#What spoils this game [PL]&[ENG]

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

gentle scroll
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English below.

Angielski ponizej.
Jako wieloletni gracz TA (Total Anihilation) musze powedziedzieć co powinno być zrobionę w kolejności:

  1. Jednostki wskrzeszające powinny zostać usunięte.
  2. Działa np. Gauntlet powinny siać zniszczenie w jednostkach, a są bardzo słabe.
  3. LvL 3 wyłączyć do czasu zbalansowania gry na 1 i 2 poziomie.
  4. Pierwszy poziom jest zbyt słaby w porównaniu do 2 poziomu.

BAR jest dobrą grąi jest dużo fajnych ulepszeń w obsłudze gry w stosunku do TA, ale bardzo dużo jej brakuje aby wejść na poziom grywalności TA.

As a longtime TA (Total Annihilation) player, I need to know what should be done in order:

  1. Resurrection units should be removed.
  2. Cannons such as Gauntlet should wreak havoc on units, and they are very weak.
  3. LvL 3 turn off until the game is balanced on 1 and 2 levels.
  4. Level 1 is too weak compared to level 2.

BAR is a good game, and there are a lot of nice improvements to the handling of the game over TA, but it lacks a lot to reach the level of playability of TA.

merry umbra
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Let me just say that I think you should remove the "planned" tag from this post.

rigid yoke
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The game has been balanced for 20 years. It’s not OTA. If you want to know how it is balanced look at 1v1 matches

brazen tendon
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  1. TA also had ressurection units, but they were t2 kbots(so they weren't as cheap and appeared much later)
  2. I agree, more love for static defences please. But you also should know that they are much cheaper than in TA, gauntlet costs 1200 metal, while guardian costs 2100. I think one guardian would still be better than two gauntlets, but at least they are more spammable.
  3. BAR takes balance directly from BA(Balanced Annihilation), which was 3D port of TA, so it is balanced for about 20 years already
  4. Wasn't it the same in TA? Besides t1 can still be used against big t3 units to flood them(also flanking mechanic helps), so they have some uses even in late game, while in TA they became obsolete when you got fully into t2
halcyon urchin
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20 years of balance are such pointless and dumb argument, amount of time its been worked on doesn't mean anything

only thing from post i have say anything are static, making them too strong makes turtleing too easy and will slow down games significantly

pearl ivy
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balance is always in the context of maps, 80% of those 20 years was for DSD/CCR and the recent influx of maps obliterates a lot of the fine details

steel geyser
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Our 20 years of balance gives far better stability for future changes than if we just made a new game

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And there has been large balance changes during that time

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And for bar specifically

next zodiac
pearl ivy
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consider that brood war is considered perfectly balanced. but it has not seen a balance patch since 2001

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it has seen a ton of map pool changes though

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and you can try playing on some of the maps included with the 1.0 install and see how it goes

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same story with bar, except instead of static units and changing map pool you essentially had a static map pool and changing units

steel geyser
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Map design impacts bar balance a ton

dense fulcrum
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I see new players and basic complaining about rezzers a lot, but its not that easy to use them well, overall balance is fine (period), just spam too good, almost everything can be countered in time it's just frustration when new player dont know what to do

rigid yoke
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BA has been played 100.000s of times. The balance revolved around 1v1 and different maps. The foundation is high level play. So saying it’s map dependant is wrong, as it works on speedmetal, green fields and everything in between.
Bar has a slightly different balance. There are some issues like medium tanks or artillery being slightly too strong. Also before only vehicle t2 could build afus. This was simplified but it also weakened vehicles

molten isle
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How dafuq can you say balance isn't map dependant

pearl ivy
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or competitive speedmetal play in general, enough to properly explore the meta

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neither bar nor ba is "balanced" on speedmetal, IIRC it's basically optimal to do some sort of air rush, all the economy buildings except mex and wind are obsolete, basically all t1 ground is obsolete, etc

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it happens to "work out" and be "balanced" because both people ultimately have the same toolkit. but under that definition literally everything is balanced

molten isle
pearl ivy
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sure, that reinforces my point though

molten isle
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yep

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it does

pearl ivy
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but also maybe picking core on speedmetal is like picking kbots on a hilly map. even "normal" maps have better and worse factory choices

molten isle
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it will be interesting to see how much maps will change if the game evolves

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cuz there will be a standard for maps

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like in sc2 or age of empires

rustic lark
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Except for anti air. Nerf that shit emodisgusted

rigid yoke
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There doesn’t need to be a tournament if you have enough games to judge anyway.

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Thanks for proving my point by saying it is balanced on speedmetal

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Speculation about core winning more because of easier access to bonkers units is a weak argument.

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I don’t know how many times you’ve played speedmetal but arm has the faster nuke. Just saying

molten isle
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i think that you have totally different definition of balance

rigid yoke
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At least I have the experience to back it up

pearl ivy
faint sigil
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what some people miss imo is that rezzers actually impact game depth.
If rezzing is very effecient what happens is that things like speed of units, position of factories and front line micro are effected negatively and become shallower.
If you can easily rez ur units on the front line then the difference in speeds of units and how fast they can get to the front line becomes less important.
rezzers also impact front line micro by essentially becoming a more important target than offensive units while being on the back line and much harder to hit.

rezzers are also a win more unit.
If you are winning already they allow you to win even faster by sustaining a constant push as oppose to getting units to the front becoming harder for the attacker as he moves further away from his base.

and sea rezzers are true cancer as they are almost unkillable though talking about sea balance/gameplay in BAR at this point is a cheap shot.

rezzers are too useful in too many ways and rezzing in metal should be equal to the total metal worth of the unit - the metal value of the wreckage being rezzed(as oppose to 0 like it is now).

t1 plasma turrets are just under powered and have been needing a buff in the most obvious way for the last 15 years....

limber swift
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Perhaps the first time I have heard basic complaints against rezzer

robust blade
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I generally agree that rez bots can be quite imbalanced. It is definitely just a "win more" unit which is usually just not fun.

wanton star
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Rez bots need a giga nerf

faint sigil
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rzeers are win more unit, rezzers are a must have unit every game, not a choice.
just make rezzing cost metal as well so you dont simply generate free resources.

carmine fable
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rezzers are also in the same way lose less units cause often the only way to rebuild after losing your base. Also it is meant to punish the opponent for failed attacks

pearl ivy
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reclaim also punishes failed attacks though

faint sigil
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he is already punished through wreckage

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there is no need to make players even more risk averse

carmine fable
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Why is there no need? You state it like it was a fact but its only your opinion. I think there is a need

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Nerfing com gameplay, Nerfing rezzers gameplay? Whats next?

faint sigil
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why do you think there is a need?

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you want players to be afraid of taking risks?

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it was fine before rezzers were introduced

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and it will be fine is rezzers are a bit less useful than today

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and when was com gameplay nerfed?

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coim update makes com more important and more capable

carmine fable
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You didnt answer the question. Saying 'because it will be fine' is not a valid argument.
I like turn arounds in the game so the team behind has a chance for a Comeback. Would be boring imo to nerf these chances. It means the Team with the most resources just wins

faint sigil
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in most cases rezzers are used to rez front line units. you push in when u see u have advantage, u push enemy back and immidiately rez whats left so now u can push again

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there are tons of other units that can reclaim metal

carmine fable
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I guess, as basically always, it boils down to personal preferences

oak lake
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I can see both sides arguments... for me the combomb and the 4000 metal advantage that you can get from it is a far bigger problem than messing up a normal fight, because if you win that fight you invested metal into your army before and your enemy didnt... so you the reclaim can even the field.

Another thing there is that tanks are stronger but since you dont have rezzbots the bots become the opener choise most of the time. In teamgames one might go bots and one might go tanks is also a thing that i like a lot.

My suggestion would be to just add an option to add a setting called "TA classic rules" that removes rezzbots and maybe changes some numbers.... maybe remove the AFUS from the bots? But i think here we will also run into preferences and you will NEVER be able to find a version that anyone likes, because in the end it is preference and ppl somehow will yell to balances it after their needs/playstyle.

limber swift
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Rezzer costs energy to use

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Idk why ppl think it's unbalanced

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You have to have very good control of the wrecks

faint sigil
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well units cost energy to produce and they also cost metal.
Why should ressurection generate new resources?
imagine if rezzers were not in the game ever.
now i tell you, hey lets add units that can use wreckage to rebuild units.
then i ask you what do you think it should cost.
What would you asnwer?

limber swift
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The rezzers have to put the energy back into the unit but the metal is already there

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This makes sense

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Because when a robot "dies" it loses its nano shield which also was controlling it. So both factions figured out a way to restore the nanoframe

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Simple ideas really

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If the robot itself is actually destroyed, there is nothing to be done

faint sigil
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how is it already there? the wreckage is only worth a fraction of the metal worth of the unit.

halcyon urchin
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if you repair you can restore whole thing, if you scrap you will only get fraction

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year 69420 machines still didn't figure out wasteless recycling

faint sigil
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yeah you cant figure out what is physically impossible.

burnt bay
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Something being physically possible or not doesn't matter, it's a video game, and a science fiction one at that.

Plus, a core point of the gameplay is converting energy into matter, indefinitely.

I think we can excuse rezbots.

cedar bear
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You can use the laser towers to defend against units. Gauntlet is weak but it helps keep the artillery away from your lasers.

scenic pagoda