#Sprinters Are Awful - Need a buff to have any role

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

grizzled acorn
#

if there is an LLT you don't

#

just an LLT you wont die, but you may encounter something that just kills it

real siren
#

Yes, yes very good very very very good!!!!! In this situation where there is literally nothing else in your way and your target is only one mex and you aren't trying to raid a base that could have other sprinters, gunships, turrets, even slow asa units trickling in to the front - pawn is fucking awful.

Gunships kill pawns in a matter of seconds. A couple fiends kill pawns in seconds. Fatboy kills pawns in one blast. LLT's melt them. There is so much shit that pawns will just immediately die to and are not fast enough to avoid or tanky enough to survive.

Yes, sometimes a pawn raid will be better. Sometimes sprinters will be better. Sometimes gunships will be better. Sometimes ticks, rascals, whatever - will be the better, or the option available to you for raiding.

grizzled acorn
#

if you are sending a large group to assault a defended position....

#

pawns are still better

#

you're literally made only one maaaybe viable use case vs hounds for sprinters and the edge is low

#

very low

real siren
#

It depends on what is there. If it's plasma, sprinters are better because they are easier to dodge stuff with. If it's lasers, pawns are probably better because sprinters cannot negate dps that is 100% accurate in LoS

#

Though lasers do fall off at longer range still, again pawns are probably still better though.

#

If you can dodge gauss with sprinters, you can dodge any other plasma projectile that isn't something like the pawns gatlings.

grizzled acorn
#

raider in among the artillery or skirmishers should be fucking death on stilts almost as bad as killing mexes

#

you pay a high price to get in range and high risk to try

real siren
#

The alternative is trying to outplay their artillery with your own, or trying a different approach like bombers or gunships to get in and deal with artillery - but AA shreds air for super cheap, making gunships mostly viable defensibly or for hitting targets where there is light AA after scouts.

grizzled acorn
#

air is a separate thing entirely

#

entirely different weapons target it

#

and yes making your own artillery is what ppl are doing

real siren
#

Bro they are both in the game, remember, viewing things holistically? How does the sprinter fair against other units designed for a similar role? The roughneck and Hornet are both designed as raiding or intercepting units. Wasp is too slow to make a good raider but if in the right spot is amazing against spam on defenses or in some cases offense.

Idk why you are so opposed to doing that when you constantly compare units to other units but only like one stat at a time or will make somewhat unconventional comparisons at sometimes but refuse it at others.

grizzled acorn
#

if the enemy has no AA they literally cannot even shoot at those units

#

that is their principal design concern

#

and even the flying units have more DPS for cost than the sprinter despite that

#

although their real DPS is kinda hard to actually know

real siren
#

Okay but we keep going back and forth between it being totally unguarded and guarded peepoclown

This is moving the goal posts. You chose one of these two when it better fits whatever stat or tactic you are arguing for or against at the moment. If they don't have AA they literally cannot shoot at those units yes - if the only have lobbers, artillery, and slow moving missiles, they also will never hit the sprinters. Hounds can hit them some of the time. Gunslingers will obliterate them and almost any other raiders/spam units but pretty much no one builds them because they are kind of weird.

Practically, it's utterly useless to talk about what is more effective when nothing is there because legit any unit can attack something undefended. You can have a constructor walk up and reclaim anything if no one is there to give a shit. In real scenarios, there will be stuff in the way, people will react, and you will need to adapt accordingly.

grizzled acorn
#

gunships countering hounds is purely because hounds dont even shoot at them (at least, not well enough to matter in practice)

#

you need AA units

#

so what is the point of comparing their effectiveness against each other

#

obviously one can shoot at the other, and essentially no return fire is possible without other units

#

hounds do shoot at sprinters

#

and with gauss mode they do hit them a quite appreciable fraction of the time

#

it would be tantamount to having raiders inside an area of only AA porc which obviously goes great for the raiders

real siren
#

I didn't mean them countering hounds - I just mean if you have both bots and air for some weird reason, or your teammate has one and you have the other, finding out whether or not they have AA, lobbers, or lasers, is important in figuring out what unit could best destroy or get passed a defended location. So comparing them is important because we have to take in consideration how this affects the balance of all the other raider(or raider adjacent) units at the very least.

Also, I know we keep clowning on like the 10-20% speed difference, but that becomes a huge deal the more skill you have. Really. give a 5 ts player and a 20 ts player a unit with 20% speed and the 20 ts player will leverage that to way better effect. Now scale that up to the high tier and pro level players - If I can leverage it at 23 ts, how much more use can a 30, 40, or 50 ts player get out of exploiting that advantage?

Some units are just worse at different skill levels. That kind of sucks but, that is where relative skill comes into play.

grizzled acorn
#

you keep harping on about skill level this skill level that you do realize I am TS 28 right

#

I know how to raid

#

that unit is terrible at it

#

pawns are literally better

fluid seal
#

20% are cool but holy hell sprinters lose a lot of stats for that

real siren
#

🤦

Okay give that unit now to someone at lvl 40 or 50, and or now buff any of it's stats even more when all of them individually are better than the next one anyway. 25% speed? That is fast as fuck for a land unit. More HP? So now it can survive even longer under sustained fire. Etc etc etc - any bonus it has gets amplified even more the higher up in TS you get as players reach the skill ceiling. With how fragile eco is, making them even 25% faster than the next best unit means it can get to a spot the other unit takes roughly ten seconds to get to in 8. The longer the distance, the worse this gap gets. 20 seconds? 15 seconds. 40 seconds? 30 seconds. A full minute? 45 seconds.

Everything you own can be dead in like 5 seconds if the units get back there in time.

Knowing how to raid and hitting the skill ceiling are different things, if you perfected how to raid that could make you an insanely strong team player getting you at least into the 30's-40's. Didn't you say you've played this game since like, the 90's and are only ts 28? I've played this game for a month and I am ts 23. I respect your experience to an extent but, if I am getting better use out of the unit than you then there is clearly something different between our playstyles that allows me to be better with the unit than you. That doesn't mean I am better than you, but that I use sprinters better than you.

grizzled acorn
#

anyone who knows how to raid will literally be able to do exactly the same thing with Blitz tanks that you might do with Sprinters; the 10% speed means almost nothing compared to costing half as much

fluid seal
#

i been playing for less than a month i'm at 25 what your point?

real siren
real siren
fluid seal
#

you only one who talking about skill issue

real siren
#

No, other people brought it up in the past. You just ignore them.

#

Devs brought up how the unit is intended to be used vs how people want it to be used. Devs brought up how much a couple seconds can make the difference between winning or losing when it comes to raider units - other players brought up that sprinters were used by finalists recently - etc. I am sure mentors and other people in the chat also commented on some comparisons being bad, as well as misusing the units or not working creatively with them to fill other roles.

grizzled acorn
#

okay so you're saying the devs do not like raider units at all and intentionally made them shit

#

because you can actually have undefended stuff killed in seconds

real siren
#

Here we go again arguing for it being undefended like it exists in a vacuum and ignoring the fact that in most practical cases the raiders are likely to experience some resistance on the front and along the way.

grizzled acorn
#

yes they are I never said otherwise

real siren
#

You literally just said you could have undefended shit killed in seconds.

grizzled acorn
#

but obviously defended things require either overwhelming numbers of raiders or other units

#

in practice raiders are likely to either be killed by a strong enemy, or need to overcome light resistance oftentimes

#

regardless of whether you are facing zero opposition or heavy opposition, pawns are superior at both

real siren
#

pepeyep Bro what the fuck are you trying to argue right now. Is it defended or not? Okay, so it's not. Throw the cheapest unit at it. No one cares.

Oh, there is a front line of units and defenses, along with trickle in units and some light defenses along the way? Okay, literally 1 second means the difference here between blowing up their entire base and stopping the raiders.

If you want your best odds at getting at least one unit in, even a single sprinter is a good option because every stat is tilted just a bit in their favor against all other counterparts that if you cannot manage to catch up to their units or intercept/reposition appropriately, the 10% extra speed alone is lethal.

fluid seal
#

i think you really underestimate total HP

real siren
#

Are you talking to me, or Ledarsi?

fluid seal
#

you

grizzled acorn
#

definitely you im the one saying total HP is important

fluid seal
#

if you compare blitz to sprinter you loss 50% HP which will matter a lot when you try to break trough light defences

#

not sure 10% speed will compensate

real siren
#

That is a very cute argument to make since the sprinter has more HP than individual pawns meaning you will keep more real dps with 1 sprinter as opposed to 4 pawns.

If your spinter takes 99% damage along the way, it has the same dps. If your pawns as a group take 99% damage along the way, the group has lost 3/4ths of it's dps.

This is why Raghna made fun of you for not just making endless ticks vs marauders. Ticks have better total HP.

fluid seal
#

yeah but you need to lose 3 pawns to have less total DPS which more HP than sprinter

grizzled acorn
#

yeah thats not an accurate assessment of that discussion- marauders in fact have excellent HP and DPS for cost

real siren
fluid seal
#

not really

real siren
#

Bro you can only spread the damage out so thin, and that isn't up to you to decide. Pawns have just over a third the HP sprinters have, which makes their combat lifespan exceptionally shorter. Plus plenty of things one or two shot pawns, giving any 1 sprinter a sincerely better chance at getting past just on HP alone and not considering they are faster and are only 1 unit as opposed to multiple which is easier for AOE to hit.

We've already been over this too you guys are just ignorant and butthurt.

#

Sprinters are 20% faster than pawns and have nearly 3x the hp.

Saying "not really" is such a ridiculous thing to say.

deft stream
fluid seal
#

335 HP ws 690 HP its 50% not 30

deft stream
#

Much faster and more mobile

real siren
#

Shiiiieett I misread it.

My bad.

50% still means it's likely to take 2-3 more shots to kill than a pawn of anything that is burst.

deft stream
#

Amphibious even. Can shoot up. Same hp

#

Just tier up

#

Everything sprinter isnt

real siren
#

Right, and ticks can't even go in shallow water and pawns get obliterated by AoE. Sprinters can dodge AoE, take more shots, deal more damage, and because there are less of them for better stats they are less of a liability than pawns or ticks are.

The same or similar arguments can be applied to the sprinter vs the marauder.

grizzled acorn
#

except marauder is actually far superior in efficiency in all areas

fluid seal
#

sprinters mass per mass literally can't take more shots

#

i'm not saying sprinters are bad i'm saying they overpriced

deft stream
#

They can take less shots even

#

Sniper snipes 1 sprinter

#

Or 1 grunt out of 4

#

Arguing one is more affected by are is useless when other is much more harshly affected by both strong aoe and strong single target

#

My liche doesn't care about your sprinters double hp, it kills as many sprinters as it kills grunts

grizzled acorn
#

for a scout likely to die the sprinter's high cost is a problem, for a small raid pawns are better, for a large raid pawns are better, and for massive scale the marauder is hilariously more practical than a great many sprinters, and in fact so are pawns

deft stream
#

Same for plasma cannons. Tzars, fat boys

fluid seal
#

licheing raider units which in your base pepeomg

deft stream
#

I did that few times

#

Ideally they don't get that far

#

You can't outrun planes

#

And you can aim on the ground for truly tactical tac nukes

fluid seal
#

you can dodge t1/t2 bombers

deft stream
#

Yeah.
But liche is bit... different

fluid seal
#

i mean its 2k unit

deft stream
#

And its a must have for fusion era armada air

fluid seal
#

so i guess

deft stream
#

If you play that, you will have 1-2 at all times

#

They can stop pushes in their tracks

real siren
#

And it's like, 900 metal plus t3 vs 190 metal plus t2 vs 48/17 metal plus t1.

Pawn is a step up from tick, more hp, more damage, further range, can walk across shallow water, doesn't get insta killed by global junos. It costs significantly more compared to the tick, but it has pretty significant improvements.

Sprinter is a step up from the pawn, it's considerably faster, twice as durable, and has more dps.

Marauder is a huge step up from the sprinter but the cost difference is really big there.

Also platys, almost no AoE can hit sprinters because it's all way to slow. Hounds have trouble hitting them on gauss, the only things that can hit them reliably are fat boys because if their huge AoE if the sprinters don't micro, and even then sprinters can soak 1 shot that is indirect vs every pawn dying at any point within the aoe - and I suppose liche but, I can split sprinters up and you can only hit one, or one group of them, at a time then. Pawns are going to be way easier targets being 20% slower.

grizzled acorn
#

Sprinter is a step up from the pawn, it's considerably faster, twice as durable, and has more dps.
The whole point here is that it actually is not

#

and it should be

#

twice as durable sounds nice until you realize its 4x the price

#

more DPS sounds nice except its just 20% more

fluid seal
deft stream
#

Marauder is about same step up as sprinter pawn difference. In metal cost tho

real siren
#

Bruh sprinters when used right are basically immune to all plasma except a portion of hound shots and fatboys, sometimes.

Everything else will miss most of the time because of how much faster they are, and when they are hit they are going to last twice as long because they have double the HP.

#

Like, how can that not be viewed as an insane improvement over the pawn when you just need one sprinter and 4 seconds to destroy a shit load of econ.

deft stream
#

Go play 4 games of not complete noob ts (20+) and share replays of your sprinter use pls

#

We can see if you manage to do anything that grunt wouldn't do

#

Can display all the dodge and raid potential of the unit.

real siren
#

Go find the person who mentioned the finalists using the sprinters and watch their games.

I am fine doing that when I actually go play some games. I am confident I can prove they are better both offensively and defensively than either of you say; but in most cases any bonuses these units are going to be given are amplified the higher up in the ladder you get, except for ledarsi somehow I guess.

It's almost 3 am here so if at any point in the future I play land and use sprinters I will show you how I use them.

deft stream
#

I saw flash use sprinters

#

It was funny lol

#

And they got dunked on

real siren
#

Do you have the link to that video? The other guy didn't share it.

deft stream
#

No, i played the game

#

I'll share next replay someone trolls in

real siren
#

Wait did you play in the finals then or are you just referencing a personal game where Flash used them

deft stream
#

Normal game. I don't watch tourneys so dunno if anyone used it there

real siren
#

I didn't watch the tourneys either, someone in the thread a few days ago was talking about how sprinters were used in the 4v4 finals but I couldn't find the video myself.

sage abyss
#

I've been watching the tourneys, but I can't find where I thought I saw Sprinters being used in the 4v4, looking through the vods now. iirc they were about a group of 20? And used in a frontline/skirmishing capacity.

grizzled acorn
#

the very fact that you struggle to find one instance of someone building it... is telling

#

probably has been built on rare occasion though

#

that it is notable and surprising that the unit was used once

sage abyss
#

Oh yeah, it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment iirc, still can't find it in the vods. I was excited for the lil' guys, such a cool unit.

Through all these tourney games, though, we see pawns being used in the particular role that Sprinters 'should' fill. Reinforces my belief that they're just too weak in marginal uses to be worth the T2 lab time. Can't wait for more 2v2 tourneys, they have the best chance there probably.

real siren
#

I am still peeved though that - yes okay you want to see it in action sure - but just ignore the unit being 20x faster, having 20x more dps, and having 2x the health?

yes at 4x the cost and that seems steep, but the health and speed alone combined make it a ridiculously better.

You're going to survive twice the shots pawns would and even if they are just running and not micro'd, tracking will miss more often, though I don't know how much speed effects base accuracy, Faster units are harder to hit even if they are just running straight though. And then, a missed shot is less likely to still hit 1 other sprinter because to get equal value to 1 sprinter you need Four pawns.

real siren
fluid seal
#

ah yes they not used in tourney coz tourney players too low skill got it

real siren
#

they were used in a recent tourney though...?

sage abyss
#

Yeah but like, 'not really.' Really wish I could find it

#

In tourneys it LOOKS more like "I'd rather be producing hounds with my T2 lab rn, and I can get prettyyyy much the same function out of my T1 lab with pawns, so. Why put in that effort?"

real siren
#

Killing 1 sprinter takes 5 shots of gauss standing still. It takes 8 to kill 4 pawns standing still.

2 shots of gauss kill 1 sprinter, 5 shots of gauss kill 4 pawns.

Just standing still based on hp alone, 4 might have more hp than one sprinter but the spread is pretty awful for pawns imo.

5-8 is better than half, 2-5 is less than half but sprinter got overkilled - With more units these ratios get worse for the pawn a lot faster than they do for the sprinters.

fluid seal
real siren
#

This is specifically meant to be taken in the context against plasma weapons - all of which, even pawns, have a very slight to very large AoE, and weapons that fire faster but less accurately are going to kill pawns faster than they kill sprinters because of the weapon spread still dealing damage to adjacent targets - where as even with the tiny AoE that is going to matter way less against sprinters.

Are they niche? Yes. Sure. Maybe they are a bit underpowered for their price or intended role. But this is such a ridiculously snowbally unit that just 5% more speed probably makes it totally broken against all other land units trying to intercept.

Again, if it takes a blitz 30 seconds to get to the backline eco from mid, sprinters can do it in 27 seconds. And one sprinter at 1% hp only needs 4 seconds to kill a converter. So 3 extra seconds here is a big deal - assuming one sprinter gets to a clump of converts 3 seconds ahead of the next fastest unit besides ticks and rascals - you have a single second to kill it before it chain reacts a shitload of eco.

Change that by 25% and that's an additional 1.2 seconds. Meaning if you are chasing down with blitz and weren't already ahead of them, you've lost. If you have blitz by the time sprinters come out you're probably working on t2 veh, if you manage to have a t1 botlabe and make ticks you might be able to get them out in time to help but it only takes .5 seconds for a sprinter to kill a tick and sprinters have longer range, sooo.... probably not going to happen.

Like, if the balance was not so finely tuned, I would agree that sprinters are under powered. But bumping any of their stats a little bit in comparison to how easy it is to kill t2 eco if a raid gets by - is going to be even more extremely small tune ups to the unit to avoid it getting overpowered.

grizzled acorn
#

30 seconds vs 27 seconds is not worth double the price

#

that is to cross THE MAP

real siren
#

No, that is to get from the center of ATG to the backline.

grizzled acorn
#

yes as in the map

real siren
#

No the entire map is from one side to the other.

grizzled acorn
#

that is just not a difference maker while double the HP in blitzes might be

#

and this is a T1 unit we are comparing it to

real siren
#

Did you even read all of it or are you being ignorant again.

grizzled acorn
#

I read what you wrote and it is nonsense

#

3 seconds to cross the map is immaterial

#

4 seconds to kill is way too slow for the metal

#

there are few scenarios where that 3 second window is going to matter while overpowering the LLT or nano towers will

#

and that is for a very long trip too

#

only 3 seconds

#

that 3 seconds costs you double the metal and less DPS

real siren
#

🤦 You're fucking brain dead dude no wonder Raghna told no one to ping him again in here.

4 seconds is too slow for the metal No other unit is as fast as is.
If you can fucking read 3 seconds is 3/4ths of the kill time for ONE sprinter. Bumping that by 5% means it gets there 1.2 seconds faster, meaning it's speed advantage against the next fastest unit is equal to it's ttk. In a race between sprinter and blitz to save or destroy t2 converter, blitz loses.

hp totals matter the pawns lose HP faster for like 3 reasons, they are slower, they have less HP, and they are grouped making them insanely worse against any AoE.

It's too little dps Anything else is always going to lose dps faster due to less health and less speed. Even if the unit isn't micro'd at all, less health and less speed = more shots hit by default and less shots to kill.

You're such a fucking dick constantly harking on about single stats for god damn days and dragging everyone around in circles.

The unit is niche, but the balance is so stupidly tuned here between these different units that nudging just speed or dps by 5%, or HP by an additional 33% at most makes the unit broken.

It's speed and dps are relatively close values so increasing either by more than 5% is a huge buff in comparison to the other raiders.

More than 33%, nah probably 20-25% means it can take three or more direct hits from hounds plasma rounds. When taking gauss rounds they already take 5 direct hits to kill, bump that up by just 20% that's a whole additional shot that hounds are already unlikely to hit.

Fucks sake man. I'm out. For good.

#

All notifications are now turned off for the thread and I am unfollowing.

Adios.

fluid seal
grizzled acorn
#

you are attacking the enemy's territory, even their BASE if you are after their eco- the time to travel there is NOT important, it WILL be defended

#

waiting 3 seconds to have DOUBLE the HP and DPS is obviously preferable

#

the idea that 117 speed (111 +5%) would be completely busted is preposterous

#

as is the idea that a 190 metal unit with 120 DPS would be busted with a bit more, seeing as the Fiend is 200 metal, supposedly a raider, with a 240 DPS flamethrower AOE

#

a Fiend will take a few seconds longer to cross the whole map but has 50% more HP and straight double the single target DPS

#

for +10 metal

#

going to 140 or even 160 DPS is not outrageous

#

all the other raiders are already better than it across the board

#

pawns are the main point of comparison where a 48 metal unit has 100 DPS and 335 health, and is admittedly slower

cunning crescent
#

I actually used Sprinters against Fiends. They’re funny to even avoid flanking from FIVE directions LMAO

cunning crescent
grizzled acorn
#

I don't know- although even if they did I doubt it would be something you would build in response to marauders

#

I suspect the marauder range and one shot would be too much but I dunno

cunning crescent
grizzled acorn
#

I dunno never seem them fight

#

could be two shots

real siren
#

I somehow still got a ping despite turning off all notifications.

You can use sprinters to not only get flank damage but catch marauders and bodyblock them to stop further progression.

That is how I've used them in the past. You just keep pushing them back and with better speed and more numbers it's hard for them to keep moving forward.

cunning crescent
#

Huh. Bodyblocking. I’ve never considered that

deft stream
#

Ticks do marauder hunting wayyyyy more efficiently

#

It's not even funny

real siren
#

Yeah you can push a ton of shit around. With many fast units you can do this, I've done it with ticks as well but - ticks are also a huge liability and are better for spamming into big and slow ass units.

There is more surface area for ticks to take advantage of for pushing, firing, and exploding onto the larger a unit is.

Some really big units just don't give a fuck and crush the smaller ones, like literally when they walk forward they crush the units. And because of their mass might not get pushed nearly as much if at all in some cases, but yeah you can push and trap units with others to stop them from progressing.

#

Platys, if I am not mistaken you were the, or one, of the mfers that dismissed juno's being a counter to tickspam.

I never make 1 juno. I make 4. If I am pushing into your base, I can saturate the entire area and more and all ticks + tick production, and your radar, and your jammers, are gone/stalled out until the juno wears off. But I could just wait to have like, 2-3 stored up giving me 8-12 juno's to stop your ticks indefinitely while I raid.

cunning crescent
#

Huh

#

Never thought of those for invasion tactics. I considered them a defensive structure

deft stream
#

They are poor for the job.
His 4 June shots cost more then anything they kill and have year travel time

#

And if you spend 20k metal on your marauder ambush, you probably died long time before then

real siren
#

4 juno shots will kill literally hundreds of ticks, instantly, and possibly thousands over the course of their duration if they keep just spamming them into the juno's aoe.

A single juno only costs 640 metal. So. I don't know where you just pulled that number from.

I can also just, fire the juno's before the marauders get there and in sequence so that they all land in front of the marauders as they walk into their AoE.

You have had 0 respectable input in this thread. You and your smooth ass brain are getting blocked.

fluid seal
#

every shot costs 200 metal and what 5k energy or smth

eternal condor
#

FirmCommunist, do you play 1v1, too?

real siren
fluid seal
#

what

deft stream
#

...
Everything in this game is over time

cunning crescent
deft stream
#

You just have to pay the full price before using it.

cunning crescent
# fluid seal what

I think it’s in referring to being more economically manageable

deft stream
#

Or 1 liche killing 8 at once lol

fluid seal
#

i mean building units also overtime

cunning crescent
fluid seal
#

if i could just on demand spend 200 metal to launch juno oh boy

deft stream
fluid seal
eternal condor
cunning crescent
deft stream
#

Suicide runs with liche are often good too

real siren
fluid seal
#

its 2k metal nuclear bomber

real siren
#

I generally do well against people my TS and a few TS above but someone like badosu fucking basically trolled me in my games with thme.

cunning crescent
#

I need it

deft stream
#

You can blow up clumped aa that's worth more then the liche itself in a bombing run

#

It dies too, but it can trade 1:1 with mobile aa

eternal condor
fluid seal
deft stream
fluid seal
#

with some scout distraction i presume?

deft stream
#

There was some t1 aa in area too, buy let's face it, that does nothing

#

Nope

#

Just liche

fluid seal
#

huh

deft stream
#

1 killed aa, other hound ball

#

Lost 1

real siren
#

I still don't know where the 20k really came from but I suppose maybe that was supposed to include units + juno and their rockets?

I can start building juno's at t1, by the time I have t3 I'll have like a dozen juno missiles ready to fire, and I don't have to put a bunch of BP into them I can just commit like 1 con to build it over time.

All the missiles effects last 25 seconds on the ground. With 4 junos missiles, if you have even like 4 factories together making ticks, I can keep it locked down for almost 2 minutes. Your base is gone if you were relying on that to stop marauders. Pawns, sprinters, or gunships are all better options. Fiends do okay but they are a fair bit slower than sprinters and drastically slower than gunships.

fluid seal
#

mate no mater on which point in game you spend metal you spend it

deft stream
#

T3: 7.5 Juno + rocketx4= 6k

#

So 7 marauder ambush is 20k

real siren
#

Yeah if I spend 640 metal when I am on like 3 mex that is a huge amount of my resources. Each new source of income reduces the cost relative to my income though so, making it right at t1 out the gate would be stupid. Starting them between t1 and t2 and not throwing all of your bp into them so you still have resources for other things means you can continue to spend resources on eco, tech, or units in the mean time.

#

That's why if you're frontline, if you throw just 1 constructor on a t2 factory at 7-8 minutes, it'll still be done before 15 minutes and it'll let you continue making units and eco at the same time.

grizzled acorn
#

that is a very suboptimal way to look at efficient use of build power- it is generally best to build things quickly and move on to the next thing

real siren
#

Everything you say is contradictory and has little nuance or consideration for alternative tactics.

grizzled acorn
#

contradictory? this is pretty common sense

eternal condor
grizzled acorn
#

half finished things are not useful until done

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

building 2 adv mex at the same time is strictly worse than finishing one and then the other for example

cunning crescent
#

Really though why isn’t that a thing?

real siren
#

And yet - in certain situations it's preferable to continue making units instead of stopping almost all other production to tech. Funny how that works.

grizzled acorn
#

naturally factories and buildings cannot be serialized

eternal condor
grizzled acorn
#

your factory should be running all the time and if you build a building at the same time you are doing two things

fluid seal
real siren
#

Hooray, I prioritized getting t2 and since I stopped making units I am now dead for being greedy. Congratulations emozstonks

fluid seal
#

lab builder on low t1 lab on high

real siren
#

Oh, that is totally finee.

fluid seal
#

t1 lab will get as much income as it need to build units you currently need

real siren
#

Yeah no I agree with that - that's good. But you can start that at like 7 minutes and have it done at a reasonable time while still building unit is what I am saying, instead of hoping you can afford to get it by focusing all BP on it 5-7 minutes later.

grizzled acorn
#

if that works for you thats cool, but that metal in the lab you are building is not doing anything until it is done and you could have it be units or structures and then finish the lab quickly later

#

5-7 minutes constructing is a long time

real siren
#

I am fucking typing to much again.

#

It's contextual - regardless of lane outcome it's a safer option because if you lose lane, you're still already building t2 and at minute 7, if it only takes 5-7 minutes to make, you're getting it out at 12-14 minutes. Still a good time.

If it's even or you win, you can likely just switch BP over to it and finish it sooner than normal.

I generally only do it on frontline, low metal maps, or assym spots like the canyons on atg.

deft stream
#

If I'm front line, my t2 is done in 40s...

real siren
#

I just see 1 blocked message all the time now and it's p funny ngl.

deft stream
#

You start too early. Just chill and have it done when banking metal

real siren
#

lol

grizzled acorn
#

what if you made mexes at minute 5-7 and then started the lab later? would you not have more metal?

#

instead of the metal in the lab it is doing something

fluid seal
#

if you just dumped 1.5k metal in lab which you been building for 3 minutes its 1.5k metal of units not on front line

real siren
fluid seal
#

passively building lab for 8 minutes are having a lot of metal siting doing nothing

deft stream
#

This guy won't accept advice >.>

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

or because BAR is not the same

#

but ok

fluid seal
#

reason why its very good idea to start building lab there a lot of reclaim are that lab have very low cost to build time ratio and your cons can shove a lot of metal in it very quickly

fluid seal
deft stream
#

I'm rank 29, joined after winters vid.
So, is my opinion (same as his btw) more legit?

#

Well, not rank.
Open skill thingy

fluid seal
#

give him a second to come up with reason why you actually bad player

real siren
# grizzled acorn or because BAR is not the same

Then why would you mention your 20 years of playing games like it - Are the games similar enough for you to leverage that experience, or too dissimilar that 20 years playing does not equate to more experience than your peers in BAR?

grizzled acorn
#

why do you keep coming back to peoples TS when you are the lowest one here

fluid seal
#

yeah lmao

real siren
#

Answer the question.

grizzled acorn
#

it doesnt affect the validity of someones opinion

deft stream
#

Shhhhh, truth hurts

real siren
#

It does if you want to leverage your experience against another persons opinion.

#

Answer the question.

grizzled acorn
#

its almost like it is similar but different to BA and ZK and OTA

#

imagine that

#

the very thrust of this thread is that the Sprinter does not appear to be doing its job the way its predecessors do

real siren
#

So then the difference is too significant to apply your knowledge from those games here - were you a top player in those games since you played them for 20 years or were you still mid tier TS then?

Me and pure tilt, if they also haven't played the other games, have a significantly higher climb rate than you is my point - if the games are similar enough, you've only climbed to TS 28 in 20 years while in a month I've gotten to 23 and pure tilt has gotten to 25.

If the games are not similar enough, then it's very valid that both me and puretilt may be lower but since we've still not been playing this game as long as you, our TS is not fully accurate yet anyway and we're gaining on you.

I say that because when I mentioned I was a diamond SC II player to try and leverage my skill with micro, you leveraged being a 20 year veteran of the game and ts 28.

Does this shit matter to you or not. You flip flop like every 10 messages over several days to a different position on the matter.

grizzled acorn
#

do you not understand that your trueskill only starts when you sign up for BAR

real siren
#

TS, Rank, League, whatever - I am talking about your skill level/ladder ranking relative to the other veterans.

fluid seal
#

getting to high TS takes grind

real siren
#

That is valid.

fluid seal
#

getting to 23 trivial getting to even 30 are immensely hard

real siren
#

I beat lvl 30's though so I expect to get there soon. I'm good enough at naval play to reliably beat rank 30's often enough to climb.

fluid seal
#

once i sorted out that i need to build units i got to 22 in couple days

real siren
#

Lol that is valid

fluid seal
#

good enough at naval play
my condolences

real siren
#

xD

#

I like naval play and I routinely host water/flooded maps. Nunyunumi and Vanaja, both ts 30~ join in and I play against them often, and I've started to win against them more than I lose.

Pretty much the only person to outright clown on me recently in 1v1 was badosu, everyone else between his ts and mine was even.

deft stream
#

I noticed 2 hurdles here so far.
When you learn to not stop your eco is 25ts.
When you learn to keep making units is 30.

fluid seal
#

i never stop ecoing as front :]

#

people never have balls to push

real siren
#

Yeah you shouldn't. No one should stop ecoing ever lol.

#

At least not for any extended amount of time, anyway.

fluid seal
#

and then at like 20 mins you have more eco than your back line

real siren
#

It honestly sometimes does pan out like that if backline is fucking about.

fluid seal
#

anyway make sprinters 20-30% cheaper give them 20-30% more DPS will be brilliant unit i gonna go piss

real siren
#

rip

#

I feel like the only viable thing would be to make them a bit cheaper. Touching their stats in anyway other than that fucks with how fast they destroy eco and that is a really fine line between all the raiders rn other than the difference between t2 and t3 raider units.

grizzled acorn
#

a marauder will kill a T2 energy converter pretty fast too

real siren
#

Yeah absolutely

fluid seal
#

i mean pawns shred eco

grizzled acorn
#

having a raider that doesnt is just weird

real siren
#

Yes both are true but you aren't just paying for the marauder you're paying for t3 which is like 9000 metal or some shit.

fluid seal
#

i mean even ticks shred eco they just die when 1 windmill dies

real siren
#

Pawns can shred eco but like, for the 100th time, they have many disadvantages that stack against their favor the further they have to go to raid. They die and lose real dps faster, take longer to get there, much more susceptible to plasma shots, etc etc.

I don't think sprinters are better in pawns in every single situation, that just isn't how armada works and not what the unit was designed for. For general purposes, yes go for whatever else you feel is worth it. But in certain circumstances and certain situations, sprinter is king over any other t1/t2 land raider. Making them cheaper would make this situation a bit less niche without directly buffing them because they are already better than most other units in every way, other than their cost.

fluid seal
#

problem with sprinters they will take considerable amount of time to kill anything but most fragile eco building like windmills t1 mex and converters

grizzled acorn
#

making them cheaper is clearly a buff but ok

#

it is a good way to go about it

fluid seal
#

spritners at 50% of current cost might be kinda insane

grizzled acorn
#

yeah that would be very strong most likely too much

fluid seal
#

actual pawn upgrade

grizzled acorn
#

95 metal is too cheap

#

at that price you could and perhaps would brain melt them over pawns

real siren
#

Yeah it's clearly a buff but if they're only like 20-30% cheaper that only equates to making a couple more out of say, 10. That ratio gets better the more you make, but massing sprinters isn't really their designed role, anyway.

grizzled acorn
#

they are double the price and have double the HP so the ratio is the same as for pawns with lower DPS for cost, but faster movespeed

real siren
#

You could and that might be a problem if it's overpowered at 20-30% cheaper even, but it's a less direct buff than giving a straight up stat boost.

fluid seal
#

i feel like you have price very detached from all other untis stats or smth like you almost always ignore it

#

no making units cheaper are very direct buff

#

you get more stats per your money

grizzled acorn
#

more bodies for your money

real siren
#

If there are more of the units then they're more likely to get hit by projectiles unless they are pretty far spaced out or split.

It's the same issue with 4 pawns vs 1 sprinter just not so awful like that matchup is. If less units have better stats, that is less of a liability, and also less for you to manage. If you have more units with the same stats, that's a moderate improvement but you now have to manage more units and their EHP is spread out over more bodies, meaning they might not do as good as just having better but less units. More units for objectively worse stats is kind of fucked, you have way more shit to try and micro, much higher risk of just losing huge fractions of your units, if they're also slower and have lower dps, their effectiveness can drop drastically compared to the other alternatives.

fluid seal
#

counter point: you can split more units to more places diving attention even more

real siren
#

In practical use this varies, and overall the sprinter as is, is not the most versatile unit to the majority of the player base. So something should change to make them more appealing, but it my experience the benefits you list of having more pawns or whatever is a liability to me.

grizzled acorn
#

very useful especially for a raider to split up

#

also drag line and auto control groups... it's not that hard to manage an arbitrarily large number of units

#

alt+1 on your sprinter and now all your sprinters are always ctrl group 1 even brand new ones without manual assignment

#

drag line where you want them to space themselves

#

even spread along that line

#

better than ctrl z and reassign every few seconds

real siren
#

I know this - but trying to micro more but slower and weaker units is more difficult than trying to micro fewer but better units.

Like, if I have 10 sprinters, that's like 40 something pawns I am gonna to try and dodge anything from thugs to fatboys with. It's just, not happening.

1 sprinter can just out micro nearly all plasma thrown at it. Consider if you get a sprinter out and their frontline is just thugs, missile bots, maybe an llt - the single sprinter is getting past without a question. 4 pawns will probably just die before getting in range in a lot of cases.

grizzled acorn
#

imo you are greatly overstating the advantage in terms of evasiveness of being 10% to 20% faster- the main thing for evading projectiles is to constantly change direction

#

they are attempting to lead the shot and will do so towards the wrong place

#

any unit can do it

real siren
#

Yes, but projectiles also have AoE and units need to be fast enough to outrun AoE while zigzaging which means they are not always moving directly away from the AoE's center.

grizzled acorn
#

also this level of micromanagement to turn a unit from useless to usable is not really a good place to start from- pawns benefit more or less equally well and they can be brain melted

real siren
#

Or rather - they are less likely to move out of the aoe's center. If you are moving away from the center of a circle in any direction you're moving at the same rate away from the center of impact lol.

grizzled acorn
#

you expect pawns to die and thats fine

#

sprinters are so costly they are not expendable but their role as a raider is inherently dangerous and expendable

#

the higher investment means you need to do more damage to justify it

#

pawn can kill a mex and you're in the black

real siren
#

I mean I don't expect them to die, they die. If someone has thugs you stop making pawns and switch to your own plasma or vehicles generally. maces and thugs trade really really well against other t1 units since they tend to clump together and they don't have to be that accurate to get damage off.

grizzled acorn
#

sprinter actually must do more even just one

#

and there is a similar chance of encountering huge enemy strength and just dying

real siren
#

If you have 4 pawns, it is more than 20% more likely they will take damage while trying to fight plasma since aoe counters more units. That's it. Not only does it counter higher unit counts, it gets much worse if they are slower and have less hp.

There isn't any other argument to be made here - all 2-3 of your pawns are going to be taking damage from aoe at the same time, even if it is indirect hits, vs a sprinter catching a couple of bolts here and there but having more hp and a much higher chance of dodging shots.

fringe yacht
real siren
#

Fucking, THANK YOU.

grizzled acorn
#

you know if it were a little more cost effective it might still benefit from being micromanaged

fluid seal
#

You extremely exaggerate average plasma aoe

real siren
#

Listen, and respond to this point.

one pawn is already slower and has less hp than 1 sprinter. four pawns have all of the disadvantages of 1 pawn, but they also take damage up to 4x as fast since aoe or stray shots are more likely to hit the other pawns while trying to get passed.

1 sprinter does not have any of these disadvantages. Less overall dps and health, but when it's divided up to 4x and all 4 of those units can take damage from the same source at once, more often, then it's gonna be a bad day.

real siren
fluid seal
#

If the fucking hug each other

real siren
#

Which excessively MORE pawns will do the more of them you get????

#

The more pawns you have the WORSE they are in this situation.

#

Any plasma is far more effective the more units you throw into it.

#

Or AoE in general.

#

AoE only applies to a unit once, but can apply to all units in it's radius.

fluid seal
#

Also as stated before you dodge by making units shot where you not going to be to begin with by zigzagging

#

And even when are hits 4 units its not 4x damage coz fall off exist

real siren
#

And pawns are slower which means stray shots and AoE are still likely to hit, and the more of them you have, the worse that gets.

A unit that is 20% slower than it's competitor while zigzaging still has 20% less time to get out of the range of AoE. The more of them you have even if you do get out of AoE with the intended unit, the more likely the stray shot just hits other units.

grizzled acorn
#

you can spread quite easily with a line

#

vs aoe you should be

#

its not going to quadruple the dmg

real siren
#

SO I am gonna spread 40 pawns out to try and raid which basically nullifies the point of any advantage in numbers since they're dps is now split apart half of the frontline, or I get 10 sprinters that can just dodge the projectiles to begin with and can all go to the same area.

grizzled acorn
#

if you want to assault an enemy with splash you just drag a line that is wider

fluid seal
#

Pawns have only 20% less dps

grizzled acorn
#

if its a high alpha attack you just sacrifice one and then attack

#

like a fatboy

fluid seal
#

Also you can make funny Square squads be pressing move + alt iirc mb it's ctrl

real siren
#

We're going completely and utterly smooth brain again by only considering one stat and assuming 40 pawns spread out over a huge area will do the same damage as 10 sprinters being zigzagged into one area.

fluid seal
#

What

#

Not huge just don't fucking hug each other

#

Also can you stop insulting us?

real siren
#

Okay, I will. It's just incredibly frustrating because it seems like I'm being taken for a ride talking to you guys because you sincerely talk in circles.

#

We've already talked about how pawns effective DPS gets reduced each time one dies so them already having 20% less dps, and less health, and being a easier target, is significant.

fluid seal
#

You one who keeps saying that 10-20% speed increase worth 70% loss of others stats

fringe yacht
#

I don't think any of you will ever see eye to eye on this.

1 side wants sprinters to do more than they currently can and will use whatever numbers, statistics and arguments to get those buffs. They don't really care about counter arguments because they're not concerned with any. They want sprinters to become stronger so they can use them how they like in mass assaults, which they can't right now because they were balanced not to do that.

The other is happy with the niche sprinters currently fill, and like that they are a niche unit with a high skill floor/ceiling. It's fine that sprinters lose horribly to pawns, because sprinters are not meant to fight in pitched battles like that. Back off, look for another entry point with your high mobility and keep the enemy pinned to their base and constantly on the defensive while you eco or tech switch.

You're not going to come to a consensus. Both sides fundamentally disagree on what the role of the sprinter is and whether it should be a cost effective unit in combat.

fluid seal
#

What no it doesn't need to be cost effective combat unit it need to be better tah generalists unit at its job

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

it is not just one of its stats

fluid seal
#

Jfc

real siren
#

It always comes back to one of their stats.

fringe yacht
grizzled acorn
#

no one

fluid seal
#

You one who forgets that that funny fast robot costs shit load

fringe yacht
#

so what should sprinters be better than? whats this generalist unit your comparing them to?

real siren
fluid seal
grizzled acorn
#

the sprinter should be a highly specialized raider that has short range, low survivability, but very high DPS and speed to attack undefended or lightly defended targets

#

real porc should be a non starter and you want to avoid the enemy army

#

what we have is basically a pawn for quadruple the price and a bit faster

fringe yacht
#

and?

real siren
real siren
fluid seal
#

It never worth using over pawns for rading

grizzled acorn
#

no that is referring to all of its stats at once

fringe yacht
#

? what do you mean. Sprinters are fast enough to exploit holes that pawns never could

real siren
fluid seal
#

Or blitzes but they from veh lab which you probly don't have

fringe yacht
#

hell, they can out run pawns. Sounds like it's filling it's niche well?

#

I thought sprinters were 10% faster? 10% is a lot. Just 1% means you only ever fight if you choose to fight

fluid seal
real siren
fluid seal
#

Let's compare titas to jugs

#

1 to 1

fringe yacht
#

well, the defending player needs a counter right? wouldn't be fair if I could spam sprinters and mercilessly kill my opponent. 4 to 1 sounds good to me

fluid seal
#

Sprinters still glass

fringe yacht
#

keep 2/3 pawns at base to box out sprinters, you have 1 extra to go to the front and attack. Sounds like a good counter to sprinter play that lets you counterattack too. To me, this sounds like a good balance point

#

in terms of cost

#

per unit

real siren
fluid seal
#

Holy shit

fringe yacht
#

hmm, actually considering sprinters win 1v1, you probably have to have 3 pawns at base. Sprinters are 20% faster, so pawns need a wider frontage to intercept them with the numbers and unit density to actually stop an attack. Youre gonna need more bodies at home to practically intercept a group of sprinters. so only 1 pawn gets to go to the frontline to counter attack

fluid seal
#

I'm done with you aoe clown

real siren
#

Okay that's fine you think pawns are equally as good as sprinters when it comes to tanking damage for some reason and have no fucking idea how effective hp and effective dps work but ok.

fluid seal
#

I think skill issue are inability to properly use pawns for raiding and use 5 units istead of propper rading party

grizzled acorn
#

this nebulous 'they will do huge damage and pawns or blitzes won't' does not make any sense and is completely unquantifiable and unsubstantiated; a raid of other units can attack a base too and arriving a couple seconds earlier does not appreciably change the equation of whether that is defended already or not

fluid seal
#

Do you ever tried to actually properly split units to avoid fucking aoe from shit like houds which have like 60 aoe

#

All you need are to not move as a fucking blob

#

90% of are are like 10 pawns need to fuck each other in order for 2 of them to take damage from same projectile and second one will take like 20% at best Holy fuck you think are way more prevalent then it is

real siren
# fluid seal All you need are to not move as a fucking blob

Yes, and even then the pawn is not fast enough in most cases to get out of the range of the aoe in time if the hounds are on plasma. If the hounds are set to gauss, there is less AoE but the projectile is way faster - and in both cases they two shot pawns. So like, hounds walking backwards are just going to blow pawns to shreds, like they almost always do.

grizzled acorn
#

also a blitz literally has a bigger footprint than a sprinter so this argument is sort of thin

real siren
#

Dude pawns struggle to overtake thugs and maces why do you think they'll fair better against t2 units when you could have sprinters and they could have a dozen of different units at t2 that are better in so many ways at dealing with pawns.

grizzled acorn
#

not that it matters as spacing is really not difficult

#

a group will auto space along a dragged line

real siren
#

Except for if they have relatively even numbers, or it's in a confined space, or his allies around him have different units, or like a ton of other shit.

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

if you're taking quadruple damage from your pawns being packed together like that your sprinters will do worse

#

both must be spread

fluid seal
#

Make snipers lmao or welders

real siren
fluid seal
#

They not cost to cost counter sure but they just very fast delete them and the will be usefull on battlefield

real siren
#

They don't delete them fast, they delete them in 1 shot but any additional sprinters will just kill the sniper then.

fluid seal
#

Sprinter raid group will not be big most likely

grizzled acorn
#

the sprinter should be an ideal counter to the sharpshooter, but everyone goes for ticks or grunts or pawns just to flak out the shooting

fluid seal
#

Just built walls actually if you afraid of raids

grizzled acorn
#

you will lose some attempting to get in close

#

that is how raiders work

#

notably different from assault units which are terrible against shooters

#

high HP is a perfect target

fluid seal
#

Like 160 metal to completely close off vulnerable path + an llt to make it extra hard

real siren
#

I can just go test that now tbh.

#

I should be asleep though it's 7 am peepoCantSleep

grizzled acorn
#

obviously it only fires once every 10 seconds so yeah if it is alone 2 will do

real siren
#

Oh okay ty

grizzled acorn
#

you are rolling the dice with the whole group you charge with though

real siren
#

I mean you always are if you're trying something like that.

grizzled acorn
#

short range, squishy, high DPS

#

yes that is how it works

#

unfortunately this unit is expensive and not very high DPS

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

there is almost no reason to build sprinters to attempt to counter sharpshooters when you could make ticks or pawns instead you will just spend more and lose more

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

starlights same issue

#

no reason to build sprinters as a counter even though that is supposed to work

#

mobile artillery is terrible in close quarters

fluid seal
#

They have less total hp fucking Christ and don't you dare talk about aoe again

#

Compressing stats are good unless you lose most of it them

fringe yacht
#

sprinters shouldn't counter starlights or sharpshooters....

You do know what you're saying right? You want the hyper fast unit, expressly designed for raiding light and unguarded areas, to run directly into the enemies main core army.

You want sprinters to be better pawns. I just want sprinters to be sprinters

grizzled acorn
#

mobile artillery that is exposed? might as well be a mex. Obviously if it is defended the defenders will kill your sprinters and you should hold off

#

that is another thing raiders do

#

I do not want sprinters to be "better pawns" I want them to be better raiders not brain melt sponges

fluid seal
#

Snipers and starlights have very high alpha and almost impossible to dodge so they hard to approach even with raider type

real siren
# fluid seal They have less total hp fucking Christ and don't you dare talk about aoe again

Bro fuck off their hp is split 4 ways. You don't understand effective HP and effective DPS. I have tried to explain it like over a dozen times now and you just don't get it. That doesn't just matter for AoE, it matters in all fights - but for AoE it has has much more of an impact because it'll damage more than one pawn. A laser will only damage one sprinter, the same as one pawn - but with 2x the HP, when you lose 2 pawns you've lost a ton of dps from your group. With AoE, it can only apply to sprinter once if it even hits, against more pawns it is more likely to hit more than one pawn, and more likely to hit because they are a slower bigger target.

If you spread them out - not as much, but then you've also negated the point of them having more dps and hp anyway because they're now too far apart for all the pawns to help each other at once.

fringe yacht
#

better raiders? But you keep arguing why they should be used to kill starlights and mausers and sharpshooters? Sounds like you actually want a better pawn

grizzled acorn
#

the speed difference may in fact make a difference in that context of charging units like sharpshooters or starlights or mausers or what have you

fringe yacht
#

because pawns already do all of that well, kill those exposed backliners I mean

grizzled acorn
#

yes because they are borderline defenseless

fringe yacht
#

lol no

grizzled acorn
#

if you get pawns in range of them?

#

yes

fluid seal
#

Okay dude explain effective hp

fringe yacht
#

they usually represent 70% of the enemies army metal value

#

wtf why should light raiding units be able to run into that and win

#

thats not defenseless

grizzled acorn
#

artillery units are effective against enemies at a distance not up close

fringe yacht
#

doesn't mean they should be that helpless up close either

#

its still 70% of the army's metal value

fluid seal
#

Tick can kill 20k metal of arty God bless

grizzled acorn
#

a pawn costs a fraction as much as a Quaker or a Sharpshooter but can kill it if you get it in range, which is of course the hard part

fringe yacht
#

and on principle, I don't think light raiding units should be running towards 70% of the enemies army metal value...sounds like you're conception of what a "light raider unit" is, is really strange

grizzled acorn
#

maybe we should return to definitions here; in my view a raider unit is defined as a unit that is cheap, almost entirely built around its weapon and its mobility, with short range and low survivability. This is the opposite of an assault unit which has high HP and may be slow moving

fringe yacht
#

If unit X is designed to run towards the enemies main army, worth 70% of their total army value. That sounds like a disposable frontline unit, not a raider to me

grizzled acorn
#

raider units do a number of different tasks including mex hunting, scouting, maybe attacking lightly defended positions and exposed units

fringe yacht
#

Yeah, I can generally agree with that definition

grizzled acorn
#

the difference is critical with respect to units like the Sharpshooter- wihch is very effective against assault units and not effective against a group of raiders

#

naturally players combine units together so it is not necessarily true you can just make raiders and attack into his shooters, since other units may kill your squishy raiders before they can reach the target

real siren
# fluid seal Okay dude explain effective hp

So for the same cost, more health. Right?

If you could apply all of that damage equally across all pawns, they would be more effective.

But that is an impossible situation to hope for.

Because the pawns are 4 different individual units, they have more HP in total but each unit still has the same individual weakness. So, two shots from a hounds gauss cannon still kills 1 pawn. It takes 5 shots from a gauss cannon to kill 1 sprinter.

In the time it takes for the hound to kill 2 pawns, your sprinter is still alive dealing damage, and it deals damage at the same rate it did at it's full health. Losing two pawns already cuts your damage in half, and if you are relying on the damage to stay alive, this snowballs against you since less pawns = less damage, and less damage = killing enemies slower.

fringe yacht
grizzled acorn
#

ok so what is a "good" raider unit then

#

speed, and DPS, are the ones that matter most, however it can't be a tick in terms of HP, but very squishy nonetheless

#

a pawn is actually quite tough for its cost

#

and has very high DPS for cost

fluid seal
#

Pawns have way more damage to begin with

#

You need to lose 3 of them to have less

fringe yacht
# grizzled acorn yes because they are borderline defenseless

as a side note to this. I just want to say that the ball of sharpshooters is not borderline defenseless. Do you know what is though? Literally any other place on the map except where that ball of sharpshooters are. You should be using your Sprinters to go literally anywhere else where the sharpshooters are not and you'll have much more success with your sprinters.

grizzled acorn
#

yeah for sure

#

exacto

fluid seal
#

I have no idea how you got 5 shots VS sprinter but 1 shot VS pawn

grizzled acorn
#

190 metal a pop

#

those shooters are making bank when they shoot at you

real siren
#

5 shots for sprinter, 2 for a pawn. If I mistyped, I apologize.

fringe yacht
grizzled acorn
#

sprinters are definitely fast

#

but 120 DPS is only marginally better than one Pawn or one Blitz

#

which both have 100 DPS

#

for 4x the price

#

that price is the killer

fluid seal
#

Pawns are 90 rn

real siren
#

pawns have 90 ps.

grizzled acorn
#

ok blitz is 100 pawn 90

#

yeah

fringe yacht
#

I dont really care about the sprinters dps compared to a pawn or even 4 pawns, because sprinters are not supposed to be better pawns.

fluid seal
#

You need dps to kill eco

grizzled acorn
#

the sprinter should be even squishier for cost than pawns but higher DPS

fluid seal
#

Not all eco made out of paper

grizzled acorn
#

more specialized raider

#

at the moment there is almost no situation where sprinters are actually better than just multiple pawns or blitzes

fringe yacht
#

why? Are you having trouble killing mexs with your sprinters?

grizzled acorn
#

no a sprinter will kill an undefended mex but at 4x the price

fluid seal
#

Longer it takes to kill eco the more time enemies have to react

#

You don't raid mexes

#

You raid bases with solar and fusing and stuff

grizzled acorn
#

if you want to minimally probe or scout the 190 metal high risk mission is not great when you could send a tick which is faster and has 600 vision for just 17 metal, which will die

fringe yacht
#

who cares if its 4x the price. Your paying for it's ability to get there in the first place

fluid seal
#

Wdym easier

grizzled acorn
#

I mean yes they are faster but they're not really... that much faster...

#

111 vs 100

fluid seal
#

If you only care about faster get air really

#

Very good VS lonely mexes

fringe yacht
#

well yeah, that sounds right to me. undefended mex? Yeah 100% get a t1 gunship and tear through em

grizzled acorn
#

ya that would work too

fringe yacht
#

id be impressed if you noticed the enemy lacks aa and you obliterate all their mexes with 1 t1 gunship. good observation skills and excellent reaction

grizzled acorn
#

you dont have to get them all for raiding to be worthwhile- a pawn kills one mex and you're positive

#

the better defended the target the bigger your raid group needs to be the less realistic it is that it will be positive

fringe yacht
fluid seal
grizzled acorn
#

or... marauders?

#

pawns and marauders are significantly more efficient than sprinters in virtually all cases, as are cortex raiders like pyros and instigators

fringe yacht
#

maybe? Ive noticed marauders die pretty quick. They're definitely a squishy t3, but being t3 they have the health pool to make things work when only t1 defenses are out

grizzled acorn
#

they are a T3 raider

#

they do die quick

#

all gun and engine

real siren
# fluid seal You need to lose 3 of them to have less

Also - yes okay that is a good point. So the HP alone does not make them better, but now throw in these other factors.

against single target damage, like you're running passed a laser tower, the sprinter and pawn will come out roughly the same, though the sprinter will make it through faster.

but while all AoE is not insanely large, if you're trying to get your pawns passed a tight or defended area, even if they are not grouped together - a lot of AoE still hits the pawn a bit from the "area" part of the damage. Doesn't hit directly, but if it misses while shooting at even just 1 pawn, it can still deal damage to that pawn.

Sprinters, because they are faster, are already less likely to be hit by the "area" part of the damage even if they are just running straight forward. They get out of the center of the aoe faster so damage fall off is better for sprinters.

Then, each individual sprinter also has higher dps - not compared to 4, no - but it has higher dps 20% more dps than one pawn.

All of these things together, make it a good unit. You can add their ability to naturally dodge more damage to their effective HP, and beecause they take longer to kill individually, they will retain more DPS over a longer period of time.

fringe yacht
#

pawn would only get like 3 before it got intercepted and killed

grizzled acorn
#

yeah sure you're right they are speedy and they kill mexes effectively, especially undefended ones, but I contend you could do the same thing with a blitz tank for half the price

fringe yacht
#

of course, that depends on the enemy and if they have reinforcing units they can use to intercept

#

you probably could, blitzs are pretty good

grizzled acorn
#

the fact that it is literally comparing un-favorably with a T1 unit should be cause for concern

fringe yacht
#

you could probably do it with 2 ticks tbh

fluid seal
#

Okay scenarios in which sprinter have any edge over pawns gets more and more complicated

#

Individual dps doesn't matter really

grizzled acorn
#

both the blitz and the sprinter have the same health, sprinter is 12% faster, and has 33% more DPS, for double the price

#

after your T2 lab too

fluid seal
#

Running out of aoe faster are false actually coz units predict where target will be

fringe yacht
#

I wouldn't say it compares unfavorably. You'd need to have 1 bull to kill a chain of 5 undefended mexs, and a bull costs 900 metal. Obviously, that doesn't mean a bull compares unfavorably to pawns, because it brings other things to the table. Nobodys gonna say bulls are bad units because they're so expensive to use when raiding undefended mexs. Why should sprinters be called bad?

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

its counterpart the Fiend has 50% more HP than the Sprinter and straight up double the single target DPS (240) on its AOE flamethrower, costing just 10 metal more

fluid seal
#

Proj will land in roughly same area around target no matter speed if you move in straight line

fluid seal
#

Fat boys really like to shot almost under them self while trying to hit ticks 300 units away

grizzled acorn
#

I don't think you need a whole bull to kill 5 undefended mexes- it will do the job but you can do it with less

fluid seal
#

It will matter when chasing units only

real siren
fluid seal
#

Units miss for shitload of reasons

grizzled acorn
#

jaguar is the Armada T2 veh raider

fluid seal
#

What

fringe yacht
real siren
fluid seal
#

No it's not how it works

grizzled acorn
#

I was just confused why you leapt to the bull which is an assault unit and more costly than typical raiders

real siren
# fluid seal It will matter when chasing units only

It can matter even if the unit is not being chased but it matters most then - with 20% more speed, they are going to miss way more often when running through a line of plasma, and if they do get hit they take the shots better than their armada counter parts.

grizzled acorn
#

jaguar is a nice raider in BAR

fringe yacht
#

because you leapt to sprinters which are the fastest land raider units in the game that are more costly than pawns

fluid seal
#

It aim where your unit will be it calculates perfect interception point (+/- hardoced miss chance prediction error etc) so no matter how fast you go proj will land same distance to unit

fringe yacht
#

You pay for other things sprinters bring to the table, not just for its ability to kill 5 undefended mexs. Youre paying for it's speed

grizzled acorn
#

yes they are the "fastest land raider" but the speed difference is not really that great? two blitzes are almost as fast, have double the HP and almost double the DPS at T1?

fringe yacht
#

almost is not good enough where speed is concerned. It's either you catch them or you don't and you take free unavoidable damage

fluid seal
real siren
grizzled acorn
#

if you have a range advantage then yes you could exploit a superior movespeed to do "free" damage but raiders have to get close which can be a deadly proposition against many types of other units

fluid seal
grizzled acorn
#

as for hitting an undefended target, a great variety of units can do that job

real siren
fringe yacht
#

? Why did you shift to talking about a defended target? You're not raiding anymore, thats an assault

grizzled acorn
#

eh a mex with an LLT is very raidable

fluid seal
#

How you can run from aoe I'd it will land where you WILL be

fringe yacht
#

oh, yeah thats fine. Id say thats lightly defended and an appropriate target for sprinters

grizzled acorn
#

yeah absolutely

#

light defenses you just bring a slightly larger raid

fluid seal
#

Okay I will draw you example in paint once power are back

real siren
#

Like if you are only saying it compensates for how fast the unit is perfectly, then that would make sense.

#

And that is fine.

fluid seal
#

Wdym same spot?

real siren
#

I don't think it does, but that is fine.

grizzled acorn
#

serious army or serious defenses you stay away with your raiders as they will die badly

real siren
fluid seal
grizzled acorn
#

however if you do manage to get into the eco your raiders should eviscerate it

#

very difficult to actually accomplish

fluid seal
#

I might have explained it poorly pepeFeelsBadMan

fringe yacht
#

what kind of eco? Like an AFUS in the back of someones base?

grizzled acorn
#

metal converters, nanos, fusions, afus, any kind

fluid seal
#

You can hcech units stats on github there smth smth interception prediction fron 0 to 1 which dictates how good unit at leading shots

fringe yacht
#

doesn't it take like, 2 seconds for a few sprinters to kill an advanced converter?

fluid seal
#

Fusion actually quite fat

fringe yacht
#

and like, 2 seconds to kill a nano?

fluid seal
#

4.3k hp

fringe yacht
#

I don't see sprnters much, so Idk how fast they kill those structures

grizzled acorn
#

nanos and converters are squishy and chain, fusions are the real difference especially if they are being repaired

fluid seal
#

4s for adv converter

grizzled acorn
#

sprinters have quite poor DPS for cost

#

a problem marauders and pawns do not share

fringe yacht
#

if its being repaired, i wouldn't say it's undefended. repairs are a form of defense

fluid seal
#

Nanos will depend if there enough of them they will just out repair

fringe yacht
#

yes, they will out repair. and thats fine. Thats a valid form of defense and a valid counter to a few small things annoying you in your base

#

hell, they could probably reclaim

grizzled acorn
#

in practice the fusions will have nanos, quite possibly many nanos nearby, and the raiders should deal with that very easily if you do manage to attack the fusions that should be it

#

pawns already work this way as do marauders

fringe yacht
#

how many sprinters do you have in mind that got into the enemy base?

#

its hard for me to visualize/evaluate if sprinters are good or not without a number. If its like, 3 sprinters Id just reclaim them. I have like 16 nanos, 3 sprinters should not be enough to screw me over

#

if its like, 10-15 then im probably fucked

grizzled acorn
#

think of it this way, 3 sprinters could be 12 pawns which will kill a fusion, while 3 sprinters could struggle to do the same

#

1200 DPS versus 360 DPS

#

4500 HP fusion

#

4 seconds, 12.5 seconds

cunning crescent
#

Guys this is really simple. Just let them have a secondary movement that boosts high run speed in exchange for energy like how cloaking works. Like an overdrive

grizzled acorn
#

that is actually a kind of fun concept

fluid seal
#

Lmao

grizzled acorn
#

you would obviously just leave it on all the time though

fluid seal
#

That funny

#

Speed boost + rof boost for energy

fluid seal
grizzled acorn
#

that is actually an intriguing idea

cunning crescent
#

I can’t believe I actually considered that. I was gonna say they should get flight but they’re literally called the Sprinter.

fluid seal
#

That just planes you dumb dumb

real siren
# fluid seal Yes it is, not all perfectly some just straight don't

Okay against a single thug, running head on it nailed all 4 shots killing pawn immediately.

Just them running back and forth in front of it, Like not make sudden turns but walking in a straight line for multiple reloads of the thugs weapon, it took 3 shots before it even hit 1 pawn. And then another like 6 or 7 to actually kill one.

cunning crescent
fluid seal
#

Thugs might not have prediction

fringe yacht
#

so? sprinters are not pawns. Its not surprising that T1 units have higher combined DPS. The game is balanced around that so that T1 units can be relevant even in late game.

Pawn dps: 90
Pawn metal: 48
Hound dps: 143
Hound metal: 300

For 12 pawns, you'd get 2 hounds. 2 hounds will never kill an AFUS either, that doesn't mean hounds need a buff though. Likewise, sprinters don't need a buff just because 12 pawns kill an AFUS faster

fluid seal
#

All long range will have

grizzled acorn
#

yeah the range is huge for the hound, as is the HP

fluid seal
#

Hounds have 600 range they have very very different role

fringe yacht
#

yeah, and the speed is huge for sprinters as well as mobility and fast turning speed

#

whats your point?

grizzled acorn
#

in general longer range DPS is much much more expensive

fluid seal
#

Can you not compare completely different units?

fringe yacht
#

yes, sprinters have a different role too

fluid seal
#

Not that different

fringe yacht
#

you keep comparing pawns and sprinters pretending they're the same unit arch type. They're not

grizzled acorn
#

like the LRPCs are massively expensive for very low DPS at very long range

#

mid range plasma cannons same idea

#

sheldons

fringe yacht
#

like I said, you want sprinters to be better pawns, becaus eyou think they are not that different. But they are supposed to be different

fluid seal
#

Lrpc bad static 120 dps for 4k metal

grizzled acorn
#

at short range you should get a lot of DPS for your metal

fluid seal
#

No I want sprinters be able to kill eco

grizzled acorn
#

look at the Pyro

fringe yacht
#

and they can

#

just not AFUS because thats beyond what a light raider unit should be able to do

#

killing a 9K metal structure should be pretty difficult for light raider units

grizzled acorn
#

that would depend on how it is defended right

fringe yacht
#

unless is completely undefended

#

yeah

fluid seal
#

So they only to raid wind farms got it

fringe yacht
#

no, they raid wind farms, mexs, T2 mexs, converters

#

even nanos

grizzled acorn
#

anything that is exposed

fluid seal
#

T2 mexes also fat

fringe yacht
#

you can seriously screw up an enemy base with them

grizzled acorn
#

and it is more or less impossible to harden everywhere

fringe yacht
#

exactly

grizzled acorn
#

so every player has things that are exposed

#

the AFUS could be killed by a couple pawns but in practice no one is that dumb

#

they will protect that

fringe yacht
#

yes

#

thats why pawns go to the main base, sprinters go everywhere else

#

pawns can assault beacuse their cheap, disposable with high dps

#

sprinters should say on the outside edges of the map and enemy base to attack lightly defended areas

grizzled acorn
#

pawns are definitely reasonable as assault units due to their low cost and actually surprisingly good HP for their cost

fringe yacht
#

later on, when everything else is dead, you can swing them into the back of the enemy base and try to kill nanos, then sit on the AFUS and force them to pull units to the back of their base

grizzled acorn
#

and the fact that overkill high alpha is bad vs them

fringe yacht
#

when the army is out of position, you push into their base and assault like normal

#

with your non-sprinter army

grizzled acorn
#

I definitely agree the sprinter should be a high finesse unit you intend to preserve in contrast with the disposable pawn or tick

#

avoid casualties with it rather than sacrifice in assault

#

however it needs a reason for you to build it over just... more pawns?

#

or if you were going to make a large number, marauders instead?

real siren
# fluid seal Thugs might not have prediction

They do it's just the round is slower, and smaller.

Hounds on gauss vs pawns moving back and forth hit on 1st and 3rd try, and generally would only miss a couple shots between hits.

It would miss like, 5 or 6 times with particularly bad luck against the sprinter just walking back and forth.

grizzled acorn
#

imo making it have very high DPS at short range while retaining its very poor HP for cost means it really isn't a replacement for the pawn in terms of assault

#

also longer vision range is a quality improvement that makes them superior scouts hopefully less suicidally than ticks

#

a tick is actually faster than a sprinter yet has 600 vision range for just 17 metal, which is hard to compete with in terms of a scout

fringe yacht
real siren
#

Oh man pawns walking back and forth against plasma cannon fucking sad.

grizzled acorn
#

it is unlikely 20 sprinters would clear out the entire map but they would kill a lot of mexes and pressure defenses to be made

#

which is wasteful

real siren
#

Just like ayyo sick, now we just walk up for free.

fluid seal
#

Skill issue

fringe yacht
#

you got your advantage now, swap into something else to finish the enemy off, or you can try to continue to stretch him thinner with more raids

grizzled acorn
#

that is what is supposed to happen but it just isn't as good at doing that as pawns or ticks or fiends or really any other raider in the game

fringe yacht
#

eventually moving up to tank raids, cos the defenses will become too much for sprinters to raid

#

i think its hard to judge how good it is relative to other units. Sprinter's main advantage is speed, and speed is a stat that heavily depends on player skill

real siren
# fluid seal Skill issue

Okay so the pawns walking back and forth against plasma cannon still did pretty good, but they still took more aoe damage and more direct hits. The fucking plasma cannon on the hound has worse overall accuracy than the thugs/maces. Damn.

Vs the sprinter, the only times it dealt damage besides one aoe shot, was when it got hit directly. And that was very infrequent.

grizzled acorn
#

minimal probe for weakness? 190 metal is an issue for a unit very likely to be killed

#

send tick for 17

stray ocean
real siren
grizzled acorn
#

small raid to kill mex, maybe LLT? Send pawns

real siren
#

I turned it off and I somehow still got notifications.

stray ocean
#

right click, "mute -> until i turn it off", right click -> notification settings -> nothing, unfollow - also seems to work from the thread list on the left sidebar - if you'd like to try again 😄

grizzled acorn
#

large raid? the superior HP and DPS of pawns now starts to tell not just their low cost allowing just a couple pawns to be disposable

#

or blitzes too

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

tanks are also often used for this as their speed is decent too

#

despite their assault-y profile

real siren
#

If the vibes become less chill again I will probably do that.

fluid seal
#

discord are very awful with pings and stuff

#

it might not work for thread or smth lmao

grizzled acorn
#

MASSIVE raid? go for marauders and try to deal fatal damage

real siren
#

not that, I was not part of the problem for the bad vibes, but I got frustrated emoplease

fluid seal
#

200 sprinters raid lets go

grizzled acorn
#

I mean yeah that would probably kill someone but for that price...

stray ocean
#

yeaaaaah I just checked, it gets me right back in here on a reply. rip 😦

grizzled acorn
#

38000 metal is like lolcannon territory

real siren
fluid seal
#

actually prediction can be between 1 and 0 and i'm not sure how exactly it works if its like 0.5 for example

grizzled acorn
#

lol 200 sprinters have less HP than a Juggernaut

#

for 50% more metal

fluid seal
#

yes but its 38000 metal of units moving at 111 speed

#

tho at that point make bombers

grizzled acorn
#

yeah I'm not saying it wouldnt kill someone just there are better ways to kill someone

#

bombers are a good one

#

40 Marauders

#

which have 196000 HP together

#

33% more than a juggernaut lol

fluid seal
#

if we talking that sprinters are to raid stuff on edge of the map and not bases what if make them even faster but with even less HP :]

grizzled acorn
#

792 pawns collectively having 265000 HP or nearly double a juggernaut

fluid seal
#

just make script to find most HP efficient unit

#

(it will be a wall)

grizzled acorn
#

yeah it will lol

#

the point is that these are squishy units but their HP efficiency is actually good

fluid seal
#

yeah

#

i think its kinda the issue with bar's t1

#

they incredibly cost effective

grizzled acorn
#

I think that is a good design choice to have T1 generalist units that remain usable all game

fluid seal
#

people just use pawns and grunts late game tho

grizzled acorn
#

I dunno about "just" - it seems to me like there is a core of valuable important units and spam of things like pawns and grunts are used to flak for them

#

high alpha units are very potent and antiswarm units are not good, so it makes a lot of sense to throw many, MANY bodies at the enemy

#

with respect to the sprinter that means it occupies this weird position of being a somewhat costly version of the flak rather than the power unit like a Sharpshooter or what have you

#

countered by similar units to them too

#

a combination of cheap spam en masse with a small number of heavy hitters works great

#

sheldons and hounds are an alternative way to go too, particularly midgame

real siren
# fluid seal actually prediction can be between 1 and 0 and i'm not sure how exactly it works...

Oh that is odd?

Well here is something to note - if you are microing the units, them being faster does make a big difference, especially the closer you get to the defender. It's like pretty impossible to micro even one pawn in time at point blank to move out of the shots firing arc. Ticks can, kind of do this? But they also get one shot and a light breeze kills them.

Against two point blank hounds you can dodge shots most of the time but if you make a mistake or take a lil aoe, it's not the end of the world.

Pawns are too slow.

Ticks require like, more than perfect micro in this situation and I think even higher skill zerg players than me would find that challenging.

#

I didn't try with more than 2, getting so fuckn tired. But I did try with like 12 ticks and 4 pawns. The closer the ticks get, the easier it is for one of them to catch a unlucky shot or even the edge of an aoe. 4 pawns do okay before the inner 50% range but at that point I think prediction gets better and you have less time to dodge the projectile.

Also - the weapon has swivel time. So the closer you get, the less time it takes for it to aim.

Lots of shit going on under the hood here. I really think the devs were not joking when they said this shit is way more complicated than we are giving it credit for, even myself when I start thinking about shit like how fast the weapons turn rate is peepoCantSleep

#

WAIT - that swivel point is actually the inverse, adjustments at range can vary pretty drastically compared to adjustments at cqc range. Adjusting 10 degrees in cqc might not be much, but because firing arc here works like a line, or a cone, the further out you go, the more space is covered by those 10 degrees from your point of origin, compared to the max radius of the circle.

#

It is true about the projectile speed though.

#

Omfg god

#

at point plank sprinters can run in a circle around hounds and it is faster than their swivel range, there might be enough rotations that it finally does catch up but it's too many to keep it alive.

Pawns can do this a bit, but without perfect micro it's only a handful of rotations before it gets shot.

grizzled acorn
#

in practice there will be multiple hounds and one of the others will shoot you

#

surrounding is still a good idea for flank damage

#

but circle strafing a hound to swivel its gun is not a realistic thing to do

#

it can pick a different target

#

if you are ever 1 bot vs 1 hound... maybe?

real siren
#

Yeah I just think it's hilarious, generally not practical. However in small unit engagements you could use that to your advantage to get hounds to hit eachother at point blank

Also... Ticks are too fast. They can lap the swivel easily if not handled with ridiculous care, so they end up running back into firing arc.

grizzled acorn
#

just go for surround and do max damage

real siren
#

going against hounds 2v1 is theoretically doable for me, I think I am too tired to try and figure out the rhythm and pathing to do 3v1. You can dodge gauss to get in point blank and then constantly run around 1 dealing damage while dodging the others shots, sometimes causing friendly fire.

You could probably just figure 8 around them as well.

#

This is like, really fine details at this point but it's very interesting for me to discover something like that.

That is part of the play for cortex frigates vs armada dolphin. Swivel rate on cor can be abused in a straight up fight, dolphins can dance around it. Frigates like hounds must move back to avoid shenanigans. Even worse for frigates though since their turning speed on water is fucking awful.

grizzled acorn
#

core T1 naval is just flat out underpowered but thats a well known issue

#

one sprinter vs 2 hounds doesnt seem like a good idea

real siren
#

There was a thread where we were talking about it and really like with other aspects of the game, core vs armada is inba at lower skill levels. If I start cor vs arm and they go mass dolphin, I just play more conservatively as committing to a large battle early will probably play to their advantage.

#

This issue was specifically on 8 horses, Dechu vs disnof.

Disnof eventually lost the game due to dechus team mates - but would have crushed dechu alone since Dechu mostly went in against the dolphins instead of trying to draw them into torps or subs, harassing with destroyers, subs, or herrings, etc.

If you just, keep making frigates until t2 you do eventually win because frigates are less obsolete than dolphins at that point, but I think part of surviving until then is making the armada player scared to try and push into your defenses, even if they could, and never taking direct engagements.

#

Anyway, goodnight. I am tired as fuck. It's 9 AM. I think I've been arguing with you guys since like, 2 am? jfc.

if this is still going on tomorrow or over the next couple of days, please be more willing to politely consider some of my points and reasonably engage with them, and I will do the same for yours. Later!

cunning crescent
#

Ah, time to check in on the thread let’s see here… yeah the Sprinter needs a buff in speed

grizzled acorn
#

I was thinking about your idea of having a "boost" ability that drains energy over time, that is actually workable and would be a pretty good idea to lower the cost and give it a somewhat heavy energy consuming ability

frozen kernel
#

they dont want abiltiies in this game

#

against design philosphy sorry

grizzled acorn
#

they don't want active abilities

#

cloak is an ability you toggle as is gauss cannon

frozen kernel
#

how would it activate

grizzled acorn
#

speed boost just using energy and being on by default

frozen kernel
#

yeah theres people that dont want the hound to be able to change modes

grizzled acorn
#

no energy and your sprinters are no longer as good

frozen kernel
#

sounds good to me but good luck getting a gameplay design team memeber to agree to that

grizzled acorn
#

legios' idea I just thought it was interesting

#

more original approach than just making it cheaper, faster, and/or higher DPS

cunning crescent
#

Yeah I’ve been thinking about that too a bit actually. Definitely seems to hold potential

#

Just wondering now how much for the sweet spot and how much energy should be used for the time it’s active

grizzled acorn
#

it should be enough to matter but not so much you cant make many of them with fusion eco

#

20 or 50 or at most 100 e each

cunning crescent
#

Too fast and you can use a small cluster to blitzkrieg into an enemy base past defenses

#

Maybe 200 each, the idea is already feeling kinda strong

#

🤔

grizzled acorn
#

would increase their movement speed and ROF, and I had an additional idea of also giving it passive HP regeneration, which makes a lot more sense for a raider than for a unit like the gunslinger

cunning crescent
#

Good points there

grizzled acorn
#

200 e each would mean a fusion will power just 5 which is too few

#

50 e each would mean a whole fusion powering sprinters gives you a raid group of about 20

cunning crescent
#

Fair enough. I just take energy over time from storage into consideration

#

I’m the kind of player to store lots of energy

grizzled acorn
#

all the storage does is make it take longer to run out when you are over capacity you still have to actually make the energy

#

although this could in theory be a valid use case for storage for real, as sprinters could be toggled off their energy consuming mode and then turn it on before the assault

#

you could be intentionally way over on the number of sprinters knowing you won't necessarily need them draining like that for very long

#

the idea would be that you are trying to get past with as much speed as possible and some of them are going to die in the attempt

#

also

#

and perhaps more importantly

#

this would shift much of the cost of using sprinters away from their initial purchase price

cunning crescent
#

Maybe. I’ll think on it for later

deft stream
hollow elbow
#

yes add more speed to units in armada, dont forget to add anti air so nothing in cortex roster can stop them, even shurikens > . >

cunning crescent
hollow elbow
#

u might think im memeing but this is valid concern. cortex struggle with fast units.

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

shurikens can still do their job while being shot at just like most combat units

#

especially for intercepting a raider

#

jaguar AA is much better and shurikens are still reasonable to stop them

#

a big enough group of jags will not be stoppable with shurikens but at that point you are not just raiding mexes any more

#

sprinter is barely AA at all, is far easier to stun, and squishier

#

shuriken speed 281 and you are probably starting from ahead of the sprinters anyway so they are running towards you

#

I dont think its accurate that either faction "struggles against fast units" because that really depends more on your deployment than on the units you have

#

concentrating all your resources at the very front with slow, heavy units like a Thug ball is a choice you made that leaves you vulnerable to being raided if they run past you

cunning crescent
halcyon marsh
#

I'm still in the opinion that it just needs a metal cost reduction. Would be enough to make it more viable for all the reasons I presented above.

#

Optional small vision range buff to slightly enhance it's raiding specialisation without impacting the rest of the game.

#

The sprinters speed has never been it's issue, and speed is always a complex and highly influential stat to mess with.

#

Cut it's metal cost by somewhere around 35%, and I'm confident we'd see it getting used more. Maybe 25% for a more conservative figure, to not jump too far right away.

#

Energy cost could remain the same to discourage spamming them in early T2 phase.

grizzled acorn
#

I definitely agree cost is the principal issue and simply reducing cost by 35% would do it

#

increasing its vision is also a good idea because the Flea is 17 metal and is both faster than it and has 600 vision vs 350

#

hopefully the sprinter could serve as a more advanced recon unit that is less suicidal

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

you could easily run pawns or another raider behind enemy lines and not even be aware they had the shurikens in reserve until they reacted to your breakthrough- raiders are likely to get killed by things they have no chance against, whether that is a deathlazer or a Sumo or a gunship or an HLT or who the heck knows

#

its still worthwhile to send the raiders

#

even if they may die

#

as the saying goes "the only good recce is a dead one"

#

also, Dolphin being incredibly OP has more to do with its absurd DPS and HP for cost compared to every core T1 ship than its speed although obviously that helps too- the fact that it straight up kills things more expensive than itself matters more than the ability to wiggle around and "raid" the base without engaging

real siren
#

That wasn't the point I was trying to make - yes you may not know what is beyond LoS and should still try to raid / test defenses, but preferably you'd scout ahead or have an idea of where those counters are to maximize effectiveness.

This is also like, a painfully specific match up, but the shurikens being good at their job does not make the sprinter bad lol.

real siren
grizzled acorn
#

yeah and ticks are ideal scouts because they are likely to die doing it, have excellent speed and vision, and cost just 17 metal

#

sprinter is literally a worse scout despite costing 11x more

#

pi*r^2 times 600 is a whole lot more visible area than r=350, and the flea is significantly faster too

real siren
#

Sprinter isn't a scout.

#

I said it would be preferable to scout, that doesn't necessarily mean with the sprinter.

grizzled acorn
#

give me one good reason why it shouldn't be a T2 scout unit with better vision than a tank

#

both the pawn and the marauder have 429 and 450 vision

#

bots in general have vision like that

#

the Stout has 350 as does the Sprinter

cunning crescent
grizzled acorn
#

I suppose you want to take away its gun and have it run the Olympics then

#

it's a combat unit

#

fast battle units make perfect sense to use for reconnaissance

#

except for some reason it can't see better than pawns much less fleas

#

so why would you ever use this unit for that when you could use either of those

#

it's the headline of the entire thread- without buffs this unit has no useful role whatsoever

#

and you never see it

#

outclassed by units that cost a fraction as much as it does

fluid seal
#

raider which can't see what it raids 🤔

real siren
# grizzled acorn give me one good reason why it shouldn't be a T2 scout unit with better vision t...

Other than the multiple days of people explaining how you're wrong and you just ignoring it, ignoring experienced players, devs, etc?

This isn't your game. You are not the sole arbiter of what is or isn't effective, balanced, or enjoyable. You aren't an arbiter of anything in this discord or the game. The devs have their own vision of what they are doing, know how all this shit is working together, and literally do not have time to deal with someone whose brain is wired like a carousel, just going in circles for almost 8 days now.

No matter what anyone concedes, agrees with, proves, or disproves, every time you circle back to "useless. trash. low dps. 10 quadrillion moredamage with ticks."

Not your game, and your unreasonable demeanor has gotten any decent ideas in this thread buried and ignored by the developers.

Cope. Go next. This isn't going anywhere.

grizzled acorn
#

I am not the one with the unreasonable demeanor

real siren
#

🥱

#

The broader community disagrees.

#

I'm just going to block you at this point.

You've been a headache for several days now, and even if this gets me moderated, I have to say you're an annoying fucking bastard.

Later.

grizzled acorn
#

I have absolutely no idea why he is so upset, he is the one who repeatedly insulted others

#

all of us were quite polite including asking him to please stop being insulting

halcyon marsh
#

I dunno. She seems to have been ignoring everyone's arguments spare yours, and whilst this has honestly gone on way too long, the debates not been half as one sided as FC is making out. Aside from the 95% of posts being you two going back and forth, there's been just as many people supporting a buff for the Sprinter as anyone regarding it unnecessary.

Seems fairly obvious to me that regardless of anything said here "the broader community" uses the Sprinter barely any more than they use the Tremor.

#

There's scarcely a single game that goes by where you won't see Pawns or Grunts running around in the backlines, and yet the unit dedicated and specialised to doing so, is a rare 1 in a 100 unicorn.
And whilst "skill issue" can be a valid concept for harder to use non-meta units, when it's supposedly so severe that you'd be hard pressed to even find any examples of them being used right to learn from, I think that's saying enough.

There's units that are easier for newbies to handle, and then there's units that are powerful in experienced hands. But when there's a unit that's only used by a tiny handful of players in a tiny handful of their games, maybe the unit should be balanced with more than ten people in mind.

#

This level of staunch opposition in balance discussions is usually reserved for people fearful that their favourite OP toy might get nerfed. Rather than someone nervous a unit they favour might get buffed.

grizzled acorn
#

well said, and I concur that this is a unit you virtually never see, including in the 4v4 tournament where supposedly they were used once but no one could find it

#

even if they are occasionally constructed, it is so unbelievably rare that it is essentially a non-factor

#

and raiders should not be a non-factor, raiding gameplay is hugely strategically interesting and engaging, as is defending against raids

#

a faster and more specialized raider should be a T2 unit you actually want to deploy rather than never ever touch

fluid seal
#

how so in game where 90% of eco and production can be destroyed in matter of seconds if even one extremely cheap unit gets in your backline you never see dedicated raider unit 🤔

fluid seal
#

thinking that devs 100% know how to make everything be 100% balanced and good and right are just wrong they as much players as we are, having shit load of experience doesn't make you unable to be wrong

cunning crescent
#

A good note is that when you have so many units and functions, the idea of perfect balance is practically impossible. Only being reasonable enough when it comes to the greater perspective of the people that play it

hollow elbow
#

you guys seems to be goin in circles, so its better to unfollow this tread lol.

I will just say this: you look at the balance of a single unit, not entire game. Giving more strong raiding options to armada, while cortex already struggle with them is a mistake of high magnitude.

so far you have:
early game: tick harass. Cortex counter play? - ltt, nothing can chase them down in your roster
mid game(20mins~): marauder rush. Cortex counter play? - shurikens ( you should be already at the stage where you can support multiple labs with resources, just need to learn to micro them well enough to not get rekt by AA)

Now you want to add option between the ticks and marauders, while not offering any counter play for the other faction. How do you expect cortex to deal with sprinter rush into his base at 10 min mark? ltt wont be enough, you wont have eco yet to support 2 labs. How would you counter it?

Also, dont say stuff like hur durr u build thugs you got punished by fast units, armada can just spam rockos/maces and react with fast ticks if necessary, while cortex bot lab doesn't have this luxury.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents, this will never get approved anyway, as it throws the balance more into armada favor.

Cheers

PS. I forgot to add, dealing with sprinters can be already hard, if someone with hands actually use them. Buffing them even more is KEK territory.

grizzled acorn
#

if sprinters are so difficult to stop how come no one ever builds them? Even in competitive matches at the highest level they could not find one sprinter being built in the entire tournament, and two people looked

hollow elbow
#

oh is that valid concern?

#

no one builds sprinters in 1 vs 1?

#

i dont understand how you dont understand than making them more viable is just creating large disbalance between factions

#

cortex "fast assault bot" is aleady what, 30 speed slower?

#

you can run circles around pyros already, how do you suppose deal with them when they are even better at what they do

grizzled acorn
#

if you are referring to the Fiend that is a unit people do actually build... because it has 50% more HP and double the single target DPS on its AOE flamethrower for just 10 more metal

hollow elbow
#

dude

#

fiend is the only unit

#

we can build

#

its fiends and sheldons

#

and letter sumos and mammoths

#

i dont understand how you dont see this perspective lmao

#

honestly

grizzled acorn
#

that a unit no one builds is somehow a huge buff to the faction? yeah I think that is mistaken

hollow elbow
#

dude how you are not seeing the problem in your reasoning

#

just read what i told you again

#

and ponder a bit on it, how would YOU as cortex player deal with stronger sprinters

grizzled acorn
#

the problem is not defeating the sprinters, it is positioning

#

most all of those units will kill sprinters, you just need to be in the right place

hollow elbow
#

oh so im supposed to encircle my base and stay there?

#

do u realize how big maps are?

#

jesus christ u make my head hurt, you are so fixated on the sprinter you dont see wider perspective

grizzled acorn
#

if someone builds a group of sprinters and then only kills a couple mexes that is not a net positive though- and if you have the right balance of defenses on things of value they will not be able to kill them

#

that can be mobile units or porc

hollow elbow
#

oh so now i have to porc front and my base?

#

while armada player is just chillin ?

grizzled acorn
#

if you have a large field of afuses its not that ridiculous to defend it

hollow elbow
#

if he gets raider he will just build ticks or sprinters to counter it

#

dude, we are talking about early game issues

#

not late game

#

this is between tick rush and marauder rush

grizzled acorn
#

actually defeating the sprinters is not that hard, but the sprinters can attack an undefended target and destroy it

hollow elbow
#

how do i defeat unit, that i cannot catch

#

due to its speed

grizzled acorn
#

people are assuming you are going to have all your army in one blob at the front and you do not have to do that

hollow elbow
#

how on flats for instance, while my lab is in front

#

how do i protect my energy in the back

#

at 10 min mark

grizzled acorn
#

a 10 min sprinter raid is a HUGE investment

hollow elbow
#

yeah it is, but i have no response

grizzled acorn
#

T2 and then making the sprinters instead of other things like eco

#

honestly you could make almost any unit and defend your base and probably come out ahead

hollow elbow
#

wdym

#

my lab is at front

#

this is not noob lobby, my units are not running entire map to the front

grizzled acorn
#

how many sprinters do you think are likely to be roaming the map here

hollow elbow
#

dude you want to make them stronger

grizzled acorn
#

yes

hollow elbow
#

and im asking you, how would i defend against your stronger units

#

on large map

#

as cortex player

grizzled acorn
#

if we assume there are 10 sprinters, which is pretty optimistic for T2 10 minute raid

hollow elbow
#

easly done

grizzled acorn
#

that is nearly 2000 metal spent on that

hollow elbow
#

i can do 10 sheldons at 12

grizzled acorn
#

let's assume you make T2 mexes and some porc to defend a limited area and many of your un-upgraded mexes are raided and destroyed

#

you push

hollow elbow
#

ok, so your solution for cortex is to porc his base, while armada can just respond with his units ?

grizzled acorn
#

mobile units would be better

#

but harder for many players

hollow elbow
#

which mobile unit right now is at equal speed in cortex roster with sprinter

grizzled acorn
#

sumo as walking laser tower

#

oh you don't have to catch them

hollow elbow
#

how im supposed to have summos in the back at 10 min mark

grizzled acorn
#

can as walking laser tower

#

fiend will eat them alive but they will run away

hollow elbow
#

so on frontlane map, you want me to have t2 lab and sumos to defend at 10 min mark?

#

fiends will never catch them lmao

#

they are too slow

grizzled acorn
#

you don't have to catch them just stop them from being able to accomplish anything and you are way ahead

#

if you do manage to kill some when they try something so much the better

hollow elbow
#

but how im supposed to do that

#

your solution to the problem you created is flawed

grizzled acorn
#

towers or any units will beat them as long as you put them in the right places

hollow elbow
#

you are forcing now cortex to have significant investment into his defence

#

while making his front force much weaker

grizzled acorn
#

raid defense is indeed a thing

hollow elbow
#

yes and i told u, cortex is struggling with speed

grizzled acorn
#

the armada's entire energies went into a raid force not a front army

hollow elbow
#

its ez to defend against ticks

#

not against sprinters

grizzled acorn
#

pushing with a solid army will also put pressure and make him respond

#

but you need probably more units to do that than you might have at that point

#

unless you didn't T2

hollow elbow
#

u are looking at narrow 1 vs 1 scenario

grizzled acorn
#

in which case you definitely could just push

hollow elbow
#

where often games end at t1

grizzled acorn
#

the idea for raid defense is to lose less in the defense than they spent on the raid

#

you can cut free some mexes

hollow elbow
#

ok so your solution is to porc up base as cortex

grizzled acorn
#

that is the simplest and newbie friendly solution, but not to do it too much

#

like the LLT at the start of the game vs ticks

hollow elbow
#

but if i dont invest into it, it will be overwhelmed

#

how do i defend my windfarms?

grizzled acorn
#

that depends on how much the enemy is raiding but eventually it could be overwhelmed if they keep getting more and more raiders

#

that is sort of dangerous though as it is flimsy

#

one really bad engagement

hollow elbow
#

i spread my bases , i build a lot of wind

#

how do i defend

grizzled acorn
#

how much wind and how much defense and how much enemy raiders

#

you dont want to spend too much on defense

#

if the enemy has a metric ton of raiders and its a few winds dont even bother defending it

#

you want to make it un-economical to attack

#

but not un-economical to build the defense

hollow elbow
#

how im supposed to do that?

#

he can shred entire backlane with 10 of them

grizzled acorn
#

let's assume you have an afus that if he kills it you just die rather than spread winds which get very complicated with terrain and such

hollow elbow
#

destroying build power and power is huge advantage

grizzled acorn
#

not an option to just cut it loose in this case

hollow elbow
#

there is no afus

#

its early game

#

not even fus yet

grizzled acorn
#

I was simplifying the case before getting to that more complex one- but we can do that too

#

very early in the game your raid profile you are worried about is very very light; especially just one tick

#

minimal defense only so a tick isn't just killing with impunity

#

and not everywhere either

#

an LLT everywhere would slow you down way too much

#

you have to focus your defense where it will make the biggest difference and where the risk is the greatest

#

many players just auto make LLT in base which mostly solves the tick problem there for a while

hollow elbow
#

yes

grizzled acorn
#

and roll the dice with many outlying mexes

hollow elbow
#

you have solution for ticks

grizzled acorn
#

too much cost to defend them all

#

not enough reward

hollow elbow
#

now give me solution to sprinter problem