#Make nukes a bit more expensive?

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

molten coyote
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Nukes end too many games too early.

Make them more expensive so they're way easier to counter. You shouldn't be able to end games easily by following a basic build queue and clicking one button imo.

Just got nuked on Ice Cream at 11 mins'ish.. rough.

spiral junco
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Nukes are a bit fast I feel, but I wouldn't nerf them too hard. Slowing them by a minute or two would probably feel good

molten coyote
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Yup. Why is it so easy to end a game with such a simple build?

zinc breach
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pls increase cost its ridiculous

willow mango
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cmon guys, its already hard enough for me to nuke peoples at 14 mins xD

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11 with geo but thats besides the point

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promises its hard takes 100 ts minimum

willow mango
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Problem with being high ts is you are prime nuking target

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and tbf ice scream is THE nuke rush map

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but would agree can be a bit insane

molten coyote
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and once top 2 players are nuked.. It's gg

willow mango
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just curious who nuked you? xD

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what was his ts

molten coyote
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Skymirrh

willow mango
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ah, yeah that'll happen xD

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@distant jolt come

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we talking about you op

molten coyote
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He didn't get me.. Got Flash and Fonzie

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but i mean it's happened so many times

distant jolt
willow mango
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nuke op

distant jolt
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mostly on Ice Scream

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geo carries

molten coyote
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please make more expensive, thanks

spiral junco
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Problem I see is that any regular nuke rush player means the entire first 10 mins revolve around that player or gg. Bomb them or hope you get enough antinukes out in time (won't happen)

distant jolt
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bombing or comdrop or something like that is the only real option tbh

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I've once seen it countered by sending an air cons and building a bot lab in the corner

spiral junco
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Which is the problem imo

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For such a strategy that threatens the whole map. Why is there only 1 true defense?

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Heck, of note, the reason we bomb is for more time on anti nukes, not to necessarily even stop the nuke

solemn kestrel
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My opinion is that nukes and anti-nukes are too close in timing and tech to each other

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anti-nukes silos cost 40,000 energy, with a 26 E:M ratio, that is a post-fusion unit

distant jolt
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on the other side of the equation, a nuke rusher does not contribute anything to the team if the rush fails. So it's only really on Ice Scream that nuke rush is a problem, on other maps you can use the pressure advantage

solemn kestrel
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But rushed nukes are also made after fusion and before afus

spiral junco
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The problem is that making the rush fail, is very difficult in most games where it's used

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you need multiple points of coverage to create a fail

solemn kestrel
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And good luck if you are on the front line, still at Tech 1 at ~12:00, or just starting the T2 lab

spiral junco
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or if the team dies before then, but most techers arent in the game till 14ish mins anyway

solemn kestrel
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An earlier juno-like-cost anti-nuke might be interesting. Small radius, only 1 stockpile, but something a T1 player can throw up to not lose everything.

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...Idle thought, a "radiation detected" alert once a silo is constructed. (or a building that can do that detection)

distant jolt
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won't help, when you get the notification will already be too late, no time to mount an effective raid

spiral junco
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I think you'd still have time rush an anti if you were capable, but at that point, you'd deserve it

charred swift
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Nukes and lolcannons too cheap

willow mango
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Too cheap=too op 😄

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I mean lolcannon def intended to be op

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To finish out games

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Maybe increasing energy cost per shot could be justified?

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I feel like messing with metal price too much could cause problems

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Maybe a nuke could require 2 fus roughly 2k energy to not stall instead

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Or 1.5

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I wouldnt mind that tbh, just so people cant fully stock nuke off a single geo

charred swift
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Yea I know lolcannons are meant to end games, but actually, they get ended when there is like 1 juggernaut on the field and it just feels too fast

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The window for the late t3 units is like, after the lolcannons come out

willow mango
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Yeah fair point its cheaper than 2 juggs

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Except you can cross map with it

marsh turtle
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3x cost for the nuke, 3x cost for lolcannon is fine

zinc breach
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100% agree with goopy lolcannon needa significant increase, nukes need just a small increase, cause rushing geo to nuke is pretty easy on a lot of maps

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Also there should be a decoy Anti u can build to fuck with nuke rushers imo

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Like a t1 decoy anti

trim glen
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Using ice scream nuke rush as a base value, balancing it in the way that first nuke will be at 15-16 mins and not 11-12 I guess

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Also vehicle anti nuke for arm and bot for core because sometimes it’s irritating that you don’t get mobile anti if going with those

limber depot
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Weren't there talks about reducing the commander wreck from 2000 metal to something lower like 1500 or 1000. That would be a nerf to nuke rushers.

opal willow
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Is this a map specific problem where one tucked away back player gets a super safe geo spot and can’t even be attacked by ground on a sausage map?

dapper bramble
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People need to scout more, spot the nuke and rush an anti as a counter to nuke rush.
If nuke is delayed by a few more minutes then everyone will always have antis without even knowing if the enemy team has a nuke, just to be safe.

With some games played you know which players usually do a nuke rush, it shouldn't be a problem to get a few air scouts to confirm.

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As for lol cannons, I see one very rarely, 1 in 20 games maybe? if not less... and from my experience games were already over both on eco (they can afford the lol cannon and the cost to fire it) and on map control which they need on most maps to reach the enemy base.

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Nuke rush is faster on Ice Scream because of geo at the usual nuke rushing spot, but that's just that specific map design problem/feature

zinc breach
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we pulled resources to make nuke faster

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ofc i knew people would just blame map design

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100% not map design, issue is arm nuke is too fast

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cheap nuke, with fast reload, which cheaper t1 wind, its just dumb

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especially in 8v8 when someone can sit in the back

dapper bramble
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Monkey opened this thread complaining about nuke rush on ice scream, this is definitely a map design issue, you can get a geo for 2700m cheaper and get 250 e more than with fusion. This makes nuke rush a lot faster.

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You can't get 11 min nuke on other maps

zinc breach
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yes the thread was opened about ice scream, but its broader in that nuke rushes are fast in general

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even dsd nuke rushes have limited counterplay

distant jolt
dapper bramble
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I know CJ likes rushing nukes and us fast at it, whenever I am playing against him on a map where I know he isn't front I try to send a few air scouts over his base to see if he is making a nuke and rush an anti. Blindly nuking is a big gamble so they will have to scout to find out anti locations, by this time you should have some aa to hopefully kill their scouts and limit their targets or increase the risk.
It takes some preparation and team coordination.

dapper bramble
distant jolt
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I've never seen it work in practice, I've always seen the nuker manage to nuke somewhere an anti was still getting built because no time to put down everywhere 🤔 Only way I've seen rushes countered is with eco cripple (bombers or hard land breach or something cheeky)

dapper bramble
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People never scout, know the enemy team has a good player doing nothing for 12 mins and then are surprised when they get nuked while their own techers are doing nothing or just ecoing in peace.

distant jolt
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no, I actually mean I've never seen an anti rush work as counter to nuke rush. Like, when Crouxy / TArules were nuke rushing in every other game, we had plenty of time to practice counter, knowing full well they would nuke rush (without even the need to scout, early on, before they mixed in a few other strategies in the mix and then we had to scout to adapt). I've seen successful anti rushes to protect a good half of the team, but never the whole team, except on some specific maps like All That Glitters where 2 antis can protect all 8 bases.

charred swift
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There likely is a reason why DSD was the most popular map in BA

gusty wasp
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Nuking a small base isn't necessarily a good use of resources to make up for nukes cost

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But being able to nuke front in emergency is always potential valuable

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Making missile building time a tad longer might be good, gives a little more time... Just like 20s more or so maybe

opal willow
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On I scream I get mobile antis for the whole team in time

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Before sending t2

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Is arm nuke a problem on bismuth?

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If you boil it down it is a map problem. It’s like comparing timeframes on a metalmap. If there is a reference map and teamsize you shouldn’t balance it around 8v8 sausage maps

fervent junco
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revert mobile anti nerf they were much stronker and worth building back then

solemn kestrel
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And it is not always the "good player" doing the nuke rush. Fairly easy for a newer 20 OS player to learn the nuke buildorder, and become the win condition for that team

fervent junco
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if you're op and do nuke rush your team won't capitalize on it lmao, it's an op strat if you wanna get carried

solemn kestrel
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With current stockpiling, once you build an anti, you are committed to stockpiling 20 of them across 30 minutes. 3,000 metal and 150,000 energy (plus the initial 1,500 m and 40,000 e cost of the anti-silo)

The nuke rusher can reclaim the 8100 metal of the arm silo into anything else, and they are only out the 90,000 energy of the silo, and 1,000 m and 125,000 e per built missile

molten coyote
dapper bramble
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Yes 😄

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Did you scout the nuke spot

molten coyote
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Tried.. Got shot down. finally 😄

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Make antis cheaper or nukes more expensive. Nukes ruin too many games too early with a simple build and a single button click. Defending nuke for the whole team should cost about as much as it takes to make a nuke that can kill the whole team.

Nerf nukes.

solemn kestrel
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If you scout the nuke spot, how early can you detect the nuke rush, vs generic teching?

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If the silo is complete, and you do not have an anti, it is already GG.
You have to slam out that anti in less than 30 seconds. 10 con turrets and 1,333+ energy expenditure to make the anti-silo in time

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Off a 3 T2 mex, 2 fusion, T2 metal maker economy (+24 m, +2000 e), an arm silo can be made in 165 seconds.

So about a 3 minute scouting window to confirm a nuke rush.

spiral junco
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Problem is "Just scout it 4head" isn't that easy. Front players are too metal starved. It's just the air player (if you have one) who can really do it.

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Nuke is such an uninteractive strategy for it to be as powerful and fast as it is

fervent junco
fervent junco
molten coyote
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we know it's the meta.

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built antis as quickly as possible. Still got double wrecked.

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it's not about that map.. It's nukes in general. Nukes are too easy to build and too often end games. No unit should be that accessible and that destructive.

green hill
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Quick lab reclaim into air lab, pump out 5 scouts and reach the back... how many antis does it take to stop the nuke on Ice Scream from hitting somewhere important? Also noting nukes on anti edge? Keeping in mind the time it takes for the techer to get cons in place

opal willow
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Building anti is faster than building a nuke

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You can spam mobile antinukes

dapper bramble
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For the price of a nuke silo you can make about 5 and a half antis

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And it is almost completely useless once antis are up, you can maybe hit some forward spots and armies but it will he hard to make it pay for itself from that before even mobile antis are up

thin aspen
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The problem is that you need roughly the same investment in eco to rush antinuke, as you do to rush nuke, so it's not so simple as "antis are cheaper and counter nuke." Yes, antis are cheaper, but if you're a front player, you still can't build one in time to stop a nuke rush

dapper bramble
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Yea but a back player should be the one making the anti, and on most maps its covers about 3 bases

thin aspen
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imo nuke rushes are cool, but antis are too expensive in buildpower and e. If you know nuke rush is coming, it shouldn't be hard to counter it

solemn kestrel
dapper bramble
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I think decreasing anti price is too much, anti is an unit you make once and forget about it, for a one time investment and protecting a large area I think the price is fine.
If you really want a nerf to nuke rush time increase the build time of the nuke silo.

gusty wasp
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build time of the silo vs build time of the missile

solemn kestrel
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An afus costs 1.75x more buildtime than an arm nuke silo, despite similar costs

thin aspen
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see I would think that anti is already so cost effective that decreasing its cost wouldn't really matter, especially since it's set-and-forget. Like over the course of a game, saving like, 10k on each anti would be basically meaningless, it would just matter for rushes

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idk though, that's speculation. I often find when I'm trying to build anti that I have plenty of m for it, but not enough bp or e.

Actually, making it more m expensive but cheaper in e would maybe be good, because then it allows players who win front and have lots of reclaim to build it, which also benefits the natural counterplay to nuke rushes

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because if they rush nuke, their front will get less support

solemn kestrel
thin aspen
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how much bp does antinuke cost compared to say, like t2 lab, or fus?

solemn kestrel
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...hmmm
I wonder how a cheaper, very small radius anti-nuke would work.
Like, a small enough radius that an arm nuke on the edge would still kill the anti-nuke, but it could redirect nukes away from vulnerable areas and force better scouting from the nuke rusher...

thin aspen
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because I very conspicuously notice every game that it takes forever to build

solemn kestrel
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armfus buildtime = 70,014
armamd buildtime = 60,000

thin aspen
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lol almost as much as fus, no wonder

solemn kestrel
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armalab buildtime = 16,224

thin aspen
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oh lol

solemn kestrel
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A single bot con making a T2 bot lab uses a silly amount of m/sec, 14.3 metal/sec

thin aspen
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wow anti costs almost twice as much e as fus. So if equivalent bp, it takes you twice as long, and same e cost RATE as fus

idk that seems pretty bad

solemn kestrel
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Another spitball idea. An earlier tech level anti-nuke that "redirects" nukes instead of neutralizing them. (not sure how map edges would be handled)

thin aspen
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lol fuck your teammates amirite

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what about a t3 anti that just sends the nuke back to sender

solemn kestrel
faint flare
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mobile antis 200 e produced again, no sausage maps and problem splved, nuke rush already slow, just some players hate antis

zinc breach
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Decoy antis pls

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Super cheap and fast to make

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So the nuke player has to keep scouting to keep tabs on which antis are real

solemn kestrel
autumn mountain
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send a nuclear missile at the 11th minute? Are you really kidding me?

autumn mountain
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It takes me about 20 minutes to get to that level.

spice pendant
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decoy antis really good idea

distant jolt
dapper bramble
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I wonder what the game would be like if every unit had a decoy version

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Decoy tick 🤣

pliant salmon
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is there any other unit that produces energy?

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aside from constructor

fluid yarrow
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Nukes really should get nerfed.... it should require more E to delay the rush by 2min.

zinc breach
valid gulch
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didn't read all discussion but when comparing to supcom nukes, nukes in BAR feel weaker cause antinukes are cheap and load really fast (at least it feels so)
EMP on antinuke kinda makes it better and ability to nuke past the antinuke as well
but overall for me one of the biggest problems was scouting
aa in this game is really good at killing scouts
while in supcom aa misses scouts and even if scout dies it keeps scouting while it falls on the ground

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i have no BAR experience of nuke rushing or defending against it tho

autumn mountain
distant jolt
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it's very strong if you are not scouted and then bombed, and if your front is able to hold out while you contribute nothing to the team for 11 mins 😄

zinc breach
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Even if you scout it its still hard to devote enough resources to stop. As a front player they're very little you can do tbh. The energy cost for anti is too high without a fusion most of the time.

robust idol
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Nukes to me seem like an end game item, it destroys 90% of everything, and pretty much a start over. any unit that takes that much energy and metal to create can't do that it does in damage. I know people will not like this but I feel size damage area should be reduced by atleast 1/3-12 since it can hit any where in the map. and damage reduced making it a not a start over aspect. meaning should do less area and little less damage then commander blowing up.. then if has it's place. then anti nukes area be reduced so it is balanced with it. If your base is hit with nuke it is time to quit. that should not be the case.

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or be 2 kinds of nukes, big area but kills light units. or very small area 4 factories in size but damage we have now. that would be perfect.

autumn mountain
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At least one third? C'mon. Then the sense of such a weapon. After all, it will beat like a cracker.

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Will cease to live up to its name, like a nuclear weapon.

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And where are these 90% of everything? Here is a commander or tier 3 mechs that can take a direct hit. Mechs even more so, since a nuclear explosion deals 10,000 damage. Most mechs can withstand 5-15 direct hits (if we talk about Juggernauts or Titans). It takes more than 30 such hits to kill a behemoth.

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I am more in favor of the proposal to increase the price of construction.

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To prevent any cheaters from bombing at the very beginning.

opal willow
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No such issues on bismuth which you can claim is an 8v8 map

trim glen
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The issue appears on maps with an eco/air/nuke rush spot, so any map where a player can decide to not build units and not be punished for that

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I also agree that the cost should be increased or the load time or both and the topic ZLO mentioned is that scouting is quite hard early on and you cannot waste metal on like 40 t2 scouts just to find out that they are not nuke rushing

dapper bramble
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You don't need 40 t2 scouts, you need just a few at a specific spot at a specific time about 10 mins or so. Any resources they invest into their own air and aa is delaying the nuke. Even better if you go all in and get some bombers.

fervent junco
dapper bramble
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That's teamplay and coordination problem on your team then

fervent junco
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being able to communicate with allies too stronk

dapper bramble
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Fighter wall is rarely up by 10 mins and it's not usually a wall either

fervent junco
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its ez to have enough fighters to prevent scouting, for example the game monkey is referring to, op yep prevented him from scouting nuke op

distant jolt
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OP YEP made fig wall to protect my nuke rush on the instance that triggered this thread

fervent junco
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they didnt have to scout it should have rushed anti anyway, based on map and playerlist gg

distant jolt
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tbf this game was a complete masterclass in team coordination, before we were all even placed 3 persons on the team pledged to feed me metal, energy, and wind, and then YEP scouted and defended with figs

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imba Ice Scream nuke rush

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(and I'm not even a good rusher)

fervent junco
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op yep adapting to his team even if he can't coach them, stronk teammate

zinc breach
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Muted yep is pretty high skillset

charred swift
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I would like to bump this thread activity up plz

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lolcannon way too cheap imo

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its insane

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you can fire it with devestating effect off of 4 afus

solemn kestrel
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+1 to that
lolcannon looks better when being fully powered by 8 afus, it should only be reasonably buildable after 8 afus.

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spitball idea, make lolcannon way more energy expensive to build.

...wait, the numbers work out nice. Making separate thread

rose nimbus
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I think i was in the game that sent you here @charred swift 😄

charred swift
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Yea

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You were 😄

solemn kestrel
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Back on topic, nuke counterplay is just boring.
"I have, like, an invincible shield that can block any nuke"

It is too all or nothing.
Give us decoy mindgames
Give us deflector barriers
Give us a short-ranged interceptor that airbursts the nuke, reducing the damage radius, instead of letting it hit the ground.

opal willow
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It’s not invincible. There are 4 different units that can stun it

solemn kestrel
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Right, and if the anti-nuke is stunned, there is no fallback plan, no alternative mitigation strategy for dealing with a nuke, except for walking in another "no nukes allowed" umbrella.

opal willow
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What’s the point of a nuke if you can’t nuke

fervent junco
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it's not easy to stun anti, should be rewarded op

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op yep played a game on koomer valley earlier they tried to nuke him coordinating emp tac nuke with voice chat but had too many antis gg

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they managed to nuke only once and it just cleared half of the nanos at front was chilling still

charred idol
# solemn kestrel Back on topic, nuke counterplay is just boring. "I have, like, an invincible sh...

I support this. Nukes should always remain an end game "big boom, base gone" option, but the play around it could be made more interesting.

I like the idea of a (new special plane/turret/other vehicle? or adding it to an existing unit) interception option that causes the missile to do damage where it gets popped. That option should be able to be put on the field quickly, as the defensive/"last ditch" application, taking the missile out on your half of the map still risks damaging yourself, while the offensive option of exploding it above your enemies base/units requires additional skill/effort.
Perhaps adjusting/increasing the time it takes for missiles to launch from the silos (possibly to several minutes?), while adding the requirement for the opponent to scout your silos to know they exist, and while they're in launch sequence in order to know a missile is coming, (so no notifications, unless scouted, any more) could be a fun combination with the ability to pop them as well.

(more coming)

charred idol
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Let's establish (what I think are) the current game scenarios;
Nuke simple; Opponent is able to build nuke at any point in the game, and you did nothing, or too late; you die.
Nuke counter; just build (enough) anti nuke before nuke, but in most extreme case; Opp rushes nuke (in peace, or else you would have beat or delayed him), but you realize and counter rush traditional anti nuke (in peace, etc); you're safe under your curtain and game goes into cold war end game unit fight.
Nuke difficult; Opp build nuke, and plans to counter your anti nuke (in peace etc...), and you counter insufficient and/or not properly protect traditional anti nuke; you die watching your bombed/emp'd anti nuke.

If we increase the launch sequence, while adding intelli requirements, those scenarios would remain essentially the same, while stretching up some limits and adding tactics.
Nuke simple; If opp builds nuke, and you never counter, you still lose.
Nuke counter; "If opp hard rushes nuke, then delay/defeat him and/or hard rush anti nuke yourself" remains the same, but now added with; if you didn't realize the enemy was rushing nukes, and you were not taking offensive advantage of that, but scouted the launch sequence quickly enough after it started on a silo you perhaps didn't even knew existed, and have a decent amount of buildpower/resources available from at least properly doing your own build while opp was rushing the "one button win" nuke rush build, you should be able to rush a single anti nuke and be defended, in one area at least, before that bomb drops.
Nuke difficult; "You build/rush nukes, but then also take some extra time to properly plan to take out the anti nuke" remains, but you now also have the option to hide that you have any nukes at all till they fall on the enemies base, if they never noticed/scouted you having them at all.

Now, if we add in a mid flight, "choose" where it goes boom, interception option, those scenarios would simply have some more options;

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Nuke simple; Remains the same; no anti nuke if you allow the enemy to get nukes; you die.
Nuke counter; The previous options remain, but rather than a single expensive anti nuke umbrella, you'd also have the option to have many cheaper, smaller anti nuke counters included in your defenses/armies. Which could/would often result in that defensive position/army being destroyed, but at least you intercepted it from going to probably your main base.
Nuke difficult; Remains the same, but adding the layer of "does he have many smaller, or a single anti nuke" in the planning and execution options, and giving the defensive player the ability to pull of an insane stunt and detonating the nuke mid air above the launching players base/units, as a balance to losing stuff themselves when intercepting on their side of the map.

charred idol
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And to end, another kind of random stand alone, side idea that also goes with above suggestions; Make anti nuke silos a targetable AoE, (that gets smaller by range, seems appropriate), that has to go over the enemy nuke silo, rather than your own base. On the largest maps you'd have to pinpoint click each enemy nuke silos with your anti nuke silos in order to counter them, so you'd have to find them all, or build an anti nuke silo closer to the enemy base/nuke silo area and hope you're covering them all. Vice versa spreading out your nuke silos would prevent them from being covered by a single "close enough to still have AoE rather than pinpoint" anti nuke silo. Perhaps the standard pinpointers could decrease the size drop off on the AoE or something, giving longer AoE anti nuke capabilities, but on the smallest 1v1 maps a single anti nuke in your base should be able to cover the entire enemy base/whole map regardless. (And, perhaps there should also be a way to decrease the enemies anti nuke's accuracy. So one moment a single anti nuke has enough range/size to cover several silos, but by building a certain something, this can change, allowing nukes to be fired without being countered again.)

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Apologies for spam.

rose nimbus
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If you start actually spamming we'll notify you, hasn't happened yet, no worries 🙂

autumn mountain
rose nimbus
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What is the largest economy you have managed to go up to? That might be the reason for that opinion

marsh turtle
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you can scale to 40-50k energy income without much trouble once you have your layout and metal prepared; from there lolcannon is the most efficient game-ender provided the placement is available

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this amounts to making krogs/titans/other unit investment a much less effective tool of domination if said krogs/whatever are not able to immediately get to lolcannon and deal with it (which is quite achievable by getting heavy porc around the lolcannon)

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in my opinion, lolcannon could very much stand to get 2x-2.5x price increase both in metal and energy - and that still would not make it less attractive in the right situation

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of course relative adjustments to plasma shields would also be in order

trim glen
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When it comes to lolC I would increase the price slightly and the firing cost massively, making it a final weapon draining most of the energy of the player thus lowering his metal income

opal willow
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LOLcannon is the game ender. It is priced so that games rarely last more than 45 minutes

charred swift
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yea but 45 is a bit early

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1 hr games should be ended by this not 40 min games

molten blade
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Maybe making storage survive the nuke so you have a chance of not being flat wiped?

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And with anti nuke could fighters not attack the anti if in range

zinc breach
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Its good that nukes are punishing

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They are just too powerful if a team coordinated to make it happen

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The lolcannon is worth like 2 krogs and it's like 10x more effective at ending the game

molten blade
spiral junco
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Nuke scout difficult with the team widget

zinc breach
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This game can be very hard to scout

molten blade
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I still think fighters should be able fight anti nuke launches makes air defence more important across the map

zinc breach
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Resources are very thin

spiral junco
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"Just scout it" isn't really an option for 6-7 players in a game prior to 10 minutes

molten blade
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how much are flying scouts?

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not that expensive

zinc breach
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Its the most expensive lav

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Lab*

molten blade
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in a 6/7 players game

#

someones going air

zinc breach
#

I think you've yet to play teamgames

molten blade
#

How many rush paralyzers now

spiral junco
#

If your techer goes air to scout, he's delayed and forever behind the enemy techer. If a front goes air, they have to find 700m which could be units, or reclaim their factory thus stopping unit production putting them behind their opponent

zinc breach
#

Its 850 + the scout

#

So closer to 950

spiral junco
#

You need more than one scout at that

zinc breach
#

Either way, reclaiming ur lab, it will severely delay you on the front and its huge risk, you will likely lose your position if you do so

spiral junco
#

Hoping literally 0 people built a thistle is some big dreams

zinc breach
#

Yeah so just saying, not impossible, but exceedingly difficult to do

#

Thats exactly why nuke rushes are so potent

#

Its not like we don't wanna scout

#

Or we don't think to scout

#

Its just not feasible most of the time

spiral junco
#

Its way too difficult on the defenders part for the amount of effort the nuker puts in

zinc breach
#

Thats why nuke rush gets so much success

#

That's the point of this thread, to make it more expensive exactly because its difficult to prevent

#

And even then

spiral junco
#

Follow build order, send scout's, click button. 0 effort

zinc breach
#

Even if u blind build antinuke asap and don't even scout, you will basically always be behind their techer

#

Antinuke costs huge e

#

So even if you are gifted t2, you need a fusion before you build anti

#

As a front player its basically impossible to cover for unless you have lucky wind or huge reclaim to get fusion fast

#

But if the enemy team starts pulling resources to make nuke faster its just gg

spiral junco
#

Hard part with scouting too. You have a small window to do it. Nuke rush doesn't really look different from a techer if you go too early

solemn kestrel
#

You have ~3 minute window to catch the nuke silo nanoframe under construction.
If you see an already completed silo (and have no anti under construction), you are too late

spiral junco
#

^ at that point, best you can do is bluff

zinc breach
#

Which is why decoy anti sounds like a fun mind game

solemn kestrel
#

...another spitball idea
Cortex gets decoy anti
Armada gets cloaked anti

spiral junco
#

Cloaked anti is funny

#

Gotta use t2 scouts for that bad boy

zinc breach
#

How do decoy buildings work? Can't u click on them and see the lower hp

charred swift
#

You can't click on enemy buildings afaik

autumn mountain
#

10-12k per shot? Well, of course, let's increase it to 13-15k. If this is Ragnarok or Calamity, then the full rate of fire will cost 78-90 thousand. A super-economy is definitely required.

#

Just don't overdo it. Otherwise, the whole map will be built up with super-reactors. One of these is enough to make a giant big boom.

#

😄

opal willow
#

Wait you’re arguing it’s difficult to spare some cash to scout because you might get overrun? How does one have enough to build a nuke then and get away with it?

spiral junco
#

You... sit... in... the... back?

fervent junco
#

if enemy dudes can sit in the back and chill your team also can
you're describing a map/game mode/player skill issue gg

spiral junco
#

Almost like you didnt read the thread

next grove
#

what if i remove geo from air spot in Ice Scream?

#

or at least move it away from starting spot so no nano can build it

#

i don't really feel like nuke is a problem on other maps

#

also as an endgame weapon it is pretty useless in late game itself ironically

#

it is only viable as a rush

#

probably nuke could have a change like X more expensive, but countered 1 by 1 by antinuke, not 1 anti cover from 6+ simultaneous nukes

#

so it will be worse as a rush, but viable as lategame weapon

fervent junco
#

make it only reachable by air so ppl are forced to go air lmao gg

next grove
next grove
spiral junco
#

That wouldnt hurt on ice scream, but I think a lot of us feel it's still an issue on other maps, albeit, less egregious

opal willow
#

Nikuksis your maps are great but now we have enough sausage maps with overpowered tech spots. Please do more square maps now

next grove
#

added yesterday

#

I'm also not a huge fan of porcy "sausage" maps, but 15 minute 8v8s are not the best either

#

and yes, i'm trying to reduce tech spots as much as i can, Ice scream is just an exclusion

opal willow
#

Do smaller maps for 3v3 pls 😍

next grove
#

the next map will be 1v1-3v3

zinc breach
#

U can just blind anti and its still too slow

marsh turtle
#

so yeah, nuke-antinuke dynamic could use some adjustments for sure

next grove
#

cheaper but lower RoF anti would be ok i think, or just the same price and lower RoF with more expensive nuke is ok either

#

so one anti can protect from one nuke at a time

fluid merlin
#

Ice scream not the only map with geo tech spots, nuke rush on Rosetta is op as well

next grove
#

if you launch two nukes it can't shoot both( like it was in OTA)

#

so it will be easier to protect against nuke rush, but several nukes in late game can still do the job through the anti

marsh turtle
next grove
#

you have to have few anties

#

to protect from few nukes

zinc breach
#

Also hot lips

#

But hot lips isn't as bad since wind so high people can make anti early without fusion

mighty jasper
#

which is why you don't see people complaining about op tech timings on that map

robust idol
#

Got a solution, in game settings have an option for any unit/ building/ Nuke. So you can say no nuke building till 30 min into game. then nuke and antinuke option is greyed out till that time is hit. Problem sovled.

zinc breach
#

Didn't think of that, thanks Steve.

candid sail
#

No, not more expensive but rather more high risk high reward. For example, allow for a limited amount of nukes to be fired. If the limit is overshot then everyone loses due to radiation.

#

Make the players seriously contemplate if it's worth firing a nuke. It should have an effect on all players on the map. It should be a big thing to fire a nuke.

gusty wasp
#

nuke yourself to make a draw

spiral junco
#

What does a metal death robot care about radiation for?

#

Also, that sounds like some real "im about to lose, better nuke"

solemn kestrel
#

Rise of Nations had a system like that. And I think the meta was to go hog wild with nukes until the countdown went to 1.

warm dagger
#

Nuke rush means you're not doing something else. There's a big reason way more high go a nuke bomber and scale eco. Nuke rush costs you 9k metal and a fusion.

#

60 t1 bombers is cheaper than a nuke

#

Could bomb 3 people

#

I love nuke rushing

#

But it's hugely expensive

#

A 11 minute adv fus does a lot

charred swift
#

Adv fus very bad vs nuke ngl

warm dagger
#

If against someone worse than you

#

You can get afus and anti

#

By the time they launch

#

Most nuke rushes only have like 400e income

#

They're behind 2 or 3 fusions

#

The op part of nukes is not the rush

#

It's the continuing value

pseudo cliff
#

How about a new t1 anti nuke with a t2 building price and 1 missile stockpile and less cover?

#

This would make that if you scouted a nuke building already built just loading, then you could possibly cover what you want and still paying a t2 price..

pseudo cliff
next grove
#

i think could be nice for 1v1's

opal willow
#

👍

spice pendant
#

even if yuo doubled the cost to build nuke facility, and doubled the cost/time to build each nuke, it really would only shift the nuke problem like 2 minutes IMO

trim glen
#

That’s the whole point, to delay it slightly

opal willow
#

It is balanced for 1v1 not for 8v8 where one unraidable player has 6 mexspots and a geo in nano range. Increasing cost won’t fix that

trim glen
#

Make a time restriction depending on the number of players? The bigger the lobby the longer the nuclear peace treaty xd

shut stratus
#

I feel like a t1 antinuke would make nukes completely useless overall

paper salmon
shut stratus
#

Cuz everyone would just build multiple to be safe if it was too cheap and there would be no viable way to use nukes

gusty wasp
opal willow
#

Lmao sorry rofl

#

I can’t even

gusty wasp
#

np

pure crypt
#

Buff nuke! Nerf anti! emohearthug

safe quest
#

Make t1 nuke !! 😀

next grove
#

Actually moving nuke to T3 could solve the problem, but it requires T3 con, which is followed with other T3 changes

#

So its sux, i still think, that making anti much cheaper but shouldnt be able to counter more then 1 nuke at a time or probably make mobile anti very cheap but short range and low RoF is aa good solution

#

It is sux that one anti makes almost any number of nukes obsolete

#

It was good in ota that two simultaneous nukes can overwhelm single anti so you have to have several anties in late game

gusty wasp
#

emp missile + nuke can still take care of a single anti

#

usually theres stuff to nuke even when the first antis get up

opal willow
charred swift
#

Bro, his maps are good

#

Just gotta adapt

#

The maps are symmetrical

spiral junco
#

Nikuksis' maps are fine.

gusty wasp
#

whether you like it or not... i dont see how high metal spots are related to nuke rushes. typically its a guy in the back doing the nuke, and guy in the front getting the big mexes

#

sure, potentially everything is linked with proper teamplay and sharing resources to nuke faster, but thats not the usual way ppl play

next grove
#

more slowdown for an anti

#

the real shit is com sacrifice for T2, that makes techers too op

#

in any map

#

and makes people not fight but sit and build damn afuses and nukes at 10 minute

#

you will never see this shit in 1v1s

zinc breach
gusty wasp
#

who balanced nukes for 1v1... caydr when making AA?

opal willow
#

It’s been a 20 year balancing. Nikuksis maps have too many resources and feel like half metal maps. Specially the amount of geos is over the top. You can snowball so quickly

mighty jasper
#

that's what makes them so good

#

the only spot that bothers me is the ice scream tech spot, because it's at the very back of an extra wide map and is inaccessible by ground, so it's essentially immune from harass

robust idol
#

14 min nuke in a game. yup getting worse.
suggestion make a T3 contruction vehicle that does nukes. that would really slow it down.

fervent junco
#

lmao t3 tech into nuke cons reclaim t3 lab 18mins nuke new meta

robust idol
#

or make repair reclaim building power 120 instead of 200. then all building would be slowed.

shadow wigeon
#

Nuke cost is balanced and the anti nukes are adequate to it, changing nuke cost would not only affect the nuke rush tactics but could drastically affect gameplay generally.

next grove
opal willow
#

No that’s not what I am talking about. The value of the individual mexes can be reduced

next grove
#

it was for old ATG

#

like many +1.7 mex

#

and everyone complains it is too little

opal willow
#

1.7 is reasonable

#

It means you have to fight for more mexes and not sit in base

next grove
#

i agree about ice scream

#

when i made this spot i mostly think it will be like air spot

opal willow
#

Just remove Geo there and that spot is ok

#

Perhaps remove a mex too

next grove
#

yeah i could move geo to the mid

#

or remove it

opal willow
#

The new map with left vs bottom also has too many geos

#

If you rush an adv geo there you snowball too quickly upgrading the other goes

next grove
#

like forge map have as well

opal willow
#

Can your next map not have this feature:)

#

Like bismuth

next grove
#

bismuth has insane amount of metal iirc 😄

opal willow
#

Yes

#

But good amount of geo

#

It’s cool to have a variety of maps with different features

#

But you like geos and metal 😄

next grove
#

i hate how geos is used to tech, id like it to be more like help for a frontmates

#

for example on supreme strait there a geo on the main land

opal willow
#

It’s ok if it’s risk reward

next grove
#

which was meant to help fight the bridge

#

but CJ abused it to make nuke rush on that spot as well

#

i admit that my maps could have rebalance in resource, but i really don't like the way people can eat their comms to fund their T2 and eco

#

and also eco balance in BAR compared to TAesc (MMs and afus and nanoforest effectiveness )

#

that makes tech too powersful instead of massive T1/T2 fights

#

for the mexes

opal willow
#

It’s balanced around 1v1 and there you will rarely find t2 or even afus farms

next grove
#

afus could not be balanced for 1v1 since its not used there...

opal willow
#

Have you seen the finals of the 1v1 tournament?

next grove
#

nope

#

well that depends on map, death valley could have some afus probably

#

but in most 1v1s maps its just T1

wooden charm
#

then it just means geo isnt balanced

#

cause geos are usually op eco boosters

wooden charm
#

2 of those games had nukes

next grove
#

ok i will just make +1.0 3 mex per player next time

#

to prevent any nukes

#

that will just slow down the entire game and everyone will sit like on the greenfields until nuke come at 60 minute

#

from all my mapmaking expirience i learnd that lowering resource just slows the game and makes fights less intense and people gonna just sit and wait for an eco, becuase reclaim becomes too valuable

#

that will just moves nuke from 12 minute to 20-30 etc. and not solve the problem because it will be just slower everything...

#

BAR just lacks of ecofarmer punishment tools, you could sit and build that geo in the middle of the supreme strait and noone can reach you

#

anyway i don't know what we are discussing here, when BAR just never get its balance changes, like it is formed in concrete. all i can do is changing like every may map, and that wont help imo

#

even DSD with it's 3 mex per player without geo has nukes and nuke rushes, it is just a bit later (and it is harder to get anti as well)

opal willow
#

Why not remove nukes if you don’t like them? You can deactivate them in host settings

next grove
#

its not me who started that topic

#

i just don't like techers at all

#

but thats a problem of comm eating imo

#

it is not geo problem (just for ice scream probably)

#

see Forge map, it has like 10 geos per team, and theres no nukes and barely even T3 in 8v8s

opal willow
#

Lmao

#

Forge map the front players often have more eco than the back players due to geos

#

They use them to kickstart afus farm in the back

#

And go t3 😄

#

Can you make some green maps? Like riverdale? Or the like the original greenhaven?

next grove
#

its better then it is like on DSD when you're at 3 mex trying to hold frontlite with T1 and LLTs and got nuked from the damn one-click techer

#

who ate his comm

#

or not nuked but send shitton of morties

#

and you have two rockos and 3 llts

opal willow
#

This is where team play and communication get important. If you play 8v8 you may always be in the situation that you have to fight and someone else may have vastly more eco than you

#

You can’t extra front player to do everything

wooden charm
#

people haven made nukes

#

on forge

#

row rushes berthas there now

#

lmoa

next grove
#

bertha wont kill you in one click

wooden charm
#

then u havent seen

#

a game

#

moho geos dead in 3 shots

#

cant bnuild sheilds

#

that fast

next grove
#

that's good

wooden charm
#

even with 50 nanos

#

lmao

next grove
#

don't build moho geos on this clusters

wooden charm
#

rofl

next grove
#

theres arm safe geos

#

use it

wooden charm
#

lmao then therees anti nuke

#

use it

#

this arguement so op

#

lmao

next grove
#

but NOOOO why should i make this if i can build chain shit in my base

#

for extra +200e

wooden charm
#

its 500 e

#

theres a afus amount fo e diff

#

5 safe vs 5 moho u get 2.55e

next grove
wooden charm
#

2.5k e

#

theres no nuke at t1 also

next grove
#

but hazardous geos is your choice

opal willow
#

Forge is a cool map but it’s almost like a metalmap

next grove
#

you want MOAR PAWAH!!!!

#

and you build nuke in your own base

opal willow
#

If you don’t enemy will and use that to get afus

next grove
#

noone ever use damn arm safe geos

wooden charm
#

flash does

#

frequently

opal willow
#

Can’t play core then?

next grove
#

flash is op

wooden charm
#

i just dont cause its too much of a diff

next grove
#

core OP cerberus on mid geos

wooden charm
#

plus us spend more for safe

next grove
wooden charm
#

i mean whole point to delay nuke is like to have longer games

#

why do u need longer games tho

#

rofl

#

longer games already everyone complains is so stale

opal willow
#

Sim city

wooden charm
#

yet this thread just supports to make the game longer

#

like

#

im losing braincells with each thread thats created at this point

next grove
#

delay nuke is not only for longer games, but to prevent oneclick win games

opal willow
#

Lmao cj

wooden charm
#

1 more guy wawnts air vision building

opal willow
#

If you scout nuke it’s easily counterable

wooden charm
#

dosent realise scouts do the same thing

#

like

next grove
#

and becuase its nothing you can do to counter it while you're still at T1 fighting front

wooden charm
#

ye ur techers

#

supposed

next grove
#

you can ask your techer to make anti

wooden charm
#

to help u make nait

opal willow
#

Als your ally to send mobile anti

wooden charm
#

ask shox

#

shox countered my ice scream nuke build twice

#

by making mobile antis

#

dont tell me there is no counter

#

i have made anti on 5 a solars

#

people are so greedy thinking anti can only be made after fus

next grove
#

anti requires at least T2 factory

opal willow
#

Basically on ice scream as soon as you get a t2 shared you build anti

wooden charm
#

dude

#

somebody

#

in ur team

#

will go t2

#

no

#

?

#

if they dont

next grove
#

ok

wooden charm
#

then u guys all ined

opal willow
#

Communication

wooden charm
#

or god knows whats happening

opal willow
#

It’s a team game

next grove
#

not me started this, i just think nukes are poorly balanced in BAR, since it is game ender in early games and useless in long games because anties too powerful

#

and can stop like 3-5 nukes alone

wooden charm
#

i have seen multiple games end with 10 nuke stack

#

rofl

next grove
#

yeah 10 nukes to overwhelm a single damn anti

wooden charm
#

ye but when it works

next grove
#

i think anti should be 1 for 1 nuke

wooden charm
#

its gg

#

tho

next grove
#

at is was in OTA

#

but in OTA you couldn;t build nuke at 11 minute

#

because you cant eat your comm and have 3k starting metal instead of 1

#

comm eating is also balanced for 1v1s? 😄

#

why do we have this even discussed

#

when result will be "don't try change the game for yourself" and no changes will be done anyway

#

I'm going to upgrade existing maps for now, and i will just remove any geos everywhere then lol because techer can easily take a front geo in any map and snawball just fine

opal willow
#

Leave forge the way it is. It is cool. But my suggestion for future maps to reduce metal a little and less geos

next grove
#

As we discussed yesterday in the mapping channel we hit the state when we have like too much maps

#

I will try to ficus on updating old ones now

#

You can put your suggestions what and how to update first

faint flare
#

less resources for back players, geos makes them snowball so fast to nuke rush or t3

next grove
opal willow
#

You know Absolute Annihilation stopped being maintained in 2006 and spawned Balanced Annihilation

#

It’s literally 20 years

next grove
#

OK, so there was 10 changes 😄

next grove
opal willow
#

I get a comwreck on the frontline 50% of the time

weary mauve
weary mauve
zinc breach
#

It is already the apocalypse for 50k metal

gusty wasp
#

its dps is really abt your e prod

#

you can build it before having capacity to fire it at 100% constantly

weary mauve
gusty wasp
#

that protects a single location

weary mauve
#

Beacuse you will usualy need one, max three locations where canon can do serious damage to you.

dire dove
#

I think the balance of nukes and nuke defenses is pretty good as is tbh. At the highest levels, one player on the enemy team can get nukes out at 12 minutes, but all the games that most of us are in, you RARELY see them before 20-22 minutes. Honestly I see WAY more games where nukes just kind of do nothing because everyone has nuke defenses than games where nukes were useful. Even then, they usually get one shot off and are blind firing it. I've been in maybe one game where a nuke came out early enough to wipe somebody's base before 20 minutes. If your base gets wiped after 20-25 minutes, it just means you didn't build nuke defenses, which are WAY cheaper to build.

And before some people mention that they are focusing hard on T1 front line combat, it's very common for the back line eco player(s) to build nuke defenses for the 1-2 players who can't get them up before 18 minutes. Just takes communication and teamwork. Nuke defenses are much cheaper than nukes, so they can pretty much always be built first.

zinc breach
#

Its the 11, 12, 13 minute nukes that need to stop

#

Nukes that happen that early are game winning

#

And lots of maps support it

dire dove
# zinc breach Its the 11, 12, 13 minute nukes that need to stop

I totally understand. I guess then that its the classic balancing conundrum: Nerf something that pro level players can use very effectively, while making it pretty much useless for low-mid tier players, or leave it very strong for pro players and just viable for low-mid.

zinc breach
#

So either we change the maps or we change the nuke itself

zinc breach
#

I doubt an increased cost will warrant nonviability in low skill

dire dove
#

@zinc breach Well, yes, for complete noobs it wouldn't make a difference. But for the players who grasp the mechanics and are good at the game, just nowhere near pro level, nukes are already kind of a "don't build them or your team gets mad because you're wasting resources" kind of thing, since it can be very difficult to pull off in 12-ish minutes. Most pub lobbies have them up reliably around 18-20 minutes. Increasing the cost to the point that would satisfy what you're looking for would definitely have an effect here.

I completely get what you're saying, I'm not even saying it's wrong, just that either way it's going to be hard to balance with skill levels.

Maybe an alternate way to balance? A new anti-nuke building that is much cheaper but only can stockpile one nuke defense and has a smaller range? I know that is not the way to go as it would be easily abused but something more in that line of thinking than just straight cost tampering?

distant jolt
# weary mauve Yes, but three def shields counter it. And they ARE cheaper than canon. Even if ...

3 shields do not counter a lolcannon, they only buy some time. Even 3 shields on same spot will eventually fail to a lolcannon sustained fire, and sometimes building 3 shields to protect one spot is actually a very bad decision because it will give extra range to the lolcannon for as long as the shields are buying time xD (btw the lolcannon dedicated discussion is here => #1093224316927234160 message)

weary mauve
distant jolt
#

shields buy some time, but they do not counter lolcannons, no matter how many you build. Shields counter regular LRPC and flagships though

#

the more shields you have built before the lolcannon starts firing, and the more time you can buy, but as soon as lolcannon fires on your shields they will not replenish fast enough no matter how many you have, and eventually will fail

pseudo cliff
# dire dove <@160512844583010305> Well, yes, for complete noobs it wouldn't make a differenc...

I think t1/cheaper anti nuke is easily abused that nukes will no more be viable in any capacity. I think an option is to have the commander be the anti nuke: turning him inactive/dead after he fires the antinuke option then to revive him, one will need to pay the full or half of 2k metal and energy cost to revive him.. This will make it so there's still a heavy price to pay that will make nuke cost worth it early game but lessen its rush game ending potential..

solemn kestrel
#

I have seen a few sentiments like "just use teamwork to counter nuke rush, your backline eco player should build anti-nuke for you"

But that is bad game design. You do not need teamwork to nuke rush. You just need defending, just like any other eco/tech player. It should not take teamwork to counter a solo strategy.

And relying on the eco player to defend you against nukes means the nuke defense is too expensive.
5 asolar = 375 e income = 1:47 doing nothing except making an anti-nuke

#

For what the anti-nuke does, makes an enormous radius immune from ~5 simultaneous nuke missiles, it is priced well

#

But it just feels bad that you can't do anything against nukes before you have a fusion reactor.

#

Similar to pre-nerf tac missiles. It just feels bad to have zero options against something, other than an all-in suicide attack to charge and kill the silo.

#

Hence, my suggestions to have lower priced nuke mitigation strategies.
Imperfect nuke defense, but something you can do with pre-fusion energy income.

#
  1. Decoy anti-nuke for mind games.
  2. cloaked single-shot anti-nuke.
  3. Laser point-defense anti-nuke to airburst the nuke and reduce the damage radius.
  4. Small radius "Iron dome" to make a small area immune or resistant to a single nuclear explosion nearby.
  5. Nuke deflector to deflect the missile away from its original target
  6. A cheap radiation detector to reveal the location of nuclear missile silos, so you can better initiate teamwork
opal willow
#

The problems you are stating only occur in big team games. Nuke is meant to be an endgamer no? To wipe out a literal base. If you make the counter too easy no one will build it anymore

gusty wasp
#

how much worse nuke have to be for it to have a negative effect on small games?

wooden charm
#

Isnt mobile anti not seen if u have no vision of it

warm dagger
#

Strong E maps help the nuke rush more than m

#

Cause without geo or amazing wind

#

You need a fusion to nuke rush

#

Also I'd emphasize recovery more than anything else for countering nuke rush

#

People are so bad at getting BP after losing everything

#

And a couple nano drops alone can save 3 minutes

faint flare
#

well now that almost all latest maps gives techers geo or 2, plus 5-6 mexes it's easy to rush it

warm dagger
#

Yet my fastest nukes are reliably on strait

#

Not on Rosetta or ice-cream

wooden charm
#

ye i anounced yest supreme strait has fastest now

faint flare
#

just need to tweak maps a bit to nerf techers and give anti again +200e again, i think it was removed bcs we had arma in ba when dsd was only played map

gusty wasp
#

if it's maps that are the problem... whats the example of maps where nuke gameplay is just right, and playing them would be more boring if nuke was nerfed a bit

fluid merlin
#

Maybe bismuth valley, 8 horses, flats and forest, anything without a dedicated techer or tech/geo combo

dire dove
#

I think I agree that the maps are the best solution. Granted the community makes the maps so I'm not expecting that to change, just saying that being aware of nuke strategies in the way you design your maps is a huge factor. I don't think altering nuke pricing is ideal, same with the anti-nukes, as they're well worth the cost. However I think it's worth considering a cheaper but imperfect way to defend against nukes. The problem is, if you allow for cheaper but crappier nuke defenses, people will just spam them in place of the normal ones. Maybe a build limit? Some other mitigating factors? Would have to be balanced. I personally like the idea Itanthias gave of deflecting it, but it wouldn't work because you'd likely just deflect it into an ally's base, depending on the map. That would be WAY worse, and probably cause a lot of sat. But I feel like this sort of thought train is a good one to investigate

opal willow
#

Strangely enough no one complains about nuke on speed metal

zinc breach
opal willow
#

So the speed is not the issue

zinc breach
#

Resource cost is the issue

#

Which is why the tread is called increase cost

#

In a game where both sides have unlimited resources like speed metal it doesn't matter obviously

opal willow
#

Is the nuke an issue on green fields?

#

On comet?

zinc breach
solemn kestrel
#

In regards to the map issues, it is the techer having access to a geo for faster exponential growth than the other players, and the other lower resourced players not having good/fun/interactive options to deal with it.
Metal maps, everyone has the same growth rate, and the generally compressed timescales punishes the fixed stockpiling time of nukes

opal willow
#

On horus?

willow mango
#

Does nukes need to get balanced to low metal and energy maps or high ones?!?!

zinc breach
#

8v8 is where the problem lies, I'm sure if I had an 8v8 on comet it'd be an issue there too

opal willow
#

I am proving the point that the issue is not the nuke but the map

zinc breach
#

Its 8v8

opal willow
#

So it’s an issue on bismuth?

wooden charm
#

cant have nuke nuke on the maps sabu metioned lmao

zinc breach
wooden charm
#

cause ur team dies so fast

#

take 8 horses

#

i got nuked by north

#

andd he died straight after

opal willow
#

What about flats and Forrest

zinc breach
#

Basically every 8v8 u can have a nukerush my guy

wooden charm
#

in maps where there are techers dedicated

#

u cant lmao

solemn kestrel
#

Bismuth just makes the risk-reward of nuking more extreme.
Harder to pull off due to lack of front presence, but if it works, it is way harder to get complete anti coverage in that time.

zinc breach
#

You can if your lane is protected or your against a non aggressive person

wooden charm
#

well whatever if there are techers on boths sides melk

#

the techers job is to get anti

opal willow
#

Should nukes end games

#

Or should they be just fireworks

wooden charm
#

plus do uk how much of a waste is if the nuke misses

#

its 9k metal and counting

zinc breach
#

My point is saying it's just cause bad maps is bad. It's not entirely map dictated

#

It is easy to pull off in a lot of maps that are 8v8

opal willow
#

Tell me which is a non bad map

zinc breach
#

And since 8v8 is by far most common gametype it should be adjusted to not be as strong

#

Sabutai do you not play the same game as me or something

opal willow
#

No

zinc breach
#

Kk

solemn kestrel
#

You can reclaim the silo, to bootstrap most of an afus.
Best nuke rushers I see only ever plan on launching a couple of nukes, then reclaim into a standard afus tech play.

#

Not sure on exact numbers, but probably not much worse than a failed air bombing raid

zinc breach
#

But even if first nuke faild u could still use nuke to hit front porc/army or something, so it can pay off even if u can't get juicy back player

mighty jasper
#

how about we discuss this issue without harassing the hell out of our most prolific and talented map maker, god damn.

zinc breach
#

Yeah sabutai should just make his own maps

mighty jasper
#

that fact that nuke rushes are a little broken on some of the most fun and dynamic 8v8 maps we've seen is clearly not a problem with the maps themselves, it's that resource-rich and dynamic maps allow balance in the game to be exploited in an unfun way by certain players

#

that should be addressed by the unit and economy balance of the game, not going back to dsd

wooden charm
#

lets bar chess guys

#

its where all units now are perfectly balanced

#

no room for metagaming

willow mango
#

Yeah meta is unfair! 😄

zinc breach
#

Not changing units to fit evolving meta == letting ur game die imo

opal willow
#

Evolving meta would mean something changed. Only thing changed regarding the nuke is the maps that are played. The maps are fun. It’s good to have some diversity. But the maps are kinda sameish. How about some low metal maps. Or maps where more sea comes to play.

#

Who is harassing a map maker?

charred idol
#

Nuke rush and nuke spam are fun killers. No one wants to be deleted before they can do anything, or by their several anti nukes simply not firing quick enough (at the same targets?) to counter 10+ nuke silos firing at the same time, always allowing several to get through.

#

Is that the problem though? Do several anti nukes target the same nukes, so it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 5 anti nuke silos, if the enemy has x+1 nukes, your anti nukes simply don't have enough rate of fire to target all?

opal willow
#

Overnuke is an extreme late game meta. It’s about overwhelming the rate of fire of an anti

#

There is always the slightest possibility that a missile doesn’t hit

wooden charm
#

if u have 1 anti nuke it can take about 4-6 nukes dependin on map size if u have 5 anti nukes in same place it can take upto 20-24 nukes

opal willow
#

This may happen if there is a hill in the way but also if the timing is not sufficient

wooden charm
#

mind u the nukes have to be fired at the same time

solemn kestrel
#

Anti-nukes are smart enough to coordinate to not shoot multiple interceptors at each missile.

gusty wasp
opal willow
#

In general games would take longer to end

wooden goblet
#

all 3 games ive had on ice someone nuke rushes

#

im newer player but its insanely annoying that the player on the top is impossible to punish

#

again newer player pespective but maps seem like the problem to me

gusty wasp
pure crypt
misty smelt
next grove
#

in short in bar air is so bad, that people in 8v8 games forget about AA at 20 minute and then dying to T1 bombers...

pure crypt
opaque linden
#

Can't get this thougt out of my head for some reason so I feel i got to write it or its gonna haunt me

Icescream could be changed such thay the geo is only reachable by air and the back spaces walkable space so small that blowing comm up there is gonna blow your base up.

next grove
#

it is op because people don't make AA

next grove
#

im going to nerf air spot on ice scream

opaque linden
#

I know or ask a front player to blow

next grove
#

i see this is a map issue

frank night
#

invent "cheaper" disposable anti nuke. 1 shot, small range, destroys itself on firing, so can't be reclaimed.

mighty jasper
#

just make nukes cost 2k more metal, ez fix

gusty wasp
#

any balance issue is really a map issue in a way. But that doesn't mean you should only be changing the maps - since how ppl play the game is really all about the maps, really what balancing of the game is there for is to allow for the maximum types of maps to be fun to play

#

and if the popular type of 8v8 map is less fun because of constant nuke rushes, thats a problem

#

if ppl really like this type of map other than the nuke rushes, but other types of maps dont actually suffer from a nuke nerf, then it seems reasonable thing to do

#

2k m more cost sounds rly excessive tho, just giving ppl a bit more window to do smth should be enough

next grove
mighty jasper
#

yeah nukes can still be rushed sub-13m on lots of maps, some maps make the issue more obvious but clearly the problem is deeper, 13m is far far sooner than most non-tech players can conceivably make an anti, and it's a lot sooner than a techer can distribute antis to other players especially on larger maps

#

it makes a nuke rush with scouting a nearly 100% guaranteed deletion of 1-2 bases

#

The only reason it's not seen more is because overall it's a very boring strategy. I really enjoy playing the tech role and I do it often, but I've literally never nuke rushed simply because I find it unfun.

frank night
#

make it easily overwhelmed, since we're not talking about nuke spam rush 😅

#

but at the moment you gotta build the t2, then build it, then watch it generate the anti-missle

#

and it already has the smaller range.

opaque linden
frank night
dire dove
#

I've got an idea... What about a semi expensive T1 tower or early T2 tower that doesn't launch a counter missile, but tracks the nuke with a laser. Here's the kicker. They only destroy the nuke just above your base, so no matter how many you build they don't have time to destroy more than one.

Also once the nuke explodes above your base, have it still damage the area inside the target zone to a significantly smaller degree. Enough to destroy pawns and cheap building but leave the big stuff intact. Could be reasoned as a shockwave damage kind of thing. That way it's easily negated with 2 nukes, so the numbers aren't completely countered, making standard anti nukes still a necessity. It also is still doing some damage so the nuke wasn't a waste. Maybe the nuke does bonus damage to military units, so everything up to T1 light tanks get destroyed but everything heavier is just damaged.

As an alternative point, maybe the nuke defenses can defend more than 1 nuke, but since damage is seeping through you run the risk of an explosive building going up, so spamming this defence instead of standard nuke defenses would naturally be discouraged.

Could be tweaked to be balanced properly.

Worth considering?

onyx thicket
frank night
#

what if we just make the mobile anti- nuke come out of the factory with an anti nuke already in it?

warm dagger
#

Here's the thing, if you're playing against a nuke rush, that person has guaranteed no impact for 13 minutes and slow scale after

#

No bombers, no units, no afus, no saving units, no self antinuke

#

An afus+anti beats a nuke

#

A gantry and 10 marauder comes out same timing as 2nd nuke

#

10 marauder rush can kill 2 bases on average

#

18 nano, 6 labs, 600 ticks gains mega map control, m reclaim, and potential com snipes and base kills

#

Nuke gives no reclaim or map control(initial launch)

#

I'd say biggest value of nuke rush, #1 value of nuke, is you can target based on PLAYER

#

It's like com dropping top ts

#

That's the true max value of nuke

opal willow
#

The last 2 years nuke was never an issue

warm dagger
#

Nuke also had massive swings

#

Does 0 or wins 40% each

#

20% it's like medium value

#

So it averages fine

#

But thay 40% it wins, it is the factor

mighty jasper
#

I see people complaining about nuke a lot more than I see nukes having a big impact on a game tbh. And I watched a game last night where 3 people rushed nukes

#

I honestly cannot remember the last game I saw where an early nuke on a players base actually determined the outcome of a game

warm dagger
#

I nuke rush as a 37 ts, have quite good success

#

But it's just a build order

#

If nuke was an issue solely

#

We'd have massive TS inflation of nuke rushers

#

Show me that data

#

Who's the noob copying a YouTube build winning games

mighty jasper
#

Yeah. If you're an op techer you'll be able to determine the outcome of a good portion of your games whether you go nuke, air, t3, or something else

warm dagger
#

No

#

Why?

#

Again, build orders aren't TS based

#

Past a point

#

I can teach the average 20 TS My build orders

mighty jasper
#

huh? I never said they were

#

I'm saying if you are a high skill player in a tech position you can determine the outcome of a game with non-nuke strategies just as well as with nuke strategies

warm dagger
#

You said I'd determine the game nuke rushing

mighty jasper
#

more so, in my opinion

warm dagger
#

But if half my ts can nuke rush

#

How's that OP

mighty jasper
#

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I'm saying I don't think nuke rushes are broken

warm dagger
#

I'm saying they are broken, but Noone is breaking them

mighty jasper
#

I think they're kind of lame and I would not mind a nuke nerf for that reason, but I don't think they set the state of a game any more than an air rush or a t3 rush or whatever

warm dagger
#

Because they're not hard

#

And they're huge impact

#

Bomber builds are both harder to do

#

And harder to execute

mighty jasper
#

I agree with that

opal willow
#

Bomber rush is 8 minutes

warm dagger
#

Bomber rush is any minute that counters someone's build

opal willow
#

And can basically wipe 2 bases

warm dagger
#

3 4 6 8 9 11

#

That's why it's skill based

#

Nuke is one timing

opal willow
#

Bombers counter nuke

warm dagger
#

One variable (did you scout first anti)

#

Yes

#

Much harder

#

A bomber is as likely to spread bomb a front player

#

At 20 TS

#

As they are to be 4 minutes behind the nuke for no reason

#

Same as the nuke timing and TS aren't that connected

#

Nuke rush has much cleaner value

#

You can hit an anti, do nothing

#

But next nuke does okay

#

Bombers tho, BP intensive af

#

Flak is basically anti nuke

#

AA builds faster than anti

opal willow
#

It’s not meta to build a preemptive flak

warm dagger
#

I can scout a bomber and have Sam's or flak within 30s

#

It is in plenty of circumstances

#

But a 800m flak is doable

#

As back rank

#

If you react to bomber scouted mid map vision

opal willow
#

Meta in 8v8 on maps with tech spots is for one to go air and one to go fusion. Air player can either bomb or scout for nuke

warm dagger
#

Also, high different in TS

#

Low ts build a lot od ground based AA

opal willow
#

Which gives you enough time to react to nuke

warm dagger
#

Higg tier does fighter shield

#

Fighter shield is way more breakable

#

In a lot of circumstances

warm dagger
#

That's a basic setup, but meta implies frequent play

#

Some maps have a tighter meta than others

#

Funny enough dsd back meta is way more fluid than many other popular maps now

#

Mostly cause it's dissimilar to most meta maps in the low M

#

And low replay compared to past

#

When you play 12 DSD full lobbies a day

#

You get a tight fucking meta

#

Every noob is basically playing right

#

You see rapid development of meta and counter meta

#

Nukes get bombed, bombers get air shielded, 4vs4 bottom becomes 3v4 with a tech rush, becomes 3v3, becomes 5v3 t1 rush

faint tiger
# warm dagger Here's the thing, if you're playing against a nuke rush, that person has guarant...

no necessarly no impact, with like 6 t2 mex & extra energy on top, after I finished nuke i usually just zero my red sliders resharing income on team.

i often like slower nuke builds and I find i get ~60 metal income after.

i do agree with rest of the points tho.

nuke can be problematic on big maps with high wind, like Tempest I feel like, since it's really hard to make AN everywhere and it can fire @ 13 min mark from complete safety (unless found and bombed).

i think nukes are situationally very strong, like big maps and/or geo spots

warm dagger
#

I've seen lobbies counter nukes in real time

#

Mobile anti is reasonable to pump front and antis in stable spots

#

Investment and return

#

Fastest nuke I ever launched got hit by anti

#

If I wanted to balance nuke with minimal change, I'd lower e cost of antinuke

#

Because e scale of first 20m is tough

faint tiger
#

instead cheapening AN still requires you do be diligent and make the AN in the first place

warm dagger
#

Anti is trivial after a point, just depends how lazy you are to creep them to front lines and have overlapping Anti to cover emp/bombs/stealth

#

But the early game Anti coverage is a bit pricey on E

#

I built 5 mobile Anti once in a game to counter a nuke rush. I got nuked cause the first 4 loaded were in other bases emothinxD

next grove
#

let's just set commander-end by default. Lost commander - resigned.
That could help in nuke rush/ combombing and other cheese 🙂

warm dagger
#

Ehh it fucks some maps hare

#

Dsd type maps a com blow buys 3 or 4 minutes

#

But high eco maps, if you plan to keep com and build right you barely lose time

onyx thicket
#

i wonder what our ranking system would look like if that happens

warm dagger
#

But lime Rosetta or strait you barely need to blow com

onyx thicket
#

because being resigned too early from the end of the match doesnt give you ranking update on win

warm dagger
#

Could just do no self d com

#

Would be a great game

next grove
#

starting metal 3k for everyone!

warm dagger
#

Ew

#

Need slow reclaims in bases

next grove
warm dagger
#

Sure

#

That at least takes some coordination

next grove
#

probably lower comm wreck further to 1k also could work

warm dagger
#

Could make enemy damage only for wrecks

#

Zzz

next grove
#

though it will make combombs easier

warm dagger
#

Well, that effects Frontline

#

I don't think com metal an issue

next grove
#

it is free T2 lab for techer

#

i think without comm wreck it is like +50% for nuke rush time

#

to be honest, this thread is active for how long i'm playing BAR. and the most significant change i remember was lowering comm wreck value (i think it was 2500 one day)
i doubt anything will be changed (though im gonna change some maps)

#

actually i kinda love techer theme in BAR. that give people roles in game, in comparison to OTA where everyone just spam shit at enemy (basically flashes and samsungs)

#

we just have to balance maps a bit to give frontline guys more sense to control the map and not make techer too op

mighty jasper
#

I think overall the tech/frontline role dynamic is quite healthy in BAR rn, there are just some small tweaks needed to things like nukes and lolcannon

#

I really enjoy those high eco maps, they are a nice contrast to the traditional metal starved maps like dsd

spiral junco
#

I think lowering comm metal could be interesting, just gotta be careful how low. I feel like 1500m might not be awful.

warm dagger
#

not enough BAR games are played

#

nor enough "builds" exist

#

to say anything close to "lolcannon or nuke" are op

#

teams meta and timings are so inconsistent

#

we need to actually see a playstyle dominates to change anything

#

any other RTS would have 10-100x the games played

#

to study meta and OP issues

mighty jasper
#

it is still a small game, but you can't balance for a game that might exist with a stronger meta, you just have to balance the game as it is now

#

when a stronger meta develops balance can adjust

warm dagger
#

no, because the game is self balancing

#

if nuke rushing gets op

spiral junco
#

It does feel like as of late, the meta is shifting to faster and faster. T1 and T2 are starting to feel pretty short, but that might just be me

warm dagger
#

ppl get bombed

#

and I've seen no evidence of ppl pure nuke rushing and gaining big TS

mighty jasper
#

I think that mostly has to do with higher metal and geo maps becoming more dominant

#

t3 still takes a long time to come out on dsd most games

#

you can rarely afford to pure tech for that long in a dsd game

spiral junco
#

That's fair. Though I feel DSD is too starved for my tastes. Gotta be a happy middle

mighty jasper
#

thats why rosetta and forge are my favorite 8v8 maps, metal rich enough to be really dynamic but with small enough area that there's a lot of skirmishing

wooden charm
#

rofl

mighty jasper
#

you see a lot of t1 play on rosetta in particular despite how metal rich it is

wooden charm
#

then wwe see how enjoyable the gamee is

#

really

spiral junco
#

yea, rosetta turns into a brawl in mid

mighty jasper
#

the mid area with no clear mex lines in particular helps a lot, there's not much of a specific spot to stop and build up porc

#

so the whole middle becomes a big dynamic battlefield

#

which is a ton of fun

pure crypt
onyx thicket
#

it wont be that bad

#

😄

opal willow
#

1v1 hardly sees any t2 or even t3

#

You shouldn’t judge just on 8v8 on metal rich maps

next grove
#

#🌍｜mapping message

distant jolt
frank night
#

I've concluded one of the most viable things I can do to ensure I win in the big team games if i don't have any other vets playing, is to tech up and out eco ASAP.

#

And then I feel like the new players are reacting by watching us put down defensive lines and teching up, so there's a race on to tech at the moment. Very little T1 horseplay

#

I mean, i get it that T2 and T3 are "cooler" too.

next grove
distant jolt
#

do I also see 2 metal spots for both of the back spots on land, instead of 3 previously?

dawn oyster
#

i dont think nuke rush are problem of back line resources, imo its problem of back line existing at all, people can sit for 20-30 minutes in safety and do literally anything and you can't really scout them, they can make any wincon but only nuke needs special tool to do anything about it

pseudo cliff
#

I just think having the option in your commander to sacrifice itself to be the anti-nuke one time is great.. Just imagine if you have this option on then your commander flies into the nuke to give one more chance but still paying heavy price.. This doesn't disrupt the 1v1 balance just the team games..

trim glen
#

It just goes full avengers iron man mode

#

Honestly sounds hilarious af

rose nimbus
#

Thank you, the mental imagery of commanders activating rocket boots superman flight mode is beautiful

pseudo cliff
pure crypt
next grove
#

even you some raiders are able to get to the backliner, he can pump few turrent in a secon with his nano forest or suck up your raiders with it

#

the only way is surprise bombers bombing the afus

#

that works sometimes, but if not - you're just waste a lot of time and resource

shrewd helm
#

Hmmm, t1 cloaked scouts with no emp or StarCraft style scan?

#

I guess scouting goes both ways, hunting for the nuke silo, and for the nuking player

misty smelt
#

Why does everybody want to kill the commander, pure guy.

warm dagger
#

Bombed the nuker, then nuked his corpse

shadow wigeon
#

brah

pure crypt
dawn oyster
#

invisible units countered by walls of grunts,air scouting are weird its or very expensive coz there like 2 needles or you can scout everyone for 20 minutes straight coz nobody builds any AA its unreliable at best

#

also invis units have not very big los so you not gona scout much anyway

rose nimbus
#

Ghost has a very decent 550 LoS

next grove
# pure crypt This is so not true. If you send scouts around 10m basically no one has AA yet s...

Ok probably scoutin gis possible. But in long term games even if you know where all the afus clusters are, you barely can do anything with that. And people keep making chaining clusters of them because the risk is very small.
LRPCs don't have enough range, bombers are just too weak (T2 bombers not much better then T1 bombers and can't pass through the AA, the only way is having like 500 fighters and send them in front of 100 bombers which take the entire game to make such a swarm)

#

in earlier versions of the game (i mean OTA/ TAEsc) air is way more powerful and microable and people don't make all the eco "in one basket" usually

#

and see SupCom as well. even tho it has op shield, its way easier to kill something in the back then in BAR

pure crypt
#

Idunno it just sounds like a skill issue at this point

next grove
#

where endgame is basically juggs spam from one side to another

pure crypt
#

There are so many ways to reach the back line

dawn oyster
#

AA invalidates air at fraction of the price

next grove
#

if the backline is so reachable, why am i keep seeing the afus stacks from top players?

#

noone spread them , even when the death of one means the end of game

pure crypt
#

Anyways back to topic. If your backliner is unable to make a mobile anti (1k metal) Vs a guy building a nuke (8k metal) it's a skill issue not a game issue. You can build like 7 antis for the price of 1 nuke

next grove
#

your backliner doesn't have spare 1k metal because he also doing the 8k nuke lol

pure crypt
#

Then play backline yourself and make anti op

next grove
#

yeah i think you're right, but some maps having this issue

#

already fixed for ice scream 2.5

pure crypt
#

What is changed?

next grove
#

air spot nerfed

pure crypt
#

How

next grove
#

-geo and -mex

pure crypt
#

Lol, now it's a lolcan map

dawn oyster
#

lolcan at 40 mins mark ok

pure crypt
#

You can do lolcan at 20 if you push for it lol

dawn oyster
#

with just 4 mex?

pure crypt
#

Yes

dawn oyster
#

i'm not so sure about that chief

pure crypt
#

Just send resbots to front to suck metal

dawn oyster
#

i mean that doesn't really count

pure crypt
#

Because the rest of the map does not exist?

dawn oyster
#

and front will most likely suck it them self

next grove
#

very short rage

#

you have to build it in the middle of the map

pure crypt
#

You don't need to shoot the whole map. If you break 1 side you win

next grove
pure crypt
#

Griefing not allowed OP

#

So you can suck metal while being protected by mods gg

dawn oyster
#

he just gona die coz he has less metal than enemy front line

pure crypt
solemn kestrel
#

Also, mobile anti costs ~3k additional metal if you have to make an off-plan factory to make the mobile anti

viscid python
#

One idea (not sure if mentioned already) would be to make silos slightly weaker (hp wise) and have them explode even larger when destroyed.

#

So if you rush early and are caught bombers can punish easily.

distant jolt
#

the window of time between when the nuke building is done building (and thus can explode) and the nuke is actually charged / launched is 120s (assuming ARM rush)... I don't think it'll change anything

spiral junco
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At this point I've changed my stance to agreeing that just making antinuke a bit cheaper on E would be the better solution if one is done

solemn kestrel
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Fusion reactor is ~20,000 e, while anti-nuke is ~40,000 e (and -83 e/sec once done)

faint flare
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give mobile anti 200 again, so it pays back for making it

soft leaf
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Gotta say I feel like I am coming around to the Nuke's are a bit fast side. It's too easy to just sit back and nuke when there is a team mismatch on one side of the map or another. It's more of an issue on the lower end of the skill tier, making anti nukes less overall taxing to build seems like a good idea, it would potentially put the focus more on nuking the front line and coordinating some kind of push rather than just taking out some poor dudes base that hasn't seem the same youtube builds as you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnNYo6awUT8

YouTube
BrightWorksGaming
Beyond All Reason - The 11 Minute Nuke Rush Guide!

Here's the best of my attempts at building, launching, and landing a nuke in the enemy's face on a popular map for the tactic; Ice Scream!

▶ Play video
distant jolt
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Ice Scream has already been updated though and it was the biggest offender so I suspect now we'll mostly be fine except maybe Supreme Strait

spiral junco
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Pretty sure rosetta can hit 11 mins and Supreme I think can do even earlier

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Rosetta is usually aggressive and rich enough its not a big deal though

misty smelt
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instead of getting nuked 11m in, you get nuked 13m in. damgamstonks

coarse tree
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Alternate idea

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make punishing nukerushes easier

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make the nuke structure have less hp and explode like an afus when killed

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5900/6200 hp is too much

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perhaps mix this with an increase in cost

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However if the general counter to nuke rushing should be to bomb/raid the nuke player

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A 5900/6200 hp structure is too much

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For comparison T2 labs are 4250/4500

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combine that with the fact they could have nanos repairing it

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alternatively if they're smart and the nuke is left on >5% hp after a pass of bombers they could reclaim it using the ~7 nanos

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I'd argue significantly decreasing the health of arm nuke and maybe a more moderate decrease in the health of core nuke would be justified

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combined with mixing the nukes to have an afus size explosion on destruction

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while also leaving no wreck

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if you force a nuke rusher to invest in significant AA it would also slow down the nuke rush

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As it is now, its quite hard to kill a nuke with the bombers available at 11-15 minutes

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the nuke player, if they were smart and spread out their nanos to make them resistant to bombing, can just plop down an AA after the bombers are sighted

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I'd argue forcing the nuke player to preemptively make AA or otherwise be at large risk would be a good way to nerf nukes

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As it is now, even if the nuke dies to bombers, the nuke player can just reclaim the large metal wreck and start afus teching

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there's a significant mismatch is the risk/reward

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loosing the nuke isn't even a massive setback

distant jolt
distant jolt
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even with an ultra-lean build based on converters, I doubt we'll see efficient nuke rushes (and the lean build sacrifices basically everything to push the nuke out, so that means you are not in a good spot to transition to air/eco afterwards)

soft leaf
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@coarse tree I actually rather like the solution of making the nuke silo's easer to kill, I think it does something to incentivize scouting and if something like 3-5 t1 bombers can kill it in a pass or two then you achieve the slow down effect by offering a trade off of do I rush or do I be safe

coarse tree
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yes please I came to this conversation somewhat late but I do seriously think my recommendation is one of the better ways forwards

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perhaps mix decreasing health with some for of cost increase

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however I think decreasing health and making it explode like an afus is a really good idea

spiral junco
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I dont really see it being much use though? You cant really scout a nuke rush early, it just looks like a tech. So you have to scout it for the 1-2 mins it's building/making a nuke. Which by then you've just got bombers in the wings? Sounds like you'd really just end up blind bombing and getting lucky with it. Nukes while teching are already pretty vulnerable to bombing.

fluid merlin
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If you have an air player usually it's not a problem to scout at the correct timing for the map to look for nukes or other tactics with timings between 7 and 10 minutes. maybe if you plan to scout a nuke rush map you scout too late to see a bombing run, but.. you also metagame the players for what you know their habits and playstyles to be, right?
I think the concern that it's actually impossible to get antis up in time for everyone, even if it is scouted, on large maps like ice scream is legit to some extent. I don't think it's a strategy that should have some guarantee to do damage. Should still be possible if sneaky - like asking your own air player to make fighters so you don't get scouted.

mighty jasper
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just give the nuke launcher a range that's smaller than the length of ice scream 🙃

dawn oyster
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nuke now only 5k range

pine current
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people don't build enough mobile anti nukes too. They're pretty cheap for what they do.

solemn kestrel
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I swear, if mobile anti-nukes is what it takes for people to start making cortex T2 vech instead of T2 bots...

pine current
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tired of fiends and sheldons all the time ? 🙂

next grove
next grove
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there's pretty much of balance issues in BAR imo, but it barely will be fixed. So just accept it and make OP shit yourself.

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fiends/sheldons and 11 minute nukes

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and other shit which we will see only in 10ts lobbies

opal willow
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How are they not balanced

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Hounds beat sheldons

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And fiends

next grove
opal willow
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Jaguars also beat both

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Vehicle artillery beats sheldons

next grove
wooden charm
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fiends only hvae a small windo

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of what

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they can impact

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jaguars can beat fends

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easily