#Resource disputes and moderation

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arctic hinge
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im not disagreeing on teaching players what is griefing, standards of play and the basic norms, but i am against the moderation team alone* deciding what that is and enforcing it, without community feedback and clear rules

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example : #🛡️｜moderation-bot message

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and on moderation and censorship i dont think it should exist in the first place, but if youre getting kickbanned from every lobby youre joining, and getting tickets every time, sure ban him since hes not gonna be playing much anyways

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altho even in that case i still think he should be allowed to make his own passworded private lobbie

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i think creating longer kickban tools (default is 15 min, have options for 120 min for entire matches and 6+hrs for an entire session) is enough for most grief/ abnoxious problems, and perhaps a message "this user is kickbanned from XXX lobby, time remaining 5 hrs" when joining a new one to be able to kickbanned from the rest of the lobbies (resulting in "this user is kickbanned from 5 lobbies, minimum time remaining 4hrs") is sufficient enough

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and only when hes constantly kickbanned for multiple days mod teams comes in with multi day/ week/ month lobby ban

frail light
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EVE was built around the concept that all player actions are part of the game. That makes it a bad comparison to BAR where possible player actions or behaviours can be against the game. They do however still have a CoC/ToS which imo is largely similar in tone to BAR regarding communication and how you approach others involved with the game and community. https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/terms-of-service-en/

arctic hinge
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1, [pic], so whether in bar or in eve, player interaction is part of the game, thats why u want to moderate it, 2, their TOS got recently updated (like less than a year) and the playerbase stayed mostly the same without significant number of bans/ ppl leaving due to moderation
before the TOS change i believe only IRL threats and communication thats banned in countries were moderated, and hell, there was recently one big time guy that got absolutely decimated in game and left because that person was found out to be racist and alledgeldly doing stuff (not really appropriate here), but again, great case of community moderation

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guy did a despicable thing, ppl in that community spoke out, wiped the guy from the face of the game, and he left without the mod team ever interveneing

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and that behaviour wasnt even in game either

arctic hinge
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and credit where credit is due, this is certainly better than previous, good reasoning thats well laid out, reasonable thinking and short ban, not just a "D gunning any mex is griefing lol ure banned for 3 days"

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although it wouldnt be me if i didnt say reclaiming (retaking) ur own mex after a warning shouldnt be a warning in tthe first place, and that the escalator shouldve been given a harsher punishment, if youre insistent on moderation

heavy moth
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I'm from Stronghold: Crusader. Was top ten there, playing almost 20 years.

Using it as a case study:
There was no moderation. Players heavily moderated each other. Clans would have lists of bad actors on their websites. People would keep lists of known akas. The competitive community sorted itself out.

The game was innately bad for noobs, with a huge skill ceiling. A casual could beat a couple of his noob friends. A low level "expert" could beat several casuals. A medium expert could 1v2 low experts. A top expert could 1v2 medium experts.

Many clans formed up specifically for helping newbs learn, with ranks and training programs within their own clan.

There were many clan wars, which honestly made the whole thing fun af. All the drama and trash talk and high-stakes games for reputation.

Online community still around a bit, over 20 years no moderation.

vast shadow
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There are two aspects when it comes to community self moderation

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or rather two groups of people

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those who already play the game for long and are used to the environment, and those who are joining in fresh and are bouncing off because of the environment

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so using the argument of "i was top 10 and we all were just trash talking each other and it was ok" is fine as long as your target audience are only people who already play the game.

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but that's just my personal opinion here

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i'm playing CS2 beta right now, ranks are basically reset to newbie for everyone, and i get bullied every 2nd match because i'm total idiot in eyes of those who were many ranks above me in CSGO

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lol

heavy moth
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The game was also hard for newbs, because it's a pain in the ass to get it to actually work online. By default, the people who were there wanted to be there enough to put in the little effort. Not quite comparable to BAR.

heavy moth
# vast shadow so using the argument of "i was top 10 and we all were just trash talking each o...

https://web.archive.org/web/20071128113345/http://www.freewebs.com/goc_home/rules.htm

anti-trashtalk was socially enforced. trashtalk or be disrespectful to noobs, get kicked from the clan. clans that liked civil play were often at odds with clans that liked to trashtalk.

GENERALS OF CRUSADES - UNITY, TRUST AND ABOVE ALL LOYALTY

a gamespy Stronghold crusader clan,unity loyaty and trust being our key values

chrome frigate
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Mfers trying to argue that shit is socially enforced, when griefers regularly don’t get kickbanned

shell bolt
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It's mostly just Coura trying to argue that, and I think his takes have been pretty much refuted by now

arctic hinge
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both times the match was stopped, the player kickbanned, and game continued

arctic hinge
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anyways came here to say the mod log seems to be improving a lot, that's very good to see

arctic hinge
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i wonder if you want to create a harmonic and well mannered community at all costs, it would be too much to give warnings (never actual bans) to the "rude" ppl thats not breaking the rules per se, but not really helping the team either, like in this case #🛡️｜moderation-bot message
(but the "i steal everyones mexes because i know u cant do shit and u will get banned instead get fucked" guy still should be banned, that should be breaking the rules)

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i feel like thats the "grey area" now, as it is the responsibilty of the backliner to support the frontliner, and it would have a very positive impact on the game, as 1 persons APM/ eco doesnt leave, and can focus micro if given units/ d gun T3s/ cloak comm

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if "get off your fucking ass backliner" can tilt players and can be moderated, this should warrant a warning as well

shell bolt
arctic hinge
shell bolt
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Bloody hell, I feel like I rolled a nat 20 on persuasion

arctic hinge
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"u will be convinced"

shell bolt
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"I know of the existence of an argument that would change your mind."

heavy moth
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Narcissism is also a significant predictor of someone wanting to use authority to enforce "polite" behavior. Wanna check the scholarly world on that?

While laws can deter some assholes and bad actors, they attract another sort of slimy honorless whiny bad actors. :x

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We want a large community, sure, but do we want it to be full of emotionally fragile whiny brats that complain about anything and everything their teammates do (or don't do)? Do we want a report culture?

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You don't have to like what I'm saying, but at least be honest. There hasn't been any comprehensive refutation against me with my points about moderation. Certainly none from the mod team.

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In fact, when I brought it to a ticket, the only response I received from the mod team were backhanded insults. "Thoroughly refuted," my arse.

chrome frigate
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All that community oversight will do is make drama the primary cause of effective moderation, where having beef with a clan is enough to get targeted by an alliance

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I don’t want whiny clan brats crying to their friends that I was mean to them have any moderation power

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I’d much rather it be an independent system with clear rules and a public log

heavy moth
heavy moth
chrome frigate
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What if the clan is full of asshats?

heavy moth
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Then you don't join that clan, unless you too are an asshat. They have nice bright clan tags, so it's easy to avoid those asshats.

arctic hinge
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or you have a war against the clan full of asshats and completely decimate them and drive them out of the game, since all their shit is now gone, their clan is useless, and they can't join any others
its happened in eve multiple times before, and it just happened recently, and it will continue to happen, in eve, in other games, and in IRL too, whether anyone likes it or not (cancel culture much)

heavy moth
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Well, there are no persistent assets to lose in BAR. xD

north basin
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bar has exceptional moderation and i think it shows ingame

random adder
north basin
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vast majority of what? who's the vast majority
I played a number of other MP games and plp are more toxic / less cooperative. more slurs. yeah thicker skin environment is fine but being civilized is nice too. nice not having to deal with mud throwing all the time

random adder
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Then mod comes into lobby and renames it because it said no mods, banter allowed

shell bolt
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I don't think you can reasonably have data on the vast majority. Your bubble? Definitely

random adder
north basin
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i d/k what you seen, but modding sucks

arctic hinge
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thats why most mods are some power hungry ppl that dont have any meaning in life apart from discord / reddit moderating lol

arctic hinge
shell bolt
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No, I don't have that data either, nor am I claiming to

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I know Platys' bubble doesn't like BAR moderation, that's pretty clear by now

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But I wouldn't call that bubble the vast majority

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Nitpick of the day

north basin
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and you can hold clan members to stricter standards then simple players

arctic hinge
# shell bolt No, I don't have that data either, nor am I claiming to

no basis to the claim but i feel like the ones that doesnt like moderation are typically not on the activism/ loud on the internet type, and the ones that love moderation and will ban words like shit are also a huge overlapping group with activism/ loud on the internet group, so i think theres a pretty good chance theres a lot of ppl that dont care for it than you realise

shell bolt
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That's very possible, yeah

olive cave
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It's more likely most people don't really care either way, and that group reaaally isn't going to be shouting their opinion.

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They just want a fun game to fight robots with reasonable people

heavy moth
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Mod logs do look a little bit more lenient lately. A lot more warnings than direct suspensions/bans. 🖖

arctic hinge
vast shadow
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The amount of tickets asking "why am i banned" when it's just a warning is... pretty big

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xD

autumn wraith
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do people who are banned for alt accounts etc even realise they have something to read?

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I do wonder if there are sometimes false positives and someone is just blithely trying to sign up but being auto-yeeted, and accidentally digging a hole for someone behind the same router

vast shadow
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When you're logging in to your alt you get a message in red on the login screen telling you to contact moderation on Discord if it's a false positive

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Though so far the only false positives were "I'm playing with my brother/dad on the same computer"

heavy moth
vast shadow
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and many people can't figure this out even if the instruction is the very last sentence of the warning message

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that's what i mean

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they don't read and then come to discord tickets and ask why are they banned

heavy moth
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BAR literacy test. 😛
Any language barriers responsible?

vast shadow
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maybe

heavy moth
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--> "I acknowledge this warning" ? so its more clear what they are acknowledging ?

I guess doesn't help if they ignore these instructions altogether. :/

turbid dagger
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It's a UX issue, the message is in a place that isn't likely to be read, and isn't in a friendly format for reading

chrome frigate
somber zenith
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They ask and get whitelisted

verbal creek
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#🛡️｜moderation-bot message

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Redbar has been moderated.
Reason: CoC A3/A4 - deliberately trolling allies, non-participation. While bad play is not against the rules, we have every reason to believe that in this match (as DrawMeta), you were deliberately and intentionally throwing the match, which is not okay. You have two previous griefing offenses, which exacerbate this., Restriction: Login
Until: 2023-09-25 00:00:00 (UTC)

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Thoughts?

shell bolt
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I certainly don't think it was a resource dispute

verbal creek
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Well fuck, that's the wrong thread I suppose

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Technically the way he used his resources was cause for moderation, which caused a dispute in our team.

shell bolt
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#⭐｜main message some more explanation in #⭐｜main that I didn't want to put in the reason message, but I reworded it while some people already started reading it

arctic hinge
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where did "being bad or using weird or suboptimal tactics are never grounds for a ban" go lmao

verbal creek
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That was discussed by Perfi, because he's 35 OS with previous grievances, they took action

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But it does raise the question, where is that line drawn?

proper root
proper root
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Drawmeta very well might suffer from single or double digit IQ and thus think his strategies are helping the team and it’s impossible to prove his intent without him actually stating it. So this type of moderation breaks several rules you have in actual law in the real world where a person’s intent cannot be determined without actual statements. Being a 30-35 OS player and being moderated for his crappy strategy also goes against what @winged moth @somber zenith @shell bolt And @zinc dune previous statements about moderating higher OS players differently than how they would moderate lower OS. Therefore, this moderation is just more inconsistent unprofessional conduct by the moderation team that just constantly moves the line however much they please in whatever direction to reach a forgone outcome they personally desire that is only loosely based on actual code of conduct, which creates an untenable and unscalable environment for the longevity of the game.

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Exhibit A

winged moth
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-mute @proper root 1w Repeatedly trying to derail suggestions threads, final warning. Next time you will be blocked from posting in suggestions threads.

west idolBOT
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🔇 Muted n3zah for 1 week

winged moth
# verbal creek But it does raise the question, where is that line drawn?

Unfortunately it's a grey area. At that stage it's run by the rest of the team and if there's doubt, we don't act. In the example given by Perfi there I think it's very blatant and I'd expect a unanimous vote on the matter.

There's a big diffecense between "sub-obtimal" and "outright trolling".

placid coral
light wolf
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He would do 12 solars into infinite wind, with no build power scaling or any sort, overflow everything to team. He got asked many times to be useful to the team but he didn't cooperate and continued same gameplay resulting in 10+ kickbans. 👍was a deserved ban

shell bolt
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  • has 34 OS and has demonstrated an understanding of the game and eco in other matches
  • explicitly said something about planning to do, I don't recall exactly, the most awesome strategy ever, at the start of the match
  • has a previous history of griefing

All of these shift the priors towards deliberate trolling, and the overwatch team was indeed unanimous in the vote, even after I brought up the very point Nezah raised here, so we were comfortable making that call.

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We, with the overwatch team, vote in every single non obvious case. We take care to avoid personal bias and recuse ourselves from cases where we're directly affected.

Yeah, I get what you mean precisely because I spend a non negligible amount of time worrying about it too. But assuming we just don't care about all that? Sheesh, chill a lil'.

heavy moth
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"- Examples of griefing include teamkilling, purposefully hurting/imprisoning, capturing or reclaiming allied units without consent . . ."

Perhaps ~~> " . . . reclaiming *living allied units . . ."

To avoid confusion with reclaiming wreckage--which often happens by accident.

arctic hinge
placid coral
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last time we brought up grey areas in the grey areas thread it got limited to the one example posted at the beginning despite it being and example to bring to light broader issues

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discussion about grey areas is now a faux pas

frail light
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and the thread went wildly off-topic. If it stayed on topic and a 'here are 3 examples we want to discuss & understand each others perspectives about' i think that would likely not suffer the same fate

sudden carbon
# proper root

I reported someone else for doing this (also a pro) and they didn't even get warned.

shell bolt
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I think I recall the case you're talking about. I recently said we vote on every trolling case, and I may be off but I think that was one of the less equivocal ones. No agreement, no action.

heavy moth
sudden carbon
shell bolt
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I don't think that's how the vote came out 😦

arctic hinge
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Bigallman has been moderated.
Reason: CoC A1, A2. "Dude quit the game; it will be better for everyone" after harping on a player is not the kind of welcoming environment we want to foster in BAR. If you see a player struggle, please don't discourage them, help them or recommend they check out the Discord., Restriction: Warning reminder
Until: 2023-09-23 04:41:03 (UTC)

player saying "just leave" is not ok but the mod team saying "you should've just resigned and left" is fine?

shell bolt
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Ah, lmao, yeah, this is part of why we don't often post the full chat logs

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Good shout though, reposted with a correction that clears it up

arctic hinge
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i mean full log wouldve cleared it up, this was because it was limited log lol

bold spruce
sudden carbon
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First lab not even started until 11:30 mark.

This player is currently 27.5 TS and has previously won tournaments.

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rancid urchin
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Maybe they're just too used to 1v1 meta PandaDerp

north basin
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Maybe it's an eco build lol

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If you don't need a worker to build mexes

sour crypt
sudden carbon
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When someone can play like a 50 TS if they want in one game, then do a troll strat of a 0 TS player the next game, the balance is ruined.

velvet mirage
sudden carbon
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If you just read the link you will see.

sudden carbon
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@shell bolt can we have an explanation on why the first example is a 5-day ban but the second example, even though more egregious doesn't even get a warning?

IMG_4980.png image.png
pallid plume
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Are smurf accounts allowed? Or is this guy so good at evading the system? Thats some troll shit right there.

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When even MBT says (in the game you are discussing) its a high os trying to get low os when MBT himself says (an hour ago on twitch) he has an alt account to troll low os making 1500 wind turbines 😄

haughty basin
pallid plume
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I watched the recent replay of the guy you blurred and its 100% a smurf but hes very entertaining trying his best to look like a noob, however he shows his potential in the end of having extreme resource efficiency.

sudden carbon
shell bolt
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Well, I double checked. Remember the point about "the moderation team consists of people"? Turns out the conversation was a mess in multiple places, so it was hard to keep track of it all - I'm partially to blame for that. But I went through most things that were said, asked the team for another vote just to double check if what we've learned from the drawmeta case changes things, and the result was still a vote for no action.

I don't have the time this weekend to get into an extended explanation, but tldr context matters, and in this case we still wouldn't act. The player having played tournaments before doesn't come into it.

I'll remind you that we're all people, we're figuring out how to do this. If processes and actions and standards change over time, I honestly think that's for the better.

If it reoccurs, please report again.

sudden carbon
shell bolt
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Yeah, sorry to say but spending time with family comes first

sudden carbon
shell bolt
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-remindme 56h get back to this

west idolBOT
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Set a reminder in 2 days and 8 hours from now (<t:1695652475:f>)
View reminders with the reminders command

sudden carbon
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Perfi — 09/20/2023 8:38 PM

has 34 OS and has demonstrated an understanding of the game and eco in other matches

Perfi — Today at 11:14 PM

The player having played tournaments before doesn't come into it.

(note that not only did he play, but he won)

Seems contradictory to me.

spark leaf
# proper root

maybe he was actually playing for FUN while drunk and at that given time his real OS was more like 5; so that does not prove trolling aka "intentional bad play to make your team lose"

heavy moth
# shell bolt Well, I double checked. Remember the point about "the moderation team consists o...

A minor caveat related to the human condition, from personal experience:

I was once an admin in a philosophy group of some 50k+ members. Similar to rts, as a realm of iNtElLeCtUaLs, there were a lot of big egos. The admins would often bicker about how to do things, retaliate against each other, try to oust each other, etc. Real petty shet. The drama was like Game of Thrones scale, to the point that the owner of the group eventually got fed up and closed it all down.

Just something to be wary of as the game grows, if more admins/mods are needed to keep up with reports.

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Meanwhile, mod bot list is looking a bit less aggressive. As a matter of science, I'd be curious to see how often Warnings translate to repeat offenses.

bold spruce
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it’s always a problem, when you give people power in online communities especially to people, who are not used to have it.

Since being nearly anonymous such powergames can easily take place.

Also some people might exaggerate every little flame and handing out bans as it partially happened in the LoL public tribunal (especially there you had imo skilledwise partially bad players, who got sometimes blamed for losses and then kinda „retaliated“ in tribunal on random people)

west idolBOT
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Reminder for @shell bolt

Reminder from YAGPDB

get back to this

sudden carbon
shell bolt
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We get how these two cases definitely look similar at a glance, and we get how you may be more personally invested in the older case given you've personally reported it. However, all it comes down to is that in the more recent case, we were quite reasonably sure the fellow was trolling; in the other, there was enough reasonable doubt about the intentionality of it and sufficient disagreement within the team to make that not so obvious. Agreement => action; no agreement => no action, simple as that.

I can't speak for the whole team on that particular matter but I can honestly tell you that player having played tournaments before made no impact at least on my voice in that discussion... because I hadn't been here at the time those took place, and I had no clue he had participated in them!

I'm sorry that this answer is probably unsatisfying, but at the same time, we can't always present all the additional context we have, and I'm afraid this - to call back to the original title of this thread - will have to remain something of a "gray area".

If you have reasonable doubt in any such case, please flag them, we'll give each and every one of them a fair look through.

autumn wraith
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IMO there's also the question of 'were they drunk/stoned', maybe they were baked, who knows, and that's not against rules

arctic hinge
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if the whole point of "we dont punish bad players/ suboptimal plays/ trying "new" tactics" is because u dont punish bad players, whether through skill or (temporary) impairment, and cuz most of all theres no concrete evidence that hes the one playing and hes trolling (unless he typed in chat "i will be trolling") why should any of this be banned