#Can We Talk About T3?

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

midnight ginkgo
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Maybe the solution would be to triple the cost of the gantry? RLRPC balance would need changed alongside, but maybe that's the solution? Extend T2 so you just plain have more stuff?

soft echo
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nah but no t2 units can really push through pulsars, and most struggle with pop up arti too so it would just lead to lots of porc

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I do kind of like the idea of gating lolcannon and afus behind a t3 constructor but arm can go razorbacks and vanguards off fus eco no problem so that would also probably nerf core

midnight ginkgo
burnt shard
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grunts are cheaper and have greater range

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They were OP, then they were nerfed

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In 1v1's core used to be the only viable choice due to how OP grunts extra range was

midnight ginkgo
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I don't miss OP grunts.

soft echo
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yeah ik grunts were op before, but now they're just kinda bad. i would like if they got a small damage buff

midnight ginkgo
soft echo
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oh yeah but those die to ticks

midnight ginkgo
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lol

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Everything dies to ticks, including pulsars. 😛

soft echo
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I've been playing mostly core since this thread opened, partially to prove a point, but instead a point has been proven to me. thor and razorbacks are just by far the best units in the game (relative to the times they're active), and in particular, core doesn't have much of anything to mitigate them

twilit iris
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Grunts can't aim properly, it makes early scouting little bit rng battle.

midnight ginkgo
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My personal opinion is that the best unit in the game is the humble Thug. That dude does work.

craggy storm
burnt shard
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Catapult has 1350, idk what you mean

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They're basically equal

midnight ginkgo
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Eh, there are other ways of dealing with them that outranging them. Like I said, the starburst vehicles can single-salvo them for equivalent metal. And those are stealthy, so a juno won't help you.

burnt shard
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Perhaps its not widely the consensus, but defensive turrets are generally quite bad in this game, especially alone

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T2 popup's have only minor advantages over equivalent resources spent in tanks for the cost of not being able to move where they are needed

craggy storm
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the fact that the pulsar has 50 range on the catapult means that it outranges every non-building unit in the game, which imo is too much range on a defensive static

drowsy abyss
burnt shard
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The pulsar is mediocre and doesn't deserve a nerf in the slightest, its one advantage is its big range and burst damage

soft echo
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i don't mind pulsars being the ultimate tower with the longest range, leads to all sorts of great defensive outplays

midnight ginkgo
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Why shouldn't the longest-range static have more range than the longest-range mobile? That seems like backwards thinking.

burnt shard
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Its standard in ""OTHER"" rts games that siege units always outrange statics

soft echo
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definitely don't think pulsar is mediocre in any way, but I don't think it needs a nerf.

bulwark on the other hand i think is bad and needs a buff

burnt shard
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In BAR's case, its more complicated, abuse the fact that pulsar doesn't have 1400 LOS and bring a radar jammer to get in range without it shooting back

drowsy abyss
midnight ginkgo
craggy storm
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congratulations, you now have a static that can't be dealt with safely without the use of other statics

autumn heron
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good that cortex equivalent is 950 range and just dies to vanguards

craggy storm
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there are ways around stealth

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radar plane LoS outranges any AA other than static long range AA

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tick spam gives easy LoS

burnt shard
whole glacier
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Sheldons crush early t3

soft echo
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sheldons have such low dps

craggy storm
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i'd like to see 30 sheldons kill 10 microed marauders

autumn heron
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lmao who is saying that 30 sheldons can kill 10 marauders?

craggy storm
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costwise you can probably get more marauders for that many sheldons

midnight ginkgo
craggy storm
midnight ginkgo
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fighters?

craggy storm
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enemy also has fighters

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with more vision

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and this has just become an air war just to deny the vision of a static unit so that you can try to siege it safely

midnight ginkgo
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Sounds like you want all defenses to have a counter that is itself completely uncounterable.

craggy storm
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uncounterable by statics? yes

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the answer is to go there and kill it, not porc up

midnight ginkgo
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The counters you were listing aren't statics. Ticks aren't static, radar planes aren't staic, fighters aren't static.

craggy storm
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fair

warm ether
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To reiterate my earlier point, the "simplest" fix to core t3 would be a 20% speed buff to all t3 gantry units. If cor "can" deal with 95 speed marauders, the arm can deal with 60 speed shivas. Jug and behe would also be much more viable to use if they don't take 5 minutes to reach a frontline. Too bad this thread is indeed constantly derailed and probably has no chance of making any changes to balance. Creating a separate thread for every unit would maybe be better just for visibility.

whole glacier
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Front line gantry only choice

drowsy abyss
craggy storm
midnight ginkgo
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If they do have vision on you, you can always bring 5 starbursts instead. The pulsar will kill one, but the other 4 will get their shots off and kill it anyway. Still a very good trade.

whole glacier
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Do you mean starlights?

atomic gate
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No, eat some Starbursts for a big apm boost

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Super reaction time to dodge shots

midnight ginkgo
whole glacier
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negotiator or something yeah.

midnight ginkgo
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Starburst is the weapon type. Dunno if it’s called that anymore.

drowsy abyss
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Nah now anti-nukes have "starburst" weapons

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Oh actually yeah the stealth rocket launchers do use Starburst launchers... Weird

fringe folio
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brah

past briar
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Starburst describes the flight path.

sturdy edge
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armada t3 feels like all their units except for vanguards are standalone units, they perform their function near full capacity without needing addition of a proper composition.

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you can simply rush 3 razorbacks if u get a lead and roll in an Edge lane on open maps, same with marauders, if map isnt as wide 3 thors can almost push anything if u make it early enough.

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Meanwhile on cortex any unit needs about 2-3 different units from different tiers to even make it viable

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like how am i supposed to counter 27min 3 thors

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it kills comms, has enough damage to kill almost all beefy units, is unparalyzable by shurikens, has enough hp to get emp missiles off before dying to pulsars, counters spamm by itself

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literally does almost everything with the cheapass price of 9k

drowsy abyss
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I've found that cor t2 advanced cloaking walking bombs do more damage to thors than expected, I needed about 5-6 to kill a thor

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Very very niche application tho

sturdy edge
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yeah that wont happen in most games

drowsy abyss
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Add to the fact you have to be a micro god for it too

sturdy edge
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cortex t1-midt2 phase feels so versatile, fast, micro intensive

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and then theres this gantry which changes the whole fucking style to units that walk slower than 2 legged horses

drowsy abyss
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I am once again asking for the demon to be added to cor T3 so we can continue being versatile, fast, micro intensive abominations on the battlefield

sturdy edge
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like just fucking remove the behemoth and replace it with a buffed mammoth

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i wud unironically make that for 4k metal

drowsy abyss
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Blue beam laser mammoth would be nice thiswatched

sturdy edge
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t1 thugs/grunts> t2 sheldon>fusion>fiends>sumos>spybots>shurikens> "oh fuck they getting t3" >mammoths>mammoths>more mammoths

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thats my usual progression in the game

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maybe t2 air at the last

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if map is open

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i dont even know what to make on cortex as backline on lategame

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maybe need the op t2 transport auto pickup + mammoth spam

craggy storm
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Nukes and spybots, that's what you make lategame

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And frontline catalyst

drowsy abyss
stoic isle
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now i just make 1 jug to scare ppl and lol cannon

craggy storm
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Make a defensive behemoth to cover for your lolcannon

dark compass
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do people actually make defensive Behemoths ? never seen it before

craggy storm
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If you think about it defensive behemoth should work decently well against other t3

dark compass
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idd but the idea that Behemoths are useless has travelled far in people's minds

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need a forward thinker to do it, like Momsboytoy

serene thorn
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MBT mostly plays Arm, from what I recall

dark compass
craggy storm
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I'll just do it the next game my eco player tells me, the air player, to build a lolcannon because i have the eco for it and not him...

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Tbf i had already made 5-6 juggs at that point and had killed half of the enemy players

vocal needle
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Behemoths are great when going against Thors. They’re practically a hard counter. Can’t get paralyzed, can’t have themselves blown up by several nukes, they hold their ground, pulverize any T3 unit other than another Behemoth… they’re very very strong.

craggy storm
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Until they get kited

vocal needle
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Well yes but I don't expect people to just make them out on the field alone

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You need other units that will be the main provision of firepower to push forward in assaulting enemy positions and to protect from D guns

warm ether
sturdy edge
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not rocketscience + weeb pfp so opinion kinda invalid

soft echo
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i built a behemoth again last night

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took like 8 mins to reach the enemy base then got dgunned while i was lookign away xd

sturdy edge
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yeah just not a good unit

soft echo
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i continue to think behemoths are hilarious

sturdy edge
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imagine 20 mammoths instead of 1 behemoth

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mammoths kill t3+spam+soak dmg for support units

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and have enough range and number not to be dgunned

soft echo
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yeah but they're not nearly as funny.

behemoths are like the ultimate bm unit

sturdy edge
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true

eager grove
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Change cortex allterain t3 units weapon type from missiles to gatling lasers

soft echo
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nah make behemoth all terrain instead

eager grove
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Cortex t3 = fixed

sturdy edge
craggy storm
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Give it gatling plasma guns with like 800 range

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It can abuse its all terrain for extra range on plasma

vocal needle
velvet vapor
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I feel like the design choice of "slow and durable, low utility" simply does not work. All of the places where Cortex feels good (t1 in general, t2 bots only), they have options for faster units and utility.

cosmic merlin
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I don't think the problem is core t3, just more Dgun being very strong, as core's "assault options" similar to a razorback, thor or a titan are locked behind a very steep metal cost in the form of a behemoth and Juggernaut. So that high cost means the number of assertive assault units core has is proportioinally a lot less so the dgun threat is much higher compared to ARM t3 where the units are cheaper and more numerous.

Shivas are a support unit, and are great in conjuntion with other anti swarm units like sumos or mammoths.

Catapults are very good units for their role and are not affected by plasma deflector like the armada option.

Karens are very good in niche situations for scaling walls, passing porc, and also creating holes in fighter screens for potential bombing raid.

Obviously Behemoth and Juggernaut are the best units in the game stats wise. Just D gun completely nullifies single entities like this.

Opinions over.

velvet vapor
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Is it just dgun though? People in this thread are mentioning that Cortex t3 also fails against t1 spam, air, and pulsars.

pulsar glade
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Core T3 needs a marauder or gattling bot equivalent

cosmic merlin
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t3 doesnt offer much for anti swarm, fortunatley t3 is not the only tech in the game and core t3 can be mixed with units from other tiers.

velvet vapor
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That's the whole point though, Armada t3 doesn't need to be mixed. It's just strong on its own.

cosmic merlin
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then go play armada

velvet vapor
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So the fix to cortex t3 being underwhelming is... abandon cortex? C'mon man, why are you even in this thread.

cosmic merlin
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I mean basically what your mindset seems to me is there is one tier and one tier only and thats wrong. Build units from other tiers to compliemtn the strengths and weaknesses of cores t3. If you want to build only t3 units, go play armada

velvet vapor
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Aight bro, very helpful comments.

cosmic merlin
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just my opinion no need to get sarcastic and dismissive

autumn heron
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so whats your solution oli to dgun?

cosmic merlin
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fix dgun obviously

autumn heron
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we agree that dgun just feels bad for cortex, but i dont think they will make jugg or behe dgun immune

cosmic merlin
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commander in general is just bonkers op

craggy storm
autumn heron
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100% agree on that

cosmic merlin
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yeah i'd say core vehicles are very strong in earlier t2 an for establishing a larger frontline on more open maps, for cleaning up t1 units, fury is very good AA to spread across the fronline, has anti nuke and also tigers with enough can punch through and knock out a greedy backliner. Then you basically scale into the late game with bots and t3.

But I would say that in a perfect death ball core t3 + heavy t2 bots is better.

cosmic merlin
# autumn heron we agree that dgun just feels bad for cortex, but i dont think they will make ju...

Yeah maybe not make something d gun immune but maybe add some sort of counterplay to the dgun, or stealth, like a mobile nemisis or something that allows you to atleast get some early warning about cloaked commanders. Thats usually the problem with balance issues is lack of counterplay but I don't really know what the counterplay to a unit is that can potentially one shot a 20000 or 29000 metal unit is.

jaunty herald
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What if the dgun took half the jugs current hp off instead of all of it?

cosmic merlin
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you can spam the dgun consecutively provided you have 500 energy, whcih by late game you will have

autumn heron
cosmic merlin
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behemoths actually one shot comms, so if you space them, you force them to trade their comm. So late game it can work but they gotta be low on comm so they are not as cocky

velvet vapor
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What if behemoth and jugg did enough death damage at close range that it one shot a com? So you can't dgun that often, or at all if it's the last com.

jaunty herald
cosmic merlin
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Doesnt matter what I think tho i'm not a dev but you got my opinion atleast 😂

jaunty herald
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It might not even be possible with the current game code, it might just be a flag is_killed_by_dgun=true/false

cosmic merlin
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yeah but I mean every weapon must have a damage value, so, change and rename the weapon. But like I duno if the devs would do that its suppost to be a TA remake right so, d gun was in TA.

craggy storm
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Dgun does a specific amount of damage per frame

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Behes and juggs can survive dgun if they are as far away from thr com while still being hittable by dgun

dark compass
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then just make it so that Behemoths need two D guns to die

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that makes the D gun damage at 167500

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you can still kill anything in the game with one shot, as a Jug is 149000

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dunno about Scav units though, how much is a Ratte ?

cosmic merlin
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D gun would probably need an ICD too.

oblique axle
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clutch dgun plays are one of the most hype, most skill expressive moments in the game. I would be strongly against making them less viable. Fix T3 in other ways.

autumn heron
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I agree with Cali

dark compass
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yeah it's hilarious to see, and it's a skill, but with my solution you'd still be able to do it on juggs, thors, titans...

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just would need two shots for behemoths

burnt shard
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I think that'd be okay honestly

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I wouldn't like specific dgun immunity, heck I still dont see why commanders need dgun immunity, but if its base damage was lowered to not 1-shot behemoths meh'

autumn heron
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you can multi tap dgun with minimal delay. without internal cd it wont fix anything, and giving dgun cd would change t1 and t2 gameplay as well.

dark compass
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nothing's ever easy, heh

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make Behemoths transportable and you got the best T3 unit ever peepoCantSleep

autumn heron
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such change would be meta defining like the commander update. its the least likely change the team would be willing to make currently imho, and its much bigger change than just changing cor gantry.
a lot of plays/saves are thanks to how dgun works currently - changing how dgun works changes everything from the first minute of the game.

cosmic merlin
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dgun alone shuts down a lot of units and plays. The only upside is it removes wrecks in the process so u dont feed metal

warm ether
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Increase jug speed from 34 to 40, now its barely faster than commander, and so you can try and kite if you notice the commander dot/expect enemy coms nearby. Increase behe speed from 17 to 22, so its not completely meme unit while still being slowest unit in game.

oblique axle
whole glacier
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Need more t2 air trans com drops

dark compass
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can you D gun a flying hydra ?

stoic isle
dark compass
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oh wow that's some next level micro

atomic gate
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I think first person mode is removed in BAR

last sable
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kargs do well agaisnt air and light units spam..also they have good range

craggy storm
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do they? they fire their missiles fast enough that when the first target dies the missiles will just not retarget

dull tiger
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Yeah Kargs waste a huge amount of their dps on smaller units, if they upgraded to seeking missile it would be a huge benefit to them and might even make them competitive outside their cliff climbing niche

last sable
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homing missiles is always boring

drowsy abyss
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I think buffing t1 plasma turrets will help the Kargs yes? 🤣

whole glacier
atomic gate
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Ba didn't have it for a while

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It's back now though afaik

dark compass
buoyant moat
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I still think increasing kargs fire rate and or move speed would be a great start; kargs aren't awful but they aren't that good.

Giving it a better rof would make it feel more comparable to the razorback, and seeing all the little missiles shoot off in rapid succession I think would be very satisfying.

whole glacier
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If you put the karg stats onto a razorback

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Would be insane. At the price, proper fast targeting would be unreal.

sturdy edge
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kargs currently have a really slow turret rotation speed

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literal hell to micro them as if u try to dodge shots with them, they will never fire

hardy shadow
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just give cortex a frontline t3 unit that costs less than 10k and isnt all terrain or amphibious , actually take amphibious away from shiva and buff + raise cost a bit and now marauder is unique, cortex has a t3 hover anyway its not the end of the world if shivas cant swim.

Thats the easiest solution i can think of that wont take long at all to do.

Shivas in general feel like a very poorly designed unit, they are cheap yet they are somehow designed to do everything, they even have a weird unguided rocket that is just gonna miss 99% of the time because its attached to a shorter range frontline unit that is obviously gonna be targeting other units and not structures farther away.

jaunty herald
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That t3 hover is so slow :/

vocal needle
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I agree about the Shivas, but in the complete opposite direction of what was just stated. Marauders don’t need another advantage over Cortex units, so unless we’re getting a unit that would replace the amphibious role the Shiva should absolutely not receive a rework

autumn heron
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for those wondering:
Zecrus is thinking about changes to kargs: 50%+ cost, 50%+ dps, 25%+ hp

drowsy abyss
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DPS and HP increase is nice (hp more so) but the lack of homing still makes it so that we lost a lot of DPS either way when an enemy is killed

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I'll take anything we core players can get

sturdy edge
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so i can micro them atleast

hardy shadow
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it just doubles down on that being all cortex can do early t3

sturdy edge
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why will he want to change its role

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it needs tweaking, not a role change

hardy shadow
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if its gonna stay as a flank unit then it doesnt need tweaking lol

whole glacier
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If Shiva didn't friendly fire so often that'd be nice

faint wren
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Just committed some changes to T3:
• [Shiva] Weapon reloadtime reduced by 33% (3s->2s), damage per shot reduced 33% (900->600), turret turnrate increased. Script and hitbox adjusted to reduce friendly fire.
• [Karganeth] Cost increased by 50% (1650->2500m), damage per shot increased by 50% (120->180 per shot, dps 400->600), health increased by 25% (10000->12500), model size increased slightly. Goal is to differentiate Karganeth and Shiva by increasing Karganeth's size and making it better at fighting single targets units while Shiva is better at dealing with large amounts of small units.

hardy shadow
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that makes sense but shivas missile still feels like a weird addon.

bright whale
hardy shadow
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make behemoth take less damage when not getting flanked, boom its now a frontline unit that can slowly push as long as you support it and dont let anything around it.

left condor
left condor
hardy shadow
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why would you ever build the t3 cortex hover

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actually vice versa why would you ever build shiva when you could just build t3 hover

left condor
hardy shadow
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it has a torpedo

left condor
# hardy shadow it has a torpedo

then instead make missle AOE, problem solved, as someone has said prior, for a anti spam siege mech, that missle is only good at attacking static targets

jaunty herald
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Could the missile be made to only attack static targets? So it would hit the base with the missiles at range and keep units off itself with the guns?

cosmic merlin
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What shiva does need is their plasma cannons to not friendly fire each other when they are in a tight formation.

serene thorn
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You probably still shouldn't thugball them

autumn heron
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slow down guys the changes just dropped, lets play with it for a good while.

serene thorn
keen stratus
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Test with the karg.
To let the missiles retarget a new unit, if the unit they were heading towards dies

hardy shadow
serene thorn
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I make no claims about how balanced that is, but hot damn that's beautiful for the macross missile massacre faction Cortex is

oblique axle
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does the new retarget work on air targets also?

bright whale
hearty marlin
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i want that Karg

jaunty herald
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I want 10 of those.

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Seeing that makes me think. Could the catapult missiles be given an anti-homing feature where they turn away from friendlies in the last part of their flight path?

craggy storm
sturdy edge
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holy

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Very pog changes, will try it. Thanks for listening to our whining

drowsy abyss
vocal needle
whole glacier
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My right-click doesn't work so it's impossibly hard for me to not ball up my shivas lol

craggy storm
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Swap right click and left click then kek

round hearth
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what i feel like shivas might do less friendly fire if main cannon projectile speed was bit faster. turrets speed change was nice. but i think shiva was working better dealing with single target units/little tankier units than smaller units and kargi was working better dealing with smaller units and with karg damage change it works even better at that.

craggy storm
cosmic merlin
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I tested the shiva, they still friendly fire. They need something so the plasma doesn't damage each other

midnight ginkgo
cosmic merlin
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they fire a shot from one of their arms, and it collides with the shiva next to them

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seems like the AI is there to stop the shiva firing if something obstructs the shot, but if a shot is fired and the shiva moves into the shot like within a milisecond or something they hit each other

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i think the solution is to make it so the shot deals no damage for 0.3 seconds or something and passes through

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lowering the damage is a band aid not a fix

round hearth
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they are predicting where enemy unit would be and cause flight time of shot the enemy unit would be near the shiva but current change made it so that the shivas die slower cause damage lover.

midnight ginkgo
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It’s possible to make shots pass through friendlies while still preventing aiming through friendlies. That may or may not be the solution here.

cosmic merlin
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like in a real situation, with actual responsive units, shiva is clunky because of this, the unit itself is fine, always was, its just its clumsyness that is the problem

faint wren
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Before this update the shiva hitbox was just high enough that shivas in a group would try to fire over each other but sometimes hit the shiva right in front of them, now they fire over each other properly with the hitbox lowered slightly

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Faster projectiles or predictboost could be used to increase the plasma accuracy, but shiva is already very strong and being able to use micro to dodge shots is interesting gameplay

keen stratus
# faint wren Before this update the shiva hitbox was just high enough that shivas in a group ...

I still got shivas to hit the shiva in front of them. The hitbox lowering just adjusts the positioning neded to do this a little bit.

But that is actually an engine issue. The way the engine is performing the trajectory prediction is subtly messed up.

  1. The predicted parabolic arc trajectory is slightly off. This is most obvious for high trajectory units. Engine thinks the shot will travel higher than it actually does.
  2. The collision check is only done at the center of the unit in the way. So it does not check if the cannon shot will clip the corner of a cylindrical hitbox.

[Thugs also suffer from this issue]

round hearth
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not best example but something like this

cosmic merlin
round hearth
faint wren
keen stratus
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Video of shiva friendly firing.
(One day I will knuckle down and make an engine PR to solve a bunch of friendly fire problems, from shivas, to thugs, to grunts, to centurions)

hardy shadow
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the rocket is unironically more useful than the plasma because it actually consistently goes over other shivas

potent owl
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this is an engine level issue
it cannot handle a weapon with 2 emmiter points

hardy shadow
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it even killed ONE single grunt per rocket consistently

hardy shadow
potent owl
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no

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but
you can define each arm to be its own plasma gun

hardy shadow
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thats what i just said

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"no, but actually yes"

potent owl
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not the way you worded it
its just semantics dw

last sable
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i think afus and rapid lrpcs should move to a t3 con.

keen stratus
potent owl
keen stratus
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Even T1 tanks

image.png
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2 Emit points does make the problem way worse.
The engine updating the query point after the friendly fire checks, but before firing the projectile, causes all sorts of problems.
But the above is a separate issue with the cannon friendly fire check itself.

past briar
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if Itanthias becomes an engine dev he will become more powerful than we can possibly imagine

keen stratus
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Another fun fact about the buffed karg.
It can survive a cortex nuke to the forehead, with ~7% HP remaining.

twilit iris
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nice no need for mobile anti nuke

mellow seal
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Oh wow, could it not before? I generally thought that almost all T3 units outside of maybe Marauders could survive a nuke with a decent bit of HP left

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Anyway, while I really do like the direction of these changes, I'm really wondering if these are the best stats to buff on the Karg in order to turn it into a priority target killer. Of course, a damage buff is great, and bringing the general stats/cost up to the same neighborhood as the Razorback makes sense, but I wonder if instead of an HP buff, it might be better served with light buffs to range/movement speed to make it a bit better at kiting around much larger, tougher enemies like the Thor, Jugg or Titan.

twilit iris
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With new retargeting it could be really awesome unit, we need to try it now.

keen stratus
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#🎲｜github-game message
Missile retargeting merged in.
Now if the target dies, all karg missiles that were heading towards that target unit get a new target and steer towards that new target

mellow seal
#

True true, the retargeting looks fantastic, especially as an anti-spam measure. That said, I do also notice that the damage per cost is still about the same (both increased by 50%), but the HP per cost is actually lower now. If we're just looking at raw stats alone, this could arguably be seen as an overall nerf to the unit, unless I've missed something. Are there plans to perhaps bump up a few other numbers during this period of testing the changes, if the size change and targetting change aren't enough to bring the unit into a better spot?

keen stratus
#

You have to keep in mind it is now a more power-dense unit.
For a given length of battlefield, kargs are now more powerful.

faint wren
#

If you scale up all stats by the same amount it ends up being a large buff since you have a higher power density, its easier to retreat, and you lose less power from taking damage.

#

Just for an example, if you had unit A and unit B that has double A's health and damage, and B fights against 2 As, B kills one A after taking 50% damage, then kills the other taking 25% damage, so B wins with 25% health left.

mellow seal
#

That's a fair point, thanks for explaining

craggy storm
#

but then you take AoE and flanking into consideration and it's a bit more of a mess

soft echo
#

scale the range up 50% too and now we're talking xd

keen stratus
#

And 2 new kargs vs 3 old kargs, with perfect focus firing like how Zecrus mentioned, the 3 old kargs do end up winning, but the last one only has 3750 HP left, 12.5% of the initial health pool (not the naive 25% you would expect).
Due to the 2 new kargs able to kill off 1 old karg early, reducing their DPS early.

mellow seal
#

Oh yeah, I was thinking on it just a bit earlier. While I am ultimately fine with this direction for the buffs, I can also imagine a world where the role of the Shiva and the role of the Karg were swapped, at least in terms of cost. A less cost-dense unit will be able to field more total units, and thus have an easier time covering potential flank angles (in theory, at least), so I can imagine an alternate version of these buffs where the AoE damage buffs are given to the same unit that has its cost increased, and the single-target damage buffs are given to the unit that stays cheaper.

Again, though, there are so many factors at play here that I can't really argue that my alternate idea is actually any better than what's already been done.

mellow seal
keen stratus
#

Juggernaut stats per metal are pretty terrible, but it is so much power concentrated into one location, juggernaut is still a good unit. It keeps attacking at full power right up until it reaches 0 HP

last sable
#

@faint wrenyeah except it goes other way as well since at half price a unit is out the door while the bigger unit needs to take long to build. also seperate untis can be sent different directions one unit cant etc..

it is true that stats probably do not have a linear relationship with cost

#

though without actually doing some data analysis its hard to say much more

hardy shadow
#

trick question the answer is they are both almost equally good but in this case youre getting another 250 hp for free

mellow seal
#

Well, you're describing a case where the same coefficient is applied to all 3 stats, instead of one where cost is increased more than HP. In such a case, compressing the stats into a single unit of double the cost is always going to be better, unless you start looking at flanking bonuses.

hardy shadow
#

my point is karganeth is an all terrain unit with consistent dps now

mellow seal
#

That's not what changed; it was an all-terrain unit with consistent DPS before as well. The biggest change now, if I'm properly understanding the explanations earlier, is that you can fit more effective DPS into a given area on the battlefield, and take more damage before you start to lose total DPS output.

midnight ginkgo
#

And the missiles don't overkill because they retarget. That's important.

mellow seal
#

Yeah, that's honestly the part that is probably gonna be fantastic, but I'll have to play with it a lot before I can tell whether it's a "pretty nice to have" sorta feature or a "holy crap it's amazing, this is THE reason to build karg" sorta feature. It'll probably come down to A: how much damage each individual missile can do, and B: which units in the game have HP numbers that are just slightly less than some multiple of the single missile damage. Those are the units that will take damage most efficiently from the new Karg

soft echo
#

I played a lil bit with the new shivas, they feel nicer. Would like if their projectiles traveled just a bit faster though still

#

im not sure if the lobby I was in had post-targeting update karganeths, but I didn't really notice anything about them in particular

midnight ginkgo
#

Let's be honest, Cortex T3 is gonna be bad until Marauders get nerfed into the ground.

mellow seal
#

Ehhhhhhhhh, I don't think it's honestly terrible. Marauders are super crazy good, sure, but I would honestly rather see Core start to get a low-mid cost T3 option that can compete specifically with Thors and Razorbacks, and Kargs might just be moving into that role.

#

Arm early T3 generally seems to have 2 options to flex its earlyness on enemy teams: either do a massive marauder rush against eco (which, while tough, CAN be overcome by less-teched opponents), or get Razorbacks to the frontlines to stomp underteched enemy armies that don't have the damage output to take them down. I'm actually perfectly fine with Core not having a Marauder equivalent at T3 if, instead, they're getting a second option for early T3 on the frontline. Shivas will probably be going from "eh, sorta alright at pushing a lead" to "Pretty damn good at killing weaker units, but not quite as good as the Razorback due to lower cost" from these changes, and the Karg will be different enough that it's not just a "Shiva but worse in every way except terrain movement".

covert cove
#

Karg is better razorback with the changes

#

700 range, 600 dps on its main missiles I think?

#

With pretty significant dedicated aa too

#

Razorback deals 500dps at 400 range

#

Also, same hp, much cheaper

#

Trades speed for all terrain

#

It should be brought to at least razorback price tag as is.

craggy storm
#

speed is arguable more valuable than all terrain and razorbacks can take advantage of that by closing the distance more easily to deal more damage than kargs

serene thorn
#

ngl I'm playing core on Ascendancy top lane next time

craggy storm
#

but (haven't played with new karg myself) i can see the value of upping the price a bit more if it feels overpowering

bright whale
#

Instead of just going with my gut I wanted to take a look at some real stats to compare the 2 factions. Here's what I think:

Long Range (Catapult vs Vanguard): ARM slightly favored

  • Both get a decent amount of use and have different benefits but seem to be fairly balanced. I see both being used a lot.

Cheap (Shiva vs Marauder): ARM moderately favored

  • Marauder has some really excellent uses as a raiding unit and generally has better stats per metal

High DPS (Karganeth vs Razorback): Core slightly favored?

  • On paper the new Karganeth seems to look very strong, only worse in speed compared to Razorback but with a solid range & mobility advantage.

Tank (Behemoth vs Thor): ARM heavily favored

  • Thor is absolutely great, costs only 9000, is very fast, has utility with EMP. Behemoth is a bit of a joke and a d-gun magnet.

Apex (Juggernaught vs Titan): Equal

  • Very similar on paper, Jugg is twice the cost but twice the stats. Jugg position in meta is weakened a bit due to existence of lolcannon for only 2x the cost.

Conclusion - Make Behemoth good, buff Shiva a bit more:

  • Shiva: Rocket range to 800->1000, DPS 407 -> 509
  • Behemoth: Needs a major rework, I suggest a Cerberus on top so that it can actually push fronts instead of just being a dgun magnet.
image.png
serene thorn
#

That may be fun, but I'd still prefer to hold off on further changes until the meta settles around the new Shiva and Karg 🙂 Give it, say, two weeks?

craggy storm
bright whale
craggy storm
#

it does make the difference in outrangeing t1 plasma arty though, right? (which i understand isn't a big concern but still)

bright whale
#

If the opponent still has T1 arty when you have T3, you're already winning.

#

Some would argue - If your opponent has T1 arty, you're already winning.

covert cove
#

It cN reliably take down rattlesnake and even pulsar defenses

#

Splash is pretty generous & you can bait pulsar shot with a grunt

bright whale
#

The splash is not enough to dps through a couple of nanos behind.

covert cove
#

I like catapult over vanguard.
Especially because it's mobility is superior on open ground

#

Which is most places ppl camp & fortify

covert cove
bright whale
#

Would be nice if we had stats on just how many of these units are built.

covert cove
#

Not nearly as many as ppl should

#

For both of them.
Also, you can't block catapult shooting at you in late game

oblique axle
#

The karg is not better than razorback. The shoulder rockets are aa only as far as I know, and 700 range. So karg's real dps is less than on paper, and ground range is only 600. Kargs use cases are pretty much the same as before. The only minor change is that in a skirmish or defense role you might be able to repair them instead of losing them to burst damage.

covert cove
#

So, how much dps do the main rockets have?

#

Still more then razor with lots more range & aoe

#

It is better in razorback role unless enemy just doesn't have units.
In that case, razor is faster & can actually use his higher close range dps to deal the dmg

bright whale
#

I think the role of Karg has changed, now it's basically a better Shiva. I should update the table to show only primary weapons tho.

image.png
dark compass
#

I think it's now time to realize that the answer to the question in topic was just "yes, we can"

#

no need for more

hardy shadow
#

karg seems to be somewhat more like a razorback now

autumn heron
#

I will reiterate, slow down guys. The changes just dropped, and they are significant - especially kargs changes. It will take up to a month for meta to settle.
Will we see more cortex t3? Is more work required for the core t3? Is the cor t3 op now?
Maybe, hard to tell.

Just come back to it in few weeks, after the dust settles. Any glaring issues will just pop up with the meta changes (or lack of them)

dark compass
#

you could just bring 3-4 Catapult right by enemy defenses, wipe them out bit by bit and then the whole base

craggy storm
#

i absolutely think that should be the case, i don't want porc to have the ability to shut down all units

dark compass
#

it doesn't you just need to use some T1 spam to distract the turrets and THEN use your catapults/vanguard to destroy them

#

IMO that makes it just the right balance

craggy storm
#

i don't think t1 spam should be the answer to anything

dark compass
#

well I would prefer if the answer to T2 heavy turrets were T2 tanky planes but T1 spam works better atm pepeFeelsBadMan

craggy storm
#

i just believe that proper siege units should be able to outrange any non-long range artillery static

#

that's kind of the whole point of siege

#

well either that or being able to trade cost effectively with those statics

#

which the pulsar is just like "lol no"

dark compass
#

I just love the Pulsar, the Bulwark is so pathetic next to it

covert cove
#

It is.
It's much nicer against spam mixed in with t2, especially unmicroed, but pulsar is supreme at heavy hitting things.

hardy shadow
#

Im okay with a siege unit out ranging static as long as it can be blocked by a shield or has such low health that a lrpc can kill it relatively easily

craggy storm
#

catapult has pretty low health for its cost

hardy shadow
#

Also if siege units become way better than static defenses then they become a part of static defenses

#

And catapults certainly can if you just have them force fire the ground on repeat

craggy storm
#

i'm not asking for catapult to be way better, it has pretty bad single target damage, i'm asking for it to outrange a pulsar, either by reducing pulsar range (my recommendation) or by increasing both catapult and vaguard range (not recommended)

#

it's not like this would cause the pulsar to lose its place

hardy shadow
#

Lol i want pulsar range nerf too just because i play cortex

dark compass
#

you can still outrange Pulsar with some units

#

something called "ships" 😄

hardy shadow
#

I hate longbow

craggy storm
#

ah yes, just let me build a flagship on forge...

hardy shadow
#

Idk why but i feel like i see cortex t3 most often on really large open maps but not on maps like supreme strait

covert cove
#

It happens often on strait too, if game goes long enough

#

Early t3 is better for armada, but late game t3 is no match.

dark compass
#

are more and more people trying the lolcannon rush now ?

hardy shadow
#

Yes

craggy storm
#

theoretically strait should favor cor

dark compass
#

Drongos videos are getting popular

covert cove
#

No idea, I play sort of lobbies that that's just elaborate suicide in

craggy storm
#

in shorter games cor has the advantage because of a better early t2 while in long games cor has the better late t3

hardy shadow
#

I had a dude on my team who started building an lol cannon like 10 minutes into the game (never finished it)

dark compass
#

Drongo's way is the way I usually do it. Just tons of planes. But the way he can switch between factories so quickly is quite skilled, I can't do that

hardy shadow
#

Also ytbers in games with a small community like this tend to be known by the entire community, well content creators in general

craggy storm
#

i still don't understand the point of making 8 air labs in drongo's vids

hardy shadow
#

Rolloff time

craggy storm
#

air lab already has an incredibly short duration where it stop making things when units are made

dark compass
craggy storm
#

you can make something like 3 units/sec with an air lab

hardy shadow
#

Ya you want 2 at most lol

covert cove
#

It's significant if you are pouring out 100s a minute

dark compass
#

he's kinda still learning the game anyway

hardy shadow
#

And everyone learns with em for better or for worse content creators have a big impact on the meta

dark compass
#

like he'll do mass bombing runs with... T1 planes. And they get shredded almost every time. Maybe soon he'll think "wait, hey, T2 bombers !"

hardy shadow
#

I had that effect on ss13 and got stuff nerfed/removed cause people copied me

Drongo could unironically make behemoth rush look good to the avg viewer

dark compass
#

yes coz as a youtuber, he doesn't show you the failed attempts of such a rush, so you think "hey that's viable"

hardy shadow
#

Yes

covert cove
#

His rushes are too all or nothing

#

Relaying on noone to touch you 20 min is poor strategy in real game

hardy shadow
#

All rushes are all or nothing thanks to things like d gun

dark compass
#

good luck D-gunning a Ragnarok on top of a mountain

hardy shadow
#

Things like d-gun

#

The equivalent to that is just winning before raggy

craggy storm
#

Or doing any eco damage before then

dark compass
#

I have yet to try this new Cortex T3

#

but this all stems from the original TA idea : Core is just slow and fat

covert cove
#

Try spiders

#

Razorback, but aoe, cheaper & longer range

hardy shadow
#

Cortex t3 is slow fat units that are all having an identity crisis except catapult

#

Which is slow and fat but knows what it wants to do

dark compass
#

also it comes down to design. I find Armada units really slick and pleasing

#

Cortex units are just ugly ducklings

covert cove
#

We should get custom t3 gantry

#

Everyone picks 4 t3 units they like most

hardy shadow
#

Also at the end of the day while a unit can have stats to compensate for being slow it doesnt usually make up for how easy it is to emp or something else

dark compass
#

that's a fair point Mr Cow

hardy shadow
#

I started using spy bots and fiends alot yesterday and i killed so many shivas as a frontliner fighting a teched backliner

covert cove
#

cough
Titan

dark compass
#

yes, as you progress I feel like spy bot needs to be part of your toolbelt

#

it's just very micro intensive which I hate 😦

covert cove
#

Doesn't really, its just really good

hardy shadow
#

I started using them alot

dark compass
#

I have not seen anyone have Commando as a part of their toolbelt yet though emothinxD

craggy storm
#

Spybot OP

hardy shadow
#

I even have them within my factory build order on repeat and i use them to emp faster than i build em

dark compass
#

speaking of EMP

#

did you know Stilettos EMP subs too ? saw that yesterday by accident

covert cove
#

lol

#

Once emped fleet on strait with spybots

#

Then dgunned them all

hardy shadow
#

You dont even need to get a clutch emp on am army on lane maps

#

Just take a spybot to the lane of the two best people in the game and emp the enemy lane

covert cove
#

They help immensely

hardy shadow
#

Momsboytoy (guy with really high os) had 2 bulwarks and a bunch of frontline pork so i spy bot them and then their laner pushed them back 2/3rds of the map because 10k worth of defenses became useless

#

All it takes is one video of someone using spybots alot esp to counter t3 and all of a sudden you have spybot meta and nemesis on frontline

dark compass
#

I'm a Momsboytoy fan

#

this guy will try the craziest tactics

hardy shadow
#

Hes a good cortex player

#

He does what i try to do, shove frontline then just pork and tech up

covert cove
#

He's good, but inflated rn

hardy shadow
#

Na he carries the game hes in

dark compass
#

I was sad not to see him in the 4v4 tournament, where was he...

covert cove
#

He parties with ppl a lot

hardy shadow
#

I played with and against him alot yesterday

covert cove
#

Fun seeing 2 ppl with most ts on same team

hardy shadow
#

Oh is that why i kept seeing that the other team would have the 2 highest while mine had the lowest lol

#

I turned off ts view cause it tilted me

#

But ya he plays cortex and hes been most of the cortex t3 i saw yesterday

covert cove
#

I saw way more cortex t3 yesterday

hardy shadow
#

Me too

covert cove
#

Time for armada buffs :3

hardy shadow
#

My first time really grinding in a remotely mid-high level lobby people are alot more toxic than in noob lobbies

dark compass
#

maybe that T3 hovercraft isn't so great...

hardy shadow
#

Yes armada t3 is all good units that have niches

covert cove
#

I mean, "prp" lobby yesterday was packed with inflated ppl

hardy shadow
#

Lol people implied i was inflated but after 10 or so games with em im still 20+

covert cove
hardy shadow
#

I got into alot of fights with people tho

hardy shadow
#

It seems like a good single target unit that you put behind thors to help push and then self d it when you get in deep enough

dark compass
#

also to go back on topic, is there any way to have that stupid Juggernaut fire the yellow cannon actually at the unit you're telling it to attack ? It'll often use it on surrounding weak units 😦

covert cove
hardy shadow
#

Does it also take 10 seconds

covert cove
#

*self d

hardy shadow
#

Also youre paying alot less for one

covert cove
#

Half, you aren't getting half a jagg for it

stuck saddle
#

But you need to be very careful

midnight ginkgo
#

Mobile units should not outrange pulsars unless we're gonna significantly buff LRPC fire rate.

stuck saddle
#

Like i said its so close its almost not even worth it, also it cost way more metal than pulsar

#

Its not really a counter even tbh

#

Just saying its possible

midnight ginkgo
#

Yeah, the true counter for pulsars is the vehicle starburst launchers. T3 doesn't have a true counter for them, because T3 is incomplete by design.

stuck saddle
#

I think t3 assumes the hp ability to walk in and kill. And also the resource to make tacnuke emp or lolcannon lrpc

#

I think of it at income levels instead of individual unit capability

#

Because someone at t3 can easily make t2 starburst launchers if they desire

#

One of my favorite parts of bar is how lower tiers can still be relevant lategame

#

I would hate to see one tier dominate entire game

#

You need to be rlly careful when touching bar balance cuz it can throw everthing off super easily obv

keen stratus
# stuck saddle You need to be rlly careful when touching bar balance cuz it can throw everthing...

My goodness yes.
I come in December, find marauder unit script is busted, figured I would give them a small quality of life bonus by letting them fire on the move.
And along the way, change them from a tank movement class to a bot movement class (why was this bipod using tank movement?)
And oops, they are a raiding terror now.

Or the small infantry adjustments really affecting bot vs veh matchups.

On the other hand, the hovertanks got a whole new depth charge launcher bolted onto them, and I still barely see them used to good effect on Supreme.

dark compass
stuck saddle
#

Yep, or comupdate and ppl complaining about more comdrops xD

dark compass
#

comdrops a thing coz immune to D gun ?

stuck saddle
#

Ive seen multiple threads

dark compass
#

I saw com drops by Raghna way before the com update tbf, he simply was the only one with the balls to do it

stuck saddle
midnight ginkgo
#

On the other hand, the hovertanks got a whole new depth charge launcher bolted onto them, and I still barely see them used to good effect on Supreme.

Probably because subs are not very good. Hard-countered by a unit you'll build anyway for its long-range gun.

stuck saddle
dark compass
#

Anyway, the Marauder upgrade is a good thing. That unit was useless before the upgrade. Now it's found its niche : early T3 raids.

midnight ginkgo
dark compass
dark compass
#

the number of backline players who just go pure ECO and are like "I'll just blame my frontline if something goes through" is atrocious. Just add some static defense, the bare minimum

midnight ginkgo
#

Here, I'll show you why I care so much about Marauders:

image.png
#

It's not Straight I'm worried about. It's my own map.

stuck saddle
#

Busted

dark compass
#

I'm getting an overdose of Straight btw

#

can't people play something else ?

hardy shadow
#

Yes im talking about supreme strait where they tend to decide games despite always going in from the same 2 places

midnight ginkgo
#

I agree they're counterable in a chokepoint. But look at the map above and tell me your plan there.

hardy shadow
#

Porc in your bases, there is no frontline

#

Or just have a single unit building walls

mellow seal
#

To be honest, I'm really more of the opinion that Catapult is (and should be) more of a zone denial tool for thinning out units that attempt to mass up before charging. If anything, I'd almost prefer for T2 static popup arty get slightly adjusted so that it can match up well against pulsars. That's a topic for a different thread, though.

dark compass
keen stratus
hardy shadow
#

That reminds me of a TA campaign map

dark compass
#

I always have torpedo planes on patrol on such maps

#

Barb AI insanely good at these amphibious landings btw

midnight ginkgo
#

Ok, I'll quit being anxious about this until I release the map and see what happens.

drowsy abyss
hardy shadow
#

Yea

drowsy abyss
#

Good times good times

whole glacier
hardy shadow
#

i feel like the real issue with cortex t3 in general is conflicting weapon systems that dont synergize and dont have the unit logic to support it

#

shiva is meant to be anti spam? nice! but it has a rocket that doesnt compliment that and if you try to use that rocket on a static structure its gonna try to walk up to shorter range where its plasma cannons reach

The same is true for juggernaut, long range laser and rockets but it wants to walk up with its gauss shotguns which are meant to counter spam

round hearth
#

kargis anti t1 spam shiva siege/everything else behemoth tank

hardy shadow
#

shiva plasma balls are definitely advertised as being anti spam

lean junco
#

Shiva's plasma is great against regular T1 armies or lower HP units, like Hounds, but fairly useless against actual deliberate spam.
Is why I suggested the idea of giving it a modest chin mounted laser turret.
Relatively short range and low damage, very much a token extra compared to it's main weapons, but enough to make it harder to overwhelm with cheap spam units.
Would prevent it's plasma cannons having to 4000% overkill random half HP pawns, and help allow it to deal it's actual intended DPS to it's actual intended targets, without being chewed up by flankers or dieing to it's own friendly fire.

dark compass
#

in cups, navy is HEAVILY underused it's sad

midnight ginkgo
velvet vapor
dark compass
#

to be fair they were claiming Marauder is advanced T2 before the december upgrade

#

and now it's "meh Marauder OP" even though it didn't get any health point upgrade

velvet vapor
#

Tbf, "advanced T2" and "OP" aren't mutually exclusive. 😛

But t3 hovers are good on open water when going up against a navy, kinda mediocre on land, and awful at surprise attacks or raiding. There's very little incentive for land players to build them instead of t2 amphibious units, t3 amphibious mechs, or just holding off and making titans and juggs. The only situation where I see them used is on strait by a back line player helping a water player win a late game navy battle. On every other map with a mix of water + land lanes, the water is either too narrow (eight horses), the distances are too long (sulphur springs), or they literally cannot be built (deeploria fields or any other water-only map).

They feel more like a unit that should be made by navy players to get on land after they win their lane, but like I said, water players literally cannot make this unit.

dark compass
#

the T3 hovercraft also has torpedos

#

so yeah it's a water unit for sure, shouldn't be T3

velvet vapor
#

They would see a lot more play if they were available at t2 tech. For their price, I feel like they're in a good position, but by the time you have the ability to make them you generally have much more impactful options.

dark compass
#

also turtles and lunkheads look too much alike

#

$unit turtle

mystic gateBOT
dark compass
#

$unit lunkhead

mystic gateBOT
solar finch
#

What if behemoths were immune to dgun

potent owl
round hearth
hardy shadow
#

it wouldnt be op it would be a waste of a buff

#

just put an adv radar remotely near it or spam grunts / pawns around it nobody gonna d-gun it

#

id say it gets too easily countered by snipers/pulsars/starlights but you spent 20k on a behemoth therefore you can probably afford 5k on a catapult to sit behind it

pulsar glade
#

I think being able to Dgun t3 units is good for the commander, that way theres an incentive to keep him around for late game besides the build power

sturdy edge
#

Delete behemoths please

#

Most deletable unit after platypus

hardy shadow
#

behemoth looks alot like the unit from the TA escalation mod

#

where it was a slow lumbering siege unit that actually had range

plucky pulsar
#

How are people doing with the changes to shiva and karganeth? Did it fix the lab to you?

#

For me, Shiva is still way underpowered and without a role - the changes weren't significant. Karganeth is still too slow and too weak to go head-to-head with arm T3 in the early late game. I think we need better/different changes than this.

plucky pulsar
dark compass
#

I noticed Razorback has some "not shooting" issue too

#

like it will fire at some unit, then stop for some reason, then decide to start firing again

#

at first I thought the devs included an overheating limitation in the razorback but I highlyt doubt they'd go that far, more likely it's a bug 😄

plucky pulsar
#

haven't noticed that and sounds buggy, got a replay?

dark compass
#

I'll check if it's reproducible and get back to you. It was against AI

#

I was like "ffs shoot the damn thing, it's right in front of you, what are you doing"

velvet vapor
#

The new Kargs feel pretty good actually. They are still somewhat fragile but I'm okay with that.

#

Shivas feel better, but I don't like them still. I feel like too much of their on-paper power is tied up in that rocket, and that rocket never actually does anything. It's only useful for static defense, and if your shiva is in range to hit static D with that rocket, it's mostly t1 static D and you're better off just rolling through everything with the main cannon.

#

Maybe if that rocket was given a less parabolic arc and a bit more speed it would feel better.

drowsy abyss
velvet vapor
#

Not a huge speed increase, maybe like 10%, and an arc similar to banishers.

drowsy abyss
inner tide
autumn heron
#

true, i dont play enough and games end so quickly lately, but yeah kargs feels much better than before. Dropping them on the field actually feels that they provide meaningful change.

inner tide
#

4 of them can actually fight a thor, so that's pretty nice. Cortex was lacking in some big unit killers.

velvet vapor
#

Most of the time that rocket either hits nothing or hits your own stuff that has moved up into the space that was just cleared by the shivas' main cannon.

#

They can hit themselves with that rocket.

drowsy abyss
drowsy abyss
inner tide
#

I saw we just pull the rocket off and frankenstein an LLT laser on. lol

drowsy abyss
#

maybe we can add a flamethrower to it

velvet vapor
#

That's why I think we can start with a less parabolic and slightly faster rocket similar to the banisher (minus the guiding) and see how it goes.

drowsy abyss
#

i think a laser may be more appropriate

#

or we get rid of rocket entirely and add a second depth charger

velvet vapor
#

Karg has fast homing rockets which are different. But if we wanna avoid rockets for shivas because there's too many rockets, we could try a 2nd plasma cannon with longer range, lower damage, and a slight parabolic arc kinda like t2 artillery.

serene thorn
velvet vapor
#

I'm also not sure how it would work with the Shiva model if the rocket were removed/replaced. The model has a hatch on the back that opens up into the rocket launcher.

twilit iris
round hearth
whole glacier
#

Shivas are so fucking good now if you get them out early

#

Karg still a bit of a meme. Just loses so hard to razorback in any comparison except all terrain

hardy shadow
#

doesnt 3 karg beat 2 razorback if they kite?

drowsy abyss
#

Maybe something like a beefed up tzar-tiger bot

#

Tzar cannon on the back Gauss cannons on arms... Or I guess a hound with both weapons on at the same time lol

velvet vapor
#

Their main cannon is already fairly like a tzar shot, but that could also be moved to the back and the front is a faster gauss cannon.

covert cove
#

Like... No. Its much better then a razor rn

burnt shard
#

razorback dps is double and the range diff is 225

#

albeit karg costs ~1/2

covert cove
#

Also, lasers, unlike aoe rockets

#

So Razor does 500 dmg at 470 range

#

Crab does like 600 at 600

burnt shard
#

honestly, I'll agree with you Karg's dont seem that bad compared to razors looking at the stats

#

biggest thing I'll note is karg has 45 speed to razors 69

covert cove
#

Yeah, mobility is an issue, but lets be honest, other is all terrain and costs 2/3rds

burnt shard
#

I think they're about evenly matched, with Karg you'll have to spread them in a line on your front to prevent them simply being ran around by razors under most circumstances

#

This lets the razor player focus their razors, for example charging all of them tightly packed at part of your karg line

#

still, if you micro your cargs to counter this I think you'd win

#

However if you left them sitting still you'd probably loose

#

Razors have an advantage tactically as they get to choose the engagement under many circumstances due to superior speed

#

still, not as if karg's are helpless, half cost but 10k hp to razors 13k hp gives a karg group a lot more hp than an equal cost razor group

#

I admit much of this is speculation, I never played core T3 much as I prefered to try to end the game with bombing or earlier with tigers and rarely played techer spots

hardy shadow
#

lasers do half damage at max range the razorback needs to continue closing the gap to get more and more of its actual dps

covert cove
#

And diffrence in DPS/metal isnt that big either way

whole glacier
#

Lol stop 'baiting stats and play the game

#

Kargs just don't do anything you want them to. Only reason to have them is they're the only AA for core t3 and maaaaybe some concentrated dps. Everything else just add extra shiva

burnt shard
#

idk, looking through stats is a good way to come up with new strategies

shiva has almot the same health, longer range and similar dps to karg

#

slightly lower dps and hp but also slightly lower hp

eager grove
#

Just give the karg gatling lasers instead of missiles. Problem = fixed

It's now a cortex razor back with the added sbility to be all terrain.

hardy shadow
#

then its op...

#

at the end of the day half of cortex t3 is amphibious or all terrain and therefore isnt designed to be your main frontline

eager grove
#

I'll break down t3 units in this simple example.

ARM t3 units actually feel like T 2.5 to T4 units.

Maurader being a 2.5,

The razorback is T3

And the rest are T4 units.

Cortex feel like T2.5, and T5 units.

There is no T3 or T4 to balance it their roster. There is simply a massive jump from. A T2.5 units to a T5 unit selection.

hardy shadow
#

marauder isnt 2.5 just because its combat stats reflect that, it has absurd mobility and relatively okay aa ontop of being amphibious

All of those things packed into a single unit and only possible because of the powerbudget of a unit produced by a t3 factory

Otherwise fiends would be tier 1.5 for their low armor and range

#

Likewise people consider mammoth tier 2.5 largely due to their stats and metal cost but their limitations reflect that they are comparable to the t2 roster

mellow seal
#

I'm honestly fine with Marauders for the most part, though I would not complain about an HP nerf to reduce their ability to just run past statics (and thus lower the "Marauder tax" players must spend to defend their flanks from raids). I think having a uniquely strong raiding unit that can cause a sudden and powerful change in game state in favor of a player who hits T3 first and properly exploits it is a perfect strength for Arm to have.

On the flipside, though, I think Cortex lacks the "hitting T3 early and suddenly changing the dynamics of the match" factor that Arm is so good at. The early T3 units should, imo, not just be a bigger and meaner set of stats, but also an opportunity to make a new tactic suddenly possible. Even though Shivas are overall pretty strong units that counter a particular class of unit quite well, their strength is mostly reactive (you build them to counter spam without sacrificing too much generalized power) rather than proactive (you usually don't build Shivas as part of a plan to do something specific). Kargs are maybe a bit better off, as they at least enable new approach paths.

Awhile back (in this message: #1118255116747804682 message) I came up with the idea to give Core a new mid-low cost T3 unit in the form of a tac nuke missile truck. It would have to be given a lot of drawbacks when compared to the Catalyst (since we really don't want a super passive tac nuke meta to come back), but as long as it has high burst damage, slow missile speed, and a longer range than Pulsars, it would give Core a "here's a new tactic I can do" unit (busting open heavy porc and moving straight through the frontline more efficiently than would be possible otherwise). This would, in turn, give Core players a very concrete reason why they might want to tech up to T3 even if their eco isn't strong enough for them to go for the super strong units like Juggernauts.

So yeah, tl;dr devs please add more nukes plz ty ❤️

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eager grove
#

Give Cortex an amphibious, all terrain spider unit.

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A REAL all terrain bot that can go a anywhere and not inhibit is ability to fight

midnight ginkgo
#

What if that unit was the karganeth?

eager grove
#

Can the karg crawl through water and still fight?

midnight ginkgo
#

Not currently, I'm speaking hypothetically

eager grove
#

Give it the ability to walk through water unaffected, give it gatling lasers, and maybe 1000 more health

#

Cortex now have a viable t3 raiding unit

mellow seal
#

Respectfully disagree; Both factions have good options for attacking from flanks and raiding, but Arm is based around mobility and clever use of firepower, so it makes sense for it to have a T3 unit that's the best at that. I would prefer for Core to get something that's the best at what Core is designed around: Instead of going around defenses, be able to go right through them.

eager grove
midnight ginkgo
#

Take the cortorch concept and turn it into a T3 bulldozer?

mellow seal
#

Ehhhhh, while I wouldn't mind that, we already have the Biggest Baddest Fattest Sumo (Behemoth)

eager grove
mellow seal
#

Ooh, giant bulldozer that has melee range but just flattens porc would be FUNNY and really cool (but I'm still more of a fan of my missile truck idea, if we're talking about porc killers and enabling heavy pushes into fortifications)

midnight ginkgo
#

Not just a giant bulldozer, a giant bulldozer with a rocket engine on the back

eager grove
#

The behemoth needs to set uff nukes for each step it takes

hardy shadow
mellow seal
#

Yeah, the reasons for jumping to T3 should be similar to the reasons for jumping to T2: The higher tech units, aside from general strength, often enable completely new tactics that simply are not remotely possible with the lower tier. (also, don't count out early Sheldons as a tactic for punishing T1 efficiently. They're pretty similar to Hounds in this use case.)

lean junco
#

I want to add a thisplusone to the idea of a mobile Core tac nuke. A cortex scud launcher.
The recurring weakness of Core T3 here isn't really that they're bad at their jobs, but that they all do the same headbutt the front door tactic.
They're strategically blunt instruments. And awkward as that is, it's by design.
So if Coretex is going to be the "go through the front door" faction, then we might as well give them some genuinely unique tricks in how they accomplish that.

hardy shadow
#

"open na noor" -cortex t3

hearty marlin
#

i vote for both the mobile scud nuke and a fast-moving, super-short-ranged unit that has good amounts of health and goes nuclear when it dies but has absolutely abysmal turn speed
imagine a battering ram with a nuke inside and a jet on it's back

#

to me, that's what Cortex is all about:
pure force, everything else be damned

vocal needle
stoic isle
vocal needle
#

Forgot about that unit…

drowsy abyss
#

Send in army as fodder, nuke racecar zooms in through the chaos for a straight shot to the eco, ded

#

Though I feel like this is a unit better for Legion than cortex since legion already has something akin to suicide bombers

midnight ginkgo
#

So does cortex

warped sigil
#

Just enable scav units for the OP tumbleweed

midnight ginkgo
#

The problem with scav units is you can't enable just one.

hearty marlin
#

not exactly a suicide unit
iz would be a weak combat unit that is effectively a weapon equipped nuke on wheels
imagine a tankier, fast comm without dgun and the weapon system of let's say 2 tigers/sumos/idk

#

like, yea, fair, it's primary damage potential is the nuke 😄
but it would be able to fight off basic harassment

#

ofc might be better as a tankier mini-nuke that you can't ignore, but doesn't pose major damage so it's not too OP with the nuke, so not that OP, not sure

for those who know Sion from LoL, I'm kinda thinking of something like his ult in a way I guess 🤔

vocal needle
#

Add a rocket AA pack on the back

hearty marlin
#

are we making a Legion Commander Lvl4? xD

#

i actually would like to see if the idea is even feasible and functional 🤔
makes me want to play around with creating new units and etc in bar (without modelling ofc) 😄
if I go crazy enough to do it at one point, i'll come back here 😄

jaunty herald
#

Whatever happened to the nuclear mines from TA?

drowsy abyss
#

taken out for balance purposes i think

#

i think cortex has something similar to them, the cloaked crawling amphibious mines

hearty marlin
#

not nearly as strong as a nuke tho
even the tactical one (at least in my experience)

drowsy abyss
#

They still pack a punch, 6 kills a thor

autumn heron
#

Fiddling with t3 bit more:
I think kargs are amazing now, especially vs spam with the rocket change. In fact, I would exclusively use kargs most of the times, unless I meet heavy porc where I need some long range dmg ( hello arbiters )
The best combination currently is probably karg spam + 1-2 catas. Didn't have a proper long game to test it out yet though - the games are super volatile lately > . >

stoic isle
#

my only main problem is still vanguard and its ungodly amount of hp

dark compass
#

$unit vanguard

mystic gateBOT
dark compass
#

well

#

Karganeth now has 12500 HP (previously 10000)

hardy shadow
#

Damn thats almost double hp/metal of catapult

#

But isnt its range kind of bad

dark compass
#

yeah when it comes to T3 you can't do a head to head comparison. Otherwise you could say "meh Jug > Titan why is that"

hardy shadow
#

Nvm similar range what about aoe

dark compass
#

so its cheaper in metal and energy than Catapult, has the same range, 64% more HP

#

but it's not the same use at all. Vanguard you put on top of difficult terrain to harass. Catapult you can put right behind the front line to destroy everything with a barrage of rockets

#

correct me if I'm talking rubbish

keen stratus
#

The number of times I crawl a karg up to a nest of vanguards perched up somewhere, expecting to at least chase them off, and instead they just point their guns at the karg and point blank annihilate the karg, while tanking damage from the karg, is too high

dark compass
#

it's basically a mobile turret on top of a mountain

#

on forge the central mountain is full of Vanguards peepoCantSleep

#

and when it's on top of a mountain, Pulsars and Starlights can't shoot at it anymore

hardy shadow
#

Their dps is kind of crazy for a unit that has a single large aoe per hit , like catapult cant even use its entire dps against a single target cause its just a bunch of tiny explosions spread really far out

dark compass
#

yeah but it's ultra slow

hardy shadow
#

But catapult does enough damage to kill sharpshooters and starlights thats all it exists for anyway

#

While vanguard gets stopped by plasma shields but is stronger against big targets ig

dark compass
#

yeah the counter for Vanguards is plasma bubbles

hardy shadow
#

If only they wernt so expensive

dark compass
#

for Catapult you need air or Pulsars

#

Pulsars barely outrange catapults, they don't one shot them though, you need two hits

hardy shadow
#

Dont plasma shields cost like 1k while recharging i wonder how much e it uses up to recover from a single vanguard shot

#

I should test that cause thats alot of metal if you convert every 600 to 10

dark compass
#

the state of the game as I see it is this : people have mastered how to use every single Armada T3 units except Lunkheads. There's replays, countless "this T3 armada unit is OP" threads. For Core ? not really. Jug play is a classic of course, and Shivas are quite popular. But Karg and Capapults ? You don't see them winning games, unlike Marauders, Razorbacks or Vanguards. Hopefully the Karg buff changes that.

#

and that tachyon T3 hover is cute, but not very durable

hardy shadow
#

Everytime i see jug get used they dont self d it and the only time i used a jug in a decent os game i didnt know it was 10 seconds lol

dark compass
#

it's tricky to self D a Jug in time, it's 10 sec

#

and you need to self D once in enemy base, except by then every unit in the area is attacking you, so you don't usually have 10 sec...

hardy shadow
#

I think its better to self d early than late if the explosion is as large as advertised

craggy storm
dark compass
#

meh

#

Tiger is also a bad name, those tanks are not exactly fast

craggy storm
#

Tiger is the fastest "tank" in the game

#

I wouldn't call jaguar a tank

dark compass
#

well they just called it Tiger coz of WW2

hardy shadow
#

Cortex has alot of slow units imagine how op it would be if they got a new t3 that was just an armored vehicle transport to carry sumos and mammoths to front and effectively close the gap for them

lean junco
#

The part of the Tiger's name that is perhaps less fitting, is that it's key feature is it's durability, not it's offensive abilty.

hardy shadow
#

Fast and tanky = you can easily send it back to repair anyway

#

Tiger looks like thug gameplay 2.0

dark compass
#

can Sharpshooters one shot Tigers ? or Starlights maybe ?

lean junco
#

Yeah. A lot of people look down on the Tiger, but it's worked well for me.
You just got to know that it's not intended to be used like a Bull. It's a tanky screening unit for other sources of DPS.

hardy shadow
#

Idk tiger health but it costs more than sumo

dark compass
#

ok. I know for sure Pulsars one shot both sumos and tigers

hardy shadow
#

Whats e cost for sharpshooter to fire

lean junco
#

7.9 HP to metal ratio. Is very few units that beat that efficiency ratio, and the ones that do are generally far slower.
(Bull has 4.8 HP to metal, for reference. Nearly half as durable.)

keen stratus
#

Pretty sure it takes 3 sniper shots to kill a tiger.
And 3 point blank starlight shots (5 at max range due to laser falloff).

craggy storm
#

tigers have over 5k+ HP and snipers do 2.5k damage per shot, so minimum 3 shots to kill a tiger

craggy storm
keen stratus
#

Correct, snipers do not have damage falloff, but the veh starlight does

hardy shadow
#

I assume energy draw on sniper is pretty extreme then

#

Wiki says its just 500e compared to adv converters thats like 8.333 metal per shot

#

If a sniper spends all day shooting ticks its still being cost efficient , ya its wasting shots but lol

stoic isle
wide furnace
serene thorn
#

Itanthias would know best

#

I've also happened to test it and tachyon in BAR is a fancy name for another laser

keen stratus
#

It has weapontype = "BeamLaser", and the default minIntensity value, so Starlight and Tachyon both do 50% of their sticker damage at max range.

lean junco
#

Charge your Starlights forwards for maximum damage! :v

solar finch
#

Back to the original idea, I want behemoths to have a built in nano

drowsy abyss
#

Why?

jaunty herald
#

Because an unblockable weapon that never misses, doesn't need line of sight, gives you metal when it kills units and can repair friendly units would be awesome? 😆

hardy shadow
#

if behemoth had nanos they would literally be giant garbage collectors that go through wreckage fields

#

which imo already is cortex`s identity with t2 bots, strong frontline units that forces everyone else to kite back and abandon wreckage fields

keen stratus
#

It has those dinky red lasers on the front and top. Could be funny to replace those with nano turrets

hardy shadow
#

those dinky red lasers only exist so your 20k metal investment doesnt die to ticks xd

lean junco
hardy shadow
#

shivas have the worst identity crisis ive ever seen xd

drowsy abyss
#

Tho a giant vacuum on a walking d-gun machine would be funny lol

#

imagine if it had a magnet feature like in supcom2

mellow seal
#

Okay this might be a really stupid idea, but I just had it, and now I can't get it out of my head.

What if the Behemoth had a built-in plasma deflector? It'd make it require either specialized attackers or a close range attack to do damage effectively to it, and it would help keep slow T3 units relevant in the lolcannon era of a match.

That said, however, I don't actually think the primary killers of Behemoths are plasma anyway (most damage is probably done by lasers from Pulsars, or by Dguns), and a single deflector won't do a ton against a lolcannon unless it's given a much better recharge rate than the existing structures)

burnt shard
#

plasma deflectors are kind of poorly balanced

stoic isle
#

it now bounce into enemy eco etc pepeyep

burnt shard
#

plasma deflectors completely disable certain units and tend to fuck over core a lot more

mellow seal
burnt shard
#

sheldon, shiva, tiger, tsar

stoic isle
#

heat tiger the only solution

burnt shard
#

most arm units dont use plasma weapons, snipers, jaguar

#

well, I suppsoe fat bou, hounds and sprinters do, but if your considering attacking a defense position, your using snipers

stoic isle
#

think the main problem sniper actually hardly really see a plasma shield

burnt shard
#

where as core tends to sheldon which are blocked

#

arbiter could wor kbut they're kind of shit

#

T2 missile vehicles aren't very good anyways I guess

hardy shadow
#

rocket vehicles are aoe and stealth

#

behemoth would be cool if it actually doubled down on the flank damage mechanic

#

and it became something youd have to surround to kill in a reasonable amount of time

sturdy edge
#

:] or tacnuke if its in front

#

also tremor apparently just kills the plasma shield

burnt shard
#

well tremor overloads it

stoic isle
#

tremor is rich man toy

sturdy edge
#

armada's emp missiles

#

fuck up the shields so hard

#

Make 2 lrpc, snipe 1 base, they make bubbles, emp missile the bubbles

#

that emp missile shit is so op when theres a stalemate

dark compass
#

you could make Behemoths amphibious : it could hover on water

#

imagine that D gun firing at ships, crossing the Straight sea to destroy your backline