winged grotto
Towers seem really weak especially in 1v1. Maybe they should be stronger (eg against tanks).
Also, why not make tall towers (like the standard guard tower) taller so that they can shoot over buildings. That way they can at least defend against small threats like tics better.
void lagoon
Metal for metal towers are already stronger than units. If you get overwhelmed it’s because your opponent scouts and achieves local superiority. It is good that the game rewards microing scouts so you have to be active
winged grotto
Maybe depends on whether the goal is to make it an APM fest like SC2 vs an actual RTS. Trade-off between designing for actions per minute competition (first to get carpel tunnel wins) vs an actual real time strategy game focused more on things like building, macro strategy, and counters.
cunning sequoia
Both are "actual" rts game types
dire night
youre gonna need to be fast even with stronger turrets, thats totally unrelated
winged grotto
I was replying to "It is good that the game rewards microing scouts so you have to be active"...
Subatai's comment implied that stronger towers would require less "microing scouts".
winged grotto
Both are "actual" rts game types
Definitely I was using biased language labeling SC2 as "APM genre" (rather than RTS genre)...
winged grotto
youre gonna need to be fast even with stronger turrets, thats totally unrelated
That's true. Atlhough there's a spectrum of how much an RTS is about APM vs non-APM things. APM things like hyper APM micro'ing multiple key sets of units with activated abilities on a refresh timer 24x7 non-stop keyboard mouse-click 800 APM (1000 APM). Non-APM things like macro, strategy, tactics, counters, expansion, changing builds, etc based on situation. Game design can affect the extent to which APM vs non-APM things gain more benefit.
For example, an RTS could be designed such that a 30-60 APM player who is consistently 10% better in every non-APM respect can win games against an 800-1000+ APM player... Simply by making the game design more about non-APM things (and less about APM things).
plush sonnet
well if someone can tell me then
whats the counter to tanks?
tower wise per faction
heavy laser?
winged grotto
Tanks counter towers. Long-range artillery, rockets, snipers counter towers. Towers sort of only work against weakling harass like grunts (pawns).
crisp rapids
walls, lightning/flame turrets?
plush sonnet
walls, lightning/flame turrets?
more for bots, not for tanks
t2 pop ups are good for tanks
but nothing t1 really
winged grotto
Even just making the towers taller would be nice
It kind of makes them almost useless that buildings block them; I see high ranked players not even use towers
void lagoon
I wrote that scouting you will find your weak spot and therefore a flexible army will always beat you
Not building towers saves metal, they rely on radar and scouts to screen and react in time
And to say they don’t even use towers is not true. Sometimes they skip them but rely heavily on them in other situations
dark sail
in the end, a unit is just a mobile turret.
I do get the "APM" rts sentiment tho, ideally you strike a good balance between both Macro rts, and apm rts:
Having opprotunity for micro to improve your units value, but not making unmicroed units be completely helpless
Having opportunity for buildorder optimisation, but not having optimised builds be mandatory
BAR kinda has both issues, but in different positions from what ive seen
in team backline eco, buildorder seems to be king, into more stuff beats less stuff, a very "macro" focused role
on frontlines / 1v1 micro is king (tho builds seems required too), if you dont control your units you cant trust them to not suicide
back to turrets tho, turrets are point defence, something to bolster your mobile defence. relying on turrets as your main defence will end them getting outranged. Turrets are there, so that your units dont have to be. turrets firing over building seems like a qol thing, so no issue tbh
wispy charm
Maybe depends on whether the goal is to make it an APM fest like SC2 vs an actua...
Reading "a real RTS" makes me wonder if you know the difference between a REAL TIME game and a TURN BASED game, because the way you explain it you seem to be to slow for a RTS.
Starcraft 1 was ok
Starcraft 2 is WAY TO FAST of you ask me
BAR isnt that fast and since you can zoom out you still get a very good overview of what is going on.
Maybe you just need a bigger screen to play more zoomed out, so the game seems slower?
Over all... if the enemy was able to build those tanks and run them into the defenders advantage then you must made some mistakes before. To understand this is one of the things that makes you grow over time and become a better player
hazy matrix
llts are an ok counter to tanks, but you need "fodder".
Med tanks are high hp low dps, sort of poor targeting. Actually work great against llt compared to essentially all other T1 options, however, in the same light, if the llt is hitting the tank and the tank is firing at other units or buildings, that's best dps for your metal.
Also don't neglect dragons teeth against tanks. Can really slow their progress with low investment.
llts, dllts, beamers, popups all are great/fine. HLT/t1 arty are not really viable options.
weary wyvern
this post conveys a very fundamental strategic error that is very common among new players- there is an intrinsic asymmetry between attack and defense in that the attacker gets to pick where they want to fight, which means you are simply never going to be able to protect everywhere with so many towers you can stop a full attack there. If you evenly divide your defenses the attacker will send all their forces at one place, and you're screwed
towers are very strong in BAR but they cannot move which means the attacker does not have to fight them, ever, if they don't choose to
and they won't choose to unless they're going to win
winged grotto
Reading "a real RTS" makes me wonder if you know the difference between a REAL T...
Relative to SC1, I think SC2 requires less APM for tedious actions that the AI should do, but they added arbitrary things to inflate APM focus like activated abilities, can't zoom out, each race has an econ ability you have to micro. For zerg it's the most ridiculous having to manually expand creeps this is such an obvous thing to automate if they wanted to make it less about APM and more about RTS. Inflating APM like this makes the game more about APM (hyper fast keyboard mouse clicking to do tedious actions where no real choice is involved - it's just about how fast you click accurately) (including things that could even be automated by a dumb AI or simple scripts and keyboard macros) and less about doing real-time strategic and tactical stuff (making strategic and tactical decisions in real-time based on the current situation or idea you want to try).
winged grotto
Over all... if the enemy was able to build those tanks and run them into the def...
yea I have seen answers like this on SC2 stackoverflow in response to "how to counter X" like "how to counter mass BC or protoss air" = don't let them build that
winged grotto
this post conveys a very fundamental strategic error that is very common among n...
Fair enough, but I think making towers taller so they suck slightly less (are not defeated by a lone grunt who hides behind a building) does not break any "intrinsic asymmetry". Maybe I should've put that more specific idea in the title instead (make towers taller so they can shoot over buildings). I'm especially thinking about the cheapest towers vs tics, grunts, etc
I think the short towers is sort of another thing that inflates tedious APM. It's not really a decision to hide behind a building with lone grunt when you see it. There's no decision involved. The only trade-off involved is attention span related to APM. It's different than deciding whether to do bots vs vehicles, when to transition from bots to vehicles (or air or t2), where to expand, when/where to attack and retreat, what mix of tanks vs artilary to do, when/where to get some anti nuke or anti air. I suppose it's similar to deciding where to attack from though if they made towers taller it would reduce the emphasis on tedious APM (thus increasing the emphasis on real-time strategic and tactical decisions).
Imho stuff like that should be done by a keyboard macro, simple AI, or game design tweak (taller towers). Personal preference obviously...
I do think probably some of the more tedious high APM actions end up being done more by subconscious parts of brain than the aspects that are more real-time strategic and tactical decision making (which I was somewhat biasedly labeling as "real RTS"). So they could be automated by an AI or a script bc there's no choice involved.
Other than the choice of where to direct your limited APM attention resource (which makes the game more APM focused)
wispy charm
Bro, is that is your problem... then you might should look into playing Chess online, because if you are to slow then people will always outmacro you
Play civilisation or other 4x games
maybe play total war....
winged grotto
Do you understand it's a spectrum? Any existing RTS game can be artifically made to be more or less focused on APM and still be an RTS.
Making small tweaks to reduce the focus on APM (and increase the focus on real-time strategy and tactics) does not inherently make the game turn-based.
Although I suppose all games are turn-based. But some games have turns that are multiple actions per second...
If the ideal is maximize the emphasis on APM, then so much can be done to increase APM focus...
For example, why not add creep tumors (SC2). And not just one variety of creep tumors, but 10 varties, or 100, or 1,000, 10,000, a million even (beyond all reason). Then the player has to manually expand the creep as fast as possible to give them more tedious brainless APM things to do. In that case, the main "strategic" choices are which creeps do you want to click on to expand faster. And primary way to get better would be to practice how fast you can click creeps.
https://clickspeedtest.com/ - sort of like this except you get to click on different parts of the screen for different colored creep expanding
crisp rapids
the part that's not clicking for me is the connection between defense towers and apm
currently, different defense structures can see over different buildings
winged grotto
I guess Subatai's comment "It is good that the game rewards microing scouts so you have to be active" sort of triggered my APM tangent
crisp rapids
and planning out your base and where (and in what number) to place both buildings and defense structures is an important aspect of the game
winged grotto
If the t1 towers (including guard, sentry) were taller then they would defend better (especially early game) against (grunt, pawn, tic, etc) micro
Or another example is air transport com rush
This is a bad example because I'm in a corner
crisp rapids
the t1 sentries are blocked by wind, but they can see over mexes and powerplant. they can't shoot through factories, but this seems like a design choice
I.e. wind is technically more efficient in terms of metal, but it is harder to defend
in one of my mentor replay reviews indeed one of my feedbacks was to consider this in base design and start because it's a deliberate trade-off
now it's possible to defend a grid of say 16 windmills, by placing an llt at the corner of both
then there's no need to worry about micro from any scout, but you pay for it in time and metal
winged grotto
oh and maybe I missed something... but I thought towers can't shoot over bot lab but looks like it should be able to from this angle 🤔
bot lab must have an invisible wall blocking the laser 🐸
crisp rapids
I admit I just assume they can't for most purposes
but the botlabs health and proximity to newly produced units can act as a pseudo front defense
winged grotto
This is interesting. You can shoot over mex but there might be a tiny space a grunt could hide
crisp rapids
without focusing on base design just yet, the issue with the tall tower that sees over everything is that you need to cost it in a way that it can't just be replaced by multiple lower towers (both in terms of metal and build time), and that it potentially then negates the multiple types of defenses available and their current tradeoffs
crisp rapids
This is interesting. You can shoot over mex but there might be a tiny space a g...
yes, if you have enough ticks say, you can run a group in and hide one in the mex blind spot
winged grotto
crisp rapids
or you can approach the tower from several angles and exploit the fact that it can't fire everywhere at once and needs time to pivot
winged grotto
apparently you can shoot over bot lab (armada anyway) but there is some sort of invisible wall partly blocking it
crisp rapids
but, I will also say that when the tick kills the mex at such a range, the mex death explosion will damage the unit hiding in its shadow and you still have the llt to worry about, so it ends up generally being a sacrifice (and this is if you don't count the lost metal needed to get the unit in there)
for the big square buildings you need at most one defense at opposite corners, this provides total coverage
but in practice I'd say even that is excessive
because in the real world you've got the commander who is often there in the crucial early seconds and the factory itself outputs units with a given exit path
winged grotto
Here's a weird example. When the solar panel finishes building, it blocks the laser even though it looks like it shoots just barely above it
crisp rapids
and a single grunt or tick isn't going to be a timely threat to the big buildings like a factory
yes, so this comes back to base design theory: how to structure an early base to balance coverage and risk
crisp rapids
a common structure in start plays is a kind of mex/power plant/llt nest
winged grotto
oh wait that line is wrong
crisp rapids
with all nestled in relatively close to provide maximum coverage
winged grotto
it's not drawn from the gun
I think the line of sight might be coming from the base of the tower instead of the gun
crisp rapids
remembering that in early game, the commander is a second llt equivalent
winged grotto
I didn't realize this before. I thought something seemed weird about the tower line of sight (sentry, guard).... but i didn't realize the line of fire comes from the base (not the gun)
crisp rapids
and our other theory that two llts at opposing corners provide total coverage of a rectangular area
winged grotto
crisp rapids
so a commander + single llt provides a theoretical early rectangular area of perfect coverage: whether you build windmills or power plants
winged grotto
That's why it struggles to see over the bot lab. It's not because it's too short - it's because the line of sight comes from the base of the gun rather than the actual gun barrel
and even then there's an invisible wall
crisp rapids
generally the hit boxes in this game are either spheres or cylinders
winged grotto
oh
crisp rapids
I think it's cylinders anyway
winged grotto
so two things that make range weird:
I wonder if they have debug commands to see hit boxes
crisp rapids
they do
now I just need to remember it...
(or hope someone else can first more likely)
winged grotto
I found it....
alt+v
this is kind of obscene lol - i mean big sphere over empty space
It also makes the tower aiming weird because it's like you can't go through the center of the bot lab as easily as if you're on the edge
although not by a huge difference i guess
probably the use spheres for some math reason
like a sphere is defined by a point and a radious, and there is some equation for sphere ray intersection
it seems to be inside the bigger sphere but outside the smaller sphere
wish they had an options for alt+v with opaque instead of wireframe
From a player (not design or balance) perspective, I guess it's good to know towers can actually shoot over a bit more than I thought
hey the appear to have (axis aligned bounding boxes) AABB's too
void lagoon
I guess Subatai's comment "It is good that the game rewards microing scouts so y...
You misunderstood me. I said scouting let’s you attack where your defences are weakest and gain local superiority
lean delta
this is kind of obscene lol - i mean big sphere over empty space
If you mean the cyan sphere of the botlab that's something else not really related to collisions. It's the "bugger off zone" or something like that that tells fresh units to vacate the pad.
rocky berry
i don't really see whats the point of that, llts are already good enough
if you don't like them being too short then make extra at different locations, or defend with units
weary wyvern
it's also worth noting that being able to fire over things or not is a two-way street- like you can build a mex behind a dragons teeth and most units cannot shoot over it (arcing weapons can, e.g. plasma)
you can literally build a solar panel in front of an LLT as sort of a ghetto wall
rocky berry
it's one of the game's design points that you can't just cover everything in defence because there are counter to it, you are not supposed to just sit there and do nothing, you should play the game with units
cursive trellis
My boy, walls exist
