Sec Level Rebalance

[dry drift]

This has been mentioned before a fair amount prior to 1.0 release, but now that we've got the full game I think it still needs addressing.

The jump from sec 0 > 1 > 2 is very quick, which is reasonable as that's when the game opens up. At 2 you have low level guns, still the terrible backpack and vest, and are generally limited in stims and food. This takes a reasonable amount of time to get to 3, which opens up some other options, but you still don't get any ARs (excluding stashed and the ak74u iirc), meaning you're reliant on the mosin you find and later the AK the game gives you.

3 to 4 felt like a slog. Rec centre, then the diving deep mission, and finally the outskirts mission feel like a really long haul to get to 4, just to give you the option of buying guns at that level, when realistically you've been using them for a while from stashed finds.

So after having run an AR or at least the mosin for all of sec 3, you're rewarded with... more ARs and the potential to run suppressors + NVDs with a helmet. The change here felt like almost nothing to me personally, except I now had access to outskirts and better rewards from missions.

So after a long wait for sec 4 for not much of a gameplay benefit, you then get sec 5 quickly and just before the final mission, and are given very little opportunity to use the guns in that tier, bar the Groza if you count it as sec 5.

I think mission 6 should give sec 4. I understand the dev vision that you go into outskirts, do the mission and then get sec 4, but it pushes sec 5 so far back that we never get to play with the guns. They're the best guns in the game. Leaving them to the last second so I only get a couple of hours with them is terrible.

Tl;dr, sec 0 through 3 felt fine, maybe 2 was slightly too long, but 3 > 4 took too long for no real change in my loadout, and 5 > ending was too short. I would rather have a very short 4 > 5 for more time to play with the best guns, especially when 3 > 4 gives very little.

I think increasing security requirements for the final 2 missions after unlocking sec 5 would be a nice way to give us more time with the guns too, and make it so that you're loaded, cash rich and ready for the endgame

[drowsy storm]

I found SL3>4 the most enjoyable SL in the game. Stashed weapons were a massive reward as they were the only way of getting an assault rifle. Fixed stashes there is the AK74 in the pool (which already is basically a mission reward as the mission takes you to it), there is also the AK74U next to the diving board and an M4A1 near the rail line. There's no shortage of ARs to find that are fixed spawns, not to mention your RNG rolls for weapon spawns.

The slightly longer progression from 3 to 4 made it a fun challenge and allowed for more experimentation between different stashed guns as well as meaningful loadout choices on upgrading SMGs vs Shotguns vs Stashed ARs.

Not having silencers for ARs made your loadout choices significant by making sure you carried a pistol with one. This for me was very enjoyable as it made your ammunition choices more significant. If everything is suppressed you don't need to worry about running out of ammo for your suppressed gun, you just switch to your other suppressed gun.

The point of opening up ARs in the shop at SL4, despite you using stashed ARs for a while is that the shop ones are better. They have better stats and better mounting points. You might have already bought parts for them to upgrade your stashed gun, so you're not even needing to buy complete guns, you just buy the body for another upgrade. It's part of the gameplay progression mechanics.

SL 4 'not much gameplay benefit'. It opens outskirts. That's a major gameplay benefit. It opens up ARs with suppressors. That's a major gameplay benefit.

Also 'little opportunity to use the guns in that tier' - the game doesn't end. You can use them in the post game as much as you like and you can use any of them before the final mission as much as you like. If you pushed yourself to complete the game and then stopped playing, I don't understand the complaint about opportunities to use SL5 guns. It's kinda like chugging a beer and then complaining it didn't last long enough - the opportunity to go a little slower is there, there's no urgency imposed on you.

I feel like there's a significant amount of playstyle that will change from player to player. For me I didn't really find any of the SLs as a slog because I'd just take every mission available, plan a route, tick then all off, then come back. Personally I finished the game wishing the security points needed between each Top Priority mission were higher as until SL4, almost every run into the radius was a Top Priority mission, and from SL4 every second run was a Top Priority mission. That means I finished the game with maybe 16 total runs in and out of the radius.

I feel like the conversation would be better if a little more focussed than general vibes. I suspect we have common ground on things like - it is silly to me that most sniper rifles are restricted to SL5. I feel like there should be more than just the Mosin available at SL4.

[dry drift]

Last paragraph here shows you didn't really understand my point

[drowsy storm]

I only half agree with this. I'd like the security points to be higher, but at no point in the game did I feel like I was not rich enough, or equipped enough for any missions. I was playing on normal settings. The final mission was one of the only ones I finished with very low ammo, and that's on me as I took every other normal mission and did them before hand. My own point from earlier would rebut me though - if I wanted to play more, I didn't have to do the final mission, so IDK if i stand by wanting higher security points.

[drowsy storm]

How so?

[dry drift]

Moving to outskirts is indeed a big leap, but it doesnt need to be linked to sec 4

Sec 4 in terms of shop items is just slightly upgrading gun stats

You likely continue to use the same gun as you said

You have all the parts

So if 4 is unlinked from outskirts, which it doesn't have to be, then what game impact really changes from 3>4

[drowsy storm]

Yeah but I finished the game with an M4A1, so you could say that post SL3 everything becomes irrelevant as ARs are always going to be the most efficient choice.

I only diversified my loadout because I forced myself to. I went AK74U->AKM->SKS->M4A1

[dry drift]

Right but youve chosen to force yourself, I think most gamers will look for the easiest/cheapest path so they can save for a sec 5 gun

[drowsy storm]

Gives access to ARs for anyone that has not found a stash.

[dry drift]

You get the ak74 from rec room

Like it's a 100% spawn

It's missable sure

[drowsy storm]

I'd say that's entirely preference though. The SL5 guns arent that great.

[dry drift]

But the gameplay impact for 90% of players is negligible

[dry drift]

Sure but let me use them and find that out before the game ends is all

[drowsy storm]

I'd need to check parts, but pretty sure silencers for ARs are available. which is pretty huge.

[dry drift]

Ok let me put it this way

Suppressors are kinda big, but really the game impact is pretty low from them as you end up in a firefight or not yeah

So by this point you probably have a suppressed pistol

You can't suppress the mosin still though

So it gives you slightly more capability to stealthily engage enemies, but usually you're going to end up in a proper fight

On top of this

Think of what sec 2 to 3 gives you

Bigger backpack, helmet, nvds, torches, smgs, better shotty and pistols

And this is meant to be your entry to outskirts too

[drowsy storm]

With enemies in outskirts mostly needing multiple pistol shots, increasing the likelihood of them detecting you and starting a big fight. A suppressed AR is a huge step up for a one shot kill.

talking about the mosin is pretty specific and I'm not sure it's a good example to change up entire SLs around.

[dry drift]

So you get... a weapon that does 3 more damage per shot, is a bit more reliable, and a suppressor for it

[dry drift]

If youre running the m4 you have the same damage as an m1911

And the beretta is only 9dmg off that

That can be suppressed from 3

[dry drift]

Mosin is the only sniper you get before 5

Dont count the sks that thing is a battle rifle

[drowsy storm]

Yep, and I already said that we probably have common ground there. It's silly that there are no other snipers available at SL 4

[dry drift]

Ok fair

I don't think we inherently disagree, but i do think that basically you're really waiting for sl3 > 5 as the next big jump after 2 > 3

[drowsy storm]

But that's my point, I don't think the security points between each level ar much of the issue. I think relatively minor tweaks would make some huge changes.

But I also don't think the jump at SL3 is what we should base each other SL on. Getting a bigger backpack and NVG is huge, I agree, but I don't think that should be the standard. If anything that highlights that the SL3 rewards should be toned down IMO.

[dry drift]

Possibly true also, but i think I just currently feel that most of the game is locked behind progression, and just as you get the best kit, the game ends

[drowsy storm]

Like night vision is huge, so why not move that to SL4

[dry drift]

So 0 through 3 are fun because youre a gremlin

But 4 and 5 are the real fights

[drowsy storm]

But the game doesnt end, the story ends, but the game goes on

[dry drift]

That's personal opinion, if you can enjoy playing the game with no set objective that's fine, but I'd rather restart and do a different difficulty, or ironman etc.

The journey is the fun for me, once it ends my incentive to continue plummets

[drowsy storm]

But you're saying you want using SL5 weapons to be a part of the journey. So why doesnt your gameplay continue after the story with your objective being to unlock and use each weapon. Why do you need a fixed story, that you already know the ending to, to be your motivation rather than setting your own goals.

[dry drift]

I think mine is not a terribly uncommon position, unless a game has dedicated post-game content or a fleshed out rpg system I don't enjoy just grinding away at the game after it's done. Really, giving us sl5 earlier isn't going to change the gameplay for someone like yourself, as you said you choose guns to force yourself into things anyway

You would simply choose not to buy those guns

But I am genuinely limited by the game

[drowsy storm]

Or why don't you play on high loot & high rewards so that once SL5 opens you can buy stuff.

Also there is a replayability issue here. If you used all the SL5 guns on your first play through, the replayability of the game goes down. Precisely because you didn't get to use them all before you finished the game is what will keep you interested on subsequent play throughs.

[dry drift]

I can buy stuff once sl5 opens, I have cash to do whatever, but it's, what, the mission prior to the final one it opens up?

[dry drift]

I play on realistic atm, not sure of the exact settings, but my enjoyment doesn't come from finishing the game, saying damn I wish I got to use the svd and then replaying just for that

I replay to challenge myself on ironman or low loot

To scrounge and play like it's stalker

What detriment would there be to bringing sl5 down for your gameplay

[drowsy storm]

Yeah, living organism alteration -M9 - gives you SL5 as a reward

[dry drift]

Yep so you have a single main mission/tide map clear to get SC to use them

Between 2-6 hours of gameplay depending on how much youve earned already

[drowsy storm]

You'll be around 130SP and need 152 for the final mission. So probably one long run into the radius and then the final mission opens up

[dry drift]

Yeah exactly

Not a lot of time in a 30-40 hour game to use them

2-6 hours max

I get the "just use them post game" but the game is literally over story wise

I did in itr1, picked up the scar and went on a few raids

But you get bored and reset pretty quick, it doesnt have the same feeling to me

And like I said, there's not really a detriment to giving us the guns slightly earlier, as sl4 doesn't give you a huge amount currently

[drowsy storm]

I guess that's one of the issues with the game lacking environmental storytelling & logs/ notes, for some people there is nothing outside of the storyline to do.
I used to be like that, but I feel it's easily overcome by setting your own objectives to do.

increasing the SP for the final mission I guess would make sense too for consistency. Especially as I think mission 6->7 is 40SP (42 ->80) but mission 9->10 is 20SP (130->152). Plus once you open outskirts, the SP rewards go to 3 for outskirts mission by default (1 for village, 2 for cooperative) so the game increases your progression of gaining SP. If anything the final mission should be closer to 200SP to unlock if we are being consistent.

[dry drift]

Yeah I agree with basically everything in that

The only thing I would say is completely personal choice is the "set your own objectives," if a game doesn't have something for me to do, even if I enjoy the gameplay, there's only so far that takes me

When I play RDR2, I can spend hours looking for herbs, pelts, setting my own objectives that way because the game has an incentive to craft, or to get the challenges

And I can do that for some games with less incentive, stalker gamma I might set a dedicated path to do something etc.

but this game is unfortunately just me and the radius, once the main storyline is resolved, there's no environmental storytelling or new areas to unlock as the game already shows you these, in fact it cuts you off from the in-between areas to explore too

So I would be setting my own objective, but that objective will likely just be the missions that the game generates, a specific set of gear I want to get or stashed guns I want to collect

but then what's the point to me?

I'd just play something else

[drowsy storm]

Yeah I do think we should be able to walk past Lauri to go back to the inbetween

[dry drift]

That was a banging reddit post, I need to find it again and give kudos

[drowsy storm]

But isnt the point the thing that you want in this post. The point is taking the SL5 guns out to try them without the pain in the ass of replying the entire game to unlock them. The point is trying a new loadout that you can afford because you're not min/maxing to complete the story asap. Having fun by trying dual wielding for a run, or good old 'shotty snipers' to relive the Halo 3 days.

[dry drift]

Ok but like I said, I take them for a few raids, "ok that was cool" and then it's just well, what now? The game is done, I could find something different to do, but as much as I like the game I'd rather play something where I feel the progress as I play

I think the mentality between us is just different and I can accept that

But my point is the same, is there any real detriment to you if we implemented your security level changes, or if we brought SL5 down slightly to access it a bit earlier?

[drowsy storm]

Because what we are essentially discussing is a difference of the order of operations. I'm saying, go do more missions after the story with SL5 weapons if you want to use them. You're saying you want to use them but which there were more missions before the story ended.

End point is a difference in the order of operations. Except on the first one, you're motivating yourself, the second one you're motivated by the story (with the side effect if implementing an arbitrary extension in gameplay on the entire player base)

[dry drift]

I think the fact that it's a story driven game would implicitly allow me to say, I should be driven by the story

I am driven by the story

my objective is to finish the game

I simply have less fun when doing things arbitrarily

[drowsy storm]

Fair point

Where would you move SL5 to?

Cus SL4 is mission 7, SL5 is currently mission 9.

[dry drift]

Mission 8, and I think drop SL4 back by one to mission 6

So you'd get 3 at mission 4, do rec room for the AK, next mission you can pimp the AK out a bit more etc.

you get one mission to check out the outskirts, and then after the door mission you get SL5 to do the last two missions

So you get 2 missions in outskirts on SL4, then 2 on SL5

Same as 3, you get 2 in forest

and I'd also implement your change and make the final 2 missions a bit harder to unlock

[drowsy storm]

I would be against that purely because I enjoyed the SL3 ->4 progression so much. It pushed me to use stashed weapons, it made finding weapons a huge incentive in my gameplay and it was really really enjoyable.

Plus you then dip your toe into outskirts, get back and have unlcoked SL4 to re-equip yourself to then properly go into outskirts

Cus Giant Leap isnt really an outskirts mission in the same way New Sector Recon isnt really a coop mission

They both dip you in, then bring you back.

[dry drift]

Idk the names outside the achieves so the numbers are easier for me lol

But I think in this case you still get a decent amount of time between SL3 and 4

[drowsy storm]

I feel like this would be best implemented in the options menu though. There would be a huge amount of people that would find 200SP too much of a grind

[dry drift]

Yeah absolutely, make all this optional is the ideal

Allows us to adjust to preferences

SC rewards from missions could be an easy one

[drowsy storm]

Giant leap - unlocking outskirts, New Sector -unlocking Cooperative. They both just dip your toe into the map then bring you back.

[dry drift]

Ah ok

What was the misison before new sector again

It's evaporated from my mind

[drowsy storm]

The mission before unlocking outskirts is M6 - It's All About the Distortion

[dry drift]

dist fields then

[drowsy storm]

27 SP

[dry drift]

I don't think that's a terrible place for SL4 I'll be real

Up the SP but

still

Like by this point i was using a kitted mosin and an m4 carry

[drowsy storm]

I just think it would take alot of the fun away from SL3 and being a gremlin in cooperative

[dry drift]

comes down to what part of the game you like best, you can always be a gremlin and turn loot down so SL4 is you scrounging for cash

But also I kept my carryhandle for a while

Mosin hasn't changed either, and I found a stashed benelli that I upgraded with parts I got at level 3

[drowsy storm]

SL3 is what made exploring fun because of the chance of finding a stash. It make taking every fight fun because of the reward of finding a weapon.
SL4 you can just buy everything

[dry drift]

I think the only change for me personally was the NVD helmet

[dry drift]

I still do that in SL4 for the chance to get a VAL, SVD or SR 25

Just that the stakes are higher

But the loot tables for those seem quite rare

Okay I'm going to pivot and say this

The M4, AK, SKS, Mosin are all found from sec 2 - 3

So you can find them, sec 4 guns, super early

and use them at sec 3

if the loot tables changed in outskirts so that sec 5 guns spawned a lot more as stashed

so I was picking up maybe a single VAL through sec 3-4

Then when I get to 4 and can use it, I would feel great about that, and sec 4 would have more impact

So potentially, it's the loot tables for stashed weapons that could be changed rather than rejigging the sec levels

But I do also think the last level should take more SP

[drowsy storm]

I think this is where the nuance of our difference in opinion is.

I think SL4 is good where is it because it provides you with silencers for ARs right as the main urban map opens up. Something that is definitely needed. I think SL4 on cooperative is just overkill as the map is much more open and enemy densities are much lower. It's also why being a gremlin is much more fun, your contacts are smaller, it's easier to sneak around or take a fight that doesn't turn into the entire map folding in on you.

My personal playstyle doesn't lead me to using the sniper rifles much. So I don't feel the pain of not having them until SL5. But I can see why there would be pain there. So I agree that all of those rifles should be SL4. Personally I kind think SL5 should should just be unlocking the shop remington and silencers for the SL4 snipers. The mosin silencer I could see being reasonably lowered to SL3 or 4 because of how early we find one and how modular it is.

I also agree the loot tables are a bit fucked. Finding a Kedar in outskirts is fucking depressing. It's acceptable in village and sad in coop. The loot tables really need some work to make sure players are finding appropriate guns in appropriate areas. My first play through I found an AK74U at SL2 in village... it was amazing, but come on... a Kedar or Bizon would have been so much more appropriate as I used that AK74U until SL4 where I just bought an AKM with a silencer straight up.

[dry drift]

Haven't done co-op so also might be different opinions from that

[drowsy storm]

coop - means in the context Ramashka Cooperative (formerly Forest Cooperative)

[dry drift]

Ahh thought you meant co operative gameplay lol

I will respond properly in a bit

[dry drift]

Okay yeah basically agree on all points, the first para I also think SL4 is probably overkill for the enemies in Ramashka, it's sort of my only concern about moving it

I think I just want to use the cool auto snipers and suppressed 9x39 guns earlier, the armour/suppressors for the high tier guns etc I don't need

Like if we got the SR25 gun frame but only the short barrels and normal stocks I'd be happy with that, and push the best scopes up to sec 5 too

Currently you can buy the insane scopes at SL3 I believe

That'd make it a bit more like ITR1, so you unlock all the guns late but not too late, and it's mostly a cost issue

which I prefer

[drowsy storm]

The 9x39 guns are stupid for the SL they are at. They are just outclassed by everything else. It's like putting the Bizon at SL3.

[dry drift]

They have crazy damage, but the mags limit them, integral suppressor is really good though

I'm fine with them being higher, but not that high

[drowsy storm]

TBH they are like the M1911. That needs to be dropped an SL too. Sure it does good damage, but it's a single stack magazine. By the time you can unlock it with a silencer, you could just carry a silenced MP9 that does less damage, but has 30 rounds and fits into the same pistol pocket.

[dry drift]

yeah the m1911 is so hard to aim too

(I suck)

I ended up going back to my M9

But exactly then, they're not that much better, they're just cool to dick around with

[drowsy storm]

That's what I do in the post game. Just buy stuff to try and dick around with.

I'm too much of a min/max player when doing the story

[tranquil gate]

Yeah when a game gives you all the tools and just ends right after it sucks. All that buildup is wasted. Bonelab has the same issue, you get all your tools and 1 level later game is over (the game is a glorified demo for user generated content). When I heard we weren't getting more maps I knew the endgame pacing was probably gonna have issues.

Coop vs Single player progression curves are also probably very different.

[shy temple]

sks requiring sec level 5 to run supressed when akm is level 3 is stupid

i want my sks supressed at lvl 3

because its a worse version of AKM

it doesnt have to be LEVEL 5

sks should be lvl 2 with max upgrades like akm on lvl3

[spring flume]

I really hope that mod support includes support for custom maps partly for this reason

Throw in a few modded maps, adjust some sec level requirements, and the pacing can be extended to the player's preference while also offering new maps to explore

Bonus points if modders can inject new top priority missions to utilize the new maps too

[toxic void]

the dream

[tranquil gate]

We also need missions that don't give sec points. When doing lots of glub shitto quests you can accumulate a bonkers amount of sec points. Thus always having access to top priority quests.

A mission can give more money but no sec points, while others give sec points but less money. Etc etc

[nimble jay]

I like the SL3 period the best. Although the range of weapons increases, there are still many limitations, which makes it challenging but interesting, as you have to figure out how to fight within those constraints.

From SL4 onwards, you can use any equipment you like, so there are almost no limits on weapon choices. Since players are almost fully developed by SL4, SL5 feels like excessive firepower.

I think there should be another large map between the outskirts and the school. I would like a challenging map like Kolkhoz Zarya from the previous game that makes full use of the strengths of SL5.