#Increase Energy Cost to Build lolcannon

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

quartz owl
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Too many games build a lolcannon before 8 afus. And it is sad to see an underpowered lolcannon not firing at its full potential, just lazily lobbing shells.

Therefore, I suggest increasing lolcannon energy cost to build.
corbuzz
61,000 m
718,000 e -> 4,200,000 e

Give it a nice 69:1 Energy to Metal Ratio 🙂

agile hinge
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Appropriately memish, I love it

hasty rapids
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I agree, the number of early lolcannons is too high imo that should only be an end game unit not a early t3 thing lol

inner cargo
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8 afus is a lot, how often does someone in a game have that before 60 minutes? Easy if you only do full eco for 30 minutes but I think your team won't be happy with you in that case

glossy oriole
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@inner cargo we literally had 2 games in a row in the high TS lobby ending with several lolcannons built

hasty rapids
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8 afus isnt a lot?

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thats like

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basic back line player eco for 40 mins or so

inner cargo
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only time i ever see 8 afus in a game is on ATG or ice scream

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stalemate games where people aren't making units

glossy oriole
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I think that may be a case of not having an actual competent techer 😛

inner cargo
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8 afus from 1 player*

glossy oriole
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yes

inner cargo
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i mean i believe you, and I also think lolcannon should be more expensive. Just the breakpoint of 8 afus sounded a little high to me

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Doesn't really bother me though cause I don't make that unit shrug

glossy oriole
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high TS lobby again, right now, DSD @ 40 mins, techer has 9 AFUs AND just completed lolcannon gg

wispy bolt
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I believe that increasing both the energy cost and firing cost will make it less easy to build and then operate it, the second one making it a final weapon and thus after you build it you’ll loose much of your power supply and consequently metal makers income

quartz owl
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People are already building the lolcannons off of 2 afus.
When that thing fires, they have zero energy income already

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But people do that because the range of lolcannons are their greatest asset.
Even if you can only fire a shot every 2 seconds due to it being unpowered by a factor of 4, that still kills backline eco

wispy bolt
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That’s why making it more expensive to shoot will make people build more afus before deciding to get lol

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That’s why the buid cost should be increased as well

agile frigate
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i support the energy cost increase

quartz owl
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The 16 second reload time of a basic LRPC is still worth it (equivalent to powering a lolcannon off of 750 e income)

agile frigate
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please make it more of a filtering trap

wispy bolt
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Another thing may be increased build time giving more time for the other team to react, get some t3 onto or sth

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Not sure how exactly is testing done but all that could be tested I guess, increased energy cost to build, increased firing cost and build time

agile frigate
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built time cost is fine

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its the energy cost that would really slow this down

mental osprey
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I think I can get behind an e cost increase, maybe it gives more time for big T3 spam to play out before ending game

sick plover
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A map like glitters you get 8 afus in the early 20 minutes?

wicked sequoia
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8 afus is a lot, how often does someone in a game have that before 60 minutes?

give me a team of competent frontliners and some clear space and I'll get you 100+ afus before 60 minutes

agile hinge
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^ he will

wicked sequoia
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I think LSR did 100 in 30 minutes, but that was an example on empty dsdr

jovial veldt
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To join afus clan you had to get 100 in 42 on a real 8v8 dsd

keen spire
quartz owl
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necroing this thread.
An alternative solution is for the lolcannon to impose a massive energy drain per second just by existing, something on the order of -18,000 E/sec.

So it zeros your energy and is unable to fire unless you have the eco to back it

coarse pike
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double metal contruction cost and see by how much it gets delayed currently a lolcannon is built at around 35mins

tame sierra
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re: thread

image0.gif
crystal thorn
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Alternative idea: don't change the lolcannon cost, but make it much more fragile. Like -90% hp. Currently if you build one, then the only way its getting destroyed is by another lolcannon, or if you completely overrun it. You can't realistically bomb it with as much hp as it has. And overruning it when its build is extremely hard because lolcannon can kill big T3 units like Jugs way faster than they can approach it.

lyric crown
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rather increase the firing cost tham building cost, so its les binary if you get one made or not

lyric crown
distant osprey
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would also be quite surprising for the player to have a cannon doing nothing but still using 18k e/s. I think no other building does that

agile frigate
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Cost to run is easier to manage

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The upfront cost of energy makes more sense to gate keep the unit from being finished

prisma vapor
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you dont need 8 afus to win with lolcannon, u can make 6 and rush the lolcannon if front has stabilized and enemy team will resign upon seeing it anyways

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its extremely dumb some games, i get my 2nd afus up as frontliner having to deal with 2-3 lanes in contested areas and the game just ends with 6 plasma shots from lolcannon killing all the metal converters

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you dont need lolcannon to be firing at full speed to kill afus or just make the enemy resign, it just needs to be in good spots and some maps are small enough that it reaches the entire enemy backline

quartz owl
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corbuzz, with a T2 mmkr economy, you need 4,256,000 energy to build it.
So with 4 afus, you can build it in 6 minutes.

The original suggestion to drastically increase the energy cost would double the time to make the cannon.

prisma vapor
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👍

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any nerf to lolcannon im happy

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u can delete it from the game and ill be ok

shrewd basalt
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I'm in favor of the nerf being to upfront energy cost partially because of the reasons already stated, but largely because a lolcannon firing at 1/4 speed or less gives me blue balls as an enjoyer of seeing big dakka

shadow summit
jovial veldt
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Why do you want games to last longer?
You’re basically saying you let the enemy build a super expensive weapon in a forward position after building 6 afus and you deserve not to lose? Imagine them investing the lol in units it would be the same outcome

cursive patio
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prolly deserve to lose, but its a feelsbadman way to lose.

coarse pike
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Actually it's much easier to build lol cannon then to try to push on t3 when game is balanced and once it's built you win 95% of the time and you can't feed metal

cursive patio
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its like a Wonder timer in Age of Empires

quartz owl
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But it is not that super expensive.
For the price of a corbuzz, you can have 2 Juggernauts
Or ~5.5 thors
Or ~3.75 flagships
Or ~4 titans

cursive patio
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but easier to get

prisma vapor
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would u rather have 5 titans or just 4 pulsars into lolcannon

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lolcannon is 100% guarenteed eco damage

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unless u fuck up the placement

quartz owl
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T1 to T2 jump is pretty big, T2 lab is ~13 T1 tanks.
T2 to gantry jump is also pretty big, ~8 banishers or bulls.
But the jump from gantry to lolcannon is small

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And if the lolcannon does not win you the game, the enemy is probably going to have built more than 18 plasma reflectors

prisma vapor
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lolcannon is just an abrupt game ender right now

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people know how to build it fast and they do it instead of making t3 if theyre in eco spot

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and its very fun to lose because enemy eco could make lolcannon faster than yours could

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t3 push is just giga risky and lesser reward

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despite requiring more skill

jovial veldt
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I say again don’t balance the game around 8v8 sausage maps. Also the unit it literally meant to end the game

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And do you count the 6 afus into the cost for 4 titans?

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You can have those before 40 minutes

prisma vapor
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t3 pushes get countered by about 10 things in the game- Spybots,Emp bombers, Strat Bombers, Atm Bombers, Pulsars, Jammer dgun, Sniper/Starlights, CertarinT3sDoNotCounterSpam, Its Slow movement speed allowing enemies to react etc

prisma vapor
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so lolcannon should be balanced around 8v8 maps

jovial veldt
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If you think only t3 and lolcannon end games you shouldn’t be talking tbh

prisma vapor
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u read something wrong

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have u played in recent dsdr games where game is slightly stabilized

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its just a lolcannon rush

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and game ends to it

crystal thorn
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Nah, listen to Sabutai, lolcannon is definitely balanced around high ts 1v1 matches pepeyep

jovial veldt
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Particularly in dsd it’s so easy to counter just get emp launcher

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But perhaps you can teach me something new

prisma vapor
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i have countered emp launchers and plasma deflectors with 1 thing

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can u guess it?

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oh right

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emp launchers arent resistant to emp

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so u can emp launcher the emp launcher

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big brain

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🗿

jovial veldt
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Scout stun before you let the enemy build a game ending weapon

prisma vapor
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u assume everyone in 8v8 should play perfectly so lolcannon shouldnt be a thing

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yet it is

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and its dumb and most people who actually play the recent games know

jovial veldt
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No assume the unit has a role to end the game

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If you don’t like it deactivate the unit

crystal thorn
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If unit role is to end games then it should be like 4 times more expensive, 1.5x more range and require full e cost to actually fire

jovial veldt
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Like nuke?

prisma vapor
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idc if its meant to end games or not, it overlaps the t3 phase of the game and is simply better than t3

crystal thorn
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Instead you can rushbuild lolcannon on 35 min while having 1/3 of e income necessary to fire it, and ask for rest from a team, or even just fire with 1/3 e, it still does enough dmg

prisma vapor
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unless ur talking about marauders

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or the game is not in a stalemate and u have adv

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if it stalemates even for 1min u die to a lolcannon

prisma vapor
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its just a cheese

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it either works or fails miserably

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lolcannon almost always works in decent placements

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Lolcannon just nullifies the roles of titans, behemoths, juggs etc

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you should play a 8v8 game maybe u can experience it

jovial veldt
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Perhaps only on specific maps with many player

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I played more 8v8 than you

prisma vapor
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doesnt matter, ur 8v8 exp isnt recent

jovial veldt
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Lmao I can’t stop laughing

prisma vapor
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you are indeed very experienced at having a conversation

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😄

jovial veldt
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It’s not like lategame has changed much the last 10 years

jovial veldt
prisma vapor
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have you played 8v8s in non all welcome lobbies this week

jovial veldt
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Yes

prisma vapor
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nice

jovial veldt
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Your argument falls apart is suppose

prisma vapor
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you will soon share the same opinion as most people do about lolcannon

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i am sure a player who has sub 5 fps before minute 10 of an 8v8 game knows alot of lategame 8v8 meta and how it should be played

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😄

jovial veldt
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That’s my work pc but yeah I know quite a bit about 8v8 and late game

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Do you have any other arguments

crystal thorn
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Sabutai you yourself have no argument. Yes, lolcannon is supposed to end games, but its far too cheap for its purpose. It partially nullifies the point of building best and biggest units in the game, because those units are far too slow and can be dgunned or stopped by a lot of things in the game. Yet the lolcannon is mainly only stopped by emp cheese that really shouldn't be a thing for a "game ending unit".

prisma vapor
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game ending unit should be a thing and lolcannon fills that role

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that isnt the issue

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the issue it is overlaps its purpose with other t3 unit as it comes online at about same time

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and is just a better alternative

jovial veldt
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Kilian you’re Talking about sausage maps because this problem doesn’t appear on for instance bismuth

prisma vapor
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bismuth doesnt even belong in a conversation about lolcannon

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its irrelevent to that map

jovial veldt
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Why

prisma vapor
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lolcannon is viable on some maps only and should be balanced around it

jovial veldt
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It’s an 8v8 map played often

prisma vapor
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it has nothing to do with a lolcannon

jovial veldt
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Perhaps you will also complain about nukerush on speedmetal?

prisma vapor
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you are too dumb to talk to

jovial veldt
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Yes because you want to balance a unit because you don’t like it on certain maps and gamemodes

prisma vapor
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despite 10yrs+ exp u are a rock

jovial veldt
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Only insults left

crystal thorn
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If a unit is not build on certain maps, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced around maps where its built, what even is the argument. Dolphins are also not a problem on bismuth because there is no water.

jovial veldt
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Can’t even build dolphins on bismuth so the argument is moot

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Why would you consider dsd for balancing but not bismuth?

crystal thorn
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If we consider both then lolcannon still need to be changed in a some way. Lolcannon is not built on bismuth, therefore its bad. Lets hear your argument about how to buff it, so people can enjoy building it there

jovial veldt
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It doesn’t need to be buffed. It’s not too op that’s why you don’t see it rushed there

prisma vapor
jovial veldt
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That’s no argument at all

crystal thorn
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I mean I can't remember a single bismuth game with lolcannon, but I just struggle how to explain that unit really should be balanced around situation where its most commonly used, instead of some hypothetical good map Sabutai envisiones.

jovial veldt
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Answer the question. Why would you balance a unit around only specific maps

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You don’t see it there because it’s not too cheap

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You only see it used like that when you have players tucked away

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Same thing as the nuke and mohogeothermal discussion

crystal thorn
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Its not, you don't see it because thats a lane map where separate lanes feature wildly different skill players, so some lanes inevitably fall. If there was a balanced high ts bismuth lobby, people would build it because bismuth is still high metal map

jovial veldt
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You seem to only play certain game modes and base your reasoning on this

crystal thorn
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So do you
Nukes are not really balanced around 1v1 too even if you think they are

jovial veldt
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Off topic but what do you think it’s balanced around then?

crystal thorn
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Specifically nukes are fundamentally bad design from my view, that is just legacy of older games. I would completely rework them

jovial veldt
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I guess for you that same argument applies to lol cannons

crystal thorn
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Not really, but surely, you are not blind to the point that a lolcannon of all things is not build in 1v1, or small team games. It is only build in specific maps for 8v8, so if you are talking about balance you should be starting from situations where its actually used. If anything again, the fact that it isn't used in other 8v8 maps doesn't mean that its balanced for those maps too, and may require a tweak on itself. Units in the game should ideally have usage on all maps.

jovial veldt
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Is it an issue on straits? As I said you could also balance a unit around speedmetal

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But if you only ever play 8v8 on certain maps your view will be skewed

crystal thorn
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The lolcannon has separate problems on 8v8 maps where its rushed, and separate problems on 8v8 maps where its not used at all. And also completely forgotten on anything less than 8v8. "Only ever play 8v8 on certain maps" is uncalled for.

mental osprey
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It gets built on straits but it's not always a game winner. @jovial veldt you are simply arguing to don't touch it as if the suggestion is to remove it - do you actually care that much or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? People just want to make it more expensive to build one because it is actually still useful even when you don't have full energy to fire it constantly. That seems a bit weird and on a number of maps it cuts short the heavy T3 endgame which can be fun for some people to play. Frankly I don't care, I am mostly in agreement that if the opponent team gets the chance to build one game is probably over anyway (you lost), but I guess it makes a difference to some, so why not just go for the nerf?

jovial veldt
mental osprey
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RIght but people are offering arguments as to why they think it is toop cheap. What's the actual arguments saying it's fine?

jovial veldt
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You want me to rewrite or would you read what I wrote before

mental osprey
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I went back through the past 100 or so comments to see what you wrote, and I couldn't find anything that justifies or explains why it should remain as-is. I saw some claims about being a good player, and a some words with Choice, but not anything of substance, sorry.

jovial veldt
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Argument is that it’s a game ending unit that should also end games. It doesn’t appear problematic on any other maps except for certain specific ones. This shows that it’s not a balancing problem of the unit. Otherwise I could argue that we should consider speedmetal for balancing too

mental osprey
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And frankly, of all the suggestions, increasing the e cost seems most sensible since that's more of a check against "Do you have enough afus to actually afford this thing?"

crystal thorn
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Sabutai argument is that because its not build on the maps that he personally likes then its fine. Which makes about as much sense as it sounds.

jovial veldt
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There more players the more tucked away the more op it becomes

jovial veldt
mental osprey
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It will still be able to end the game if it is more expensive, and it probably won't even affect how long it takes to build by much, as long as enough afus are already present.

jovial veldt
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Then games will last even longer

mental osprey
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If the person building has enough afus, it shouldn't affect how long it takes to build by much. It would affect someone who is trying to build it without enough supporting afus

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How early should it be available?

crystal thorn
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You kinda said that. In your example, bismuth valley, I personally can't remember a single game where lolcannon was built, much less finished game as per described role. But surely with your 10 years of experience you will show the many examples.

agile frigate
jovial veldt
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It’s not a problem but neither is lolcannon ending games

mental osprey
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Lolcannon will still be available to end games after it's energy cost to build is increased.

jovial veldt
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The argument is not if it’s available or not but when. If you consider speedmetal it will be available much earlier than on carrot mountains. On which lolcannon is not a problem

agile frigate
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people dont use speedmetal as a balancer
its known that speedmetal breaks the balance entirely for the game

mental osprey
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That is currently the case, and it would always be the case, and I don't see how it affects the argument that it is currently too e-cheap to build. The whole point is that people are going for it too early successfully, that other avenues of gameplay are being skipped because it is too cheap.

quartz owl
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The massive energy cost proposed up top is equal to 290 corbuzz shots, or 145 seconds of firing it.

And the proposal was originally made for 2 reasons

  1. A feeling that T3 phase is cut short by it
  2. Aesthetic reasons. You need 8 afus for it to be "more dakka", but people routinely build it with far less energy income
crystal thorn
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Also on carrot mountains lolcannon is kinda a problem, its just that people hate playing carrot mountains already.

mental osprey
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Carrot mountain is a big and open enough map that most games will end well before lolcannon, and often before even T3.

jovial veldt
mental osprey
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Perhaps important questions, but nearly impossible to quantify and compare. Frankly the whole thread isn't the most pressing balance issue, even at current costs I see lolcannon built successfully in maybe 1/50 games. Usually it does win, but even then, not always. It really should be a last resort by design. T3 of all types has been massed and sent, bombers have been sent, and so on.

jovial veldt
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Give players more options and don’t confine them to specific tech trees

mental osprey
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We create a lot of constraints already with tech trees, balance, and tune timings for all of that. We could argue to make Jugg less expensive because that will give people more options earlier, but it would probably also throw off T3 balance.

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A cost increase doesn't take their options away, it just makes the option a less good decision at a stage of the game where you don't have enough afus to shoot it.

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It's like tryting to make Snipers off a single fus and handful of asolars.. You can do it, but you won't have the energy to really fight with them. Sometimes you only need one or two sniper shots though I guess. But we don't argue to make snipers cheaper, or more expensive, because we feel that it's build timing and cost are balanced for what it can do.

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I wanted to rephrase that.. Limiting options is part of creating a set of units that are different but balanced - some units can do things other units can't. Yes we need to be careful about creating too many limitations, but I don't think that is the case if we shift lolcannon e cost to make it more expensive to build. Note, buildtime is not changing, you can actually build it in the same amount of time assuming you have the e to put into it.

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And the difference with Snipers is that they aren't a game-ending unit, so we actually need to place less limitations on their balance.

slender blade
cursive patio
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Increasing energy cost to fire it seems appropriate. Let people build it early if they want for a low-powered super-long-range artillery. The E cost would mean you could actually defend from it with shields for a bit.

agile frigate
sullen wing
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do not make it more expensive, its too expensive already and difficult to get in a battle.

slender blade
sullen wing
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i would like to see you getting an lol cannon in an FFA or a 1v1 or somewhere where you dont have an entire team and backline 8v8 game.

slender blade
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Lolcannons occur frequently in ultra late FFA, and most 1v1 don't go to T2, so I don't think I am really seeing the core of your argument.

native talon
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you could halve the cost of lolcannon and see it just as often in 1v1 probably

shrewd basalt
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on maps where you don't see lolcannons now, a very large buff probably wouldn't change that. on maps where it's used, it's frequently the win condition, to the point where a semi-common call from various >30 ts players is "we're falling behind. our only hope is to get a lolcannon up before they do.", often when very few mid-late t3 units have been fielded. the latter seems like something that makes much more sense to balance around than the former, since a buff to make them used on the first category of maps would utterly break the game for the 2nd category of maps, but fixing them on the 2nd category of maps would have no impact positive or negative on the 1st category of maps.

coarse raven
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This would basically double the metal cost

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((4200000-718000)/60)*10.3 = 597743

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Another 60k metal

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heck, its just flat doubling the cost of the lolcannon

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This is just too much of a change to be reasonable, I think

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Maybe a 1.2x increase instead of a 2.0x increase or something

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120k metal is too much

shrewd basalt
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the existing energy cost adds 12.3k metal to the base price already, making the increase from the e cost nerf closer to 1.8x, but yeah an e cost that makes it more in the range of a 1.2x-1.4x metal equivalent increase would probably be more reasonable, though significantly less fitting

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could really go nuts and drop the m cost to 42069 while increasing e cost to some other goofy value significantly higher than the current e cost that brings the total to somewhere around that increase

sullen wing
cursive patio
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they can get it about the same time, but the path to get it becomes a bit more narrow and focused

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they'd be floating way too much energy if they didnt use it for lolcannon

shrewd basalt
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most of your converters will probably stop running once you're firing the lolcannon anyway, so it kinda organically encourages players to set their eco up to more for firing the cannon

cursive patio
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in the case of higher e cost, lower metal cost; making a lot of converters would set behind your lolcannon timing

quartz owl
# coarse raven ((4200000-718000)/60)*10.3 = 597743

The conversion factor is 58 for T2 mmkrs (it baffles me too)

x2 is probably fine.
The choice between 2 juggs or 4 titans vs lolcannon, the lolcannon is very frequently the better choice.
But if the choice is between 4 juggs or 8 titans vs lolcannon, that feels like much more of a tossup.

And the high E cost means the player going for lolcannon victory, still has a bunch of Mex and Reclaim income they can use on units.

cursive patio
shrewd basalt
slender blade
shrewd basalt
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i'm personally a bit skeptical about the 2x price, though not 100% opposed. "20-50% effective price increase and see where it goes" feels like it could very likely be enough to prevent it from being an easy way to end a game that's starting to go a bit long, but i'm open to the possibility that i'm way off the mark

cursive patio
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it is kinda sad when your epic t3 battle is ruined by a meteor shower.

livid plank
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imo lolcannon is not the issue, the issue rn is that lolcannons see a much higher rate of use because of emp bombers. People try and end games with t2/t3 units, just to get one tapped by this stupid cheap thing that outranges flak and works mapwide, end up feeding a ton, and realize that the only way to play the game is make lolcannon which is not countered by emp bomber

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a lot of people who probably didn't know emp bomber existed realized it existed, and its a common sight to see in nearly every game

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and those games tend to end up in lolcannon when people realize there is no economical way to push, not even with mobile flak which is the strongest aa in the game

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the only way you could theoretically push against emp bomber was to build t2 long range aa missiles which are super expensive and take time to stockpile, so people don't do that because its stupid

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and quite frankly, its nice to have a way to end games before the 2 hour mark when people can stop nearly any push with some emp bombers

crystal thorn
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I don't disagree that emp bombers are a bit busted, but t3 is an answer to emp bombers with most units either having inbuild aa (marauders, karg, razor, titan) or being emp immune (thor, jug, behe). You don't see mass t3 pushes as often because lolcannon is cheap, but they are not really stopped by emp bombers at all. As for before t3, if your opponent overbuilds emp bombers to react for your land units aa, then its prime time for your air to follow with actual bombers, because they should have advantage in figs.

severe pine
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I can't help by compare with FAF, galactic colossus (think titan i guess) costs 22.5k mass, but mavor (favored game ender i think) is 300k
Compared to that prices lolcanon feels more like a t3 artillery in faf (on steroids)
Difference is i guess like this,
T3 artillery(90k mass): has to be placed closer to front to reach "backline", can be stopped by layered shields
Game ender artillery: global range, almost impossible to stop with shields

So to me it feels lolcanon isn't "game ender-y" enough in its stats, and it's too cheap to be game ender, if that's the role it's supposed to have in BAR

But i do realize those 2 games have significantly different balance

livid plank
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the t3 that has builtin aa doesn't kill emp bombers they get one tapped while emp bomber barely takes damage

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you can make the emp immune t3 but they're all shit or slow or both

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at least in the higher skill lobby if t2/t3 pushes were viable to not get immediately owned by emp bomber, people would prefer to win games that way instead of risking a win on a 60k+ metal investment that loses if the enemy cares to scout

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note that im not talking about lower skill lobbies where people might fail to do any proper push, lolcannon will always be a natural choice when everyone is idling

shrewd basalt
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t3 units' aa is like cruise missile ship aa: enough to save it from getting slowly killed by a single gunship, barely more than that

livid plank
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marauder's aa for example is worse than a t1 bot aa

crystal thorn
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Well, I don't see thor called shit very often. But part of why emp immune units are shit is because building lolcannon is better and faster.

livid plank
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its not better or faster

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its a symptom of being able to push even if you have 2x eco

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not being able to*

shrewd basalt
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thors pretty good until they're the only unit that makes it past the emp bombers and die because they're alone

crystal thorn
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But it is better and faster, jugs and behes cost half of lolcannon, and take way longer to arrive to front. 60k metal investment is not exactly that much after 35 min mark. "Loses if enemy cares to scout" is also kinda not true, because you can naturally build it in entrenched porc position that can compensate for 60k metal difference. And when its online you can use lolcannon itself as porc, it kills t3 units in seconds.

livid plank
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unless your teams already behind you can do quite a lot with those resources

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if your team is behind 100k already, then yeah, it stinks when the enemy converts their advantage into something with a purpose

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lolcannon isn't free to fire either, you can catch up on eco very quickly if enemy is firing one

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haven't done the exact math on it, but the energy it costs to fire a lolcannon is usually comparable if not more than the cost of the unit its killing

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nobody (or at least not me) wants to play a 2 hr game, even 1 hr starts to get on the long end of things, nothing is wrong or bad with the timing of lolcannon in a balanced match

crystal thorn
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If you double cost of lolcannon or increase e cost, games won't magically become twice as longer. Maybe 5-10 minutes longer, when there is already stalemate with massive armies of t3 around.

livid plank
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double cost is incredibly extreme, why not just fix the problem that is causing people to be unable to push with economic advantage anyway?

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if lolcannon was op you'd expect the first person to get it to win, but that is not always the case

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there are serious tradeoffs associated both with deciding to make it and with firing it

crystal thorn
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You just stated that there is problem with people not being able to push with economic advantage because of emp bombers, but its not a given fact. When I gave you examples of bombers/emp resistance units, you just ignored that. Why exactly not fix them then or emp bombers themselves? Really don't see the logic: "my t2 push is getting killed because my air can't react in time, so guess I will just build lolcannon"

livid plank
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sure nothings a given fact but game after game following the same trend is ridiculous

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I feel confident in saying that emp bomber being severely nerfed or removed would lessen game lengths and reduce the pain it is to try and win with units

crystal thorn
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Well again, I agree that emp bombers are busted, but thats a separate problem that not really connected with lolcannon, because it just skips over entire t3 progression and roster of units. If you nerf emp bombers the games will more often end in T2/early T3 phase, but once you stalemate for them, it still will be a rush to lolcannon, instead of cool big robots killing each other.

severe pine
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I guess you can't even this out with offensive emp bombers of your own because of how extremely powerful static aa is?

slender blade
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Let's give flak truck emp immunity

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So I can actually push

shrewd basalt
livid plank
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you can use emp bombers too but you'll probably be running into enemy air coverage/aa and the problem still exists of your stuff getting stunned in what is probably close to enemy territory

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stunning your push gives enemy time to get their units in place to counter you

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defensively its much easier to use, shits broken offensively too, but yeah

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if you use your own fighters to kill the emp bombers you're most likely feeding as they run into enemy antiair/superior fighter wall and your stuffs still stunned

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flak truck emp immunity would open up counterplay to push, but flak truck is already so op lmao

slender blade
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Fair enough

livid plank
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not sure having emp immune (best aa unit in the game) is healthy either

slender blade
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Give it to AA bots maybe, so they at least have a purpose?

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or make AA bots deal hgiher bonus damage to bombers

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Off topic from the lolcannon discussion though

livid plank
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or just nerf emp bomber 😛

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yea, a bit off topic

shrewd basalt
hasty rapids
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Teddy told me of a time when he almost got banned from the game when he nearly had one built but a mod was speccing and told him to eat it or be banned

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Then they disabled lol cannons soon after

jovial veldt
livid plank
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not a fan of ares balance decision to remove lolcannon

jovial veldt
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Lol cannon is a crucial tool to punish overteching, not fighting for map control and not scouting

coarse raven
prisma vapor
# crystal thorn Well again, I agree that emp bombers are busted, but thats a separate problem th...

Emp bombers are the main reason lolcannon gets built, emp bombers just nullify every push in existence, if u push with thors then sure you don't get emp'd on the thors but everything else with which ur team might try to help you push will get emp'd and thors will be single'd out and will probably die to other t3, pulsars, snipers or commander when alone. This game state of not being able to push with almost anything because even the emp immune targets will die to other basic units when the emp bombers kill everything supporting it, is what causes the decision to make lolcannon over any amount of t3 unit.

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Played a game on Rosetta once against malady going emp bombers, clyret asked the whole team to not make units to push as it will just be feed, then about 5-6 people funded the metal to clyret for making lolcannon and the game ended without any brawl whatsoever.

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It was the most boring shit to ever exist because even players as good as clyret or malady dont push into emp bombers and would rather eco to get a position to make a lolcannon instead of making t3 units.

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There should be some level of brawl or gameplay to find the game enjoyable but it's just "see armada t2 air lab = make afus for eventual lolcannon"

coarse pike
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Why are emp bombers tanking AA? shouldn't they be like a normal bombers, then they would drop once and die and it could fix the issue

prisma vapor
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Fixing emp bombers will indirectly nerf lolcannon

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Atleast a little bit

coarse pike
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Emp bombers are a fix to the mass unit 1 click like marauders or mass pyro/tanks, it's good gameplay to need AA to be able to push deep and kill but Emp bombers don't die to ground AA and that's weird balance, it seems t1 bot AA are the best counter to emp bombers and mobile flaks almost useless.

shrewd basalt
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Giving units in general an amount of emp resist based on their price was thrown around a lot in emp thread, though it would probably be least effective vs emp bombers due to units generally getting hit by multiple bombs per payload, which would completely bypass minor or moderate emp resist

cursive patio
shrewd basalt
native talon
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yeah emp damage is just same as health, but instead of killing when emp damage is maxed, it is stunned. that's why emp units show absolutely bonkers dps when you select the unit

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(except for units with emp resistance, which just take a percentage less "damage" from emp things)