#Sprinters Are Awful - Need a buff to have any role

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grizzled acorn
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it's the same problem

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just you have stronger raiders and stronger defenses

hollow elbow
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its not

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cuz you are later in the game

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so the dmg is much larger

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if a tick kills your mex at the start at the game buhu

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you bad but its not horrible

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if you base gets wiped at 10 min mark

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you are dont with the game

grizzled acorn
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a couple ticks or pawns in your completely defenseless factory at the start of the game you're dead too

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thats why its not defenseless

hollow elbow
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pawns wont make it through

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and i have lab in base still

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ticks will do shit to it

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i newer saw tick kill lab in early game

grizzled acorn
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the units coming out of the factory

hollow elbow
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we are talking about few mins later in the game

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my lab is already gone

grizzled acorn
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ticks wont kill a lab because your units will stop it

hollow elbow
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in the back base

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its on front

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my back is econ

grizzled acorn
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if indeed you losing a factory at the front is death then you should defend that area against raiders, heavily enough that raiders will not be able to destroy it

hollow elbow
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wdym

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what im saying is: its 10 min mark - i dont have lab in the original base, its reclaimed, i have lab at the front producing units

grizzled acorn
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let's forget what these objects are for a second and consider the map as if it were a heatmap of how vulnerable you are there

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I think you are saying you have multiple things you need to defend which is pretty normal

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losing a mex at the 10 minute mark? eh you could survive that pretty easily

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losing some wind farms? worse, but okay, could recover

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losing your T2 lab is BAD, losing a fusion BAD, identifying the areas or items on the map that would be catastrophic if they were raided

hollow elbow
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ok so u think losing all power in the back in not game ending for you?

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at 10 min mark

grizzled acorn
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whether using towers or units you need to defend the things that will kill you if they are killed

hollow elbow
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too bad that cortex doesnt have units that actually can do anything about it at 10 min mark

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what are u saying is that you are trying to make supercharged ticks

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while giving nothing to counter from the other faction

grizzled acorn
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no I am saying that raiders and raid defense are a game dynamic that matters

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and the same rules apply regardless of the unit

hollow elbow
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so far you didnt have me any reasonable way to defend against such raid

grizzled acorn
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you COULD have defenses on your T2 lab if you really wanted, even just parking two Sumos there if you had to in order to stop a fairly sizable sprinter raid

hollow elbow
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you want me to invest

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1k metal

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at the start of the game

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into defence of lab?

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are u insane?

grizzled acorn
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defending 2k metal from ending you?

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you can still use the sumos later for other things

hollow elbow
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ok, now tell me what armada player will do

grizzled acorn
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they wont die

hollow elbow
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in the same situation?

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someone is coming for his t2 lab

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with sprinters

grizzled acorn
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lets say grunts are attacking?

hollow elbow
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what he will do

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he will do sprinters too to match the oponent

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you want me to build sumos

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that move

grizzled acorn
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it's not different? whether with towers or units you cover the thing the sprinters want to kill to win the game?

hollow elbow
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like fucking turtles

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you can run circles around them

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and lol in chat

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how im supposed to defend anything

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with a barely moving turret

grizzled acorn
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fiends would work too

hollow elbow
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dude, i told you - cortex struggle with speed

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fiends are slower already

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and you want to make sprinters FASTER

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dude i cant

grizzled acorn
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you do not have to run after the sprinter in a race and catch them in order to be in their path when they come after the things that will kill you if they are destroyed

hollow elbow
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but he can just avoid you

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if he have hands

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if he is an idiot running straight into my units

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it doesnt count

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thats the entire point im making

grizzled acorn
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he will see your units defending your (item) and turn around because if he engages he dies

hollow elbow
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until i have fus running and second lab im dead

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he will go for something else

grizzled acorn
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most likely yes

hollow elbow
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base is not a single point of defence

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he will go kill the wind farms

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cut my power by 60%

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and im fucked regardless

grizzled acorn
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assuming you are defending the sensitive targets and he is raiding wind farms... how many wind farms would he have to actually kill just to break even?

hollow elbow
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i will ask you this: how would you feel if fiends gets buffed today to 110 speed?

grizzled acorn
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I don't think 110 speed is a ridiculous speed but considering they have 50% more health and double the DPS plus AOE... I think they would need to cost at least 230 or 250 metal

hollow elbow
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u think it wouldnt be bad?

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lmao

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dude, if my fiends were 110 speed

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i would be chillin

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with any scenario that you throw at me

grizzled acorn
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the fiend is a very effective assault unit

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the Pyro was actually the Zeus counterpart as the assault bot with the whole fire/lightning contrast

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they made it way faster in BAR

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its a good unit

hollow elbow
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i think you disregard how strong speed is in this game

grizzled acorn
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not at all

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just that 110 isnt actually that fast

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many units are 90 or 100

hollow elbow
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yes, but not in cortex roster lol

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fiend is 83

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i think the only viable solution would be to not play cortex lol

grizzled acorn
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I think you are overlooking the cortex strengths in countering light units though

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for example the Pounder riot tank

hollow elbow
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dude

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how im supposed to catch them

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with pounders

grizzled acorn
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you don't catch them you defend the things you do not want them to destroy

hollow elbow
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im pretty sure then can just zip between the pounder bullets like neo in matrix

grizzled acorn
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um I dont think so but if so that would be not ideal

hollow elbow
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im talking if u make them faster, dunno if they can do it now

grizzled acorn
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I doubt it projectile speeds are massively higher than any unit speed

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and if the pounder is ineffective at hitting sprinters you can just make its projectile faster or improve its aim factor

hollow elbow
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still, my point stands - you want cortex players to do either unit (that dont move from the base) or static defences for the bases while armada can use the same unit for defence and attack

grizzled acorn
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assault units and riot units are very effective on the attack even if slower moving

hollow elbow
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and if you dont see that as a problem, heh ok

grizzled acorn
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starting vehicles you can make a missile truck to intercept ticks instead of an LLT and then use that unit to fight on the front later

hollow elbow
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anyway, gtg. in my honest opinion sprinters should not get buffed, unless cortex gets reasonable counterplay to them.
cheers

real siren
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<@&549291872192036874>

#1106486374795849749 message

Can someone deal with this ridiculous thread this dude just posting incorrect information at this point.

rustic mountain
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TLDR, threads dont have to have a winner of an argument

keen anvil
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Those look like opinions to me, not facts

halcyon marsh
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I'd say morli has a point, talking in terms of game wide faction balance, rather than direct unit balance.
It seems fair and logical enough to me that making Sprinters more viable for mid game, probably could skew 1v1s and lower player matches.

Right now in the current balance, if someone rushes Sprinters in a 1v1, the correct defence as a Cortex player is probably to laugh at them, build half the number of fiends and send them to demolish their base (utterly immune to interception by Sprinters) and just defend your base with Grunts, LLTs, whatever. The small number of Sprinters will kill a mexe or two, but won't be able to touch you. (Due to Sprinters costing 50% more energy than Fiends, you may well even beat them to any attempt to rush you. 10 fiends costing 100 more metal than 10 Sprinters, isn't going to change things.)
But in a game with buffed Sprinters at lower cost, the more basic defence might not be enough, and it could make a relevant difference in the timing of the attack.

real siren
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That isn't the point I am trying to make, I don't want to win or lose - but saying the sprinter can't dodge pounder projectile is so outlandishly incorrect information I just don't see how this can go on.

halcyon marsh
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It's a bit of a weird argument in a way, since it's basically saying to keep one of the least used units in the game a dud, but it does have some basis to it.
Even though the real problem would then be lack of raid defence for Cortex, rather than the Sprinter suddenly actually being too good or anything.

real siren
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Eh, w/e. Balance aside and not to derail for much longer, saying the sprinter cannot dodge pounder projectile, or if it can that's somehow a problem, when you can easily dodge hound gauss already is just manipulative. edit (I am reasonably certain I've dodged pounder projectile with sprinters. I've done it w pretty much every other unit that has a plasma round and isn't rapid fire.)

I would rather start an entirely new thread and make a reasonable appeal backed up by information we've tested instead of sitting here arguing with this dude all day because they won't budge on any point and have drawn the ire of the devs.

I don't want anyone to win or lose, I just want to see the shitty debate stop and open up a thread that is not 2k messages long where we can just post the information available and move on.

grizzled acorn
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a riot unit is intended to counter a large group of light units, while a skirmisher/artillery unit like the hound is supposed to be swarmed and defeated by units pretty much exactly like the sprinter

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although the hound a little less so than a more dedicated artillery unit like the mauser/quaker

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ergo it is fine to have gauss not be that good vs fast units but antiswarm units should be

real siren
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You aren't intended to get large groups of sprinters, man. Antiswarm =/= antifast.

grizzled acorn
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apparently we are not even intended to build them

real siren
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More very constructive comments, dodging points, general dickery.

I am asking you to close out this thread because it's become impossible to have a reasonable discussion about it. If you care about the community and want to get anything done about this unit, leave it be for awhile and come back with a new thread later so everyone involved that also wants something changed can have a chance to have this fade from memory a bit.

I would not be opposed to some changes - I have always said that, I myself would like a chance to talk about this reasonably at some point in the future.

halcyon marsh
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You two probably should try to avoid engaging each other. It's just not gone well so far.
And Ledarsi hasn't been the only one unwilling to budge. It's been a mutual thing going on here.

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You also can't ask someone to close out of their own thread and refuse to do so yourself.

grizzled acorn
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I do not think I have been unwilling to entertain others' ideas

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just statements like it has been used in the tournament which turned out to be either untrue or substantially untrue

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or that AOE causes quadruple damage vs pawns which is apparently untrue

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or that sprinters are somehow impervious to a large amount of damage by virtue of 111 movespeed which is also substantially untrue

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or that a 10% faster movespeed somehow enables a categorical and massive increase in raiding potential vs eco

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when a 3 second time delay in crossing the map is hardly worth 190 metal vs 48

deft stream
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Firm communist lives up to his name. Just ignore him.

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He is little special

junior token
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I agree with the thread, even if there are no buff to stats, atleast reduce the cost so its 2/3rd

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Sprinters are near useless in 8v8 but in 1v1 they might run havoc due to the insane speed

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I mean it really is a worse pawn with dps that is actually laughable

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It barely survives running through gaps as is

halcyon marsh
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BTW. If anyone wants to give a short vote of interest/agreement/disagreement in the topic, rather than delving into the dark jungles of this thread, feel free to vote with the reaction emotes up above.
( I'm not a dev and this isn't a democracy or anything, but it'll at least give a fair indication of basic community sentiment, that won't just get buried by long winded arguments.)

junior token
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yeah i see some real strong stuff has gone down in the thread

grizzled acorn
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I did not vote yes because I made the thread

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I think I should though if people are not going to read

junior token
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But the title is correct, sprinters dont really serve a particular role that other units are not better at

grizzled acorn
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I think a lot of other people seem to agree a cost reduction rather than a performance increase is a smarter strategy

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I think that is the simplest path, but Legios' concept about an energy consuming boost toggle is actually quite elegant

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more ambitious

fluid seal
eternal condor
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In 1v1?

cunning crescent
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You actually have a good point. I have swapped opinions.

eternal condor
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No one ever said Sprinter is the only useless unit...

daring fern
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omg such TLDR 😄 its a pitty no action will be made to change it

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"Giving more strong raiding options to armada, while cortex already struggle with them is a mistake of high magnitude."

at t2 isnt core pyro/fiend the strongest raiding option and arm has no real counter? and t2 is main unit level in many game types and map sizes, more important than t3

eternal condor
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Honestly, Sheldon is pretty 💩, too.

grizzled acorn
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could definitely see the sheldon having a similar thread

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mainly the issue I think is some players think in order to do raid defense they must have a unit that is FASTER than the raider rather than anticipating where they will attack and being in their path or covering the objective

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riot units are very effective vs pawns and other light units as are porc

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there are some units, even core units, that are faster than sprinters such as planes that could do the job as well if you insist on a speedy reaction force

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intel is the main thing, especially radar, as well as deploying resources not just a giant forward blob that the enemy might run past

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while this does weaken your front army, sending the raiders does too

hollow elbow
deft stream
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Panthers ^^)?

grizzled acorn
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that is what they were called in TA but they were a bit different- mostly they could use missiles vs ground too

hollow elbow
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panthers = jaguars

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i just knew them as panthers*

grizzled acorn
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ya i feel that

daring fern
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and much more dps

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so pyro much better to "Send and forget" spammable raider, panther only good when u utilize its 600 range i guess

hollow elbow
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u mean u have to micro them? sounds like skill issue

daring fern
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in other words cost of using panther is much bigger (cause its cost of focus time, the ultimate resource)

hollow elbow
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wat

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its a direct counter, you can wipe entire blobs of fiends with few jaguars witth minimal loses

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and if you argument is duh they require micro, its counterproductive to discuss this further

torn ravine
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they are crap. need to be faster.

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Cant believe people are fighting this while literally almost any team game you get flea or pawn (or their equivalnets) spam.
what exactly is the sprinters role then?
they have none which is why they are almost never used and when used usually do not really do much.

fast arch
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From the tests I did I also think that changing the stats is not the way. I'd only change the LoS to be higher and do a cost reduction and let it sit. Eventually we are going to see if sprinters do become "op" or if they become a balanced unit that people actually want to use

torn ravine
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i disagree.
they should be made faster so they are more unique.
Better to carve a more distinct role for them than to balance them by marginalizing them

daring fern
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i want them fastest land unit by huge margin

fluid seal
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making unit with actual health very fast can be volatile

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150 speed unit with 700 health are sure unique

daring fern
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maybe then ppl will start using more t1 gunships as this would be the best counter to sprinters

torn ravine
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point is, unit sux atm, it can be made useful by reducing costs or improving stats.
i think the later is better.

daring fern
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rest of the stat is negotiable, i dont care

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just what should be unique is highest speed of all land units

fluid seal
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gunships can't hit even current sprinters so idk about that

fast arch
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Should make a thread about t1 gunships but it will get shut down pretty fast because of 1v1s

eternal condor
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Jaguar requires energy to fire the lightning cannon, though.

eternal condor
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Probably.

daring fern
torn ravine
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@eternal condorthats not possible.
if you increase it enough it will become useful.
gotta increase it enough so its useful but not too much so its op.
In short, balance the unit.

deft stream
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Jaguar has less DPS, costs much more, has same HP, is fractionally faster (7 speed) and is a vehicle, so functionally much slower and less maneuverable

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Its only advantage for the 50% metal and 100% energy extra price is slight range and aa.

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Jaguars get ran over and die in every fight I saw them in when facing Fiends

hallow tundra
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Jaguar aa isn’t weak
It’s rather good for dealing with t1 air

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Jags are really good vs stun drones

daring fern
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panther is cool with 600 range and good speed and aa, but its not pure raider like fiend that is great spammable unit, and in typical use case (send and forget, dont have time to micro much) fiend win easily

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in other words if you were to use it like fiend then u pay extra for aa and range that u dont need: instead fiend offer better value for money for critical features 😄

eternal condor
eternal condor
deft stream
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Jaguar fiend matchup is really poor for the jag

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I know it can kite on paper, but its vehicle.

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In reality it cant

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And if fiends start to shoot back, Jags get destroyed in seconds

eternal condor
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Though sure, "teleporting" Sprinters would be good, I guess.

fluid seal
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nothing personnel kid teleports to your eco

eternal condor
real siren
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Actual footage of me microing my sprinters without stopping to eco for several minutes.

fast arch
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Well, you guys know that you can just tweak the units and test it out right?

Unit tweak making the Sprinter cost 140m and making the LoS be 525
ICB7DQogICAgYXJtZmFzdCA9IHsgYnVpbGRDb3N0TWV0YWwgPSAxNDAsIHNpZ2h0ZGlzdGFuY2UgPSA1MjUgfQ0KICB9

Unit tweak making the Sprinter have 150 speed
ICB7DQogICAgYXJtZmFzdCA9IHsgbWF4dmVsb2NpdHkgPSA1IH0NCiAgfQ

Btw, even at this absurd speed the Sprinter still gets absolutely rekt by the Pounder

real siren
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Tbf I do still b like "awh fuck, I can't believe you've done this" when I am raiding and see pounders but I could swear I've been able to dodge pounder projectiles.

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Maybe I am insane, I've conceded as being wrong or misremembering things before.

fast arch
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About this Pounder thing you might be insane lel. The Sprinters maybe would win if you doubled their health, and even then it will probably not be enough for a fair match

real siren
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You can just run in a circle around any swivel mounted weapon btw. So like, head on it would be awful but if they get in range and you can micro you'll probably kill some of them.

fast arch
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Ah yes, the perfectly microd unit 1v1 scenario lel

real siren
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Can we stop with the sarcastic comments

fast arch
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The only thing you could realistically do is bait the pounders to hit each other, which would decrease their effectiveness, you still would lose investment x investment though

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Bringing up unit 1v1 scenarios like that is sarcastic in itself, the game isn't an unit 1v1 arena

real siren
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It's not like I haven't had my share of shitty things said in the thread but I am actually for either getting this back on track or closing it down and trying again later. Animosity and sarcasm isn't going to get us anywhere.

I've done it with a group of units running around and in between tanks, not just pounders but any swivel mounted weapon like hounds.

This is also an applicable strategy to naval combat.

fast arch
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Pounder's turret turns fast, the projectile is fast, the AOE is pretty big, you will only circle the pounder in an unit 1v1, if you bring in just 2 pounders the sprinters start to get btfo

real siren
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I just tried it.

The pounders projectile and swivel rate is fast. However it's possible to dodge and take no damage at max range, and to dodge a direct hit as you close if you time it well, you still take some impulse and aoe though.

Once in range the sprinter is faster than the swivel speed, and you can take advantage of that and their inability to fire over each other for small skirms. It's impractical on a larger scale to try and fight and tbh I am just gonna try to get passed in most cases to hit eco anyway.

Pounder probably isn't what you want guarding your fragile and volatile eco though.

real siren
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@grizzled acorn @deft stream @fluid seal @eternal condor

@fringe yacht @hollow elbow @cunning crescent @heady river

The unit to some people feels unusable. The people who use it agree on a mild to moderate buff. The devs do not seem keen on changing the unit at all.

Our best bet is to offer a reasonable buff to a less direct stat. Cost reduction, LoS increase, range increase, reduce in bp cost, making it more responsive/snappy, etc. Anything outlandish like adding a toggleable ability or increasing speed or damage is likely to get laughed off.

halcyon marsh
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  • Ability toggle sounds unnecessarily complex to me, both in terms of play and in terms of dev time to implement. It's just not really needed, and against the general design ethos of the game.
  • Extra speed feels dangerous to add, and kinda unnecessary again. Add too much and it would risk making the unit something that can outright bypass defences/defenders even by running through them. Would make the unit too hard to deal with.

I've been proposing cost as a good option because it works as an effective buff to DPS, Health, reduced loss of effectiveness to one-shots and unit losses, improved flanking potential, better ability to scout and split, and greater flexibility on when and how many to deploy.
Which are all things that the Pawn beats the Sprinter on, and probably why you see backline pawn raids virtually every game (even late game) and almost never sprinter raids.

LoS is the other one. I didn't even realise til recently just how bad the Sprinters LoS is. It really should at least be on par with Grunts and Pawns.
At only 351 It has less LoS that a LLTs range of 430. Which is probably why half my memories of seeing them used involves them running blindly around the backlines and embarrassingly blundering into fresh turrets that got spammed up in reaction to their approach.
Grunts have a LoS of 500, for reference, kinda highlighting how painfully near sighted Sprinters are.

Even if nothing else was done, that in particular really deserves an improvement.

real siren
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Gonna give it a bit and see if anyone else throws their two cents into this.

plain kernel
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Sprinters liteally have won games

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They can kite flashes and pawns

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If u guys are purely looking to use them as a frontline unit

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U dont know how to use it

real siren
# plain kernel U dont know how to use it

I totally agree that the expectations for the sprinter is kind of insane -

They aren't looking for them to be a frontline unit but they want them to severely out perform all other raiders, or units that they could use as raiders.

This isn't a good road to go down because we're just going to go in circles again.

Most everyone agrees that the unit could be a tad less expensive, or have better LoS since they are basically blind and can't see where they are going with all that speed.

Sprinter is not a scout but that doesn't mean it has to be blind.

cunning crescent
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My mind has been changed

real siren
# cunning crescent I disagree, I believe it's fine where it is

Okay, that is totally valid. However I don't want this thread do go on for days with both parties just citing the same things over and over again, or new parties coming in and also debating to no avail.

I think the sprinter is fine myself, but a small buff would make it more accessible, not outright better. It's a highskill unit and I like that, but the skill floor to use it could be lower.

Even though you think the unit is fine where it is (as do likely the devs)

Would you please be apart of the discussion further, so that we may find a reasonable suggestion to make? Pretend it isn't should or should not, it would be happening and you get a chance to recommend whatever you think would be least offensive to balance in order to improve the unit.

cunning crescent
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I don't want every unit to be accessible, that would make a lot more room for generic play, like how people spam sheldons out

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I know it's arguable it would make the gameplay more diverse, but it would throw the balance off more if the unit was made more viable for lower skilled players, making counters harder for playstyles because the low skilled players themselves aren't very capable of it

real siren
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I understand that - however this thread if it ever gets back on track, is likely going to try and make a appeal to the devs, whether either of us like that or not. Please, least offensive buff?

In good faith to at least address your point - more accessible doesn't mean generic, or lowering the skill ceiling of the unit.

SC II's ghost is a good example of this. You can just cloak and go fire a nuke, to then moving up to using them for their decent burst damage as a counter - especially against Zerg as all their units are considered biological, to microing them for their EMP to remove energy and protoss shields.

From the get go, anyone can just grab a ghost and do okay. I don't want the unit to be nearly that accessible, but players that are not in teen TS anymore should at least look at it and be more willing to experiment with it.

fluid seal
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the least offensive buff are like -20% to m and e cost

real siren
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It turned into just fiends or just sprinters at certain points.

This is, not at all how I intended things to go lmfao. I think having the sprinters out en masse became kind of a necessity to counter each other since they will just shred ticks and pawns can't keep up

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There were plenty of times where they just outright got demolished, too.

real siren
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https://bar-rts.com/replays/6cd76964ef6d6d65bb8dd4edad5d5192

Besides my embarrassing misplay at the beginning, this is a much better replay.

My goal here was to just have small to medium groups of sprinters and just to be constantly looking for a way in. It wasn't easy on such a confined map like ATG but I think I did pretty well for my OS and the map being so confined.

I do feel like the speed and durability made a difference here, I end up trying to run by an absolute ton of shit all the time due to map density, but getting a few through to actually hit shit kept forcing them to rebuild, spend more on defense, spend more on counters, etc.

I think their canyon went on the offensive like, once? they were under pressure almost constantly by us and raids.

I accidentally pissed off light green, I was kind of tunnel visioning and he was getting annoyed, I didn't even noticed his messages until later.

BAR Live Services
BAR Live Services

Live, dynamic data such as replays, leaderboards and live battles for the RTS game Beyond All Reason

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Of course loads of'em just die. But, I don't think the cost really mattered since economy scales exponentially. You can just, always have more units if you keep building eco.

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The big thing I am noticing is that sprinters would be fucking amazing as an early t2 rush imo - because there are little defenses and no other appropriate land units can catch them. I think the cost they are at now prohibits that from being a huge issue, but reducing the cost a bit or improving the line of sight still sounds reasonable to me.

real siren
eternal condor
eternal condor
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Currently, using Blitzes or Pawns are more cost effective -> It is unwise to ever build Sprinters.

eternal condor
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Unlike in team games, in 1v1, even small mistakes, such as building some wrong units may be severely punished by the opponent.

cunning crescent
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I'm smoothbrained

eternal condor
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...\Beyond-All-Reason\data\demos
I believe.

eternal condor
cunning crescent
fluid seal
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okay those replays are joke only times sprinters did anything when enemy was afk for 30 seconds

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ATG literally the worst choice of map if you want to show sprinters in favourable position

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all that talk about skill issue and you just move send your sprinters

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i feel like this whole thread was 3 days of trolling

cunning crescent
#

It wasn't three days

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It was actually closer to a week iirc

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🤓

fluid seal
#

fucking hell

grizzled acorn
#

and that is more than I think anyone is actually thinking would be a good idea

#

at most it would be the same speed and vision radius as a flea despite costing 7-9x more, after factoring in a cost reduction from 190 to I dunno 150 or 140 metal

#

and tick speed is perhaps the highest reasonable speed limit- not that it's impossible to push it further but you clearly couldn't do it all at once and other changes to other units might need to be made such as adjust riot unit range in order for anything faster to be viable (which might be ok to adjust antiswarm anyway vs brain melt but thats a different matter)

#

as for DPS if the Sprinter costs 140 metal I think increasing its DPS from 120 to 140 DPS or perhaps 150 DPS would be a reasonable starting point

#

still not even close to the raw efficiency of the pawn at 90 DPS for 48 metal or nearly 2:1, as well as 335 HP or 7:1 compared to the sprinter at 690 HP / 140 metal (4.9:1, slightly lower than Marauder) but after reducing its cost and making it hit harder it could be used

#

I believe the T2 scout/raider role is very sound for this unit by having it be fast, DPS efficient, and with good vision

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however it would still underperform in assault rather seriously compared to nearly all other units and its HP is still bad

grizzled acorn
hallow tundra
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2300 posts here

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How

fluid seal
#

idk really

#

i kept posting coz its funny

limber blade
# hallow tundra How

because ledarsi can not concede anything and doesn't listen to anyone, even those with more experience and knowledge. he keeps arguing round and round in circles with anyone that comments about exactly the same things even after numerous poeple tell him the same things. its an onging theme in most suggestion threads he's in.

fluid seal
#

maybe other way around?

cunning crescent
#

Hey you know what they say

#

“Misery loves company” troll

grizzled acorn
#

I feel a little unfairly insulted for responding to things that are not true with a polite refutation of why, for example, pawns do not in fact take 3-4x more damage from hounds AOE in real matches, among a dozen other fallacious points

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after being insulted quite repeatedly and not responding in kind

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now apparently I "cannot concede" because the things I was refuting were actually wrong

cunning crescent
#

Look @grizzled acorn we all have different opinions in this debate. Only natural that we’re gonna have complete opposites when the discussion is taken more serious, so it’s more or less a just a issue of the whole thing

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Not a blame game here, but we’re likely all to blame

fast arch
#

Idk I think it makes sense for ledarsi to hold the line, he's the OP

real siren
real siren
real siren
real siren
real siren
# fluid seal maybe other way around?

HOW when I have literally said multiple times I could agree to a mild buff??? And was trying to get people to find a common ground just a few messages ago?

Like, days ago I agreed I would essentially be indifferent to a mild buff, but opposed to a bigger one.

Shit thread.

real siren
eternal condor
real siren
#

Lol, no.

eternal condor
#

Seriously......

real siren
#

sErIoUsLy

eternal condor
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I will but I am not the only person [...]
Alredy realized, but nobody cares.

real siren
#

Cope.

eternal condor
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they work fine.
No one said, they are unable to raid. EVER!

#

So, no 💩 Sherlock.

real siren
#

Seeth, even.

eternal condor
real siren
eternal condor
#

They are unusable, because they cost too much, for example.

#

Not because they don't

work fine
As you said.

#

And don't bring up your own low level team games.

real siren
#

This is an entire strawman, I'm not going to fucking argue with you about what people have been arguing. This is trolling.

eternal condor
real siren
#

I don't have dementia asshole.

eternal condor
real siren
#

Also; I play against 30's all the time in small games and in 1v1's? We fought Teifion in a 4v4 the other night and we nearly won.

Stop with the adhom.

eternal condor
frozen kernel
#

rhade is the community old man yelling at children playing down the street dont listen to anything he says imo

real siren
#

Fair enough

real siren
# eternal condor I doubt you can, though, because Sprinters are 💩.

One last thing tho, you realize I am the only person that has tried to get both parties to agree to a sensible buff to present to the devs so at least something might change, right?

You're attacking the only person in here that is trying to make this work despite not personally liking any of you asking for a huge buff.

#

#1106486374795849749 message

#

I don't care if my footage shows whether they are good or bad, I'm putting down replays, that's for science. I am defending my use of them but the evidence is there for anyone to interpret.

eternal condor
#

I used to like this game, until I have realized its shortcomings.

real siren
eternal condor
#

Would be sad if BAR would end up similarly to SupCom 2, due to some bad gameplay designs.

eternal condor
versed lagoon
eternal condor
real siren
#

You know what, fuck it. We ball.

@olive arch You seem like a balance kind of guy considering the roughneck thread. There is a bit to go over, sorry this is a long message.

Despite the insanity of some people asking for 50% speed buffs, some of us that like the sprinter agree or would be indifferent to a mild buff not associated with directly improving DPS or speed.

We've considered that, while the sprinter is a high-skill and very specialized unit, certain aspects of it may make it seem inaccessible to a lot of players.

From what I have gathered, the units line of site is severely impacted, considerably less than many t1 units, and many feel that reducing the cost mildly would be appropriate.

Somone suggested 20%, I think that is a bit steep and would shoot for 15% which brings it down from 190 to around 160.

Some other ideas I had:
Reduce build cost
Make it more responsive(Turn and pivot faster)
Increase weapon range.
Reduce size
Etc;

Despite the shit that has gone down in here, some people I believe to be sensible have asked for mild buffs in one way or another, and while I personally enjoy the unit, think a LoS increase and a increase in responsiveness would be amazing - It would increase the skill ceiling of the unit and allow even unskilled players to use it with some effect with mild micro because of how quickly it could pivot away from incoming fire.

Thank you for the work you guys do.

versed lagoon
real siren
#

If that doesn't get in then I doubt anything will 🤷

fast arch
#

This aversion to buffing is super weird. It's just buffing the unit, so if you think it was op now it's ultra op!! just go get free os with it if you can use it like a god. Now, if we were talking about nerfing the unit then it would make sense to be so passionate about it, maybe the nerf would break some essential strategy you use

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The reality though is that almost no one uses the thing for that it is supposed to be used for

eternal condor
#

I also provided a pull requrest with the solution, then realized that someone else also did the same 20 days before mine!

#

On GitHub.

real siren
real siren
#

Let me stop you there; I honestly don't care and I put the message in to zecrus.

I have games to play.

Bye.

eternal condor
hallow tundra
#

what is the bug?

real siren
# hallow tundra what is the bug?

No bug, asking for a mild change to balance in some way since more reasonable people have figured the unit could use a mild buff. Nothing crazy.

#

I'm mostly indifferent but want to at least try and advocate for something in a polite manner.

olive arch
#

Sprinter has several different uses, so the main question would be how strong should each use case be. Its high speed and instantaneous damage makes it good for intercepting enemy raids. The high speed can make it good at dodging and swarming overextended skirmishers, but the high cost and low dps makes the unit only ok at this role. The high speed is great for raiding, and the instantaneous damage can let you take out lone llts within seconds, but the low los means you end up having to make a lot of guesses once you get through. You can also build slow units first then fast ones and they will all reach the front ready to attack at the same time, which will give you a temporary advantage over the opponent.
A buff to speed would improve all 4 roles. A cost reduction would mainly improve the swarm and reinforce roles. A los buff would improve the raiding role, without affecting the others. A health buff would improve the raiding and swarming roles. A dps buff would mainly improve the interceptor and swarming roles.

#

I know that a large buff to these types of units would make them very difficult to play against, so if the unit is buffed it should only be by a small amount.

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There's also the question of if T2 arm bots actually need the buff, as they already seem to be in a good state.

real siren
hallow tundra
real siren
eternal condor
#
  1. Pull requests don't get implemented automatically.
#
  1. I am not that selfish to be contetnt with a fix for myself only.
#

And as I have alredy mentioned, I did make a pull request. As did someone else 20 days before me!

#

By the way, that bug messed up hotkeys, so I would consider it to be high-priority. The fix was simple, though.

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And I have never requested any rights to merge to the master branch, either.

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It is a fact though, that without it, I am unable to make the fix applied to everyone.

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Well, everyone, who uses the same layout.

halcyon marsh
fast arch
#

It's mostly all came across as, "It's fine. Skill issue. No."
This. Having to read 20+ lines of convoluted text that just mean "just micro it better bro" is tiring. It would be better to just say "just micro it better bro" instead of reciting the bible, Jesus

real siren
#

Sorry you have problems focusing, this is a complicated topic and discussing details in depth is more helpful than catering to the people that don't want to read.

real siren
real siren
real siren
#

Also, who cares at this point - can we just focus on the unit now and gettin something reasonable through? Please

fast arch
# real siren Sorry you have problems focusing, this is a complicated topic and discussing det...

Sorry you have problems focusing
catering to the people that don't want to read
I'm probably one the few that takes time to read the entire thread lol
discussing details in depth
Saying 1 + 69 + 420 - 1337 + 849 = 2 is not more "in depth" than just saying 1 + 1 = 2

You should've just said "skill issue bro" if that was going to be your reply. Being more direct like that may come across as a troll but it is what it is. I don't think anyone wants to read 2000 characters worth of text just for a "micro issue" reply

I'll have to repost the golden one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8

YouTube
tommya
Terry Davis on Simplicity

TempleOS creator Terry Davis turns a phrase.

▶ Play video
real siren
fast arch
#

Like what, exactly?

real siren
#

We talked at length about cost, dps, line of sight, for like days.

fast arch
#

Yeah just for the arguments to end up being micro

real siren
#

I honestly do not give a fuck if you want to misrepresent me. Cry because you don't want to read.

I have already asked Zecrus what we could to give the unit a mild buff.

No reason to discuss anything else unless you want to derail the thread.

fast arch
#

The derailing was this micro stuff lol. "muh high skill unit", sure, and then you achieve exactly the same what other retard spam units does, like Fiends, Pawns/Grunts, Ticks, etc. Nuke rush and Marauder rush wins WAY more games than Sprinters could ever hope for and noobs can Nuke/Marauder rush. Surely it is paying off to be so high skilled at using Sprinters when a noob 1 clicks your base and achieves more lel

real siren
fast arch
#

The main thing about Sprinters being awful is that it can't even excel at that it is supposed to do, other units that aren't even on the same category can do the job at around the same efficiency. So the main proposed changes are:
-Cost reduction and LoS buff
-Speed buff

That's it, the summary of the entire thread. +2k messages for this

fast arch
deft stream
#

I got a group built against me in 1v2 game where my ally went away.
The best possible scenario for sprinter, whole open map, no front line, double the micro for enemy

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I won.

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Sprinters got dunked on by passing hounds

real siren
#

We are already trying to, diplomatically, recover the thread and get a buff in some way if possible.