#Reduce missile truck ground damage

1 messages ¡ Page 2 of 1

little plaza
#

reclaim your t1 army and use it to build maws/claws surrounded by walls

lament salmon
#

That already a loss

little plaza
#

thats what i learned to do on the canyon spawn on all that glitters

cedar fossil
karmic hound
#

ive won the canyon lane in koom by doing that a few times

lament salmon
#

I never fully wall off, if you make layers of walls or tons of tiny gaps, the pathing just goes to shit for the units

#

Well what I'm getting from a lot of this though is that the solution to the issue lies outside Units of its tier. It reqquires some type of static or higher tier to counter. That sounds like its pressing into "OP" conditionals by definition.

frosty kestrel
#

those are the players i most communicate with regarding hitbox changes
they knew this change about 3 or so months ago

#

i use high level players as my filter regarding hitbox changes for a number of reasons

#

however note that not all of them knew about this change
and the way its done requires that they pay attention

lament salmon
#

Can't believe we are just gunna let that moist communication one pass by pepehmm

jovial crypt
#

Nah, everyone's just used to drivver's autocorrect being a source of the best typos in the community

frosty kestrel
#

and i was even typing with a keyboard

#

i can actually blame the fact that my works has stupidly bad keyboards

#

at home i use a g815

foggy timber
#

Brah Missile trucks ground damage is already low

thin cosmos
#

Yeah

#

Only lobs die to them.
Held 3 players going whistler's on poverty map with like 5 of them total on out side

#

Arty good at denying.
When we got pushed by t1 arty tower, we just teched up.

#

Then our backline died to nukes

civic skiff
#

xd "only lobs die to them"

#

I think your somewhat right maybe, given those with higher ratings tend to stick to strategies they've developed

#

for example, rocket bot / plasma bot spam isn't very viable of flat maps anymore

thin cosmos
#

Rocket bot spam is bad mainly because ppl don't porc nearly as much

cedar fossil
#

16 whistlers burning down my HLT being repaired by commander+2 rez bots+1 nano+1 bot con (980 buildpower)
I had a misplay, should have pushed them back with the thugs I had offscreen to give more time for repair, but the maw in front held off some tanks+janus from just rushing the HLT

image.png
thin cosmos
#

There's no reason to if comm can walk trough 4 llts & kill them all solo

civic skiff
#

oh yeah unit xp

thin cosmos
#

Hlts have stupidly high build points

civic skiff
#

We can't forget unit xp exists, look at the ranks on those missile trucks

thin cosmos
#

For what they are especially. They need buff

cedar fossil
#

-15% reload on those high XP trucks

civic skiff
#

I count 15 ">" ranks total, so that'd be quite a bit of extra dps

frosty kestrel
#

personally i think t1 walls need a height increase

#

on both the model and hitbox

civic skiff
#

in TA they had that

thin cosmos
#

Ye

civic skiff
#

I'd be fine with buffing walls

thin cosmos
#

They don't block most things. Just pathing

cedar fossil
#

Walls are great for covering units. They just suck at covering tall tower defenses

civic skiff
#

would LLT be a little too OP if DT's were high enough to prevent rocket bots, missile trucks or pawns/grunts from hitting them?

frosty kestrel
#

i doubt

#

i am open to lowering the aimpostion of the HLT so that walls matter on level ground

cedar fossil
#

Walls become a micro tax for porcing if they block shots vs towers, I would think

frosty kestrel
#

aimpositions are truely the most infectious things to balance

cedar fossil
#

Those trucks with the -15% reload had 0.15 XP, which meant they damaged x4.5 their own resource cost.
So it had dealt enough damage to kill 4.5 whistlers.

crimson badger
#

Fido seems to be bad counter unless you have mass of it, 2x truck for same price as single dog have better stats dps, hp and accuracy and crucially better LOS

onyx canopy
#

Honestly. Whistlers are just so great at chipping at thing from safety. You can just chew up all turrets except HLTs from a relative safety.
I feels almost like playing against massed arty. They are really bad if enemy has to move out of their porc

civic skiff
#

fido has +50 range, more speed, is a kbot, far superior alpha strike

#

Fide can weave in and out of whistler range unloading plasma into the whistler ball

onyx canopy
#

Iirc any durable burst unit can smoke whistlers out of position.

civic skiff
#

if you really want to shit on whistler T2 veh arty absolutely annihilates them

onyx canopy
#

Honestly. HLT turret absolutely outranges whistlers and lack of damage falloff means they just get chewed up if they try to get close.

livid sparrow
#

Missile trucks have never been exclusively anti air. Find another easy solution like not making the fire through or over one another

#

Don’t remove their ground firing capability

#

I have no problem with missile truck spam. Just don’t make it the only meta

#

It’s good to have several options for ground combat

spiral roost
onyx canopy
#

Tbh just dont lose units to long-range chip damage.

#

Put HLT as a "stop harrasing me bro" sign and build up big ball of stouts.

tight swallow
#

but i agree in principal, the problem I see with the Whistler ball is the player on the defending end having enough time to mass a reasonable counter force to push through it while preventing its slow push to your base

onyx canopy
#

You can't just stop ball of 10 whistlers the moment you see it. You need to scout it and then prepare before they attack

#

You can't just do anything in 5 seconds when 8 stouts raid you through a hole in your porc, same with whistlers

tight swallow
#

For sure, I liked this play especially mentioned a little bit here in this thread

[20:42]Itanthias: One of the meaner strategies I have faced is
enemy opens missile trucks.
I porc up, stop them from pushing.
I start to tech up, but I instead get ~3000 metal of T1 tanks knocking at my front door, the missile trucks were a feint

wispy hamlet
#

also side note

#

PSA: bots into missle truck is impossible in lane maps

#

kk

sly ruin
#

I havent even seen flash be able to counter them

#

and he is pretty damn good with bots

pulsar bay
mild oasis
sly ruin
mild oasis
#

once you got T2 mousers you destroy whistlers

tight swallow
#

The "Whistler window" is narrow

sly ruin
#

getting to T2 while having to constantly invest into more army as you are trading very inefficiently is a big task

tight swallow
#

They can't push into heavy units, arty, raiders t2 static def etc

sly ruin
#

usually people start making stouts after like 12-15 whistlers and run in once your defenses and units are broken

tight swallow
#

or they push to where they over extended, and an adjacent lane can flank the whistler ball

#

and either kill it or hit that players eco

mild oasis
#

yeah you're not gonna push into enemy base and destroy everything with just whistlers

tight swallow
#

You really can, its just you have to go an inch at a time keeping enemy units outside of 400 range of the whistlers

onyx canopy
#

Whistlers have 600 range

#

Thing is. HLT is 620. Give it a radar and you have whistler slapper

tight swallow
#

Right now it takes too long tobuild them, but in principal they are the counter - they take 5 hits @ max range to kill a whistler its discussed above

#

#1125788827970183238 message

mild oasis
#

you'd need what, 3 HLTs to take care of a dozen whistlers ?

signal flare
#

I don't understand all this talk about changing HLTs when they are fine - the problem is the missile truck. We don't balance the game by making other things OP in order to balance against something which is OP.. we nerf the thing that is OP, otherwise we just mess up balance elsewhere as well.
If you want HLTs to be better enough that front lines become inpenetrable and games just become porc and eco fests more than they already do, then I guess let's buff statics.

mild oasis
#

HLTs are garbage, but that's another issue

#

a balanced tower is a beamer, LLTs etc...

#

all useful at specific stages of the game. Same with scorpions, T2 plasma, etc... HLTs and gauntlets are never like that, they're ultra niche and a noob trap.

#

to come back to the missile truck it sounds like the consensus is to remove the ability to fire over themselves, that's about it

signal flare
#

HLTs are not as ultra niche as T1 MRPC, but let's have a suggestion thread about it instead of all the discussion here

mild oasis
#

whistlers do so little damage, a damage reduction would be crippling and make them useless

signal flare
#

That's the whole point

mild oasis
#

so few people use them against air

signal flare
#

so what? build them when you need AA, make them a little better against air. that's all in the OP

#

how silly would it be if crashers were able to shoot ground and the new meta was that we all mass crashers now and don't bother with plasma or rockets because they're too hard to use. this is where we are with missile trucks

onyx canopy
#

You know that whistlers can't fire over walls right?

#

I learned that the hard way when I parked whistlers behind a wall and thugs blasted them into oblivion

mild oasis
#

for me the issue is not that whistlers can fire at ground, it's that thistles, fighters and trashers can't

#

the 88 mm German cannon in WW2 was a flak cannon initially, before being found to be extremely useful against tanks, you think people whined at the Germans "hey that's OP" ? pepeomg

tight swallow
#

All the AA used to be able to hit ground iirc, its all been removed except for whistler/lasher now?

signal flare
#

The Germans weren't playing a computer game for fun. Also this isn't TA, and if everything with an AA weapon was able to shoot at the ground, the entire game would need to be rebalanced.

tight swallow
#

Whistlers make good t1 scout vision & AA, why does it need ground attack at all?

signal flare
#

Let's have a consistent design where AA units are good at their role and don't dominate the ground meta.

mild oasis
#

devs refused to reduce Razorback damage to air even though it's the only unit that has no reduced damage. The argument was that not all units need to do the same exact thing. And I agree

tight swallow
#

T3 units are generally unique and special compared to the the more generic t1 and t2 units - which usually have comparable counter parts in different labs and factions, Whistler is clearly a scout/aa role unit

signal flare
mild oasis
#

imo remove the ability to fire over themselves first, see what happens

tight swallow
#

That's literally the one thing that wont be changed - as it was a fix to collisionboxes which made it possible: #1125788827970183238 message

mild oasis
#

$unit whistler

rocky slateBOT
mild oasis
#

"The Whistler is a medium-range missile truck that can out range most Tech 1 defensive units. It doesn't fare well in close-combat, so always keep it at a distance using the Fight command. Combine it with Janus, Stouts, and repair units for a devastating front line push!"

#

does'nt even mention the AA function

onyx canopy
#

True

mild oasis
#

it does on the Lasher's page, but as a secundary function

#

kinda suggests the developpers meant it as a long range annoying ground unit FIRST, AA second

signal flare
#

The devs didn't really "mean" it that way as much as they inherited that way. They also inherited the old dgun, commander special damages, and so on, but that got redesigned, right?

#

Let's make missile trucks good at what the vehicle lab is actually missing, a decent AA unit, and leave the front line assaults to tanks, artillery, janus/pounder, blitz/incisor, etc. We having plenty of fighting units in the lab already.

mild oasis
#

dunno if they inherited it like that, in Total Annihilation it clearly says it's primarily an AA unit

#

dunno why in BAR they don't say that

signal flare
#

Yes, they inherited missile trucks and the majority of the game's balance came from Balanced Annihilation.

mild oasis
#

so BA was the original sinner ✝️

tight swallow
#

Which inherited from TA

mild oasis
#

did you know a Whistler sees further than a Thor ? peepoCantSleep

signal flare
#

Yes, and in the process, the majority of units which had AA weapons that shoot at ground were removed.

thin cosmos
#

We dont need labs to be carbon copy of each other.

#

Front line assault is DEFINITELY not whistlers role. Its meant to punish lazy play. It does that well. Get clowned on by so many things if you just dont allow it to sit and shoot at you.

gusty brook
#

Really I'd be more interested in making the t1 aa bot shoot ground also. But would have to be careful with the stats, it couldn't be as fast or long ranged as it is now - really it'd have to be shorter ranged and slower than the veh truck probably.

Making air/aa less separate from the ground unit fights would be mostly good. But it's not a necessary change, they can stay different too without issue.

tight swallow
#

If T1 AA bots could shoot ground, it would encourage people to include a few in their unit composition reduce Shurikans defensive plays, not sure that's a change I'd like to see

#

Shuri's punish people for not mixing in AA, but the metal cost needs to be a choice not a "oh this will provide enough AA no need to worry about it"

foggy timber
signal flare
# gusty brook Really I'd be more interested in making the t1 aa bot shoot ground also. But wou...

Be careful with the stats to say the least, we would have to start rebalancing T1 air so it can have any effectiveness. I guess if this is the direction people are wanting to take the game by design.. okay? But ultimately the more we start mixing unit roles the less actual diversity there is, and the more it won't matter which units you make as long as you make units. To me this cheapens the tactical game play a lot by reducing decision making and just will make the game more boring at the end of it all, when it is finally balanced again.

#

Part of the current problem with missile truck is that it is too multi-purpose.

gusty brook
#

I'm not saying to do it, but it'd be better than making missile truck aa only

#

its not bad to have multi-purpose units, thats not a bad thing. If it's too strong then that's an issue.

signal flare
#

Rebalancing all of T1 air would be better than making a unit better at its role? That doesn't make sense to me.

tight swallow
#

Why? currently t1 vech has no AA other than Lasher/Whistler

#

to be multi-purpose you should have a trade off, I don't see the trade off on whistlers

gusty brook
tight swallow
#

I don't think so - we only started seeing them frequently since the collisionbox change and the comupdate to remove regen

signal flare
# gusty brook Changing missile truck aa-only would be about as disruptive as changing the bot ...

This doesn't make sense to me either. If we make bot AA more multi-purpose, and people start building it more, it will make air less effective because people are already building the counter before the air is a threat. This is why air would need some rebalance.
If missile truck becomes AA only, you still need to build it to counter air, and it would be better, but.. you wouldn't be blindly countering air as part of the meta like what is happening now. So in this case, air might actually be more effective because it's less likely a player will have already built missile trucks.

gusty brook
#

But the missile truck would be way better at AA to compensate for the loss of the ground attack

tight swallow
#

And that can be balanced to be appropriate?

signal flare
#

Yes, I mentioned that, but you won't already have them before an air attack arrives. Air is more expensive, takes time to build up, and is best when its a surprise. So you would be building them reactively instead of already having them because it's meta.

gusty brook
#

Either (or almost any) system can be balanced, no shit

tight swallow
#

Or you spend the metal to have the AA already there, and hav a weaker frontline force

#

Which forces you to make a decision, rather than print a "I do everything" unit

gusty brook
#

You have that kind of tradeoff either way, missile truck isnt so great in most ground combat situations - even if its good in specific lane scenarios.

It's whether you want to see combat more decided by RPS (who builds air/aa/army at correct proportion and time) or by tactics (aa is a factor for ground battles and not a separate thing)

signal flare
#

I realize there is discussion around redesigning air already anyway, but if you're that concerned about RPS we should probably eliminate about half the units in the game and go with more multi-purpose units in armies. Sounds like a major change in design direction for the game as a whole. As-is, air is highly dependent on RPS to be effective.

#

My suggestion at the end of the day is not a total redesign of the game, just a small nerf to missile truck to help affect the meta.

tight swallow
#

I personally like the RPS & strategic plays - eg fients, flanks, pushes etc - a combination of both those is why I like BAR

gusty brook
#

cmon dont be so dramatic w the slippery slope... just because you consider one thing, doenst have to mean you change absolutely everything else in the game to the same pattern

dense hazel
#

If Whistler is to stay the same, surely Lasher would need a buff to bring Corveh up to par with Armveh? +33% dps against bombers and less overkill does not seem enough for Whistler and Lasher to be mostly balanced with each other.

#

How well does Lasher spam work?

signal flare
#

I guess I misinterpreted your statement about RPS then as saying you think there should be less RPS in the game. What did you actually mean?

tight swallow
#

Hazy: Lasher spam seems to just be "not quite good enough to be better than existing units", where as Whistler seems to be good enough to push it over that ledge

#

I've seen a few games where pepole bulid lasher to counter whistler, but you need just too many for it to be effective for some reason, either the damage, firing arc or some other difference

gusty brook
#

Idk, maybe there should be less RPS in the game. But definitely there shouldn't be more, like you would have w changing the missile truck to aa only

tight swallow
#

can't recall exactly on this one - but one of the dev's mentioned they had copy/pasted the whislter stats to the lasher and found it still didn't perform quite as well

gusty brook
#

Most of all I just laid what the game design difference between aa-only or combined aa/ground attack units is, for either the veh, bot, or any aa unit

#

And anyone's free to prefer either, or to be happy w the mix we have rn

signal flare
#

Shifting missile truck to AA only really wouldn't be that much of a change, and if anything makes the unit design more consistent and expected than the current state, which is ostensibly something we're aiming for in design philosophy. What changes to air do you think would need to be made to balance a slightly better AA missile truck, if any?
In any case, I knew coming into this discussion that most people wouldn't be behind removing it's gtg capability completely, so I started with the compromise of suggesting a reduction in that DPS.

gusty brook
#

There's no need to make changes to air if you did that

#

It'd just get used differently

#

Same for a aa bot change

karmic hound
#

shurikens would be so bad if mixing aa into your unit comps wasn't inefficient

signal flare
#

Disagree about the AA bot change, unless the gtg damage was low enough to make it not worth building for that purpose, in which case, why make the change? If you do make it worth building for its gtg weapon, you are allowing for blind counter to air, in which case we need to take another look at air to make it effective during T1.

gusty brook
#

Dude veh already have a blind counter to air in that sense

signal flare
#

Because if everyone is already building missile trucks and AA bots in the early game, how is air supposed to be effective?

karmic hound
dense hazel
#

I still like nerfing "agility"; leaves the option to spam in there, but worse at hit-and-run, easier to punish; doesn't affect ability to put AA where you want it that much.

gusty brook
#

remember bot aa is way way better as aa than missile trucks

signal flare
karmic hound
#

Yes but bot aa can't just go push into static defenses or kill coms cmon. this isn't a complicated argument

signal flare
#

Yeah it's starting to get circular, bot AA is better in part because it can't shoot ground, which if we were to change missile trucks to same, they would need their AA buffed as well.

gusty brook
#

its complicated because theres a dozen different arguments going on at the same time here

jaunty saffron
#

people would cry so hard if they remove ground targeting, it's not worth it, even 30% dmg reduction to ground only make them go wilde

cedar fossil
#

Data from September, before the major changes to whistler (damage, hitbox, etc) [Rippsy dug this up].
#🔩｜dev-main message
Whistler was already about 28.5% more efficient than lashers (getting 28.5% more XP on average)

pine smelt
#

give back DTed LLTs and HLTs to the game!

#

let dt block the rocket bots and missiles and lasers and machine guns. all los weapons

livid sparrow
#

I completely disagree with removing ground attack from missile trucks.
Firstly we don’t need to make units nor capable at their roles and remove other capabilities. The whole game revolves around being able to do things that wasn’t meant to be done. Stop punishing players for being creative. For instance pawns and grunts shoot air. It’s not their role but if you have enough you kill stunners. It makes unit interactions more interesting.
Secondly speaking about interesting why remove another meta so that only 1 click stout Janus spam is left? Have every lab have several metas without this Rock Paper Scissors nonsense that most other rts have. This is a unique selling point of bar that you don’t have to follow a single meta

signal flare
#

The original suggestion is not to remove the gtg weapon, it's only a good idea that has come up during the discussion.

cedar fossil
#

My vote is to just raise the hixbox of lasher and whistler (again).
T1 veh lab is already full of units that can fire over each other (T1 tanks, janus, blitz, arty). Missile trucks really do not also need that ability.
And defenses + repair can last a lot longer if the missile trucks are not stacked in a triple row.
And requiring the missile trucks to be in a line makes it much harder for 1 commander to Dgun cover 16+ missile trucks.

signal flare
#

It's not very creative to spam a single unit every game. Pawns and grunts can shoot air, yes, but they're not effective AA and the interaction is only meaningful with small numbers of air against much larger numbers of infantry. In the case of missile trucks shooting ground, sure if you really want it I guess, but let's rebalance it so that we do get more than a 1-click Whistler meta.

#

There is loads and loads of RPS in BAR and if you were to remove it the game would be just as boring as if it were all RPS. The truth to that argument is there should be a design balance between them that makes the game fun to play, not that we go all-in in one direction or another. It's the same case about special damages.. they need to exist to help solve specific balance scenarios, but we don't want to design a game around having every unit interaction have some special damages either.

#

It would make a lot of design sense to remove gtg from missile trucks and buff their AA because this is how T1 AA units are generally designed, and it would be more consistent to fit them to their main role. In the case of sea, nobody builds skeeter or missile boat for their weapons, and nobody masses either one either, because their gtg weapon is balanced well enough that it isn't their role.

livid sparrow
#

Their role is not singularly anti air

signal flare
#

Again, I approached this thread knowing people wouldn't want gtg removed, even though it's sensible. My suggestion was 50%, another suggestion shows 30% might be enough, and most people just want to see the hitboxes changed so they can't fire over each other.

livid sparrow
#

Is it not possible to have a unit manage 2 roles simultaneously?

#

Why would it be sensible to remove another meta from the vehicle lab

#

Jaguar for instance has aa too, would you remove that?

#

Or shooting air from thugs?

signal flare
#

Why do you want vehicle lab to have such a bad AA unit?

livid sparrow
#

The easiest solution would be to reduce ground damage, you don’t like special damages so hitboxes makes most sense

#

Why would Samson need to be a strong aa? Vehicles are already stronger than bots on flat terrain. Also why not make their aa more effective then instead of removing ground fire

frosty kestrel
#

the hitboxes are open for change

signal flare
#

Why would we make them more effective against air while also having them be viable in gtg?

livid sparrow
#

Why would jaguars then?

frosty kestrel
#

however both missile trucks cannot have different styles
like what was before

signal flare
#

Jaguars are a T2 unit

frosty kestrel
#

jaguars cannot fire over themselves
btw

livid sparrow
#

So what about destroyers can shoot subs and surface, or t1 boats shooting air

signal flare
#

Why shouldn't we have fighters go back to shooting ground? Why shouldn't we also let AA bots shoot ground? Why not let everything shoot at everything and then rebalance the whole game?

livid sparrow
#

Fighters shooting ground is ok imo. Aa bots also. Everything shouldn’t shoot everything else

signal flare
#

Why not?

livid sparrow
#

Screamer would be too op

signal flare
#

Yes you would have to rebalance everything, but then you're all set right?

livid sparrow
#

No. Fighters used to shoot ground no problem. In xta and ota aa bots shoot ground. Make it weak. So you can mix with aggravator. Only thing you’d have to change is aa bots. New viable bot meta there

#

It’s all been done before

#

Would be similar to Janus whistler

sullen panther
# livid sparrow Why would jaguars then?

Jaguars are not a spam-to-win unit, and their aa is only useful against small amounts of air/t1 shuriken. Making whistlers be both a good anti ground unit as well as buffed aa is stupid.

signal flare
#

Not sure I know what you mean, no that everything wouldn't have to be rebalanced or no that you wouldn't be all set once everything is rebalanced (for everything shooting at everything).

livid sparrow
#

No not everything would need to be rebalanced

signal flare
#

so screamer and flak would be fine as-is

livid sparrow
sullen panther
#

I did not insult you.

signal flare
#

I really would enjoy seeing some vehicle flak spam to counter tick spam

livid sparrow
#

In your words my suggestion was stupid

sullen panther
#

How is making a single spammable unit good against everything not stupid?

livid sparrow
#

1200 post thread with easy solution at hand yet here we are arguing

#

First It’s not good against everything. Secondly stop calling me stupid

sullen panther
#

I'm not saying you're stupid, just that buffing whistler against air while they are still good against ground is a stupid suggestion.

livid sparrow
#

Who was suggesting buffing their aa?

signal flare
#

Whenever you call something stupid the implication is that someone who agrees with it is also stupid, it's just a rather condescending approach. Better is to approach with inquiry: #1125788827970183238 message
If it's ignored after that you can move on, if it's brought up again reask the same question.

livid sparrow
#

I asked that because you said it was bad at aa. And if that’s case why would you not buff aa rather than remove ground

sullen panther
signal flare
#

You wouldn't buff the AA because then it would truly be an imba unit, and the only one you really need to spam from the lab. If you remove it's gtg viability, you can buff the AA to compensate.

livid sparrow
#

Look at what resp wrote about implying someone being stupid

#

Reducing ground damage and buffing air wouldn’t make it op. You argue as if it were mutually exclusive

sullen panther
signal flare
#

Yeah I am on board with just reducing ground damage, and buffing AA a little on the heels of that would make sense. I think we should take the opportunity to just remove one of these last vestiges of weird AA unit/ground interactions as a design approach, but I also know there are a lot of people who don't want that.

#

From my perspective, there's been a pretty clear design trajectory which has removed most of the interactions of AA weapons with ground. I think non-AA ground that shoots at air does so still only because the reduced damages make them mostly unimportant interactions. They could also be removed without much consequence at this point. A blob of pawns could probably shoot down a transport with a comm drop, but I don't patrol around my base with a blob of pawns because they're good at raiding, so I send them to raid. Anyway, removing gtg from missile trucks and buffing their AA makes sense as a way to achieve 2 goals: affecting the current missile truck meta and completing a design trajectory.

livid sparrow
#

It would completely remove a meta. Reducing your options

signal flare
#

If we lower gtg DPS enough to have an effect, it will also "remove" the meta, I think. Missile trucks might still have frontline utility for sight, use them with arty, but that's not a different meta than the past. I think affecting the current Whistler meta essentially means removing it.

wispy hamlet
#

Itanias suggestion of having slasher and Samsung unable to fire over each other will fix a lot of problems.

thin cosmos
#

Their dps is already a joke

#

19 for 150 metal. Pawn gets 90 for what, 37?

cedar fossil
#

Sheldon is 0.160 DPS per metal
Armsam is 0.127 DPS per metal

Missile trucks kinda act like T1 sheldons.

wispy hamlet
echo crystal
little plaza
#

while also being aa 😄

are we sure its not just a jack of all trades sheldon

hasty saddle
#

Do people remember playing BA? Current missile strength is nothing unknown, and arty are better than they used to be. Get good.

crimson badger
#

I always thought this truck has 44 DPS as this is on the website, but turns out it is website bug (combining aa+land atacks) and in reality it has DPS around 20

little plaza
#

yes

#

it takes like 55 seconds for a single one to do 1k damage but it quickly escalates from there as you get more

crimson badger
#

point of reference: TA:ESC disabled samson shooting ground and it makes game much better; basically IMO unit that is land+aa attack + targetted rockets is a bit too much for a t1 unit; and if its just nerfed dps but ppl still spam it then it just makes for annoying audio experience

little plaza
#

and if bots tried to invest in nearly that amount of aa to counter shurikans/air they would be steamrolled by ground :I

also the dps is alot better when you back up the fact that its consistent, its not mitigated by chance to miss or range fall off and ive seen them hit past thugs to kill rez bots, the only way it could be better if it was hitscan.

tight swallow
#

Consistant long range chip damage, feels like hitscan damage

mild oasis
#

if the projectile takes a finite amount of time to reach the target, it is not hitscan

#

hitscan = instantaneous

thin cosmos
#

Shurikens being end all be all is bad.
It's good if there's playstyles that counter it.

tight swallow
thin cosmos
#

I'm up for buffing hlt to counter trucks

tight swallow
#

Yeah I think the HLT change is needed anyway, probably worth a separate thread

thin cosmos
#

Little more range, more hp, dmg & less build power

mild oasis
#

yeah it's needed for a million different reasons, it just so happens it will help with the missile truck spam

#

u'll still be able to demolish an HLT with stouts and brutes, but it should be able to take care of missile trucks and rocketeers

thin cosmos
#

Would buff range just tiny bit

#

So arty can still kill it eventually to leave t1 with porc solution unless enemy builds arty

mild oasis
#

I'll leave that to HLTs experts but for me I'd do the Karg treatment : more expensive, and a lot better. Make it more metal expensive, but with a much better rate of fire.

thin cosmos
#

It's terrible for its cost rn

mild oasis
#

it dies in minutes, accomplishing nothing, just like gauntlets

sly ruin
#

Tbh these days porc feels like a trap outside of making llts, or the occasional dragon claw to hold a little longer. This has only increased since whistler meta took off.

pine smelt
#

LLTs , and T1- T2 popups are only viable porc, other is some kind of offensive units (plasma arty and hlts')
Also sea porc seems complete useless wrecked by sea units too easily.
I think all porc deserve separate thread to discuss. Its very hard topic since its too easy to make porc too op, and make games boring

mild oasis
#

you hold the line with units now, and if units breach, the eco players have 0 tower defense because they went all in

#

and the defense becomes how fast your mates can react and redirect their units to stop that push

topaz cliff
#

All you literally need to do is push out medium tanks, spread them out, and tuch the trucks. They font have the armor pr fire power to fight back, and the crowd control units (riot or janus) are only viable when your units are balles up.

gg

#

Missile truck space countered

mild oasis
#

yeah we know that stouts and brutes are the counter

#

you can't use missile trucks for long

sly ruin
#

Alternatively what might be a good solution to the current predicament is simply to do something like doubling build time of whistler. I feel like the main problem stems from how easy they are to ball up on no eco at all. Usual build order on poverty map is simply to get 2 veh cons and pump them out fast.
I tried countering with medium tanks and Janus before but I could not keep up with how fast whistlers seemed to mass up.
This would also help their matchup Vs arty which tends to trade badly in low numbers (below around 10 depending on map), without really touching the current capabilities of the unit. Obviously it would make making them in response to air a lot harder but I rarely see whistles be made as a reaction to sudden air and more like a buildup for a push. What do people think?

sly ruin
mild oasis
#

yeah I've seen Lostdeadman do that

#

he'll go for blitz, couple of shelshockers (3-4), 8 whistlers, and then straight to pure stouts

#

he claims more than 8-10 whistlers and you lose

cedar fossil
#

Whistler has a 14:1 Energy:Metal ratio, which is fairly low

sly ruin
#

Seen raghna get whistled by emre with a ridiculous number of them on field though I tend to agree, trash panda often makes way more than that and still crushes all.

mild oasis
#

but I haven't seen people countering whistler spam with bots though

sly ruin
#

Because you cant

mild oasis
#

usually those people try to get to sheldons as fast as possible

cedar fossil
#

The cortex bot struggle vs whistlers is real.

Only thing that can catch them is grunts, and when whistlers are balled up, you do not get a good attack surface

sly ruin
mild oasis
#

imo on flat ground it's normal that vehicles win, it's what they're made for, vehicles are better

gusty brook
#

bot opening still has advantages esp if theres reclaim on the map

#

then switch into vehicles if necessary, or some maps might just rush t2

mild oasis
#

yep, that's why in 1v1 on flat maps you often see bots => vehicles T1 transitions

gusty brook
#

but yeah in a lane you cant fight veh slow push w bots

#

when theres arty trucks tanks and janus/pounder in some reasonable mix

#

but you can delay it

#

and if they overreach, and you didnt bleed your army to them bit by bit, you might be able to get a nice surround w your allies

mild oasis
#

so the fact that bots can't counter whistlers isn't really an issue.

sly ruin
#

Yes but bots used to have good momentum on short rush distance maps, flash type rocketbot pushes or simple thug pushes are extremely hard to hold if done correctly with veh opener due to how arty, medium tanks behave early. Even Janus is not a guaranteed defense but whistlers are. There was a careful balance and whistlers kinda destroyed it.

signal flare
gusty brook
#

but whether the missile truck is too strong or not, imo, it's more interesting unit when it can't fire over each other

#

and probably when it cant fire over medium tanks or janus either, which still remains even if truck hitbox is changed

sly ruin
#

There are a lot of good viable suggestions here each of which would probably be enough to push whistlers out of their dominance tbh.

mild oasis
topaz cliff
#

Bot players hate having viable counters to their thug lines

thin cosmos
#

Bull on the other hand, even one, when properly microed will bully infinite ammount of stouts into submission

sly ruin
thin cosmos
#

II make 1 bull, then focus on eco. I play those "pro" lobbies. It really is if you arent agressive with it.

sly ruin
#

I saw someone beat 2 bulls with that combo without losing too much on bismuth and a couple other times on Rosetta.

thin cosmos
#

I saw someone with only comm (which was last in the game) die to titan sneaking up on them in full vision in 25+ lobby.

#

ppl being bad at the game doesnt mean its not great counter. If you dont feel confident, make few T2 arty

#

They are super cheap and outrange missile trucks by ton

gusty brook
#

missile trucks dont do crap to bulls

sly ruin
#

T2 arty is good I agree but getting to T2 itself can be a challenge if you ever played Vs good players like panda emre or litchi

gusty brook
#

bull can just go in, kill a bunch w its aoe, and retreat before it dies

#

even when outnumbered. if theres faster units around too, then yeah you need more stuff too

sly ruin
#

Sounds good on paper but you forget the stouts on front

gusty brook
#

then its not really about missile trucks is it

thin cosmos
#

You can always kill few stouts, the go heal up

sly ruin
gusty brook
#

stouts can kill bulls if youre not careful but thats the real threat there, not the trucks

#

but if theyre knocking on the front door of your base, then its tricky if you dont have room to maneuver

thin cosmos
#

And if you are careful, you can just kite infinitely. Truck chip damage is too low to matter while you absolutely smash clump of stouts trying to chase

#

Ofcourse if theres 20 trucks and 20 stouts, you make like 3 bulls to kill all of it

#

But thats way more then your T2, worker and the bulls you make to kill it with low effort

gusty brook
#

getting overrun before your t2 units have time to do much is always a threat, but overall missile trucks are much worse vs t2 than other t1 veh units

#

but plasma/rocket bots get rekt by t2 about as bad

#

oh veh arty gets outdated too

sly ruin
#

I guess next time I am losing lane I will follow up with going T2 and some quick bulls before they reach my base PepeHappy

thin cosmos
#

Dont loose lane, ez

#

Arty counters trucks

gusty brook
#

if somebody cant win by following quick tips they read on the internet... theres something wrong with the advice

topaz cliff
thin cosmos
gusty brook
#

elitist

wispy hamlet
#

Anyone that thinks arty counters I'd love to whoop you anytime homie

#

Next time ur in lane lemme know your position

cedar fossil
#

Many of the newer maps have gravity 80 (DSDR has 130 for comparison, and comet catcher has 70), so it takes a very long time for arty shells to land

jaunty saffron
#

that's very not new player friendly and it's not good for gameplay, should always be the same for arty shot to land

tight swallow
#

There is a suggestion to do just that already made and being discussed

little plaza
topaz cliff
little plaza
#

they can hit your mexes and even rez bots over your walls

topaz cliff
little plaza
#

😦

topaz cliff
#

Build more walls and back up.

Or make mines

little plaza
#

arnt mines vehicle lab only

topaz cliff
#

You are beginning to understand

little plaza
#

i already understand my point was bots in general are countered by whistlers + llt creep youd have to be producing thugs from the very start to overcome it but youre on a time limit to do enough damage to the enemy commander to push and counter deny mex meanwhile your com cant help much without taking damage due to whistler range

#

which is absurdly strange considering that whistlers are meant to counter air

#

It also means that all of the agency is on the other player to use their com to dodge thug plasma / rockets, massively decreasing their actual dps to the point where i wouldnt be surprised if they were worse than whistlers at killing coms

tldr: in a vacuum whistlers suck, but with a combination of a micro`d commander and llts supporting them, nothing from the bot lab can push them out except maybe extremely massed grunts after a bunch of aggravators suicide to kill a few LLTs

echo crystal
#

@frosty kestrel

frosty kestrel
frail agate
wispy hamlet
#

Drivver is a benevolent hitbox god don't worry gentlemen

wispy hamlet
#

Also good fun that ragnha 'ninja' in his removal of special damages to com and pretend the +50% damage to com isn't affecting whistler meta

#

But I think we're passed where it came from and just want it to end imo

jaunty saffron
#

hopefully the changes that are coming are good and make us quickly forget the last few weeks

thin cosmos
#

Changes have been coming for past month something

#

No change or other communication happened.
Just "trust me bro"

wispy hamlet
#

gg can we get the fix now c:

frosty kestrel
little plaza
#

the Whistler tourney

mild oasis
#

pros just build 6-8 of them as part of their normal progression towards T2

#

just like bot people will build thugs

#

yesterday I saw Lostdeadman hold DSDR mid with 20 hounds, should we now say hounds OP ?

echo crystal
#

the problem was acknowledged by the dev team - why keep discussing if its a problem or not ?
the same thing happened before cor t3 changes pepeomg

thin cosmos
#

Cor t3 changes were discussed a lot

#

Comm update is radio silence

mild oasis
#

what's the current status on those T3 changes ? afaik people like new karg, don't think new shiva is good enough

echo crystal
#

As far as i understand, any major changes to the game are halted until after the tourney, which make sense - dont alter the game just before tourney, it's just outright bad to do it. Ptaq'u has some changes in regard to comm update (as far as I understood).
Drivver is considering the fixes for the current lobster pot clusterfuck meta (as far as I understood).

Give it time its game dev not cooking show.

jovial crypt
#

That's a surprising amount of lobsters for what isn't a cooking show.

But yeah, basically nothing's changed - wait for PtaQ's changes to come post tourney. I get and agree that the current meta is not fun - I believe those changes are meant to address both problems, as they're interconnected. Time will tell what they'll be, though.

#

I will remind everyone here that all the devs are volunteers, with jobs, families etc, so some radio silence - especially in a holiday period - shouldn't be surprising.

onyx canopy
#

Whistlers is just in perfect spot to bother everyone. It feels clunky to use, it has so much range it makes opponents mad, accuracy makes bot players mad too

crimson badger
#

Not sure was said before, another OP feature everyone now takes for granted in Samson is that it has ridiculous LOS, another op outlier for t1 unit that it has LOS==range. Almost all units have smaller los than range which incentivise to make combos with high los units like radar to utilize attack range to the max

#

Even more expensive t2 units of similar range like fido range 650 or spider range 600 don't have this op feature

thin cosmos
#

They usually were used as t1 spotter for veh.

#

So your arty can shoot stuff.
They are now used massed because t1 phase lasts longer and they are only unit in the game that was buffed vs comm

#

All others were nerfed massively, so Samsung ball with comm guarding it?
Good luck approaching that.

little plaza
#

you cant even use your com to repair your units without getting peppered by them

frosty kestrel
#

#1105936118907666533 message
this message is relevant here and in the commander update
i truely think that the culprit at this point is the commander update itself rather than the change i made
rather an infectiouis part of the commander update when it comes to match progression

rough shard
#

whistler still broken af

#

oh, you guys already know.

gusty brook
#

its a mix of all the various things that have changed

#

also including stuff like the infantry bot nerf

civic skiff
#

I just used whistlers in a game and got dunked on by veh arty by a 20 TS player

#

Idk, in any other situation missile trucks seem completely fine, it seems its only lobs that run into this issue

#

Well, by dunked I didn't die, I just had to retreat and reclaim them

They just made T1 plasma arty tower as well as some T1 veh arty and I really couldn't do shit

#

Scout vehicles have 635 LOS, so offer the same LOS as whistler for far cheaper

echo crystal
#

They just made T1 plasma arty tower
in lobster pot you would get reported for building that lmao

civic skiff
#

Whistler counter the "meta" used by many lobs

dense hazel
civic skiff
#

Fuck I forget which one

civic skiff
#

I'd go through them myself but I'm out at the moment

#

Anyways, my whistlers got successfully countered by low TS players, I jokingly said it initally however it may just be lobs who cant adapt

frosty kestrel
#

I wonder when lasher meta pops up

dense hazel
#

I got owned by lashers (mostly) in my last game. it's here

echo crystal
thorny valve
#

• [Whistler] Range decreased from 600 -> 575
• [Lasher] Damage per shot decreased 47 -> 43
• [Shellshocker] Reloadtime increased 5.7s -> 6.2s
• [Wolverine] Reloadtime increased 6.6s -> 7.2s

#

The reason for the different whistler and lasher nerfs is to keep lasher from being a strictly worse whistler. This way arm's missile truck has the advantage of speed and damage, while cor gets range and health

#

Nerfing missile trucks can't be done without also nerfing T1 veh artillery, as they have a similar role and can be just as oppressive

#

Its also worth noting that against air lashers are slightly stronger with the extra range and firerate, but whistler's extra speed makes it easier to get into position

thin cosmos
#

so we go back to spamming thugs

#

Idk why are you nerfing artillery.
It already had issue hitting anything that moves above snail pace.
If you are oppressed by it, I'm sorry, you are the problem.

#

Also, the main root of the issue stays the same. Comm update still exists.

We were told its being worked on.

Yet there were so many changes in the meantime.

This is one of those that would be done and dusted if units could actually approach whistler ball with a comm without them all dying to the com alone.

gusty brook
thin cosmos
#

Units approach

wispy hamlet
#

artillery was the only unit that count contend with missle truck spam and now the nerf is gonna make this harder. also, bots are stillabsolutely piss to play vs vehicles. matchup is still unplayable most maps

thin cosmos
#

Comm walks forward

#

Units either walk trough dgun fest of the 4k hp immortal unit in t1 or retreat

#

Ez GGWP

wispy hamlet
#

so what is their role? undodgeable constant dps long range seige unit + skirmisher + anti air

thin cosmos
#

You are just nerfing units arbitrarily that aren't issue.
Comm is.

wispy hamlet
#

seems to me the missle truck just does too many jobs and even with this patch its still too strong

thin cosmos
#

It's not a skirmisher

#

It can do that role because no other unit can approach it when comm is nearby.
You just want to clump up and go vs trucks.
You can't if 1 dgun kills half your units on approach

restive gale
cedar fossil
#

c) T1 stage lasts longer, so T2 counters to missile trucks come out slower

gusty brook
restive gale
#

And the answer is what I said

#

It's more unapproachable because your comm and units will die to the samsungs

#

And because a)+b)+c) people have a larger ball of samsungs, making it oppressive

cedar fossil
#

Not sure how I feel about the arty nerf.
On one side I feel fine, as a 150 metal unit you can make super early outranging all statics is very powerful, it will be easier to repair through arty fire.
On the other, arty behinds walls was an excellent way to deal with missile trucks, and I am not sure the 25 range decrease is enough for other counters to be used vs Whistlers.

#

Going to be very easy to stall with Maws/Claws now (at least on 8v8 lane-ish maps).
Maws/claws (with wall surround, and some repair support) answer everything in the veh lab pretty well now.
Can hold off even more arty and missile trucks, and have always traded well into light+medium tanks.

wispy hamlet
#

it has same speed as thuds so it can infinitely kite them

cedar fossil
#

cortex bots vs whistler feels really bad. Thug speed equal to Whistler is pain

#

And the rocket bot has +3 speed, still takes a long time to catch

wispy hamlet
#

I dont think missle trucks should have this extreme multirole that it does right now

#

the only role it doesnt play is assault but it basically does everything else better than its counterparts

signal flare
#

Yeah I don't like nerfing artillery either tbh, I think the role they play is important on the front lines. They can be oppressive but they can't kite. Missile trucks having a similar role, but performing it a bit better is just superfluous. I really don't understand how we end up at an arty nerf when the complaint all along has been missile trucks..

#

If we want to compensate for reducing/removing this role, then we make them better AA since they are pretty crap at that role now

#

It also doesn't make sense to me where it even comes from.. This whole discussion, and not a post previously which suggests also nerfing artillery

jaunty saffron
#

if 25 range is enough to not make this unit totally broken that's amazing balancing skill

wispy hamlet
#

yeah the update also came with a nerf to artillery, which was one of their coutners too

#

vehicles still render bots unplayable most maps

jaunty saffron
#

i played 2 dsd games and no whistlers spam, that felt so nice

thin cosmos
#

Artillery nerf because noobs can't handle not being able to porc whole game is laughable.
Noone complained about arty.

jovial crypt
#

Arty still feels fine, having used it once today

jovial crypt
thin cosmos
cedar fossil
signal flare
#

increasing the reload is a DPS nerf, not sure how that sugar coats it.

jovial crypt
#

Yeah, it obviously is, but I personally use arty to dive in, burst something down, and repeat... so as long as that isn't made weaker "per dive", I'm still fine with it

thin cosmos
#

I'm fine it's not affecting my playstyle isn't an argument

#

It's why we have comms walking and destroying 3 bases in pro lobbies rn

#

Because it fits raghnas playstyle.

signal flare
#

It wasn't at all a needed change and it still doesn't make any sense. Missile truck doesn't need this long-range artillery role. We had this perfect opportunity to do some small reshaping, and instead we just make a different unit strictly worse. To me it's like fixing the sink when the toilet it broken.

thin cosmos
#

That's precisely what it is, arty was mainly used to harass porcing players and to defeat Samsung balls

jovial crypt
#

I'm not really making an argument going either way, I'm just giving my subjective view on how it felt using it today. I know it's not much in terms of added value or new information, though.

As I understand it, reso (though I probably know just as much as you do!) we're still likely to get fixes to the broken toilet (the updated commander), might as well fix the exploding sink (the whistler meta) while we're waiting for those, no?

thin cosmos
#

Why are we nerfing counter to Samsung randomly when we are supposed to make them weaker?

jovial crypt
#

To devil's advocate that a little, I could see the logic going along the lines of "missile trucks can contest t1 arti, with them weaker, t1 arti might become more rampant - let's prevent that".

I would still love to get some elaboration from @thorny valve on that point, if you don't mind! 🙂

thin cosmos
#

...
It's other way around.
You build arty to kill missile truck.
Counter to arty is to set your units on patrol

#

It won't ever hit any if they move.

#

I had 3 stouts tanking over 10 arty maybe 3 minutes while I teched up and ate my whole army to make mexes faster

#

Because if enemy porcs and just shoots you with arty, you won.

jovial crypt
#

Yeah, on second thought I'm definitely not doing as good a job as Keanu did in the role

signal flare
#

Arty is easier to deal with in a lot of cases because it relies on radar instead of vision to find targets, which means you either need to keep making scouts, include a missile truck or two in the composition with your arty, or consistently target fire ground manually in a way that nets you efficient results. There are actual ways to deal with arty too, like moving your units around to avoid getting hit by slow shots, or building a radar jammer to prevent targeting without vision. But anyway, no one complained about it because it didn't need a nerf.
@thorny valve Could you please explain why you decided to go this direction at all? It doesn't seem to make any real sense comparing the change to the original complaint and the ensuing discussion. It might address the first point, but the actual change doesn't do much to missile trucks. Points 2 and 3 are basically unadressed at all. Why not just change hitboxes so they can't fire over each other? This was by far the most popular and least radical suggestion, and more sensible than the course taken.

tame basalt
#

I manage to destroy any whistler spammer playing against me with my janus/arty/stouts relatively easily at pretty high rank, I'm of the opinion that they are overrated.

And I don't feel like arty needs a nerf, easy to dodge their shots and already slow to shoot.

placid lynx
#

I think this is a token nerf to make people forget the unit. The damage nerf certainly hurts, t1 tanks can close the gap better as well as repair being even better against whistler, but whistler should still snowball t1 very well. If people still play like before, and make 3.5K metal in whistler, that's still should be hard to deal with and easy to feed units into 1 by 1.

signal flare
#

Reminds of the change to Cortex T3 in some ways. The improvements to Karganeth didn't really make it worth building, and the changes to Shiva have not yet given them a very viable role.

thin cosmos
#

Karganeth is OP and I now see it as default T3 for cortex

#

Everyone builds it

tame basalt
#

When you see them crawling down the mountain side towards you it is indeed a terrifying sight.

thorny valve
# signal flare Arty is easier to deal with in a lot of cases because it relies on radar instead...

T1 veh arti has been on my watch list for a while, and I think that its usually better to start with a few missile trucks then switch to mostly T1 veh arti than to go for only missile trucks. As unit count increases on both sides it becomes much more difficult to micro to avoid artillery shots, and they can fire from a safer distance. Its also difficult to continuously micro to avoid shots over a long period of time. I've seen and played a bunch of games that were won by building 5-10 T1 veh arti and then using a fight command towards the opponent with very little micro, and those aren't very interesting matches.

#

One of the causes for the meta shift is the reduced comm wreck which slowed down the shift to T2 which gives missile trucks and T1 veh arti more time to push

jaunty saffron
#

op whistler also made it impossible to tech coz if you stop making units to try to stop them you lose very quickly

wispy hamlet
#

Zecrus what about vehicle vs bots? Im finding more and more that bots simply dont stand a chance in these lane map 8v8s

#

i had a game where I literally had top damage, I was thugs into medium tanks, janus, artillery and whistler, but because the janus alpha strike, I was only able to get 8 kills while my opponent got nearly 30

#

just seems like if the vehcile player knows how to micro its basically impossible to go bots unless you pure rocket spam, but even then u still lose to artillery on high gravity maps

tame basalt
#

bots are getting crushed by veh. feels wrong. bots need a buff, in speed i'll say

bright sorrel
#

Just revert all balance back to how it was right after 1v1 tournament and start over

civic skiff
#

The problem is if you only go bots

Similar to how vehicles just dont work on hills there are some situations where T1 bots just wont work very well

A flat map into a well balanced veh army with good micro is one of those situations

Best chance is to run 1-3 ticks into the janus and rush with pawn, negating the janus's alpha strike advantage, if the pawns can get into the middle of the janus group the high AOE will damage some of the janus as well.
This loses effectiveness as the armies increase in size, the tick may not cause all of the janus to fire in larger armies, and your concentrated bots rushing them will take massive losses before getting into the group.

The best response is to change your lab, either go T2 bots or T1 veh

#

Bots have a bit of an economic advantage with their constructors and having rez bots provides massive utility

In a way its fair that bots dont have an easy answer to everything

#

If I'm playing for lots of unit activity in late T1 I'll probably have both labs

You can always reclaim both labs to make your T2

wispy hamlet
# civic skiff The problem is if you only go bots Similar to how vehicles just dont work on hi...

everyone keeps saying this vehicles are obsolete on hills nonsense but what actual maps that we play have huge hills? Ascendency top lane? The narrow choke on north DSDR or specifically the ramp of the hill? There is basically no place in the modern maps we play where u cant just go vehicles. Even the mountains on koom you can just build a proxy lab at the lower levels. 8v8 is absolutely by far the most common gamemode and it feels like if u dont go vehicles on any of these maps, youre basically dead

wispy hamlet
#

meanwhile youre taking the missle truck damage tax as they kite back so no matter what you are losing unless you get good damage in

#

so the answer to playing bots is just to transition into vehicles

civic skiff
#

I think thats more of a mapping issue, I feel its sensible for vehicles to dominate flat lands to some degree, similar to how ships should dominate sea

#

Maps like Horus do bots versus vehicles very well, bots have lanes vehicles cant go to so they always remain relevant

wispy hamlet
#

I hate that we have all these maps that we play 8v8 on, designed for the game, and the balance folk think "aw man, you just need to make a map where bots have significant advantage for them to be viable" but like, if the answer to balance is "bots need terrain advantage" then maybe they arent balanced imo

civic skiff
#

Bots are cheaper and have better early T1 potential, especially when it comes to killing commanders

wispy hamlet
#

the reason maps are flat isnt just to make vehicles viable, its because pathing on hills is really bad, so the flatter you can make the map the better it is gameplaywise

#

the consequence of that is for some reason we balance flatness around vehicle effectiveness so basically every map that people actually enjoy gameplay on also happens to be horrible imbanaced for bots vs vehicles

wispy hamlet
#

especially with comupdate making coms beefier

#

you need to severely outnumber an isolated com with full flanking damage to even get a shot at killing it now, but in lane unless they are pretty bad they will just have a few llts

civic skiff
#

Blitz cant dodge dguns, however pawns can, 10 pawns can kill a lone commander while 10 blitz cant

wispy hamlet
#

if I have 1-2 janus up there is 0 chance my lane opponent is going to kill me with pawns

#

I will just llt spam and alpha strike weave in and out to widdle them down while my artilelry/missles slowly taxes and pushes me forward

civic skiff
#

If you have LLT too yeah

wispy hamlet
#

bots have no answer tbh

civic skiff
#

rocket bots

wispy hamlet
#

rocket bots lose to artilelry and missle truck and janus tbh

civic skiff
#

those both just got nerfed

gusty brook
wispy hamlet
#

in the 8v8 i just wtached 13 out of the 16 players went vehicles

#

the 2 techers went bots and 1 laner

civic skiff
#

what map?

wispy hamlet
#

starwater

civic skiff
#

uh, I dont remember that one

wispy hamlet
#

its very flat and open, like almost all 8v8 maps

#

the only very steep hill 8v8 map is taldarim and that map is super unpopular

thin cosmos
#

Glass is salty

wispy hamlet
#

and even then, people just get on the hills and proxy vehicle lab on them

civic skiff
#

starwatcher isn't in the map list on website

thin cosmos
#

Show me where the January touched you

civic skiff
#

I dont doubt its ingame, website is out of date a lot

wispy hamlet
thin cosmos
#

Damm autocorrect

civic skiff
#

Damn, thats like the flattest map of them all

wispy hamlet
#

saying its a mapping issue is dodging the balance question

thin cosmos
#

Anyway, baiting out Janus shots is normal strategy. Getgood

gusty brook
#

veh just got nerfed tho

wispy hamlet
#

not signicantly enough, bots are still unviable

gusty brook
#

qq

civic skiff
#

I've killed lone groups of ~5 janus with double the grunts and a few ticks to bait shots

#

Ableit *lone

wispy hamlet
#

idk who ur playing against isy but clearly they didnt have correct unit comp

thin cosmos
#

Just run 1 fast unit ahead

spiral roost
#

Veh was unviable literally nothing happens and now bots unviable meta are amazing isn't it

thin cosmos
#

All the janus will shoot it

civic skiff
#

If you make an army of the most effective T1 units in the game its kind of strong

#

What kind of unit comp are we talking? janus mixed with whistler and veh arty?

#

5 or so of each?

# 
5*240+5*150+5*135=2625

2625 metal, we're talking a T2 lab's worth

gusty brook
spiral roost
#

You never needed to repair com it's very bad use of rez bot time

gusty brook
#

thats what ppl were saying

bright sorrel
thin cosmos
#

Trucks and arty were nerfed too now

#

3 nerfs vs 4 nerfs. Bots OP now

bright sorrel
#

I seriously think we should revert to the April balance and take another shot at finding balance because I feel a lot of people aren't happy with the current balance.

#

The grunts were dominant then so perhaps they need a slight nerf

civic skiff
#

I find current balance fine

bright sorrel
#

Well I am of the impression that you are in the minority

#

But perhaps I am wrong and have just surrounded myself with others who are like minded

#

Very possible but imo hard to determine

#

New players might not remember anything different and will be neutral on the topic so the vast majority won't care too much is my guess.

#

I am actually curious if the current meta played in grunt dominant Era would hold up

#

I think that people are exploring veh a lot more and can likely stop the grunts now days

civic skiff
#

Some of this seems to just be meta shifts as people try new things rather than changes to core game balance

#

Whistler's weren't buffed

bright sorrel
#

Indirectly buffed

#

They had damage nerf to coms removed

thin cosmos
#

Samsungs weren't in any way

#

Oh, yeah, comm update is abomination

bright sorrel
#

They used to do like 48% damage to coms and com had regen

thin cosmos
#

Pls kill it already.

civic skiff
#

Fair, hitbox change made whistler balls a little better

idk about the com nerf changing much, whistlers already took a long time to kill coms, comms got more hp

functionally its not a massive difference I think, with com update and whistlers

#

2 minor, indirect buffs

bright sorrel
#

Raghna calculated that com regen would make up the hp difference in about 2 mins

bright sorrel
civic skiff
#

commanders got 1000hp more to compensate

thin cosmos
#

Comms also get more hp

bright sorrel
#

Lost regen to compensate for hp gains

thin cosmos
#

Harder to burst down, tho true, whistler's one of very few buffed units vs immortal comms

bright sorrel
#

Also, coms are 4k hp now right? They were 3350 before update iirc

civic skiff
#

still, its just commanders, who generally aren't doing massive amounts of tanking

the explosion nerf is more significant, its a lot more likely for T1 units to survive killing a commander now, which makes early pushes somewhat more viable

thin cosmos
#

Big part of whistler meta is that comm prevents anyone from rushing them down

civic skiff
#

The com update is causing people to invest more heavily into T1 it seems, which naturally results in vehicles, as they're the heaviest T1 units available

bright sorrel
#

Com update slowed t2 progress with half a com wreck

civic skiff
#

teching up on the frontline doesn't generally use a comwreck as you keep your com alive

bright sorrel
#

So yes, veh is very much in the meta after Indirectly buffing some veh and direct nerfs to pawn grunt and ticks

#

Teching on the front is after you kill a com

civic skiff
#

generally from personal experience, no

thin cosmos
#

It's if you either stall or kill enemy comm

civic skiff
#

reclaim T1 solar, reclaim some of your bots

thin cosmos
#

Just pressure until you start floating ~1k

#

Then t2

civic skiff
#

Generally after stabilizing the frontline on a map like glitters and poking the enemy with a light attack, either things
1: Enemy looks like they're going to push
Build some defenses
2: Enemy looks to be playing defensive
Tech
3: Enemy looks to be messing up / opportunity on another nearby front
spam blitz or grunt and raid

#

if the enemy tries to poke me out with arty, my T2 will come online before my front falls if I play it decently

#

then its hounds versus veh arty which usually goes well for the hounds

#

if they try to raid you with tank balls, apply tumbleweed

#

Should have seen my screeching when Drongo put tumbleweed in D tier, literally one of the best units in the game

#

it has 1 job its very good at, and that is deleting raids, and it does it spectacularly

#

well, other uses too, like killing certain units on the front, albiet you'd probably want bedbug then

wispy hamlet
#

Man I nolife this game for like 10+ hours a day and I don't see any of the names posting in this thread tbf, I feel like yall opinions aren't ripe enough and u need to experience more 8v8s in current meta before u offer solutions imo

thin cosmos
#

I play lob lobbies only. Sorry you dont know me.

#

Problem with trying to attack someones credentials on discord is, often they arent worse then yours.

wispy hamlet
jaunty saffron
#

Platys plays a lot in the lobby, he's the one who was doing com drops a lot and now he steals nanos with transports 😦

wispy hamlet
#

Uhhh lol

civic skiff
#

I've been playing several games a day up until this weekend as I've had stuff to do

image.png
jaunty saffron
#

you can check stats on website now
you playing on special lobby

image.png
civic skiff
little plaza
proper agate
civic skiff
#

Oh, thats useful

civic skiff
#

I think the match history rating page only shows the past 50 games

#

How does this thing do its calculations anyways, its seemingly incorrect

The correct math (weighting map winrates by games played)
0.59*(39/49)+0.4*(10/49) = 0.5512

What it looks like its doing (weighting both maps equally)
(0.4+0.59)/2 = 0.495
#

Its weighting my supreme strait winrate and all that glitters winrate the same, despite me playing 39 games on AtG and only 10 on strait

#

Even then, I've played more maps that that, this is only how it looks if you set "min games" to 9

#

This stats page only gives winrate by map, not by games played

#

Heck if I set it to 3, I can manipulate the data to make it appear I've got a 71% WR

image.png
#

This stats page isn't very useful after all

bright sorrel
#

I think it misses a lot of games but... besides the point

civic skiff
bright sorrel
#

Point of the thread. I personally don't think glass is smart to say he hasn't seen you play as I remember you pretty well.

proper agate
civic skiff
#

I admit I'm a dumbass who doesn't understand subtlety

jaunty saffron
#

Whistlers still op and making gameplay terrible to play

jolly cloud
#

MooCow suggested reducing their acceleration and maneuverability.

He later retracted this suggestion because he faced an opponent that "swoop" his Whistlers along the front at max speed.

However, I still think it's a good nerf. A safe place to start. If the Whistlers have to be maneuvered in a more careful way, and in a way that requires wide open terrain, that's a start. You could also add a small max speed nerf into the mix.

little plaza
#

on open maps bots can just go around whistlers anyway i guess ya

wispy hamlet
wispy hamlet
jolly cloud
#

Maybe reduce their vision? A problem with high speed, vision, and range is that you can engage in the battle without risk, you can deal damage without taking damage. If you reduce the vision of the Whistlers, maybe make them require LOS to fire (more than just radar) to fire, then the player using Whistlers has to have a "stake in the battle" so to speak, they have to put some units in danger at least.

restive gale
#

Make Nettle/Thistle able to shoot ground units, like in TA. Direct counter missile trucks.

thin cosmos
#

Unnerf arty.
It's fine bots are weaker in direct fight, they have all the utility.

#

And if you win the fight, you can rez enemy army and win harder

#

If rezbots are removed, I would agree to buffing t1 bots to high haven.
Not until then tho.

jaunty saffron
pine smelt
#

I think HLT can get buffs: at least reduce a lot its buildtime, current 12.5 value is just weird...
few whistlers can kill it much faster than comm+con+nano build it.
also its very vulnerable to arty and can be easily dgunned, so not worth it in most cases

#

btw why was the arty got netfs at all? i thought it was complains about missile trucks mostly.

mild oasis
#

HLTs are also just a volley of rockets away from dying 😦

thin cosmos
#

Noone knows.
Mod likes to porc in noob lobbies presumably

#

Artillery is kinda meant to kill static targets, it's the way to break turtles before t2.
Nerfing it because its OK at its job is kinda silly

lunar yoke
#

pretty sure i remember the person who made the change said they felt missile trucks followed by arty is better than straight missile trucks, so both needed to be nerfed or it would devolve into more arty spam. i don't necessarily universally agree, but the arty nerf certainly isn't making the bots vs vehs matchup and more difficult for the bots at least

#

it's just marginally reducing the incentive to make whistler+arty balls instead of pure whistler, and buying bot armies a token amount of extra time before they die if they don't kill the ball

limber hamlet
#

Someone going into missiles against another veh player is just asking to get blitzed

lunar yoke
#

a forward veh lab->missile trucks is also a more risky gambit than ever in general, whether or not missile trucks are too strong on the whole

little plaza
violet marsh
#

Missile truck dps so low it's a gamble. Also hard to balance them for 8v8 AND 1v1/2v2. They really pretty garbo in smaller teams, they just don't have the mobility or dps to gain map control

#

They are much easier to use on something like Supreme Strait, where there's just linear fighting in the middle.

#

Even there they really aren't game breaking imo

bright sorrel
#

they are supposed to be aa

#

so in small games you need them if one opponent has air

violet marsh
ashen vortex
#

Well then also sorta good against tick or light bot runby cause they hit

pine smelt
#

poor core even here nerfed more 😛

image.png
limber hamlet
#

Best counter to missile spam is legit blitz spam

#

moment you see missile trucks out it means that ennemy stopped prod of actual frontlining units

#

So rush, tho if its just for vision then you get fucked lmao

pulsar bay
#

and die to 1 llt

tight swallow
#

and dgun :P

gusty brook
#

Driving past them is an option often

lunar yoke
#

~30% janus is part of the meta comp now. Have fun with blitzes vs janus in porc, and constant light attrition from whistlers+arty

#

On anything other than maybe leak sim flats n forest

thin cosmos
#

Oh nooooo

#

Using multiple units is OP, its almost like... That was the point

#

Good luck pushing into arty, pounders and samsungs

#

If you see enemy building doomstack, you build T1 static arty to deny whole area and negate it utterly

#

Then tech to also negate it utterly

#

I played bots vs veh pure matchups, especially in smalelr maps, bots are more then capable of 1v1 enemy with veh lab and crush it. You just cant trade poorly, rez stuff and stomp it.

#

8v8 lane maps unfortunately favour veh. Still easy to deal with

lunar yoke
#
  1. samsung is the nickname for whistler, not lasher.
  2. go say any of that in any of the high level lobbies and enjoy being laughed at by everyone
thin cosmos
#

I play only in "high" lvl lobbies tho

lunar yoke
#

i am aware

thin cosmos
#

Im in 28os min one rn. Played last game, built T1 arty to negate enemy, teched and won my lane

lunar yoke
#

yes, that is how almost every lane is won in those lobbies. arm vehs.

thin cosmos
#

Its won by knowing how to play

#

I killed first enemy arty with my pawns. When I see him massing it, I just built my T1 arty and that was that

#

Now enemy cant approach with arty, samsungs or pounders cause I just pound it from mile away + his mexes are denied

lunar yoke
#

so your argument for arm vehs not being op is that you won a lane with arm vehs.

thin cosmos
#

I won it by going bots > veh > T1 arty > tech in peace when enemy went more T1 veh arty

#

I build a lot of labs you know.

#

You just have to know which is best when. And I start bots almost every time

#

How much depends on what I find on lane. If its cor, I switch imedietly because cor bots are just better

pine smelt
thin cosmos
#

Pounders op too.
Janus you can bait and outrun if you micro

#

Good luck with pounder shot

pine smelt
#

have you ever tried to play pounders to say that?

#

they are meant to be anti-spam units, but they barely can ever turn at all, and so slow that cant catch anything unless they are just trying to push into punders. But better just kill them with arty/whistlers and other long range vehs.

#

they can be good, but in VERY limited conditions

jovial crypt
#

That paragraph sounds funny if you replace pounder with centurion everywhere

thin cosmos
#

They are very good at killing clumps.
Same role as janus, but slower, more reliable and they actually have stats to 1v1 even a med tank.
Which would just kill janus.
Janus is worse if enemy pushes into you, pounder is worse when you run around with it.

ashen vortex
#

I guess it's hard to evaluate them fairly. First glimpse I would say pounder is trash and the proof is that none builds them while everyone builds Janus.
However let's say no one builds pounder cause no one does core vehicles cause core T2 veh is trash, well suddenly pounder could be "ok" but we never get to judge them because of the faction and army branch these belong to.

I would say give janus to core and pounder to arm and let's see how "very good" pounder really is. I have a guess.
@thin cosmos

thin cosmos
#

Sure.
I also want trash behemoth, switch with titan.

Also, I see ppl building them?
Last time...
Yesterday game on new map is first that comes to mind?
Which was my only lane game and it was there so idk.
Doesn't seem very rare.

echo crystal
lunar yoke
#

I've often build 1-2 pounders early if i open vehs and don't know whether someone's going to open with a bunch of scouts/infantry. If they don't do that, pounders maneuver with the medium tank line, fall way behind if it don't order medium tanks to constantly let them catch up, and generally only deal damage when the opponent disrespects them or forgets that medium tanks or thugs can easily kill them without getting in range of them.

#

If a line of infantry/scouts/blitzes is being run at your unit that is half their speed, that is pounder's niche and it will outperform janus if the infantry stays in range. Janus just beats it under literally anything that isn't that specific set of circumstances

#

If you decide to make a t1 veh lab in lategame because you're a deranged, pounder is also kinda decent as anti-spam. Kinda.

gusty brook
#

Important to note that pounder is the only vehicle that missile trucks can't shoot through

frosty kestrel
lunar yoke
#

i'm actually embarrassed that i never realized that, considering i almost exclusively play cor vehs, and have been trying to play like wolverine/lasher/pounder/brute isn't significantly worse than shellshocker/whistler/janus for months

frosty kestrel
#

The hitbox of the pounder made no sense and failed a ton of rules that were used to determine hitboxes btw

#

The yaxis of the box goes above the turret

thin cosmos
#

Comm is the best ani crowd unit still, nothing can overun that

lunar yoke
#

exclusive missile truck dies to arty, comm gets 1shotted by 5 janus

placid lynx
frosty kestrel
frosty kestrel
placid lynx
frosty kestrel
#

This area is a very costly area and more infectious then people may realize

placid lynx
#

big time z-k player, once I noticed the issue, and once it was properly described to me, I see it everywhere

frosty kestrel
#

Let me put it this way
The hitboxes were made for ba models that don’t exist anymore
That’s the scope of the size of the hitbox mess

#

Followed by needed movedeff changes and other weird behavioral changes

cedar fossil
# placid lynx what engine update would be required? I have a general gripe with box colvolumes...

Simply put, the assumed cannon trajectory used for friendly fire checks is:

  1. Just flat out wrong. Like the numbers used are wrong.
  2. Only checks at the midpoint of the friendly unit, so the projectile could pass that check, but then fall on top of the friendly unit before it clears the unit radius.
  3. It only checks the whole-object collision, it does not check the individual pieces of collision that the unit (could) use.

The straight line-checks that rockets and lasers do are unaffected by these problems.

I will be making a push to the engine today to fix that issue, so then it will just need to wait for the next release cycle.

placid lynx
gusty brook
frosty kestrel
#

I was just assuming actually thhe best possible case

gusty brook
#

the model kinda isnt the relevant part anyway - how they mesh with the BA unit scripts, firing/aiming positions etc is what counts. Idk if those were changed in a way in BAR that made them work together worse. But doesn't matter much regardless

atomic iron
#

Does that mean that if you are playing in a multiplayer lobby, there is a risk when there is a tweakunits command is called?

tight swallow
dense swift
#

The meta is stout and janus
Ratio about 5-2
While whistler can be counter with micro, this cannot be countered.

lunar yoke
#

the discussion about missile trucks in this thread stopped on july 28th.

dense swift
lunar yoke
#

mostly after the nerf. i think everyone who was talking in here knows whistler balls aren't meta anymore

dense swift