#Commander Update

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

timid girder
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All units in. Bar lose relevancy in some way commanders shouldn’t be an exception to that

digital orchid
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I think the core of why people are trying to make the com releveant, is also that in team games they are a bit disposable

timid girder
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I personally think commanders are fine as is right now

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So you have my bias there

tawny sapphire
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Old name for T2 mexes. I've been around for quite a while.

plain lily
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Making the comm more relevant isn’t really one of the goals of this patch I think. More I see a change to some design goals being the priority, namely getting rid of the “special” rule for last comm vs last comm dgun interactions

timid girder
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The special rule is being replaced with a special rule

west marten
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Adjusting com wreck metal value to balance nukes would be the worst way to go about it. Also this update only delays a nuke with ~30 seconds. At the same time anti-nuke from com blowing defenders is also delayed.

digital orchid
plain lily
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The rest of the patch is either in service of that goal to balance it or addressing smaller design goals, like getting rid of many special damage cases

timid girder
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It’s just change the end result of the interaction

digital orchid
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I wont see newbs killing each other in seconds anymore

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cuz they didnt know that d gunning coms kills both

tawny sapphire
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I would do it on purpose because I felt bullied.

west marten
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I wouldn't mind the carry meta getting nerfed. Or at least more easier countered.

digital orchid
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which is understandable why they would think d gun would kill the enemy com

timid girder
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A player not knowing something is perfectly fine

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We do not have tutorials in game

tawny sapphire
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Comm on the frontline? Dgun time!

timid girder
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At all

digital orchid
timid girder
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I don’t see it as unintuitive at all

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I see this as being worse as it removes dgun risk

tawny sapphire
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dgun not killing a comm is extremely unintuitive

digital orchid
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it prob is very confusing for a new player to see a com surivive sometimes and sometimes not

timid girder
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It does not care about 1v1

tawny sapphire
timid girder
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People make the mistake of thinking it applies only to 1v1

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That’s rather easy to do as it’s not well explained ingame

digital orchid
plain lily
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Even in chess draws are frequently played for in order to finagle points i a tourney

tawny sapphire
digital orchid
plain lily
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We could just get rid of commanders altogether but I think that would make the game a lot less fun.

tawny sapphire
plain lily
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We could also replace dgun with another weapon but I don’t really like that either (as it was in unbacom)

digital orchid
digital orchid
timid girder
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I do find removing stuff because it is not explained/poorly explained to be a bad excuse to remove things

digital orchid
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Ye, removing should always be last resort with old mechanics

timid girder
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Bar has a ton of hidden stuff
That isn’t even explained

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That is far more impactful

tawny sapphire
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If I had the option to personally choose a NOTA-style command tower over a mobile commander I would choose it every time.

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Assuming it was remotely competitive with the mobile commander, of course.

digital orchid
plain lily
timid girder
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Commanders are just very public

digital orchid
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idk what nota is tbh

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so

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lol

tawny sapphire
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It'd just have to be competitive, by having coverage over the whole base for both construction and defense.

late imp
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im not reading all of that

digital orchid
late imp
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over 2000 comments in a few days lol

digital orchid
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I do understand you tho lol

plain lily
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there's a "base builder" turret in raptors that's like that.. I'm not totally against the idea of getting rid of the commander from a game play perspective but I think it's pretty central to the game's identity so I don't expect it would be a way people want the design to go in general.

tawny sapphire
digital orchid
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Since most of them seem balanced about the com

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and have units for the use of com, llts for example

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static command turret would need each own units and buildings to compete with a com faction

feral panther
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game without commander would be popo

digital orchid
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But until we get a new faction after legion, it will take ages anyway

wanton oak
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phrasing

digital orchid
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He meant what he said

wanton oak
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the thing is that they're all tied together and any of these changes individually would destablize the careful balance
they only make sense as a package

tawny sapphire
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Can't always change only one thing at a time in interconnected systems.

strange roost
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Alright, it takes 4070 metal to get your first adv mex (t2 fac + t2 con + t2 mex), which gives +6, meaning the first +6 takes 11 minutes to pay off (IE 113 metal/+metal/second, an acceleration vector), each additional, only costing the 620 of the mex, takes 2 minutes (17 metal/sec/+metal) to pay itself off and become profitable.

With a live commander and passive income, he's worth 2 metal/sec
A corpse, worth 1250, is good for 11 metal/sec if popped before a T2 fac, and worth 12 metal/sec after the T2 con is out

Call it 12 m/s either way- a constant value. So if you expect the game to go X minutes, you want to pop and harvest your commander at X/6 mins (ie, a 42 minute game you'd want to pop at 7 mins) IF you are going full eco (no units at all) and you get your energy for free like from overflow or something, and you have infinite build power, which would push to later ideal pop. This also assumes the game ends the instant you get an advantage which, lol (as income after "winning" doesn't count), which means a 40 minute game might only count for 30 minutes in this calculation, meaning an earlier pop

sharing m/s with units dilutes the value of the commander's metal/metal/second/second contribution relative to how your economy is split-- the above assumes 100% eco, 0% units, meaning you would want to detonate later and later as your economy balances more towards units.

Conclusion: if you are T2 rushing as hard as you possibly can, it is still hard to justify popping your commander at all, UNLESS you plan to close out the game in a timing attack, such as a nuke strike: in which case your mental calculation should be (how long will it take me to win with this / 6 mins) IFF you can spend 100% resources without overflowing- remember reclaim time & build power, ect!

digital orchid
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This guy maths

strange roost
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that's also assuming 2.0 mexs which is on the higher end, ish. you get more m/m/s/s with bigger metal spots and less with less VERY quickly

molten raven
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Just going to point out that you aren't considering the fact that backlines will almost always reclaim the t2 lab to fund theur mexes and 1st fusion

strange roost
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ah, true I did leave that out

molten raven
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As such, the cost of the first mex just needs an investment

strange roost
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in which case the T2 labs would have their own m/m/s/s value

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I've done my math for the day, I'm outta here 😛

edit: okay fine if you pop comm to build T2 then reclaim the lab, it's worth 16.25 m/m/s/s, meaning you'd want your calc to be (time to get to winning position / 8min), which is much better for Mr Pure Eco

velvet sage
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It's all not really relevant, calculating the abstract worth of things

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You need to try out actual builds

strange roost
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it is, but you also have to count all the variables (as there are multitudes) and they vary per map

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but you do need to try builds to make sure you can spend 100% of what you theoretically make

velvet sage
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Usually ppl compare timings for getting stuff off 3 mexes on dsd

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As its a simple scenario and youll rarely ever have less m than that

strange roost
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yea, good to have a benchmark

velvet sage
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And in practice, teching to reach whatever goal you want, self-D or non-self-D tech timings are close to identical w 1250m wreck

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If you have more m, then the build without self-D gains in comparison to a build with self-D

west marten
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The commander also has 25 energy income, at an exchange rate of 58 that's than an addition 0.43 m/s for a total of 2.43 metal per second in total.

strange roost
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T1 e convs are 70:1 convert, meaning 25 energy is 0.36 m/s

molten raven
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that's a pretty inefficient conversion though

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i wouldn't do a direct conversion to metal as efficient use of metal means it has a higher value

strange roost
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we're talking energy

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but yea

molten raven
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especially not for small numbers like this

velvet sage
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Both converters are abt equally effective when you factor in cost of converter

molten raven
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because in the early game that energy will be used as energy most of the time and not converted to metal

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i guess you could convert it to metal later on, but that would mostly be with t2 converters

molten raven
west marten
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Unless it's a high wind map, in which case energy is worth less.

velvet sage
gusty thunder
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But the cost of a t2 conv is like 500M so at best you get 1 Adv solar or 3ish Solars, but a big E bump isn't there, get a t2 conv and useing the new M income (10/s) to boost eco and unit production (depending on what position your playing) is way more productive then staying t1 conv

molten raven
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t2 converters are also way more space efficient

gusty thunder
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I don't care about space as most maps are generous with the build area but some maps definitely benifit from a more compact base design

molten raven
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on a lot of maps space tends to get a bit tight for backliners

gusty thunder
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Ya but by that point it's either nut up or shut up time, if back line is fighting for space then they need to make more units and stop playing simcity

west marten
gusty thunder
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Imo back line should go fus because them stalling isnt the end of the world, front likely should go conv because the increase in M can help beef up front line with more units at a quicker pace.

velvet sage
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Maybe this isn't the thread for newbie eco tips tho

rain crater
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gradually increasing passive income, e.g. as every 5 mins of game time the com's income increases by +1m/+10e, rewarding players for still having their commander alive 40 mins into that 8v8 game

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that suggestion is pretty good

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I said something about decreasing com wreck further and buffing com eco

gusty thunder
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This who thread is an off topic mess lol just the nature of the game so many different factors and play styles

rain crater
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but doing it gradually is pretty nice

molten raven
digital orchid
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The idea was mostly rejected due to scaling issues

gusty thunder
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Plus anyone who losses they comm will be behind the entire game, and while the Comm changes do support a more aggressive play style with com you shouldn't be punished eco wise for miss handling a combat/BP unit

rain crater
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in a lot of games if your lose your com you are out

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so being behind for losing your com is not even a huge punishment

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also that change would incentivize people to rez coms instead of just sucking them

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but rezzing takes more time and preparation, so you still have to make a choice to take the risk

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of either rezzing and getting the com's eco or just sucking it at that moment because you have no time

velvet sage
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Giving commanders more eco also encourages going for comm snipes more

sinful garnet
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One thing I need to better test is the death explosion changes.
I will frequently park my commander in a chokepoint, just to blow up on groups of marauders or tanks. Often, I'll rez the commander just in time to blow up on another attacking blob.

velvet sage
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An important thing to note about the commander explosion is that it does 4x more damage to units than it does to commanders

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@wanton oak if you had to remove the hidden damage modifier there, would you rather have the vs commander or vs everything else damage become the default?

wanton oak
velvet sage
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Maybe we should drop preconceptions abt what kind of damage the explosion should do. I guess the damage it does to another commander is the most crucial part, for duels in a teamgame

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But to other units, who's to say the explosion must do this or that damage? It's not something that should break the game if it doesn't do this or that exactly

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Definitely there should be an explosion imo, it looks lame in ZK when the comm just dies unceremoniously

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But it doesn't need to be huge in damage. Also makes commander more possible to keep in armies in later game, id it's not a constant threat of blowing up your expensive units if it dies

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For the comm vs comm action, we don't yet know where to balance that, exactly how easy or hard anybody wants it to be to take the other comm with you

tawny sapphire
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Personally, I would like itf we could dump the "three mexes per start location" map design.

molten raven
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many maps have more or less

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2 mex starts aren't uncommon

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and some maps have 4+ mex starts

sturdy fjord
hushed beacon
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Hrm, was a bit surprised about the discussion about the commander. I guess people see a lot of newbies rush com and d-gun each other and don't like that?
I was also surprised you can't do a kidnap enemy commander, you can't even try it, the command just doesn't work.
As an old TA player I feel there were some basics you had to learn as a beginner: avoid being kidnapped was one of them. Once you have it, it's easy actually.

I have played numerous games where both players are moving their commander forward meeting in the middle: I really enjoyed the tension of knowing there is such a powerful unit nearby that could potentially destroy your stuff. What I would see in more seasoned players is that they would try to take out the enemy command any way they can, while keeping their own commander safe. Or when that didn't work they would try to rush with their command, and usually lose. One thing that would happen was setting up a pop up cannon and radar target the commander, who would micro building buildings in front of them like metal storage because it was high and could stop the plasma. Sadly this is not an option in this game.

I really enjoyed all that strategy.
I would say that for a good player getting rushed, bombed (maybe a bit less) and attempted kidnap are not big deals if you know what you are doing.

Just having a control tower would lose a bit of the nostalgia for me.
I do agree that losing the commander a bit later in the game doesn't feel like a big deal, even with the 300 build speed. I mainly park it near a plant or bot while building and don't do much else with it.

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Also in late game the commander would give you that brief respite from incoming heavy units, like juggernauths (usually killing the commander, but at least you had some breathing room and could try to get your defenses in order).
With just a control tower you lose this mechanic.
I do feel the command is quite slow and once you are out there hitting units it's quite hard to get away, even with cloak, so usually it's a suicide mission

cunning pagoda
magic siren
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Wouldn't giving the commander experience gains but not as insane as inbacom help to scale the commander into being a more reasonable mid to late game unit depending on if you're skilled enough to use it in combat or not?

mortal saffron
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make the commander like the SupCom commander. Very tanky. I like that really need to overwhelm the commander in SupCom. In BAR, 8 light bots can easily down a commander with "average" micro.

tawny sapphire
molten raven
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DSDR is the perfect example of a map that breaks this norm

tawny sapphire
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I should have explained my thinking, though. It was in refence to commander metal production. Giving him more personal production would increase map design flexibility a bit. I'm not sure this is a good idea, just thinking out loud.

tawny sapphire
# hushed beacon Hrm, was a bit surprised about the discussion about the commander. I guess peopl...

I have played numerous games where both players are moving their commander forward meeting in the middle: I really enjoyed the tension of knowing there is such a powerful unit nearby that could potentially destroy your stuff. What I would see in more seasoned players is that they would try to take out the enemy command any way they can, while keeping their own commander safe. Or when that didn't work they would try to rush with their command, and usually lose. One thing that would happen was setting up a pop up cannon and radar target the commander, who would micro building buildings in front of them like metal storage because it was high and could stop the plasma. Sadly this is not an option in this game.
This is one of those things it's impossible to agree on because it's a matter of preference. I personally do not like having the commander be a frontliner and wish I had another option.

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And this is Raghna's dilemma: how could he even hope to satisfy both you and me?

hushed beacon
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I don't know. just stating my opinion from the past. You don't need to have your commander as a frontliner, and from what I've seen in games, the commander makes very little impact in the fight itself, usually goes down without doing a lot of damage. I'm just curious what sparked this discussion, if there are really big cons to the current implementation

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I think he's just too slow (walking) and doesn't have enough armor to get out of trouble. usually it's bye bye

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maybe there could be an option like you have now modifiers for LLT damage and com damage etc, that you can enable before a game

tawny sapphire
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Personally I think Raghna is on the right track for what Raghna wants. But what he wants and what I want aren't necessarily the same thing. And I'm quite firmly in the minority here, so catering to me wouldn't even be a good idea.

upper needle
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Well placed combombs can also wipe out thousands of metal worth of army or defense and in the most lucrative scenario give 4k metal to the person who initiated the combomb

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Early game frontline dynamics revolve around the commander

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The changes make it so combombs aren't as destructive

magic siren
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We played a ton of games today with the update on, do you guys want some feedback or the replays?

wanton oak
rough lynx
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I have thought about these changes and observed as much as I could in what little time there was for such drastic alterations. I am aware that some people may have put a lot of effort into this and may take my criticism it as a personal offence. It is not. Questions arise like:

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How certain is it that this will be implemented after one week?

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How many games have been played with this to set a solid decision making?

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Will it be a mod option like unba coms?

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Is this official or just a mod?

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My conclusions:
Increase in commander health with removal of only certain damage modifiers feels arbitrary. T1 modifiers are removed but t2 and t3 modifiers remain.
Sniping a com with units is more difficult now. Damaging a com and then lasering seems boring. You have to mirror your enemies commander movement to always be near which reduces your strategic options. Staying in base makes only makes sense to stop comdrops. However a beefed up com is way more difficult to stop now without own com.

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The comblast reduction dgun immunity means you can never combomb an enemy com. The tiny distance that allow it is negligible. It takes way longer to stop a commander. He doesn’t need to explode, can just dgun an base and might be self destructing in base number 2 by the time your own commander catches up. The change encourages comdrops. The low com metal is just a too little loss to compensate. Again there are fewer strategic options as your commander will be less helpful dealing with clumps of units in particular in later stages of the game. You need to pay less attention to the most important unit in the game.

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Dgun immunity is a special case that confuses me as it adds a new damage modifier. Every other unit may be one shot but not the commander.

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Regeneration won’t affect the meta as you’ll always have cons, nanos or rezzers prepared to support your Rambo actions.

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Reduced metal wreck value means that it’s less of a punishment to comdrop or comwalk. It literally makes the com less valuable.

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It rewards the defensive player who stays within his own defences to wait and pounce on an attacking and lower health commander. You are rewarded the metal and your commander lives.
Using units to kill the commander is disincentivised as you may not even make your metal back killing it. This leaves you in a weird spot where commanders face each other in a show off but units avoid the commander.

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There have been no major calls to changes concerning the commander after the influx of new players. I am quite sceptical considering the way Unba coms was balanced and how all of this was already discussed a few months ago.

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My suggestion would be to at least extend the period of one week.

sturdy fjord
# rough lynx My conclusions: Increase in commander health with removal of only certain damage...

In response to:

Increase in commander health with removal of only certain damage modifiers feels arbitrary. T1 modifiers are removed but t2 and t3 modifiers remain.
The logic here - t2/3 modifiers are there for an entirely different purpose to t1: t2/3 modifiers are there to make sure nothing one-shots the commander, as per a design decision made back in OTA (Chris Taylor actually mentioned this during the tournament)

Raghna's argument, I believe, is that his other changes remove the original reason for the damage modifiers on t1 (designed to stop combombing) and that therefore it doesn't make sense to keep them. If I misunderstand, please correct me.

that is to say, it's not entirely arbitrary

rough lynx
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My point exactly. Damage modifiers are there for a good reason. Cleaning them up sounds good but doesn’t always make sense

velvet sage
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I never thought the t1 turret damage vs comm was about combombing

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it helps vs that too, but it's not the only reason it makes sense for commanders to be penalised for trying to rampage through defence lines

zinc shadow
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I think the LLT special damage vs coms was probably the most sensible one out of everything, and if we're getting rid of it then to me it makes sense to get rid of all special com damage

velvet sage
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all the short-range t1 turrets should do standardised damage vs commander, now its all over the place

rough lynx
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I mean if claws have different modifiers within even their own grouping that could be simplified

velvet sage
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if every t1 turret, excluding the plasma cannons, would do 2x damage to comm, thats easy to understand and remember

zinc shadow
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I said this before but I think that if we did want to keep the concept of special damage then I'd rather it be categorised based on weapon type. e.g. coms weak to lightning

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rather than on a unit-by-unit basis

velvet sage
zinc shadow
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it's less random than current

rough lynx
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That would mean welders and jaguars do extra damage to coms

zinc shadow
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and would also imply better classification of weapon types

velvet sage
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t1 turrets are a group of units that make for good gameplay effect to have extra dmg vs comm

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lightning weapon units are not

zinc shadow
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just an example

velvet sage
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what is the point of that example

zinc shadow
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that units that have special interactions should be visibly different

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you could, for example, classify lasers based on their colour, and say something like red lasers = good vs light units, purple lasers = good vs medium units, green lasers = good vs heavy units. and then LLTs shoot red lasers as normal, but then when they're targeting a com the laser changes to green to make the special interaction obvious

rough lynx
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Why not instead have the com glow red when hit by t1 turret

zinc shadow
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yeah that could work too

rough lynx
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Sparks flying

velvet sage
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but first, we need to decide, do we like the game flow better when t1 turrets are strong vs commanders? or is them being weak vs comm more interesting?

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how to communicate the dmg to the player is downstream from that

zinc shadow
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I've seen/played a dozen or so games (mostly 8v8) with the new com rules and tbh it's hard to say. I think it's hard to get good sample data when most people are still playing as if nothing changed - needs people who really understand the changes to try and abuse them as much as possible

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I've seen a few failed com drops

rough lynx
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As all of the changes are linked we need to discuss them as such

zinc shadow
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I saw MomsBoyToy really abusing the removal of llt special dmg - was quite cool, but again not sure if it's good sample data when opponent didn't really know how to play against it at all

velvet sage
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i dont have a strong opinion on how strong comdrops are (both before and after the patch really)

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its also about what the rest of the team plays to make the most of it too

zinc shadow
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I'd be curious to try out a change where com hp is reverted back to ~3k but doesn't take flanking bonus damage instead

velvet sage
zinc shadow
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the same way flanking bonus is currently communicated

velvet sage
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so not at all ?

digital orchid
zinc shadow
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yeah

digital orchid
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But true its hard to tell

velvet sage
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but outside comdrops, llts or other turrets not being a deterrent to commanders is a big deal overall - both in rushes where you rush the other guys base by walking, and in frontline situations, especially where only 1 side has their comm in a location

digital orchid
# velvet sage so not at all ?

Maybe showing sparks and more the more flanking dmg you do could be a solution, the com being immune to flaking dmg I dont like personally tho

zinc shadow
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I'd be interested to know @wanton oak's motivation for com hp buff in more depth

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because afaik the original complaint was that it's too weak to swarms of cheap units

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but imo that's more to do with flank damage than total com hp

velvet sage
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well thats how damage works in this game

zinc shadow
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dying to 20 ticks, but not to 3 llts and 2 beamers

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it wouldn't be so bad if coms weren't more or less the slowest unit in the game

faint warren
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Definitely need a longer period of data. 2 weeks and then we can use the replays before vs during to assess

sinful garnet
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Yup, can always set flankingBonusMode = 0 in the commander unitdef (and not override it in the _post files), to turn off flanking bonus damage to commander.

wanton oak
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sorry, pressed enter before finishing

wanton oak
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Thanks for taking the time to test and try the update and then to come here and write your findings, I really do appreciate it

This is a direction the game design team wants to take to resolve some real concerns w how the commander fits in the game.
Changes to the commander are nothing new and is in fact the single most changed unit for obvious reasons.

It is only linked to unba in the sense that I am involved and that it was used as a way to address some of these issues.
The open test with modoption now is to broaden the amount of games played and players involved, with ultimately the goal to find the best possible solution to implement without modoption.

You do raise some valid concerns, especially with the comdrops, I, and the vast majority of players would absolutely not want comdroping to be made more common because it being easier or w increased risk/reward.

I do hope however that I rightfully assessed that the changes actually make comdrops worse. I'm very open to be proven wrong and I welcome anyone sending me replays. What I've seen so far has only agreed with my previous assessment.

The dgun immunity is indeed a new special case, but it is much much simpler than the previous special case it replaces. Other suggestions that take into account every commander interaction are welcome.

In my experience the regeneration nerf had a larger impact on compushes than the increased HP, especially since extra resources to invest in buildpower to slowly repair your commander seem to be more usefully spent elsewhere in the early game.

Cheap pawns and grunts are lost against the commander exploding, but not many more are needed to take him out and many skirmishing units can now survive the comblast making it often more economical to take an enemy commander down than it was before.

I am quite sceptical considering the way Unba coms was balanced
in what way that is similar to this change?

I do believe there's a few numbers to tweak

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I just haven't seen the concerns you've brought up ingame yet.
Again, I'd be happy to see some replays that examplify what you write.

wanton oak
wanton oak
rough lynx
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It all feels as if the matter has already been decided upon

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I would ask for a mod option to retain the current balance

zinc shadow
wanton oak
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unfortunately to not get 1 shot by anything com needs 12k HP :/

zinc shadow
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is not getting 1 shot by t2/t3 stuffs an important requirement?

wanton oak
# rough lynx It all feels as if the matter has already been decided upon

It's not, that's why this discussion is here, and even if implemented it's something to keep an eye on and possibly adjust/change/revert if it doesn't lead to a better game

what has been decided on is to try the changes wholeheartedly to get the necessary info to make an informed decision and then reconvene and make an assessment

wanton oak
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(and if you ask me, making commanders stronger over the duration of the game solves that, but I also understand that a lot of players don't like the hero-mechanic in an RTS)

zinc shadow
wanton oak
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quite a few

zinc shadow
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I wouldn't imagine it's too many?

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o rly

sinful garnet
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corsktl

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nukes

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liche

molten raven
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Pulsar?

sinful garnet
wanton oak
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juggernaut

sinful garnet
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armbanth blue laser

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advenergystorageSelfd

zinc shadow
sinful garnet
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advgeo explosions

wanton oak
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and there's quite a few that have reduced damage to not 2 shot commander like t2 missile veh etc which imho is.... idk

molten raven
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I would argue that it's fine if t2 statics can one shot com because if your com walks in range of a pulsar that's kind of on you

sinful garnet
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armsnipe does 1025 instead of 2500 to commanders
So it a squad of 4 instakills a commander, instead of 2

wanton oak
#

but yeah, that's def not a hill I'm willing to die on

sinful garnet
#

TIL that the cerberus geo does x2 damage to commanders

modern oyster
#

😮

tawny sapphire
modern oyster
tawny sapphire
#

And the changes did not change that hero unit status in either direction, really.

sinful garnet
#

A surprising amount of self-d explosions would 1-shot a commander.

#

If I had to put a theme on the anti-one-shot special damages, they seem to be set so at least 4 T2 attacks (snipers, ambassador missiles, etc) are needed to kill a commander, and at least 2 T3 attacks (blue lasers of doom) are needed to kill a commander.

tawny sapphire
#

You could give the commander a small, expensive bubble shield that blocks anything but recharges very slowly. Would tie survivability to economy? I kind of like the idea of the commander packing all his faction’s fancy tech, just not having the energy to run it without a large base.

#

If we’re gonna have a commander, then there’s stuff we could do. 🙂

wanton oak
#

was an idea that came up, is again a new mechanic that is rather not introduced to keep the amount of special mechanics to a minimum

primal holly
#

is there write up on what you want commander to be?

sinful garnet
#

There have been suggestions in the past to give the commander some kind of "shield" that activates when first hit at 100% HP and prevents the commander from dropping below 1 HP for X seconds, to give some reason a commander can survive a nuke to the forehead, but as Raghna said, that would be another new mechanic

tawny sapphire
#

Doesn’t change Raghna’s criticism of it though.

undone adder
#

With the WIP Legion faction having unique comm mechanics, I'm almost tempted to suggest that Arm and Core comms start to be differentiated slighty as well, but that's probably way beyond scope right now.

magic siren
#

The first thing is only tangentially related; but trying to convey to people that x or y setting is on is a nightmare. Sometimes the lobby name bugs out, but often people just don't read that, lobby chat, or the modifiers. I end up in situations where people try to dgun commander, and I just end up walking back because I don't want to take advantage of their ignorance.

@gusty thunder @shy gorge @cunning summit @karmic osprey and @frosty geyser were also in our games and can provide their own feedback if they like.

Personally, I enjoyed the commander updates - I felt much more comfortable skirmishing and pushing against other light troops, like somewhere between a centurion and a razorback. It made llt's feel significantly less impossible to push into in the early game, especially if you're behind or in a lane that has less metal than it's opponent (Like on atg). Giving that metal is still a risk of course, but it feels like a much more reasonable risk to take instead of just suicide or turtle.

I definitely felt the reduction in HP gen, people might say that is a moot point to change but in the very early game and on particularly rough fronts, you probably won't have that build power there to keep him topped off, and that is significant.

dgun immunity feels a little wonky - maybe you could add impulse to the dgun so that even though it 1 hits everything else - it still has a use in com vs com fights.
I didn't see if it does - but since it seems to be deflected off, it could be interesting if it ricochets like plasma does off of shields and can hit other things.

Reduced metal cost made teching less effective but still viable, it just takes longer. A few times I just sacked it for extra t1 units for a less risky t1 push.

I can't comment on the combomb stuff as I don't really do that.

Overall I enjoy the changes.

timid girder
#

do not increase impulse

#

to make impulse work on commanders
means that you will luanch units across the map

undone adder
#

Here's a weird idea: If part of the issue is that early comm kills are/were too valuable, what if we made the decoy commander available to build at T1? It's already pretty close to being a meme unit, since you can only really get it at the stage of the game where the comm is less impactful.

tawny sapphire
timid girder
#

impulse is applied before damge

#

and impulse is applied equally

#

regardless of where on the aoe it is done

tawny sapphire
#

I see

timid girder
#

also impulse is not a seperately defined stat
it is factored by 3 stats
the damge on the weapon
the boost factor
and the impulse factor

tawny sapphire
#

Yeah, but effectively it is a separate stat because it can be tweaked to whatever you want. I understand not wanting the slapstick of launching units into orbit though.

sinful garnet
#

Eh, pretty easy to just special case the impulse on the commander, in the same place that the commander is immune to the Dgun.

timid girder
#

btw nothing is immune to impulse even with the current defaults

#

its just a question of how much mass vs the amount of impulse applied

sinful garnet
#

...Actually, I would be curious to see Dgun apply impulse to commander.
Still leaves the problem that only the commander is good at holding back an early game commander, but if part of blodyblocking stuff is also pushing back the enemy commander with impulse Dgun, it could make defending a front line nest of LLTs a bit easier?

timid girder
#

well the issue is midposition

#

im half tempted to make that the ground and make aimposition offset
this would solve the issues of the BAR not being optimal to play at low angles

faint warren
#

Would there be a potential exploit of allied commander pushing a commander up a cliff or something? Like the mine with veh con

timid girder
#

MID postion to where impulse is appled is a factor

#

i wouldnt call taht an exploit
but then again im the biggest abuser of impulse

timid girder
#

and how strong the impulse is

faint warren
#

Obviously it depends on the amount of impulse we are talking snap

timid girder
#

right now the veh con trcik works partially because of the footprints not being explicit

#

QTFPS changes that

#

its also why bridges and tunnels are possible incoming features

#

the impulse mechanic is the most abuseable thing in BAR btw

sinful garnet
#

UnitPreDamaged can return impulseMult = 0 for all Dgun damage except on commander. (Once impulseMult is properly multiplicative across gadgets and not an override across gadgets)

timid girder
#

you need to be very careful with it

#

old dgun projectile does its damage each frame
does new dgun do the same thing?

sinful garnet
#

I think so, but the damage is so high, it is only relevant on the largest T3 units (jugg and behemoth, I think)

tawny sapphire
#

I do miss the old overwhelmingly loud dgun and also the furrow it dug in the ground.

wanton oak
hushed beacon
#

late to the party, but what triggered the 2000 metal worth for a com wreck in the first place? Not having this would also remove some of the 'pressure' on it.

#

(even though I think it's an interesting mechanic)

wanton oak
#

it used to be 10k

hushed beacon
#

I guess I'm just too old fashioned, I just played players with decency and had no real issues with all the com shenanigans

molten raven
#

that's a bit extreme

wanton oak
digital orchid
sinful garnet
#

Through the magic of Spring.AddUnitImpulse

output.gif
wanton oak
#

I'm already imagining the "getoverhere" from mortal combat 😛

sinful garnet
timid girder
#

with the commander

wanton oak
#

you're giving me ideas for minigames 😄

timid girder
#

umm

sinful garnet
# wanton oak you're giving me ideas for minigames 😄 
local XPos_dgun, YPos_dgun, ZPos_dgun = Spring.GetProjectilePosition(projectileID)    
        Spring.DeleteProjectile(projectileID)
        local XPos, YPos, ZPos = Spring.GetUnitPosition(unitID)        
        Spring.SpawnCEG("commander-spawn-explo", XPos, YPos, ZPos,0,0,0,0,0)

        x_imp = XPos - XPos_dgun
        y_imp = math.max(0,YPos - YPos_dgun)
        y_imp = 1
        z_imp = ZPos - ZPos_dgun
        mag_imp = 10/math.sqrt(x_imp*x_imp+y_imp*y_imp+z_imp*z_imp)
        --mag_imp = 1
        Spring.Echo(mag_imp,x_imp,y_imp,z_imp)
        Spring.AddUnitImpulse(unitID,mag_imp*x_imp,mag_imp*y_imp,mag_imp*z_imp)
timid girder
#

way ahead of itanthias

#

or anyone actualy

molten raven
#

com pinball

foggy vapor
#

I worry with impulse we now get to have situations where the Commander is pushed to a non-pathable spot and becomes stuck.

molten raven
#

yeet the com off a cliff

sinful garnet
timid girder
#

umm

#

dont ask why actually i just said itr

timid girder
#

which is even more fun to factor

wanton oak
sinful garnet
#

So, weirdly, I think units sent flying with impulse will not "stick" on impassible purple terrain. They will continue sliding until they are on passible terrain.

But many cliffs and terrain features have "standable ledges" that units will land on, getting stuck.
Or will stop right at the edge of purple terrain, so you have to scooch yourself out of the spot.

Does create funny scenarios of sliding commanders up hills though

timid girder
#

you should try QTFPS pathfinding in your tests

#

because we will be switching to that at some point and time

digital orchid
#

Sounds very funny

#

Arty would have a blast

molten raven
#

push com into lava

digital orchid
#

Welcome to smash coms ultimate

rancid thicket
#

Has the idea of the D gun simply passing thru the commander been floated?

#

Been trying to read the whole thread but I know I've missed big chunks.

dawn umbra
#

It likely has, but that is not the desired result as raghna wishes a commander can "guard" a tower

velvet sage
#

i think removing the special lowered damages that high damage units have vs comm wouldnt be a big deal

#

biggest impact would probably be liche sniping of commanders

#

but weve already had that in (some versions of) BA, and it while it was possible it wasnt game breaking

#

you can snipe commanders w swarm of t1 bombers too

#

the removal of the turret vs comm damages is way more disruptive

next briar
last cosmos
#

I think the com is a plenty powerful. Mad buildpower, decent early game DPS and can oneshot anything but is a bit of a glass-cannon as the game progresses. Could it be a bit tanker? Sure 700hp sounds fine but being able to take twice the LLT shots... Kinda removes the first mover advantage of getting to the middle of the map and slapping an LLT near their mex. Changing metal value hurts my inner-techer but I think that would also be healthy for the game (maybe 1500 is right). The change I'd like the most is explosion dmg reduction and drop off. The com-bomb is cheesy and lame because it can be oh so swingy, oh so early (it's a one use nuke that can net 4K metal [yes if used well, if used badly its a 2K donation]). I could even see making com's corpses not spawning if they self-d (a way to piss off techer and cheeser a like).

#

oh and if you d-gun their com, no knockback or anything, the blast just stops and they receive 500 energy. ^^

next briar
#

dgun immune to dgun absorb

wanton oak
tawny sapphire
#

Casting my vote for the dgun bouncing off because it’ll look cooler.

#

Bonus points if it can bounce more than once.

undone adder
#

bonuser points if it becomes more powerful after bouncing, leading to high-stakes games of comm tennis

magic siren
undone adder
#

pretty much what I had in mind, ye 😄

magic siren
#

What if instead of pushing him back, it did something more like root the commander in place, knock it over, stun it, or give commanders a recharging shield that blocks dguns like plasma shields do?

Just throwing various ideas out there - I like the direction it is going but I'm not satisfied with the commander being completely unhindered by the dgun.

#

Difference between root/stun in other games is that root only prevents a unit from moving, it can still fight and use abilities. Stun totally disables all movement.
I guess knocking it could be the same as root or stun depending on the direction it's taken in, but it'd actually have an animation associated with it.

digital orchid
#

Like this?

magic siren
#

I guess in summary the idea's id have to throw down are:
Root/knockdown
Stun/knockdown
Recharging Dgun shield
Impulse
or disarm (As in it disables weapons for a very short time)

Or maybe even a combination of these things.

#

lmfao

#

Yeah exactly like that

digital orchid
#

Or maybe the com just loses energy and powers down for a sec ig

#

cuz of dgun energy overload

#

I imagine stuns becoming very annoying tho with people just trying to stun the enemy com forever, but it would need testing ofc

#

Wasnt there smth similiar to a dgun in supcom? What would happen in that game when hitting an enemy com

magic siren
#

Yeah an actual decent knockdown animation might be over doing it compared to some mild impulse and a stun.

There is probably a way to balance it - but it gets more complicated from there. The stun ofc couldn't last longer than the cooldown on firing the dgun, otherwise you're just stunlocked.

Though it's not like that stuff can't happen with emp units.

#

Only jugg and thor are immune to emp right? idr if the commander also is

digital orchid
#

Com isnt

#

immune to emp

#

You could introduce the mechanic of dgun doing emp dmg to com or smth

#

like two dguns on com and its disabled for a sec or smth

magic siren
#

Oh wait - they probably are already using a shield with infinite charge that blocks the dgun since it ricochets off the same as plasma does - I think that means that for it to be immune in this context, the projectile isn't hitting the commander, which means the emp wouldn't hit the commander either.

#

I have no idea how the coding works so I don't know if there is a way it can be reworked to allow the projectile to hit the commander, but only apply the emp damage.

digital orchid
#

Same lol

magic siren
digital orchid
#

Devs prob getting a crisis everytime a new idea gets brainstormed

magic siren
#

Yes and no - a lot of problem solving is throwing shit at the wall until something sticks. It might be a headache to read through all of it but throwing out ideas, even if they are suboptimal, can lead to thought patterns that do provide a fruitful implementation or solution.

digital orchid
#

The pain and joy of opensource projects ig

foggy vapor
#

The design goal is that the player should always have control over their Commander, so anything that happens should not remove that.

digital orchid
#

I gotcha, so it can only be indeed dmg or smth if we want the dgun to do smth to the com

magic siren
digital orchid
#

I imagine there being some tomfoolery with the physics sometimes, and it feeling unfair or smth, pinball com

magic siren
#

No actual knockback so it doesn't move them back, it just lets one player move away faster.

timid girder
#

Bar does not need impulse on more weapons imo

#

It’s too easy to break in generalities

digital orchid
#

I favour the dgun shield then with recharges, or mb an energy cost

#

like, you get dgunnend, and your energy storage is gone

#

maybe even extend it to other stuff that would have killed the com or smth to not make it one hit by t3

magic siren
# timid girder It’s too easy to break in generalities

The dgun 1 shots everything else so it only matters in com v com, and if the com is walking in the direction the dgun is coming from, it'd only stop them for a split second. If someone has the energy storage and they aren't to close to opposing com, this might give them the distance to get away. I don't think it would effect that much otherwise.

timid girder
#

It wouldn’t surprise me if the one dev with the most exp with trying to abuse impulse
Which is why I don’t want to see more impulse weapons added

formal junco
#

Thoughts on making the dgun immunity twitch based? I mentioned dguning a dgun, or maybe you need to hit a button to activate the shield.

#

Always will feel wrong to my idea of the dgun, but at least make someone work for the ability to just ignore their com during a duel.

timid girder
#

I especially do not want to see impulse for things that specifically needs to work for specific units

#

Or units that are not meant to be affected by impulse like commanders

#

It is too abuseable

formal junco
#

I always though it would be cool if you could dgun an enemie's dgun to block the shot...

timid girder
#

I have hidden facts away from the public

#

For very fun and engaging reasons

sinful garnet
#

Play with the pounder enough, and you will end up with infantry in the stupidest places.

timid girder
#

Fun fact I never successfully showed off both of my unit cannons
Only one

#

Has been shown

#

Successfully

#

The first unit cannon I made exploits order of operations

#

The second abused the transport ruleset for com and an engine bug

fading swift
ripe grail
plain lily
#

With lasering being very important with comm change, was the bug about the difference in laser drop off due to weapon origin positioning ever addressed? Iirc arm comm has a winning advantage in a straight up laser battle and always wins from this slight difference/bug

plain lily
#

Unless it was actually fixed last time reported but I don’t think so.

wanton oak
# ripe grail my 2cents, or more like a nickel these days >>

Thank you zeteo.

One note, is that the dgun immunity is an edge case, but it replaces and removes a much weirder edge case which was the rule about dgunning the last enemy commander made you explode instead (and the enemy commander was immune too)

vital sedge
#

dgun immunity isnt an edge case, I think its the biggest change of this update

wanton oak
#

"Special rule" is whatis meant with it

vital sedge
#

honestly idk why everyone has trouble with the special rule, it makes sense to me, super clear and straightforward. takes 1 sentence to understand. What you lose from not being able to dgun coms is they can basically walk up with very low risk now, kinda worst part of changes imo. the decreased metal is really good tho

molten raven
#

The thing about the old special rule was that you made the mistake once

mortal saffron
#

Make it like it is in SupCom and Forged Alliance. It's working.

molten raven
#

It's simple enough to tell someone that if you and your enemy only have 1 commander on each side then trying to close the game by dgunning the enemy com makes you lose because fuck that cheesy ending

vital sedge
#

dont even need to make it once, just say, dgunning enemy commanders kills your commander. then you have the cheeky guys that think they can do some fancy shit in 1v1 and dgun the enemy com to win but gg for you, no dgun cheese

sturdy fjord
#

I'd hazard against copying any other game on anything

#

Learning from them, yes, but prolly not copying

sturdy fjord
fading swift
#

(obviosuly) I like the new dgun rule because it doesn't rely on "spooky knowledge at a distance" like how many commanders your opponent has alive (which is a variable that can change dynamically in team games, and which honestly you shouldn't even know without scouting IMO).

wanton oak
velvet sage
#

Otoh it's extremely hard to say at what distance/hp your own commander can survive the other comms explosion, with the patch

wanton oak
mortal saffron
sturdy fjord
mortal saffron
#

It's not different. Dune 2 is different. Command and conquer is different. StarCraft is different. SupCom/FA is as close as it gets aside from TA and it is in fact very close.

sturdy fjord
#

It is different. Not as different as some other things, but still different

mortal saffron
#

You having no interest in playing it is not even an argument

sturdy fjord
#

I'm not saying it's bad

#

I'm just saying that if BAR was repeatedly changed to be more similar to supcom, at some point along that line I'm pretty sure I'd lose interest in it.

#

Though admittedly it doesn't entirely answer your question

#

But let's start with saying, if you have to make it more like something, then you're already aware of differences

#

idk

#

I didn't really want to be drawn into this conversation

#

I don't care enough about my opinions atm to advocate for them

fading swift
#

I'm trying to remember, so these memories are very very fuzzy: but I'm pretty sure the overcharge (sorta equivalent of our dgun) does a bit of damage to the enemy commander, requires substantial energy compared to our dgun with a longer cooldown between shots.

#

Also iirc, their commander unit is tankier (also had upgrades, but whatevs)

digital orchid
#

I dont like the idea of the dgun being that expensive

mortal saffron
#

Ok so for starters, the dgun in SupCom could cost 1 billion energy and you couldn't draw a conclusion since you don't know how energy eco in SupCom translates to energy eco in BAR.

That said my main suggestion is:

  • make the com tanky. Right now 5 to 10 LIGHT bots can easily take out a com if unawares, unlucky or out of energy. The HP is so miniscule, imo he should at least have 5k HP. For reference, medium tanks have 1.5k and heavy tanks have 5k, that would would make him only as tanky as a single heavy tank.
  • commander gets his DPS from the dgun, the reality is that the stock laser could as well be deleted if not for the single purposes of killing scout bots LOL.
  • if the com gets buffed in HP regardless of how much, his DPS become more important (more lifetime -> more DPS).
    I'm that sense, dgun energy cost should be increased slightly (500).
  • in m opinion, main DPS should come normal weapon and not "magic skill button that is unique in the game".
    So I would suggest to double the stock laser DPS and double dgun energy cost.
    Result would be "decent commander" with a "panic button at a cost). You probably wouldn't spam dgun to fight 5 blitzes or incissors anymore and rightfully so.
    This change would improve the com gameplay while still keeping him somewhat weak compared to SupCom.

To round it off then, dgun vs commander -> flat 1000 damage. Commanders could fight each other using their normal gun.

To sun it it up.

Commander HP 5000
Dgun energy cost 1000
Dgun dmg vs com = 1000
Basic laser DPS x2

Caveat: basic laser dmg still seems low even after this buff, could be x2.5, possibly x3

Fixed commander for you

junior pilot
#

My .02c on the supcom commander talk is that I love supcom and TA/BAR and think there are some things supcom doesn better but for the game BAR is I think the one shot anythign D-gun is too iconic and should only ever one shot anything it can damage. I'm not opposed to com immunity since it can sort of make sense but having the d gun not one shot something it damages is just not in the spirit of this game imo

#

I could see maybe having it on a CD as there is precedent for CD abilities in BAR, maybe even have a t2 building that you build once and it removes the CD but honestly the com differences are one of the core pillars that seperate the more TA inspired games from SupCom and it's mods.

rough lynx
#

It clearly states on the website that the inspiration is total annihilation and not Supreme commander.

#

I would like to know when the changes are pushed after a week if the old balance can be retained by a mod option

white pecan
#

I dislike the new changes... for me its a clear downgrade, related to vanilla. I hope this update never gets fully into the game -.-

primal holly
#

explaining what and why you didn't like would help improve changes

wanton oak
# rough lynx I would like to know when the changes are pushed after a week if the old balance...

the purpose of the update is to implement it across the board and to maintain a single main gameplay, if it's assessed to indeed improve the game
while adjustments and possibly even rollbacks are possible, unfortunately not everyone can like the same thing and there are inevitably people who will be displeased with the change
I personally don't have any plans in spending time into maintaining a special modoption that reverts the changes and keeping it up to date
just like many other game modes and modoptions that exist today, I don't think anyone would prevent you from spending your time to implement a modoption that recreates the old commander

primal holly
#

hm one thing sprung in my mind, when you build stuff you often completely out of energy so Dunging becomes giant pain coz after pressing dgun you need to wait like 4-8 second for energy to stop being drained and get to 500, what if make Dgun have ammo, have 5 max ammo 1 ammo every 5 second (can keep it 1 ammo and same regen as current rof to keep it the same) or smth like that, still costs same amount of energy but you pay it before shooting (mostly to remove announce when on low energy)

wanton oak
white pecan
#

@wanton oak I think its okay to leave it alone as it is... but this changes are to heavy and total change everything... its like a terminator update and i total dislike how strong this changes are... "less is better" if all this changes are necessary why we had this old layout so long and most people are still happy how this game is. If we really need this changes now, then cutout "Removal of special damages" "Commander Immunity" and adjust Wreck Value from 2000 to 1600. BAR's biggest problems are not the commander but are the WATER Battles... total fail and bad/boring designed, instead we change something soon that is still "good as it is" and make it possible even worse.

tawny sapphire
#

My own concerns haven’t really come into fruition, so I wonder.

formal junco
#

Guys, I can think of a lot of ways we could be making a better decision on this. @wanton oak I think if you just took a step back, is this process we're doing here good? The timeline is off, like it's been over a week. The changes are big enough to warrant a lot of feedback, and I think some are still scratching our heads a bit, and feel like the decision is already made somewhat.

#

I honestly just hoped we could do better as a community.

#

We've got a great game here, maybe our first rule should be "First do no harm" just as a rule...

digital orchid
#

its not like they want to remove coms, its just some slight adjustments, just cuz its old doesnt meant its good

white pecan
#

The commander has actually a function of a Glas-Cannon... its a nice design... "already"! I dont mind some little adjusting, but this going like a EA (Electronic Arts) move... just change change change (casual style) and in few month a big downgrade, when everything implemented. Who want this?

tawny sapphire
digital orchid
#

Do you mean not being able to dgun the enemy com anymore? The com is still a glasscannon, it still has only like 800 hp more , and the regen does a giant difference

tawny sapphire
#

The fact that he won’t answer my direct questions is curious.

digital orchid
wanton oak
# formal junco Guys, I can think of a lot of ways we could be making a better decision on this....

I understand you fear this is a rushed decision out of nowhere.
I would like to reassure you that is in fact not.
It's a change that's been discussed a lot involving a lot of people and has been tested extensively over a long period of time and that will continued to be evaluated.
This part of the process is simply the part that involves the whole community. Even though it's crucial and feedback is absolutely necessary, it's also no mystery that it'd be controversial and that not everyone would be as enthousiastic. (just like there's many who would be dissapointed if no change were made)

You're right that the decision was already made to try it out. I've personally decided to take it slower than was suggested by having this week pre-testing so any immediate issues that we could've overseen could be addressed. That doesn't mean that anything is set in stone though.

You love this game which I can understand, but you seem to focus entirely on not having the game get updates, and not on the content of the updates, and I'm not sure where this is coming from other than fear.

formal junco
#

I ❤️ all the updates game has been getting...

wanton oak
formal junco
#

I'm honestly trying to take a step back, personally I think it's not so popular this update. I feel more like it makes the balanced play of the game less interesting is all. I also think it feels like decision is being dictated from up high, and that it's more subjective than objective. It would be better to have more data driven community supported decisions I think.

tawny sapphire
formal junco
#

But is BAR perfect, or like Chess (lol) no. Why haven't we heard from @granite turtle. I think he is always even minded, and I've liked every balance change to a point from him.

#

It's more like a question of "why", or the decision process. I agress with @wanton oak it's not game breaking, from the games I've observed. but it also seems to change the game more towards a "Raghna" style of play. I mean there is less risk in fronting with your com, it's more encouraged, I think that's fair.

#

Maybe one might argue that taking balance advice from your #1 player might lead to the game becomming more unbalanced. 😛

digital orchid
#

I dont think raghna made the decision on his own

wanton oak
# formal junco I'm honestly trying to take a step back, personally I think it's not so popular ...

That's odd, I've seen mostly positive feedback, especially from people who have taken the time to write more informative paragraphs.
Most of the negative comments have been with little content, such as yours, which focuses on the form rather than content.

it feels like decision is being dictated from up high
this is a free volunteer passion project game, it gets as "up high" as a group of players who put in some free time to try to give back to the game they've enjoyed for so long.

formal junco
#

I know, and we also don't want to minimize @wanton oak's work. I think he put a lot of thought into coming up with these changes as a "set". Really I want to be constructive, and I have some suggestions for a better process....

#

Like can have place to collect and organize all the commentary so far?

rough lynx
#

I’ve written a long post with remarks with most being ignored. Com interactions now mostly end in who can laser who down

#

It would be interesting to see your testing

#

But anyway it is good that the old balance can be maintained

wanton oak
formal junco
velvet sage
#

Outside that scenario it p clearly makes compushing better

formal junco
#

And I think you have the game's best interest's at heart, but I don't think that's a outlandish conclusion. I'm summarizing a lot there, but I wouldn't say that that is devoid of "content" either.

wanton oak
fluid steeple
white pecan
rough lynx
digital orchid
wanton oak
#

@velvet sage have you played with the update? have you tried compushing?
I'm surprised you're still firm about that since I've seen compushes being way more difficult with the patch and being more easily punished

formal junco
#

@wanton oak After this one week period is there anything from the original proposal that you think may not be correct now after the testing?

white pecan
wanton oak
digital orchid
velvet sage
wanton oak
#

I'm also considering removing/reducing some of the special damages vs commanders that are currently nerfing high damage weapons that were meant to prevent comsniping

velvet sage
#

so are you overvaluing regen, talking only of scenarios where an opposing comm is there, or am I missing something?

wanton oak
velvet sage
#

yes

#

but after careful consideration i concluded thats not the case

wanton oak
#

the replays say something different

sinful garnet
#

Old autoheal of 5 HP/sec I think is equal to 1/2 rez bot, or 1 vech con, glued to your butt healing you.

velvet sage
#

a comm rush can end the game well before 130 seconds, counting from when first damage was taken

#

there was a match where some dude did this kind of openings vs cartouche, w good success - but you are saying it would in fact be worse now? because of regen?

formal junco
#

@wanton oak I don't know if you want to hear this, but simply a google document with some pro's / con's of each think, and like an (somewhat) exhaustive list of areas each change effects I think would really help the community organize ideas.

#

If the process doesn't look good, it kinda hurts whatever changes are made.

sinful garnet
#

Another thing with recent games running the update, it broke some Dgun behavior, made the collision volume of the fireball a bit too small in flight, so players were missing a lot of shots vs flat units like blitzes and tanks.

foggy vapor
# formal junco <@200618004650786816> I don't know if you want to hear this, but simply a google...

You mean like this?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oyb7T5FKBNlMZG_BRi-UWT-7KkorvivlU_PHZXRggBs/edit#gid=10757981

Google Docs
Special D-Gun Rule Removal

Mechanics

Scenario,BAR (current),ZK,FAF,Legion faction (experimental),BAR (proposed)
Comm vs. comm duel,• Shooting with d-gun causes shooter to lose
• Duel ends in both dying, as death explosion takes out other comm,• commanders have a chassis type; stronger chassis are slower, so there's often ...

formal junco
#

Yeah, like that...

#

Maybe pin it? 🙂

wanton oak
sinful garnet
formal junco
#

@wanton oak I wish just thinking about that match yesterday, and how your d-gun would not have been anything special if Cart's commander could have just absorbed it, I mean the near miss was so exciting because if you were slow it would have been over. 🙂

wanton oak
#

(oh and this super short game lasted for 180 seconds after first commander damage, so perhaps do try to reassess one more time)

formal junco
tawny sapphire
vital sedge
#

No because when people analyze replay all they do is hypothetical and theorycraft on what coulda happened if x

#

What matters is how people feel

#

Just do a Google forms feedback thing

sinful garnet
#

Also, double commander drops are scary now (discovered through this testing time), due to the ability for commanders to survive laser duels.
So tweaks will be needed to mitigate that

tawny sapphire
timid girder
#

i personally dont like the decrease in metal from killing comanders
it makes the whole com drop less risk to the losing team and lower reward for the winning team

formal junco
#

Just a list of comments for someone to sort though would be a start. Like a google form, for each of the 5 areas: 1) a place to list pros, 2) a place to list cons 3) a rating from 0 = BARF to 5 = BAR. 5) question about how long you've been playing.

zinc shadow
#

google forms feedback would be good idea, even if we don't necessarily abide by whatever the outcome is, it's good info to have

#

"Do you find the game is more or less fun with the recent com changes?"

timid girder
#

if you get a t1 lab killed
and lose the commander
the player only gets a 400 or so metal gain
which is rather meaningless compared to the over 1000 metal gained prior
victim player loses out of map control a fair amount

vital sedge
#

There's also a lot of thought process in the replay that you don't get to see, maybe I choose not to walk to x location because I'm trying to trick opponent or something

vital sedge
ornate aurora
#

in my opinion, it'd be good to roll the update out, wait 2 weeks, and then assess the situation, rather than "don't do it" out of caution. I'm not even particularly in favor of the changes, but the fact is that we have a very low population and number of matches played with the changes. It's good enough for initial playtesting but nothing will be better than actual data from live

sinful garnet
wanton oak
timid girder
#

that replay is very different

#

im talking about when its only 1 com dropper

timid girder
rough lynx
#

Drop outside of aa and walk in

vital sedge
#

Well they're down +2m for losing com and they give opponent team 1200m and they had a player make an airlab so they're useless for another 4 minutes

rough lynx
#

Walk to the second base and dgun

vital sedge
#

See more theorcrafing ugh

sinful garnet
tawny sapphire
sinful garnet
tawny sapphire
#

Thanks. I won't be able to watch it just yet because work, but I'll check it out.

wanton oak
#

I mean, with the old commander, if you wanted to win as low TS, all you had to do was comdrop to enemy best player and dgun them and it'd be autowin
still, nobody did this

rough lynx
#

It would be a 2k metal donation. Easily recoverable

wanton oak
#

in the above replay, the metal donation doesn't even come into consideration

rough lynx
#

If it were autowin we would be seeing only this

formal junco
wanton oak
formal junco
#

No, I meant the link. But sure, I never said it was recent, actually I know you've been thinking about this since unbacom right

vital sedge
#

It also means I have no options for stopping a commander walking up to mine

#

So if I make a forward base, they are free to walk over the llts and commander straight to lab

wanton oak
#

unbacom is something that I personally enjoy the most and adresses the glaring issues the commander has
this is a different approach that keeps true to old commanders while overcoming all of the issues it has

sinful garnet
tawny sapphire
#

I feel that in practice this update encourages aggressive use of commanders. But that was already true. What has changed is they're somewhat less fragile and the pissed-off newbie you're doing it to can't dgun you.

wanton oak
wanton oak
vital sedge
#

Why are the rules bad? I literally had 0 issues with the rules. My brother said dguns can kill literally everything in the game except other commanders. It's all you guys trying to overthink everything.

#

Took a whole 20 seconds to learn the rule

#

Keep in mind we have 0 tutorials in game

#

Every game has special rules, they are all solved with a tutorial

#

"Why can't I build more zealots?"
"WE MUST CONSTRUCT
ADDITIONAL PYLONS" "OKOK"

sinful garnet
#

...That is what the comupdate does though? Makes the Dgun kill everything except the commander?
Live game version Dgun does kill commander (and you, usually, with the death explosion), except in 1v1 circumstances (which may be unknowable in FFA games) , where instead it instantly reflects and kills you, and saves the opponent from dying from your explosion.

wanton oak
molten raven
tawny sapphire
ripe grail
# vital sedge Why are the rules bad? I literally had 0 issues with the rules. My brother said ...

Game Design is far more complex than just looking at the rules on the surface, or how easy/hard it is to learn them. In this case, the volatility of the game and metal reclaiming can quickly decide a game and then let it drag out for another 30+ minutes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these changes addresses that volatility and smooths it out so there is more play to be had

velvet sage
#

both the old and new dgun rules are functional. Game isn't broken either way, and it's not hard to explain or understand either. It's just a question of which system leads to better games

vital sedge
timid girder
#

i find the loss of being able to do
you stop now i dgun you in 2v1 plus
is a worse option
or i use my commander as a bomb to stop your push

#

to be worse IMO

velvet sage
#

the same special rule is still kinda in place, in a situation with last commanders, the first one to blow up is the one to lose even though under normal circumstance the other comm would blow up too due to being low/close enough

vital sedge
#

you could literally fix this whole confusion by just allowing the explosion to happen on the enemy commander, so visually they both die, but the one firing the dgun dies first

ripe grail
timid girder
#

i dont like the removal of risk from dguning near commanders

#

especially in the 1v1 situations

vital sedge
timid girder
#

now its just a loss of 500 energy on block

ripe grail
rough lynx
#

Before: if in an ffa or duel you dgun com you lose. In any other case dgun kills all units

vital sedge
#

if there was a damn tutorial that could explain this in 20 seconds you wouldn't need to

timid girder
sinful garnet
wanton oak
timid girder
#

just that those game mode start with one commander per team

tawny sapphire
primal holly
#

Dgun just silly thing

wanton oak
#

wow, this really seems clear and straightforward this rule

vital sedge
#

yes so complicated

wanton oak
#

except when*

vital sedge
#

its a rule to prevent cheese

rough lynx
#

I never wrote an except when

vital sedge
#

if people are trying to cheese they shouldnt be surprised if it doesnt work

wanton oak
sinful garnet
west marten
#

How about putting the changes live, and then after some time link to a survey in game.

* Much better
* Better
* Neutral 
* Worse
* Much worse```

There can then be more detailed questions about different aspects. 
I feel like this will capture the opinion of most players, and not only the ones who likes to post a lot here. 
Then it will be obvious if it well received. If you enter you rating in the survey, it can also be determined how the change is received across different rating levels.
Preferably it would be tied to your account so someone can't post multiple entries.
vital sedge
ripe grail
#

idk how feasible that is, but I like the concept on the surface

tawny sapphire
rigid latch
wanton oak
vital sedge
molten raven
#

i'm holding off on arguing anything because i think i've gotten in 1 game over the past week, and it was without the com modoption

rough lynx
#

You seem to have tested it enough raghna to justify testing it again

tawny sapphire
vital sedge
#

a lot of people with loud opinions are also pretty noob here, do we disregard them for not understanding the game?

west marten
tawny sapphire
vital sedge
#

anyways sabutai post basically sums up my opinions too, also not being able to stop an approaching com with dgun is huge.

formal junco
#

I just like the D-gun being the ultimate FU weapon. Com bombing an enemy commander is fun. Maybe they are harder to pull off now.

wanton oak
vital sedge
#

i play loads of games i dont remember the replay

#

feel free to inspect all my replays and find which one it is

sinful garnet
tawny sapphire
#

@vital sedge I've been around a long time, but I and my group of players rejected BA in favor of games that outright removed the commander.

zinc shadow
tawny sapphire
formal junco
rigid latch
#

Chad style being?

#

Just asking for the next time I commbomb, thank you

sinful garnet
#

If you see a commander walking towards you, in commander radar range, it is very possible to build an LLT, then bodyblock it. And the combined firepower of the LLT and your commander kills them before they walk through the LLT range

image.png
vital sedge
tawny sapphire
wanton oak
zinc shadow
# formal junco Really you could say that about anything fun in BAR, that being on the receiving...

maybe. although I think it's possible to have mechanics that are fun without the reason for that just being because they're more game-winning. but even if what you said were always true, combombs are that concept taken to the extreme, where a successful combomb basically wins the lane/game outright, and a failed one loses the lane/game outright. sure, that element of risk/reward can be really fun (or really not fun), but I personally don't think it's a good trade-off and somewhat demeans all the other cool ways you could potentially use to win, were combombing not the best choice

wanton oak
#

in fact, you got a commander low, and it was forced to retreat and couldn't come back later because of regen nerf

vital sedge
wanton oak
vital sedge
#

if you want your positive feedback you guys can just remove all the dissenting opinions from group, im sure the thread will look way cleaner

#

im sure you guys will push changes anyways

tawny sapphire
#

@vital sedge Incidentally, both of the games I mentioned are dead. BAR is the great survivor and where development is actually happening. Regardless of my opinion(which is in flux) of Raghna's changes, I am pleased that BAR is alive and kicking.

#

Thriving, really.

wanton oak
vital sedge
#

lots of people have written constructive feedback and you guys are policing opinions

#

yall already gonna make it default no matter what people say

faint hinge
#

I will say im really not a fan of com's dueling as is. It's hilarious at best watching the deadliest units on the battlefield use laser pointers on each other for minutes at ta time

wanton oak
#

nobody is getting silenced or repressed or anything for having the wrong opinion🤣

vital sedge
#

yes and it cool you are developing the game you enjoy, but just because you develop it doesnt mean everyone else has to enjoy what you developed

wanton oak
#

hence this post

vital sedge
#

but if you are like "your opinion is invalid because x" then you dont actually care about what others think

#

sabutai was straight up ignored

wanton oak
rancid thicket
#

Seems to me like the commander needs to be balanced in a ton of situations, early/late game, 1v1, 1vX, 8v8, as well as on frontline, in enemy base etc. Maybe the best way to improve balance is to reduce the number of scenarios the commander needs to be balanced for?

Would it be unthinkable to remove the ability to airlift commander with T1 unit? Just remove early drops and control point rushes entirely.

vital sedge
#

all the problems that com has can literally be summed up in a 20 second sentence from a tutorial man, all of these changes are so unncessary aside from com metal maybe

vital sedge
wanton oak
vital sedge
#

you watch replay and ur like "x didnt matter actually"

#

you dont know what was going on inside his head

#

you just see the player inputs

wanton oak
vital sedge
#

ok im done here just remove commanders already instead of all the foreplay

tawny sapphire
vital sedge
#

you know you could just check to see if this is even being played

#

kinda like how unbacom fell out of favor

#

maybe if folks arent voting to play with it its not something they want to play

#

go figure

rancid thicket
#

@vital sedge You are being ridiculous and muddying the waters with procedural complaints that don't exist. You're like the person in line at the grocery store complaining the staff is trying to throw you out for complaining about the long line, but you have been screaming it for 15 minutes and no one has thrown you out. Eventually you do get thrown out for making a fuss about nothing and use it as justification for your prior actions.

Currently we are at the stage of you yelling about the things not happening. For everyone's sake could we skip doing the remaining stages and revert to "actual sensible discussion".

#

Also you sure are typing a lot for someone "done here"

vital sedge
ripe grail
#

Might be a good time to cooldown, take a break. None of this discussion is useful nor does it pertain to the post

rancid thicket
#

@vital sedge deflecting to a personal attack is silly. Doubly so a completely fabricated one.

vital sedge
vital sedge
ripe grail
#

Yo, guys, not useful, turn it off or take it to dm's please

rough lynx
#

Please don’t turn this into something personal

wanton oak
rough lynx
#

Is it a test or is it final?

wanton oak
#

I believe that was answered in depth

rough lynx
#

No clear answers to be gotten from you

vital sedge
digital orchid
#

I think a playersize enough for testing is there, but I dont think the average 10 os player knows about it, which is okay

#

Lobbies with those settings exist though, I just played in one today

vital sedge
#

yeah but a 10os player feedback isnt gonna be taken into account anyways when they have one of the best players in game just theorcrafting off the replays of what could have been done differently

wanton oak
#

#1105936118907666533 message
#1105936118907666533 message
#1105936118907666533 message

just some messages where this is brought up
I guess the accusations of me ignoring were projections

rancid thicket
#

@digital orchid I did a bunch of games in a row with it enabled the other night in a mostly high TS lobby. Most of the higher TS active players seem to know about it. Even a big popup box when a game is loaded will be missed by less invested players.

ripe grail
#

I think pins would have helped for some of that important stuff - gets fairly lost with all the chat

digital orchid
digital orchid
rancid thicket
#

Ahh ok

rough lynx
ripe grail
#

Regardless of which way the com immunity goes, I feel as tho it could be made more apparent, visually

digital orchid
wanton oak
digital orchid
#

As far as I know they reused the com spawning animation

#

which is a smart tape solution though lol

tawny sapphire
rough lynx
#

It is the first time I have asked that particular question. Also considering one week has already passed I would expect a transparent decision

#

How many posts criticising combombs have there been since the influx of new players? They worry about other things more

wanton oak
rough lynx
#

Alright so we will wait on your decision

dawn umbra
wanton oak
#

I don't think number of complaints is a good measurement to use to what can and what can not be improved on

rough lynx
#

I don’t agree but that’s alright

white pecan
#

For me it looks that all changes already written in stone and we cant nothing to against it. GG

wanton oak
white pecan
#

Sorry this all is fake, there no real feedback allowed or it will just ignored... "Electronic Arts" feeling here we come.

rough lynx
#

Does one measure good will by approval or by passion for the game

digital orchid
rough lynx
#

Also different perspectives should be a given in a discussion

wanton oak
tawny sapphire
fading swift
#

for the record, I want it on in games, I think the changes look good, but I haven't turned it on because it's an optional selection: defaults matter

#

I assume 95% of players aren't aware it's there

white pecan
tawny sapphire
vital sedge
#

He literally watched my replay and concluded my opinion invalid, he doesn't care homies

sinful garnet
tawny sapphire
#

I wonder if Kobold has me on ignore or something.

wanton oak
fading swift
#

from a design point of view I think the changes are all good or moving in the right direction (which will hopefully be made more clear for any necessary adjustments post-rollout)

white pecan
#

Nah i dont have you on ignore, Cortex. Its just doesnt matter... the updates comes and everything gets ignored... no real adjustment or changes to the glorified updated will happend.

rancid thicket
#

A big red button at lobby to enable/disable, and one has to be actively selected for the lobby to launch might help. That way every game has to be actively choosing. Would raise awareness pretty fast.

tawny sapphire
fading swift
#

I've spoken about the problems it addresses in the past: magical non- universe knowledge required to understand how the dgun will work in your game at that specific point in time, apparently arbitrary special unit interactions that can't be intuited and aren't part of unit stats like the missle truck and the llt vs commander

rancid thicket
#

I think the only mistake that's been made with this update at all is not a strict rule all feedback comes with a timestamped replay and description.

fading swift
#

I've always found the self-destruct your supposed commander unit for resources on the backline thing a bit stupid, but I accept that's a bit subjective unlike some of my other points

white pecan
fading swift
#

finally there's the commander explosion with no dropoff that insta-kills other commanders (which these changes try to address)

tawny sapphire
feral panther
tawny sapphire
#

So sure he’ll hate it he’ll do anything to avoid it.

rancid thicket
#

@feral panther my point exactly. Signal to noise ratio is off the chart

feral panther
#

yeah

rough lynx
#

Enjoy com gangs lasering each other

digital orchid
# feral panther Is there any actual feed back? Maybe 4 guys had any feedback worth noting. Rest ...

I played today for like hours with the patch:
-Coms felt only slightly tankier, the regen did really matter before
-I liked that trading coms was not viable anymore with dgun, and that he was not so volatile (I could prevent the enemy placing llts with dgun)
-Idk if the shot going through the com and killing stuff is intended or good. I could kill an llt with it. I think @wanton oak wanted that the com could shield the llt
-I valued the com more in my matches
-Cant say anything about comdrops, didnt happen in my matches

fading swift
#

not only does it operate in contrast to intuition and mechanics and descriptions of all other explosions in the rest of the game: but the insta-kill with no drop off creates a win/lose condition with very little gradation in between that one-shots a commander, and for those of us playing with 300ms - 1 second lags it wouldn't surprise me if it was even more annoying in practice (but I'm not sure if that's technically true or not)

digital orchid
#

of matches with the patch

feral panther
digital orchid
wanton oak
digital orchid
#

It felt weird

rancid thicket
#

Maybe it went under the enemy commander?

digital orchid
#

Im snek and I was fighting dave there

fading swift
#

personally, I don't think sucking resources from the commander corpse or combombing should be removed as options, but I don't think it's right to say there's nothing wrong with current implementations that maybe vets just can't see because they're use to it: half of it is... to be colloquial... crazy secret-squirrel knowledge that looks like historical hacks rather than a conscious design

rough lynx
#

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zRsl4ZGa5K4

  • All it takes is one laser tower reducing enemy com to hunt down com with your own
  • 2 coms vs one basically guarantees you get the metal
YouTube
Requiem
Breaking the 8v8 Meta - Beyond All Reason 8v8 PVP Cast

In this video we have 2 8v8 casts of interesting games where a team attempts to break the 8v8 meta.
If you have a replay you would like me to cast then post it in the comments or pop me an email.

For those that don't know, BAR is a free to play, open source RTS game based on the legendary Total Annihilation. It uses the Spring engine and receiv...

▶ Play video
digital orchid
#

gonna check

wanton oak
ripe grail
#

Here's an idea, just throwing it out there, spit-balling a little

What if when targeting with the dgun, a visual shield pops up on commanders relating to a certain % of the flanking arc and deflects the shot (much like the plasma shield).

With this, people could still use dgun to kill coms, but it would be harder and take more skill from both sides, but primarily from the aggressor. If defending against a com + things like pawns that are surrounding the com (and say they are hard to dgun bc their not lined up), the shots can bounce off and potentially kill some of the pawns, becoming more of a trickshot.

I believe this would increase the skill cap of commander while making it generally harder to dgun coms

wanton oak
#
  1. walking up by yourself vs an enemy fortified position shouldn't be rewarded
image.png
#

another attempt at combombing gets pushed away

image.png
#

a lone commander going commando style vs fortified position ends badly, another good thing

image.png
rough lynx
digital orchid
wanton oak
#

"but what about rezzers, they will negate the HP regen nerf and commanders will be much stronger"
clearly not working out for this guy

image.png
rough lynx
white pecan
rough lynx
wanton oak
#

so your complaint is that commanders that are by themselves lose against commanders that are not by themselves?
but at the same time combombing is much too strong now?

rough lynx
sinful garnet
rough lynx
ripe grail
#

any feedback on my thought? #1105936118907666533 message

rough lynx
digital orchid
wanton oak
wanton oak
rough lynx
#

Are you honestly telling me lots of people are complaining that with your changes combombs are too strong? Wasn’t the point nerfing com bombs?

digital orchid
#

The concern is that you cant insta kill a com anymore while he dguns your base from what I have read

wanton oak
rough lynx
#

Show me one post about combomb being too strong

#

With your changes

zinc shadow
#

go 1v1

#

whoever wins is right

digital orchid
#

lmao

wanton oak
# ripe grail Here's an idea, just throwing it out there, spit-balling a little What if when ...

I personally like these kind of mechanics and I think giving the commander new tools such as these can make the game really fun.
That being said, I think most people would rather not have such a huge divergence to the role the commander has and certainly prefer not introducing new mechanics for that.
You're more than welcome to try to convince people otherwise though, good luck with that 😇

digital orchid
rough lynx
#

I’d rather let logic and arguments carry the day

zinc shadow
#

logic and reasoning never did anybody any good

#

settle it the old way

digital orchid
#

Jazcash just seeking blood for the blood gods

ripe grail
#

Personally I don't see my proposal as being too divergent in the current proposal, just the idea that shots bounce off, but only from certain angles - adding skill to the equation, but also keeping it very reasonable for most gameplay

#

tho probably significantly more annoying to implement

proper rain
#

Just for the record: com gameplay was in my opinion one of the cooles and most unique parts of the game.
Seeing it being removed or heavily nerfed like this to cater new players is really sad. My opinion...

wanton oak
ripe grail
#

ah, yeah that is a good point

wanton oak
digital orchid
ripe grail
#

yeah, I've always enjoyed the idea of 1 main commander the focus of the game is on, but that can also decide to build stuff. Totally off topic tho, so I won't go into detail, just something that's been rattling in my head for a long while

wanton oak
deft totem
#

moba op

digital orchid
#

beyond all mobas

rancid thicket
#

Beyond all reason is the perfect description of the mindset of Moba players.

ripe grail
zinc shadow
#

comshooter

ripe grail
#

I suppose with such little explanation, some might say that sounds like fortnite x.x, I suppose that's fair, just with rts elements (resources/units) as the game progresses and more topdown.

digital orchid
dim sail
#

All Mobas are just Warcraft 3 in disguise

#

Six item slots, four abilities, etc.

frozen ledge
#

mf in disguise

fading swift
vital sedge
#

Anyone know the history on the dgun rule? Why do we even have it in the first place

#

If u walk into dgun range isn't that kinda ur fault

sinful garnet
vital sedge
#

So it's to prevent combombs but why?

#

If you dgun enemy com in teams, you lose the wreck anyways

sinful garnet
#

Actually mo_preventcombomb was introduced entirely for 1v1 and ffa modes, in particular to stop players from winning/drawing as a direct consequence of suiciding their com.

vital sedge
# 
The team with the highest distance (due to a delay in the explosions and deaths of all team units) will get the win.

Isn't this exactly WYSIWYG

#

Oh nvm I see

#

So does that mean you technically lose game when last unit is killed?

sinful garnet
vital sedge
ripe grail
#

isn't bug just another way of saying feature?

vital sedge
#

Also like, if an enemy is close enough to dgun me in 1v1, I am close enough to dgun him. If my opponent is that crazy that's on them

#

It seems like the intended feature was for units to become immune once com died so the death wave can kill off rest of map

#

But can't you just declare winner before that?

sinful garnet
#

So in summary, the dgun rules exists to prevent draws in 1v1 games.
Minor benefits also included stopping comdrop trolls in FFA games,
and making sure Australian players are not penalized for their higher ping (last to fire a Dgun in a duel situation)

vital sedge
sinful garnet
#

Because then the game devolves into twitchy Dgun reaction times

vital sedge
#

But like, is that devolving? I am risking a lot walking into dgun range no?

#

He can dgun me first

#

Harder to dgun while walking than it is to dgun standing still

sinful garnet
#

No, you enter Dgun range at the same time. You have advantage since you are initiating the plan. You can gamble they are doing eco in base the moment you get into range.
Ping, plus the delay based netcode, means we really do not want milisecond decision making

#

And, due to a Dgun duel basically being a 50-50, if you are losing, it is in your best interest to saunter into Dgun range and roll that 50-50 instead of finishing your doomed game.

vital sedge
#

Was this a prevailing issue in the past?

worldly aurora
#

I DO NOT WANT the comm to be more of a hero unit like in Supcom.

#

I play WC3 if I want hero focused RTS. It's a very good game.

#

You want BAR to be more like SupCom 'cause that's what you liked about that game. The honest way to argue this is "this is what I want," not "these games are the same, therefore,"

sinful garnet
worldly aurora
#

The dgun immunity makes sense. Communicate it through a good VFX/SFX and it'd be obvious and wouldn't feel like a 'special rule' in the same way that LLT bonus did. Gameplay wise its objective is as obvious as 'if you dgun the enemy comm, YOU explode for trying to trade/draw like that, nerd,' but it feels less artificial. Good-ass change.

Beyond that, it's just "what do you prefer?" Do you like the high-octane risk of comm v comm duelling where dgun means instakill? Or do you want it to be a more mellow tactical choice? There's far more granularity and context with how people will approach the 2nd choice, and I think that just creates more interesting situations.

worldly aurora
#

At a sweetspot which commanders would theoretically be fighting for, the advancing one gets hit while the retreating one doesn't with simultaneously fired dguns.

fading swift
#

That sweet spot would result in "instakill game decided based on space slow moving commander can walk in space of dgun animation", yes?

worldly aurora
#

I might've missed something.

worldly aurora
#

Leave that sorta thing to League or something

fading swift
#

Which i think technically in the real world would probably be on the order of millimetres.

#

And that's assuming you're not Australian 😛

#

(sorry, lol, not meant as a nationalist jibe, as in, we play with 300ms - 500ms lag/data round trips)

worldly aurora
#

RIP

fading swift
#

but I think on a general level, I think I'd like balance moving to the point where at least, if we're going to decide a game, we should be operating with a general minimum floor of a couple of seconds.

worldly aurora
#

Right, that being the purpose of the Comm special nuke and T2-3 resists. Agreed.

fading swift
#

Knowing that can't ever be reached universally, but just a general design choice of decisions should be made with several seconds as the floor for deciding the game...

#

which yeah, as you said, leans back into the "generally, you shouldn't be able to one-shot a commander"

#

current changes I like because at least you have to close the gap and skirmish a bit to be assured of taking out the other commander with your own and the other infrastructure and defenses can play into it.

#

whereas now it's "one pixel difference at max range, so sad"

rancid lantern
#

Explosion Damage Rework 👍 👍 👍 Reduces commbomb effectiveness
Comm Health Increase 👍 . Comms always felt a bit weak especially to flanking damage.

Commander Immunity 👎 👎 👎 Cheese comm drop strats are now very effective, with neither self+D, dgun, or LLTs being an effective defense
Reduced Wreck Value 👎👎 Higher wreck value punishes comm cheese more effectively
Removal of Special Damages 👎 Seems to complicate balancing a lot, I would leave it for now
Regeneration Cooldown 👎 Seems unnecessary

What I recommend:

Keep Comm Health Boost, maybe even take it a bit further to 5000
Keep Explosion Damage Rework, this one is really good
Drop all the other Comm changes
Increase T2 lab build points by 100-200%, this makes self+D comm for T2 a lot less effective since you lose a lot of build power, without messing with the comm balancing.

Generally speaking it's not gonna be possible to balance having a very very strong unit like a Comm only be worth 1250 metal to the wreck winner.

wanton oak
mortal saffron
rough lynx
#

Raghna how about you listen for once instead of discrediting right away

rancid lantern
wanton oak
rancid lantern
rough lynx
#

In general people play the game and judge. You will always find the odd exception

rancid lantern
rough lynx
#

Wouldn’t it be fair to apply the same kind of rigor on players approving the changes?

wanton oak
#

I've asked replays from everyone

#

I don't remember you providing with any

primal holly
#

changing com + transport interaction might be worth looking into

rough lynx
#

I provided a video which you used come to opposing insights

robust schooner
#

the Requiem casted game? 😄

wanton oak
#

A video someone had already posted before you

rough lynx
#

You just don’t trust me. I wonder why

wanton oak
#

Do you trust me ?

rough lynx
#

No

robust schooner
wanton oak
#

Well we can leave it at that then.

rancid lantern
#

Biggest thing is, comm gets to your base either by walking or drop... you can't dgun it, you can't llt, you can't self+D your comm... it's kind of unstoppable. Markivs eventually ended up bombing it with like 15 T1 bombers.

rough lynx
#

Because I think you are neither being fair nor being perfectly sincere

robust schooner
#

I'm mostly fine with new update since I think it does reduce volatility, but I think the comm explode radius should be definitely tweaked and tested + new ranges shown on widget

rancid lantern
#

Also might wanna increase T3 lab build power requirement by like 200% because the Marauder spam is getting a bit out of control.

rough lynx
#

Right now you need a small health difference and you can laser down a com and survive

rigid latch
robust schooner
#

you saw the distance it takes to chase down?

rancid lantern
robust schooner
#

rather than looking at your base for 2 sec and getting combombed

rough lynx
#

It’s even worse with 2 coms

robust schooner
#

right now after a push you get gracious space to reposition

#

isn't combombing worse with 2 coms?

rough lynx
#

No if you are being chased you lose

robust schooner
#

is it boring because you cant win lane with one cloak & go in and take 4k metal?

primal holly
robust schooner
#

since right now you have to laser for 30 sec with 2 comms to get maybe just 1250?

wanton oak
#

since you don't trust me, though I'm not sure what I have done to deserve your distrust, there's not much I can do to convince I am sincere other than be a person of my word, which I believe I am.

now if you have more concerns about my character, I kindly ask you to take them up with me personally in DM and leave this thread for discussions about the comupdate, especially tested experience, which is the entire point of me starting this thread in the first place thank you very much

robust schooner
#

that does reduce volatility for sure

#

like I dunno Sabu.. Unba was very volatile, and I bet there are things to look at with all the laser differences (core vs arm comm) & more indicators when you can combomb too

rough lynx
#

It leaves the loser in a worse position because the winner has the com and the metal

wanton oak
robust schooner
#

worse position than currently after getting combombed?

#

just setup deeper defence once you moved to front, so you'll have llts to retreat back to

#

as you give space, you'll get more support if you are losing the laser battles

rough lynx
#

In a combomb situation other factors matter like what about where’s your army or ally armies

robust schooner
#

i never liked those combomb situations as ally, do you really loved leaving your lane bc noob next to you just went kaboom

#

and now you HAVE to run because there is 4k metal there

#

now, sure the lane might be lost, and still get pushed in, but theres likely much more units saved

rough lynx
#

Well you will have to run anyway because there is an enemy com, no own com left and metal on the floor. How will the one stop that

robust schooner
rough lynx
#

Units? With combomb or with com surviving?

robust schooner
#

after unba shenanigans, I don't think the comm is that big of beast comparatively, and all the games I played with comupdate doesnt indicate to me that the loss is as big as with the comtrades. surely there is also pretty some delay in terms of healing + reclaiming your corpse, that you can use to setup some extra defences on the next spot.

wanton oak
#

hey Klu
very much like yourself, I'm not a fan of comdrops and the coinflip high risk high reward situation it creates is quite unfun to me and a lot of others
I do believe the changes actually make comdrops more difficult, I've watched your replays and I have some notes:

1.Kuchy dropped in front of a base, walked in and dgunned, nothing here was any different had it been the old com. In fact the comdrop cost Kuchy so much that he never recovered and was pretty much taken out of the game, which west eventually won

2.Screwish here could've kept a distance with Kuchy and survived, instead he went to hugging distance and died instead in the comblast. This would've meant the trade would have been a lab and some solars for a commander, considering Kuchy had nothing in his base, no lab or anything, this would be a very positive trade. It's understandable that people are still figuring out how everything works out

3.Unfortunately, here Riley has the old reaction of walking away from a combomb. Had he instead stayed by his llt's he'd be able not only defend, but take out Kuchy's commander witouth himself exploding. Kuchy walking up and dgunning the 2 llts and then walking away is also exactly the same as with old commander. In fact, since Kuchy's commander doesn't get attacked for a long time after that, the change actually worked against him, since he never got back the HP he lost due to HP regen nerf, and he later died faster than if this was with old coms. In the end, the units that ran by Riley did more damage than the commander, and a lot of this is attributed to the fact that Riley had an idle lab for most of the time up until this, and the enemy had 10+ grunts in his base while Riley hadn't even made his first unit this game yet.

I understand a lot of people perceive the changes to favour comdrops, and players like Kuchy will always try this sort of play, but the replays don't lie. An increase in players trying comdrops also does not indicate it being stronger.

image.png image.png image.png
#

@rancid lantern

rigid latch
#

^ I'd love it if this thread looked like this most of the time

rancid lantern
#

In the Koom replay, for sure this was not relevant as it was not a comm vs comm situation

wanton oak
rancid lantern
#

In the DSDR replay with old rules Screwish could just dgun Kuchy before he gets to his base, and then allies would pick up the 4K metal.

#

In the Nuclear Winter replay, Kuchy is now able to walk up and dgun 2 LLTs easily, this was not possible before

image.png
wanton oak
wanton oak
rancid lantern
#

Yes but much tighter margins on HP with the LLT bonus

wanton oak
#

in addition to the fact that had Riley not moved away with his commander, it would have completely shut down Kuchy's play, giving the defender an additional tool vs comdrops (other than running away out of fear of losing both base and commander)

rancid lantern
#

Right. I guess if you enable dgun its very similar to putting the old blast radius back.

wanton oak
#

it also protects defending commander from being dgunned

rancid lantern
#

What's the reasoning behind the 2000->1250 change?

#

Stop game being over from 1 noob donating comm?

wanton oak
# rancid lantern What's the reasoning behind the 2000->1250 change?

reduced comblast means it destroys less units/base
so it needs less metal to compensate for that

overall the changes decreases the volatility of the game
meaning that a single (mis)play or a second of looking away will be less likely to decide a whole game
this enhances strategic play over quick reactions

#

the old com interactions often meant all-or-nothing coinflip situations, this should slow things down to a point where long term decisions are more important

rancid lantern
#

Enhances long term decision making yes, but it could also encourage more people to send comms front, which would increase micro requirements.

wanton oak
rancid lantern
#

Yeah that's tough

plain lily
#

I think as part of this need to look at uw comm interaction with above water comm - they underwater laser is stronger and with lower comm blast, easy to survive lasering a comm above water. Also I think damage drop off is reduced considerably in the water which means your own comm survives a blast with more hp than it probably should

wanton oak
plain lily
#

I think this is the case I need to double check, but it looked like that during a game I played yesterday where my comm survived with a lot more HP than I was expecting.

wanton oak
#

comblast dmg, esp to commanders is something that probably needs adjusting

plain lily
wanton oak
# plain lily Here's the game of concern: https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=7334...

interesting
I guess to be sure he shouldn't have self D'd so early and kept lasering for longer but the damage does seem low
it does seem rather unpredictable how much damage the comblast will do, early in the thread someone shared an image of the differences

as mentioned before, the comblast damage, especially vs commander is something to be tweaked, especially in the direction where it's more predictable

plain lily
#

Yeah I think water does something to the dropoff too, reducing damage beyond a certain radius more than above water. Not sure on the actual game mechanics there, but "normal" comm didn't have the same problem. IMO instead of having dropoff, keep the same type of comm explosion but decrease the range overall to preserve predictability.

tawny sapphire
molten raven
#

You can tell water has some effect on AoEs when you see the damage plasma does when hitting the water rather than the unit

#

It's pretty clear (from what i remember)

wanton oak
#

there's a difference also with explosions happening at the surface of the water, and the distance to the bottom

tawny sapphire
#

Another thing you could do is make the commander much more effective at defense by giving him a weapon that can shoot over labs. Heresy, I know, but an arcing rocket would make his plodding, explosive self not a complete liability in a base.

junior pilot
rancid thicket
#

It seems like the goal of having commanders retain value as the game advanced is simply at odds with its capabilities. It's very strong early game and then becomes fairly weak until endgame. Maybe the issue centers more on incentivizing retaining the commander thru mid game for more than the hope of D gunning a titan.

#

I know there is a desire to keep the commander from being too much of a "hero unit" but maybe it's an option worth exploring. The addition of 1-2 abilities with higher energy cost might be interesting, high enough you can't just use them on 0:00 eco.

#

Give armada a 10k energy radar sweep that's the size of a T2 radar for a few seconds. Core gets a medium range laser or something. Both get a boost to 1k BP for the cost of burning energy. Just some ideas

#

Things that are basically better versions of things the commander already does and are not entirely unique, so it's not crippling to lose the com, just convenient to keep it around.

wanton oak
#

I do like the general idea of those tbh

odd garden
#

Played a bunch of 4v4's yesterday with the comupdate enabled so figured I would write down my thoughts so far, didnt read all the comments since there are so many - just a disclaimer 😛

  • There are a lot of changes at once so it's hard to judge impact of each change seperately. I feel its a bit bloated of an update? Maybe I just need to play more with it to get a better feel 😛
  • Smaller commander wreck - Losing com is already quite punishing. I feel weird about this because you still get loot from securing wreck, but the comeback potential is smaller when defender gets it. Kinda less risk, less reward? I think this is alright because killing a com when you see a chance should be semi-obvious decision, not careful weighing of how much army you will lose to comsplosion and how big a setback enemy getting wreck will be and other stuff you cant figure out in heat of moment.
  • Weaker comsplosion - Thank god, the whole my com is my pocket nuke thing was kinda silly and often a showstopper for pushes or extreme tax for not paying attention for 5 seconds. Only thing I dislike is that there is no other way to judge whether your com will survive a ''duel'', have to do it by feel is silly and there should just be clear numbers/delineations. Then again the vagueness protects against situations like oh you misstepped, now you die inevitably type stuff cuz hard to weigh own risk.
  • 4k com hp and less regen - I dunno, having to actually repair your com is an alright skillcheck I guess but more punishing for newbies I suppose. In the end its kinda needed with comsplosion changes and such.
  • Removal of special damages: Very annoying if you don't realize the update is on, but otherwise much better because you can actually use com aggressively.
  • D-gun immunity - eh fine, dgunning comms is kinda silly imo and this makes for more interesting gameplay.

These are my thoughts so far, mightve missed some stuff, happy to answer any questions in the unlikely event there are some.

wanton oak
# odd garden Played a bunch of 4v4's yesterday with the comupdate enabled so figured I would ...

I think you caught exactly the idea behind the change

kinda less risk, less reward
huge risk huge reward can be an issue in a strategy game, and toning that down somewhat was a large point for the change
it is indeed a lot, but they're all tied together and try to keep the careful balance that was in place before
should just be clear numbers/delineations
this is a very valid point and something that's being looked into atm

tawny sapphire
#

Different kind of feedback: I played a game last night that made me wish I was playing the update. Our techer got hit by a very early nuke(almost certainly because of lucrative commander self-d) and a commbomb broke our frontline.

#

After the frontline broke they just poured in.

sturdy fjord
# odd garden Played a bunch of 4v4's yesterday with the comupdate enabled so figured I would ...

I think this is alright because killing a com when you see a chance should be semi-obvious decision, not careful weighing of how much army you will lose to comsplosion and how big a setback enemy getting wreck will be and other stuff you cant figure out in heat of moment.
I just wanna say: you should already be weighing it, and most players decide to kill a com when it's not even slightly worth it.
One of the first pieces of advice I give to new players is go for the commander last – kill everything else first.

primal holly
#

idea for making comm more useful as base tender later in the game:
build power and more eco buildings in build list if t1/t2/t3 lab/con exists
can be smth as simple as +200-300 build power if any t2 lab present

odd garden
# sturdy fjord > I think this is alright because killing a com when you see a chance should be ...

Yeah I agree, but there is a lot going on all the time and it's often not feasible to make this calculation in the 3 seconds you have between deciding to kill com or not. Im a little biased (and this lines up with your advice I suppose) because the answer is almost always a clear "Nope, you will lose more than you gain from killing com"... In a game where one of the perennial objectives is to kill all commanders 😅 but in fact its just a noobtrap to do so often. Some similarish games like supcom/faf (at least when i played) rewarded comsniping too much and that didn't make for good gameplay imo, but being almost always punished heavily for it feels silly and unfun, at least to me 😛 I haven't played bar long enough yet to have a really good feel for the game but even ~150-200 games later this is one of the things that keeps biting me in the ass even when I think i'm coming out ahead 😅 maybe im just too aggressive but that kind of mindset should not punish me in a wargame imo - again just my opinions 😛

odd garden
#

Oh should probably say incase it wasn't obvious, but I do very much think that the game with comupdate is better than game without it 😛

rigid latch
#

I haven't been able to play enough for a reasonable sample size to have strong opinions, but my gut feeling is that these changes are quite okay. I'm glad you're thinking of messing with the explosion numbers, because frankly I'm going to miss the oomph 😄

proper rain
#

With such severe changes to the game mechanics, we will need to wait for weeks and months and see what new meta will be established by this.
Playing like 2 or 3 games with this while everyone is still confused does not tell anything. Same for commenting and trying to draw conclusions from random gameplay situations at the moment

thin zinc
#

TLDR 😛 when its gonna be released?

sturdy fjord
odd garden
# sturdy fjord Well, just like in chess how laser-focus on the enemy king will lose you the pie...

Sure, I get the analogy and that it's just a part of the game to play around it. But I also think it's not terribly great game/balance design to have it be like that and the postpatch version at least gives you a chance to have units survive/eke out benefits rather than take a practically guaranteed setback for completing a primary game objective ^^ I think the fact that it has to be given as advice to nearly all players that to go for the comm will disadvantage you heavily and that even with some experience it's still nearly impossible to leverage the situation to your benefit supports my opinion to an extent. Anyway its just my opinion so maybe I shouldnt press the matter and stop spamming the balance discussion 😄

sturdy fjord
#

:D

tawny sapphire
odd garden
tawny sapphire
#

I personally would like to retain the gigantic explosion. But I don’t think that’s reasonable with also forcing commander resigns. That really would cause a community revolt, I think.

plain lily
#

Where is the part of the proposal that losing commander forces resign?

tawny sapphire
plain lily
#

okay that just feels like a scary rumor to repeat xD

tawny sapphire
cold bluff
#

Where can we see the curve on commander explosion damage? Even pretty close to each other com seem to take very little damage, if you can land 1 or 2 janus shot then you can simply run to the com and finish with laser and survive the explosion without issues

rancid thicket
#

I think the doing damage then running the enemy commander down is happening because people don't know the right counter play yet. Going to do some tests when I can get on PC. I think the proper response is sending a few units in to equalize the HP, or build a body blocked tower they can't Dgun. If they try to go around your body block you have the inner angle and can maintain the block and still get build time. Also people extending their commander so this can happen in the first place.

wanton oak
cold bluff
#

Okay that's good

tawny sapphire
rancid thicket
#

Hmm I wonder if a penalty on comm death but not resign force would work. Like "rerouting command functions" and all your units are stunned for a few seconds.

tawny sapphire
#

That's a fun idea

faint hinge
#

Losing com is punishment enough in the update, don't think we need an army wide stun

west marten
rancid thicket
#

@faint hinge maybe not, I personally prefer the quantity over quality ideas approach. I might have an idea that is not good but inspires someone else to have an excellent one.

velvet sage
#

non-logarithmic graph of the damage

#

red is vs normal units, blue is vs commander

hushed yarrow
#

llts need to be able to hold back comms again

#

They are kinda useless rn

wanton oak
#

I would like honestly thank everyone who shares our passion for this game and spends their time and effort into sharing their experience and ideas all with the idea of making this the best game it can be.

The comblast being quite unpredictable was indeed a valid concern.
It's now been adjusted to a very simple linear dropoff where distance and damage has a 1:1 relation and special damage to commander was removed.
From 5000 dmg at 0 distance (literally on top of exploding commander) to 2500 at halfway and 0 at max distance.
This should make com explosions much more predictable.
I'm also looking at a widget that would clearly show if your own commander is at danger of exploding from a nearby commander with the current HP. (thank you @robust schooner for the idea)

Another issue with dgun irregularities has been fixed.

This is now live in the modoption, again, feedback, especially on the new comblast, is very welcome.

More information to follow soon.

#

As a difference, this will make comblasts overal do slightly less damage, except around max range where it does slightly more.
Against commanders though, damage is increased from what it was at all ranges.

#

Meaning small advantages against enemy commanders will still mean both commanders explode if they laser each other.

cold bluff
#

That's awesome news

median ibex
#

Since the damage is now far lower and with a linear falloff, what about increasing the blast radius a bit?

bleak steppe
#

definitely a step in the right direction.
One irks me is the dgun immunity.
its an inelegant solution.
and also the fact its gonna be that much harder to kill commanders earlier

in this sense it takes away from different playstyles

I would prefer all the benefits of these changed but also not taking away commanders being able to be fragile.

perhaps for future changes you can allow the commander to start with the same original hp and if the player desires, up grade it.
Same thing goes for dgun.
a more elegant solution would be to take away the dgun and replace it with some other similar weapon that does limited damage and then allow players to decide to invest money in upgrading it to a dgun.

molten raven
#

but devs don't want upgrades in that sense

bleak steppe
#

@deft totem why would making it harder to get to t2 prolong the game?
players stop agression to go t2, thats what prolongs the game.
if they have more time to use t1 units to achieve an advantage the game will shorten.

molten raven
bleak steppe
#

@molten ravenwell if thats true they should reconsider since its proven itself just fine in supcom

molten raven
#

but this game is not supcom and devs don't want it to be supcom

bleak steppe
#

adding com upgrades does not make it supcom