

#

This isn't even to mention the fact that the extractor could definitely be repaired before the next launch charges with a half dozen butlers, which makes the TML get functionally zero value

lilac jewel
#

No, you just write the names in replay search

#

First map of same type is hit 95% of the time

surreal snow
#

I honestly do not mind emp bombers at all, just wish ground based aa had a little more emp resistance so it is actually useful.
I like that one guy cant just snowball a whole game but that pushes require a team effort to overcome air support etc. Spybots are a little too good I agree, honestly would be better if it stunned for way less time because currently 1-2 spybot explosions is extremely game changing while any other units many times its price do not have such a massive impact on the game.

tame blade
#

we need more emp resistanses.
on slow pushers and Aa at least

wide loom
#

Yeah I think it's totally fair to give some units extra paralyze resist. Would also be neat if paralyzed units could be repaired by any repair-capable constructor to bring them back online faster.

grim sapphire
wide loom
#

It would also mean you have the choice between spending resources mitigating enemy EMP effectiveness or not doing so and allowing them a bit more efficacy.

#

Another little bit of added strategic depth 🙂

grim sapphire
#

would give them a reason to be sent to the frontline to repair instead of/in combination with rezbots too

thin mesa
#

Heavy CORE units already have very high resistances tbf, but ngl I think buffing those of the Mammoth, Shiva and Karg would be nice

#

Side note but it cracked me up when I looked up "Karganeth" and found out that it's literally just a made up word designed to sound as crunchy and spikey as humanly possible

tame blade
winter meadow
#

yeah Jaguars should not be EMP resistant

#

they're the first T2 unit people build, it's exactly the type of unit that should be affected and stopped by Stilettos

#

fast units should not be resistant IMO

tame blade
#

i'd say the more mass = harder to stun

#

and may be no immunities. just high mass units requires insane amount of emp to be stunned
like if you have 100 emp bombers, you still be able to stun juggernaut

lilac jewel
#

Jaggs are emp immune.
So are behemoths and thord

wide loom
grim sapphire
#

Jaguars being emp immune makes sense thematically due to using lightning as a weapon, but balance-wise it's probably one of the worst units to be given that

fair scroll
#

Jaguars are not emp immune, they just have light aa that keeps them safe from 1 or 2 drones

#

I think Platys51 is meaning juggs for juggernauts

grim sapphire
high mango
#

Jaguars are immune to lightning chaining. So Thors do not get their AOE bonus damage when firing at a group of Jaguars.

grim sapphire
#

Though it does seem to lead to confusion every single time someone refers to juggs as jaggs

high mango
#

And the confusion that the internal dev name for behemoth is corjugg

grim sapphire
#

Same with corsumo and all the others along those lines

#

"Jagg" is just 1 i don't understand how it became common. Off-topic, but is there a reason why some people call it that?

mighty flame
#

"Jag" has been short for Jaguar in English probably since the fame of the eponymous car.

grim sapphire
#

i mean people referring to juggernauts as jaggs

high mango
tame blade
tame blade
#

currently slower and bigger units are generally sux in bar already due to flanking mechanics and being very vulnerable to emp and dguns. So i think making big slow units emp resistant makes sense for me

lilac jewel
#

It makes sense on most of t3

#

Not under it.
Mammoths already sport chonky 50% emp ressist

#

Nerf spy bots.
Noone is disagreeing there, 30s stun is op on units.

tame blade
#

emp bombers and little bit less shurikens are too op too

#

few 230m units should not be able to block all pushes that easily even when push have T2 mobile AA

#

shurikens at least can be killed quickly with any AA

#

everyone also agreed about emp bombers if mention that in game. you're just an abuser of them , and therefore you are one who against any nerfs to it.

#

btw related to mininukes:
#1118255116747804682 message

grim sapphire
# tame blade i dont see a connection between lightning weapons and emp immunity

Just that the E in EMP is for "electro", and something built to weaponize electricity is probably fairly protected from it in order to prevent self-inflicted damage. That, and i'm fairly sure i've played a decent number of video games where resistance to electricity/shock/whatever term is used also gave resistance to EMP effects

#

Probably a connection in at least decent number of people's heads. None of that means it should decide balance stuff

north mural
#

Its typically called "hardening" or "shielding" for real world stuff, but "EMP Resistance" fits with videogame language for attack types and counters

lucid thistle
north mural
grim sapphire
# lucid thistle i call them juggs

i see ~95% of people call them juggs, but even in pro lobby that 5% is often present and it leads to miscommunication because someone thought a jaguar callout was about a juggernaut or vice-versa

grim sapphire
tame blade
#

how about making Juno able to kill spybots ?
or at least reveal for X seconds?

lucid thistle
#

+1 for making it reveal cloaked units

lilac jewel
#

+2

winter meadow
#

does Juno friendly fire your own radars ?

north mural
#

Yes

queen stump
#

While EMP bombers are brutal on their own, ARM air is at an extreme disadvantage vs Core air. Everybody saw that fighter imba thread, right? OP ARM air units mean nothing if they can't get air supremacy. I don't dare going ARM air on most maps anymore.

grim sapphire
#

Either make mass t1 figs as arm, or get someone's cor con and make cor t2 figs. You need multiple labs pumping units as an air player anyway in mid-lategame

lucid thistle
#

The plate walk off time is minuscule so you have way less diminishing returns on buildpower

lilac jewel
#

Also all units are fairly expensive

#

I do need multiple labs, but I play arm so those are to spam mass t1 fighs

#

I usually make 3x4 block with air lab on both sides

lucid thistle
#

You can make like 2-3 units/sec with an air lab, maybe even more, so you need one hell of an economy to sustain multiple labs full tilt

lilac jewel
#

For just spamming fighs on repeat.
Or just plop down t1 lab next to my t2 for mix because t1 fighs do suffer attrition by just existing quite often

#

So you need t2

grim sapphire
#

Air is my least-played role so i'll accept that i'm likely incorrect, but the matches i have gone air have mostly gone very lategame, to the point where hundreds of aircons are involved, and the price of 1 extra t2 lab that can have its own pile of nanos feels insignificant for the option of massing cor t2 fighters, partially paid for by being able to have its own stack of nano bp working on it instead of cost-inefficient t1 air cons

tame blade
#

i think air is mostly inherit OTA costs, but in OTA we didn't have so powerful nano-towers, which can mitigate any buildtime costs, which are very high for air, so air was not that spammable

lilac jewel
#

Cor always wins fig duel tho, unless enemy is incompetent ofc

#

So hardly can both be op when one side dies before any other stage of the air play can arrive

grim sapphire
#

arm t2 figs are pretty bad compared to all other figs, and there's a thread dedicated to that, whether or not fighters are op on the whole

lilac jewel
#

Arm air is played with hit and run

#

Because you can't fight head on.
Also, if noone in your team builds ground aa, expect flame.
A lot of flame as cor fighs kill all your stuff for free & enemy has total air control

winter meadow
#

either fighters need a nerf, or bombers need AA

lucid thistle
#

The answer is to make figs bad at killing figs

#

So there isn't really a reason to spam them as much anymore

#

Make it so that statics are the best fig killers, and make gunships the best air at killing statics

#

Then you can have a rock paper scizzors with figs, gunships, and static AA

north mural
#

That sounds pretty nice, very tired of the 500+ fig walls which lag games

lucid thistle
#

Throw in multiple kinds of static AA good againt different types of air and weak to different types of air and then you can add bombers to the list

winter meadow
#

killing another fighter is insanely hard

winter meadow
lucid thistle
#

Make flak good at killing figs and long range AA good at killing bombers (remove the whole charges mechanic and just give it a normal reload) and then make gunships good at killing static AA and you're done

#

Can't spam anymore as you need to have a balanced air comp to deal with enemy AA and figs for bombing runs

winter meadow
#

imo long range AA simply shouldn't be able to hit fighters or sth

lucid thistle
#

I've been suggesting these changes here and there for months now

winter meadow
#

these are good suggestions for sure

north mural
#

I'm a big fan

winter meadow
#

the swarm is bad on all levels : lack of skill, destroys servers and players computers, makes static AA irrelevant

#

there are many hell games that should be easier to end with massive bombing runs

#

instead they stay a stalemate coz the fighter swarms are too great on both sides

#

so you wait endlessly for massive thor/juggs pushes or a couple of lolcannons

lucid thistle
#

These changes would also make it harder to do bombing runs without ground support as you can no longer spam figs to get through the enemy fig wall

#

You will need mobile ground based AA

winter meadow
#

you know what would be great for that ? an AA gremlin

lucid thistle
#

Give commando a flak gun

winter meadow
#

or that

grim sapphire
#

flak already kills air extremely quickly if you compare cost-effectiveness to figs, the thing is that figs are the only aa fast enough to reactively collapse on a bombing run before it's too late

winter meadow
#

if you make fighters not good a killing fighters, but they're still good at killing bombers, you still need to add AA to bombers imo

#

coz having ground AA pushing up to help your bombing run is too difficult imo

#

they'd get destroyed

grim sapphire
#

making figs worse at killing figs just...results in a net neutral of figs being the same against figs

#

except the fights would take a bit longer

winter meadow
#

ultimately we agree though, we need a way to get rid of those fighter swarms

#

at the moment players only build static AA if they feel like their air player is slacking

grim sapphire
#

because static aa only covers a small area while figs cover the whole map

lucid thistle
#

the player with ground AA wins, and figs will just be there to fight off gunships and bombers

grim sapphire
#

the player with ground aa already wins, if the ground aa is actually close enough to contribute

lucid thistle
#

but now the person with ground AA wins harder

#

and you can't rely solely on figs for air defense

#

might need some tweaking

#

maybe an air unit that's good at fighting figs but dies to everything else

#

but then that just feels like another fig

#

allowing bombers to fight figs isn't a good idea because that would just make figs useless

#

maybe make figs only good vs gunships?

#

that way a good defence is a combination of ground based AA for anti fig and anti bomber, while fighters are there to protect them from gunships

grim sapphire
#

i really don't think there's any solution short of the complete rework of air in general that's thrown around as an idea but without anyone being confident in how it should be executed

lucid thistle
#

this is derailing the thread though

grim sapphire
#

yeah...

wet hawk
lucid thistle
#

it strengthens bomber spam and makes spamming fighters even more necessary since you now need more of them to defend against the bombers

#

the reason fighter spam exists is firstly because bomber spam exists and secondly because fig spam exists

wet hawk
lucid thistle
#

it doesn't fix the problem though, quite the opposite in fact

grim sapphire
wet hawk
lucid thistle
#

don't worry about it, i also get heated in debates

lilac jewel
#

It makes Core only stronger

#

Because now your fighs die to their, and whatever you have left over because they made bombers, dies to the bombers they made

lilac jewel
#

EMP OP, it can fly in circles infinitely lol

image.png
tame blade
#

probably it was targeted to unit which is not exists anymore or cloaked?

lilac jewel
#

Second time I see this magnificent beast in recent history

image.png
#

It has yet to shoot but still, someone built it

tame blade
#

strange i see it almost every long-running game

#

disable lolcannon for 1/10 price is op

#

i don't think its much rarer than tacnuke

#

its ok that its rarer tho, because usage is way tricky, and rewarding also.

grim sapphire
#

Emp nukes don't need to be built if emp bombers and spybots aren't "countered" yet, or later if thors have been made so you have a rolling emp silo

lilac jewel
#

They have 1 niche use case of stunning lolcannon

#

You have to make it deep in its range and keep it alive long enough tho

#

So usually most damage is done way before you get stun off if you going to do it

grim sapphire
#

they'd be used a lot more if spybots and emp bombers weren't op at doing a similar job in situations other than lolcannon stunning, but even so, they're not that rare as-is

#

for example, if it took more than 1 emp bomber payload or 1 spybot to get a full stun on a razorback, but emp silo still got the full stun in 1 shot, that would be more reason to use emp silo

lilac jewel
#

Not really

#

Missile takes forever to hit.
Good luck hitting anything that's not porc

grim sapphire
#

they also hit a huge area, so you just need to predict very vaguely where someone is planning to move their units

#

spy bots and emp bombers are currently ez mode emp silos on the frontline, since they don't require that prediction at all

lilac jewel
#

They hit same area as tac nuke

#

And are 500metal + crapton of energy a shot

grim sapphire
#

they have >50% more range than a tac nuke as well

candid harbor
#

Emp missiling like, 2 afus is a net resource gain if I remember correctly

#

I'm pretty sure they have a larger aoe than tac nukes

#

nope it's actually smaller

grim sapphire
#

they have slightly smaller aoe than tac nuke, but tac nuke has significant damage dropoff from center while emp has none, and the tac nuke take substantially longer to actually fire

lilac jewel
#

Yeah, because emp does do damage

grim sapphire
#

emp damage, yes

lilac jewel
#

Does the unit die like if you hit it with tac nuke?

grim sapphire
#

if you're using it defensively, yeah

#

because you have units to kill something that can't fight back

lilac jewel
#

No, you miss then unless they stand still

#

I saw people dodge it one of few times I actually saw the thing

#

Spybot will do its job at 1/10th of the price and better

grim sapphire
#

you miss them even harder with tac nuke, because it's slower, and even if you hit, you'll only remove about half the health of a marauder, let alone anything more durable than a marauder

lilac jewel
#

They are same speed

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

I was testing it in test game.

#

No, emp silo is just terrible and should be removed for something else

grim sapphire
#

order them both to fire at the same spot at the same time. tac nuke takes an extra~2 seconds to open up the silo before firing

#

i was also testing in game

lilac jewel
#

They fly at same speed

#

Opening time is irrelevant, you already want to micro both to hit anything

grim sapphire
#

i thought emp can't hit anything that's moving? what's the point of microing them while the silo opens then?

lilac jewel
#

Go use this option unit, then come back

#

Unlike you I try out stuff before talking.
I used it several times.
It's extremely bad

#

Autocorrect saving me here

grim sapphire
#

why would i use it when i can use op ghost and emp bomber? i've had plenty of success using emp launcher in the past btw, during my stint where my winrate went up by 10% because i was lazy and switched to arm

high mango
#

2 EMP silos, with staggered fire, can lockdown a lolcannon, from pretty far away.
So it becomes a race of which side can push and kill the EMPs/lolcannon

lilac jewel
#

Yes, that's its only use case as was said like 10 times already in this thread

grim sapphire
#

this thread is about emp being too strong in general. the fact that 1 emp unit is generally outshined by other emp units doesn't change that

lilac jewel
#

Also, you need banked up shots as first only stuns for few sec

#

It's outshined by nonemp unit

grim sapphire
#

they both are effective in different situations, but emp silo has to compete with spybot and emp bomber for anything other than stunning lolcannon

lucid thistle
#

the big thing is the much bigger range

lilac jewel
#

Big thing is one unit murders everything

#

I hear a lots of talking about how OP it is but dont see you or anyone else make it very often.

grim sapphire
#

tac nuke usually will barely take half the hp off marauders, let alone anything else in t3

lilac jewel
#

It shreks T2 armies, porc

#

Nukes dont work well vs T3

grim sapphire
#

emp missiles work great vs t3, and tac nuke launchers have to be built in vulnerable positions if they want to be useful, again because of the range difference. and t2 armies can dodge tac nukes just as well as they can dodge emp.

#

i'm not trying to argue tac nukes are bad. they can be quite useful. but they are absolutely not a strict upgrade from emp silo

#

both have advantages and disadvantages

tame blade
# lilac jewel It shreks T2 armies, porc

after nerf it doesnt do much to armies, because its very hard to hit anyone with this delay and small AoE, so the tacnuke is niche too. on small maps with high porc like forge

#

i agree that before the nerf it was too strong, i also complained about it.

#

currently ia also probably easier to use and more often built than emp nuke.

#

it is one of the small number of things that core counterpart is probably better, though i wont compare them because they serve different ways.

#

you cant diaable antinuke or lolcannon with core tacnuke

patent zinc
#

remove emp from game op

mighty flame
#

I honestly wouldn't complain too much. #1130124530740908222 message

#

And add to that the "never push past a fighter wall EMP bomber"

#

The guy who is #1 on leaderboard has been saying for a year that EMP bomber is OP and no one cares xD

patent zinc
#

wdym

#

most good players spam emp bombers and pulsars while making 0 units and 5 afus queued

grim sapphire
#

*nobody outside of op lobby listens, and people who know it's op can't agree on how to fix emp in general

patent zinc
#

just make it die to veh flak lmao

grim sapphire
#

Roughly how much better does flak need to be vs emp bombers to make them fair? Is that the only change needed? What about other emp sources?

patent zinc
#

other emp sources are counterable, emp bombers arent

#

emp bombers dont care about AA, they get the emp off and most of the times survive it

#

and having such a unbalanced unit that totally changes gamestyle of the entire lobby around the guy making EMP bombers be limited to 1 faction is also a stupid thing

#

Shurikens are easily countered by commander and t1 aa bots

#

Spybots are countered by anti stealth and spam, you can also spread ur units to make it less effective

#

emp launchers are not easy to hit on moving units and u can always spread ur marauders to avoid it

#

but there is no counterplay against just 10 emp bombers

grim sapphire
#

So just emp bombers need nerf, specifically their durability. any particular amount the hp nerf should be?

candid harbor
#

make em cost 500m, reduce hp by 20%

grim sapphire
#

i'm no game dev, but i say, if most people think that's a good change and there aren't any strong arguments against it, tweak it. push it live. if people end up having problems with it, tweak further or roll it back

lilac jewel
#

They very much care about aa

#

It's just that noone makes long range aa, so you are free to bomb

#

Even if you just add flak, it's worse spybot

#

More expensive and 8s vs 35s stun

#

If emp bomber is removed, so should shuriken and arm air t1 and t2 buffed to match cor

lucid thistle
#

except that it's very easy to deal with long range AA by just baiting its shots with scouts, figs, or even just t1 bombers

grim sapphire
#

Platys, i'm sorry, and i may be wrong, but i don't think literally anyone else agrees with your stance on emp bombers

lilac jewel
#

There's like 5 ppl with 3 core mains at very least

#

Idk if that's everyone

#

Bring in arm air players to give their opinion

#

I know it's hard to find this dying breed,but you'll manage few above 20ts I'm sure

grim sapphire
#

Nearly everyone above 30 ts is an arm main, and plenty of them play air. Go into op lobby and ask the 14 arm mains playing at any given time if emp bombers are ruining matches

lilac jewel
#

I main highest ts lobbies

#

If I'm not air it's 90% cor vs cor

#

If you want to nerf emp bomber, start with shuriken.

candid harbor
#

statistically 2/3 of players over 30 os play arm

lilac jewel
#

Yes, and almost none play air

#

Usually lobby has 2-3 cor players

candid harbor
#

This is stupid

lilac jewel
#

Per team, one is air

#

Cor air is just much better.
T1 arm air has nothing good

#

T2 at least emp bomber and liche is situational

errant kestrel
#

emp bomber is strongest and most reliable emp in the game. It breaks dynamic of the t2 pushes as the ground aa units are unable to kill it before the bombs are dropped.
it's cheap af and spammable. It just stalls the game until emp resisstance thor's show up.
Anyone that things its not very strong needs to cook a bit more in the pot, or are just disingenuous.
This talk about muh dur armada vs core is pointless.
Except the few in between core addicts lobbies are mostly armada by a landslide. the only reason the games are not 16/16 armada is the fighter diff.

lilac jewel
#

When 90% of air play is core its not pointless to point out when you discuss nerfing only reason it's not 100%

lilac jewel
#

Also, arm emp comes online 14 min into the game unlike core from first few min, that's when you rush to t2, which you want or you are useless.
Bomber can't even kill a mex every time.

civic spoke
#

It is irrelevant that air player starts core, when they can get armada con, and go armada t2 air, as they usually do.

lilac jewel
#

If they want to trade op fighters and bombers for emp, sure

#

But usually don't do that.
Saw that maybe twice so far.
With malady or who that was (someone 60+) setting a trend it will crop up just because he did it.

civic spoke
#

If you start as cor air, and by min 20-22 (which is timing for marauder rush) don't have armada air for emp bombers you are shitty air player. That's how broken emp bombers are.

lilac jewel
#

You can stop marauders easily with shurikens tho

civic spoke
#

lol
statement from true armada player who never once build them

lilac jewel
#

Try making 30.
See how many marauders can you stop.

#

And there's no splitting they can do to minimilise damage

civic spoke
#

again, spoken like armada player who never played cor, 30 shurikens will stop maybe 5 marauders at best if they don't clamp for marauder aa

lucid thistle
#

i ran some tests once on shuriken vs marauder, and if the marauders only manage to kill 1 shuriken on approach each and the shurikens are perfectly microed, it takes i think it was 11 shurikens to 1-tap a marauder, 7 to 2-tap it

errant kestrel
#

to not make the encounter marauders vs shuriken's apm heavy, you can send gunship to soak up the initial marauder AA... or just send single emp bomber and be done with it.
the major problem of shuriken's is that they clump in air while doing their stun animation, so if u don't quickly stun all of them, 2-3 marauders will just blow them up.

lucid thistle
#

it's also very micro intensive, it's hard to get shurikens to stun a large group quickly

errant kestrel
#

yep it unfortunately is

civic spoke
#

give wasp emp secondary weapon and solve all problems emoplease

lilac jewel
#

Emp bombers are much more micro intensive as soon as marauders aren't clump in your vision.
They are bombers still.

civic spoke
#

completely irrelevant to your comparison with shurikens that just can't stop groups of marauders beyond 10

#

also lol at emp bombers being more micro intensive than shurikens, you just do A line and that usually hits 90% of things and then bombers are tanky enough to do a second pass unless enemy figs react

grim sapphire
#

Setting and forgetting an area to perma-stun while they tank large amounts of aa hits without going down = heavy micro

lilac jewel
#

They don't tank that much.
Reason they bomb flak isn't massive health pool.
They are bombers.
They drop payload way off in the distance

grim sapphire
#

...and because they have 30% more hp than the strategic bomber of the same price

tame blade
#

i think both shurikens and emp bombers are op, they just make obsolese using any gunships

#

unlike shurikens emp bombers can't be countered by 1 T1 AA bot tho

#

as per core vs arm air, its could be true, but core T2 has meme dragon while arms have emp bomber(ultimate antipush unit for 230m) and liche which is in many cases better than nuke.
im not aware of t2 fighter and bombers difference.
Imo both fighters are too op and too cheap, this gameplay when they oneshot each other and spammable for hundreds swarms is just bad.

grim sapphire
#

t2 arm fighters get destroyed by all other fighters if equal investment

tame blade
#

i also assume abductor is way better and funnier unit than core T2 trans, i've never seen T2 core adbuctions.

grim sapphire
tame blade
grim sapphire
#

they're still better than t1 at killing things like bombers a bit faster, but they're generally pretty bad

#

mixing t1 figs with t2 figs also has benefits, but there's no denying cor t2 has a major advantage in air vs air fights. it's just a lot more limited in what it can do to capitalize on that air supremacy

#

if emp bombers got deleted, people probably wouldn't go arm t2 air very often with current game balance. it might happen, but it would be very niche, only when planning to use abductors or liche and already winning air

#

i'd personally be open to arm t2 air getting a buff to compensate for large emp bomber nerf

civic spoke
#

Even without emp bombers, arm t2 has a liche as a unique rush to deal dmg or in late game to delete t3 units like thors. Cor t2 only has fighters. I realy want them to do something with dragon even without emp bomber nerf, just so cortex has a unique t2 air niche.

winter meadow
#

I thought we had a good idea a while back ?

#

just make fat heavy units EMP resistant, make fast light units EMP vulnerable

tame blade
#

i think its already working like this, but the difference bbetween emping blitz and mammoth is not THAT significant.
Especially considering blitzes are much more spammable.

winter meadow
#

ok then make it more mass dependent 🙂

grim sapphire
#

Some high level players feel emp launcher and spybots should be their current strength. Emp bomber targeted nerf would be the most universally liked, excluding platys

lilac jewel
#

Noone thinks spybots should stay

#

Those should be brought down to 10s emp at most

#

35s is wayyyyyyy too long

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

You need 5 emp bomber passes to match that btw

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

Spybot is least counterable, emp bomber most.
Have long range aa and radar bot.
Now it dies every time even if you aren't looking

#

Choice is a core main lob, he has no idea how to use emp bomber

mighty flame
#

Just remove it altogether please - SURPRISE YOUR ARMY IS USELESS NOW! glhf. Not a fun mechanic to have in the game.

lilac jewel
#

Or how to defend against it apparently

#

Also, liches are much less efficient then normal bombers

#

For the person up there saying arm air op because liche

#

It's unit you use once you have absolute eco advantage or you rush out quick and hope enemy air was afk

tame blade
lilac jewel
#

Bots have way more utility

#

Veh have way more punch.

tame blade
lilac jewel
#

Core antinuke should be a bot too imo, idk why that's one thing shifted to veh

tame blade
#

while emp bomber is only by figs

lilac jewel
#

Tracker won't make your units shoot spybot

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

You have to do it manually for each, only spam works if you can afford it

winter meadow
#

I suggested to give the Cortex anti nuke vehicle a mobile anti-EMP bubble too 😄 crazy idea I know

lilac jewel
#

Make separate veh for that and sounds OK tho?

#

I would be for, if arm gets it too

#

Also, ppl rage when their army gets emp bombed even if nothing shoots at it.
That's funny af to watch on stream

#

I'm also fine with emp bomber nerfs btw.
If they come with arm buffs to bring it on par with core and same level of shuriken nerf

grim sapphire
#

can we just give arm t2 figs a buff to bring them closer to cor's and pair that with emp bomber nerf? otherwise we're just going to keep arguing in circles

lilac jewel
#

Bombers too

#

Both t1 and t2 are much weaker

#

Also shuriken nerf as that's core equivalent.
No less fun having your whole army die 5 min in due to few random planes if it can't shoot up

tame blade
tame blade
#

emp should only be good vs leaks and fast raiders imo, not permastun armies 20x in cost

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

T2 is more expensive, but also much better.

grim sapphire
#

we can go back and forth on this all day and neither of our opinions will change.

#

nor will anyone else's

lilac jewel
#

Core AIr being much more powerful is an established consensus. Arm has EMP bomber to play catchup. Its a core unit keeping it from being 100% useless

#

And as Niku said, gunships need buff. Arm has cool gunships, just not worth the price

grim sapphire
#

start with fig buff and emp nerf, see what happens to meta, go from there. maybe arm air still needs buffs. we won't know until first set of changes

lilac jewel
#

Just ate air lab, but still a cor

image.png
#

First lobby I joined today

#

Both made advanced cor lab too

#

Interesting

tame blade
#

everyone else went arm for all other op units 🙂

lavish mantle
#

I mean u can cherry pick examples as much as you want but I'll be the first to admit that 95% of the playerbase even at 40+ plays suboptimally in terms of lab sharing / teamwork etc.

If you look at the actual air experts like malady, he usually goes t1 core air and t2 arm air for the respective EMP units independent of which faction he starts as. The fighter difference may be real but honestly the biggest difference in the labs is whether u have access to EMP or not. Imo all bombers/liches are just "win more" mechanics that depend on eco diff while EMP is a necessity in all game states.

patent zinc
#

you can make a t1 push against shurikens, all it requires is either ur commander to be with the army or make a botlab with commander to make 4 aa bots, while there is no way of countering emp bombers as non air player

#

Spybots are basically unusable when t1 spam starts and are too immobile to react to raids on other playerbases

#

before spam starts, spybots are quite broken and have too huge of a emp duration while their main role is providing LoS

lilac jewel
#

I'm not cherry picking anything?

#

Most players just go with what they have.
Everyone starts core because arm is utter garbage in t1

#

Then there's option to get another con.
But you are talking about removing only reason to go for any arm play at all.

#

I stated under which conditions emp bomber nerfs would be acceptable already

#

Nerf shurikens same amount, buff the arm bombers and fighs to be on same level with core

#

Then you can nerf both emp options to the ground for all I care

civic spoke
#

Arm players when their faction is 5% weaker per unit bases. Cortex should really be deleted from game then because the disparity between nonair cortex and nonair arm is much bigger than between air t1 labs. And there is still reasons to go t1 air armada over cortex in form of cheaper winds, when airplanes are very e hungry, and shurikens are countered by every whistler spammer on map.

grim sapphire
#

none of us here even can give "conditions" like it's some hostage scenario, so it's a moot point. regardless, i'm personally fine with at least some amount of nerf to shuris at same time as emp bomber nerf. even though they're a lot more counter-able than emp bombers, they get to be nuisances far earlier in the game, and we all know they can be a pain to deal with in various situations

lucid thistle
#

i like how everybody is attacking points that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread:

  1. a weakness in 1 lab doesn't justify another being stronger, both need adjustment so they are more on par with each other while maintaining faction identity and uniqueness
  2. arm figs and bombers being worse doesn't justify EMP bombers being as powerful as they are , both need adjustment
#

EMP bombers are extremely strong --> they need to be toned down, arm air being weaker than cor air is a topic for another thread as that also needs to be worked on

errant kestrel
#

can u stop being reasonable please /s

lucid thistle
#

shurikens are also strong, so they also need some adjustment

civic spoke
#

The question is what kind of adjustment you are proposing for shurikens. They are already made from paper, have a bad move pattern that leads to clamping and require micro to get emp on all enemy units fast and keep it. They are only op when you really have 0 aa on ground which is again, we are in era of veh starts and whistler spam.
For emp bombers, it seems simple enough that they should get hp reduction due to how tanky they are, and maybe metal cost increase.

lucid thistle
#

shurikens could get there movement when attacking changed to become more similar to gunships so that they don't sometimes just hover in 1 place, also makes them better at spreading out their attacks

#

could give them some targetting prioritization to target non stunned targets over stunned targets

grim sapphire
#

imo 20% of the emp "dps" could be chopped off both and nobody would notice the difference in 99% of matches, but beyond that probably price increases for both, maybe a bit of a speed nerf to both (would also make emp bomber need to get closer to drop its bombs as a side effect), and some amount of hp nerf for emp bomber, because of already stated reasons

lucid thistle
#

and then increase their price

grim sapphire
#

There's an argument to be made about skill expression in microing your shuris to split efficiently, but some form of that argument happens daily, so /shrug

lucid thistle
#

if shurikens were to get nerfed then that level of micro would not be worth it most of the time

grim sapphire
#

Depends how hard they get nerfed. Probably means they'd only be worth making if you're going to properly micro

lucid thistle
#

i don't like skill expression in the form of "who's better at drag selecting a specific number of shurikens and right clicking a specific enemy quickly"

civic spoke
#

I personally don't mind the micro part of it, just yes, if you are going to nerf then a better default behaviour would be welcome. Also the biggest problem is that for example if you have 8 shurikens to stun 5 medtanks, you really need to focus fire all 8 on one tank, then detach one shuriken to keep emping the stunned tank, then focus fire 7 shurikens on another tank, and so on

lilac jewel
grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

Cor players talking like EMP bombers are OP but shurikes stopping 10 bulls with 10 shurikes is perfectly normal. They are both very OP

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

So any nerf to EMP bomber has to come with shuriken and cor air nerf to bring both factions together

lilac jewel
#

Anyone can be that, yes

civic spoke
#

God stop, Platy, you really don't know what you are talking about. You can't physically stop 10 bulls with 10 shurikens.

lilac jewel
#

You can. It takes 1 to keep the EMP up

civic spoke
#

Yes yes, go open skirmish and try to do it yourself

grim sapphire
#

Again, it doesn't matter because we're being told that we need to talk about nerfing shuris while we're in the middle of talking about nerfing shuris. It's just causing unproductive arguments which always go nowhere.

lilac jewel
#

Uh, oh, as if one of us is tgalking from his behind

#

And it aint me. Play the game. thx

#

Ye, shuris and fighs + bombers, especially T1

civic spoke
#

peepoclown and how many seconds it took you when the bulls were even not moving
i could do same with 2 emp bombers volleys, that are much faster

grim sapphire
#

I can feel my brain cells dying. Good night everyone

lilac jewel
#

3x the energy

image.png
#

Takes 11 shots. 10 if you one shot it. So, for about half a price of a bull, you can stun it permanently. Or make 20, and stun 10 permanently in few seconds

#

And unless they clump, you arent getting value with EMP bombers. Not nearly the value T1 shurikens give

#

The 2 emp bombers are struggling holding down even the neat line I had the bulls form

civic spoke
#

Now add 1 aa vehicle and look at "value" shurikens give vs emp bombers. Again, shurikens were bigger problem before comupdate, where bot openings were much more common. And yet, good players like Flash easily countered them by just prebuilding 2-4 aa bots and keeping them with their units.

lilac jewel
#

Took 5 shots to kill shuriken lol

#

Didnt know mobile flak has so low aoe...

#

Not exactly ideal micro as they approach one by one but indicative of real game

#

One lives~

image.png
#

Shurikes beating flak cost efficiently XD

civic spoke
#

In the real game you would approach in group, and also don't see where aa vehicle is way before vision lol.

lilac jewel
#

Maybe dont engage blindly idk

#

As you can see shurikes beat flak metal for metal

lucid thistle
#

and EMP bombers beat flak metal for metal as well?

civic spoke
#

So do emp bombers. With way less micro. What's your point in the end? If you just repeating that shurikens need nerf, then sure, I would even agree, if you actually propose some specific nerf, instead of just parroting it. And obviously I don't disagree about your other point of making t2 arm fighters better.

lucid thistle
# lilac jewel

if this is how we were doing it, i could say that 1 banshee can kill 10 bulls, so banshee OP

lilac jewel
#

EMP bomber can't kill anything either

lucid thistle
#

EMP bomber can stun them faster

lilac jewel
#

And banshee won't take 14s to kill a bull

lucid thistle
#

and depending on how units are clumped can stun a way larger number

lilac jewel
#

Yes, it's t2 and much more expensive

lucid thistle
#

even for the same price it's much more effective in most situations

lilac jewel
#

Still situational which is better.

lucid thistle
#

the only situation where shurikens would perform better would be if the enemy units are very spread out which they usually aren't in an actual game

lilac jewel
#

Hardly.
With emp bombers you often find yourself with either no targets worth risking it or no ally having army to utilise emp

lucid thistle
#

but again, we've all agreed that they both need a nerf

lilac jewel
#

Shurikens are much more surgical

lucid thistle
#

EMP bomber can actually hit things covered by proper AA and survive

lilac jewel
#

Try using them.
Very often they actually are too spread out

lucid thistle
#

and you showing that shurikens can beat flak is also you playing to the strengths of shurikens and the weaknesses of flak, if you were to replace the flak with lets say an equivalent cost in thistles/nettles or t1 AA bots then that would look very different

lilac jewel
#

I'm also for emp nerf btw.
I just won't have ppl bashing bomber while defending shuriken and all other cor air.

#

Like Niku did before. Shurikens are often better and come up much earlier.

lucid thistle
#

nobody is defending other cor air, there are other threads discussing buffing arm air (which you can look at and see that i'm also advocating for)

lilac jewel
#

Ye, but those went nowhere and died

lucid thistle
#

currently this thread also seems to be going nowhere

lilac jewel
#

So if I won't do it here, we will get emp nerf and that's it

#

10s emp on spybots, 2x price for both emp units. That would be nice change

#

If you make protection against air too easy, you'll make air invalid.
Just make it have a price tax.

#

500 metal to stun army for 10s if it dies while doing so is a good balance imo

#

Also at very least buff gunships or something to not delete arm air

errant kestrel
#

jesus christ someone is mad.
i recommend this methoid truly, platys is unreasonable since cor t3 gantry discussion.

civic spoke
#

op
doubling metal cost is fine, but having 25k e cost for 10 second stun on spy bot is probably too much

lilac jewel
#

Morli, your opinion is invalid, you whine in every armada thread

#

You would have 39k price tag on emp bomber

#

That's not even fusion era eco, that's afus

errant kestrel
lilac jewel
#

You are the guy whining I never use core gantry like 10min after you spectated game I was using it lol.

#

I can't help you if you are detached from reality Morli. EMP does need nerf. But it has to take into consideration situation we have right now.

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

EMP duration of 35s is too big. I know its meant to be for antinukes but if you have any high dps unit like fiend or Lightning thingy for arm, you can erase whole army in those 35s

#

It feels super flustrating and has no counter early on. Could maybe even bring the bots closer together price wise then as arm bot lab doesnt have stuff like fiends, which is reason their emp bots are more expensive imo

#

Maybe it would be possible to stun buildings only for longer? 4x EMP durration modifier for buildings if engine allows it and 10s EMP on spybot

lucid thistle
civic spoke
#

The spy duration of 22/35 seconds is a lot, but to say that there is no counter to emp bots is just wrong. Counter intelligence building costs as a one whole sniper, and then you just bump your welders or other frontline units into all spybots. It just discourages of running braindead skirmish ball of units.

lilac jewel
#

You cant afford to make one in hound/early T2 era in general

civic spoke
#

Bruh, it costs less than 2 hounds

lilac jewel
#

And even if you do, your units will let them walk to you if you dont look

lucid thistle
#

spybots are very expensive energy wise, it's why they don't just end games in early t2

lilac jewel
#

Or just dont hit it as you need high aoe units

civic spoke
#

Again, just walk in your leftover t1 units, or welders or anything if someone builds spybots in early t2. Which they don't because they are too expensive in e for that. Spybots are generally post fusion unit. Early hounds are not

lilac jewel
#

Your first encounter with spybot is usually 10 EMPed units and 4k metal down the drain

civic spoke
#

Oh no, I can't just build 10 hounds and bully opponent for 5 minutes straight

lilac jewel
#

Ye ye, your 10 sheldons are just as juicy

#

And what I reguraly hunt with hound spybot. Those 30+ts lobs still didnt learn how to build countermeasures

grim sapphire
#

why are we arguing when we all agree spybot nerf = good

lilac jewel
#

Especially if I let you push in. Good luck building them as you go

#

10s EMP is good spot imo

#

Its enough to capitalise on but doesnt feel as terrible

civic spoke
#

Sure, just don't change cost then

lilac jewel
#

Make cor ones cheaper

grim sapphire
#

10-15 s emp duration, 10-20% less emp radius, same cost for now, see where it goes

#

i'm fine with arm's being cheaper than cor's but it would probably be good for the price gap to be a bit smaller

lilac jewel
#

You cant give cor bot lab as much emp because they have wayyyyy too much DPS in fiends. But if durration was reduced across the board, reducing cost would be ok

turbid pebble
#

if you nerf emp bots it will just make the last few people not playing arm veh to switch

#

kinda weird asking for bots to get nerf when arm veh is so dominant

grim sapphire
#

arm veh is primarily dominant because of t1, even though arm t2 vehs are also quite strong

lucid thistle
#

cor t2 bots are competitive with arm t2 vics

#

but the t2 phase is rather short as t3 show up soon after

#

and the presence of strong EMP options in the t2 phase stops most t2 pushes from being able to win the game

turbid pebble
#

veh t2 arm are the strongest by far, consul give you access to hounds, arty are cheap and the strongest, the only thing missing is a emp bot

lilac jewel
#

Someone should go check core veh and compare them to arm 1 by one to see why noone uses them in T1

#

Core bots give you access to fiends

#

You can just make lab, make worker, engi and reclaim lab

#

Now theres extra 15 fiends on the field

lucid thistle
#

one thing i did notice previously when looking at the bp spreadsheet was that cor cons are worse across the board, costing more metal for the same amount of bp, which is made even worse by the fact that most cor stuff has a higher bp cost

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

Pounders are very strong also

#

Dont overkill nearly as much. If infantry gets into their range they murder it much harder

grim sapphire
grim sapphire
lucid thistle
#

you still end up needing to spend a lot more on cons than otherwise

lilac jewel
#

Buff cons then?

grim sapphire
lilac jewel
#

Still would be nice to check units 1 by 1 with equivalents

turbid pebble
#

pounders can't kill the commander they are ez to dgun while janus can hunt the commander and with good micro can't get dgun

lilac jewel
#

Its not mobile. If it was... Yeah, that would be scary af

lilac jewel
lucid thistle
#

pounder has its own usecase as a defensive unit

grim sapphire
#

basically all of them, that's the difference

lucid thistle