#Flea vs vehicle scouts

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

novel rapids
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Fleas have a very high turnrate, turret turn rate and accuracy compared to vehicle scouts.
A player would expect more expensive units to be stronger, but you need around 4-5 vehicle scouts to kill 2 fleas, i suggest giving veh scouts more accuracy and turret turn rate, any opinions?

tight garnet
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Nerf Flea DPS:

Tick: 40 DPS / 15m (2.67)
Rascal: 35 DPS / 26m (1.35)
Rover: 38 DPS / 31m (1.23)

Grunt: 74 DPS / 36m (2.06)
Pawn: 100 DPS / 48m (2.08)

Flea should literally have DPS reduced 50%. It doesn't even take that many to kill a Commander and they're impossible to dgun because they're so many.

novel rapids
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im not sure if DPS takes accuracy in consideration, vehs would be even lower when they miss

buoyant spear
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as an arm player, I love fleas, but I agree something seems off about the balance with them

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they can literally run circles around some of the vehicle scouts

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and I opened vehicle last night, and I swear taking out a mex with the vehicle scout felt like it took substantially longer

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dunno exactly what's going on, but tick feels faster, stronger, and cheaper

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it's not a trade-off, it's just better

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i'd be supportive of the tick keeping manoeuvrability and speed (and getting extra dps though flanking), but at the moment it's too cheap and powerful vs the vehicle scouts

prime hornet
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vec scout needs 6 shots (6 seconds) to kill a mex.
flea needs 9 shots (5.4 seconds) to kill a mex.
Both of these should be less when flanking is accounted for (running around the back of the mex after the first shot)

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And should be less once laser damage falloff is accounted for

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One thing I'm now sure how to quantify, is I feel like a single flea "flanks" things like mexes better. Almost like the flanking direction updates slower or something, due to fire rate or damage per shot.

buoyant spear
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does the flea turret turn rate/accuracy affect things in "drive-bys"?

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one of the reasons the tick can win vs a vehicle one on one is being able to close distance and manoeuvre faster than the vehicle's turret can track it

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but a secondary effect might be that as the tick closes distance and that angle gets more acute... the tick turret allows for more shots closer/ quicker to the target

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(this is under the assumption that the tick turret really is quicker, which is how it feels to me)

buoyant spear
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and that might give an extra "hidden" bonus when targets are moving relative to each other (both in terms of flanking + less laser dropoff)

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(and scouts are presumably comparatively in motion relative to their targets, even when dealing with statics)

prime hornet
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armflea = 450 degrees/sec weapon turn rate
vech scouts = 200 degrees/sec weapon turn rate

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armflea = targetmoveerror = 0.1,
vech scouts = targetmoveerror = 0.2,

tight garnet
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Tick DPS is 2x as high as other scouts, just in raw DPS.

Then you add the flanking bonus, which ticks will get way more due to a) being faster and more maneuverable, and b) being a cheaper unit so you can have more of them, totally OP.

buoyant spear
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I mean, I think they're an awesome unit, and part of this interplays with the discussion around pawn/grunt balance given the lack of a symmetrical bot scout for cortex, but I do think they're a bit strong, especially in comparison to the vehicle scouts

lofty verge
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isn’t the point that the vehicle one is either much faster or much tankier? (Depending on faction)

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Especially in arm’s case you both outspeed and outrange fleas, so you can kite them

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it makes sense to me that flea is more maneuverable as a bot

languid timber
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I mean the other thing is that fleas also do more damage and are cheaper I think?

Idk I think fleas are fine. Yeah they're like, really really good, but if they weren't, there wouldn't really be much of a reason to play arm

prime hornet
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Can you actually kite fleas using a scout vech?
Flea is hilariously more maneuverable (turn speed, acceleration) than vech scouts.

lofty verge
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Yeah you can, just can’t be reacting when flea is already in range

pastel lily
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they miss while kiting lmao

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their miss chance is absurd

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absurdly high

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everytime i see flea vs veh scout veh misses 3/5 shots

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lmao

pale dagger
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Veh scouts should now be a lot more accurate than before. I added continuous aim, increased turret turnrate 200->300, and removed the targetmoveerror

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Also increased the speed of cor veh scouts so they can actually catch up to fleas now

plucky rapids
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hmm, removed targetmoveerror is nice, idk about the rest

crisp briar
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changing dmg?

pale dagger
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Part of the reason for the changes is that the cor veh scout was too slow, having 30 less speed than the arm veh scout and only 6 more than a flea. Now its 15 less than the arm scout and 21 more than a flea, which seems more fair. Cor veh starts seem to be rare currently, so it seems like they could use the buff. Its also now more maneuverable than the arm scout, so each faction's scouts have their advantages.

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The other main reason is that the old stats don't make sense with the new model, as the new model looks a lot more fragile, and also looks like it should be getting some sort of use from the 3-wheel design, in this case extra turn speed.

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The small damage reduction is to make up for the improved targeting. It can actually be viable on some maps to make a large group of early veh scout and have them take out expansions and early tanks, didn't want to end up overbuffing that strategy

prime hornet
plucky rapids
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Played a bit with this, first impression is that it's just weird. Bad or good, idk, but makes you relearn the early game. Hard to say if these changes make veh scouts fare vs ticks better or not, mostly everything is just up in the air... They might miss less vs ticks, but it still happens (they also miss vs each other), and the lower damage can make them need another shot to make the kill

languid timber
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i played with arm scouts a bit, and imo they feel way better against ticks, but way worse against buildings. I'd say this is a generally positive change as far as how they feel to use, don't know if they're actually better

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I saw a few people say that veh scouts are super op now (clyret and goopy I think?) but not sure if its just hyperbole lol

stable holly
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it was just speculation so far

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I havent played with them yet

novel rapids
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has the targeting system also made faster recently? im trying to overrun barbarian AI with fleas and rovers to test but they seem to die faster

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all in all, thank you for the changes, feels a lot better now

novel rapids
unique lantern