28+ Mob Balance

[tropic geyser]

Thread to continue convo

[lone parrot]

Thx 🙏

I feel if mobs died a little faster but did more damage in return would make combat feel more fast paced while keeping the mobs hard

[tropic geyser]

That won’t solve the problem

Then assassin becomes bis and kills everything in 4 seconds

I think we just need to balance from the class side maybe

Need to think and discuss with Ryan

[summer hornet]

It might be useful to define the problem, something like: Players are not managing to balance their class and combat level with their armour and weapon levels. How can we provide engaging gameplay so that players can self-manage all their levels while minimising server/world changes and retaining the current perceived progression

We also do not know the dev considerations, so a lot of what we suggest may not be viable or useful. Is it possible to provide some high level bullet points that the dev team has for this issue? eg. Server impact // Player progression // Mob balance // Armour vs Weapon levels // End game content // Horizontal progression post L40

[ancient parcel]

Balance Template

Desired Top DPS TTK: 12s
Desired Average TTK: 16s
Desired Heal/Tank TTK: 28s

Mob Level: 38
Mob HP: 17100

Top Case: Assassin
Target DPS: 17100 / 12 = 1,425

Low Case: Earthguard
Target DPS: 17100 / 28 = 610

Gear: at level
Elixirs: Yes
Food: Yes
Enchants: Yes
Vamp: Yes

Questions:

• Assume all pots, elixirs, vamp, food, etc is used?
• Are these TTKs in-line with player expectations?

[tropic geyser]

Expectations are also subjective

It’s a huge delta from before

But it’s basically in line with WoW ttk

[summer hornet]

Nice nice. Should assume T7 pots (stat, mana and HP), vamp/bloodthirst, T7+ food, T7+ armour and weapons (but not BIS), I don't usually think TTK, but will keep it in mind. I think "I need to kill as many as I need to get where I need to" - @sharp nest and @lone parrot are more TTK peeps who have stop watches and spreadsheets at the ready XD

My considerations as a solo tank are: How many can I round up and kill without dying horribly, time isn't really a factor for me... unless I fall asleep because it takes waaaaay toooooo loooong. Also assuming this is open world mobs and not dungeon/instance/elites

[tropic geyser]

The idea is that tanks would tank longer, but be able to do that

[ancient parcel]

So you're thinking dial back the consumes used for balance?

T8 -> T7

[tropic geyser]

Also tanks have overall less downtime because they take less damage

[summer hornet]

T7 is 30? So if this is for mobs 28+ then T7 is a better starting point

If you look at mobs 35+, then T8 pots and items are a better starting point

[ancient parcel]

kk for sure just wanted to clarify what u were thinking

[summer hornet]

just some thoughts, still buzzing DmKing has ascended with the CD change, feels soooo good now 👑

[summer hornet]

Brawler still top DPS, Assassin is top tier though XD

PS - we only use T9 pots on special occasions... like Christmas and New Years, otherwise we sup on T8s

[ancient parcel]

for testing we need a simple rotation for benchmark

[tropic geyser]

we can do more complex rotations, it's just that balancing on one class where classes themselves are not balanced yet isn't helping

I made it so that the mobs died pretty consistently to assassin, which means the ttk for all other classes will be consistent as well

in my opinion, we need to close the gap

[summer hornet]

Ya, good luck with that. Spellblade would be easier than sin for rotations. No idea about magic users. Tanks should be fine with whatever, healers... pray to RNGeebus

[tropic geyser]

assassin is very easy

spellblade you need to time stacks

[summer hornet]

knife throw and poison bomb manually targetted or auto?

I always thought sin had 2 manuals... been a while >.>

(I usually fight with keyboard, mouse manual targetting is like a nightmare for me... same with the lantern in Deadlands >_<)

[tropic geyser]

knife throw is not manual

you just lead the rotation with poison bomb

then roll your keyboard

[summer hornet]

Ah, noxious bomb and poison vial are the manuals

[summer hornet]

All goods, sounds like you got this

The world boss hydras can be killed now, so no protests from me 😆

[tropic geyser]

long story short, gonna be a long WIP lol

[brisk estuary]

I was trying various monsters with assassin using not bugged vamp and nah dude I either use a health potion after every single monster or rest after every single monster, I also need to have all my cooldowns to win and also I just cannot kill the rat brutes

[tropic geyser]

If you kill a mob at level, you will be fine

you will always need to rest if you're killing mobs 2-3 levels higher

[brisk estuary]

I literaly cannot kill 2 cats if they attack me together or the primordial cat never can kill it even with pots

those are lower level than me

[tropic geyser]

i didnt test multiple mobs. I tested assassin on at level, +1, and +2 levels with 28, 33, 35, 38, and 40 gear

idk what to tell you. I spent > 20 hrs testing over the past 4 days

i know for a fact it works

[summer hornet]

Cats still resist nature? Asking for a friend >.>

[tropic geyser]

yeah if they are nature resist sure

piercing/nature resist do not count in my tests in order to account for a larger common denominator.

I also did not test on primordials. Primordials are designed to require high end gear to kill

[brisk estuary]

I don't see nature resist for cats but will check again

[tropic geyser]

i can check.

[tropic geyser]

nah lunarions do not have nature resist

leshi do

[summer hornet]

They been changed to divine now? O_o

[tropic geyser]

Also, using pots is fine. Pots are part of the gameplay loop

[summer hornet]

Resists: Lightning / Arcane / Crushing, interesting

[brisk estuary]

i understand using pots for oh shit situations but you want players to use a potion after every single mob encounter?

[tropic geyser]

for harder encounters, sure

i expect that

could mean adjusting availability of resources for it

[brisk estuary]

but then can you guys make it so that I am not asked to go and kill a monster way out of my current league?

because you may say oh just don't do MH until you can kill that mob but by the time I will be able to kill that mob now I will be sent to kill something even stronger

[tropic geyser]

yeah I understand that

MH is the tricky part

[crystal hamlet]

i feel like auto attacks should be important for berserkers, but 2handed autos are so lackluster that its prob better to use dual weapons. idk why but berserker just doesnt feel berserkery to me

[sharp nest]

Finally a outline i can work with

[summer hornet]

If you get higher than 12s, you're demoted to second best

[sharp nest]

fr will get higher than 12s 😂

sin's getting 1.4k dps? kinda wild

wonder if thats a test with a single monster or chain killing mobs

[summer hornet]

Go brawler and punch em in the face

[sharp nest]

Cant test mobs till my commisions are over 😂

[lone parrot]

This might be the biggest issue then I guess if you tested it whit the gear I saw then illusionist just does less damage it seems

https://youtu.be/Dc1l9qBWvtU?si=7ROLnNSHUpaeYRiq

Old Naga vid

I understand they where too easy before but now?

[lone parrot]

Because that would mean that before assassin's could kill in about half my time as well

[lone parrot]

They hate me

[stable garden]

Is it possible to adjust the level range? As a lv 32 I have no problem killing 33/34 monsters, but I struggle on 35 and mh send me to kill lots of 35 monsters using t7 items, i can manage on DmK, even more than one, but zerker just gets clapped on every single monster

[lone parrot]

Yeah level range needs adjusting for sure

[stable garden]

Also, you need to consider mob balancing for ppl without top tier items, am I wrong or on your test you had nearly the best items? There are some unlucky ppl out there

Even more with level impairing

[lone parrot]

when i saw him test he had pretty shit items

just average crafted stuff for the lvl

[stable garden]

Oh, that's ok then

[lone parrot]

just normal stat rings

no loe or dolenear stuff

[stable garden]

Maybe I'm overreacting because zerker sucks now and there's nothing that can change my mind about it. I cant play it outside dungeons, and my items aren't bad at all, probably just playing it wrong maybe

[lone parrot]

yeah zerk was always harder

[stable garden]

Also, superior lightning elemental feels... weird

[lone parrot]

but that more a class balance issue

[stable garden]

Maybe I'm crazy but it feels weak?

[ancient parcel]

These are just example numbers - a template basically

Updated the title

[lone parrot]

https://youtu.be/3xhGfb4OPAQ

here same naga

same items

but now i am lvl 39

instead of 36

[tropic geyser]

It think berserker needs adjustments. When I tested it also felt weird to play

A lot of the abilities have long cds which puts berserker at good front end dps but then falls off

I think someone mentioned it. Classes with long cds are weaker in this setup

[stable garden]

Yes, the execution isnt as good anymore after doubling monsters hp and he takes extra dmg so, the class is weird

[tropic geyser]

Execution I think got a lower cd though?

I could be wrong

But even so

[stable garden]

Yes, but still, the dmg seems weird for an execution

[tropic geyser]

I don’t think execution is the primary problem actually

[stable garden]

Oh no, the execution is one of the many problems

As you said, longer cd's got weaker in this patch, just happens berserker takes it worse

What I say about execution is that before you could execute a monster at ~30% hp, now fhe execution is at ~15, that's a big hit on the class, but if the execution deals a little bit more dmg and the other spells have lower cd, I think it will be ok for the class

But this is about monster balance, sup lightning elemental feels weak to me both as mage and tank dmg wise, the same for dawnhounds

Duskhounds feel way stronger than dawnhounds

[tropic geyser]

Maybe phy resists? I know dawnhounds and duskhounds are different in that respect

[tropic geyser]

What lvl Lightning eles?

[stable garden]

35

[tropic geyser]

Kk

[stable garden]

Idk, they just feel different whichever class I use so idk

Dawn aways feel much weaker

[tropic geyser]

Try switching weapons

Maybe dusk is slashing resist

Not at computer rn

[lone parrot]

you saw the naga vid?

[tropic geyser]

Ya, same items but higher level?

Seems weird

[lone parrot]

yeah taking almsot double the time

[tropic geyser]

Double the time versus what

36 is double the time?

Or just in general

[stable garden]

Im also not at computer haha but from what i remember it took less dmg with an axe and more with hammer.
From what I can see, i take longer to kill and they hit harder, maybe im just crazy

[tropic geyser]

Yeah this would make sense ^

[lone parrot]

when i was lvl 36 before the change to double hp i killed nagas in 12 seconds now 22

[tropic geyser]

Gotta switch weapons on mobs due to their phys resist

[stable garden]

Unless dawnhounds take extra demonic and nature dmg

[tropic geyser]

Oh. Yes this makes sense and is intended

Now we need to think about itemization and class balance

[lone parrot]

it is inteded to be twice the ttk as before?

[stable garden]

I know, what I'm saying is that duskhounds always feel stronger than dawnhounds, using axe or hammer or spear, nature dmg, shadow dmg, demonic dmg haha

It is also the best mh possible, because I can kill 4 each time, 5 if I want to use potions 🤣

[ancient parcel]

They definitely might - is it visible on the tooltip for you yet?

Also quick question:

pre patch if you had to estimate the TTK of mobs, what would you say was the average?

[stable garden]

Pre patch? As a tank? 12-16, as a berserker? 6-10. As a shadowmancer? 8-12 seconds

[tropic geyser]

Yes

To account for same skill xp and combat xp due to formula

[stable garden]

When I turn in the computer i'll take a look, it makes sense the demonic dmg tho, but if i'm not wrong one is weak to crush and another to slash, maybe what I remember are other mobs haha

[tropic geyser]

You could be double dipping in damage dealt if demon knight

[stable garden]

Edit, tank 12-20, depending on the mob

All I know is that dawnhounds is heaven for demon knights 🤣 10k heavy exp per lure and I take a minute to kill all

And I have to sit every 2 fights because of respawn

[lone parrot]

i thought we where told before the change that it was intended to keep the ttk as before?

rn it would have been easier just to half combat xp gained would have had the same eefect

[tropic geyser]

We thought of that as a solution

[ancient parcel]

nerf would have been poorly received, while a buff to hp would have had no effect

TTK being longer than before is the issue, if it were the same, there would be +skillXP and no other negative effect

[ancient parcel]

based on this comment:

#1355342140443726036 message

this would have to be adjusted down by about 2 seconds for top dps bench

[tropic geyser]

I think this just shows class imbalance late game, and we need to adjust that. Dps should fall in a certain dps range, tanks fall in theirs, etc

[stable garden]

My messages got deleted wtf haha

Did not send, then i restarted the app and they were gone

[ancient parcel]

i hate when that happens

[stable garden]

5, i dont even remember what it was

Haha

[lone parrot]

for sure as well my illusionist should be bursting stuff down but it doesnt feel like it tbh

[stable garden]

But here it goes

[lone parrot]

feels everyhting is a dungeon enemy

[stable garden]

Before:
1 monster = 500 exp, 10 s ttk
Now:
2 monsters = 1k exp, 20 seconds ttk

The same, right? No, because some classes got weaker.

[tropic geyser]

Yeah it’s not that simple due to cdr on abilities

There are more factors

So yes, this is not over yet

What’s going to happen is class adjustments are going to happen and I’m gonna have to balance 1-28 then lol

[stable garden]

But @ancient parcel and @tropic geyser what about aiming for a 1.5x ttk instead of double? While keeping the same exp as now?
It will partially solve for some of the burst classes and at least to me, seems reasonable

[tropic geyser]

This will mismatch skill exp and health xp

That’s our main problem

We would have to nerf combat xp

[stable garden]

But can't you change the hp:skill exp proportion?

[ancient parcel]

no bc early game would get far too much skill XP

[stable garden]

Ohhhh, that's true

Is there no way for a new exp formula after 28? Or maybe readjust skill exp on early levels?

[ancient parcel]

We will keep working it, next restart let us know how it feels

[ancient parcel]

this isn't really necessary bc if TTK were the exact same as before, everything would be balanced

TTK is a just higher as a fact right now, need to keep dialing it in

[brisk estuary]

please for the love of god just do this and keep everything as it was

I would rater just continue killing the monsters as they were before than deal with the bs that all monsters are right now

[ancient parcel]

nerfign combat xp would impact your comment a week ago about "never catching up to scabby" for example

that would carry a hard negative

[sharp nest]

Ain’t no one catching scabby 😂

[ancient parcel]

buffing HP was the least impactful method to achieve the goal of increased Skill XP

[brisk estuary]

I really don't care about that shit anymore if my total experience with everything else is garbage

[ancient parcel]

i know you're saying that so u don't have eyes on you zooming up in levels

[ancient parcel]

imagine if your TTK was halved right now

how would that feel?

[brisk estuary]

the thing is that I never understood why are we buffing hp when what was needed was to buff the % of experience you get for melee and armor from monsters I just cannot find a real answer for that question unless the answer is that the code is garbo

[ancient parcel]

that was not a solution because early levels would then far outlevel with skills

[brisk estuary]

so the code is garbo and you cannot apply it to only lvl 28+?

[stable garden]

But if it is possible for 2 different formulas, you kind of "solve" the problem partially for the high levels and do not touch on early levels

[brisk estuary]

I really don't care about TTK anymore just leave things as they were and just cut xp in half is the same thing as it currently is right now since now it takes me double the time to kill, just pleaseeeee

[ancient parcel]

It's really not as simple as "just add another element to the formula for 28+"

everything uses the same XP formula

[ancient parcel]

what you just said is:

• i dont care about TTK
• halve my TTK and I'll be happy

[brisk estuary]

how are you going to halve my ttk?

[ancient parcel]

The monsters were just rebalanced with this:

#1355342140443726036 message

[brisk estuary]

just leave hp as it was, and cut xp to half so that it matches the skill xp now I would just use mh books for xp if I need to

pleaseeeeeeee!!!!!!

https://tenor.com/view/peepo-peepo-riot-riot-protest-peepo-angry-gif-21768097

[sharp nest]

Not everyone lvls with MH

Like I said it’s a noob trap. IMO should’ve been a skill that unlocked at lvl 30-35

[brisk estuary]

I don't care it is already taking me double the time to lvl up right now so what are they even improving?

[ancient parcel]

We'll keep working the values until it feels good

[brisk estuary]

if it is going to be double the time anyways just leave it as it was

[stable garden]

Yeah, I figured it out so, what about separating exp needed for 27- and 28+? Increase exp needed to level up on early levels and when you hit 28, the counting goes back to 0 with the current requirement. You can keep early levels the same while fixing our problem. Idk. Atm I'm just typing whatever comes to my head haha

[brisk estuary]

@stable garden also you are right berserker is just hot garbo and trash that class is not even fun to play and makes no sense, should be a great dps but is outdps by pretty much everything

[stable garden]

The ttk on berserker is wild. It's not the time I take to kill a monster, but the time the monster takes to kill me haha

[ancient parcel]

We'll just push some stuff live and u guys can keep testing the feel

[brisk estuary]

this is the mos accurate description of berserker

[stable garden]

Thx for your effort, I know we are always complaining. But just trying to help figure things out haha

[lone parrot]

I think mobs taking longer to kill not bad perse especially whit influx of players

[ancient parcel]

Of course, we want it to feel good / fun

[brisk estuary]

I really already gave up on my main character and will just start fresh, at this point I will never catch up to my skill lvl

[lone parrot]

Do that then

[brisk estuary]

doing it right now

hoping that by the time I get to lvl 28 it is not a complete mess

[ancient parcel]

What class u rollin

[lone parrot]

But yeah if they go back to as it was before and half combat technically same but whit more people gonna be problems mobs died way too fst

[brisk estuary]

Warden

[stable garden]

Just play heavy armor and spam kobold dungeon, 38 skill in no time

[ancient parcel]

https://tenor.com/bdooy.gif

[lone parrot]

If I was doing a mhm and someone was there at the same time I just took ages

[brisk estuary]

I absolutely doubt that this tech is any good it would take you forever to do that

[lone parrot]

Now we get same XP but just 1 mob instead of 2 so fine

Just gotta make sure @ancient parcel drop rates get adjusted if mobs take longer to kill a 1/2000 drop gonna take way longer now

[stable garden]

Actually not as much as you're thinking, I honestly dont do that because i want to feel the game as it should be on my level

[brisk estuary]

dude I was getting 25k armor xp every 5 miutes with my tech and took me 25 hours to go from 30 to 33 how is that no time?

you even know how much xp you need from 33 to 38 dude that is going to be like 5 or 6 times what it took me to reach 33

and is not even fun to do

[lone parrot]

Yeah isn't bad tbh it's a MMO there should be grind

En it's same for combat as for skills

[brisk estuary]

yeah but if the grind is just me grinding my lvls and then at the same time getting my skill lvls then I don't mind

I also feel like getting to 40 actually is not that hard

[lone parrot]

Yeah but rn your skills will be 40 when your char is 40 if you start from scratch

[brisk estuary]

If I was dedicating all my time to just lvl up I would already be 40

[stable garden]

Yeah, my heavy is about to reach 34, and i'm not even trying to level it up, IF i had enought gold/bars I can level it to 35 today, maybe close to 36, as long as I have my enchanter pet 🤣

[ancient parcel]

guys

[stable garden]

We lost focus, sorry haha

[ancient parcel]

u will want to be 40 for the new drip

just sayin

[stable garden]

The 2h axe is 30 tho

[ancient parcel]

ur thinking of this one

[lone parrot]

Sheesh wish staffs looked this good

[stable garden]

I dont think so, which one is this? Name

[ancient parcel]

we are a bit lacking on the staff models

[ancient parcel]

Infernal Reach

[stable garden]

Ok, maybe, MAYBE I'm wrong haha

[lone parrot]

But yeah Ryan how you feeling on drop rate? Mobs slower to kill which alright but then I'ma be farming the same mob 2 times as long as before

Statistically speaking

[brisk estuary]

that looks great

[brisk estuary]

for me it would be more like need to be 42 or 41 so that my skill lvl is at that point

[lone parrot]

Yeah but that's what was bound to happen

There is no fix for it ever gonna be we are just gonna take lil longer

[stable garden]

Also, want me to test ttk as demon knight on every monster from 33-35?
Why 35 if I'm 33? Because mh level range sucks

[brisk estuary]

that is why I will just start fresh at least I would just be fuck from the beginning

[brisk estuary]

for demon knight they are expecting it to be slow due to it being a tank

[lone parrot]

Well gonna lvl Al skill at same speed

[stable garden]

Yeah, I plan to do the same as shadowcaster, warden, cultist and test the ttk of monsters on my zerker

[lone parrot]

Tank takes slower but losses less health so rest less, while DPS take more but deal more so more resting

[brisk estuary]

yeah until I played guardian and was getting fucked and needing to rest anyways

[stable garden]

Also, i can kill at least 2 at the same time on nearly all monsters

Besides leshii

[brisk estuary]

yeah forget about that lol once you get to lvl 36+ monsters just don't even try

[ancient parcel]

I think step 1 is dial in the TTK correctly

[stable garden]

Maybe on some weaker mobs? Haha

[ancient parcel]

MH level range was fine before, and you should be able to kill +3, thats why we setup the brackets

this means we need to fix stuff on our end

also yes a test of TTK saamples would be very helpful

[stable garden]

DmK got a huge buff so, idk, could happen

[lone parrot]

You got the tanking ring from doll and lvl 35 tank armor?

[lone parrot]

Alright

Il keep you posted

[stable garden]

I'll do it later then, hope I remember all mobs haha
About mh, I feel monsters lv35 are balanced on t8 armor, since I'm using t7, the damage hurts a little, as I said, I can kill them, but it is harder

[brisk estuary]

yep

[sharp nest]

I’ll be happy when I can do 30-35 MH tasks per 10 hours again 🤣

[ancient parcel]

https://tenor.com/bfksb.gif

[ancient parcel]

yes that is accurate, it's part of the template I posted

We could change the balancing variables to add more leeway to TTK based on the player's level/gear

right now a 35 mob is tested with assassin in full crafted items, jewelry, and some standard trinkets

full consumes - elixir, food, enchants, etc

no oils though which can be +% damage

[tropic geyser]

And no lvl 40 gear

[lone parrot]

Yeah so class balance showing its true colors

[stable garden]

Oh, is it possible for mh to give 2 monsters for me to choose from? Because the moment I get leshii from mh, i wont do it

[ancient parcel]

thats why we have the skip mechanic with writs

[stable garden]

Too many writs haha

[ancient parcel]

as we add more mobs to the pools it'll get less likely to get an undesirable task

[stable garden]

And there's the possibility of skipping a monster into the same monster

[lone parrot]

4 cyclops in a row 😭

[stable garden]

And losing 3 writs

But seriously, why 3? Can't it be one?

[sharp nest]

Das OP

[stable garden]

I paid 3 writs to skip leshii into leshii, mever skipping again

[ancient parcel]

we will have a block mechanic at some point as well

so u can block the ones u really hate

[stable garden]

Thx, please block all monster other than dawnhounds, thx

[sharp nest]

Gotta put a lege weapon at 5k writs then ain’t no one skipping 🤣 jk jk

[stable garden]

Also, that's why berserker gets clapped, the class is already weak, if mh sends me to kill any lv 35 monster, half of them I cant kill

Yesterday to kill ONE lunarion I had to use pot and that invincibility, stood at 1 hp on the last second

[lone parrot]

https://tenor.com/view/the-dark-knight-some-men-just-want-to-watch-the-world-burn-batman-alfred-michael-caine-gif-7830741530792587551

[stable garden]

Using elixirs and food haha

[ancient parcel]

can u try w latest patch? i'll come observe

[stable garden]

Give me 15 minutes

[brisk estuary]

lunarios are just fucking busted right now and the primordial one always attack you along side a normal one

[ancient parcel]

is it aggressive?

[stable garden]

Agressive is that silence

[brisk estuary]

as soon as a normal one attacks you it also agros

[stable garden]

I feel like lunarion uses silence every second

I'm always silenced

[brisk estuary]

yeah also why the fuck I cannot use skill when silenced as a berserker like wtf?

am I swinging my axe with my mouth or what?

[stable garden]

Oh, that's why zerker is so weak then haha

[ancient parcel]

checking on that

[stable garden]

Found the problem

[lone parrot]

whit all prims to

just gotta not agro when they are both next to each other

[fathom arrow]

I am currently 33 on a shadow blade and all my kills on mobs 33-35 are taking 30 seconds

[lone parrot]

alrighty

what your gear?

[fathom arrow]

33 armor 30 weapons

Potted and food

[lone parrot]

alrigth got a screenshot?

[fathom arrow]

Off my computer currently

[lone parrot]

alright send 1 when you on

[ancient parcel]

keep sharing reports here, very helpful info

the last patch should make an impact, so new data will be good

[sharp nest]

Wait for mammoths suckers be aggroing from downtown

[stable garden]

If you give me a list of lv 33-35 mobs I can give you a nice feedback on at least 3 classes haha

[ancient parcel]

desert serpent
harvest reaper
superior arcane
demon tyrants
lunarion
leshii
dawnhound
duskhound

[tropic geyser]

Also if you want extra credit, test some 36 mobs like yetis

[stable garden]

Ok, just gonna eat and begin the massacre

I just dont know who'll be massacred

Me or the mobs

[lone parrot]

i tested yetis while 39 seemed real slow

like 20 seconds

unless there just released a patch didnt test now

yesterday did

[stable garden]

I will test in triplicate: one using the BK set enchanted with STR and the other using the 33 set enchanted with CON. I will test both sets with a club and an axe, using only an elixir since I'm out of food, haha.

As demon, only str as zerker

maybe I'll test con as a zerker, maybe I can find something interesting haha

[fathom arrow]

I’ll make a list of ttk tomorrow when I’m up and I’ll post it here

[tropic geyser]

Thanks guys!

[tropic geyser]

Can you guys try killing mobs now? There was something we changed on global modifiers for irumesa that was not present on my testing map. Should reduce all aspects by 10%

[stable garden]

I'm gonna do it now, gonna take some time tho.

[tropic geyser]

You have no idea how much doing this will help me

@ancient parcel check this guy out ^^

[ancient parcel]

what a G

[tropic geyser]

What a (G)inno

[sharp nest]

y’all better pay ginno a wage now😳

[tropic geyser]

1 primordium per hour 🤣

[stable garden]

considering I'm using Def items/weapons and level 30 ones, zerker feels decent on dawnhounds haha

let me try with dmg rings

Yeap, 15-16 seconds with damage rings, but I finished with 10% hp (considering no vamp on my axe)

[stable garden]

this will take forever, keep getting distracted by herbs haha

[lone parrot]

what is sprocket getting 3 primordium?

[ancient parcel]

hes getting paid in manafused rinthistle

[lone parrot]

Man got that high paying job

[fathom arrow]

These are my TTK as a 33 shadowblade in t7.5 gear and t7 weapons. Food and pot buffed. Sustain is fine while killing them

Desert Serpent 27s
Harvest Reaper 27s
Superior Arcane 33s
Demon tyrants 35s
Lunarion 27s
Leshii 28s
Dawnhound 30s
Duskhound 44s (Probs due to shadow resist)

Superior Lightning Eles 30s
Superior Air Eles 30s
Superior Water Eles 30s
Superior Earth Eles 30s
Superior Fire Eles 30s

[ancient parcel]

just for intel purposes, did you have enchanted gear as well?

[fathom arrow]

Sorry forgot to add that

yeah i do with all dex and vamp

but old vamp on weapons

[ancient parcel]

roger that kk

[stable garden]

Gonna take some time, but it is filling up haha

I'm using the exact same skill order, for obvious reasons

tf you guys have done to leshii? haha

[brisk estuary]

wait but you have bugged vamp or fixed vamp?

[lone parrot]

Sheesh

That looks horrifying

[lone parrot]

Thus as well

[ancient parcel]

how much longer would you say these are vs before the patch?

[ancient parcel]

how much longer would you say these are vs before the patch?

[stable garden]

What I feel is that lunarion takes less time to die, sup lightning about the same time and dawnhounds take less time

[stable garden]

after 4,5 hours, I'm done

@ancient parcel @tropic geyser
There are some stuff to consider, let me explain.

[tropic geyser]

ok so in the cells, what are the numbers

you killed them twice?

and that's the time?

or seconds, millisecond

[stable garden]

seconds, miliseconds haha

Ok
1 - I'm main tank, so my heavy is above my melee. As you can see, my armor is T7.5, but my weapon is only T7, should probably lower it after i switch to T7.5 weapon;
2 - If I switch to damage rings on zerker I die nearly all the time;
3 - There's a better axe for zerker, but again, without the defense sometimes I die, the TTK should lower by a second tho;
4 - The TTK on DmK is completely misleading, because I never kill one by one.

As an example:

• If I lure 2 dawnhounds with an average TTK of 28 seconds, the first will die in 28 seconds, but the seconds will die in 15 seconds, it should be about 21.5 per monster;
  But hey, I can lure 4-5 without dying so.. completely misleading

Probably the same for the Dragon Knight

Also, on comments there's the average HP after the kill

Oh, a few more comments, Superior Lightning Elemental is weak af for some reason, at least on me. I remember he was a killing machine

Way weaker than the other elementals

[lone parrot]

30 Seconds lowest to kill a mob is insane

A nvm demon knight

[stable garden]

Yeah, but I'm using t7 weapon on a lv 35 mob, should be way lower when I hit 35 melee

But when I hit 35 melee, my heavy armor will probably be at 38 🤣

[lone parrot]

My light 37 and magic 36

Char lvl 39 lol

[stable garden]

My heavy is more than one entire level above melee

Heavy 33 95%, melee 32 50%

And I'm not using books on heavy

[stable garden]

And the actual time is less than that because I always kill more than one at the same time, my ttk on dawnhounds should be less than 13 seconds

Per mob

[lone parrot]

Yeah idk for me mobs 24 second

[summer hornet]

Some good solid data to help inform balancing

[fathom arrow]

Bugged

[fathom arrow]

At least 8-10 seconds

Takes me 25-35 mins to do one MH quest

[ancient parcel]

kk

[lone parrot]

Wish I could test but kust killing zealots

Il get that sword @tropic geyser idc how long it takes

Or that fact that I can't even use it

[tropic geyser]

Hell yeah

[brisk estuary]

you would need to text with fixed vamp

[fathom arrow]

ill make some weapons with new vamp and give it a whirl

[fathom arrow]

So testing with the unbugged vamp, I kill one mob and end up on 30-50% health (depending on mob). If i chain pull into the next I have to 100% use a health pot and even then when I kill the second mob I am pretty dead on 10-20% health.

I pretty much have to rest after every single mob unless I blow a health pot

[brisk estuary]

same experience for me playing as assassin

[fathom arrow]

along with the longer kill times, its rough as

[brisk estuary]

yeah is not fun at all

try using some bandages they have 1 minute cd lol

[tropic geyser]

Still shadowblade?

[tropic geyser]

I just want to be sure. What’s not fun about it? The fact that MH takes too long? That you’re not killing things fast enough? How are you feeling stymied

[brisk estuary]

that you are almost dead all of the time is what is not fun

[tropic geyser]

ok, and again, for clarification reasons, the before state was that you could kill >1 mob per rest and so now it just feels sluggish

so >1 mob per rest is ideal

[brisk estuary]

I think it should be like 3 mobs and then rest or make it so that we can use bandages more often

[tropic geyser]

does eveyone else in here feel like this is a good sentinment? @stable garden @fathom arrow @summer hornet @sharp nest @lone parrot ?

[sharp nest]

That’s how it was before life steal ☠️

[summer hornet]

Dunno, I kill 3-5 at a time as a DmKing, dun need no rest afterwards usually. For normie classes it might be okay

[sharp nest]

The question is do I really have to rest at mfing lvl 46?

[brisk estuary]

good question

[sharp nest]

been sitting on my ass since lvl 1 - 35

[brisk estuary]

imagine working your ass off so that a regular mob have it handed to you

[stable garden]

same as @summer hornet haha but if I think about my berserker, it's frustrating all the kill, almost die, sit

i would like to kill more than 1 monster before having to rest

[tropic geyser]

@ancient parcel look above at general sentiment. So 33% hp per encounter

[stable garden]

yeah, it is kinda frustrating

At least i feel really weak because of that

[tropic geyser]

we will keep working on it and get it to a spot where people feel comfortable

[lone parrot]

Think I don't need to rest as caster only 4/5 kills

[brisk estuary]

maybe monsters are good and the problem is just some classes

[sharp nest]

Ngl it was fine before. Only certain mobs made me rest. even with heal sword and pot

[brisk estuary]

Ginno was not having issues as a demon knight

[tropic geyser]

my hunch is that we need to close the gap on classes

my hunch is also that DmK is OP rn

[brisk estuary]

also again make it so that we can use bandages more often 1 minute is too long

[tropic geyser]

buff to half the cd on ZoG and the healing is still super big

[lone parrot]

It takes me 25 seconds to kill to

Which feels like Ages

[summer hornet]

DmKing is not OP, try killing Drakal as DmKing

[tropic geyser]

drakal is a BOSS

[summer hornet]

...10 mins later... outta mana

[sharp nest]

I’m dying

[summer hornet]

DmK cannot kill Drakal at all though... ever... some classes can

That is OP, DmK is mid but can tank like a BAWSE

...because we are tanks, AOE tanks

the most OP tank is actually... not DmKing >.>

[fathom arrow]

yeah all on shadowblade

[summer hornet]

We do what we say on the box, AOE tank. In no way are we OP, we have some sustain, do low-mid AOE damage but soak damage well... not as well as Guardian or Earthguard

We don't do anywhere close to AOE damage as DPS classes and we shouldn't... but we can soak some damage, do some self heals, put out mid AOE damage... NOT OP

[stable garden]

i dont think DmK is op rn, what turn it OP is that the other classes are kinda meh haha

[summer hornet]

OP was Earthguard when they could do the entire top floor of Tower... that was OP

[stable garden]

at the moment i dare to say DmK is right bellow warden, maybe equal, because the dmg is low. But we do what we're supposed to, AoE lifesteal haha

take ages to kill? yes

[fathom arrow]

i feel like that would feel alot smoother

But TTK should still be abit faster

[tropic geyser]

👍

[stable garden]

also, I also have to rest after each encounter

to regen mana haha

[stable garden]

@tropic geyser so, interesting piece of info for you, kinda solved my problems on berserker

Vamp/BT sucks, Impact Essence is the way, I kill way faster and take less damage because of it, and pray for bloodlust to sustain me

[tropic geyser]

impact is just dmg right?

what's your ttk with impact?

[stable garden]

16,38 on tyrant haha

[tropic geyser]

not bad

[stable garden]

24 without it

50% hp on kill, can kill 2

[tropic geyser]

yeah

might work with berserker, but only that class

[stable garden]

nop, works on demon knight haha, my healing is better with impact than BT

vamp*

I deal more damage, so I heal more and kill faster

[tropic geyser]

because DmK heals based on damage

[stable garden]

Yeah, should work on warden and a few more classes

As a demon knight, ttk on sup wind from 41 to 26

[tropic geyser]

what the

wait how much dmg is impact? lol

[stable garden]

30

[tropic geyser]

mm

[stable garden]

wait

15

[tropic geyser]

kk

[stable garden]

30 on 2 handers

I need to test on some other monsters, but I think it will be way better on most of them

and I'm not even using the highest dmg axe I can

please dont nerf me again haha let my impact essence alone

[ancient parcel]

35 v 38 Testing

Just tested these setups in 4 trials per class

Enchants: T7 Armor + Vamp
Elixir: T7
Food: T7

Monster: Cyclops
HP: 17100
Resistances: No
Weaknesses: No

Assassin - High DPS
▲
|
▼
Earthguard - Low DPS

Assassin
Trial 1 - 50% HP 16s TTK
Trial 2 - 50% HP 17s TTK
Trial 3 - 55% HP 15s TTK
Trial 4 - 65% HP 15s TTK
AVG: 16s / 1,068 DPS

Spellblade
Trial 1 - 20% HP 18s TTK
Trial 2 - 50% HP 18s TTK
Trial 3 - 25% HP 17s TTK
Trial 4 - 20% HP 17s TTK
AVG: 17s / 1,005 DPS

@sharp nest bulwark needs phys back - added it for next patch

Illusionist
Trial 1 - 60% HP 20s TTK
Trial 2 - 50% HP 16s TTK
Trial 3 - 60% HP 16s TTK
Trial 4 - 60% HP 16s TTK
AVG: 17s / 1,005 DPS

Warden
Trial 1 - 80% HP 21s TTK
Trial 1 - 75% HP 24s TTK
Trial 1 - 70% HP 23s TTK
Trial 1 - 80% HP 24s TTK
AVG: - 23s / 743 DPS

Earthguard
Trial 1 - 80% HP 29s TTK
Trial 2 - 75% HP 26s TTK
Trial 3 - 80% HP 26s TTK
Trial 4 - 80% HP 26s TTK
AVG: 27s / 633 DPS

Conclusion

Based on these tests, we are thinking roughly -20% TTK will achieve the target (keep in mind this is 35 v 38 mob, so 35 v 35 will be what it was pre-patch)

16s -> 13s
17s -> 14s
17s -> 14s
23s -> 18s
27s -> 22s

[sharp nest]

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-anime-anime-side-eye-dan-da-dan-side-eye-turbo-granny-gif-1190417247972633666

[lone parrot]

Alright when will these numbers go live?

[tropic geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/daria-monke-orangutan-demand-youfr-gif-27135853

[lone parrot]

i still dont get why mh books give me 190k combat compared to 56k light

[ancient parcel]

added at the end, using the old turn in formula

we can split that book off and make it 40+

[lone parrot]

still doesnt make sense then. that would mean you would always take combat after 40 becuase the number is 4x

[brisk estuary]

just think about it like a way for you to lvl up another type or armor or weapon that is mainly the reason I think books should continue to exist

[stable garden]

Is it not possible for the book to give the same amount of exp but to 3 skills of choice? haha then there'll be no way for us to complain that combat exp is broken on the books

because if combat exp is 3x higher, and we can use 1x exp on 3 skills, thats the same exp but distributed haha

[lone parrot]

idk why it isnt the same for skills as combat 180k combat is 180k skill exp simple you cant say it will become the best activity for exp since it already is

[ancient parcel]

combat will naturally exceed your skills bc of class switching and doing different things, it should be far higher long term (40+) - more of an indicator of how much you've played

taking book every task at 40+ seems fine, 40-50 is for some slight power gain and bragging rights

you still have the option to use it on a lower skill too if you find yourself needing a bump

[stable garden]

@ancient parcel but when you made the changes, you guys said MH shouldn't be the main way to level up and the monsters would give more exp so mh isn't the only way. But as an example, if you kill 60 monsters and said monster gives you 1500 exp, that's 90k. Then you use the book and it gives you an extra 180. at least TO ME it seems like MH is the only way to level up haha

And if the exp is that high, MH will always be the only way to level up

And as you said, this disparity between combat level and skill level is caused by the large number of classes. The way things are now, this gap will only keep growing because what we really need to level up are skills. Even if you say to just avoid combat on books, it’s still there and keeps giving an absurd amount of experience compared to skills.

[ancient parcel]

Is this example factoring the removal of combat xp until 40+?

This would position them as extra xp once you’ve already achieved the highest bracket

Initially we weren’t going to have combat xp but scabby disliked this as it eliminated his incentive

Keeping the combat xp for that incentive while focusing on skill xp under 40 seems like a solution to both issues

[stable garden]

I follow what you're saying, but you're basing your decision on scabby likes and dislikes throwing an absurd amount of exp at him because he wants combat.
I have no problem if books give combat exp, but the exp is absurd, just that.

Oh, and just a comment, I get more melee exp killing 21 dawnhounds than I get from the books, because skill exp on the books is just too low

[ancient parcel]

40 to 50 is around 960M xp which is why the books giving a lot makes sense

I should have listened to crank’s wisdom from the beginning, he said to put them 40+ right away

Now it looks like a lot by comparison

[stable garden]

But ryan, the way combat exp from books is now, you're creating a disparity between the players, the ones 40+ will get absurd exp and always be waaaaay ahead than the others reaching 40 now.
Instead of helping players catch up to the ones playing this game for 800 years for group content , the distance is getting further and further away, the way it is now, by next month there'll be 5-6 players that can only do group content by themselves and that's it, no other player can reach even close

even if they need lots of exp to level up

Now think for another perspective, this is an alpha so whatever. But when the game lauches? whoever gets to 40 will just get way ahead of everyone else in a few monster hunters

[ancient parcel]

40-50 is not intended to have significant power gain from levels

You can equip the same gear, trinkets, etc

Level 40-41 might take as much time as 30-40 does for example

Because the xp is far less from 1-40, you will progress faster than a 40+ player despite the book reward

[stable garden]

how much exp does a lvl 40 needs to level up to 41?

[lone parrot]

Yeah combat really doesn increase your damage that much past 40

[stable garden]

but will this remain like this forever?

what if they add lvl 45 gear? 50?

[ancient parcel]

A whip required 75 attack to wield in 2005

Now the top weapon osmumtems fang requires 82 attack 20 years later

If we add increased requirements it’ll be quite some time

The reason for this design system is to maintain the game’s longevity as we try to create a 10k hour / 20 year game

[stable garden]

@lone parrot how much exp you get from lvl 39 monsters? also, how many you need to kill on your mh's?

combat exp

also, how much combat exp a lvl 40 gets from mh?

just doing some math here

[lone parrot]

Mh depends which monster

Cyclops 69

Lvl39 mobs give 1700 XP

[stable garden]

i mean, how much exp a lv 40 gets from books

i believe more than 180k, right?

[lone parrot]

prolly 187k i think

[stable garden]

ok, I'll use average 50 monsters per mh and 180k per book, just a sec

[ancient parcel]

ill give u the XP for the mobs too, one sec

41 = 2300
42+ = 2500

40 isn't needed right now bc no mobs are flat 40

[stable garden]

so, players lvl 40 need to kill lv 42+ mobs, right?

[normal vector]

41 2050 Werewolf

42 lvl mob 2250

[ancient parcel]

at 40 you get the final bracket which has 41, 42, and 43 mobs

[normal vector]

lvl 41 2070xp

[stable garden]

wait, my quick math ain't mathing quick

It's about the same number of MH from 30-40 than 40-45, because 30-40 we cant throw our exp at combat because we have at least 3 skills to level up

Well, we can, but then we'll get screwed like dragon

That's about 230 hours from 30-40 If i do mh nonstop at a 30min/mh rate
250 for 40-45

And now i lost myself in my own argument and forgot what i was talking about haha

I think i've done this because ryan told us the time to level from 30-40 is the same as 40-41?

Idk, but my point is: we cant use combat exp on books bellow 40 because of our skill exp, as ryan said we have multiclasses. but maybe, just MAYBE if the skill exp from the book becomes a little higher there's the possibility of reducing those 230 hours to maybe 200 without a huge buff on exp, and incentive players to change to other skills, maybe.

And that's considering I don't procrastinate, those 230 hours for me will be like 800

my adhd is on fire today, can't even conclude a thought

what a mess haha

[normal vector]

Im 1300 hr deep almost 43 and this is with me collecting all the relics which slowed lvling down

[ancient parcel]

i didnt have the actual numbers I just meant it takes longer as you go higher, with minor power gain

I know it feels like a lot now but we still haven't had any 'optimal strats' yet

when classic wow launched for example - totally different game than now where u can speedrun 1-60 in like 3 days /played if you're Joana (RIP to him)

[stable garden]

this is my slow quick math, considered 0 on book exp because that exp goes to skills

oh, I considered 30-35, ignoring the fact that 30-31 is from another mh table

[ancient parcel]

just to make sure i follow the chart - 137 tasks 30 to 35 and 337 tasks 35 to 40 ?

[stable garden]

yeah

not real numbers tho, because I used 50 monsters/mh. should be like 300 tasks

[ancient parcel]

for sure, approximated

[stable garden]

and maybe 150-160 from 30-35

did you get what i'm trying to say? it's all over the place, i admit that even i'm confused by what I'm trying to say haha

[tropic geyser]

any takeaways?

im waiting to make a move here

streaming the changes so yall can see my process

[stable garden]

@tropic geyser is it possible for you to test as shadowcaster later?

[tropic geyser]

what's your rotation

[stable garden]

idk, not even playing shadowcaster haha

[tropic geyser]

shadowcaster killed cyclops in 12

[stable garden]

yeah i saw that, gotta change to medium then

the problem is light haha

[ancient parcel]

changes are live now for testing

[lone parrot]

Wish I could but Rat

[tropic geyser]

Seems like we are getting some reports on mobs being too easy

On damage side

Can we get a player barometer on this? What level are mobs feeling too easy? Which classes?

[stable garden]

@tropic geyser
So, we're in dangerous zone because, in addition to mob balancing, there's also class balancing involved. Were these complaints about higher-level monsters? Because in the 20- range, I remember some really weak monsters, but since there was a rebalance, I'm unsure what to say.

[tropic geyser]

Yeah I just want to get a general idea

[stable garden]

Ok, let me give my perspective on the monsters I kill regularly with my class, DmK.

If I'm not mistaken there are 3 monsters i struggle a little bit to kill, most of them, besides elementals, I can kill 2 or more, but that's what my class is supposed to do and I'm always out of mana instead of hp after each encounter. Oh, lv 35 monsters.

As for monsters 20-, I remember kobold, mudlurker and shrooms (besides the purple one) being omega weak, idk if there was an effective rebalance there

Also, monsters being easy is relative, when playing Heavy/medium armor most monsters will be easy, and the same monsters destroy light armor users

[tropic geyser]

Yeah I get that there will be a difference

I just need to know how tanks are faring in the late game mobs. Apparently DmK can solo a bunch of mobs and take no dmg

[stable garden]

I believe DrK is the same as demon knight with a little more dmg, can't really talk about the other 2 and on even higher level mobs
The thing with DmK is mana, my hp is ok. Also, don't think it has been easy to kill stuff, I believe i'm already pretty good at the class to avoid some stupid deaths.
Well, it depends on what you mean by bunch, i can give you a list of what I can kill more than one haha.
Dawnhounds = 4 (potion + hp near 30%)
Duskhounds = 3 (potion and maybe I die)
Wind, Water, Fire, Earth Elementals = 1
Arcanic Essence = 1
Lightning Elemental = 2-3
Desert serpent = 1 (can tank 2 but takes too long to kill)
Harvest Reapers = 3
Leshii = 1
Lunarion = 2

If i take on mobs 1 by 1 i'll take no dmg, be out of mana and take a month to kill, because the class don't seem to be designed this way

I don't really know what to say, maybe you can open another discussion and ask ppl on the general/game chat to post their experiences with mobs?

Probably you can gather some more info this way

[tropic geyser]

yeah potentially

[stable garden]

@tropic geyser considering it is a lv 37 monster, are rat brutes any strong compared to l38 mobs?

[tropic geyser]

wdym?

they should be comparable to a level 37 mob

38 should be harder

[stable garden]

Oh, it's because I discovered I can kill 3 of them at the same time and they seem easier than some lv 35 monsters, but if they're close to lv 38 monsters then maybe DmK is a little bit over haha

I shouldn't be able to take 3 lv 37 mobs at lvl 33 with relatively ease

I'll kill some other monsters on this lvl and maybe some at 38 later, maybe demon is kinda over and I just didn't want to see it haha

Maybe it's because they're mainly physical so idk

[wintry solar]

my abilities do 50 dmg to these guys it takes me like 5 mins per kill lmfao

I don't have fire oils

like 2 hours of work

kill me

[short scaffold]

As my crus 33 - about 15sec

[wintry solar]

im guardian not dps

Im extremely tanky tho I can tank 2 of them just takes me 10 business days

[short scaffold]

Bad thing that guardians is only one at relic class

[wintry solar]

yep you stick with it

[lone parrot]

just get another relic

discipline easy to lvl

[wintry solar]

I got 3 but I didn't like any of them

[lone parrot]

tanks and healers ass for solo

[wintry solar]

still think guardian is better dps even

berzerker is extremely squishy I can't even solo 1 mob below my lvl with how little hp I got

guardian I can solo 2-3

[lone parrot]

beserker is ass

[wintry solar]

zerker would be very good in group play tho

[lone parrot]

go crusader or pally

[wintry solar]

sacrifice all my defences for slightly more dmg is rough yeah

[brisk estuary]

if you still want to play as a tank and kill things solo you can play earth guard that class can pull like 8 mobs and kill everything in no time you just need to enchant armor with int and use int accessories

you can also bring a healer along for more safety but pretty sure you can still survive, maybe for higher lvl mobs a healer would not be bad and you both would be able to get a lot of experience due to how fast that class can kill an insane amount of monsters at a time

You can still use tank rings with that class and just use int neck, int enchants in the armor is really important

[wintry solar]

yeah true another issue is MH gives me creatures nearly 3-4 lvls above me

you 100% do way more to stuff closer to your lvl some hidden scaling

I got lvl 33 so now killing 35s should be a bit easier

[brisk estuary]

it gets worse as soon as you get to 36 it sends you to kill lvl 38-39 mobs

but again Earth Guard is the most tanky class in the game and the damage it deals is also crazy probably that is your best option for tank gameplay

either that or demon knight but I don't like demon knight