#Commander Update

1 messages · Page 4 of 1

bleak steppe
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just like adding icons didnt

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its simply adoping a good design

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that solves some gameplay issues elegantly

molten raven
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the reason they aren't adding upgrades isn't because "they don't want to", it's because it makes the game less intuitive

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if the com always does the same thing it's easier to understand

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but then if you add 3 separate upgrades, then players will need to figure out how to know if the enemy has any combination of those 3 upgrades and what to do in each case

bleak steppe
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there is nothing unintuitive about upgrades... a gazillion rts games have them. lets not take up the chat arguing over this.

velvet sage
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i dont think comm upgrades are unintuitive

bleak steppe
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@molten ravenyes you need to show it in the model just like in supcom

velvet sage
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i dont like the concept of comm upgrades at all, but its not unintuitive

molten raven
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and double that because 2 factions

bleak steppe
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not a problem

median ibex
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Plz no upgrades. The slow falloff of the commanders utility in late-t1 to early-t2, and then the large spike in utility in t3 (with the associated high risk) is a very unique and interesting thing about BAR and makes the commander very dynamic. I'd hate to ever see that changed

velvet sage
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you could make the comm more valuable in combat in midgame by giving it another ability that requires a lot of E

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now you can dgun and cloak

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if an ability costs even more E than cloaking, its not really relevant earlygame, but potentially useful later

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without any need for an upgrade system

bleak steppe
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the main issue is its speed and hp.
i dont know what kind of weapon u can give it so it can face t2 like it can t1

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just a few shots of some t2 units can off it

wanton oak
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don't understimate the removal of the commander's special combat HP regen, it's actually very significant and stops commanders from prolonged pushes

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everyone has their idea about what the commander needs or doesn't need, with the changed I tried to step on a tightrope to keep as much of what the commander is now, but to overcome its most problematic issues

bleak steppe
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thats true but i think most of us can agree that special damages should be avoided whenever possible.
its good the llt speecial dmg was removed but now we have the dgun immunity.

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by the way, cant com in transport be reverted to normal speed now?

rigid latch
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Wait, do transports slow down when they have a commander inside?

sinful garnet
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To ~80% of their max speed, yes

rigid latch
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Huh, thanks, TIL!

sinful garnet
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Technically tied to unit mass, so every unit slows down the transport, but the worst offender, the commando, only puts it around ~95% speed.

bleak steppe
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oh well if its mass related then just keep that and remove any special extra penalty the com has

wanton oak
primal holly
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just remove Dgun

digital orchid
primal holly
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but all problems come from it

rigid latch
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Since dgun is part of the commander... Would dgun not be immune to dgun?

digital orchid
primal holly
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Since lasers is part of the commander... Would it not be immune to lasers?

faint warren
primal holly
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Dgun comes from TA right?

digital orchid
formal junco
bleak steppe
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@wanton oakyeah which is why the dgunned should be changed

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com starts with a light dgun

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then can get the real one later

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so many problems will be immidiately solved

wanton oak
formal junco
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I think the issue people bring up is that the rules are overly convoluted not that they create overly convoluted problems.

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I think the current dgun rules are a cave man solution, but sometimes that is the KISS solution. I just don't get why people view them as convoluted, I feel that feeling among the community is a bit misperceived by the devs.

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I think it's better game design to keep the dgun the dgun.... I like loco commanders.

tawny sapphire
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I certainly feel the missing dgun when I play Legion. His "dgun" is a poor substitute.

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Good in other ways, it's just...not a dgun.

wanton oak
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and you do mind them being immune to dgun in teamgames, except if it's the last commander, then it's OK for them to be immune?

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and you don't mind them being immune to dgun in ffa, except in the situation where someone rezzed another commander, then suddenly you do mind them being immune?

formal junco
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I mean if you put a gun to my head and asked me if I prefered commanders having full dgun in 1v1 or immunity I would take the full dgun. Wouldn't that just eliminate some duels in 1v1, make them much more intense? I'm not a huge fan of the laser 1v1 batttles to be honest, but yeah they can be fun as you reach the tipping point of going all in. Honestly I'd try some 1v1s in this mode before I make up my mind.
Even if I did decide full dgun in 1v1 sucked so much as to ruin the game, then I'd be okay with the rules.
I guess I am okay with the rules being different in different situation just because I'm comfortable with like the en passant in Chess.

wanton oak
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very old BA tournaments had to have special rules that said can't dgun enemy commander or autolose

bleak steppe
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what is issue

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just have initial dgun deal like 700 dmh

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dmg*

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then no issue

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no need for any special rules

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or special damages

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or convoluted weird combinations

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then you upgrade it if you want and get the full dgun a bit later

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and you get both worlds

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a good early game and a cool dgun

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itll still one shot almost all t1 units and llt

tawny sapphire
wanton oak
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RIP Triton

tawny sapphire
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Yeah, it’d be nice if he were still around. He was doing some kind of sustainable homestead thing last I saw?

wanton oak
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off the grid yeah

bleak steppe
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anarco primitivist

vital sedge
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The no special damage on llta makes it super hard to stop combombs now

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Also no way to dgun to get favorable wreck locations

wanton oak
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combomb is much less effective now though and you have your commander as a tool to stop it, instead of a liability

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so overall not as hugely risk/reward and game-over as before

vital sedge
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Also I was able to dgun lots of llts with relative impunity to solidify front position pretty easily since my opponent had v little counterplay

faint hinge
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I mean. Never was an issue if you practiced defensive com play

wanton oak
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but then your commander takes much much longer to recuperate HP

faint hinge
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Com goes behind the llts in live, not in front

vital sedge
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Because explosion radius smaller?

wanton oak
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and less damage and commander can survive it

vital sedge
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But they can get closer

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Llts can't deter them from just walking up so u have to use com to walk up which reduced radius doesn't matter

faint hinge
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Comm laser duels are however pretty funny

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Both parties have to agree to stop even

vital sedge
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One good side is fireball didn't get dgunned like he usually does cause he always walks his com into enemy com on their side and loses lane

junior pilot
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It's been hard to keep up with all the discussion so forgive me if this has been suggested already but what about making the d-gun an anti mobile unit only weapon. (anything but buildings) The projectile could even just phase through buildings which would buff the commanders ability to defend his base without killing your own buildings. I hesitate to even suggest this as I like the d-gun and it might take away from some of its majesty but it seems like it would buff llts/early static without adding special damage as well as reducing the effectiveness of back line Com drops (you would still get value if you self d/die in their base but no drop dgun factory and evacuate). In addition it maintains it's usability in ultra late game as a last ditch t3 killer. Unsure if it would be better with/without Com immunity too but I think it might be an interesting thing to try.

twilit ledge
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So when can we get a good poll going on these changes? I'd be super curious about the results. Listening to the few voices in this thread give a distorted view I think.

bleak steppe
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plz no

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democracy is not the way to make good balance changes

twilit ledge
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Of course not, but seeing where the actual playerbase is at would be telling.

cold bluff
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first move self d combomb is terrible gameplay, thx god it's going away

sturdy fjord
median ibex
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Again, I've gotta ask, what's the big deal about this rule? It's incredibly simple to explain to any new player. "dgun doesn't work on commanders in 1v1 so every game doesn't turn into a dgun race", boom, done.

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Yeah it's "gamey" but this is a fucking game, if weird rules result in more fun and more interesting gameplay, then keep the weird rules! Everything from dota, BAR, and starcraft to football, baseball and hockey has them. Sometimes that's the best choice, and that's okay.

late tinsel
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Since en passant was mentioned i want to make a joke like dgun 1v1 autolose is forced by brick to pipi

rain crater
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what

vital sedge
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150% agree with HoboJoe, like, it takes 20 seconds to learn this rule. Its amazing that you guys are working on this game we all love but I feel like you guys are inventing problems that don't exist. The strategic trade off for making coms dgun immune is really bad, also equally conflicting with WYSIWYG.

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Also big reminder that we don't even have a tutorial

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So trying to redesign gameplwy to cater to those that don't understand before we even create a system to teach new players is just sloppy design

wanton oak
faint warren
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Just get it in so we can meaningfully see the affect over a decent window. Due diligence has been done

bleak steppe
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@sturdy fjordno its not. do you know what rules are?

vital sedge
# wanton oak Go

starcraft has armor types and damage types that do different damage based on what target is hit, creates different counters for different units, a special rule that exists solely for design purposes and people are fine with it

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not hard to find a game with special rules

rigid latch
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I think Raghna was referring to the game "Go"

vital sedge
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oh I thought he was like "go find me example" sorry

rigid latch
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Yeah, same, initially

sturdy fjord
faint hinge
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We can list off random games all we like, its really not terribly relevant. Many games have special rules and are better for it. Many games dont and are better for it. Though I dont think its coincidence that nearly every single RTS you can pick off the market has special rules and modifiers attached to units.

Anyhow, you're not removing special rules in BAR with this unless Liches and nukes suddenly start one shotting my commander. (Chris Taylor himself said no on the 2nd one.) The special rules being confusing is not a failing of the game, it is a failing of the ui which has been stated needs a makeover anyway. Literally just slap them in the unit card in the bottom left. Most units would have maybe one extra line of text due to it.

hushed yarrow
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+1
Tho I'm all for snipers/starlight, liches etc just popping comms

fading swift
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the realistic design rule isn't "no special rules", it's "try to minimise the number necessary".

ripe grail
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I personally still like the dgun deflector

zinc shadow
mortal saffron
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last 1 checked, it would be 2 of them. LLT and Com

molten raven
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almost all statics have different bonuses and penalties against com, and a lot of units have bonuses and penalties to com

primal holly
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you can pull out all info of unit if you press space(on default key binds) which unit selected, it will show all weapons with damage modifiers
or you can go to git hub and check files directly

zinc shadow
primal holly
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out of 641 units (including all building and scavs raptors etc) 101 have commander damage modifiers

mortal saffron
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are you talking about damage modifiers in % ?

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i see. well i dont think those are complex at all

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use the mouse to hover over the icon and you can see how much it does.

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if damage modifers are a problem, i could argue that any stat is a problem including movement speed, edge, aoe and build cost. Imagine this one unit costs 10 while the others cost 100

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sooo complex i dont like it

primal holly
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yeah let me just remember all modifier on all units

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at some point you just have too much stats

mortal saffron
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exactly, lets make every unit cost 1 mass and have a gun that does 1 damage per second versus anything else

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and in that sense, remove all the units except that one right there

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solved the game for you, easy

hushed yarrow
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llts being counter to comms was good design imo, it's too easy to dgun your stuff nowadays

primal holly
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let add damage modifier to all units vs all units

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so you need to remember every interaction

hushed yarrow
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All of it

primal holly
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yeah

mortal saffron
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if anything thinks its too hard to remember that anti-ground turrets do little damage versus air, maybe they should play a different game, maybe something less about strategy and tactics

molten raven
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it's a lot easier to remember the speed of a grunt than it is to remember how much damage a blitz does per shot to a dragon

primal holly
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like it fine in files but in game UI it shows % mod

hushed yarrow
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Game ui is unreadable

molten raven
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some stats are broad while others are extremely specific

mortal saffron
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imagine AoE2 is a very very popular game and it has a load of damage modifiers on their units

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no way, unreasonable

molten raven
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i wouldn't say loads, and the unit variety isn't that massive

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there are like 4 lines of infantry, cavalry, and missile units

mortal saffron
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there is 40 factions with unique units

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its rock paper scissor times 4

molten raven
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"unique units" being 1 unit per faction most of the times

mortal saffron
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irrelevant

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they are unique

molten raven
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bar has more than 40 unique units per faction

mortal saffron
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could be 1 could be 10, its unique units + the general roster

primal holly
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BAR likes to have random 120% to one unit 50% to other with 0 consistency now count that BAR has insane amount of units

mortal saffron
molten raven
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imagine if the entire roster was made of unique units with different damage multipliers, would make learning those factions a lot harder

molten raven
primal holly
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some lasers to 8% to air but razorback does 75%

hushed yarrow
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It would be much more manageable if we just got simple % instead of wall of text next to each weapon you need to fish in to get your info

molten raven
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pawn and grunt are different enough that they get buffs and nerfs individually

mortal saffron
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they arent worlds apart. one does AoE the other one doesnt in essence

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saying they are worlds apart is just huge exxag

molten raven
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tiger is a raider, bull is a brawler

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they server different purposes

primal holly
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no like tigers and bulls quite different lmao

mortal saffron
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a fighter and a bomber are worlds apart

molten raven
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it's like calling the militia line and the spearman line in AoE 2 the same

primal holly
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"but they both tanks"

mortal saffron
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anyways the point is numbers arent inherently bad

primal holly
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having too much numbers are bad

mortal saffron
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in fact chess has different named pieces in different numbers that move in different ways

primal holly
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having some stats? cool
having 200 stats per unit? not cool

mortal saffron
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i like stats

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i also like excel

molten raven
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we're not arguing that stats are bad, but when you have like 3+ different multipliers on each unit targeting different units then that's a bit much

primal holly
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my condolences excel are one of the worst pieces of software in existence

mortal saffron
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you can do wonderful things with numbers in excel though

molten raven
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just saying, if half of the 600+ units had 2 different damage multipliers while the others had none, then that's 1200+ different damage values to remember

primal holly
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i say its bad coz i know how to work with it

mortal saffron
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okay so lets shift the topic a bit. When you say too many stats and especially modifiers, what are the 3-5 most glaring examples of single units that do in fact have too much wonky % in their unit sheet ?

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@molten raven

molten raven
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both variants of missile trucks and razorbacks

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we could also say laser statics for their weird numbers against air

mortal saffron
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i rarely build missile trucks, i know they are meant as AA and give very good vision

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if there a way to see the unit sheet ingame without being in game

primal holly
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download files

molten raven
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the github technically

primal holly
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i did just that

mortal saffron
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nevermind that rather boot up the game eventually LUL

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anyways yeah i have some units with some crazy wild modifers but i always thought generally speaking if you know what unit is meant as anti air or anti swarm etc you be fine

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making the modifiers more beautiful in removing them or decreasing the scope would be good but i think it would be quite the difficult task.

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that said as the game progresses in development and more stuff is added, the pain will become more over time

molten raven
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my main issue with modifiers is actually just razorbacks doing way too much damage to air

mortal saffron
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well that is as simple as tweaking a single number. i thought you wanted to simplify it in general. my bad.

molten raven
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most lazers have like a 23% modifier against air while razorbacks for some reason have 75%

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most units are simple enough, we're only arguing about removing the more unintuitive modifiers

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and modifiers against com are one of those things where you wouldn't think there was one at first until you experienced it

mortal saffron
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well in that case make a PR and i will support it. I dont see a reason why Razorbacks have a buff against Air outside of their native DPS

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im not saying it will be approved tho LOL

hushed yarrow
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They are taller :P

molten raven
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done

mortal saffron
mortal saffron
hushed yarrow
molten raven
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#1109062099348508703 message

molten raven
median ibex
# wanton oak Go

Go is way simpler than chess lol, it's probably the simplest strategy gave in the world

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It gains complexity through the size of the play space and interactions between the players, but the basic strategic building blocks are as simple as it gets

wanton oak
median ibex
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Yes

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I was referring to strategic complexity through rules

timid girder
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The thing about the special damage modifiers that are for commanders are consistant in what they do

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So you don’t need to remember all of the commander specific modifiers at all

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Would this unit one shot a commander , yes , the unit does less damage to commanders

rancid thicket
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I think Shadhunter had a good point last night about UI etc. If there are rules/mechanics that would be beneficial to implement but you don't because it's confusing and hard to convey due to UI issues. Then it makes sense to not limit oneself based on that, even if it's not ideal in the short term.

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Like if we wanted the commander to take less damage from all plasma weapons there is no good way to convey this currently. But with a UI update maybe all plasma weapons/units have a color coding shown somewhere, and that same coding is in a helpful bit of text on the commander "less damage from plasma" with the word plasma color coded.

digital orchid
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There is also the way of visual feedback, amount of sparks, shields etc

wanton oak
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absolutely, and that's exactly what the visual effect of commander's dgun immunity is for
the truth is that those special damages were put in place a long time ago for reasons that are no longer true today
if those special damages didn't exist today, nobody would argue to put them into place now
just like nobody is asking for missile trucks to do special damages against plasma cannons "because that would be better for balance" even though missile trucks are not particularly meta as of today

median ibex
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There are lots of special damage modifiers that are not really relevant anymore like missile trucks as you mentioned - but things like T1 turret damage to commander is still extremely relevant in every single game, even if you dislike it you can't argue that's it's not a critical mechanic

wanton oak
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relevant != good

velvet sage
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thats the question, is it good or bad that commanders can now kill turrets easier

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i havent seen an argument for why it's good besides the argument that special damages should be avoided

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which i agree, but its not the only angle we should consider

deft totem
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I mean it is good for pushing

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Usually t1 gameplay commander stops pushing after theh made 2-3 llts

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With this u can dgun and use ur army

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Bad side is people will consider 2-3 llts should have killed it and the llts will create a false sense of security

molten raven
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maybe we start seeing more forward cons and a few medium laser turrets (beamers and twin guards)

deft totem
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We already have cons front in most games

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Cause people like porc

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But ye it will make them more likely as well

median ibex
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Will make towers less of a priority than units

molten raven
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the reasoning is that the only real point of turrets now is to deal with units, and LLTs aren't very good at that

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MLTs are pretty good at it

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although the wall popups are probably better

median ibex
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Not really, just good to stop slow push from rocket bots

molten raven
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so those will still be the go to defensively

median ibex
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Better off with units to actually defend

molten raven
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i agree

velvet sage
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llts are great vs units

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remember how cheap they are

deft totem
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U guys realise

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U can have porc

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And units right

hushed yarrow
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llts get rolled over

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You have to remember that if you are lucky, half of them will be in range

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Most wont have angle to shoot once you close in and some will do 50% dmg from range

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llt were used mainly to stop comms from walking into you

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rn, they are just rocket bot food

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Literal metal donation vs anyone above 20 as they cant dodge

median ibex
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Yeah without the power vs commander there will be way way less reason to build them

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With how weak most T1 porc already is this might finally put it in the dumpster.

wanton oak
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llt is the best bang for buck out of any unit in the game

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so cheap too

median ibex
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Doesn't really matter when they can't move and die in a couple hits to tons of T1 units that outrange them

bleak steppe
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whats the point though, yeah llts will be used less now, most likely. they will still definitely be used.
when do the com changes go live though?

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whats the hold up

velvet sage
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its not about whether llts will be good or not

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but whether the dynamic of comm being more able to kill defenses is good

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now another comm is a more threatening deterrent to being aggressive w your own comm, since you cant just combomb them so easily

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but in scenarios where there is no opposing comm, comm can be more aggressive

vivid carbon
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new building: Upgrade center
Upgrade LLT for double dmg vs commander - 150m/1250e

bleak steppe
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from the games ive seen so far with these changes i dont see any serious issue though

rancid lantern
vivid carbon
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no starcraft is a different RTS, tho released a similar time to the original TA

median ibex
bleak steppe
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yeah, they should activate it, i dont get it.
if it doesnt work out can just revert. game is in alpha isnt it...

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we are the beta testers

velvet sage
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depends on perspective what would be a bad thing

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or a serious issue

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if everybody has to compush on maps w narrow / close lanes, is that a bad thing?

vivid carbon
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Big changes are always viewed in one of two ways:

  • This will solve the problems
  • This will ruin the game
    The truth is normally somewhere between the two, and it can be hard to accurately predict how things will actually go with some aspects improving but also unintended consequences that no one had though about popping up. I've seen it many times in other games when patches are dropped and opinions fly on what will be OP and what race will dominate, but the "meta" in the week after a patch drops and 2 months later can be very different.
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With this in mind I'm normally embracing of changes and if they dont work, don't be afraid to change back.

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Especially as the base human sentiment is to be overly fearful of change

bleak steppe
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status quo bias

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i like it cause im used to it

median ibex
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I'm in favor of this being pushed to main, so long as there's a willingness to undo parts of it that don't pan out

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An opt-in testing environment is simply not going to give the data required to determine if all of the changes work as planned

obtuse moth
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I'd support that under the condition it is clearly communicated

vivid carbon
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Also I have worries of the usefulness of such threads as these, I know the intent is good and open but I think they get bogged down very quickly and frustrations felt from both sides. I heard something on the radio the other day that made me think about this thread, someone said something to the effect of "you can't have an honest and good faith discussion if you're goal is to try to change someones point of view to align with your own" and I think most people could be considered guilty of that here.

obtuse moth
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news panel item etc

vivid carbon
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Teifion I posted something early on in this thread about this, would such a thing be doable and acceptable?
"When such a big change such as this is implemented into the main game, I think it needs to be effectively promulgated to make as much of the player base aware as possible to avoid confusion and frustration in games for the next week. Would something like the pop-up box we get on login for sending an 'error-log' be possible with the cliff notes of the changes and a "detailed explanation available on discord" kinda thing?"

faint warren
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We're planning on including it in the Season Zero announcement, as it fits the principle for seasons including staged major changes to gameplay

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Commander Update (from @wanton oak)

Together with the new season, comes a new much anticipated gameplay update.

The commander is receiving all the attention it deserves and is now better adapted to the rest of the game as ever before. The goal of this change is adjusting the extreme volatility of the commander to be more in line with the flow of the rest of the game and reducing extreme high-risk-high-reward situations while allowing more strategic long-term decisions.

No options are removed from the wide arsenal the commander possesses, only the outcomes are brought more in line with the pace of the strategic game.

Increased HP: 3350 -> 4000 Commanders will be able to survive all-in sudden attacks more easily
Refined blast mechanics: Comblast damage has been adjusted for better tactical control. Instead of destroying almost everything in the entire area with then an immediate dropoff, the commander now deals 5000 damage at its point of explosion, with a steady, predictable linear dropoff to its max range. This means full HP commanders will no longer immediately blow up if at a shooting distance to other commanders (but still will if closeby or damaged).
Commander D-Gun immunity: Commanders are now impervious to enemy D-Gun attacks. In line with the previous change, this means defending commanders are no longer a liability at risk of destroying your own units any time an enemy commander gets anywhere near.
Strategic Regeneration: Commanders are now in line with other units in that they no longer receive mid-combat HP regeneration. So while they are more difficult to burst down, any prolonged engagement or push will be made much more difficult and will force the commander to retreat.
Adjusted Wreck Metal Value: 2000 -> 1250 Since exploding commanders destroy less stuff around them, the compensation can be lowered as well, meaning a single bad engagement will less likely decide the outcome of a game. It also makes the choice between using one’s own commanders’ metal or keeping the commander more nuanced.
Streamlined numbers: Hidden numbers and mechanics whose only purpose is to counterbalance a frankenstein of a commander are nobody’s friend. With the above changes which bring the commander closer to the rest of the game, special increased damages from turrets are no longer needed.

Giving more tools to the player, favouring strategic play, and changing your commander from a ticking time-bomb to a full member of your armada is at the core of Season Zero.

vivid carbon
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any rewards for the ending season? 🙂

faint warren
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Leaderboard teamFameCT

timid girder
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Just give participation rewards they stack up over time

faint warren
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You'll be immortalised on a Season Zero leaderboard for all time

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But that's a separate thing, we're for Commander Overhaul!

obtuse moth
vital sedge
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Also can't be dgunned defensively

velvet sage
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hard to say how common comm dueling will end up

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but doing it offensively would be a lot harder if turrets still did the extra dmg

vital sedge
bleak steppe
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but what exactly is the com gonna dgun?

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on the front line?

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gotta think how it will effect player motivation though

#

peopole might stop making so mnay llts at front and start using hlt more or missile trucks

molten raven
#

the enemy army, LLTs, maybe a forward lab

bleak steppe
#

and be more careful about front line factories

#

army can move back

molten raven
#

i mean HLTs will also get dgunned

bleak steppe
#

thats not an issue

molten raven
#

HLTs don't have good DpS

bleak steppe
#

but it means com has to walk more towards them

#

we need to simply play it and see

#

hard to guess

faint warren
#

Yeah I'm very much in agreement with Hobo Joe's assessment that we won't know if this is optimal until is tested in the broadest games by all our players

mortal saffron
#

its fine, i approve this and it should be pushed

zinc shadow
#

I agree with the sentiment that generally it's not too fun to have unit abilities, like in sc2 where every unit has some active skill and it's a pain in the ass cycling through all your unit types to use all their abilities - I think that leads to less fun gameplay overall and turns battles into more of a micromanagement chore

#

but passive upgrades I've always liked in many games. was always a good feeling playing games like dota where you get items or upgrades which give you cool passive skills

#

I mean we already technically have one type of upgrade building, but its effect is kind of intangible - targeting facility

#

but I like the concept of investing in tech which upgrades your existing units in some way, where the upgrade is actually a meaningful choice and not so cheap that it basically becomes a necessity

bleak steppe
#

by the way, imo should jsut make com wreckage a round 1k instead of 1250

#

honestly targetting facility is kinda silly and should be changed. its like you say, too trivial

rancid thicket
#

@zinc shadow I think the better implementation of these is the Pinpointer. It offers a team wide benefit for making it, but avoids the 2 step of researching + making the research structure other games have. Also offers counter-play of destroying the structure.

#

Similarly you could add more structures that offer benefits/bonuses.

digital orchid
#

Sc2 for example has visual clues on units for ability upgrades on most of the units

bleak steppe
#

@raghna i think u should revert hp and seld healing.

the way it is now, kbot starts are even better

#

or leave new hp but revert self healing

#

and kbot starts really dont need a buff neither do rezzers..

#

making com more impactful while also making it need rezzers even more..

rancid lantern
timid whale
#

i feel like this should go but it will definitely need adjustments

#

it also feels a little buggy sometimes, especially the new dgun behaviour

#

I've seen dguns go through commanders at times rather than get blocked by them

hushed yarrow
#

Yeah, body blocking while I build llt then enemy dguns trough me...
OK?

sinful garnet
# timid whale I've seen dguns go through commanders at times rather than get blocked by them

This should be fixed now.
Turns out the Dgun fireball naturally is a point particle and not a sphere, so it would pass through things you would think it would hit.
We had a gadget that gave it a sphere collision volume, but the devs who made that gadget 10 years ago or so decided only Dguns that do more than X damage get that sphere, and the comupdate set the Dgun fireball to less than X unintentionally (something like 99,999 -> 98,000 damage), breaking that gadget.

timid whale
#

nice!

#

the other QOL thing that is needed IMO is that the red explosion indicator circle needs to be better designed for the new explosion and falloff

#

maybe a smaller thick radius at 100% comm death with thinner red lines at 50% 25% 10% comm hp or something

sinful garnet
#

That is also a work in progress 🙂
Current thoughts are a 100% lethal circle, and some kind of "exclamation mark" symbol over your commander's head if they are in lethal range [based on current health].
But I am sure the UI people are coming up with all sorts of ideas

opaque jackal
velvet sage
#

What questions remain, for me:

*Should (some of) the remaining special damages vs Commander be removed?
IMO, at least Starlight, Sharpshooter, Battle Submarines, they do reduced damage vs Commander without 1-shotting it. So they should be definitely removed imo.
The units that 1-shot the commander, nukes, juggernaut beam, etc, should be standardised so that they all do, say, 3500 dmg to commander, instead of being all over the place, OR just removed altogether.

*Should the t1 turrets do increased damage to Commander or not?
Nobody's arguing that t1 turrets should have the random mess of doing 0,75x-2x damage to commanders like they used to do. But it's a serious question if it's preferable to have them uniformly do extra damage to commander or not. It's not strictly necessary that they do, but it makes for more aggressive commander use - which is a divisive question if it's desirable or not.

*How easy should it be to laser another Commander and live?
In other words, how big should the death explosion be. A big explosion would encourage combombing more than we'd like, while a too small explosion would encourage constant aggressive Comm pushing to the face of another Commander, to laser them down or force them back. I can't say, not yet at least, if the current 5000 dmg is just right or too much in either direction. This also ties to the t1 turret damages, which offer some defenders advantage vs offensive Comm pushing.

*Should the Commanders buildtime be lowered?
This would make repairing and resurrecting a Commander faster. A 20-40% decrease could be nice to make it more plausible to keep a Commander active if you invest the resources to repair it. And would make it less annoying when nanos target it for repair when it comes to base.

rancid thicket
#

Instead of specific rules for various weapons what about a simple rule like "no one source of damage can do more than 50% of a commanders HP". Something that applies to all the weapons desired but is easily communicated

velvet sage
#

yeah some kind of rule that is universal

fading swift
#

it's probably been covered or seen as a given, but is it still the case in 1v1 with the commander update that commander who dies first essentially loses even if the resulting explosion would have killed both commanders in other game types?

hushed yarrow
rancid thicket
#

Just an example, 30, 80, 52%, that's for testing.

#

Point is just to simplify it to something super easy to understand

tawny sapphire
#

Make it 99%. You survived! Barely.

hushed yarrow
#

Mostly it would be dead from the scratch on paint grunts did a minute ago.

molten raven
#

The grunt that did the damage

hoary kernel
paper vigil
#

"Strategic Regeneration"...

vital sedge
faint warren
paper vigil
#

Also not a fan of "Commanders are now in line with other units". Commander is pretty special unit why need make it so usual. Plus we have gunslinger that already exception from this 1 min delay autoheal rule.

hushed yarrow
#

llts not being able to kill comms is such bs tho

#

Had 4 die to comm walking in

#

Why even make it

vital sedge
jolly nacelle
#

I like the beefier commander, feels more like a commander from supreme commander now instead of a paper toy

strong copper
#

armdecom cannot be hit by dgun

foggy vapor
#

Yeah, something is buggy with the Decoy Commanders, they're not removing the shot, but they're receiving 0 damage

#

Okay, I know why

#

It's armour classes

molten raven
#

decoy commander OP

#

they can just walk at the enemy commander and place down mines

hushed yarrow
#

We need more decomm plays

vital sedge
#

Costs too much to be effective

hushed yarrow
#

Decomm bouncing off Dguns instead of just not taking dmg

#

Yeah, wish it was cheaper

#

Its kinda meme unit

molten raven
#

hear me out, decoy commanders that get hit by a certain amount of damage can blow up like a nuke

#

but it has to be a certain amount of damage in a certain timeframe

#

effectively a counter to com sniping

#

you could also give them an invulnerability timer when the conditions are fulfilled so they don't immediately die and blow up your base

faint warren
#

Themitri... this is mad

molten raven
#

#makedecoycomsactuallydosomething

cosmic wyvern
#

should commander double explosion in 1v1 result in draw?

wanton oak
cosmic wyvern
#

can't find it

#

me and dave about 2 mins ago

#

I'll trey and find local

timid girder
timid whale
#

it just did 😛

timid girder
#

Oh that’s new to me then

timid whale
#

I didnt think it would happen either

cosmic wyvern
#

[teh]clusterAU[01] * Draw game!

timid girder
#

Does commander update change that rule

#

One of the key things with the current commander scheme was to really make sure there was a consistant winner

modern oyster
#

Only unit except the real commander that can capture

cosmic wyvern
#

and the assist drone in scavenger ai games(or modoption)

oak temple
#

IT'S A TRAP

#

dgun the decoy comm and you die but it can't hurt you unless you're fooled xD

molten raven
#

It was thinking of needing burst damage at the level of being able to kill the com in like 0.5-1 second

oak temple
#

yeah I just thought it was a funny concept when you can dgun a commander to have a decoy commander be like YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD

#

the trouble with a decoy commander being a constructable commbomb is that you can intentionally send it somewhere that it is going to get killed and explode like a nuke

molten raven
#

That's why i think there needs to be a lot of burst damage to the point where it can't really be accidental

oak temple
#

still, considering that you can in fact just build nukes that isn't a ridiculous notion

molten raven
#

You'd need to focus fire the com with a lot for the decoy com's effect to trigger

oak temple
#

although having a very specific damage threshold is likely to make it unclear when its activation will happen or not

#

should be when it just dies or not at all rather than having a very specific damage burst rate

molten raven
#

Tbf i doubt this would get implemented in any shape, was just throwing a wacky idea out there

oak temple
#

yeah naturally it is a fun idea though to have part of the com update factor in decoy commanders

#

such fun shenanigans possible that no one ever does

#

or... what if we gave the decoy commander an actual dgun?

#

you cant use it vs commanders in com update but you could still use it as a dgun against T3

hushed yarrow
#

Just make it cheaper

#

Like 400 metal.
You pay for the extra build power basically. Can lower hp & dps if too much.

#

Can give it more interesting build options too. T2 aa con turret etc

oak temple
#

oh yes decoy commander having better build options would be lovely

#

cheaper also makes it a more effective decoy

hushed yarrow
#

Tho price would probably need to stay higher then

oak temple
#

I dunno at T2 you can already build anything that might be on that list more easily

#

its not worth very much metal to be able to make con turrets with it

hushed yarrow
#

Yeah, but if you make it better worker, needs pricetag to go with it

#

Decomm is interesting, just too expensive

#

I tried using them for capping stuff, but it takes way too long.

#

Impractical

oak temple
#

imo for being a decoy it should have the same build list as the commander, but it's a small point

hushed yarrow
#

Even with multiple, anything of value takes multiple minutes

oak temple
#

yes the capping is impractical, but the luring the enemy to come after it can be valuable indeed, such as a large air strike that does not actually kill your commander just the decoy

#

however for most attack types since the decoy does not explode nor have a dgun they basically just shrug and their tanks drive on

molten raven
#

I want more interesting units like the commando

primal holly
#

comm not dying immediately to 2 llts are good thing

hushed yarrow
#

Afraid of llt ambush?

primal holly
#

don't like locking area early can be done that easily

digital orchid
#

I had a game with a teammate com dropping and dgunning with the update, and it absolutely destroyed the our enemy

#

Idk if I like that

#

it seems easier to com drop now

wanton oak
#

llt's never stopped comdrops

#

you needed 3 llts in every direction (and more than 3 if the enemy cloaked) and your whole base would still blow up

ornate aurora
digital orchid
#

Nah, but dgun did

ornate aurora
#

it was mitigation imo

digital orchid
#

hmm true

#

does that mean though that every build should have aa at the start?

ornate aurora
#

well yes I think meta should probably adjust to the fact comdrop mitigations are weaker

digital orchid
#

to prevent an comdrop

ornate aurora
#

which means more emphasis on proper counter or other mitigations (if they exist)

digital orchid
#

I have a question, how many aas does it take to kill a transport?

ornate aurora
#

2 shots from T1 AA if not incorrect

#

so you actually need a single AA in base to prevent comdrop straight in base

#

that won't stop "proper" comdrop with a scout tho, because scout will die to AA and then comdrop will happen outside of base

#

the counter to "proper" comdrop is radar / scouting and figs / front AA

#

so that there's no chance a comdrop can happen at all

digital orchid
#

Hmm I see

#

Is there a chance of com drops being nerfed in the future? You dont need to do smth the com but mb with the transporter, like, make the t1 transport not capable of transporting com

#

and letting t2 transport transport com

primal holly
ornate aurora
#

comdrops are iconic, personally I wouldn't want to remove them

#

but I'm not a balance person

sinful garnet
hushed yarrow
wanton oak
#

the fact that a defending commander can kill a comdropped commander without co-exploding and that com explosions destroy less stuf, made comdrops way less likely to pay off

hushed yarrow
#

You can have it up in few sec

wanton oak
hushed yarrow
#

Any reinforcing units will bring comm down enoug for it to die

wanton oak
#

still exploding your entire base and your entire army

hushed yarrow
#

It won't have army if solo, and you can keep adding to keep him out as you prepare response

#

No? It kills at most few wind and the llt

#

Much better then dunning your whole base

wanton oak
#

I guess maybe you have more experience than me with the game, sorry

hushed yarrow
#

I got comm dropped

#

Few times, that's enough to speak on it. It's not complicated topic. Old comm barely survived dgunning 1 llt

#

You remove some hp, it wont

wanton oak
#

old comm could dgun 3 llts

hushed yarrow
#

New comm can do 4, barely

wanton oak
#

and doesn't regen

#

and if there's a defending commander, it can't even kill 1 llt

#

before it could come in dgun com + whole base

wanton oak
median ibex
#

It is not perception, people have posted tons of replays showing how com drops are stronger. You just keep insisting that it's actually weaker despite the evidence and everyones first hand experience with com drops in this update

oak temple
#

the higher durability, harder to stop without using your commander, and less risk from leaving a smaller wreck make comdrop much more appealing. It isn't just the one base; there is a reasonable chance you will dgun the llt or two (more is unlikely) dgun the factory, and escape to either do it again or just withdraw

#

made it more effective and reduced the penalty for failure

#

now there are ways to counter it very hard that require significant adjustments to early game

#

remains to be seen what that plays like

#

on many maps it is quite likely the commander is pushing forward on foot and their base is very easy pickings for a drop

ornate aurora
#

IMO, it's impossible to determine right now if comdrops are actually stronger or weaker with so little data. It'd be easier to roll out the changes and gather data in live matches for like 2 weeks, see how the meta shakes up

#

IMO the question is more "do we want to shake up the meta or not". That's for balance persons to decide

oak temple
#

the thing with a cheesy all-in like that is if you know it is coming it is very beatable; so a patch that makes a com drop more likely also makes people much more likely to preemptively prepare for one. In the most extreme case, an air factory and fighters just to deter a com drop

#

quite possibly with an air transport of your own as well

ornate aurora
#

a line of T1 AA near front is also good enough

#

it could become meta for all frontliners to make a bunch of T1 AA behind LLTs

#

just... meta shake up

digital orchid
primal holly
#

just make com only transportable with t2 transport easy 😛

digital orchid
ornate aurora
median ibex
#

That used to be the meta in BA when com dropping was stronger and com napping was possible

#

It was a really terrible meta

proper rain
molten raven
#

i think what will happen is you'll start to see more people going air first just for a few fighters, can be used to deal with comdrops and scouting in a pinch while also allowing you to have an early transport which can be nice

oak temple
#

maybe everyone will go vehs and start missile trucks to get light AA as well as useful vs ground, since bots have nothing like that

molten raven
#

there might actually be a reason for the air player in 8v8s to just start air instead of bot>air

oak temple
#

if you want to com drop or if you want to make fighters yes

#

honestly it is likely most air first starts would just do both

digital orchid
#

I mean in a matchup where backline players are common sure, but I think the lower player mount we get, the more it just kills you to invest so much into just anti com drop

#

or gives you such a giant disadvantage

ornate aurora
oak temple
#

it is the same tech pathway to both execute the comdrop and to hard counter it with fighters

digital orchid
#

I imagine just people defending an combomb to just combomb themself

ornate aurora
#

balance discussions are always the same anyway, everybody has their opinions on what should be strong and what should not be strong... I think data is better than discussing, and we should just let data from actual wins support whether or not what is stronger or not

#

I think balance should be about intent first, and then actual adjustments should be made based on data if need be

primal holly
ornate aurora
#

all in all I am not particularly in favor on comupdate, but at the same time I think teching is too easy. So if balance team wants to go with this intent of comupdate, let's see what happens

digital orchid
ornate aurora
# primal holly never saw comdrop myself but i think not having comdrop are healthier

well as I was saying, that's just an opinion. The fact comdrops are stronger or weaker with comupdate would not change your opinion because you think comdrops are intrinsically bad. Others (like me) think they are not. In the end it's for the balance team to decide if comdrops are "healthy" or "not healthy", and from that decide on whether to keep or remove. This has no impact on comupdate itself, the fact comdrops are stronger or weaker with comupdate will be revealed by data after meta adjusts, and balance can adjust further at this point

velvet sage
#

Comdrops are very hard to compare if they're stronger than before, since it was not a well explored area of the game to start with

#

But that's not the ultimately relevant comparison anyway

#

If comdrops feel too strong/weak in comupdate, it can be evaluated and adjusted on its own terms regardless of how it compares to the current system

primal holly
ornate aurora
timid whale
#

Did the draw issue in 1v1 get looked at?

#

there's been a lot of chat since

timid girder
cold bluff
#

Did comm explosion damage to other comm increased today?

wanton oak
cold bluff
#

okay i noticed it at the first explosion, it's way way better, thx for the awesome work.

worldly aurora
#

How hard would it be to control for the fact that more people are going out of their way to comdrop and do it better because of the update? Hmm~

rancid thicket
#

Frankly I don't think its even needed to have a before and after analysis. Just after after picture is fine. Is comm dropping too good, is it fun? should it exist in the game at all etc. I don't know the answers to any of those tbh, but I think that's all that's really required for any feature to decide if its a good thing or not.

regal zinc
#

the issue rn with commdrops and whatnot, with commander update on, is that LLTs cant do anything about it, there's been a ridiculous increase of commanders straight up walking into the enemy base, dgunning everything, and walking away (i myself love abusing lobsters with this though)
the fact that you need like 4-5 LLTS in a small enough radius, where they can all shoot the comm at the same time to ward off the pesky commander, is a bit silly.
Sure you can say that, he will die and whatever, but since 1.2k metal is dropped now instead, that makes it very easy to get your value back via sacrificing the commander: its just basically two t1 labs after all!
Anyway, static defenses borderline useless against a commander that will commit to walking you down.

digital orchid
oak crescent
#

is this update going live at some point or will it stay as an option ?

bleak steppe
#

the new commander should not recieve and debuff to regen and buff to hp.
instead a buff to regen and leave hp as is.
@wanton oak

velvet sage
molten raven
#

That would allow the com to be more consistently aggressive while keeping it just as easy to snipe

#

I don't like the first change for reasons i won't get into now and the result of the second change is something that the com update is meant to make harder

bleak steppe
#

@velvet sagebecause doing it the way it is now means bot start and rezzers become even more important, both of which do not need a buff.
also imo it makes more sense to make the com an agile poker and dgunner than make it a bit bulkier.
that way the com will still be overwhlemed as easily in 1v1s if played wrong but if played smart will have more staying power on the front.
you go in lazer maybe dgun kill some units than retreat heal up and go again.

#

so if anything its healing should go up and hp does not need a change cause it promotes hard pushes into enemy base

#

also wreckage should just be a cool 1k instead of 1250.
not like 250 is gonna make a difference yet its a weird number.

cold bluff
#

the thing with rezz bot is that you build around 6 and then you reclaim the bot lab for veh lab or tech, so if you lose the rezz bots you can't make new ones, veh starter should focus more on killing the rezz bots (arty can kill them pretty ez)

#

but it all depends on how many players you play, balancing the game for 1v1 -> 8v8 must be very hard

wise bison
#

Iv read the opening post and read part of the discussion above (it is very very long so i didnt read all). I saw that in the discussion above there were changes made already to the concept. Where can i see all the current changes this mod makes?

ornate aurora
# wise bison Iv read the opening post and read part of the discussion above (it is very very ...

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for but here are links to all the code bits that are touched when comupdate is enabled at this very moment:

wise bison
#

I guess thats the code stuff. Would be good to have the current changes (current -> update) in a sticky of some sort so people can see what is different

velvet sage
#

For which the OP doesn't have numbers anyway

#

(now it's 5000 at point blank, and decreses linearly)

wise bison
#

tbh i cant figure out how to get back to the opening post, scrolling takes too long :p

#

but current info should be in a visible spot

ornate aurora
#

the top post is pinned already :p

wise bison
#

haha, thats where it is!

#

So that needs to be up to date

faint warren
#

That pinned message looks up to date

plain lily
#

I think a new strategy here, especially on lower mex maps, will be to start two commanders at the front. One of them walks straight forward to build LLTs somewhere, the other drops energy, lab, and pushes out a couple scout and then some rocket or artillery to counter opponent towers. With old comm, this strategy is not really viable because you can usually combomb or dgun a late, forward lab. With new comm, it is much more difficult to punish a lab-less commander because they can kite you through LLT damage and survive the blast.

wanton oak
#

they'll survive the blast but will be taken out of the game for a long while without the HP regen
I actually used to do that a lot on DSD and have 2 front south and it'd work decently well but would usually end up being combombed
either way co-op strats being more viable doesn't sound bad

velvet sage
#

Coordinating stuff like that between multiple ppl has always been p op

#

Whether the new builds for it are more or less interesting than the old ones, idk yet

#

Basic thing w stuff like that is to keep in mind, that whatever they are exactly doing, if you're 1v2 you're obviously at a big disadvantage no matter what

#

But have to keep an eye if it promotes a stale game of everyone having labless comms walking to the front, would not be good imo

thin zinc
#

given comm wreck is around 1200 after upgrade - does it mean resurrecting new comm is about 2x faster?

rigid latch
#

Depends on the build time, not on the metal cost. I'm not sure if its build time was changed

wanton oak
#

build time was not changed

rigid latch
#

Well, there you go 🙂

thin zinc
#

I see, well I'd prefer it was 2x faster (cause then its more like battle royale FPS fast resurrecting allies :D), but ok

deft totem
#

not m

thin zinc
#

decoy comms already have improved health in update to align with comm?

wanton oak
molten raven
#

i want decoy coms to be able to build more decoy coms

#

also com should be able to build decoy coms

tawny sapphire
#

Did this go live early? Looks like commander wrecks have 1250 metal now in a game that doesn't have commupdate turned on.

molten raven
#

it went live today

#

it's in #announcements

tawny sapphire
#

ah, ok

molten raven
#

com should self replicate into decoys

#

imagine someone doing a comdrop, you losing sight of them in your old base, and then suddenly there's 4 coms

thin zinc
#

and like 100 sec to capture fus which can be done on cloak 😄

hushed yarrow
#

20s with 5

#

4head

bleak steppe
#

why does it make sense to reduce commander healing though

#

why did this patch end up buffing rezzers and kbot start even more

hushed yarrow
#

So, watching 20+ games today

#

Just about everyone complaining about ttls com dmg nerf

formal junco
#

Question about commander regen nerf, does commander recieve any regen during non-combat or does it need to be healed to recover anything?

hushed yarrow
#

Every unit regens slowly out of combat I think

formal junco
#

geez TIL

digital orchid
#

after some time it regens

deft totem
#

y

plain lily
#

Wondering if anyone is going to put together an "old balance" mod now that comm update is live? I am sure there are some who would feel good having it available as an option.

wise bison
#

its a setting

plain lily
#

okay i didn't notice ty

velvet sage
wise bison
deft totem
#

comupdate does buff mav

#

a bit

#

zerpie knows

wise bison
#

wait what

#

that was buffed mav?

deft totem
#

cause mav can survive

wise bison
#

what change was made

deft totem
#

no no

#

cause mav can survive

#

max range of com death

#

so easier to use mavs

wise bison
#

ah ye

deft totem
#

and not get combomb

#

no buff to mav tho

plain lily
#

I'm sure you'll be surprised to learn I didn't actually read the announcement since I knew it was announcing updated comm xD

deft totem
#

alto targeting buff is required

#

lmao

wise bison
wise bison
plain lily
#

It's there still:

If desired, it can be switched back by using the command "!comupdate 0."

wise bison
#

ow

plain lily
#

you need 1 person to rush a mav by 6 mins, someone else make transport to get it to front line to kill comm

#

gg

#

then you can get your 1250 m

wise bison
#

kinda bad investment tho

#

although i guess you can make it with consul and pump out hounds anyway

velvet sage
#

just kill com. ez

plain lily
#

well with 1250 for the self-d it will slow a mav timing anyway

#

doing it via consul will slow it even more

wise bison
#

sure, but at least then you can make t2 units while not stalling your eco like a bitch

wanton oak
#

mav could already survive old comblast

deft totem
#

with this can survive closer

#

no?

wanton oak
#

indeed

deft totem
#

ye

#

so can just bait him into dgun now

#

so he dosnet run

timid whale
#

draw prevention fix didnt come with update to the main game?

late imp
#

com update sucks. but raghna wont listen so no point explaining.

wise bison
#

I'm not sure exactly what is supposed to be an improvement over the old situation, yet.

vital sedge
#

just played a game with fudd where he got comdropped and there was basically 0 counterplay

#

couldnt make llts fast enough

#

and llts wouldnt matter anyways

regal zinc
#

just like someone said, just make aa :^)

molten raven
#

Before anyone starts complaining about having to make aa at the start every game, do remember 1 thistle/nettle is worth less than 1 LLT

#

And takes 3-4 seconds to kill a t1 transport

regal zinc
#

yea, so all u need is 2 llts so enemy couldnt react to the aa

#

very ez counter

#

or i mean aas

late imp
vital sedge
#

yeah i realized

#

i made an aa bot but scag dropped too far out anyways, by the time the grunts got there he already dgun lab

#

and only 1250 wreck

late imp
#

the update might be good for front play, undecided yet. but it just makes comdrops super op. cant combomb, cant dgun it, cant llt against it. com just walks in unopposed.

#

yeah, then only 1250m to compensate your base lose lol

vital sedge
#

raghna will watch replay and say it didnt matter somehow

rigid latch
late imp
#

but build aa they will say. then they will just drop outside of aa and walk in to dgun all your shit anyway as llts are uselss. or as dolfy did a few games before. just sent like 15 shurikens to emp any aa before dropping lol

#

pretty much no counter to comdrops now gg

hushed yarrow
#

I see someone loose a base every other game to unkillable comm walking in

late imp
#

players just need to learn this is a different game to supcom and whatever else. coms are weaker and easy to combomb at front. need to learn to protect it better. its something we all had to learn.

#

we dont need to change com so significantly as this to cater to new players not wanting to learn

vital sedge
#

playing a new game is playing a new game, dont play a new game and try to change it to old game

late imp
#

im not against changes, but these are the wrong ones

hushed yarrow
#

Also saw com drops deep behind enemy line and making a base there btw

#

Because nothing can dislodge 2 comms early on

#

They just build up defenses & then start walking into closest base to dgun it

wanton oak
vital sedge
wanton oak
vital sedge
#

its not bs you live in a fantasy my guy

#

why not fork bar into your supcom plan

wanton oak
#

do you really want me to start bringing screenshots to show everyone you're unable to cope that you were caught lying?

robust schooner
#

i also rewatched kek

vital sedge
molten raven
vital sedge
wanton oak
molten raven
#

Most of the time there are complaints you're involved

robust schooner
#

i reviewed a couple replays and the nikuksis seemed the only one that's maybe kinda hard to hold, bc trans was given early and it got caught at the time + didn't push scouts

molten raven
#

And it's not just this thread, on multiple threads i see you come in, disagree with the thread, then start an argument

vital sedge
robust schooner
wanton oak
vital sedge
#

i am not misrepresenting anything, my opinions are valid

#

I also play the game actively

#

unlike you who hasnt played in like 3 weeks

#

many games with comupdate

#

i go to sleep now no point in continuing

wanton oak
#

"I'm not misrepresenting anything"
"unlike you who hasn't played in like 3 weeks"
@vital sedge

image.png image.png
vital sedge
#

1v1 is a different game homie

wanton oak
#

I guess sometimes you can admit that you are wrong

#

and stfu

rigid latch
#

It is a bit meh to present dates for 1v1 games, where combombing is irrelevant, Raghna 😦

wanton oak
#

it's a bit meh to say I haven't playedf

rigid latch
#

But it does look like you haven't played the relevant game modes, doesn't it?

vital sedge
#

he just watches replays and tells people that their opinion is wrong

hushed yarrow
rigid latch
#

1v1

#

commbombing

#

pick one

hushed yarrow
#

2v2 with 1 comm each is literally same situation

wanton oak
hushed yarrow
#

Its much harder to build AA thats stronger then a nettle

vital sedge
hushed yarrow
#

And if they see you just T2, they can pick up 2 scouts, transport and kill the T2

#

And fly away with 0 risk

vital sedge
wanton oak
hushed yarrow
#

They fly first

#

See your aa, then land outside it

#

Good luck getting anything with enough dmg over when you are low on money

vital sedge
hushed yarrow
#

It is high risk, but once it touched down, your base is dead

wanton oak
vital sedge
hushed yarrow
#

Even just Dgunning T2 is worth a lot, the rest is extra

vital sedge
hushed yarrow
#

I mean, Dgunning 4 asolars is worth already in multiplayer lol

vital sedge
#

I immediately transitioned into mobile aa and grunt and that wasn't fast enough

#

Com has too much hp

#

And no extra damage from llt means only units can stop him

primal holly
#

isn't comm still made out of glass? but just a bit less so?

rigid latch
#

I do think it would be nice to see @wanton oak play a bunch of higher level 8v8's, which is the mode where this increased commbomb threat is the most worrying. Just to dogfood (as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/dogfooding) the update a little and, if nothing else, cut this line of argumentation.

vital sedge
#

I don't even think the grunts made it to com before he dgun lab

primal holly
#

what p easy?

vital sedge
primal holly
#

wha?

vital sedge
#

If there was old com, Fudd would have made an llt at base and it would have dropped 2k wreck, mightve change situation a lot

robust schooner
#

if he had pushed anything on the hill & saw earlier then maybe

vital sedge
#

No cons?

robust schooner
#

no cons, didnt cancel tank

steel valley
#

in old mode the only change wis that you had to use cloak

#

but you still could walk easily into llt protected base

robust schooner
#

basically he did nothing, you at least made aa bot to zone

wanton oak
robust schooner
#

i usually make aa at the geo spot

wanton oak
#

sorry if I'm invalidating your arguments with facts

vital sedge
wanton oak
#

some people like comdrops and combombs
I personally don't
I would not push for this change if I thought it made comdrops stronger than before

robust schooner
#

if it was 10 bombers his base still dies, and he also gets 0 wrecks

#

1250 > 0, no?

vital sedge
#

But it wasn't bombers

primal holly
#

fuck com drops make comm 5.1k mass ez

vital sedge
#

Nice theorycraft

primal holly
#

i still didn't saw a single com drop

vital sedge
#

Bombers = investment com investment = transport

primal holly
#

you can self D and get 1.2k metal

wanton oak
#

you also lose your commander, which according to you is now super duper powerful

primal holly
#

losing com are still an investment

robust schooner
#

ya, i guess its cheaper to fly in comm for sure from bp perspective, but I fail to see how this is unstoppable, and why scag shouldn't get credit exploiting fact that elmer didnt take hill in any form

vital sedge
#

Scag does get credit it is good play

robust schooner
#

if your air screen set proper patrol

steel valley
#

I think both sides are too quick to draw conclusions and this chat is not really constructive at the moment

#

setting 5 min slowmode for now

#

if you have some feedback, flesh it out a bit more so it is less of a back and forth and more of a constructive discussion

#

provide replays, timestamps etc so we can examine it more before making an opinion

vivid carbon
#

I think Glass's most salient point which is being missed due to the aggressive and combative way he presents himself is - Compared to the old commander, the risk/reward to Scag is better than before, because the wreck he leaves behind doesn't compensate the enemy team as much as it would have at 2k.

wanton oak
# vivid carbon I think Glass's most salient point which is being missed due to the aggressive a...

which I do see as a valid concern, which was specificaly adressed and communicated by in the post here and everywhere else, that considering the comblast doing less damage over a smaller area, it also destroys less, I'd be happy to revisit the comblast damage further too, and that was something that I asked people feedback for specifically (didn't see much constructive feedback on that topic from the people complaining the most though)
this means that risk reward are both lower leading to a less volatile game overal
many people saying having the commander at home is less valid is also odd, considering the exact counter to this kind of play is to have your commander at home which can kill the enemy commander and survive now

tawny sapphire
#

The reason people say that is because leaving your commander at home is a losing strategy. You'd only want to do that if you know they're doing a commdrop. Maybe that's different in high-level play, but commander in base is a losing strategy in the games I play.

vivid carbon
#

I've watched the replay and will give my thoughts:

It was a nicely executed com bomb by Scag, not just a blind rush. He was able to do it in a relatively safe way and cause a lot of damage, the use of fighters to scout ahead and ensure the safety of his transport was nice.

East side reacted to it quickly with ground units but was unable to save Elmer's base in time, I don't think 1-2 llts in base would have changed the outcome for Elmer's base. The East lost the fighter battle which gave Scag free reign to fly closer with his transport.

I don't think a similar strategy would have been as successful if the East team attempted a similar com bomb due to being behind in fighter superiority.

Interesting decision by East to rez the com wreck instead of use the 1250 metal to rebuild quicker. With old com I think the damage done would have been the same (com died in same place as when he passed 670hp), only difference being wreck left behind

@Raghna "many people saying having the commander at home is less valid is also odd, considering the exact counter to this kind of play is to have your commander at home which can kill the enemy commander and survive now"

Com at front line in these 8v8s is a strong weapon, I think especially without the bonus LLT damage. As he was com bombed by a "back player", Elmer having his commander at home would mean his front battle would have been commander-less against an enemy with com at front.

tawny sapphire
#

I don't know that the LLT damage has anything to do with it. Frontline comms don't typically push, they use their buildpower to keep everything else alive, build LLTs and radars, and anchor the frontline with their beefy health and dgun.

vivid carbon
#

My teamgame xp is limited, in 1v1s I've found it now quite easy to walk into some LLTs and dgun them, before it was generally a bad idea

robust schooner
#

i think the weakest part here is that nobody had secured the hill, either the back player coulda put tick on it, i've seen that place as very contested by anything that can fly - so aa there is common place to protect the geo - and fighter screen was also out of the position, so from the replay you can only say that the team got punished more because the base was anyway lost, and potentially just get 750 metal more.

i'm finding argument - commdrops are literally unstoppable & there is nothing you can do a bit weird, when you have no vision and dont have a single aa, if you know that the comdrops are op.

most of the issues should result when comdrop occurs just as you walk out of base, but those are also meta switches (usually arm performs better). like ticks have 900 airlos, and you can scan areas pretty well, as well as maintaining / keeping some mobile force around & keeping con at the base.

hushed yarrow
#

Another thing happening now: If you dont start as far front as possible, enemy comm will get to middle line first

regal zinc
#

Sry boys, I'm just tactically superior, and built different as they say.
As the backliner, now i dont even self-d my comm for metal anymore, as its value is cut in half effectively, so using him in some cheesy play like there is more beneficial (which i like tbh, self-d comm for extra metal is a bit cringe)
Issue is, in my mind, is not only the LLTs being nerfed, but also the Commander gained more hp, effectively nerfing LLTs (and other porc) twice, therefore even beamers are a joke now, and u can see in many of my replays just walking into 2 beamers and d-gunning them for free.
Metal nerf is only painful now because the commander who suicides gets punished less, and it's going to be successful more often now.
Making 2 AAs in base is unreasonable too (160m~), because 1 AA isnt going to stop anyone, as you can just back away from it instantly, so depending on the map (like DSDR) you cant afford 2 AAs anyway.

Changes overall good, but the effective double nerf of towers is very painful against these type of strategies. (just a 31ts shitter opinion tho)

hushed yarrow
#

Making it MUCH more difficult for you to set up any defenses. Because enemy comm can walk into you for like half a minute and Dgun anything you are making

formal junco
#

I played some 1v1s last night with com update, I felt like the old com duel mechanics was more intense. D-gun near enemy com didn't feel risky (no penalty for pissing and hitting com). Cool-down also changed the dynamic, where once I chickened out from the duel we're both stuck with badly injured commanders that needed to be healed.

I didn't like the whole I need to step in front of this LLT dynamic, that just doesn't feel as cool gameplay.

faint warren
#

The issue of defences being too weak against an aggressive comm doesn't hold much (not no) weight when you can have rocket bots or tank arty nullify them as well

hushed yarrow
#

brings out 15 arty when setting up defensive line

vital sedge
formal junco
#

Early Beamers were a big deal @faint warren , in the first minute of contact your factory is a long way away. effectiveness of your commander versus early towers was a core bit of how fast the front line would start to settle down. In old BAR to counter early towers you needed to make a risk and produce rockets kinda before you even see them.

vivid carbon
hushed yarrow
#

We should just all collectively start comm dropping each game until everyone comes here to whine.
Only counter to early comm drop is super fast fighters.
And then they just fly back.
It's also cost effective pretty much from first moment of the game. You get t1 lab, 3 mexes & some turbines?
Already more then paid for itself.
Nukes 12 in in weren't fast enough.
Allow us to introduce 3 min nukes.
It's also low risk if you make few scouts first.

digital orchid
#

I think a problem with cheese in bar is, that scout denial is a bit too easy. Especially on lane maps you have only one way to reach your enemy with a scout, or maps where the backliner is behind a front liner, you need to go through an enemy com, the llts and scouts. If you lose your scouts, you cant know that its an com drop.

If you can scout cheese easier, it wouldnt be such a problem imo.

rigid latch
#

My only current gripe with this whole thing is that, like it or not, @wanton oak, you've become the public face of the update. I get that this is a lot of pressure - but I would still prefer The Public Face of the New Commander to remain calm, reasonable and objective about it, rather than try to OBLITERATE the Kaiser with FACTS and LOGIC.

In particular, I dislike the fact that KaiserGlass and ElmerFudd established the context (8v8, Koom, comm-drop), then raised the worry that you "haven't played in 3 weeks". Given the context, it is obvious 8v8, being the team game mode most affected by this particular aspect of the change, was meant. But instead of discussing that point and possibly conceding it, you tried to go for a "cheap FACTS win" by "scoring points on a technicality" and presenting a list of recent games... which, as anyone can easily check, are 1v1 (unless you've got private games hidden in there somewhere! 😄 ). To me, that seems a bit disrespectful and intellectually dishonest - presenting a true, but irrelevant fact, in a quick switcheroo. I get that you're on tilt in the discussion with Kaiser, but please try to do better. That just looks bad from a PR standpoint, and has left a little bit of a sour taste for me 😦

As it stands, the general sentiment I think people have (which I do not personally share, but I can see where people come from with it) seems to be that no matter what happens, you're going to push this thing through, that you're in a different "bubble" (where in 1v1 this is no issue) and thus can't find common ground with the 8v8 enjoyers. In fact, just playing a bunch of 8v8 games with people, potentially even giving them the opportunity to comm-bomb you a bunch of times if they so choose, would go a long way towards showing good will to the 8v8 community. But I perfectly understand if you choose not to do that - it is a volunteer project, it's your call how to spend your time. I'm just trying to help navigate this.

vivid carbon
#

best way to get something you think is OP nerfed, is to keep doing it - It either gets nerfed on you get shown how to counter it

hushed yarrow
#

I think I honestly will, you don't even need to make a transport, you can just walk your comm from water on strait for example & kill enemy weak sea front base for free.
Let's ruin the game for bunch of ppl ^^

robust schooner
#

I agree with rANDY here, I try to independently check every replay that there was there and similar to Raghna can't find that much issues. Notice that this attitude still carries over from the unbacom for some parts, and I was mostly against it due to the volatility.

I think the original issue of fat combombs being not that great to play against has been solved so I don't think yet the comupdate is perfect, it's better for me, and sure - people will think that this is Raghnas updates for a playstyle that is Raghna (see teching nerfed, solar teching is ass, etc.)

But most of negative feedback I havent seen people exploit it, and then come and say it's so op, why can i roll over opponents easily. Would love to see more of those.

vivid carbon
wanton oak
# rigid latch My only current gripe with this whole thing is that, like it or not, <@200618004...

It has more to do with the kind of character Kaiser/Mel'Kaven/THE GLASS 12/5THS FULL/KaiserGlass (any other ones?) presents in these discussions.
I don't appreciate misrepresenting and gaslighting, especially not when it's to cover up for hurt ego at losing games.
He's already been reported countless times for maliciously attacking teammates when losing, now that he can't do that anymore, he shifts the blame elsewhere.
Doesn't mean I shouldn't stay calm, but I feel strongly about showing people how untruthful his claims are.

@hushed yarrow Nothing prevented anyone from doing this with old com and in fact I did exactly this countless times.

hushed yarrow
robust schooner
# hushed yarrow Wreck being 60% of the value and comm being unkillable whatever you do at that p...

getting air & making trans just for yourself puts you behind that its not worth. coop drops can be op, but harder to coordinate.

imho comupdate is much better than peak combombing meta as it literally opens the lane up, see Sheep just combombing every game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7IsstGtxpU

YouTube
MightySheep
combombing in beyond all reason

just some random combombs, missed some great ones but I'm too lazy to find them in my replays

â–¶ Play video
hushed yarrow
#

I'm just doing it every game now & send ppl to complain here.
If there was a time this was worse at, let's make it worse still.

wanton oak
# hushed yarrow Wreck being 60% of the value and comm being unkillable whatever you do at that p...

like mentioned earlier, comblast damage is less, it falls off and has less range than it was before and commanders are now an extra tool to defend against it
the trouble I'm facing is that at the same time people are complaining that comblast now is way too small and combombs are way too weak now....
no matter what, people will be upset (even at not changing anything)
I tried to go for a balanced approach that goes nicely in the middle and only mildly upsets everyone
I would 100% appreciate further feedback on the comblast damage and further finetune it, damage, falloff coefficient and range, but I'm mostly getting "this good" "this bad"

vivid carbon
#

I don't think the complaints from Scag game is tied to the com-blast size causing the damage, but the com drop being too tough to stop before it d-guns factory/base

regal zinc
#

Instead of combombs now u have com dgun machineguns i guess

timid whale
#

i feel about the same way as scag: specifically "effectively nerfing LLTs (and other porc) twice", imo hp should be reduced somewhat

wanton oak
#

either 1) the commander doesn't explode and then the comupdate doesn't change much at all
2) com explodes

hushed yarrow
#

Before, you could Dgun a comm walking towards your base at very least. It would damage something probably, but not kill a base. Smaller blast is irrelevant when he is free to walk in the middle of your base. Thats like saying: Be glad you were only hit by armada nuke, not cortex one. Result is same anyway. Everything dead.

vivid carbon
#

I'd disagree with 1 - the com living longer lets it dgun more stuff and can let it walk deeper into a base before dieing

robust schooner
# timid whale i feel about the same way as scag: specifically "effectively nerfing LLTs (and o...

why reduced, doesn't it make comm worth more other than glorified early builder, if you are able to push? in scags game, certaintly east team had chose to not get hill, and being blind, and 0 aa 10 minutes in, as well as general unit choices, no con at the base.

less porc = more dynamic game to some extent, where you have commander you are able to influence more.

i personally like moving units around more, rather than defences, it does shift the thinking around.

the core idea was to remove the 100+ special modifiers from the commander as nobody really knows the % difference of what llt does damage vs beamer, etc.

hushed yarrow
#

Comm should get like 1000 HP then, so its more in line with other T1 units and therefore killable by them.

timid whale
# robust schooner why reduced, doesn't it make comm worth more other than glorified early builder,...

fighting commander with thugs or janus or whatever is fine on front, i agree (even buffed probably, because of new explosion). However, you cant generally have these units in your base. If not comm hp reduction (maybe halfway -- to 3500) then i suggest adding a delay to transport loading/unloading. P.S. I also like the removal of special damages, but like Scag said this becomes a double buff to commander hp, and I'm in favor of comm update overall btw

regal zinc
wanton oak
# hushed yarrow Before, you could Dgun a comm walking towards your base at very least. It would ...

The complaints are all about commander not being there, since the commander now survives comblast and can thus be used to defend instead of running away.
Because if you have an enemy commander walking slowly to your base by themselves and you can't stop them, you have more problems regardless of update or not.
Defending commander can laser down an enemy commander before it gets from max range of AA turret to the turret.
If you add 1 llt it gets much less further than that still.

proper rain
#

I think discuss this here does not lead to anything. Nobody will be convinced at the end and nobody will be "right" or "wrong". Just make a huge poll and let the players vote what they like more

digital orchid
#

Would be interested in that tbh, just to get some opinions on it, but it would need to be announced in game with a pop up, and in announcements to get a sizable participation

regal zinc
#

Yes, lets ask all the 15ts lobsters what do they think about the changes, meanwhile, you have to inform spectators every game of what the changes actualy are, cus they dont know anything lmao

robust schooner
ornate aurora
proper rain
#

for me personally comdropping is not the main issue (yet?). I just dislike the com melee now. Getting just lazored without being able to do anything against is not so cool (no need to tell me that i must have done 20 mistakes before to get into that situation in the first place...)

hushed yarrow
digital orchid
vivid carbon
#

My overall thoughts so far on the changes:

  • The commander is now immune to the D-Gun.

Good change, it was not ideal to have two different behaviours for 1v1 and teams. From a gameplay POV this doesn't change 1v1 which is my main game mode. For teams I look forward to see some sick blocks being made, main concern is it stops you cutting losses and stopping a com in base with a dgun.

  • The commander's HP has been increased from 3350 to 4000.
  • Passive HP regeneration during combat has been removed.
  • The commander is no longer susceptible to special damage modifiers from certain units, such as Light Laser Towers.

I'll group these 3 together. I don't value the old commanders regen very highly compared to raw HP, so I see this as a big buff to commanders. Personally for a front line com I would give up the old regen to not take double damage from lasers even without the HP buff. It will take me some time in 1v1s getting used to in dealing with the tankier enemy commanders being aggressive, judging how many units I need to kill them whilst learning how far I can push things with my own boi.

  • Death explosions by the commander inflict less damage, allowing for the possibility of survival after killing an enemy commander.

I like this. No effect on 1v1s, I wasn't a fan of the old chain reaction com-bombs seen in larger team games.

  • The metal value of wrecks has been reduced from 2000m to 1250m.

I like this. No effect on 1v1s, it dissuades self-d for metal in teams which I hate (that's your boi!).

What would I change given the ability?

I'd revert the com HP back down to 3350 as I think the HP buff coupled with the LLT nerf makes the commander too strong of a combat unit early game and very hard to stop. I would give commanders a larger passive income over time (+1m/+10e per 5 minutes of game time) to add a small but increasing cost over time to team players that lose their com (so also an extra cost to com bombing).

zinc shadow
ornate aurora
#

I like this. No effect on 1v1s, I wasn't a fan of the old chain reaction com-bombs seen in larger team games.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there is an effect for 1v1 => previously there was a special handling where the exploding comm would NEVER kill the surviving comm. Now, it always deals damage, which can end up in draws. We had the case yesterday in FFA where Teifion and Dolfy ducked it out, Teifion successfully killed Dolfy but was already damaged and close enough that the explosion also killed his comm, resulting in taking out both of them at once.
EDIT: this was fixed since then

thin zinc
#

if my comm is put at front of my llt and enemy comm tries to dgun my llt through my comm does the dgun work now ? i know in 1/1 in such case i win game cause i had such situation though probably pre-update so yea this question applies to 1/1 too

wanton oak
digital orchid
rancid lantern
#

I know bonus damage is icky but I think LLT comm bonus should go back. The other changes for the most part are good.

thin zinc
molten raven
#

immune should be

wanton oak
ornate aurora
hushed yarrow
#

How do you download replays?

vivid carbon
hushed yarrow
#

Oh, probably will take a bit then.

bleak steppe
#

i still dont get why com hp was increased.
please revert com with old hp and increase healing back.
it simply does not make sense to increase com hp especially with this update that removes llt special damages.
increasing com hp is just begging for trouble.
on top of that it buffs rezzers and kbot start even further.
all other changes were fine, just revert hp changes.

molten raven
#

healing com with rezbots is so bad though
just make plasma bots and heal those for 10x the amount

late imp
hushed yarrow
#

Setting up any amount of aa is rendered useless with single scout.
So far, 100% com bombing success btw. At least 1 dead player with each.
Fun & profitable.

bleak steppe
#

@late impproblems with com drops will always be but yeah, more when com self d is worth less metal.
but the real underlying problem is the hard RPS of air and anti air.
IMO the better solution to com drops is to allow laser weapons to be better at anti air than they are currently so they are an extra buffer against air or add a short range missle to missile turrets so they can be build early in the game as both anti scount and anti air

tawny sapphire
#

There another option: make missile towers able to attack ground units. 🙂

hushed yarrow
bleak steppe
#

@hushed yarrowno, not a nerf to air. make laser towers better at anti air but buff air some other way by reducing AA damage a bit for example.
so laser weapons are a bit better while AA is a bit worse. this will soften the RPS and make it so that its easier to get some anti air weaponary early in the game since it will also be useful against land.
so either make lasers better at anti air or make missile towers have a smaller ranged anti land weapon(not longer than llt).
that way it can make sense to make 1-2 missile towers eary game as anti land scout that will also make it eaiser to counter early com transport rush.

but commander as is needs to go back to his hp before update.
there is no reason for the hp buff.

timid whale
#

rANDY's post is op

tawny sapphire
bleak steppe
#

@tawny sapphirefirst of all nobody said buff air, second of all the issue you mention(explosive eco) needs to be treated in another way(move afus to t3 or reduce its effeciency while also nefing explosion damage or explosion range)

rancid thicket
#

Maybe the issue is not with the commander itself at all. Maybe other changes would help balance things and could have secondary benefits.

One solution off the cuff would be increasing sight range to air units. Things in the sky can be seen from further than on the ground is a reasonable explanation. This way incoming comm transports and air raids would be visible from further away and allow more reaction time.

tawny sapphire
wanton oak
#

air trans being the cheapest air in E is off tbh, even cheaper than scout and more than twice as cheap as other T1 air

bleak steppe
#

@tawny sapphirethen perhaps i didnt explain myself well.
the idea is not to buff or nerf. its to rebalance a bit, not buff or nerf, in order to reduce the RPS.

rancid thicket
#

What about just making the commander gain some weight? They gained 650hp, maybe the T1 transport is not enough to haul them around anymore and you need to use T2. Or maybe a T1.5 transport that is much slower but can move them so you retain the ability to move commander in gimmicky maps where it's required.

molten raven
#

my suggestion is just make t1 transports move even slower when carrying com giving you more time to react

digital orchid
#

How slow should the transports move? Like juggernaut speed or?

rain crater
median ibex
digital orchid
rancid thicket
#

@median ibex I think that's the point thou. It's about nerfing comm drops. I agree with Raghna, most of the replays and in-game situations I've seen the update is not the relevant issue, it's a base being comm dropped and it would have been the same before update. But then that means you now have that as a problem still, so it's the cause of the problem, mearly the issue has been given exposure.

The other commander changes are supposed to reduce volatility at the frontline. The comm drops are still a highly volatile play thou, so the commander update mostly missed these. While the wreck value and explosion falloff is there, for the timing window we are talking about those matter much less.

I think commander having reduced speed or simply not being airliftable at all early game (via T2 gating) would reduce this volatility. There are probably other ways to do this, like my other suggestion of having aircraft visible from further than other units. All these ideas are just first thing to spring to mind, I'm sure they could be refined or other ideas could also work. Point is it might not be the commander itself that needs the change.

deft totem
#

with linear dmg fallout u can still combomb pretty easily

wanton oak
#

a lot of people feel very strongly about wanting to keep combombing an option
it's weaker than it was before, but still exists
I'm open to arguments of the line needing to be slightly altered one way or the other
I think the amount of comments that agree with some changes, but disagree with others, show that a change was indeed needed but also that not everyone can have their idea implemented at the same time

cold bluff
#

I like the update but i don't think it's weaker, the commander can kill a lot more now than before and it gives less metal, explosion being weaker doesn't change com bomb in other people base but it changes com bombing front line defences

late imp
#

just make it so comdrops are not so op lol

molten raven
#

i personally am not the biggest fan of the com update, but i'm trying to keep an open mind as i can understand the reason for some of the changes

rancid thicket
#

The only issue I see with frontline com bombing now is it's tough when you fall behind in HP even a little, the other commander just walks at you. Having a defensive structure, unit or commander ability that is more accessible than the riot tank with a momentum cut on it would be nice. So if you setup the "slow you down" turret the enemy commander loses distance from yours. Could also be useful at choke points to slow raiders, nothing worse than 2 stouts killing 20 mexes because they are 1% ahead of defending units.

hushed yarrow
#

I have problems sending ppl here because they quit too fast lol

formal junco
#

I'm going to ask the devs to keep an open mind, but I don't see this being a popular update with community. It's of course hard to poll the community. But, gotta ask if com update is helping the gate or hurting it.

wanton oak
# late imp just make it so comdrops are not so op lol

I agree that comdrops are very undesirable and should only happen extremely rarely because of how the game mechanics work
I honestly think comdropping is already very weak, but it is a very high impact play that is relatively easy to do, even at low TS
I don't think the update made comdrops stronger, I honestly think in a lot of ways comdrops were stronger before
other methods of adressing comdrops might be more effective imho

@formal junco you'd say you don't see it being popular no matter what since you were in here complaining about it before having tested anything or seen any replays, rich of you to then say "keep an open mind"

formal junco
#

I dunno, I could be swayed if there was actual popular opinion. I see it as fair mixed TBH. I don't want to engage on whether I've been playing enough to comment, even an outsider can see this isn't the most popular thing. Like when GFX got upgrade that was popular, tons of people said yay.
Now you get a mixed reaction and you're acting like it's progress. Really I'd be curious what people think over all. I hate d-gun immunity, but I can adapt if people think that's what the d-gun is.

deft totem
#

so com vs com in ffa both coms die wtf is this why is this aloowed why is this good

rigid latch
#

That was meant to be fixed I think, CJ

wanton oak
timid girder
#

updates are dependant on actually having empty lobbies
and sometimes they do not update ever for some reason

sinful garnet
hushed yarrow
#

Make Dgun push a comm. Just a little so it can still advance. Thats same thing but without special rules. Tho I would like Dgun just killing comm much more. We need a way to kill them early.

timid whale
wanton oak
bleak steppe
#

just reduce com hp back to 3k

timid girder
hushed yarrow
#

Just throwing this here. So, 4 players dead in 8:30. Comm did half of it solo. (and yes, enemy comm was chasing me for a while, shame he couldnt Dgun me while I walked into middle of his base)

image.png
rancid thicket
#

@sinful garnet exactly, there are many ways to address issues that don't involve just the binary choice of revert change/do not revert! Game design is all about balancing a million factors, I see almost all of the comm update as positive changes, but of course other factors are affected also, solution is not revert wholecloth, it's more tweaks.

proper rain
timid whale
sinful garnet
# proper rain wait, what?? you don't agree comdrops are stronger now? with com: * immune to dg...

Dgun immunity does not matter for most comdrops, as the commander is usually on the front line and not in base able to Dgun the dropper
Same with combomb, you commander is usually not back in base able to hug the dropper to death (and if it is, now you get the nice bonus of your commander being able to survive their blast while lasering them)
HP increase towards LLTs is very real. Cannot panic build a couple LLTs to stop a commander dropping at the edge of AA range and have it work as well.
Reduced wreck is also a concern. And one side effect of that is backline may send out more comdrops as self-d in base is less of an attractive option.

wanton oak
# proper rain wait, what?? you don't agree comdrops are stronger now? with com: * immune to dg...

immune to dgun
means the defending commander is also immune to dgun and can't be instabombed
harder to combomb due to less detonation damage
combombs are stronger because the detonation damage is lower???
HP increase towards LLTs 3300 -> 8000
1 or 2 LLT did not protect against comdrops before, you needed 3 LLT from every possible direction and more if the enemy cloaked
still only takes 6 pawns to kill a commander

your commander now being a tool that can defend a comdrop rather than a huge reliability that has to run away ASAP is however a huge benefit for the defender

proper rain
#

nobody is speaking about "perfect comdrop protection". Its about making things harder or not. This is not black or white. If you are denying any effect on comdrops then I dont see a basis for a discussion here

cold bluff
#

com bomb with trans and walking front line com bomb are very different, so it's pointless discussing it like it's the same thing

wanton oak
timid whale
#

Still ongoing I think

bleak steppe
#

to keep comdrops from being more common(not completely gone of course) do ONE of the following:
1)revert hp back, increase health regen if u wanna buff survivability.
2)increase laser dmg versus air so llts do decent dmg to transports.
3)make missile turrets shoottheir missile on land in a low range equivalnet to llt, this means its not a pain to make them early game since they will have a dule use.

molten raven
#

for 3 do you mean the ferret and sam? because thistles and nettles are already cheaper than LLTs, not at all painful to make in the early game

magic siren
#

I feel like the answer to this problem is to not build the aa right on top of your base, instead build it towards the front edge so that transports have to fly through it to make the drop.

Comdrops shouldn't be impossible.

timid whale
bleak steppe
#

@molten raventhe problem with missile turrets when they are pure AA is u dont want to waste metal cause u dont ever really need such early aa unless someone is planning on comdropping near u which is rare...
so u get this dynamic where nobody is motivated to make early aa cause comdrops are rare but this way when they do happen they can be game breaking and unfun.

making aa shoot land a bit makes them useful as anti scout units early game increasing the chance players build them making comdropping a bit harder thus making it an even rarer happening and when it does happen the chances are higher it fails

onyx patrol
# bleak steppe <@303911006655086594>the problem with missile turrets when they are pure AA is u...

I disagree with that. Nettles are super cheap, and its not flaw of game design if players are "forced" to build certain cheap structures preemptively to counter certain tactics. As an example, in SC2, Zerg will commonly build an AA unit at each base around 4:30 to blind counter air strategies used by Terran or Protoss.

Zerg doesn't gain anything from this if the terran doesn't actually commit to the attack, but it's still more than fine, no ones calling for Banshees and cloak to be nerfed because a reasonably cost effective counter exists. No one's asking for spore crawlers (the AA structure) to be given a ground attack as compensation if the opponent doesn't go air but uses a ground army instead because "it was a waste of resources to build that when the opponent didn't go air".

You should already build at least 2 nettles in your base anyway to counter 5 min 5 bomber raids. Or if you're super greedy like me/forgetful, at the very least you should have the buildpower and constructors available to instantly drop 2 nettles the second you hear the air unit spotted announcement. It's not a waste of metal at all, you are gaining security against not just 1 specific annoying cheese strat, but also countering a very popular playstyle of early bomber raids.

It's not a problem, nor a waste, for players to preemptively build certain structures or units to counter specific cheesy strats.

velvet sage
# vivid carbon My overall thoughts so far on the changes: - The commander is now immune to the...

Agree on most things.

But on the HP / regen / special damages part:
I'd rather bring back the special damages for the short-range turrets. So the 4000 hp keeps the Commander harder to snipe, which I think is a good thing. But I don't like Commander being too good as a straightforward offensive piece, blasting through turrets and such with ease. Be it on a frontline, comdropping a base, or going for an all-in walk towards the enemy base.

It's not necessarily any kind of balance issue, everyone can go rambo with their Comm to the extent of their skills, but just a preference of how easily you should be able to bully your opponent wit ya boi. Just saying that special damages are bad, isn't enough for a justification for this I think - seems like a glib explanation especially when another bunch of special damages vs commanders were still left in place. Let's not focus only on whether special damages are good or bad in the abstract, but think about what will result in more interesting games. Many people might like the aggressive Commander better, but we should acknowledge that that is what this change really is about in its consequences, whether we want or not.
The mishmash of special damages that existed prior, where Beamer does 2x damage vs Commander, LLT 1,87x, Dragons Maw 0,75x, etc etc, was a weird mess for sure, but that can be simplified to all these short-range turrets doing 2x dmg. This kind of rule is easy to remember and communicate.

Comdrops specifically I don't have a clear opinion on how strong they are, but at least in 8v8 it's possible to have a dedicated air player whose job it would be to shut that down. To really pressure test if comdropping is broken in some way, you'd have to play it in 2v2-4v4 I think.

mortal saffron
#

the update is fine as it is

bleak steppe
#

totally against special damages.
the need for special damages just means you failed in design.
that are ways around each problem without special damages.
every special damage in the game right now is due to design failures.
its simply a cheap solution that destroys strategic depth

timid girder
bleak steppe
#

those games are designed with special damages in mind and they usually dont feature much simulation. in BA/AA it was always a crutch.
the fun and one of the unique features of TA and spring games is exactly that they have heavy simulation that allows the freedom to differentiate units based on how they behave in the deep simulation of the engine.

fading swift
#

so far my impression is that we need time for the community to adjust to the fact that there's some new strategic options/implications. I'm on the fence atm about whether the commander needs the health boost reverted, but overall I think the changes are positive and I'm generally supportive. But I admit this is from someone who thinks com-selfdestruct for eco is silly and shouldn't be part of the game. comdrops happening into bases at XX minutes in or comm walking into bases (front or rear) I consider a player issue atm, though I think I'm open to being convinced otherwise (others might disagree). So far I think most of the evidence presented (as in game footage) of supposed bad consequences of the com update have been pretty poor.

median ibex
bleak steppe
#

it is bad design cause its not wysiwyg.
given a gameplay problem and two choices to solve it using special damages or otherwise the non special dmg solution is better.
and the issue is for all the specified problems we can come up with solutions that do not require special damages

velvet sage
cold bluff
#

I remember in BA long time ago people would build much more AA turrets to stop com bomb it wasn't unusual to build 2 turrets on DSD and to stop air scouts, everybody had AA in their base but in BAR no one cares to be scouted or combombed

robust schooner
rancid lantern
timid girder
#

Let’s not forget you can do a com drop without mexes

sacred kelp
#

I'm finding the current com situation severely degrading the quality of the game.

It's especially problematic on maps with complicated geology or water portions where an early com simply walking up cannot reliably be detected, so an early fighter to stave off a transport is not even good enough. I've seen a comm drop every other game at least on Straits because of the complex geography that provides too many avenues of sneaking in that cannot be reliably covered by radar or forward units in the timing that it occurs.

west marten
median ibex
#

If you're a frontliner and you hear the transport warning and you don't have AA already, it is already too late. Comdrops were not meta because they were very hard to pull off and a failure would mean the enemy got a huge metal boost. Now they're much easier to pull off and even if you fail the enemy gets a much smaller metal boost. They're already becoming the meta in just a couple days since the update went live.

hushed yarrow
#

So, 100% of my
games on strait were decided by comms walking into bases.
No air transport.
Just walking.
Won all of them but one, where enemy front liner walked straight into ally base, built turrets there under fire & killed his lab with dgun.
Idk, 100% seems bit op for a strategy.
Can we all agree that maybe, just maybe giving buffs to strongest unit by far, you get for free and removing your defenses against it is a terrible idea?

I'll keep abusing ppl with it until we do that.

rigid latch
#

Remember to add example replays to your posts if you want to make a point about how the meta is starting to look like!

hushed yarrow
#

Would like to if there wasn't 4 game gap in replays on the site

pseudo widget
median ibex
sacred kelp
#

I think the actual best solution to the situation is to nerf the hell out of D-guns. An instant oneshot against T3 units only and everything else takes a reduced flat damage. In many ways, the comms in this game are significantly weaker than the comms in FA, with the sole caveat that they have a weapon that does infinite damage to anything in the game.

I LOVE the cloak sneak up on a Jugg for a hero Dgun, so I'm fine with infinite damage in that regard to end game units, but the cooldown on Dgun is so infinitesimally small that it can be spammed very early on and kills anything, including buildings. That's crazy and just encourages walking your comm into enemy bases to spam D click on everything until you blow up and kill everything that's still standing. If buildings at least were immune/highly resistant to both Dgun and comm explosions then it would relegate Comms to dgunning and stopping early pushes in a defensive manner, or in a frontline support manner where they're fighting units and not buildings. That, from my understanding, is what their game role is meant to be.

pseudo widget
rigid latch
wise bison
#

How many llt's do you need to kill a comm emerging from the water at Strait before it gets too close to your lab?

median ibex
#

depends on spacing. At least 4

sacred kelp
#

Assuming you even pick the right side of the midlane, or he doesn't walk along the north or east edges of the water to the naval players, or just airdrops on the plataeu above the weakside naval where the geothermal is, or one of the twenty other places that make this strategy so hard to do anything about. You basically have to spend your entire early game wondering where one commander is going to pop up and if you build to counter all of it you just lose the frontline, since it's usually a backliner's com that does it.

wanton oak
#

I mean, ignoring an enemy as they slowly walk all the across the map into your base really doesn't seem to be a balance issue at all and this was very abusable w old coms, people just weren't as aware of it.

rigid latch
median ibex
#

That's not true at all. An old com slow walking could easily be stopped by your own com, or a couple llts

sacred kelp
#

Even assuming that is the case, @wanton oak , where you have radar to see a commander coming (or sonar since this often happens underwater), you're asking players to recognize the exact movement cadence of that specific dot amongst all the others as the pace a commander walks out. Which, certainly is something I can do as a TS ~30 but asking newer or less successful players to immediately notice that THAT one specific radar dot is really dangerous compared to all the others(assuming again they even have intel on the one of thirty different positions it's going to happen in this specific game). If the player whose side its on is even a little bit distracted or inexperienced in identifying units by movement speed, they'll probably lose their whole base and potentially the base behind them too. I don't think that's particularly ergonomic or intuitive. These commanders aren't just walking through the frontline.

Comm bombing didn't happen nearly as often like this in FAF as far as my experience and I think it's exclusively because the buildings didn't die in the explosion or in a single D-gun. That's my take.

pseudo widget
#

tbh the llt nerf makes little sense... since we are already buffing the commanders.. imho, 3 think can be done to almost resolve this it.. 1) return llt dmg on commander 2) make transport slower with commander 3) dgunned commander leave no wreck. Things that will happen with this.. AA tower everywhere, the front will remain the same with less incentive to walk and trade dgun commander. #3 may need more deep dive thou

hushed yarrow
faint hinge
#

Plenty of new players not realizing they cant dgun my comm in this update as I walk into the rest of their base

wanton oak
pseudo widget
sacred kelp
#

The only reason @faint hinge didn't pull the comm bomb off on the last game we played is because his foolish commander shot my hovercraft as he was walking underwater and I pinged him. 😄

hushed yarrow
pseudo widget
faint hinge
hushed yarrow
sinful garnet
faint hinge
# sinful garnet Huh. Honestly, looking at that replay, the comupdate did not come into play at a...

there is no way id have gotten the 3rd base without comupdate. Guy had everything he needed without the comupdate to stop it. But likely, I had the update on my side so I could ignore both his commander and his llt, just take the base. If he'd Dgunned me on the way up and Id died, would have saved most of his base.

Edit: He also only got 1250 metal. Not even close to break even for how much stuff I'd killed. Commander is way more of a weapon post update due to the reduced risk of dropping than he was prior. 2k Prior to would have at least paid for all the labs. Barely pays for 2 after.

sinful garnet
# faint hinge there is no way id have gotten the 3rd base without comupdate. Guy had everythin...

Frankly, the player at base 3 was a new player, and could have done a lot to mitigate damage (early dragon claw by the geo is an interesting choice)
Img 1, his commander was on the wrong side of the base when you landed. Just one LLT in the way.
img 2, earliest he was in Dgun range to you. Most of the base was dead already, And pre-update, everything in the red rings would have died in the commander explosions.

image.png image.png
wanton oak
#

I don't get it.
there's literally nothing here that would have happened any way different without comupdate other than shadhunter dying a few seconds earlier to dgun (still well inside enemy base)
stomping noobs and trying to use that as a showcase is incredibly dishonest
furthermore, nanobot here could have survived here if he knew how the comblast works
which means in total the only difference would have been:
down 750 metal, but up a commander
I think not losing your commander is worth 750 metal yeah

image.png image.png image.png image.png
faint hinge
#

Raghna friend, you cant call everyone dishonest just for expressing an opinion you disagree with.

Edit: You're so fixated on the outcome versus the decisions that lead to these things happening. The risk is nigh on removed. I'd never have attempted this at 2k metal comms with defenses that can actually threaten my commander. Here the only real answer is to just have figs by 3-4 minutes.

Edit 2: Because im forced to use edits. It's not dishonest, because me, being me, know that I would not have attempted that. But I had no risk here, so.... Full send it. That's why it's not dishonest. @wanton oak There is only reward after the update in that situation, no risk.

wanton oak
sinful garnet
#

The fatal mistake by NE team might have been Base 1, DiscoWizard. He self-d his commander for metal right as you arrived (something that should happen far less now due to less metal in the wreck).
If he was still in base, he would still have lost most of it (due to the lack of any AA forcing you to land further away), but would have stopped you from going to other bases (I think commander lasers down transports pretty fast?)

sacred kelp
#

Okay, so how about this game? https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=cc4e7464b6ed0349c937da3ea4a1ebc0

We end up winning but Tuxedo_Luigi does massively outsized damage by hiding a commander in a place radar is difficult to reach (the only way to find him there was to fly a radar plane in a place that it doesn't make organic sense to do so). The only reason we win is because I manage to hold my team's mental together and use my naval advantage, but you're telling me that this is an earned advantage Luigi gets for his team here because he just flies his com somewhere weird and waits to walk him in an dgun everything?

And before you tell me I'm dishonest, @wanton oak, the two players who lost their bases to this were 27 and 30 TS. So not noobs.

Edit: It's fair to say the comm update didn't introduce this but it made it more valuable to do since comms can't Dgun your approach and you leave less metal behind. Regardless, this playstyle is severely degrading the quality of BAR in my opinion.

BAR Replays

Replays of Battles once fought!

rigid latch
wanton oak
faint hinge
#

I've got a game where I dropped on the frontliner from the backline. It's just as easy, and with the risk greatly diminished, the nuance in the decision is greatly removed.

rancid lantern
sinful garnet
#

I think my personal update for the day, in regards to the side-effects of the comupdate, is that the reduced wreck 2000 ->1250 makes it so unworthwhile to self-d your commander for a tech boost, so now backliners have a commander that they can play with.
Pre update, commanders are either dead in the back to make T2, or on the front anchoring it.
Post-update, the commanders in the back are alive, and the best use for them in this week's meta is to comdrop players. Combination of it is not worth it to keep them in base, and your wreck is not gonna boost anyone you drop on top of.

faint hinge
#

Relevant that Cortex bot lab, plus 4 solars is 1,220 metal. Nearly break even. If the player is arm, bot lab and 4 solars is actually a net positive to the dropper.

If you want to account for lost production and Eco, this is a real easy trade if your home base is fine.

hushed yarrow
#

New strat idea, 8 comm push.
Just ferry all the comms to the front.
No chain explosion, no sneaky dguns offing multiple, massive health pool & imunity to anything that's not centurion or medium tank.
Instantly removes all the defenses with dguns

pseudo widget
#

not to mention now waiting a bit with the com after you land is worth it as you are just looking for those juicy juicy t2 labs 1 shot to break even 😄, would love looking at those 50% complete t2 labs 😄

Edit 1: agree with below that reducing wreck, immune to dgun, lesser llt dmg on it... is just buff on buff on buff for "commander diving"

faint hinge
#

Honestly, if the commander was still 2k, it would at least fix the risk-reward ratio of the new commander. He just got bigger and better but lost the downside of losing him.

wanton oak
sacred kelp
#

I'm not saying that mattered, and I even said that about the comm update. I'm saying the decision to do this is effortless because even if they DON'T do their comm in for metal, they STILL can't stop you with it. It removed the enemy comm from the equation, in fact it just made a second explosion to clear out the base properly. I am saying that this newly popular playstyle, in part due to the comm update, is ruining this game imo.

Let me turn this around on you. Do you think either of those comms being alive would have saved JDOG's base? Because I don't. The update specifically made it so they can't stop Luigi's comm. 🙂

hushed yarrow
#

I had game where they tried to dgun me on approach.
I'll post it once I get home & someone tells me how can I share replays that are on my pc.
You are looking for technicalities.
There is a problem here that needs solving, you are just making everyone who loves the game angry by deflecting every concern.

sinful garnet
#

Realistically, I like the fact that after 6 minutes, half the commanders in a team game are not dead due to being sacked for T2 metal.

And air raids do the same thing, kill T2 factories and bases without leaving any bomber reclaim (you do keep ~60% of the T2 factory metal as its wreck though, ~1750 metal value)

But transports make commanders too fast, and the transports come out way faster than the 12 cortex T1 bombers (1800 metal) needed to 1-shot a T2 lab.

primal holly
#

transport OP need to nerf transport

pseudo widget
#

make commander fatter to reflect his newly make armour (its so heavy i fly at 1/8 the speed).

Edit1: maybe even walk slower 😄

timid girder
#

Teching quite literally makes you closer to losing a match
You are making a trade for that
Sacing coms for t2 isn’t meta on most maps and isn’t good for most situations
It’s only in specific 8v8 maps where sacing com for t2 was possible

wanton oak
# sacred kelp I'm not saying that mattered, and I even said that about the comm update. I'm sa...

Before update:
your commander in your base was an insta bomb to be dgunned
After update:
your commander + 1 llt or a few pawns kills enemy commander and survives

I do 100% agree that this sort of gameplay being very common is bad.
I'm arguing that this was already possible before, was not made stronger than before but several players simply highlighted the play causing it to become much more common regardless of the change

rancid lantern
sacred kelp
# wanton oak Before update: your commander in your base was an insta bomb to be dgunned After...

I'm saying your commander and pawns don't even stop this anyway. Literally Luigi appears for the first time in JDOG's base, if his commander was there all it changes is both of them blow up together in the comm explosion and cloud lives. Sure that helps a little but it's still ridiculous how easy you can convert this cheese into advantages unless everyone specifically spends their time thinking about it at the detriment to their other efforts.

Even IF the commander and pawns kill the comm, where is it dying? Inside your base where everything that explodes belongs to you.

faint hinge
hushed yarrow
# wanton oak Before update: your commander in your base was an insta bomb to be dgunned After...

Problem is, few pawns do nothing.
10 won't kill a comm when 7 die on approach and 3 soon after.
Dgun is good.
As it should be.
But you removed any tools we had to stop or even delay comm at range.
You can walk it under fire right into enemy base.
2 if first is poorly defended.
And they can do nothing but watch.

Btw, just realised, energy storage is basically 6 round mag for a comm
That needs...
Exploring.

sharp cosmos
#

before you had to explain that llts did extra damage, now you have to explain how to stop that comm from stomping you

wanton oak
#

A commander + 1 llt or a commander + a few pawns does kill an enemy commander with your commander surviving.
None of the replays here were decided because of a 750 metal wreck difference.

meta shift is mostly based off of players perceiving certain plays to be stronger, them happening more often, then being countered more often

this can be seen with nukes, with bombing rushes etc

you talk about the cost of the person who gets comdroped, but consider the cost of the person doing the comdrop
the risk cost you pay is huge in the loss of momentum, in the last replay tuxedo luigi put himself entirely out of the game for the sake of comdropping, basicaly nuking his own base, but this isn't seen from the perspective of the person being comdropped
this is part why his team lost in the end too

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hushed yarrow
#

Comm is like a 200 metal nano after early game.
I mostly had him supp a factory to not get in a way.
Now I'm using him to nuke ppl few minutes in with 100% success rate so far & reduced risk should it ever fail.
Better I say.
For my ts, not game overall.

sinful garnet
# rancid lantern I like that too, this is one thing that's definitely better with comm update. S...

Better solution is to drastically increase the buildtime requirement of the T2 lab.
As long as metal gates access to T2, and as long as commander wreck is more than ~1400 (the T1 economic value of the commander in terms of buildpower and income), commanders will be sacked to get to T2 faster.

What we have here is as soon as you hit T2, T2 mexes and fusions can replace the economic value of your commander for way cheaper (+2 m and +25 e is barely anything once you have T2 mexes and a fusion), so losing your commander does not hurt you that much.
And you did not sack it earlier to get to T2, so now it is a free agent.
And turns out, in situations where air raids and bombers work, comdrops also work.

At least a nettle forces a commander to drop at the edge of its range. A nettle is not going to stop 12 bombers from wrecking your base.

As long as you have enough forces to take off 33% of the dropped commander's health (LLTs, pawns, grunts, etc), you can laser duel them at max-ish range, and live through the explosion (which does ~1k damage at max range)

sharp cosmos
#

thing is, some people do like teching, and right now if you don't walk your comm at front you are at huge disadvantage, and noobs can't both control their comm and tech at base

rigid latch
sacred kelp
# wanton oak A commander + 1 llt or a commander + a few pawns does kill an enemy commander wi...

You're comparing apples to oranges:

You're taking Luigi's position right when the play started and comparing it to when the play ended for the other two.

Which, this is what it looks like:

JDOG, Cloud, Luigi in order.

Who came out ahead here, again?

Sure, Luigi could have a big base by now but instead he has a t1 air base with constructors and 5-6 banshees compared to two other players who have absolutely nothing.

Acting like he lost them the game and not, say, that I drove their naval player to quit entirely, is very silly. Luigi's play was totally, absolutely, 100% positive for his team in a huge way even if it slowed his own expansion. It just wasn't enough to make up for his other teammate's deficiencies elsewhere.

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wanton oak
#

I would consider giving the commander an increased passive income with time, giving it increased value over time
if not it being another special mechanic
another thing I'd personally consider is giving the commander a unique buildoption, perhaps making T3 lab only buildable by commander

hushed yarrow
#

Increase income is useless when 8v8 game is won by one person 8 min in.

You would just borrow another comm for a bit.

faint hinge
sacred kelp
#

I still do not understand why comm explosions and dguns should damage non-defensive buildings. Can anyone tell me what these features provide to the game except making it possible to send your commander in to destroy people's core bases, which is explicitly the problem here?

Seriously, why?

If the DGUN/Comm explosion simply worked on units and defensive buildings, the only thing that would change is that commanders wouldn't be encouraged to go wander into the factory bases of their opponents. They would still fulfill all their other healthy functions for game balance.

I'm still waiting to hear why this isn't the answer.

sharp cosmos
#

you have a perspective of a pro player, but right now if you don't defend perfectly like most people you are at huge disadvantage

rigid latch
#

@sharp cosmos, I'm so not looking forward to running clinics if comm drops become even more prevalent.

@wanton oak,

another thing I'd personally consider is giving the commander a unique buildoption, perhaps making T3 lab only buildable by commander

Optimal play before update already was to eat 1999 metal from comm wreck to tech, then put it back later and resurrect to dgun juggernauts. Sure, lower wreck value, but I just wanted to point out a potential flaw.

@sacred kelp's idea of a selective dgun does at least curtail griefing! But it seems, I don't know, inelegant. This is a massive ball of plasma we're talking about. Now it's a smart ball of plasma? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Sorry for the triple, slow mode is what it is.

hushed yarrow
#

You want to add 100 exeptions to remove single one.
Just make comm dgunnable, and make llts do dmg to them.

sharp cosmos
#

it's not like you can just defend a com drop with an aa, on some spots you have to place aa quite further or otherwise they'll land outside of range
i don't think even the famous cannon rushes of sc2 are that annoying

wanton oak
# sacred kelp You're comparing apples to oranges: You're taking Luigi's position right when t...

I mean, there's also the case that orange here attacked green while green had 0 defences
orange could've attacked with literally anything and had a similar result
bombers, gunships, hovers
heck, he could've flown there, made a bot lab outside of vision, spammed pawns and could've done much more damage than just combombing

I still do not understand why comm explosions and dguns should damage non-defensive buildings.
because that would be a really weird special rule where there's a long list of units dguns and explosions damage and another long list of units it doesn't

@sharp cosmos that's true and I do consider the comdrop to be too easy for too big of an impact
the change does reduce the impact of the play, part of that reduced impact is indeed a somewhat smaller risk due to lower comwreck
I simply think people incorrectly attribute the increased occurance of comdrops to it being stronger, which I argue it's not and all of these plays were possible with old coms and comwreck not being a deciding factor
perhaps a change is needed, but I think Itanthias is correct to assess that back players who now don't self D their coms anymore want to make use of their coms and that comdropping always has been too easy and too high-risk-high-reward

sacred kelp
median ibex
# wanton oak A commander + 1 llt or a commander + a few pawns does kill an enemy commander wi...

consider the cost of the person doing the comdrop
the risk cost you pay is huge in the loss of momentum
It's literally not though, if you can destroy the lab and energy production of even a single player, you have come out significantly ahead. And with how hard it is to kill a commander early on, especially with the extra 700hp, most players will seriously struggle to do that.

You keep saying these example replays are not affected by the changes, but that's just blatantly untrue. There are multiple examples in these recent replays where a few llts, or a single dgun, or even a small number of units would have put a stop to the com rampage pre-update. On top of the already-mentioned fact that failing to do damage, or eventually dying after success, you drop 750 less metal than before, which means the downside is considerably smaller.

You need to join these team games, your lack of context on how the game is playing with these changes is becoming painfully obvious. Experienced players are abusing the fuck out of these changes, and new players are confused and frustrated because they cannot deal with the power of the new com.

pseudo widget
#

i am a little confused here.... imho, com diving is now greatly more profitable at min 5-6 and i feel thats the main issue here... anything that happen be4 will happen normally.. going all in like what Luigi did above is just not optimized yet.

Edit 1: I say we wait for Playts51's replay... only special kind of cough cough optimized things like this in our mind ^^'

faint hinge
sinful garnet
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The Luigi replay is another case of comupdate having no effect, except for the reduced wreck at the end. LLT special damage did not come into play, both back commanders were sacked, Luigi did not need the extra health to tank though opposition, did not need his explosion to take out more stuff.

Luigi sending a bomber run up through purple's base would have also killed off JDOG and Cloud. Maybe not as scorched earth.

All it took was 9 sprinters to end Luigi.

There was somebody I have played with who had a practiced centurion drop, which also tended to delete unprepared bases.

hushed yarrow
#

Will have to wait for 7 ish hours.
Horrors of working life and all that.

And yeah, especially newbs are getting roflstomped rn.
Strait is most easy map in the pool for this.
Good terrain and all that, plus ppl like to tech fast.

sacred kelp
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It's coming into play even so. Sure, those things didn't happen that game (LLTs or pawns in the backline) but even if they did, with the comm update it still would have worked out for Luigi because those things wouldn't kill his comm anymore.

He knew that going in. The comm update has removed the danger. In this case it didn't matter but that didn't affect Luigi's decision making ahead of time. He knew that even if JDOG tried to stop this, he couldn't so he did it risk free. JDOG didn't try to stop it so it worked especially well but the preknowledge that your strat has no viable counter makes you more likely to do the strat.

regal zinc
#

nerf dgun by increasing its cost lmao 500 > 2000 or smth ridiculous, wont change much lategame, but would reduce a lot of early shenanigans mayhaps?

I think another issue that this is near impossible to balance perfectly because you have to balance around 1v1s, small games, and 8v8s as well as some PVE modes (which are less relevant, but still)

median ibex
# sinful garnet The Luigi replay is another case of comupdate having no effect, except for the r...

It is still coming into play, part of the reason comdrops were so rare before because it could be countered so effectively by a couple llts or a nearby commander. The risk of going air, potentially sacrificing your com and 2k metal was very, very high. Now you can go in knowing that even if there are llts or nearby commanders, it doesn't matter and you can just kill them or avoid them. The comupdate is coming into play even when the special damages are not literally happening.

sharp cosmos
pseudo widget
hushed yarrow
wanton oak
# median ibex > consider the cost of the person doing the comdrop > the risk cost you pay is h...

You keep saying these example replays are not affected by the changes, but that's just blatantly untrue.

There are multiple examples in these recent replays where a few llts, or a single dgun, or even a small number of units ***would ***have put a stop to the com rampage pre-update.

The above two sentences are a contradiction to each other.

For sure there will be a case where because of the update something will happen that made a comdrop stronger than it would have been with old coms. I'm not arguing that.
I'm arguing that since the hundreds or thousands of games already played with the update, and somehow nobody has yet managed to show a replay where that actually objectively was the case shows that in the vast majority of cases this simply isn't true
moreover in the meanwhile I've seen several cases where comdrop was worse because of update

I ask you to consider the fact that it happening more often because people consider the play more, leading to lots of highly volatile games, is wrongly attributed to the changes, but was in fact entirely possible with old coms and was in fact not made stronger

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hushed yarrow
#

Best ones are not there.
I played in the gap too.
Dunno why they don't appear.
Maybe because update happened and I played in outdated lobby?
No idea.
Could watch them on pc normally tho

Hence why I'll post some of them when I come home when I learn how.
Tho with little optimalisation, you could have t2, 3-4 destroyed bases and generally unhappy enemies 9 min in.

proper rain
#

Maybe we can turn the game around for once? Post replays of OLD com situations and everyone can explain why this isn't a problem at all?

sharp cosmos
#

maybe raghna can drop an old replay and explain where there is a problem

hushed yarrow
#

Even if you prove it was bad before, you can't use it to justify making everything worse.
Noone here argues stuff was perfect before.
We argue its worse now.

wanton oak
# hushed yarrow Even if you prove it was bad before, you can't use it to justify making everythi...

Your experience is worse because more people (including yourself) are comdropping.
I'm arguing more people comdropping is because of that play being highlighted but not because it's better.
It's the exact same reason why nobody would nuke rush for a really long time, then without any game changes comes along a player that constantly nuke rushes and then suddenly everyone complains that nuke rush is too strong and it happens every game and then suddenly more players try nuke rushing themselves.

sharp cosmos
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i mean we have a plenty of problems like subpar sea gameplay and we argue about something noone complained about in the first place

robust schooner
#

i just pulled some old comdrop replays (2021) everyone has so much aa so early 😄

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rigid latch
# wanton oak Your experience is worse because more people (including yourself) are comdroppin...

Raghna, I can see your point - both hypotheses ("commdrop is stronger now" and "commdrop is the talk of the town") generate the same observation (**everybody's commwalking at me... 🎶 **), and we can't quite tell which it is, really. I can see you're quite convinced of the latter. I, for one, am not certain either way yet. Suppose for a second it's the former that's the true state of the game - what sort of experimental test, what kind of standard for evidence would change your mind about it?

sharp cosmos
primal holly
#

get all (or at least a lot) replays (old and new) with comdrops and calculate comdrop win chance, compare old comdrop win chance vs new comdrop win chance
but nobody gona do that

pseudo widget
# primal holly get all (or at least a lot) replays (old and new) with comdrops and calculate co...

imo.. i think we are mixing comdrop (which bankrupt you) vs com diving (newly given ability). but what do I know, I am new

Edit 1: I think com diving is specifically stronger vs preupdate since it comes in later with troops beside the com and now comes with wreck :|. Then again Raghna is likely thinking that Meta will change to slower t2 which makes com drop/diving less profitable with more defense..

faint hinge
#

Both are really strong with the new update, I dont think theres much mixup going on though.

median ibex
# wanton oak Your experience is worse because more people (including yourself) are comdroppin...

But comdrops didn't just start happening randomly, this is not just a meta shift because someone did something strong in a vacuum. There are several very significant changes to how a comdrop plays out, and they all make it stronger individually, and broken in aggregate.

  1. Metal reduction. If something goes bad (or even if it goes right), I am donating much less metal to the enemy team on death. This makes it much more appealing to do.
  2. Tower damage reduction. Before, comdrops were risky because even if there aren't any towers there, I know that they can be built very quickly and that my commander will have a difficult time facing more than 2 of them.
  3. Dgun. If there's a commander nearby, they can instantly stop any aggression. They will lose a com and potentially some/most of their base, but they will be able to recover very quickly with 4k metal on the ground.
  4. HP increase. It now takes 20% more damage to stop the com, which means more time to dgun priority targets and potentially survive any engagement.

Even if tower damage does not happen directly in a comdrop situation, or even if a commander is not nearby, or even if there's not an army to face the commander - the fact that the dropping player knows that none of those things will be a strong impediment to the drop means that the play will happen much more often and have a considerably higher success rate.

Several people have already posted replays demonstrating this reality really clearly, you are just continually denying them because one of the above factors wasn't directly in play, ignoring the fact that the change in those potential factors made the drop much more favorable.

primal holly
#

comdrop - when you build transport and fly to enemy base
com diving - when you just walk to enemy base

imo com diving are practically impossible if enemy actually tries to stop you mb on smth like supreme where you start like 10 feet away from enemy bases but on any map where you start reasonable distance from one another opponent should have units already

people just very used to completely stopping one of the strongest early game units with 90 metal investment

can't say anything about comdrops i still yet to encounter one and as i heard all replays in this thread are people just doing nothing vs comm being dropped

sharp cosmos
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i think it's also downplayed how much more important it's now for back players to walk to front

wanton oak
pseudo widget
faint hinge
#

I mean, the commander can laser down another one sure. Problem is, as someone dropping in. I could not care less. Laser damage is way too piddly, I'll get your whole base and probably walk into the next one before you've killed me.

fathom trail
#

what if you re-reduce com health and increase com laser damage. roughly equivalent combat survivability but com duels can end very fast

serene basin
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Explosion radius change, good. The dgun change dosent make sense. Some people do, some people dont. Seems like a change around a minimal scouting playstyle. If you keep tabs on the com its not a problem. I always enjoyed the maybe they will maybe they wont moments.

wanton oak
rigid latch
#

If the buildings weren't dgunned, ask team for rezbots, eat comm wrecks and resurrect buildings

This is a thing you would not observe in small games

In 2v2 it probably spells death for your team

In 8v8 team can hold while you rebuild

This would actually be harder to come back from for the defender with the comm update since smaller and weaker explosion means more focus is on the dgun, which does not leave wrecks