It's time to rethink, Core - NFTs & Crypto

[solid quartz]

I've noticed he likes bright, vivid environments which the citadel has in bucket loads.

[versed charm]

Any idea how long it's going to last?

[drifting belfry]

no idea

[solid quartz]

You actually thought the world was a stable place eh? That life wasn't constantly on the tipping point between predictable and chaotic?

[tame blade]

Ask me to sign an NDA, fine I can understand. NFT functionality, I get it. Pivot to survive. But core world is now being supplanted, so I guess it’s true- all those updates were really just for the NFT people and not for anyone else. Even custom link feature is a privilege

[versed charm]

Yeah, I mean it's friggin' beautiful design that I think has that certain Funk to it.

[solid quartz]

It's that uptown funk lol

[solemn ivy]

funk is by far the best map-creator in core lol

[solid quartz]

Until 3Landers lobby.

What's the commission they've got lined up after that?

[versed charm]

I've missed the whole 3Landers thing. I'm aware of it, but noped out when the promos started saying things about linking wallets.

[solid quartz]

Honestly, I wouldn't drop hundreds on pounds on an NFT even if I did have that kind of disposable income.

[versed charm]

I think that's one of the things that makes this annoying, there is this divisive trend that runs among some advocates that saying anything that isn't praising web3 makes us totally against it. I'm not against it! I just know it's not for me at this point in my life, I have no tolerence for it. If I am to dump literally over 2k hours into a platform I have every reason to expect my creation not to be attributed, directly, to the inner workings of Web3 which I neither understand nor like.

If I'm to play on a platform, I will absolutely choose a platform that isn't asking me about metawallets or blockchain anything.

[solid quartz]

Oh there it s. Neo-Tokyo

[tame blade]

I would be happy with nfts. Just give us the regular streaming, community engagement, the updates we OG creators want. all the good stuff that suddenly went away when the nft word came into being on Core discords. It’s like nfts and good stuff can’t coexist.

[solid quartz]

NeoTokyo Citizens Floor Price Today
NTCTZN Floor Price 7.97999 ETH
Market Cap 16,630.29916 ETH

[versed charm]

...and I think, from the start, and possibly going forward, Core can have their cake and eat it to in that they could cater to both camps. They just didn't create a safe haven for anyone who isn't full tilt at Web3. So now it feels like we all need to be if we want to belong here.

[solid quartz]

Anyone got 8 grand laying around to get into the Neo Tokyo lobby? Lol

[versed charm]

Isn't it 128k for entry?

8 ETH x 16k USD?

[solid quartz]

Cheapest says 7.9 ETH

[umbral belfry]

You don't have to 🙂 I myself am not in the NFT Game, neither owning one nor do I have an account for anything related to NFT's.

[solid quartz]

That's like $1200 per ETH

[versed charm]

Eh see, I don't even know how to do the math on this stuff.

[solid quartz]

Doesn't matter. If you had $8000 to throw around you'd not be bothering with making indie games - you'd be running a whole studio.

[versed charm]

We can ourselves sure, but we're still gated by the Core platform. To get to my game you're going to be assaulted by NFT stuff and that creates a feedback loop that the players that come are going to be expecting NFT games. I think Manticore could have made and still might be able to make a world for NFT enthusiests and one that is devoid of them. They could at least do better, or make good on their rhetoric that they were going to be open and welcoming on how to seperate the NFT business from their prior business, which I feel they have not done. If anything this thread has shown that most people, including myself, believe that they've done the opposite, it feels like 'go ahead and make your non NFT game but you won't be supported in the future like those who do.'

[solid quartz]

What we've got here is the digital equivalent of most of the community living in the blue collar housing that's a cross the road from the posh neighbourhood where the folks have so much cash they replace their clothes when they get dirty rather than washing them 🙂

It's gonna cause problems both here and on Core. There's always an elitist element that comes along with an influx of wealthy groups.

[tame blade]

I don’t see how it’s different from p2w in that sense

[versed charm]

Oh now come on Kryyss if I had 8k to burn I wouldn't be that smart, it'd go for drugs, alcohol and a veriety of useless stuff I bought whilst drunk and regretted the next day. Not ironically, whatever useless stuff I would buy while under the influence would NOT be NFT. Even in my drunken stupers I'm not THAT reckless.

[tame blade]

It’s like that iPhone app that displayed a jewel and costs $1000 when the App Store started

[versed charm]

or.... Diablo Immortal!

[solid quartz]

If we keep seeing Collab after Collab with very little done on NFT intergration than I'd say it's less about wanting NFT projects and more about landing whales. Time will tell.

[tame blade]

The good thing about f2p is that there is still some gameplay to be had

[versed charm]

You're more positive than I am, I think there is enough momentum with NFT that time has already given us a pretty clear message. Changing course at this juncture is going to take a lot of work and a ton of pain and no one is really registering that pain to act upon it yet. Other than this thread, which I am very appreciative that Manticore has let go on as I think it is important.

[solemn ivy]

for real!

[modern egret]

This post surpassed 1000 messages today, great stuff we are talking about here, thanks for making it noticed and talked about! :) Goal was to get Manticore's attention here, which has been achieved, so thanks! Keep posting ideas/opinions here but keep it friendly! ❤️

If this post/thread turns into pure negativity I will close it, so just please keep it friendly. ❤️

[solid quartz]

I'm just weighing the pros and cons here. From the start I've said I didn't like the risk Manticore is taking and I've yet to see anything which says this is a safe bet or even a reasonable one. Their transparency on this has also been horrendous given that they've been very up-front about why they've prioritized certain platform features over others, where they want to be on something but now its all smoke and mirrors. They've got a community of creatives here and you'd expect them to understand that we appreciate how expensive and time consuming development is but theres far too much concern now about "investors" who have universally preferred to keep anything that resembles bad news from getting into the public domain.

So rather than being frank about why they've shifted focus they've instead left people like Kalvothe and the mods playing Mr and Mrs Public Relations Officer in an attempt to maintain share values which is far beyond their original job description/

[round beacon]

I think the whole purpose of Core was to create a platform for metaverse environments. Look at their first trailer, the entire message is metaverse. NFT integration is the logical step to digital environments, being verifiable ownership of purely digital assets. Manticore is playing the omega long game here, I'm sure NFT integration was discussed since the very beginning

[solid quartz]

Ownership of the things you create was part of the original concept, that at the very least has been stated by staff I've spoken to. Web3 may have been on the table since day one but somehow I feel it's a recent addition that fits into the original concept.

I've spoken about the inevitability of Web3 to metagaming at length so I won't go repeating myself. But this is an undeveloped and very experimental field of technology and business where it's not possible to know what is best practice or what complications further down the road need to be planned for. So like others have said this all came too Core far too soon.

Thankfully it's not too late to back out as other studios and publishers did express an interest in pursuing Web3 technology but then revised that course as a result of the controversy and uncertainties surrounding the technology.

[chrome sundial]

They weren’t making enough from your guys perks which is why it had to switch up.

New innovation is always in your face. That’s how new things feel

Is that because your game is always featured in one of the core world portals being most engaging and most popular?

[tame blade]

Again for those reasons I mentioned in the other thread

[tame blade]

Still remains unanswered.

[chrome sundial]

I think it’s obvious though isn’t it?

[tame blade]

I would prefer they go all in on NFT functionality and provide write access and enable play to earn natively. It’s not about backing out and more about giving the non NFT holders good reasons to stay. Think of any successful f2p game where the game is made to be so good and addictive that players can’t help but throw money at it.

[versed charm]

It's all the f2p games that aren't made good that I'm more worried about, times that concern by one-hundred when you add NFTs into the mix.

[solid quartz]

The issue there is the legal, future or present, implications of being read-only access to the blockchain or actively handling cryptofinances. In the EU at least, legislative measures coming into play will mean cryptofinance companies in Europe will be required to meet industry safeguards and regulations. That may be something Manticore want to avoid due to the overheads and complications it introduces.

[tame blade]

Can’t they just partner up with tipalti can get them to handle that bit?

In any case the goal is to make a play-to-earn game easy to create on core

That includes easy on-boarding into the crypto finance space where web 3 newbs can explore without having to wrangle with such pains of safeguard / regulation as the platform should theoretically handle all of that on behalf of them

[solid quartz]

It's possible but the issue is wha financial groups are offering to take responsibility for third party cryptofinance transactions? Currently if you want to buy through Core then PayPal, visa or MasterCard take responsibility - they won't do that for crypto.

[tame blade]

Tipalti was supposed to be issuing DAI payments to winners of loot mmo

[solid quartz]

We all know that crypto is already a hot bed for money laundering simply because it's unregulated. That'll change once companies have to answer to the various oversight organisations.

[solid quartz]

That may be the solution then. Hard to tell if that's possible via an automated system.

[tame blade]

That’s a good thing for the average consumer. Web 3 money is big and if they are really angling to be prominent within the space, they should be able to afford the compliance people.

Again if core does start rolling in the web3 dough and there’s signs of sustainability through increased engagement and staffing, I’d say it’s a thorough success and good for all creators on core.

[vernal sedge]

So, if we use Mekaverse as a somewhat successful NFT project, the project had a floor price of 6.4 ether before the artwork reveal at the height of crypto mania back in 2021.
As discussed throughout the thread, NFT gaming really favors the developers who make the most outrageous claims and generate the most hype.
I guess we may not like it, but it is the future of gaming.
It feels like we are beating a dead horse here.

For those of the people still on the fence, I say just go for the bag.
There are no victims when the pump and dump crashes.
All the players and investors buying in are doing so to potentially make money by selling later.
People make their own decisions.

Go for the outrageous claims and make that money, but just don't do anything illegal.

[vernal sedge]

It's like with how the industry just completely accepted loot boxes and micro-transactions.
People will point to a few game of out of however hundred / thousands that don't use these are are successful, but it is just so much easier and more reliable to monetize using loot boxes and micro-transactions. In some cases it may be the only viable option.

[drifting belfry]

Ugh lootboxes

I have nothing about microtransactions

Since it's just people buying the stuff they want

But lootbox gambling? Making people gamble to get the things they want? That's just pure evil if you ask me

I hope they get banned in more countries

[vernal sedge]

I have found that most of the gaming community don't have backbone to stick to their principles.
There is a lot of criticism about preordering before seeing what the game is like, and loot boxes.
But then people still preorder, get burned by it, rage about it, and preorder again.
For loot boxes, when Blizzard removed it from Overwatch 2 but with more expensive cosmetics, suddenly no one cared about the people addicted to gambling and the community want the lootboxes back because it's more convenient for them.

I don't judge developers on how they make money. Gamers are fickle.

[drifting belfry]

I only get lootboxes when I can get them without spending real money.

In GW2 you can exchange game money for "store" money

[round beacon]

maybe now, at the "bottom" of the market, is the best time for Core to onboard these projects, giving their users exclusive information about what projects are getting partnerships. That means we have insider information about what projects could possibly see a pump after joining Core... Opportunities abound for those who understand this

[drifting belfry]

And then you can ultimately get lootboxes for ingame gold

That much is okay to me at least

[vernal sedge]

I think ultimately, if the game is good, even if it is really predatory, people will still play it.
A game that's gamer friendly is not necessarily good.

Not as much of an issue with cosmetics, but pay to speed up can make the experience worse for everyone since it is designed around and encourages the player to spend some money.
Not every game can grow to the size of League of Legends or Dota to be sustainable.
I guess even with League, you still have to grind out / buy every champion, and they did add in a lot more RNG with the lootbox systems.

With inflation and huge cost of game development, I guess it is just not viable for the previous business model of 50/60/70 dollar games to work.

[drifting belfry]

two very different things. but do we realy only care about making the most money no matter ethics?

[round beacon]

some care about money more unfortunately.

[drifting belfry]

without a doubt, but i think we can choose how WE want to do things

[vernal sedge]

people will always be able to make hobby games / small indie games.
But what if someone wants to make a bigger game that will take a team a lot of time and resources to make?
Maybe not even completely unethical, but should they dip a bit more into the morally gray area to fund the game?
Maybe say not with traditional loot boxes, but with NFTs.
Should they overexaggerate to get more people interested in the game in the hopes that they can expand the team later?

[round beacon]

once you start hiring employees, making money matters a lot more. Having people rely on you to put food on their table is a big motivator

[solid quartz]

Toy companies have been doing that to children for decades. How do you think Trading Cards got started? Buy a box of cigerattes, get a random advertising card. When this was found to boost sales it became used in bubble gum, then sticker books like Panini, then Kinder eggs, then CCGs and now lootboxes.

[vernal sedge]

I am personally only a hobby dev, and what I bring up are just hypotheticals.
Don't worry, I... probably won't be going around scamming people with NFT projects.

But I would like to explore the topic to the edge of what is legal.

[round beacon]

the biggest looming catalyst for web3 right now is that its unregulated. When gov. start to label NFTs as securities and not commodities, there will be a big splash, and many projects will be pushed out due to fees associated with registering as a security, but the ones that are able to afford registration will probably skyrocket, due to investor confidence

[vernal sedge]

As much hate EA gets... they pay their employees fairly well.
Mean while companies like CD Project Red really, really abuse their employees yet is loved by the community until Cyber Punk... but only because the game was buggy

[vernal sedge]

Yeah. Kind of funny that Beanie Babies exploded and then crashed just like Tulips.
The same age old story of speculative markets on things with almost no intrinsic value.

I would say that TCGs are a bit different in that there are economic reasons for keeping value of the cards around the price paid for them.
Games like MTG used to have a symbiotic relationship with local game stores where there would be space for the players to play in, but in exchange the game had a healthy secondary market for players to buy and trade with the store.
That is like completely destroyed now...

[solid quartz]

Well, the 2077 debacle was due to mismanagement at the highest level due to the ones in authority having no experience in how to run a game studio because their own background was in analytical marketting, advertising principles and the like.

These kind of clueless COOs, Product Directors and CEOs ignore the developers actually making the product and buy into their own hyperbolic rhetoric. Leaving behind a record of one failed business after another as they jump ship for others to clean up the dumpster fire their ego and inadequacies created.

[vernal sedge]

Actually it is kind of remarkable that TCG pack prices have remained around 4 dollars for so many years.

[round beacon]

Magic the Gathering just recently released a $1000 booster pack

https://spikeybits.com/2022/10/stores-magic-collectors-concerned-over-new-1000-packs.html

Hasbro was trying to be a moonboi and stated they would increase profits by 50% during bear market

this was their strategy

[vernal sedge]

It is an universally hated product for proxy cards not legal for tournament play.
Magic has been squeezed hard for the 2-3 years where they are trying to double the profit.
Classic example of short term quarterly profit over long term health

It is even getting noticed by other companies, with Bank of America downgrading Hasbro's stock.

[round beacon]

i love MTG im sad to see it being hosed like this

someone will buy the IP im sure

[solid quartz]

But 2077 and No Man's Sky both prove that once those people are removed the equasion, when both creative and logistical control is given back to people who have development experience rather than being master blagger's who spent their miserable careers reguritating the latest buzz words and third party ideas, things can get back on track.

[solid quartz]

Actually a bunch of ex-Bioware staff were hired by WotC to create a new IP so the business may realise that MOG is losing its appeal.

[vernal sedge]

I think the point was more how badly they treated the developers.
Now that the game is better and the anime for CyberPunk was good, I think people will continue to buy and support them.
It's like no one cares about the game devs.

Or people get outraged online and then still buy the games

[round beacon]

the hype and memes for CP2077 were far better than the game itself.

[solid quartz]

80s and 90s pop culture has captured the attention of Gen-Z and cyberpunk anything is very, very 80s. So the hype was both engineered and naturally occuring.

[round beacon]

we are in a new arena in terms of how products are marketed. hype and anticipation will bring more attention than even the most stunning trailers

[solid quartz]

Hands up everyone here who is now officially "vintage" 🙂

[round beacon]

old-school and new-school should not be in conflict, but combined to form the center which is where all good things happen

[solid quartz]

That's not new. Movies and games have frequently spent as much budget on marketting as they do on production. Sometimes more. It's been proven that people can be convinced that a mediocre product is actually better than it really is.

[drifting belfry]

at 41 ive been for a while already lol

[solid quartz]

I only got vintagised recently too 🙂

[round beacon]

im converting to vintage. 35 here

[solid quartz]

Still makes me laugh to think that bands like the Sex Pistols, Alice Cooper and Nirvana are considered vintage musical groups. That word just sounds so cultured lol

[tame blade]

It’s the vintage crowd that nfts are trying to appeal to, as envisioned in Ready Player One with all your 80s references of digital goods

[solid quartz]

They need to push harder on that nostalgia. I'm not seeing any NFT collections go true 80s.

See, all you need to 80s style is lots of pink, purple, a grid pattern and fake chrome text. Done!

[round beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/horusultra-vaporwave-city-roving-gif-12116841

[tame blade]

It’s probably lots of trademark infringements like having your own set of 8888 deloreans

[solid quartz]

Needs more pink. MORE PINK!

Anime as also very 80s. So i guess anime collections get an automatic pass. Kinda.

[tame blade]

Can’t go wrong with AESTHETIC

Mechas are also very anime I guess

[solid quartz]

Now if only Manticore added a cel-shading post-process....

[drifting belfry]

Yesss pleaseee lol

[tame blade]

https://beincrypto.com/do-web3-gaming-have-a-user-experience-problem/

Great analysis and basically echoing my thoughts on this space

Now if core can read this 3x

[solid quartz]

Depends if the focus here is Web3 VIP social spaces, Web3 gaming or just Web3 utility for metagaming. We honestly can't tell what their end game is here because they keep saying stuff like "Web3 Experiences" and "Metaverse platform" as if those phrases explain anything.

[tame blade]

The end game is to basically claim the pie for the future of gaming

This is the time for the pioneers to build, test, and figure out how to engage communities, provide new types of entertainment, and decentralize control over gameplay design to its users – as Roblox has done.

Nice Roblox reference

[solid quartz]

The situation there will be NFTs made no different to bonds. They won't be associated with images, 3D assets, audio or anything. They'll just be what they are - a legally binding certificate

[round beacon]

imagine in-game items being inspected by the SEC.

lmao

i think they could still carry attributes and traits to be used in-game tho

its late i should not be talking legalities in finance haha

[solid quartz]

The thing with lootboxes is they can be set up as gambling or lucky dip.

With a lucky dip you always get something. Now what you get may not be worth the money you paid but that isn't any different to buying any product but finding it wasn't as good as something else. That's just the nature of commerce.

But a lucky dip takes that to an extreme at times with the product you purchase possibly being of great value or nearly worthless. Schools and village fairs are allowed to do lucky dips specifically because it's not gambling, likewise the Claw Machines seen in arcades and fairgrounds can result in a loss of money but are considered entertainment because there's a skill based activity involved.

So in reality, the only ethical concerns are (a) having measures to prevent children spending stupid amounts of money and (b) not having an all-or-nothing mechanic which is actual gambling and not simply a poor use of money.

[round beacon]

while not a great example, Diablo Immortal solved the lootbox problem by turning their dungeons into "skill-based" loot boxes, could be emulated in a more ethical manner

[solid quartz]

Pioneers in business are no different to pioneering explorers. What they did was done at great initial expense, frequently required pressing forward through one costly mistake after another and in the case of "pioneering firsts" like betamax tapes, the Fujitsu home gaming console and Friendster there's no innate advantage to being a pioneer.

[round beacon]

I for one am glad that Core has the courage (or desperation?) to move forward. Personal opinion tho

[vernal sedge]

Maybe claw machines are not the best example since they are rigged.
The claws don't have enough strength to grab a toy until after a certain amount of money has been deposited.

[solid quartz]

yeah that was my conclusion about how to get around the ethical issue while still having the "surprise mechanics" as EA would call it. While poorly chosen words for how they did things theres no denying that there is a measure of excitement about getting an unexpected prize. As Blizzard have clearly found, all you need to do is have the reward earned in some way - even if the skill requirement is minimal.

[solid quartz]

is there a difference? If a fool rushes in and succeeds we call it courage, but failure is met with ridicule. Perhaps all courage is foolishness tempered only by the rose-tinted veil of retrospect.

[tame blade]

the good thing is that there is already a demonstrable success in the case of reddit. the quicker core learns and drops the whole NFT in your face deal, the better.

[versed charm]

"I have found that most of the gaming community don't have backbone to stick to their principles."

Diablo Immortal!

Sorry I want to be the dude that swings in and screams DIABLO IMMORTAL when bad practice in gaming is mentioned.

[tame blade]

well diablo immoral isn't bad, but it is definitely f2p refined to an art form

[solid quartz]

Unfortunately that learning process will have to wait, they opened an job vacancy for Principal Product Manager about two weeks ago and thats one of the key people who need to do the "learning"

[versed charm]

There isn't one successful dev company or company in general that isn't in bad practice, close to it, or has a future in it. I try and make a habit of thinking there is no 'good' company, just 'good' phases. Almost all of them promote bad culture and predatory behaviors and if they don't you or I won't be any of the wiser as the only window we have into it is via media and the rhetoric that is used on Media to promote things. A.k.a. I take everything with a grain of salt when I hear about a halo company that has 'a good culture' - they might have a good culture but a lot of places once attaining that culture can go very south on one project and suddenly the poor sops working there have to fight the good press that had been laid down for years. CD Project Red, EA, etc. etc. I have a few friends that were in Blizzard, one high up and one not so high up, and this sort of 'good company and how they present themselves' isn't inherently bad but can quickly morph into a hell masquerading as a good environment.

MTG, or Wizards of the Coast, they've been known for some really predatory practices, don't know about their own employees, but they can be a scourge on just about any other TCG (much more so than CCGs) - they have one of the largest legal teams in the world and it isn't used to give out cuddles and hugs, it's used to squash anything else in the realm. Pokemon, Go, etc. have all had to go through the Wizards of the Coast legal battles - they're a pretty horrid company in that regard.

[versed charm]

Yeah I think Diablo Immortal is a horrible, terrible, deceitful money gambling machine that masquerades around with very good gameplay. It reigns supreme on blatant predatory practices and obfuscation on what you are getting and should have been banned globally rather than the few countries that had the forethought to do so. For those that haven't followed it, do some research on it and it's... well it's bad. The rhetoric from Blizzard to soften that hit, to make it sound like it's a game and not a gambling machine is especially pathetic. The biggest issue I have with it isn't the game itself, but how it is normalizing the practice from the top down. While it's a horrid game, it takes a juggernaught like Blizzard to make a ponzi scheme like Diablo Immortal and to push it through so it's legal in most areas. While I don't disagree that such practice may be inevitable, we don't need the push from the biggest bully in the room, and we're getting to that bad practice a hundred times quicker given their legal and promo work on that game. The war was lost in this area long ago, but the substantial win in that war that will bring victory to fruition will be at the feet of that stupid game and I hate the culture at Blizzard that produced it.

[versed charm]

Also, regarding MTG they literally wrote the book on analyzing and to a degree exploiting player types. Don't get me wrong, it produced some of the best gaming design practices we've ever seen (see the MTG GDC keynote, it's essential viewing for any dev IMO), but it was borne out of a massive think tank of salespeople and psychologists that categorized a whole design space specifically on how players spent monies and played games. I'm kind of presenting this in a negatory light, and it did bring a ton of bad mojo to the space, but this sort of analyzation also had a lot of gain in the play area; a.k.a. their work there paid off in producing engaging card sets that no other TCG has gotten close to past or present. Look up 'Johny, Timmy, Spike' - terms still very much relied on today for TCGs and realize that those simple looking classifications of players is pretty much the foundation that MTG card sets are based upon. It was, at the time, a revolution and absolutely has been a very large part of how we game today. At the core of that research wing, the core of that analytics though, is an exploitive and predatory practice - not enough to boycott or damn the game by any means (I'm an avid fan of it), but something to be aware of and contemplate IMO.

[versed charm]

Great article / thank you. It nails my relationship with Web3; it's not that I'm against it, I just want no part of it and the inclusion of it is confusing and wants me to get into areas that absolutely do not intersect with gaming for me in any way. That article makes it sounds like I'm not the exception with that reaction, that it's very common amongst players.

[versed charm]

Also from that article is the word 'ponzinomics'. I have fallen into a deep and immediate love of that word and will start using it.

[round beacon]

unfortunately, with jobs being soaked up by robots and automation, ponzis are going to be rampant. At the very best, "soft" ponzis are going to be one of the few remaining ways of making money for the "majority" of people

[versed charm]

The article has a really good definition of the word I think we all should take into account, regardless of where we stand with web3: "It is widely accepted that a move away from ponzinomics — in which early adopters profit from investments of new participants — is needed for the space to grow. Ponzinomics is fundamentally an unsustainable model that requires uninterrupted growth to work. No game can realistically aspire to it."\

The article also states that Web3 is inevitable and I think it's reasoning is sound, so don't think it's anti-web3

[round beacon]

i totally agree, but i think there is an area of reasonable sustainability with softer schemes that are less capitalistic

as long as all participants are aware of the rules

[versed charm]

Also, 'no game can realistically aspire to it'. The point of the article, and a concern that runs through this thread, is that Manticore is aspiring to that and promoting people to aspire to it. I think that approach is in part of what has caused so much backlash - it's an understandable move but I'm surprised they made it without any sort of moderation or apparent thought.

[versed charm]

Completely agree

...and yeah, I think Web3 will become the norm at some point. I'm fine with that, but I'm fine with it as I'm confident it will be a very different looking beast that is being promoted at the moment.

[round beacon]

i patiently await the day that web3 features are invisible.

or, less prominent i suppose

the tech will just be assumed

[versed charm]

Yeah, Reddit seems to be the trailblazer here: they seemed to have already pulled it off. I've got zero issues with Reddit dealing in NFTs as even if I'm a part of it, it isn't requiring me to be involved in it / I didn't know it existed until I read an article on it.

[round beacon]

this is the way

[chrome sundial]

All I know is so many of you in this thread are going to owe these core employees apologies when the time is right. That mobile announcement is going to drop and make people feel silly lol

[umbral belfry]

ponzinomics is scam, let's name it. Doesn't mean that a Scam cannot become a serious business without scamming people but built on reliable spectrum of functionalities.

Hypothetically. Theoretically. Optionally. I mean we got a place to make this a thing, but it requires ... EFFORT and WORK 🤮 And Ponzinomicons do ponzinomics because they hate work and effort and look for an easy scheme to cashgrab. I tell you, gimme some K's and I make you a Metaverse in Core 😄 But I guess I can tell that about hella many of us. We just need some Ponzinomicons to put the switch and realise they need to start to deliver value, instead of another empty hype about nothing.

[versed charm]

I agree with this take, I think the article does a good job making that case as well.

[versed charm]

Wait... what is the Ponzinomicon word you speak of? This is another word which I have fallen for! I love it!

[umbral belfry]

I invented it, it is based on ponzinomics

[versed charm]

You are the greatest mind ever. Thank you for this word.

[umbral belfry]

As I do understand Ponzinomics is the Noun for the Scheme Type, so a Ponzinomicon is a person participating in Ponzinomics.

https://tenor.com/view/jeremy-clarkson-sometimes-my-genius-almost-frightening-driving-car-ride-gif-16463163

😄

[versed charm]

When the day comes that I get another pet (which I dread as it means one of the existing ones will have passed), I am thinking of naming it 'Ponzi'. If so, in my head it will always be 'Ponzi from Ponzinomicon' from this point forward.

[versed charm]

Can I make the assumption that Ponzinomicon can also be used as like a grimoire of petty deceit? Like the stupid b$!%d child of the Necronomicon let's say. I am equally warm to that definition as I am of it labeling ponzi practitioners.

[round beacon]

The Ponzinomicon: Abridged Version:

1. Charles Ponzi – $15 million
2. Lou Pearlman – $300 million
3. Gerald Payne and Greater Ministries International – $448 million
4. Reed Slatkin – $593 million
5. Scott Rothstein – $1.2 billion
6. Tom Petters – $3.7 billion
7. R. Allen Stanford – $7 billion
8. Bernie Madoff – $20 billion

[versed charm]

Where be our man Samson fried?

[round beacon]

||*redacted by CIA^||

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

[umbral belfry]

You can but watch your language 👀

[solid quartz]

I don't think any industry studio has "good culture" because if they ask someone to work a 50 hr week during crunch time and the answer was "No" they'd end up first on the chopping block when money was tight.

[umbral belfry]

That's how it goes but that's why we have it pretty good here 🤷 everyone does whatever they want. I mean we do not rely on Game's Successes here, mostly.

[solid quartz]

Don't get me wrong, the games industry is hardly unique in having unreasonable expectations for their staff. Many industries have positions where the s are expected to sacrifice their wellbeing and personal life to the business and think a fat pay cheque is adequate compensation.

[drifting belfry]

is that the only way going forward?

i hope not

[solid quartz]

It's more than that, these kinds of schemes become most effective during times of economic difficulty when people become desperate and are prepared to take risks. People promised not simply wealth for the sake of greed but money for the sake of necessity. The Ponzi scenario itself took off during the Great Depression.

That means the con artists did something worse than steal money - they offered false hope and then crushed it too.

The danger NFTs offer now is the same since the world is facing a serious economic crisis which is already breaking records. People will turn to risky investments out of desperation.

[versed charm]

I think it is inherent in any work environment. Some people find their balance by being passionate and they put 80 hours in a week even if you beg them not to; that puts pressure on others and expectations as a whole. Sometime it's just a phase, other times it's just how they operate. Especially when it comes to the arts, people can throw their all into it and it becomes hard to balance everyone who isn't having work rule their life. I think the most common mistake is that companies who want their workers to be balanced don't take into account the inherent unbalance that comes with people, so they go 'that's just Joe, he works that way' without really fully appreciating that Joe is making some sort of impact with those extra hours. I've seen a lot things like Joe leaves and there are no mechanisms at the '40 hour a week only' work place that really takes that loss into account so the department still has to maintain that level of output... over years it can become a really big problem and you're left with an administration that advocates 'we have a 40 hour a week environment' without realizing they very much do not, that if that were to happen their numbers would be a lot lower and you're asking certain people, generally leads, to basically dull their performance if they really want to keep 40 - a very tall order indeed for people in those positions.

Personally I've been there multiple times, sitting in front of the CEO who waxes philosophic on why I'm [or the team] putting in 80 hours a week not understanding if I put in less than that, everything can fall apart. So even if you're headstrong on avoiding crunch you need to be aware that it'll eventually work its way in in some form - good companies prepare for that and act accordingly. Any company that says they avoid crunch you can generally put a timer on before you hear news that they started crunching again and crunched harder than those who don't tout that they have oppressive hours.

Eh, sorry, that's off topic.

[solid quartz]

Yeah, remind me not to mention work things when I know you're around lol

[round beacon]

Just as a thought experiment, What are some ways to implement Play to Earn without requiring infinite growth? If a developer is aiming to provide a monetary return for players, how could they fund those earnings without creating a ponzi?
Let's first assume that the developer will NOT be putting money into the system to pay players. This would inevitably lead to failure for obvious reasons.
Also important to steer away from using new player on-boarding costs to pay existing players.
Keep in mind P2E will most likely be very slim margins on developer profit due to needing to pay your players.
Now, since earners are not technically producing anything to sell to consumers, you need some consistent, reliable income from players to keep funds flowing and to support the P2E model.

1. Recurring subscriptions, either for access to the game itself (NOT Free2Play, highly sustainable) or to various locations in the game (less sustainable).
2. Player Market transaction fees. Can be Free2Play if player chooses not to utilize markets, restrictive, potentially unsustainable if markets are not used.
3. Stamina systems (ie you can perform 5 actions, pay $ to restore action points) Can be Free2Play if player does not restore stamina. Less restrictive. Potentially unsustainable.
4. Sale of Items/Perks that provide utility to owners. F2P restrictive. Only sustainable if the Items are consistently purchased
5. Ads - F2P non-restrictive, but potentially annoying. Sustainable only if advertisers are interested and even then clickthru must be enough to keep your advertisers happy. Only possible if your game has a decent existing playerbase

Earning:
Crafting method: Players spend money to upgrade something with various attributes to make it more valuable, which they can sell
Proof of Work method: Players perform an action in-game to collect resources that can be sold on markets.
Staking Method: Players can lock money into the game to earn rewards over time. (Must keep rewards realistic)

[round beacon]

Likely a combination of 3 or more of the above methods would be ideal

[tame blade]

adjustable P2E might make more sense, not sure how axie does it now, but I would think its a matter of allocating budget and development costs to players. at the end of the day, f2p is about whales subsidizing free players, so P2E will be an evolution of that where bigger whales subsidize these play 2 earners

still I don't like the idea of P2E, its just, not good as a game mechanic. I rather something novel, like create 2 earn.

that ends up being somewhat similar to the loot mmo jam

players contributing actual value rather than fake ingame value

or maybe even dumb stuff, like clicking on capchas to help train machine learning models, or contribute their pc processing power to such ML models, but at least its some "proof of work"

[round beacon]

its hard to gauge because in the real world, you create value by assembling something new from purchased (or harvested) resources and sell that to consumers, or by providing a specialized service that requires training, experience or hardware

[round beacon]

Ultimately, i think Core will need a fully integrated chain upon which it can perform read and write transactions safely (owner confirmed writes to prevent theft by malicious devs.) in order to facilitate a true web3 platform.

However this is really going All-in on web3 and will probably cause more division

[solid quartz]

Simple. Advertising.
Core would need the same system as mobile apps where you watch a video for things but rather than the creator taking 100% of the revenue they have something like a leaderboard and pay out some of the ad revenue to top players.

It wouldn't be much unless the game was super popular but P2E doesn't need to be promising Megabucks.

To be honest, if it was possible to cash out Core credits without being in the perk program then allowing users to transfer Core credits to each other via the API then you'd have a non-Web3 means of P2E with Manticore actually profiting from the process as it's all done using their in-game currency.

I could drop down £50 to buy Core credits, run a competition, make the scripts pay out as needed and winners could do that across enough games to eventually cash out.

[round beacon]

Here is another big problem with Play2Earn:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/the-reason-bots-dominate-crypto-gaming-cash-grubbing-developers-incentivize-them

[solid quartz]

The issue here is a lack of education about finances. Gamers are typically in the 10-25 age range and, depending upon your country, the amount of schooling that focusses on being smart with money and aware of the realities of finance varies from minimal to non-existant

[round beacon]

i think this is intentional as the ruling class does not benefit from financially educated serfs

[solid quartz]

I've never been an advocate for the state being responsible for the upbringing of kids as that is 100% the responsibility of parents to teach values and so on, but finances is complex enough to be something many adults would struggle to teach or explain.

[solid quartz]

Yeah let's not get into sociopolitical stuff here or we're going to be waxing Marxism and Communism Vs Capitalism else lol

My point is that the target audience for Web3 gaming is incredibly vulnerable and ill equipped to understand why P2E isn't what it promises.

In reality, it needs to be brought under the same kind of scrutiny as gambling due to the financial risks involved.

[round beacon]

yes. when there is a winner, there is always a loser, esp. in financial terms

[solid quartz]

That isn't nessersarally a bad thing. The issue arrises from how much varience exists between the winners and losers.

"Every man deserves to see good for their hard work". If the winners did very little and the losers worked harder then the system is inherently corrupt and unethical.

But yeah, if Manticore does want to pursue better monotisation then stick with less experimental options. Ad revenue is a proven system and while it isn't the "get rich quick " flamboyance of Web3 it is sustainable, well documented and successful.

Get ad intergration into the API.

[round beacon]

I like this idea a lot actually. Core could manage the advertisers, creators can choose when and how often to display the ads, and earn a bit just from players viewing the ad!

[solid quartz]

And stop locking creators out of the perks program. Getting 50 DAU on one game is no different to getting 1DAU across 50.

If anything Manticore would find the sales for credits would go up and bidding for ad space would increase if more creators could monotise their projects.

[solid quartz]

And all they need to do is pay creators using ads in core credits with similar, but lower, thresholds for when they can cash out.

Odds are a good chunk would use the credits for cosmetics anyway so the ad revenue stays with the studio

[round beacon]

the DAU limitation is self-defeating imo. I have to create a game to attract DAU, but it cant have perks until I get DAU? With perks, you have a better chance of getting returning players.... Why the lock-out?

[solid quartz]

And yes I'm aware the per view ad revenue can be less than 0.5p or smaller. I'm not saying it's a Silver Bullet to all their financial concerns.

[solid quartz]

I think Manticore doesn't have a great administrative infrastructure so they can't operate a large numbe of monotised accounts.

That's the only reason I can think for such a deliberate access limitation.

[tame blade]

It’s also to discourage low effort perks monetisation and prevent a deluge of games that do not responsibly implement perks that follows t&cs

[tame blade]

Ads only work if there’s substantial players, but yes it goes well with mobile

[drifting belfry]

when do you think it's soon enough to have some idea on how NFTs have affected core?

[umbral belfry]

Well, I am not allowed to spoiler and Leak but Manticore HAS an idea which might have quite an impact. But it needs hella lot of patience as it is another big thing, like the NFT Integration and the new Character Cosmetics Building Systems. IN these times it is not easy to build on trust, but that's all you need to have (for I guess several more months) meanwhile all a Creator can do is work on a decent project to stand out of the crowd.

Also please try not to go toooo much offtopic. This Board has enough content to fill several Boards/Threads already.

[umbral belfry]

Well, it takes time. For once we need to wait for the next update on MekaVerse, which is insane! (for NFT Holders) The web3 / NFT (I don't like to put both in the same basket as web3 is bigger than just NFT's ... ) world has not seen this kind of integration and value enhancement in what an NFT serves as. Turst me bro 😄 But for real, there is something coming up to enhance Core's Visibility to many potential Wales. Everyone else, not MekaVerse NFT holders, will not have any functional changes but many new Players and potential Wales, if they have a decent Game online.

So the Value for non-NFT-Creators lays in the exposure to a new market with potential new players. We have seen a short rush in visits with the Citadel and MekaVerse garage. Which is nice. We (the Creators) just have to deliver some games besides the MekaVerse to grab one or another new player.

It is okay to be critical about this Blockhain NFT Hype we're driving, but if you are not actively interested, then you are not negatively affected but get the option to get a few new people to your games. If they stay and spend some, that's on you how you make the game. I know some might say it is in responsibility of manticore, but I come from the GameDev world outside of UGC/Core and there the responsibility lays in GameDev techniques to keep a player interested, playing and possibly paying. (Player Retention, Onboarding etc)

[tame blade]

sounds interesting, but again, when ios and all the other good stuff for non-NFT-creators

so an update for mekaverse means the mekaverse will still be core world? or moving to its standalone experience soon and having some gameplay for non-nft holders?

[versed charm]

Agreed that building trust is not easy, but that is fully under control and responsibility of Manticore, especially to their creators. It's great to hear they have things in the pipeline but the sudden and unannounced shift to Web3 has sowed a lot of confusion. The withdraw from Manticore on these things has been very concerning, in part because it is not clear to the player or dev base where this platform is headed. Since this is a platform, we are bound to that train much more so than any other type of game development, so the lack of communication or transparency in these areas directly relates to the ability of the creators to finish or adjust their projects.

I would encourage people to realize that in this regard Manticore is very different from other game development companies - the creators on this system are not fanbois itching to know the next feature of your game and waxing philosophic on why there isn't a legendary weapon that spits unicorns out. Each feature of Core directly relates to the work we are doing. Sometimes it completely changes what we are working on mid-stream - each feature and potential that they are considering in going has concrete and major changes on this creator base. Which is why holding things like Web3 until day of the announcement is quite concerning for creation types as there was zero room for adjustment for such a substantial change on the platform and no direction given on the way forward. For some of us, that has eroded some of the trust with Manticore.

Not saying that finding that balance of disclosure with the creator base is easy, sure it's one of the most difficult things to do, but it hasn't been handled well as of late. I hope Manticore is adjusting with lessons learned and trying to figure out a better way to keep their creators in the know with the future of the platform, especially during these lean times.

[chrome sundial]

Months, or not 1 year plus

Would only be fair to compare 1 year of NFTs to 1 year of traditional.

[umbral belfry]

Can't go too indepth, but there might be some more, while mostly for NFT Holders of the MekaVerse, not related to casual audience, except with the afterthought of more players.

[solid quartz]

I was thinking about it from Manticore's angle. Yes for users who have a low DAU they'd not really see much revenue but the business would collectively have tons of creators pushing ads for them.

[solid quartz]

The trouble here is that you're literally telling creators to get excited and show patience with the promise of landing a whale if they monotise their game.

Why is that a problem? Because it means you're asking creators to build games where the focus is predatory gameplay designed to encourage spending.

Beyond that, you've stated it's further Web3 intergration meaning it's going to require creators to be engaging with cryptofinances thereby excluding younger creators who need parental assistance to access those sevices and for creators who are old enough we're left catering to a very select player base of crypto enthusiasts and subject to the instabilities and uncertainties of how governments will handle cryptocurrency.

In short, you're saying the only exciting thing happening for Core is that it's going to be possible to profit from the More-money-than-sense brigade.

That's quite sad to be honest.

[solid quartz]

Also, it shows that everything said in topic has fallen on deaf ears. Why even bother to keep this thread open?

[tame blade]

Yes it hasn’t been handled well. I’m unhappy that I signed an NDA but am not getting enough of said insider interesting spicy stuff that Kons was alluding to, instead getting a total silence as if that NDA was totally useless and asymmetrical and not useful for me to sign at all

Guess next time I know better than to trust empty words

[solid quartz]

It's probably a Team META thing. If the citadel is any indication it's that META is possibly part of the outsourcing work for these commissioned projects for NFT groups so I'd imagine they're privy to more in-house information as a result of them needing to know.

Did I spell that right? Prethee?

[tame blade]

you mean privy?

[solid quartz]

Nope prithee

Maybe privy?

As in "to be aware of"

Now, I was wrong you were right. Privy.

[versed charm]

Isn't that an outhouse or something?

[solid quartz]

Bet prithee is the arcaic root word

[solid quartz]

Yup. Slang for toilet but I think that's Privey

Not that I'm saying META get to use the in-house toilets... Maybe they do too? Or not...?

[versed charm]

My English degree at work: I think my question had proper grammar there. Gives self a hug.

[solid quartz]

... https://media.tenor.com/xPmEbr40xoIAAAAC/get-me-coat.gif

[tame blade]

sounds cool that team META is up to more stuff for the mekaverse, so its likely going to be high quality.

[solid quartz]

No argument from me there.

[umbral belfry]

We could go through my comments and analyse what I was saying but it is literally not what you state here. We can do this via DM's.

As for I meant my statement as said, I can repeat in other words: I was/am asking for patience with Core as we do have (not stated what kind of) some neat relevant updates coming (No releasedate known) which can come with some positive effects even for non-NFT-users, without, and foremost without this being essential, any connection to "involving engagement into cryptofinances" or "landing a whale". Mostly and literally I was stating: Making use of the integration of NFT's is optional and even if you do not, Manticore is attracting new possible Players with this promotion of the Software being capable of integrating NFT's.

If you are not aiming towards using the web3 possibilities, then move on and leave it to those who want to or aim towards a positive change rather than spicing up conversations.

None is obligated to engage with any web3 content on Core. Also please stop doing this kind of "putting words together out of context and adding drama to where is none". I am keeping this Thread alive so everyone can vent and get rid of their thoughts, even if they are not positive towards web3 integration, if it wouldn't be me, this Thread would've been closed a few days ago. Mostly for this kind of toxic assigning of blame for anything that is not your personal opinion by a few Users. Enjoy your free speech and keep the conversation going if you have something that is not said yet or might contribute to a positive development, just as everyone else in here.

At one thing you're right though. META did an amazing job on the MekaVerse integration and building their Metaverse but I think everyone has the capability to do so. The tough part here is actually doing. Speaking from experience. I could've done an NFT integrated game already and be less naggy as I might already profit from this - but I didn't.

Anyway, slowly but steadily also my Patience is hitting limits of "This is still a constructive conversation". Feel free to stay ontopic and discuss NFT/Crypto/web3 ideas - Manticore IS reading. Your concerns are heard. Some pretty loud and clear.

[pallid raft]

I agree on the fact that these kind of serious discussions should remain the most positive as possible.

Because players or new people might be reading as well

[umbral belfry]

But on the other hand there are many valid concerns 🤷 gotta keep the balance.

Anyway, keep it going Comm. It is healthy to be capable of stating concerns and sharing ideas. I will continue my Game anyway, so far without NFT integration, just the same way I did it before. It is for me, literally, an option and while not planning on using the Option for NFT's/Cryptos I do not see any negative Change for myself as a Dev.

[drifting belfry]

It does gets harder to ignore when it gets more and more in your face though. All loading screens, many (if not most) of the new tutorials are also aimed for that and now we get an event that literally puts them as soon as you log in and you have to go through it to get to the regular core world.

It's not correct to say it doesn't affect us at all. Would you say that going through 20 pages of ads doesn't affect you if you're not interested in buying the stuff they're selling?

I understand the event is temporary of course, but it's all of it together

[solid quartz]

If you are not aiming towards using the web3 possibilities, then move on and leave it to those who want to or aim towards a positive change rather than spicing up conversations.

So are you telling people who don't want to use Web3 to move on from Core to other platforms because by not using it they're failing to contribute to the positive change that Web3 will bring or are you telling people in this Discord who don't want to use Web3 to move on to other topics because they're not contributing towards a positive change with their opinions? Or maybe both?

I don't want to be misunderstanding you here as you're claiming I'm putting words into your mouth.

[raven stone]

That's not what Konz said or implied at all. We're definitely saying stop summarising or exaggerating what people are saying

[solid quartz]

I haven't done anything but ask what he meant so we can avoid his comments causing drama by being misunderstood. It would be better if you didn't jump to conclusions yourself as theres no way for you to know what his intent was by that statement.

Like everyone else here he's entitled to his opinion after all.

[raven stone]

You've pulled part of what he said out, just read what he said kept this thread to the discussion

[chrome sundial]

you guys have all been doing this through this whole thread. Again this all does prove the point that web3 is good because even in this controversy, it has been the most engaging core thread EVER. By miles and miles and miles. It's clearly here to stay. The exaggerating and false narratives are going to be met head on by people in the space for sure.

[versed charm]

"If you are not aiming towards using the web3 possibilities, then move on and leave it to those who want to or aim towards a positive change rather than spicing up conversations."

That's a very odd and weighty thing to say as a mod in a thread discussing concern about web3 possibilities. We're here to voice concern, ask questions and debate about Web3 on Core; if that isn't encouraged, shut the thread down. Statements like this stifles the conversation this thread was designed for, if we want web3 discussions sans any questioning, there is a place for that, #988498371968905296

[chrome sundial]

No I think that was the perfect thing for a mod to say in this thread....

You guys have voiced the "I don't like it" part, and now you're just here complaining, being rude, taking things out of context, pushing lies and false narratives, and frankly embarrassing some of us creators that are in the space.

A decision has clearly been made. Your feedback was received, but then this turned into something else entirely.

It's time for you guys to move on, but also understand if you keep sat it, it's going to be met with responses too!

[raven stone]

The issue was the sentence before completely clarifies it, but this was taken out of context, this is a warning now, please keep the thread on topic

*a warning for everyone that wasn't to be directed at you Bubblewrap

[umbral belfry]

That is not odd but totally what I was saying: Move on with doing something else but using the NFT functionalities (which this whole thread is solely about): Create a game! Share some creations in #✨showcase-share , help someone in #💻coding-help, make yourself a hot tea, meditate or literally anything else productive but using the NFT Integration, as this seems to concern you. If you feel like this was stated as to leave the Core platform, than this is a priority of yours to understand it like this. If you need a closer personal discussion about what I mean and what you understand, we can go through this in DM's.

---

Thank you for participating in this discussion to everyone! Especially to the valid and productive concerns and criticism. Every voice got heard here, unrelated to the content they stated, every. Even though some prefer to stay in a discussion about the behaviour of mods (or mine) and pulling apart every word to an as negative as possible version by any means if there is a slightest option to assume and interpret that moved this temporarily into a negative environment to be at. Let this be an example.

I foremost value your anger, your concerns, your fears, your wishes, your hopes and ideas and I am with you, as so do I feel about this topic sometimes; there are questions we do not know answers to yet. We are moving in a topic that is pioneers work and new to everyone, so let this be filled with a positive attitude. Please know this is not an easy situation as we stand between individual concerns and opinions and a stated and fulfilled corporate decision that already delivered positive results.

I hope keeping a Thread like this open helped you guys with voicing what's on your mind.

[pallid raft]

pioneers of one of the few environments out there that makes the integration/use of web3 possible and easy.

Web3 is by itself a whole different topic.

NFTs is what we have (read access) only and a lot of awesome stuff can be done on our end using this new tech.

See it as... 1 additional asset in the Core library.

On the current state that is what it is... unless Manticore focuses exclusively on NFT collabs and leave behinds their solo devs 😦 But my guess is that... is not going to happen 🙂

[solid quartz]

Thanks for clarifying what the intent was, at least we now know what the general sentiment is among the mods, Manticore and Team META regarding any negative feedback about Web3 intergration.