#Fighters are not the best AA In the game

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drifting cove
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Screamers and Flak are both better than fighters in damage, range, And technically Hp as well, The only thing is maneuverability. In fact, the strategy im seeing more than anything is just multifactory spamming t1 fighters instead of t2 and just overwhelming with sheer numbers.

I propose that t2 fighters be able to load 1 screamer, but the range is shortened considerably compared to ground Screamers.
Or alternatively, give t2 fighters flak cannons instead of its current weapon to increase its AOE dmg

Or just make a separate Unit for both cortex and arm that has this. We have multiple gunships for arm and core, Multiple bombers for armada as well.
For an air lab, only having one fighter seems a bit absurd when you consider how many anti air options are on the ground. When you consider that Ground AA does its role way better than A fighter screen does, fighters seem like just filler units used to divert aa instead of focusing on the bombers.

Buff t2 fighters. or add another fighter class unit that provites more utility

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Yet ironically, Nobody makes AA, especially in 8v8, The air player is expected to carry, which is absurd, its not about skill with the unit, its just about who can make more and just throw them at the enemies wall while you try to slip some bombers past.

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This problem even occurs in 8v8 high ts lobbies, Screamers are objectively better than all air units yet some people get seriously defensive about using them, claiming that its the air players responsibility for air, and if you spend all your time making fighters, youre not doing bombing runs, and if an enemy succeds in a bombing run youll never hear the end of it

theres a misconception that an air unit is the best anti air counter and this just statistically isnt true

grave fern
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the cost of making static AA is really high since you need to multiply the amount of AA you make to cover for the entire team. Yes, making AA to protect yourself is very cost effective, but when you consider that everyone in the team needs to make the same amount to cover against the same number of bombers, the cost adds up.
Secondly, you talk about people making t1 air rather than t2 air to overwhelm with numbers, but that's just because arm t2 air is objectively the worst AA they have access to when it comes to fighting figs. with equal metal value, arm t2 figs will lose against any other fig in the game, while cor t2 figs win those engagements. as a result, it is better to just make cor t2 figs and arm t1 figs (or seaplane figsas those are the best figs arm has access to)

hardy spruce
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For the price of that one screamer, I can have 16 fighters, that can be used anywhere on the map, defensively or offensively. Vs. the screamer that gets at most 5 shots secluded to a relatively small corner of the map and is generally only good for defensive use.

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Flak is quite good, but it's limited in range and expensive. It needs to be forward actually protect your tech.

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Figs are just the more cost efficient route to protecting your team. 3 screams or 47 figs? One of thse is going to do a way better job at protecting the team, and efficiency can go a long way to winning the game.

drifting cove
hardy spruce
drifting cove
keen charm
# drifting cove id honestly take the 3 screamers over the figs, but maybe thats just me. Idk, m...

You say you want 3 screamers until 15 figs eat all the screamer shots and 10 bombers wipe out your entire eco

From what I heard, fighters used to have attack ground, but that resulted in mono fighter gameplay with 0 bombers built.

Fighters bring your AA to the whole map and can double as screening units for bombers, generally they cannot be EMP'd or bombed or tacnuked or what have you, and if you want to get a tactical edge over an opponent's air you need to work with ground forces to bait enemy fighters into an AA screen. Or build one yourself.

Mobile flak is just about the only thing I'd consider replacing fighters with.

unkempt sphinx
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Personally, I have taken to using screamers as a part of my air defense as an Air player. They are far superior to fighters when used as a functional part of your air wall. As the air player I am now sending a few cons out to make 2 Screamers near the front line. This allows me to easily win any air exchange near them even with roughly half the number of fighters. I will simply make 2-4 gunships and go aggressive with them in my Screamers range and then as the enemy moves thier fighter wave in I run away with the gunships, and send in my fighters to hit thiers. What happens is the gunships certinaly die, but timed well, my fighter wave is hitting thier fighter wave as its turning. The screamers are taking down entire clumps of fighters as they try to turn and run and then my fighters have an easy mop up.

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Once this has occured I can simply Spam t2 fighters and generally keep the enemy air player pinned down, unless or until they build long range AA of thier own.

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If they do not respond with thier own long range AA I can easily use gunships in low numbers 4-10 as an effective offense. While simply spamming fighters into the air players base largely able to ignore any losses.

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Honestly I have nearly stopped making T1 fighters at all. I make 4-7 early to stop a bombing run then hard eco to t2. The enemy air player is busy making 100 T1 fighters, that serve no purpose and Im on my second Afus and able to out produce them with T2 fighters after I depelete thier fighter wall with the screamers.

vital glen
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I think that dynamic you are describing, with screamers effectively backing up fighters, is pretty important in ensuring that the game doesn't just spiral into the side who gets the first fighter advantage dominating the air forever. And also keeping the ground frontlines a bit under control. I don't think a game where spamming fighters forever from minute one is required is desirable.

unkempt sphinx
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I would agree, I kind of offered this as a counter point. The general line when telling people how to play air is "just make fighters" and I find that incredibly flawed, resorting to T1 Fighter spam is really just that, a last resort.

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Personaly I like to be the agressor in the air, as most people respond by doing nothing but making tons and tons of fighters.

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That removes them as a threat to my team and it allows me to choose where I want to fight, while also allowing me to focus on units that can defend my lanes

tawdry lotus
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This has been one aspect of the com drop meta that I've found very frustrating. Now one person needs to start air, but most people don't understand the important mechanics of air ie why you have fighters. They're for offense and defense and map control, not just defending against com drops. I see people building arm t1 gunships for defense for gods sake lmao

vital glen
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Ah yea, I was "agreeing" with you too (in so much as your scenario was a statement of opinon), sorry is that was unclear.

tawdry lotus
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But imo fighters are the best aa, but not because they're the best air defense, but because they let you have air superiority over the map

unkempt sphinx
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heh I was afirad I was unclear lol

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5-6 T1 gunships might be a solid choice to clean up leaks with, but going beyond that is just hurting yourself

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I've been going pretty heavy on the gunships recently, and have been very effective defending with them and putting in Eco damage as well. A few well placed static AA towers pretty much even it out, even though they may have 2-3x more fighters than you, they are providing nothing, while 4-6 gunships can save a team mate and any attempt at shooting them down pretty much means them loosing all thier fighters in your terriroty.

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AA players needs to start considering providing static AA to the team as part of thier job imo

tawdry lotus
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A lot of people seem to think playing air is just fighters and eco

unkempt sphinx
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I've been going - 4-10 T1 fighters, rushing T2 into a 4-2 Fighter gunship split, building some AA on the front and baiting to fight there, then from that mass producing T1 cons and making an LRPC

tawdry lotus
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I've mostly been playing core for shurikens lately as a primarily front player, because my air players decide that arm t1 gunships are sufficient defense so I have to stop leaks for them

unkempt sphinx
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Im so glad when people make mass T1 gunships lol.....makes them so easy to out scale

upper pilot
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I do a combination of t1 fighters, shredders and screamers

unkempt sphinx
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Where are you getting ur flak trucks from

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you pivot off and make a t2 veh lab?

keen charm
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once the game gets late it's a pretty fun option

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transport the flak trucks to the front to cover your gunships

upper pilot
# unkempt sphinx Where are you getting ur flak trucks from

Yea. I go like this.

T1 bot lab --> build bots to help build base

Reclaim lab.

Build t1 air lab ---> build a couple t1 con air units along with a dozen fighters.

Reclaim lab.

Build t1 vehicle lab. Build 1 con truck to get t2 lab.

Reclaim t1 con bots when no longer needed.

Poop out combat engies and shredders to start placing AA all over the map.

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Reclaim t1 vehicle lab

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And once my economy is semi stable, I rebuild the air lab and spam out fighters as "support

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I'm still messing with the build order. But I might be able to completely forgo air as a step here, just jump into t2 vehicle anti air

unkempt sphinx
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How do you project your air power with the veh AA tho

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they are short range

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I get they make great defense, but you pretty much concede any offense with them.

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I find I am often breaking front line stale mates with gunships, no way to get flak support in that case

delicate schooner
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You park a handful of gunships above your flak, and dare the enemy fighter screen to come in and clear them out

unkempt sphinx
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why would I attack your gunships just chillin and doing nothing tho?

upper pilot
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I'm the logi bro of the team

unkempt sphinx
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Yeah fair enough that was what I was picturing in that case then

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wish more people did that kind of thing rather than make 100 T1 fighters and afk

upper pilot
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When it comes tp shredder placement. You place them in the lanes, and around your back eco players first to protect their fusion.

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A couple bombs dropped on a front line aren't as devastating as losing two afus's and half a base

keen charm
vital glen
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Every air player's least favourite meal is "Flak Truck Surprise"

upper pilot
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More players need to adopt a logistic role. Fortifying your side with defenses, spamming junos or EMP/tac nukes can be just as effective as unit spamming

stiff zodiac
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What if a bunch of torpedo bombers are wrecking your allied navy? Fighters good for that.

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Their niche seems to be limited to large maps, super early game team air defense, and super late game when air can add more dps density to your composition

grave fern
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you need fighters for those

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naval AA can't deal with properly microed torp bombers

split imp
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The range on torpedo bombers is insane indeed

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you can launch torpedoes from afar and get away before in range of the dragonslayer

leaden citrus
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I think this game demonstraits the absolute metal burn which is the current fig-AA meta
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=e84cc064fd12d90e5b325173ce12481d

Strait, 50 minutes, the 4 air players (2 on each team) constantly throw their entire fig walls into each other and get basically zero value and do almost nothing else all game. By the end they are spending around 100metal/s each just on fig wall replacements

I really think either of them building tactically with t2 AA would have given them the edge with a much smaller investment into figs and enabled more diverse plays

BAR Replays

Replays of Battles once fought!

lyric musk
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Yup.

eager elbow
hollow sierra
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everything has its strengths and weaknesses

eager elbow
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If your team makes aa, you have home advantage and this whole throwing air screens on each other is negated fully

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Most noobs can't make aa even when they get bombed third time tho

hollow sierra
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frankly, if your teammates dont build AA appropriate to the games time thats their fault for not adapting.

eager elbow
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Well, it's issue with non air players.
They don't think about air and if you loose because enemy team has ground aa across while front while yours has none?

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Your fault.

hollow sierra
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I can understand backliners not building within the first 10-15 minutes on linear maps like gitters or ice scream because there is literally someone infront of you - frontline is frontline, right? After 20 minutes though everyone should have more than a nettle and a sam XD

eager elbow
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Nettles are enough honestly

hollow sierra
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at 20?

eager elbow
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You just need enemy to take extra damage when attacking into you

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Your fig screen eats the difference

hollow sierra
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2 sams/bomb resistant AA will cost a lot more but has much better range and will make a difference when the raid comes

eager elbow
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You can adapt to low aa numbers with how you move to actively deplete enemy air

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Just be where stuff like whistler's or jags are

hollow sierra
# eager elbow Your fig screen eats the difference

one thing i never quite understand is that if enemy air attacks, they have fighters and bombers - just get fighters and win. an air player should only be bombing if hes confident that it will get through

eager elbow
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It will take potshots, your goal is just to trade well, which, if you don't play cor is very hard

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Yupp, if I get my fights above enemy air base, I'm so bombing all t2 and fusions on the map

hollow sierra
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i would like to see a large air vessel (bigger than a dragon) like an experimental capable of soft AA

eager elbow
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Until then as arm?
lol, good luck.
Sit back and micro 3 emp bombers

stiff zodiac
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flak is love. flak is life

stiff zodiac
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Does anyone use SAMs much? They seem like the worst option, next to basic aa. But maybe I'm just too nooby lol

grave fern
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they have longer range than basic AA

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and are cheaper than the eradicator

stiff zodiac
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Less dps efficient for cost than both. Marginally more range than basic aa. Harder to kill, I guess.

stiff zodiac
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tbh, if they waste their bombing run to focus my t1 basic aa, I'm content.

grave fern
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does it have EMP resistance?

bold jay
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I think one Sam is good for countering a surprise liche/dragon or stopping scouting runs before they get in range, but otherwise T2 flak is king

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Maybe on a frontline/backline map like strait or glitters you want flak on front to kill the fighter screen and then a SAM on back to kill the bombers that make it through, but if you build the SAMs too close to each other they waste shots shooting the same target and over killing it

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If you can get a SAM built on the front in range of the enemy fighter wall that can also be good to slowly knock down their fighter numbers or force them to retreat and let you bomb/emp enemy frontline positions easier

eager elbow
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Liche will ignore most aa that's not t2

bold jay
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By SAM I mean Mercury or Screamer

grave fern
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there is an actual SAM though, the t1 cor AA

rain plover
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chainsaws seem ... underwhelming? is there an optimal use for them?

manic ocean
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It is up to the player to re target their turrets to prevent wasteful overkilling.

bold jay
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Chainsaws are super high single target DPS but it overkills too much right? Good against dragons and T2 bombers I guess? By that time you may as well just build T2 AA though

hardy spruce
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They slap liches pretty well

rain plover
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would long range antiair not be better? twice price yes but vastly higher range

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I imagine they'd be good if the liche was obliging enough to path nearby without any other targets to distract

stiff zodiac
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what if you made SAM damage more front-loaded, rapid fire with a bit of cooldown afterwards, like a mini-catapult. More niche for killing t2 bombers fast upfront, not when the bombers are almost done passing over.

tawdry lotus
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That's how the ferret works and the ferret is far worse than sam

stiff zodiac
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eh. im not a filthy armada

tawdry lotus
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ferret is far worse for reasons other than its damage being frontloaded too tbf

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actually I thought chainsaw and eradicator had frontloaded damage too...

hollow sierra
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build proportionally to the enemy air player

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dont know what he has? build scouts or more

stark vigil
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I think having this thread complain about t2 fighters being too weak and this other #1117539026526802040 thread complaining about t2 fighters being too strong is a good indication that they're probably just fine.

stiff zodiac
# tawdry lotus actually I thought chainsaw and eradicator had frontloaded damage too...

I know eradicator does, it's sorta front load. 3 Rockets in kinda quick succession, then a short cooldown. Wouldn't notice it was frontloaded unless paying attention. I was thinking even more front loaded, like 8 rockets nearly at once, give them just enough damage to kill a t2 bomber before it gets too deep.

Currently I don't think either SAM or Ferret actually kill a liche, lol.