⭐ Disciplines and Classes

[abstract pewter]

but yeah i would take a look at how ff14 does things with classes, as they are all quite balanced (wow usually has balance problems in that regard)

there is like 5% of damage diference between dps classes

[stone knoll]

hmmmm

i guess that last druid buff on naruns might be a bit strong

i think it used to be 75% wis scaling now it's 82?

[abstract pewter]

compared to this, which armor and lv where you using? @stone knoll

[stone knoll]

lvl 30 with just well fed buff

training grounds

[abstract pewter]

the dps there were lv 40 cobalt tower dummy with dlp weapon and gear

[stone knoll]

i can show my lvl 38 enchanted gear in a sec

[potent jackal]

Before I forget entirely; the point I was going to make earlier is that getting the 'in group content' vs 'solo levelling' balance for healers seems nearly impossible with the current design implementation.

So don't balance it. Insert some kind of a disclaimer as brought up above, that shows when you would pick or purchase the class. Even just some kind of tag system that previews and highlights every class's strengths. Key one being "Beat with friends" and "Self sufficient" if you want to make them sound nice. Druid could get "Durable" and "AoE healing", etc;

Just focus on the one you are anyway. Group content. Healing classes are dedicated healers. Their performance alone will be lackluster in comparison. If new players know that up front, friction is reduced, and you have an easy win.

It's easier to get and swap to a different class than it is to swap specs on the same class on a game like Classic WoW. Maybe that needs some more streamlined communication, too. How easy, and how to.

[stone knoll]

true, you can lean more into the Discipline being a way to combat the plays lvling woes. What ever class you start with your other disciplines relics are cheaper

[abstract pewter]

i personally find it strange that the relics are considered an item as said above being its one systme might be better for clarity, in there you could sort them properly by discipline and such

they feel a bit disconnected the way they are presented

when you buy them even i needed to double check several times i was buying the correct one

[potent jackal]

Just more guidance. I wasn't even trying to say make them.cheaper or anything like that. I also don't think the healers need any major fundamental changes.

Just clearer communication and more handheld guidance on how class balance works in THIS game, how class swapping works in THIS game, how you unlock your other classes...in THIS game. Reducing friction and increasing new player retention is the goal.

If the stance was firmed up that healers should be played with friends, and that is communicated up front, the question is no longer "Is X Healer Class fun?"

It becomes instead: "Is X Healer Class fun to heal with?"

[abstract pewter]

also having an explanation of the classes in here, to know the different disciplines they are divided in, and which relic you need to unlock them

ff14 does it like this

that is an old version, let me see if i cna get an pic how they have it now

but it is the same basically

[coral marsh]

Skills already has this, just need to add tooltips to it. You just don't see all the disciplines that are offered on this screen till you start to level it (unless thats changed since I got them all). Having them all start at 1 and be present on character creation with a tooltip would be good

[abstract pewter]

yeah but those are your skills, not the classes of the game

nor the disciplines they fall under

[coral marsh]

right, and if you read my entire message you would have seen I mentioned adding a tooltip for them.

[abstract pewter]

nor which role do they play in the game

and as i asked before, it could also house the relics directly

[coral marsh]

Having a better in game directive of what things do is great. They already started this with the guide tab and will have more UI expansion later.

Personally, I strongly dislike the idea of the class swaps being a toggled thing. It removes the weight of the switch and just makes the game that much closer to a Menu's simulator

[abstract pewter]

we could still requires to carry the equipment if you are strong on that front

but having the relics as items, again, to me, feels quite disconnected of what a class is

in ff14 you have two different bags
but i will not die on that hill

[coral marsh]

Idk, GW2 has a similar bag system to this game, though you can get more bag slots, its the same premise. Iirc, WoW also has a super similar system to this game. OSRS and RS3 you have a limited 28 slots use for everything.

Imo this game doesn't need it as weight and space should be impactful as you explore the world. There are banks everywhere and you choosing to carry multiple classes at a time is your choice to clog up the bag.

[abstract pewter]

relics would only be ocupiing 3-4 slots if you carry that many

and would imo be more conected to the character rather than be a in item as now

the same could be said about mounts but i recall being a technical issue rather than a choice?

[stone knoll]

same test in an dummy aoe environment hitting 4 targets done at The Guilded Wall.

but funny enough all of these tests are missing a lot of druids power and dmg. Iron bark does so much much for you.

having mobs hit you accounts for so much of your dmg especially early on.

[old marlin]

Is this for real? How would you expand? add more abilities Or through augments?

Ive always seen the Ethyrial's discipline system being the wow equivalent of a class. And ethyrials relics being analogous to WoW class specs. Ive suggested this a long time ago and the consensus seemed to be balance would be too difficult, but instead of having to develop new abilities and augments you could allow people to mix and match skills of classes from the same discipline. Maybe not wholesale, and obviously you could limit it by weapon type requirements, although admittedly this would be an ambitious balancing undertaking.

[pseudo tapir]

I think we have the same view - what i meant was just adding more relics so each discipline has equal class counts
augments can be in addition to this but yes it's a big balance undertaking

ideally we get the foundation in place, combat/animations feeling great, world polished -> shift time to content/balance vs building core systems

[potent jackal]

Relics are fine as they are. Them being an item and a part of your equipment load out is a cool and unique part of this game's class design.

[potent jackal]

And the inventory system is also fine. What you're asking for with all this extra free storage for relics and equipment feels antithetical to the game's intended design and balance.

Inventory management is by design. A lot of things feed back into it/use it as a balance factor. It's good how it is.

[silver goblet]

this is similar to how everquest 2 originally dealt with the issue. they had healer dmg abilities scale with different stats than the healing abilities, so you needed seperate gear for dmging and healing, as well as having a branching talent system essentially turning healers into t2.5 dps when not primarily healing.

i dont think any class should be classified as not solo viable in solo content.

t2 dps were the dps classes that either buffed or debuffed which also meant thier dps wasnt quite on paar with primary dmg dealers

[halcyon yarrow]

i did it a while back now m

now mabye its a bit harder

DLP weapon is already obselete boc armor too

cant even imagine going for a legendary heal weapon

[stone knoll]

with who in your grp because there is no way you did at at lvl with a lvl 35 healer

[halcyon yarrow]

lbl 35 healer gear

[stone knoll]

why is is BoC armor obeolete? and why is it so hard to get legendary healing item? because that's my #1 goal

[halcyon yarrow]

its not hard

there is no point

if you get 38 healing gear

and a lifeblood reaper you are set

dont need anything else

[stone knoll]

ohh i get it youyr saying it's like a soft cap because the you can complete all the content without?

[halcyon yarrow]

Yeah

There is no reason to get it

[stone knoll]

there is also no reason to be a billionare be we got em

[pseudo tapir]

with that doomer logic why do u get a legendary in GW2? 🤔

[halcyon yarrow]

Because its stat selectable

[pseudo tapir]

but u could get every stat with substantially less time investment than a legendary and swap the items

[halcyon yarrow]

There is no difference in stats from ascendended to legendary

[halcyon yarrow]

I guess so, but they pay off pretty fast if you have a ton of builds

[pseudo tapir]

the QoL is super nice for sure + the drip

but doomer logic never works bc it comes down to "why play video games at all?"

u can do nearly all of the content in OSRS with mid tier items

[halcyon yarrow]

The issue is pretty simple i can easily heal all content in the game whit 38 gear there is no feeling of increase in strength from 38-40 heal gear

While for dps classes its very big and noticeable increase

[pseudo tapir]

part of it is defense is inversely correlated to healing, so when tanks get tankier healers get less powerful

it's basically just a balance thing where bosses need to hit appropriately hard so healers stay engaged

[halcyon yarrow]

Yes

Thats kinda where i was going

Or

You nerf heal modifiers

I dont think legendaries should be necessary

But 40 armor and DLP weapons should for end game content

[stone knoll]

hmm druid clear time on dlp low key isn't bad, but holy is it boring and i have now discovered the real druid gameplay.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vohd5s-DzDk

i can't lie the Naruns buff was very nice, but now my best dmg in all cases is spam naruns unless i'm in a grp of 4 or more. i'd rather see some powert put into Ensaring spore instead.

Ensnaring spore seems like it would poison/dot. especaially since it's lvl 20 spiritualism it's by far out worst anility. 18 seconds cd

it has some decent scaling but it's cast time and cd make it so ineffective the only time it's worth casting is if there IS EVEN a spell to silence(most cases the spell doesn't matter or it can't even be stopped). The root basically useless because your either losing out on dmg by not having mobs hit you Or the are unaffected by it/ and ranged and just hit you anyway.

[halcyon yarrow]

Its private

[stone knoll]

should be good to go

[potent jackal]

I was actually debating making a Wisdom staff for my first leggy, for Warden. Since I don't have a scythe or hammer option yet. Hoping that will happen eventually and Ryan will be nice and trade with me if I still want to.

That being said, I feel like the net benefit here is the raw stat increase. That's a lot more raw wisdom than a Lifeblood my man. It is a net upgrade, period. Also, healers like Priest/Cultist at minimum already bring a respectable amount of damage as part of their rotation. And the leggy proc will be a big increase to it, I'm sure. Assuming it's the same AfterimageDPS proc the other weapons have.

More damage for group for free is just a win

Edit: "free" lol. Cinders are free right?

Plus, even though I don't like the weapon type, the leggy healer stick will surely be BiS for Warden DPS so...

[stone knoll]

for reference for Hunter DLP clear time, same lvl gear except lvl 35 weapon vs lvl 38 weapon on druid

[frigid jetty]

It is a sliding scale. A good group that is balanced and knows mechanics can get by with a low powered healer np. However, a powerful healer can make up for a poor group to some extent, although you may not want to cause then you are prolonging a painful experience lol. The real value in healer BIS gear is solo play. You can kill bigger stuff when you can heal yourself faster, and of course you will be doing more dps with more wis.

[potent jackal]

Can we increase the range on Dragoncleave on Crusader? Happens so often where I am sitting in melee range, bonking away, and Dragoncleave will just fail outright on the mob right in front of me on level ground. Even though other melee range abilities are hitting. Feel like if it had a range of 3, or 4 if I were being greedy, that would help a lot.

Usually misses when a mob does the silly thing where they stand on top of me, but actually behind me. So I backup to make sure it doesn't miss from the mob counting as behind me. Now it's slightly out of range.

[livid mica]

taunts still arent 3 seconds and all tanks are trash.

[silver goblet]

im sitting here thinking drk overtuned and you like nah bruh trash xD

[old marlin]

I know its been discussed in the past about rewarding people who progress a specific discipline further than just 25 for the abilities. Thought it would be cool to have a specific trinket that you could purchase/unlock that would be considered useful across all the classes in that discipline maybe unlockable at discipline lvl 40 or whatever.

[stiff haven]

This is one reason I have trouble sticking to the game. Ive always been a druid main on any game with a druid. And druid on EoY is... like... barely a druid. Which is why I havent played druid since initial launch. Lol

[livid mica]

bump

[modern kestrel]

Coming from guild wars 2 it was jarring to see a lot of classes had no self heal, and a lot of classes had maybe 1 damaging spell

I know potions exist for healing, as well as our of combat rest, but i feel like in GW2 even the healiest healer can do enough damage to solo open world content, and even the tankiest tank or most DPS glass cannon has some form of sustain that isn't tied to items

That might not be what you are going for here, but it would feel like a large QoL improvement (at least to me) to improve some self sustain for classes and to provide some more flexible DPS options other than spamming bolt of natron or priest damage spell

And that might be just mirroring what people said above where the classes don't feel finished, like they are one spec in an incomplete whole

[pseudo tapir]

gw2 was originally designed to eliminate the holy trinity - but this game respects the holy trinity with some extra utility for most classes

or utility via itemization i.e. BT

[frigid jetty]

Demonknight's taunt should be aoe

[silver goblet]

cough dragonknight too cough

[stiff haven]

I mean... every tank should have an aoe taunt.

[livid mica]

bump bump

[frigid jetty]

Demonknight is a bit more AOE than the others so maybe it makes more sense for them, but I am happy for any and all to have it.

[stiff haven]

Same for EG. Only single target spells it has is its basic attack and taunt. Everything is aoe.

Actually, been a while. Even their basic attack isnt single target.

[frigid jetty]

waiting on the EG revamp 🙏

[coral marsh]

Disagree, I think most of the tanks are actually in a really good spot. I've been playing a good bit of DmK recently, as well and DrK and a lot of Guardian.

Though I agree that they should all have AoE taunts

[livid mica]

taunt does nothing but pull 3s taunt could be nice

rather than sitting there waiting for 2 abilities to come off roto

i can just push taunt again

[coral marsh]

was mostly disagreeing with the "all tanks are trash" part, not the taunt, sorry haha

[livid mica]

oh no tanks are great

thats just shit post

XD

the other half is legit tho about the 3s taunt

<.<

could use an aoe tbh for group pulls

gives more clearance and less cheeck clenching if someone body pulls

and the tanks knee deep

dmk nice guardian gucci tho

haavent played drk since it fell off like half a year ago

heard it was aight now tho

[coral marsh]

Yeah, its pretty solid even for overworld clearing too. Feels on par with DmK

[pseudo tapir]

[coral marsh]

Guardian is a great group tank, bad for overworld farming. Its my preferred tank for BoC

[pseudo tapir]

[coral marsh]

have yet to play EG, heard mixed things though. I can do some testing with it if you'd like.

[livid mica]

<.< mmmhmmm

very bad

[livid mica]

yoooooooo

i forgot e.g was a thing

[pseudo tapir]

im just trolling

but EG is p good

def test it

[coral marsh]

Pirate soon?

[pseudo tapir]

[livid mica]

yooo

pepe pixel rpg when ryan?

XD

[stiff haven]

I enjoyed EG but I never did group content with it so no clue how it does in that aspect.

[potent jackal]

I'm gonna throw a boulder in the puddle. I think Warden having a taunt would be a lot of fun. Here's the thing, I'd want to give up literally nothing for it, but I feel like half the people playing the class want it to tank. Can we have an AoE taunt for free for fun to test?

[abstract pewter]

🙃

https://tenor.com/view/funny-gif-1037406600576421063

@potent jackal asking for more things for the warden

https://tenor.com/view/iriis-iriis-silly-chatroom-gif-11543923551961747387

Me asking for more things for the spellblade

[stiff haven]

Could have sworn youre one of the people that told me wardens cant ever be a tank. Lol

[potent jackal]

I definitely told you it can't tank without a taunt 😃 because it can't.

[abstract pewter]

Ask for spirit strike to also get into account the second weapon if you are DW

[potent jackal]

I was 90% shitposting because I got a cool Wisdom shield in a map last night; 10% wanted to see what @pseudo tapir would say to cooking up a Rotisserie Chicken Tester that is just current Warden with a taunt, strictly for shiggles and testing purposes >.>

Real talk though, iirc, they have a different idea for a wisdom tank? That or I bought the meme and am still remembering bad info.

[abstract pewter]

Also, weekly reminder for Str claws and that claws be usable for Demon Knights

[livid mica]

2h shield wis tank. iirc.

XD

<.<

[potent jackal]

Let me shield charge and do a double shield ground pound for an AoE taunt that also does some damage, and I'm in

[silver goblet]

no warden taunt before real tanks get aoe taunt

[potent jackal]

Tank Warden is an Augment conversation anyway lol

[stiff haven]

Warden can be a real tank if you try hard enough and give it a taunt.

[patent walrus]

Any tools a hammer if you try hard enough

[potent jackal]

I think Druid is 100% more of a real tank without a taunt than Warden is tbh

[sly night]

They should give Spellblade a taunt

[livid mica]

spell blade with taunt would go hard

iykyk

[abstract pewter]

spellblade does not need taunt XDDDDDD

spellblade generates so much aggro that a demon knight could not keep up even when i was 10 levels below

[sly night]

Don't be silly. Taunt and remove all AOE capabilities and the class will be perfect.

And yes, I did type that specifically to make you twitch in rage, Sharei.

[abstract pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/ragebait-rage-bait-ineffective-jjba-gif-1520600062858722531

https://tenor.com/view/-gif-3784246

but in reality

[silver goblet]

what little aoe capabilites spellbade had was gutted last pass over ;P

they got a single 3m aoe cone left xD

[abstract pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/yungviral-gif-3932570280331285572

yes and i want them back still

supernova and surge having 3 range might be enough to calm me

[livid mica]

sounds like you cant demon knight, if SB is out aggroing you.

<.<

[abstract pewter]

i was the one outaggroing, specifically one of the dragons

[twin dawn]

Could we kindly ask that Ember be a Fire Damage over Time effect, and that Enflamed is simply a stronger DoT?

[frigid jetty]

Triggering enflamed is the highest dps thing elementalists do, is it not?