paleontology

[runic heart]

Why are the ribs so short? The black outline also extends much lower than the tail bones as well.

[tough parcel]

.

[runic heart]

Ah neat

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/NatSciChannel/status/2044439058026508670

EDGE Central (@NatSciChannel)

🚨NEW STUDY DROP🚨

New theropod, named Ptychotherates, from Tri Chinle Ghost Ranch. Known from a piecemeal skull & closely related to Chindesaurus, Tawa, and possibly Daemonosaurus. Found in a Coelophysis block. Similar in size to Coelophysis.

🎨: megan sodano

X · Apr 15, 2026, 3:33 PM

[lavish frigate]

Aww he’s so ugly ❤️

[tiny yoke]

https://youtu.be/7NMW3ueuEJ8?si=iH_88qYL-4UFZ4U4 (it's in french langage)

[spice latch]

Workin on art of a magnapaulia fighting off a labocania, thoughts on what I could do to improve accuracy? It’s still incredibly rough atm I’ll make good progress today

[true juniper]

I saw these fish on a fishing trip one time and i was so flabbergasted like why is there Shining tubes Floating in the damn water and the more i watched the more i saw

[charred hearth]

@coral forge

[spice latch]

-# ig I could’ve pinged him huh, he is the one who recommended magnapaulia

[queen oar]

@thorn grove could also give some input

[charred hearth]

Sir oogma, saurolophines biggest fan vs lambeosaurus glazer, lambeosaurines biggest fan

[coral forge]

the arms definitely need to be bigger, and the back shouldn't have that steep of an incline

[spice latch]

Gotcha

How do we feel about the size comparison?

[queen oar]

Say, uuuuh... You using what skeletal, Dr. Loaf?

[spice latch]

Lemme dig it up rq

[coral forge]

well magnapaulia has quite a wide size range, so you could easily just assume that the magnapaulia is like a bit larger than the holotype, or that the labocania is the larger species
-# (or if you really want it to be a 10 ton magnapaulia, you could make the labocania more robust since magnapaulia lived with a tarbosaurus sized indeterminate tyrannosaurid)

[charred hearth]

why didnt any centrosaurines make it to the end of the cretascous? like, all of the ceratopsians i can think of that made it to the end are chasmosaurines

[spice latch]

Here we are

[true juniper]

Is it true that Magnapaulia is known from 2 specimens
The holotype is a medium sized one and the second one (i think its called a paratype or smth) is the really big one right?

[coral forge]

it's known from about 12 iirc

[queen oar]

@thorn grove @coral forge say, Soft tissue sails are only isolated to Saurolophines, or is there an possibility in Lambeosaurines?

[true juniper]

Woah that’s actually alot i thought it was fragmentary like the rest of mexican dinos lol

[thorn grove]

Prieto Marquez 2012 seems to imply that the difference in size between the specimens present in the quarry may be ontogenetic in which case ~10 tons could be somewhat typical for adults

[thorn grove]

Afaik Lambeosaurines have pretty smooth backs in terms of soft tissue

[coral forge]

use this, its better

[charred hearth]

lambeosaurine son or saurolophine daughter?

[true juniper]

Dryosaurus in musth 💀🥭

[charred hearth]

dont say that, its allosaurus biggest fear

[spice latch]

Gotcha

-# already preferring the shape of the back on it

[coral forge]

nah, adults had a size range of 2.5-10 tons, trust

[tawdry lintel]

I didn't post it trying to give it credibility

[tulip dove]

Heh...

[spice latch]

Would this reference work for lambeosauridae musculature?
-# where tf did the quality go

[coral forge]

too many pixels
but yeah probably, idk of any good lambeosaur musculature diagrams

[tulip dove]

Found a better quality version

[spice latch]

Thank you so much 🥹

[queen oar]

This is mostly up to you, if you want to do it or not, but you can do a soft tissue sail, like those in Edmontosaurus or Brachylophosaurus for a more smooth back.

[spice latch]

Oh yea I wasn’t planning on having the vertebrae poke up like that, maybe some rougher scales on the top but besides that no

[queen oar]

fair enough.

[spice latch]

-# where’s my Freddy fazbear reconstruction

[coral forge]

he's probably procrastinating again
or mabye he's procrastinating procrastinating which cancels out the procrastinating

[mental cloak]

Scientificaly accurate freddy fazbear when

[mental cloak]

• • • = +

[weary ferry]

Just found out quetzals could fly at over 80 MPH… WHAT!?

[wind prairie]

tbh it's not really surprising considering how big they are

[balmy oyster]

Bigger ya are the faster ya fly

[coral forge]

350kg peregrine falcon

[tough parcel]

Tbh the problem is I don't think we're going to get an accurate measure of how fast an extinct animal is going to fly

Probably the boundaries but beyond that, I hesitate to say

[queen oar]

tbh, if it's really heavy how we argued... What? Some Months ago??? Noted, that was Hatzegopteryx, but if they are alleged that " Heavy " and can fly without much design complications, then yeah, reaching high speeds seems to be expected.

[balmy oyster]

7 infused tungsten cubes.

[stiff osprey]

If you know its mass and wing area, you can find out the minimum speed needed to stay airborne

Which for Quetz is like 30-50 mph depending on which weight estimate you use

[mental cloak]

How much is 30-50 mph in kilometers?

[coral forge]

could they not like figure out how strong the arm muscles are and see how much thrust/downforce would be produced when flapping?

[tough parcel]

That's what I mean, you can find the boundaries (bare minimum/maximum) but I doubt you're gonna find a cruising speed or w/e

[stiff osprey]

40-80 kmh

[mental cloak]

Damn
I mean
Its possible
Bein the size of a small plane can make u fly pretty fast

Does anyone know how much fossil material we have of "saurophaganax"?

[cloud dagger]

❌ kmh
✅ km/h

[late bone]

"Amphicoelias fragillimus (now often classified as Maraapunisaurus) is approximately 58–60 meters (190–200 feet) in length and over 120–150 metric tons in weight." THIS IS INSANE?

Someone tell me this is fake how come this Saurpod would be able to reach that much but it isn't even talked about enough

[stiff osprey]

It's a real garbage taxon

[charred hearth]

is there any possible thats atleast one species of dinosaur that partook in live birth?

[stiff osprey]

Known from half a bone, that was described in two pages, the bone disappeared soon after, and we have not heard of it for the last one hundred fifty years

[late bone]

Now it's believed to be 18 meters I think

[tulip dove]

The valid species
A. altus

[late bone]

So that thing could possibly be that huge, fragillimus

It says between 40-60 meters .

"massive fossil bone described in 1878 was lost, these figures are based solely on old notes and are highly speculative"

[tulip dove]

M. fragillimus is estimated at smaller size than what it used to be when it was classified as an Amphicoelias species thanks to being reconstructed after animals like Diplodocus

Now that's it's a rebbachisaurid, it would be smaller than the previous estimates
But since it is still only one bone that's been lost, any and all size estimations have to be taken with extreme amount of salt

[late bone]

Yes that's what I meant to say because that would be too much for a dinosaur I mean 60 meters is too huge, how could it even walk in a forest or such filled environments

[tough parcel]

Perhaps we should just believe Cope made it up to win the Bone Wars and go back to scaling dinosaurs with actual specimens

[balmy oyster]

It got redescribed as “maraapunisaurus fragilimus” and became a rebbachisaur

Still a horrid description for horrid material that does not exist anymore

[late bone]

Mhm thanks guys, I would go crazy to find out I there's a bigger Saurpod than my favorite one, I really love Saurpods and I'm doing some research on some, as this one. It's kinda easily unbelievable

[fossil ingot]

Argent is kinda just the King
Mass Wise
Argent W

[late bone]

Yes I love Argent it's my 2nd favorite, my 1st is supersaurus more because of it's length but more and more because of it's long tail that is estimated to be 18 meters, I love dinos with big tails

[fossil ingot]

I mean
Supersaurus is indeed a Long Guy

[balmy oyster]

Supersaurus also did nothing while mega barosaurus imploded upon itself (all the mega barosaurs were just part of the super holotype)

[coral forge]

whats also insane is how many people still think that its reliable despite it being a single lost vertebra known from a hundred year old drawing by some guy notorious for for being a cr*ppy paleontologist

[mental cloak]

Ah cope
Never stop surprisin me

[coral forge]

"yeah bro Maraapunisaurus is peak"

[stiff osprey]

Supersaurus and Purussaurus becoming the largest members of their clades by doing absolutely nothing

[fossil ingot]

Brachio is another Cool Guy

[late bone]

I didn't really believe it anyway but I needed confirmation alongside my unbelief and some info.

[fossil ingot]

A Caiman been the Largest True Crocodilomorph or Largest Crocodilomorph in General will never stop been funny to me
Like a CAIMAN

[late bone]

I just love the Diplodocidae family they're my favorite Sauropods and I just like the big ones the most

[mental cloak]

I love purusaurus cuz he's cool

[mental cloak]

Oh you mean..Giraffatitan?
Muahahaha evil paleo laught

[fossil ingot]

Massive Caiman that pretty Much Anything it wanted

[craggy trench]

Here scale this dakotaraptor

[tough parcel]

(Un)fortunately, that has physical bones

[mental cloak]

Isnt dakotaraptor a chimera?

[craggy trench]

Exactly
And Genny
Most likely yes but the reason he is still technically valid is because the material is in a private collection and can’t be studied so it can’t officially be considered invalid

He gets off on a technicality
A terrible one
But one regardless

[coral forge]

like the hell creek lambeosaur

[mental cloak]

Ah yes i've heard of that
The guy is like "nono u cant see it,its mine!"

Btw there should've been laws against private fossil collections
Like..wtf? That aint cool
U r literaly stopin science making them not doin important research
Like hell
Nanotyrannus for exemple only got valid cuz of one private collection that showed up to have important nanotyrannus bones
(Btw sorry for the janky ahh english)

[runic rover]

As one of the literal 2 baro fans in the world I'm still salty af

[queen oar]

Tbh, as long as it isn't in the form of or comes with a national society of paleontology, definetly

[mental cloak]

U guys exist?/j

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/CRCpaleos/status/2044418465327362448/photo/1

CRCpaleos (@CRCpaleos)

PALEOARTE
Patagotitan vs. Argentinosaurus (Abigail DX)

X · Apr 15, 2026, 2:12 PM

[stiff osprey]

There is also a very high chance that there is a real giant dromaeosaur in the "Dakotaraptor" material (the caudal, metatarsal, teeth, and claw are very dromaeosaur-like). So the name does not apply but the animal still exists

[opaque kayak]

for dakotaraptor do we know if the raptor material actually came from hell creek?

Depalma lowkey sounds like a guy who’d take a utahraptor claw and say it’s from hell creek

[balmy oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/bornskywalker-dap-me-up-woody-woody-handshake-woody-toy-story-gif-26021440

[mental cloak]

If the guys with bones showed em to us that would be great

[balmy oyster]

Sadly profits come over science, it happens with every field (including recently regarding with the artemis launch)

Only way to circumvent this is to dabble into the bidding and hope to get the specimen back into research or to have it lended over for a period of time to study

[stiff osprey]

We don't know if all of it came from hell creek (depalma being depalma he could have lied about it) but the authors who brought up the turtle thing agreed that it was from hell creek

[tough parcel]

The Ptessaract…

[mental cloak]

The Ptessarct...

https://youtube.com/shorts/T_zZaZhg9zs?si=6R516NFa_pQBOkvZ oh would u look at that i was just talking about this

[charred hearth]

you know that stupid thing when people are like " oh sharks are actually innocent and dolphins are the devil ! " what would ichthyosaurs be? 🤔

[ionic crescent]

if we assume a reptilian behavior similar to iguanas, they hate each other
if we assume a shark like behavior, they ignore each other
if we assume a dolphin like behavior, they hate everyone

[charred hearth]

no i mean, what would they be viewed as?

Like, people put morality onto animals and that unfortunately make people hate dolphins as they view them as the devil itself, while viewing sharks as water puppies, where do you think itchyosaurs would fall on this chart of " why we shouldnt put morality onto animals "

[ionic crescent]

most animals outside of what we consider fish are, most the time, kinda pr*cks with other stuff or their own kind, so, I'd say they would be funny looking youknowwhat

[charred hearth]

do you believe itchyosaurs would be able to survive in the modern ocean?

[native kindle]

the current large ocean animals can barely survive in the ocean with all the over fishing and temperatures rising, so presumably not

[ionic crescent]

Depends, I don't know every single ocean condition for each one if we assume if we straight put em in nowadays seas without knowing where would each one go respectfully. But if we ignore conditions (as in, they are able to endure modern conditions anywhere), they would probably survive

[charred hearth]

if we remove humans from the equation, because everything is struggling to survive due to them.

what would the large itchyosaurs such as himalya, shasta and temnodontosaurus?

[mental cloak]

I mean..dolphins do somw pretty fked up things but hey
Look what humans do
We cant say a thing about dolphins

[charred hearth]

they do bad things in a human morality context. they dont have morality we do

[mental cloak]

Yes..kinda
I mean they can have the niches of whales and dolphins

Also i think ichtyosaurus would do ok in modern day ocean cuz like
He ate squids and stuff

[runic heart]

https://x.com/_themingau/status/1898512019487117533

Mingau 🦃 (@_themingau)

By now, many people must be familiar with the fleshy nostrils of sauropods. But why don't many paleoartists like Caio Fantini do something similar with the Tapuiasaurus, for example?

X · Mar 8, 2025, 11:11 PM

Found this thread pretty interesting.

[outer tusk]

I LOVE THAT TAPUISAURUS

[next valley]

I actually have a question rn

Would it be possible for non-sauropod dinosaurs to breathe with our current atmosphere?

[stiff osprey]

Yes, and sauropods too

[balmy oyster]

The o2 levels & atmosphere weren’t too different compared to today

[stiff osprey]

It would take them some time to acclimate, but nothing more than what a person does when they move from sea level to a slightly higher altitude

[queen oar]

Legit don't like how he tries to prioritize this nostril position...

[velvet burrow]

Doesn't Tapuiasaurus have a weird thing going on with its nostrils where they're actually fully elevated?

[charred hearth]

would gigantoraptor have been the apex of its formation?

can a omnivore be a apex predator?

https://x.com/AllosaurusJP/status/2044470958845567245 it really got reincarnated

🌸Alice Goodman🌸 is Plurbin (@AllosaurusJP)

What

X · Apr 15, 2026, 5:40 PM

[velvet burrow]

I mean

That's what bears would be
-# Wait are bears considered apex predators?

[little mauve]

Tertiary consumer is a better term than apex predator and yes bears would qualify despite being omnivores. Humans are tertiary consumers and we are omnivores

[queen oar]

nope. See, this is only an impression, mostly by people who don't know Sauropod facial anatomy, and to some extent, Dinosaur facial anatomy, and to some greater extent, Archosaur facial anatomy, and to a EVEN GREATER extent, Reptilian facial Anatomy

See, in Reptiles and in Sauropods, they usually have a foramina between where the Premaxilla and Maxilla attach together, and that foramina in Lizards have been associated with the placement of nostrils, this same foramina is also found in the naris, in the exact position ( between the Premaxilla and Maxilla ) of Sauropodamorphs too. In Tapuiasaurus it's found in a similar position, indicating that the nostrils, just like most dinosaurs ( as it has already been shown 25 years ago, in Witmer et al. 2001 ), is positioned on the front, at the snout, not in a elevated position

[balmy oyster]

no, there were tyrannosauroids present.

[queen oar]

@velvet burrow btw, sorry if I came as a bit rude, this is just a topic that upsets me a little bit, so I apologize for anything

[velvet burrow]

Ooo

[charred hearth]

Herbivores can never be considered tertiary consumers right?

[charred hearth]

we should all share some of our favorite paleo artworks, i'll go first
https://x.com/PliosaurDork/status/2044399471438795031/photo/1

PliosaurDork (@PliosaurDork)

과거시험 보러 가다가 진짜 과거로 가버린 선비.

X · Apr 15, 2026, 12:56 PM

[granite thicket]

Smth about that new recon looks off
Where's the gastrailia?

[balmy oyster]

Not included

[mental cloak]

Do they had one?

[little mauve]

Correct

[runic heart]

Tbh I kinda like the new mosasaurus

[tough parcel]

Mosasaurs do not have gastralia

They have sternal ribs which are cartilage, something Sharpe felt they didn't need to draw

[light osprey]

Infact no squamate has gastralia

[runic heart]

Cause they bendy

[granite thicket]

Ah

[late bone]

Was supersaurus as today studies 40+ meters? " Longest dinosaur" ? I wanna know because of diplodocus hallorum. Which is a pretty big size as well

"Current scientific estimates (based on modern studies)
Length
~33–35 meters (108–115 ft) is the most widely accepted range today
Some earlier or more speculative estimates go up to ~40 m, but those are not broadly supported now.
We don’t know:
Exact tail length
Full body proportions"
"Some earlier or more speculative estimates go up to ~40 m, but those are not broadly supported now" As for supersaurus.

[late bone]

"~30–33 meters (98–108 ft) is the commonly accepted modern range
Earlier claims of 40–50 meters (when it was called Seismosaurus) are now considered overestimates"
"Diplodocus hallorum
→ ~30–33 m, well-supported large specimen
Supersaurus
→ Possibly longer (~33–35 m), but less certain"
So genuinely myself I don't understand

[late bone]

It's mentioned above your message "Some earlier or more speculative estimates go up to ~40 m, but those are not broadly supported now"

So genuinely what can I believe

[undone rapids]

Yeah the tail in this one is from some of the other specimens. I doubt they're as big as this guy but I assume it was their best option.

[late bone]

Genuinely why did we even discover this guy that takes the place of my favorite dinosaur -._-. they're almost identical, same bodies and stuff

[paper parcel]

I love elephants or elephantids

[late bone]

"The biggest Barosaurus specimen is represented by the massive,, 1.37-meter-long vertebra known as BYU 9024 (nicknamed "Big Bar"), which suggests an animal potentially 45–48 meters (148–157 feet) long and weighing over 60 tons. While some studies attribute this specimen to Supersaurus, if it is a Barosaurus, it makes the genus one of the longest dinosaurs"

[ Contains pictures from 2020-2021. ]

The vertebra (BYU 9024) matches extreme elongation patterns seen in Supersaurus-type cervical vertebrae
It comes from the Dry Mesa Quarry (Colorado), which is strongly associated with Supersaurus material
Its proportions are more extreme than known Barosaurus cervicals
Why it is not confidently Barosaurus;
Barosaurus cervical vertebrae are
long.
But not as extremely proportioned as BYU 9024
No strong anatomical match between BYU 9024 and confirmed Barosaurus neck series

So this isn't actually a barosaurus with the studies of today, but more likely a supersaurus that is enormous

[paper parcel]

Weakest sauropod vs strongest theropod

[late bone]

Hmm not quite though. It says here that it's estimated to be 60–73 metric tons and Argentinosaurus is even up to 80

[fossil ingot]

Argent is 90-100t

[coral forge]

Supersaurus wasnt that big and Argentinosaurus wasnt that small

[late bone]

Yes I was about to correct myself sorry

[fossil ingot]

And idk if Supersaurus was actually 60-73t, even the Recapture Creek Femur using Brachio is like 67t

[late bone]

Did you possibly read everything above before talking, specifically about supersaurus

[coral forge]

supersaurus is 55t

[late bone]

Not the supersaurus we have now, the "barosaurus" BYU 9024 holotype which isn't actually a barosaurus but scientist believe it's more like supersaurus

[fossil ingot]

"Super Baro" is just Supersaurus tbf
And Yeah Supersaurus wasn't THAT big

[late bone]

It's a very big vertebrae, the biggest of any sauropod. What are u talking about

[paper parcel]

I just find it funny how comedically big sauropods were

[fossil ingot]

The Supersaurus here
Includes the BYU Specimens

[coral forge]

the biggest vertebra is that one apatosaur vert isnt it

[late bone]

And it isn't confirmed it's that long or heavy but it's a estimate. I didn't say confirmed

[fossil ingot]

Yeah but no current estimate is above 60t atm
Unless you prob add alot of soft tissue

[late bone]

Supersaurus BYU 9024
Specimen: BYU 9024 (cervical vertebra)
Length: ~1.3–1.4 meters (130–140 cm) depending on measurement and restoration
Significance: One of the longest cervical vertebrae ever discovered in any dinosaur
This is widely regarded as the largest individual sauropod vertebra known from a named dinosaur in terms of sheer length.""""

[late bone]

Man I even written there that it's estimated as 45-48 meters not 60

[fossil ingot]

BYU 9024 is the Cv14 here
And Very likely scaled to the largest BYU Specimen
Which yeah
Not even 40m along the centra

[coral forge]

the minimum weight you gave is still several tons larger than the largest reliable Supersaurus estimates

[fossil ingot]

I said 60t not 60m
Read

[late bone]

Ah that yes I agree

[fossil ingot]

You have BYU 9024 scaled here
Its Here

Alot of Big Baro is kinda just
Supersaurus

[late bone]

I love supersaurus

[fossil ingot]

And I am very sure that the Vert in BYU 9024 is now considered part of the Supersaurus Holotype
In short words
Supersaurus Ate Big Baro

[late bone]

What if supersaurus will be eaten by something else bigger

[fossil ingot]

Who knows, Sauropods are Massive
The Recapture Creek Femur scaled by Brachio is Massive aswell
Still like 20-30t far from Argent but thats Argent Moment

[late bone]

Omg the baby

[coral forge]

"Supersaurus vivianae" (=Maraapunisaurus fragilimus?) when?

[paper parcel]

The meganotosaurus maximus

[queen oar]

Brachiosaurus

[paper parcel]

Ngl i wonder if there was bigger giganotosaurus specimens we haven't found

[coral forge]

We have 2 specimens, I guarantee we have not found the largest individual to ever have lived

[queen oar]

What if you dipped Supersaurus in BBQ sauce?

[tough parcel]

You can say this for literally every fossil animal ever

[steep atlas]

Yeah but Giganotosaurus is cooler than most of them

[tough parcel]

Oh true my bad

[runic heart]

We have full platecarpus skeletons, yes? So it’s safe to say we know what its proportions would have been?

[queen oar]

@steep atlas would you eat a Supersaurus leg?

[steep atlas]

Sure, if it was cooked and seasoned well

@queen oar would you?

[queen oar]

Yah.

[steep atlas]

How would you season it

[queen oar]

Giant campfire, and prepare it like a chicken or bird, really, butter under the skin, put some garlic, really it's so large, that you might as well just put some potatoes inside the flesh

[steep atlas]

You're making me hungry

[tough parcel]

The problem here is it's a sauropod

Elephants are already notorious for being bad to eat due to how tough the meat is, I can only imagine how hard a sauropod would be

[paper parcel]

Giant hunters are cool, sabertooths included

[ionic crescent]

Food is food

[queen oar]

Not necessarily. There's other factors that might influence on how good or bad the specific animal's meat is, and not necessarily just adaptations for the environment

[tough parcel]

Large animals needs dense muscle to hold its weight
Elephants are already tough due to the muscle fibers
Upscale to a 50 ton sauropod

There's probably a limit on how that scales but I can imagine it wouldn't be fun for a human

[paper parcel]

The humble brachytrachelopan and amargasaurus

[tough parcel]

I mean the question is "Supersaurus leg" and I assume we're not butchering juveniles

[paper parcel]

Tbh hadrosaurs or ceratopsians might be the best food sources in terms of dinos

[queen oar]

See, I thought a similar thing, in Mammoths it's worst because they had adaptations to withstand the cold, thicker skin, larger fat layers and probably more body mass that would make the tissues a lot more harder to cut up. But then you have Steller' Sea Cows who have been reported to be delicious. So it's not just adaptations

[paper parcel]

One barsboldia or parasaurolophus leg could feed a family

[tough parcel]

The problem is one is a terrestrial herbivore, the other is an aquatic herbivore

Probably less need to support your weight in water especially when you're so fat, you physically cannot be drowned by orcas

[queen oar]

Yup. But see, I still would eat it anyways.

[paper parcel]

Deep fried hadrosaur leg

[queen oar]

Absolutely

[paper parcel]

Imagine a chicken leg the size of a turkey or larger 🍗

[open compass]

https://youtu.be/yIOphkCWzD8?si=VrHuQCCfKNG0mX-i

[balmy oyster]

Its so peak youtube can’t even load the video

[runic heart]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ymbdfzdto8&pp=ugUEEgJlbg%3D%3D

oh wow i did not expect this

[ashen wedge]

Hm…… beautiful, but what would it taste like?

[tawdry lintel]

Between these 2 which is the most accurate ?

[outer tusk]

both

[tawdry lintel]

No details that gets it better than the other ?

[queen oar]

the first one

[outer tusk]

it's moreso subjective

[tawdry lintel]

In case u wanna know, 1 (PNSO) and 2 (Eofauna), thanks btw

[queen oar]

the other one is a little better on the extra oral tissues, by making them tight, as in the way we expect it. But PNSO does make a better visual work in general.

[tawdry lintel]

Thats quite interesting, I personally would go with PNSO

[outer tusk]

I will say I do perfer the Eofauna one color wise

[tawdry lintel]

Thanks

[queen oar]

I mean, you can paint the PNSO in the Eofauna's color scheme, no?

[tawdry lintel]

Yeah in color its definetely Eofauna for me too but thats the only thing I preffer from it

Just found this one which I think it looks amazing too

[queen oar]

@outer tusk if I can ask, why don't you show your paleoart here?

[arctic crane]

What a damn shame this guy didn't fossilize well. I'd have liked to know more about it

[green helm]

Fesh

[light osprey]

What does this even mean

[slow trench]

Pachyrhinosaurus fossil reconstruction in my local university :D

[stoic gyro]

Hey! Love your vids

[queen oar]

so, in Thecodonts, it's more usual for animals to have extra oral tissues more tight around the jaws, it's why a lot of Paleoart reconstruction of " Lips " tend to emphasize models more based or inspired in Mammalian lips, rather than Lepidosaur extra oral tissues ( Who are a lot more extensive )

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/Mathflock/status/2044752439811731470 is this a true human fact?

Mathflock. (@Mathflock)

@xXxqqa A human is a 130-250 lb ape with the structural density of a rock and the ability to generate as much striking force as a small-calibre firearm. These creatures meanwhile have scary nails. That's it.

An unarmed human is beating a LOT more animals than we think

X · Apr 16, 2026, 12:19 PM

[crisp matrix]

I would love to see the sources on that (structural density of a rock?!?) I’ll also point out that they pull up stats on a human but not on the bird. I’m sure the bird can generate scary force too, and it has other things to its advantage such as better mobility and armor (try grabbing something full of feathers—it’s a lot harder than you think). Also, consider circumstance—they’re not specifying what circumstances constitute a human generating that much force (again, why I’d want to see the source). For all we know, it could be an extremely niche circumstance if it’s even true.

But either way, I would not want to face an angry eagle or dromaeosaur. There’s a lot more going into your chances of survival than just what your “stats” are.

[slow trench]

Human (and ape) skin is far easier to shred to ribbons compared to other mammals due to it lacking the amount of elasticity most mammal skin has, on top of that we have no protective fur (yes, fur grants a decent amount of protection from slashing and piercing). The grip force of an eagle with those talons? It does more damage to a human then to something else of comparable weight, like a beaver or red wolf.

Humans love to hype ourselves up, but people tend to forvet that humans developed weapons and tools for a reason: so we were harder prey for our predators to go up against. Strip away a human's weapons and tools and we're easy prey.

Humans revered some predators as deities or holy creatures because we feared them and their power.

[mental cloak]

Humans are one of the most fragile animals there
U can even get fkd up by a roster if u irritate it enough

So if u wanna fight a velociraptor,u probabily gonna be covered in blood at the end while the turkey sized animal eat u alive

[slow trench]

Fr,

I mean that's a bit of an exaggeration, I think getting screwed up by a rooster would morso happen because those claws are unsanitary af. We'd fold under the infection without medicine

[tough parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/invincible-mark-mark-grayson-spaghetti-conquest-gif-8509359667451820648

[mental cloak]

Yeah
My grandma one this got stabed in the foot by a roster with those tallons they have one time
And lemme tell ya..it wasnt pretty

[mental cloak]

And yeah like u said
I think humans ans apes have more soft skin so no womder is easier to cut it and stuff

[slow trench]

Velociraptors were basically built to take down prey our size so yeah, if you don't have a gun or can't aim straight you're kinda screwed ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Also yeah they can definitely hurt. We could kill a rooster with one goid kick but our skin would still get shredded by them. Dogs aren't worried because their skin is thick, loose, and covered in fur, but we got nothing except whatever clothes we happen to be wearing, and they don't cover all if us.

It's not that our skin is soft, but it's shallow and has very little give that would disperse the pinpoint damage of a claw or fang.

Meanwhile try to scratch something like a dog? The skin moves with the thing trying to inflict damage, which makes the attack less potent and keeps it from immidiatly hitting anything vital. Like trying to cut thick, loose cloth with a steak knife. Meanwhile humans, apes, and monkey skin would have more tension and thus be easier to cut.

[runic heart]

Hmm

[slow trench]

-# (I've heard some scientists or even doctors try and use chat gpt for official study papers, it's genuinely crazy out there rn, misinformation is running rampant snd AI is shooting us in the foot with bad responses that people don't bother fact checking)

[mental cloak]

Ugh
Damn you,Chatgpt!

[slow trench]

Yeah

[queen oar]

What if took ChatGPT's hardware and made a soup with it?

[mental cloak]

I may be dumb
But at least i didnt use chat gpt to graduate in school
But to be fair i only used chat gpt to mess with him
Lime asking dumb questions like "can i eat cement?"

[mental cloak]

Hmmmmm..soupgpt

[queen oar]

It's crunchy too, because of the Hardware bits

[mental cloak]

This soup if very watery tho

[queen oar]

Just add Gemini and Sora for extra flavour

[mental cloak]

Oh nice

[lavish frigate]

To my knowledge the typical prey of velociraptor wasnt our size? As far as I know the biggest thing we have proof of them hunting is protoceratops which is like a sheep

[slow trench]

Humans are very close to sheep size and very similar in weight, we're just taller.

[mental cloak]

I mean
It was pretty big compared to velociraptor

[slow trench]

Sheep can reach to around 160 kg

Humans tend to top out at around 70kg

So we're definitly in the same weight class as the prey they were speculated to eat

and even if we compare it to Protoceratops weight, we're still well within the same weight range, and we'd be a far easier prey to kill [without guns]

[mental cloak]

Guns,yes
Bare hands,no

[queen oar]

Would you eat a Chocolate-made Dromaeosaur statue?

[mental cloak]

Imagine having one as a pet

[slow trench]

Yeah no without guns velociraptor would ko us easily. Cougars are around the same size as velociraptors and they definitely predate on humans so even if an animal is smaller then us, so long as they have the equipment to, they can take us out.

[mental cloak]

Yes

[queen oar]

it would be pretty simple, to be frank. The biggest issue is going to be Utahraptor, Achillobator and all of those robust guys, because they are more likely to display aggressive/territorial behaviour, and yeah, no.

[slow trench]

Would be like having a [Canadian] lynx or cougar as a pet, unless they actually were social animals, then we might have an easier time taming them

[mental cloak]

Hmmmmm makes sense

[queen oar]

See, Deinonychus is pretty simple, because you have a lot more compatibility of items that you can use for it's enrichment. A Utahraptor? That's like " Hmmmm... What kinda Toy do I buy for my Pet Tiger? "

[mental cloak]

I mean
Humans can tame almost every animal out there
So i think a smallish dromeosaur would be pretty easy
Like a deinonychus or a velociraptor even

[slow trench]

I mean we can manage with raptors [the bird ones], but the risk of being mauled to death is definitly there because they're bigger then bird raptors

[queen oar]

not necessarily. Velociraptor? Dromaeosaurus? Yeah, definetly. But, that is going to be a mistake done by yourself, such as not organizing their diet and nutritional values decently

[slow trench]

Well, yeah I was talking about Dromaeosaurus and velociraptor, and all maulings tend to be because humans fked up with the animal in their charge. If they have instincts like big cats [prey drive being triggered when the your back is turned to them] then you'd 100% need to be careful taming one.

But I highly doubt we'd be able to domesticate them, much like how we cant really domesticate predatory birds

[mental cloak]

How about
Ornithomimosaurs?
Like galimimus
Struchiomimus etc etc

[slow trench]

Well, humans do have ostritch farms, and while those guys are bigger then ostriches they aren't predatory. You'd still have to be careful though, their kicks could def disembowel a human, like how cassowaries and emus can.

[queen oar]

Pretty much. You would need to meet the animal's necessity in your home, and outside, how would you do it outside? Some Indoor Cat owners, have made this very cute idea, of making these outside sections, usually using bird cage material, I think? To have the animal explore a more extensive range and be exposed to outer elements, but not in a way where it can invade the local ecosystem and you know?

[mental cloak]

Elaborate pls im dumb
I have 1 and a half braincell

[queen oar]

Hold on

[slow trench]

Yeah, yeah, the cages people use with cats are obv too flimsy, but it would have to be a fully enclosed outdoor section, kinda like uuhh, like Aviaries. With thicker wire.

[queen oar]

yup

[slow trench]

this but full of small raptors would be quite a sight

Though if they're not social then they'd probably maul eachother, so best stick to one XD

[queen oar]

So, not the same photo, but it's kinda like these one

[mental cloak]

Ohhhh right
I mean its a cool idea tho

[mental cloak]

Imagine some Microraptors there
Or even some Yi-Qi's

[queen oar]

Because like, if we are operating under the assumption that, Dromaeosaurs are mainly going to function like Pantherines and to some extent, large felids, it's pretty much a requeriment ( In Zoos at least ), that their enclosure can simulate the extent of their wild environments, and also stimulate them to continue exploring their enclosure

[slow trench]

I didn't know Yi-Qi existed, thank you for gifting me with the realization that such awesome critters existed
-# their wings are like if bird wings and bat wings got merged that's so cool

Also, hell yeah, would be awesome

[tough parcel]

It's Yi qi, not Yi-Qi as an fyi, the name is stupid short

[mental cloak]

Whats the diference?

[queen oar]

https://youtu.be/_bU9Sdnyahg?t=879

[mental cloak]

They saw birds wings and said "nah imma do my own thing' and grew long fingies

[slow trench]

new fav dino discovered, Linhenykus is demoted to second fav

[mental cloak]

I personaly realy like Yi qi
Its a cool criter its like a lil dragon thing
And its quite small so u can definaly have it as a pet

[slow trench]

frfr

[queen oar]

It's kinda meh, for me.

Like, not even offending. It's cool, but it kinda of just doesn't have a lot of derived features that I like from other Mesozoic Avian Dinosaurs

[mental cloak]

Meh fair

[queen oar]

it's like, trying to be so many different things

[mental cloak]

Ia Sinopteryx a thing?
I jeard this name but idk with its a reall animal

[tender dove]

You'll grow to love the Yanliao biota as much as I do

[mental cloak]

How that one looks like

[tender dove]

It looks awesome!

[queen oar]

Mesozoic Arboreal Ecosystem

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/AcervoCharts/status/2044752667453620237 will we ever know what prehestoric insects faces up close would look like? ( thats a ant btw )

ACERVO (@AcervoCharts)

Foto revela como é o rosto de uma formiga visto no microscópio.

X · Apr 16, 2026, 12:20 PM

[tough parcel]

P sure we have several amber insects that we've done this with

[mental cloak]

Sir,that's a demon

[granite thicket]

Humans statwise arent that weak
Its just that modern humans have no aggression

[charred hearth]

???

[slow trench]

My guy, go wander in the forest with no tools and see how quickly you get clapped. All we have is our intelligence,and intelligence doesn't do anything when there's a cougar stalking you without your knowledge.

No claws, no fangs, no impressive sense of smell or hearing, no fur to protect you from the elements. People who think human base stats hold even a candle light to predatory and even a good chunk of herbivorous animals are blatantly bias.

The only thing we have that can give us an advantage without tools is stamina, and that stamina is only useful for jogging and walking, two ways of locomotion that ate far slower then the sprinting or even trotting speed of many animals. Even our swimming skills are weak because, unlike animals, we don't have instinctively good swimming skills. We can climb, but many things climb better.

We're outclassed by beavers and weasels in terms of natural skill, because they can swim better and run bettwr respectively and still have an actually decently dangerous bite for their size.

[winter marsh]

We also have Ambopteryx which is the same thing but like half the size

[queen oar]

Actually Humans do have a mechanism to warn us about the presence of a stalking predator, also known as " Gut feeling "

[slow trench]

Given maulings and ambushes still happen fairly often if a human is wandering about in the wilderness I wouldn't say it's foolproof enough to completely cover our lacking in other senses

Most animals have both that and the ability to smell predators if the wind direction is right, and have decent hearing that can notice when a leaf crinkles wrong.

I imagain even our ancestors had better senses then current modren humans

[queen oar]

Pretty much, but it's better than having no senses.

[slow trench]

Yeah, there are still some animals with even worse senses then us, but uh, they tend to be bottom of the foodchain decomposers anyways

[steep atlas]

Our sense of vision is extremely good among all animals

[queen oar]

Would be good if we had someone knowledgeable in human prehistory

[slow trench]

it's up there with eagles, yeah, but stealth predators still manage to stay real damn hidden from our eyes. Birds have a combo of good vision, bird's eye view, ultraviolet vision [if I recall correctly] and really good hearing, which allows them to use their vision more effectively for finding predators or prey. Also [again if I'm recalling correctly] they can see further then us.

[steep atlas]

Most people nowadays don't pay attention to their surroundings. Also afaik we have the second best visual acuity at distance behind birds of prey

[slow trench]

Ah, right so I was remembering correctly.

But yeah modern day humans are constantly bombarded by noise, so I honestly think our brain has started dismissing noises for 'background noise' a lot more then our ancestors used to.

I think people who live more rurally would be far better at using their senses then city folk tho, that's for sure

[cloud dagger]

can we go back to paleontology

[steep atlas]

No

[queen oar]

No, what if I dipped a Deinonychus in a bucket of Nutella?

[slow trench]

Tiskis, this discussion was based off someone linking a twitter thread that says humans could take on things like velociraptor no problem

[I think]

Ngl I am really curious if ancient humans/ancestors had better senses then modern ones

[queen oar]

Most likely not, I mean personally I'm guessing our tolerance over each other and eventual habit of living with each other, would cause some form of artificial selection. But that's just my idea rn

[mental cloak]

Ngl this chat should be called "biology"
Cuz biology is a huge umbrella that covers almost everything
Like paleontology
Marine-biology
Etc etc

[little mauve]

They did, mainly olfaction but thats also what's mainly been studied. Olfactory receptor genes mutate and degrade in contemporary agricultural populations versus hunter-gatherers, with the latter preserving the ancestral condition.

[slow trench]

that's so fascinating

[little mauve]

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(26)00259-7

This is another interesting paper comparing the olfactory sensitivities of H. sapiens with Neanderthal and Denisovan https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36691623/

[stiff osprey]

That's pretty sick i didn't know that

[little mauve]

It's really interesting. Hunter gatherers tend to have a unique vocabulary for smells whereas agricultural and/or industrial humans tend to describe smells only in relation to one another: "it smells like a rose" etc

[warped peak]

Just saying, tools are quite literally a core part of human evolution

It is a massive part of the last 3.5 million years of our development. The entire human body is reliant on our ability to do utilize them, from our upright posture to our explosively powerful shoulders, to our reduced jaws to our legs and inlined feet, and how we old our heads

This is about comparable to looking at leafcutter ants and asking how they would perform without any fungus to grow

[little mauve]

Very true, humans have culture in addition to genetics and culture includes tool use. If you dump a person in the jungle with nothing, they're pretty quickly going to pick up a stick and use it for things

[slow trench]

Ik, humans dominate with tools that's for certain, but we were talking more about the actual 'stats' of humans, tools are an entirely separate thing from whether humans can bite or punch good, or how well they can take a hit from a predator or herbivore

[little mauve]

In that sense too, archaic humans would have had cultural habits with respect to sensing their environment that would have been more acute and different from ours

[little mauve]

This is why talking "stats" wrt an organism quickly becomes silly. The human brain is a biological asset, is it not? And that's what enables culture and tool use. So why wouldn't we include that? I can see your argument but like I said I thinking framing things as stats like a video game is misleading

[slow trench]

Idk I really enjoy TeirZoo's videos, they're still very educational

Tools to me are basically in a catagory similar to 'equipment' in a game. Put metal armor on a bear and suddenly it's going to get a lot stronger, same with humans. It's my personal viewpoint but at one point humans didn't use all these advance tools and they still moved to middle-high in the food chain, natural weapons on predators still outperformed artificial ones when it came down to the bare bones.

[balmy oyster]

I mean are they…? I heard they had quite some issues, especially with paleontological topics.

[little mauve]

Well how educational something is is going to be relational to your prior knowledge and I don't think his audience generally has a lot of that, no offense. From what I've seen it's a pretty mixed bag and fundamentally junk food from an intellectual perspective, which can be a fine snack but shouldn't be your whole diet

[woeful falcon]

Good thing life ain't a video game

And human can grab a big rock

[little mauve]

Tool use predates H. sapiens, we literally have always used them

[slow trench]

It got me interested enough to do my own research into topics, so I'm not one to completely discredit it as 'junk' making something digestible to a wider audience isn't at it's core pointless.

[tough parcel]

TierZoo has so many flaws that I honestly couldn't recite them off the top of my head beyond perpetuating stereotypes such as cheetahs being bad animals and will go extinct anyways

[slow trench]

No, we did not. We have not always used tools, we evolved to use those tools with time and by passing down traditions, just like how were seeing some animals just start to learn how to use tools in the modern era. Tool use isn't ingrained in genetics.

[little mauve]

Thats good! Unfortunately you're probably in the minority as far as that goes, I didnt mean to discredit it by calling it junk food. I used that analogy to say we all enjoy junk food from time to time, precisely and literally because it's easily digestible, but we shouldn't rely on it or limit ourselves to it

[little mauve]

Look at tool use in the hominid lineage, it predates H. sapiens i assure you. It literally occurs in chimpanzees.

[slow trench]

Oh yeah, I'm not limiting myself to it, but I still find breaking things down into simple terms like stats to be a fun exercise for the brain, even if it isn't fully accurate

[woeful falcon]

Are animals only just starting to use tools or are we only just noticing it and recognizing it

I would argue the latter personally

[slow trench]

And, well, it was relevant to how the discussions started so I kept using those terms

[little mauve]

The Lomekwian toolkit and cut marks are 3.4 mya and probably made by Australopithecus

[slow trench]

I don't recall entirely but yes, some animals are just starting to show signs of tool use. Some apes over in Japan have recently, for the first time, been witnessed passing down tool use to their young. Given they had to teach them how to use that tools I'm fully confident in the fact that no, it isn't ingrained in genes, it had to start somewhere and be passed down.

That's why social species seem to be the main ones that can use tools.

[woeful falcon]

First time been witnessed

Keyword there

[slow trench]

Yes but they're still passing down the knowledge to their young. It's being 'taught'. With time an individual may learn to use tools, but that's because they have the traits needed to use tools easily. Aka, thumbs.

Just because they may have been using tools for a long time doesn't mean that they genetically were gifted the ability to use tools.

[little mauve]

All mammals teach their young- that doesn’t mean there isn't a genetic and physiological infrastructure there, tool use broadly occurs sporadically in primates because of their large brains and dextrous hands. Both physical adaptations. And yeah within populations adults will transfer this behavior to offspring because they're social mammals. Hominids starting with Australopithecus took it to another level

[slow trench]

Genuinly I think any animal with at least moderate intelligence can use tools if taught. So not it's not a genetic skill, it's a learned skill, two very different things. You can teach a dog to use a button [a tool] to communicate it's needs to a human.

[woeful falcon]

Well, that intelligence is in part a product of evolution

[little mauve]

Dogs are very intelligent as far as mammals go, highly social, and we've bred them specifically to follow commands and their brains reflect these changes.

[woeful falcon]

Lets not forget animals not traditionally thought as intelligent by the layman in the same way as mammals too but are very highly intelligent. Today's own dinosaurs, the birds

[little mauve]

A dog is not knapping flint in a million years though, human ancestors were

[slow trench]

Well yeah of course, I wasn't saying our ancient ancestors were stupid, they evolved their intelligence over time due to that being the most convenient and quickest way to survive. Easier then growing claws and teeth. Evolution is weird like that.

But with that intelligence came gradually learning how to use tools. Thus it's a learned skill, not a genetic skill. if you put a human baby in a box and only give them some pebbles, they won't immediately start using those pebbles to start smashing open seeds or nuts, it'll come with trial and error, AKA learning.

mb for the stroke inducing sentence there

[little mauve]

If you're still operating under the idea that our species ever existed without tools we need to clear that up before continuing

[woeful falcon]

I just don't really understand the need to make the distinction, especially when tool useage has developed multiple times independently through very different animal lineages, one being a reptile lol

Tool usage is an evolutionary adaption just as is a bird's capability to build a nest, or use a stick to get food out of a hard to reach spot. Some of the mechanisms might differ but it is part of them all the same

[little mauve]

Yes, Darwin actually put it in similar terms. I think the birds nest specifically

[slow trench]

They were still taught tool use by a more intelligent species. But that's not genetic. And if they have offspring and, say, they're taught how to open doors [like how you can teach cats to open doors] they will then teach their offspring how to open doors simply because their offspring will observe it and mimic it
-# [though maybe cats would be a better example because our cat taught our other cat how to open doors just because they watched them opening a door]

Thus that specific tool use started somewhere. But I don't expect dogs to pick up and start using sticks to scare things out of burrows, because they can just dig at the burrows to scare things out and to them that's good enough.

So hence, it's not an instinct. it's a coincidence passed down by a social species that becomes an learned ability.

[woeful falcon]

And I can't really speak with certainty I have to admit, but I can't imagine crows have schools to teach each other nifty ways to use sticks

I'm being hyperbolic ofc

[slow trench]

No they just teach their offspring how to do it through observation. Like how our parents teach us that it's dumb to touch the burner, or how our parents show us, through observation, how to colour or draw.

[woeful falcon]

Do crows stick around with their parents like that

[slow trench]

Yes actually

It's super cool, for a long time a crow's offspring stick around in their parent's territory and help them build the nest for their future siblings, or help them find food for the chicks.

Mind you, interestingly enough, it's more common in urban populations.

[woeful falcon]

Okay but, at some point there was a first crow or "crow" that figured stuff out

They didn't have a teacher

[slow trench]

No I wasn't talking about our current modern species, I was talking about like, our prehistoric ancestors, before they outperformed and killed off other similar species. Honestly I should look into those ancestors so I can learn more about them because it's an interesting topic

[little mauve]

All the species of our genus used tools throughout their entire existences, as did some late members of the lineages immediately preceding those. That also isnt including tool use in primates more broadly.

And our physical evolution reflects that, down to changes in our finger bones

[woeful falcon]

Cooking

[slow trench]

yeah I was talking about the members before those late members preceding those. The ones that were still very similar to apes. They likely used wood tools before stone but it would be something learned through trial and error, so theoretically it was likely there was a point that the earlier ancestors of those ape ancestors didn't use tools. Which was what I was reffering to. At some point in distant history, ape-like animals had to learn to use basic tools like poking sticks into holes, and I imagine it probably started because they evolved to efficiently climb [aka why they had thumbs, much like how some modern species have thumb-like adaptations for grasping and holding]

Though I'll admit I definitely messed up conveying that idea, so I probably used some improper terminology so mb there. Was using 'species' way too broadly

[runic heart]

https://x.com/EmuLarge/status/2044946950747828532

Well this answers my question about platecarpus.

Richard_Carr (@EmuLarge)

Nobody is getting this right so let me, a mosasaur worker set it straight:

In 2011 a description of a remarkably well preserved Platecarpus tympaniticus (LACM 128329) [pictured below] was published.

X · Apr 17, 2026, 1:12 AM

[woeful falcon]

I wouldn't discount any other animal's usage of tools as an adaption for their own survival, life and how they exist. I extend that to humans too, even with the complexity of said tool usage evolving over time

Which, you guessed it, evolved alongside us

[slow trench]

Yeah, it's interesting to think about how adaptations for grasping branches and food probably led to those early species having the idea to use tools

[little mauve]

You've created a chicken/egg problem with infinite regressions which is why we keep circling. If something is known it must be taught, but who taught the teacher? See what I'm saying. The answer is that these things do occur spontaneously. Some chimpanzees fish for ants and some don't, sometimes whole communities do or don't. Sometimes though and this has been observed they will spontaneously figure it out with no instruction, then they'll teach others

[slow trench]

Trial and error is a common teacher for those who do not have a teacher. An Idea might be had and they try it out, and fail he first time, the second time the third time, but then the fourth time works, and they try to replicate that success.
-# [because yes even primitive animals can have ideas, I think humans underestimate the intelligence of animals just because they don't think he same way we do]

Most of my ability to draw came from me teaching myself through trial and error, not because I had a teacher. So I assume that can easily apply to more simply things like 'stick go in hole and bug come out'. Learned skills don't always get taught by an individual, but by experiences a creature can have.

[woeful falcon]

I feel that uh, if you consider tool usage to have become a driving factor in human evolution after it emerged then that should be cased closed.

[little mauve]

All learning is trial and error whether you have a teacher or not, thats not what I'm talking about. The instinct to try, to explore novel behaviors is spontaneous and physiological and different across different groups of organisms

[slow trench]

Oh yeah definitely, humans kept teaching and learning new things using knowledge taught. and it kept accelerating and accelerating and shaping us. Like i said I was using 'species' way too broadly. But It emerged at some point, long long ago.

[little mauve]

That teaching isn't some abstract thing separate from our biology either though, it's precisely our biology and ecology as animals that multiply those factors ad infinitum

[woeful falcon]

But why would you disqualify tool usage here then

Even if tools are external, tool usage is part of what shaped things and brought about by evolution from the get-go

[slow trench]

I would say that you mean curiosity, something that exists alongside intelligence, is genetic in that way, but tool use specifically is a physical product of high curiosity, and can be learned regardless of if a species is naturally as curious as those tool-using species.

[runic heart]

What…

[balmy oyster]

My favourite mosasaur, the mid-cretaceous pliosaur

[slow trench]

Honestly I might just be failing to impart my abstract thoughts about the topic. Cause I am trying to read what you're putting down, but something is getting lost in translation ^^;;;

Genetics are something physical, and those physical genetics, like the capacity for higher intelligence, can create something abstract [curiosity] which is not written in genetic code. Because, evidently, some humans do not have that curiosity despite having the capacity for it.

Then through that abstract trait, tool use is born, but not every member of that species cares enough about tool use to learn it. Thus to me tool use dose not equal genetic

[little mauve]

Taught versus genetic = false dichotomy. Separating humans from tools is a highly arbitrary decision and poorly informed by our evolutionary and cultural history.

[woeful falcon]

Yeah but why does it need to be genetic

[slow trench]

Because they were saying tool use was 'genetic' which to me, is a false statement, or at the very least inaccurate. Genetics are a physical thing, not an abstract concept to apply to things that aren't carved into genes.

[woeful falcon]

Well, it is in part lol. But again, why would that disqualify tool usage from the original convo?

[slow trench]

ngl I've kinda forgotten the original convo throughout the debate I've been building off like, the previous two replies with each of my replies cuz my attention span sucks at holding onto things.

[little mauve]

Genes are one part of the picture of what an organism is. Ecology, ethology, phylogeny, are all just as important in defining what an organism "is" as a tabula rasa. And tool use in hominids would certainly fall within those categories.

[stiff osprey]

I've never met a human who lacks the ''curiosity'' or ''care'' to use any sort of tool. It's not optional to our survival, it's as integral to human existance as claws and teeth are to a lion

[woeful falcon]

It's also just, part of the brain

The abstract concepts can all still be boiled down to that pinkish gray thing in our skulls firing off, which is a very physical thing that is part of us

Curiosity's also not unique to us! It evolved!

[slow trench]

Well that's because they're raised with tools, but if they weren't I wouldn't be surprised if some people [these days] would be like 'but opening clams with my hands is tradition, I don't care about your fancy way of doing it when my hands work good enough ' /j

But I've met plenty of people who have no interest in learning things, especially with the rise of AI

Humans have the capability to use things like cranes, or planes but they still have to be taught how to do it, ya know? It's not innate.

[woeful falcon]

I think it's not practical, and truthfully probably detrimental to an argument, to discount tool usage as an evolutionary adaptation, especially when it is so integral.

I also think its not wise to use the endgame content of tools as a point for you. Don't need to be taught that sticks and stones can break your bones after all. But after millions of years of evolution both in humans, human sociality, and evolution of the tools, the stick became a crane

[slow trench]

Oh I know that dw, lotta animals that are naturally curious can pick up on tool use, but tool use specifically isn't carved into instincts or genes.

Humans aren't particularily special on the tool use front, even dolphins can use tools, but they don't have the physical adaptations humans and apes have. Same with crows, all they got are generic beaks and talons that extend and close base on their leg's position
.

[little mauve]

Humans are extremely special on the tool use front

[stiff osprey]

If you somehow learned to speak lion and tried to teach it to hunt in a totally different way from how its parents taught it I imagine it wouldn't be too fond of the idea either

[slow trench]

Depends on how effective it is at getting food compared to how they normally hunt

Some lions have become fish-eaters along the cost, drastically different from most lions.

[woeful falcon]

Here I'll throw you a bone

Tools are an external pressure driving our evolution that we just so happened to have created inadvertently created to drive that evolution. But it is part of our evolution even if it isn't in the DNA in the most literal sense

And we did it too ourselves, and we only did it in the way we did because of our evolution prior. No matter what, you just can't remove tools from the equation. If I am put on a forest with nothing, I will make something because I can. That is my evolutionary advantage. I will try and figure stuff out. My brain is my claws and I'll use it haha

[paper parcel]

Could Paraceratherium survive the early to mid permian?

[stiff osprey]

No, as paraceratheres evolved in an angiosperm-dominated world, it would have nothing to eat

[slow trench]

I'm not trying to remove tools from the equation as far as I know

But yes, tool use is a result of external pressure and having pre-existing traits that can make it easy to pick up the skill

It is not literally carved into DNA, no but DNA sure as hell helps it along

Honestly you basically just summarized the concept I was trying [and failing] to put into words, thank you

[paper parcel]

Honestly wish paraceratherium lived to the modern day, kinda sad how most megamammals did not survive

[woeful falcon]

That was the point of the original conversation, if you remove tools from human they are a stinky poopies. But you can't really remove tools from human. It will make and use tools because that is how it uses its brain, and the human brain is its claws. Just as a lion slashes and bites, the human alters its world around it

[bitter quest]

Even if they did humans would've made them near extinct or in entirety

[slow trench]

RIGHT, that was where this started.

Yeah I was just doing a brain puzzle with my previous 'humans vs animals suck when you trip it down to bare bones' rhetoric. Put a human in an empty arena with a bear and they're gunna die

And the thing that started it all was someone [on Twitter] saying humans are super strong and can punch animals out and thus are better then them

Lemme find it

[slow trench]

This is what started the whole thing

It was a really dumb statement [probably rage bait] and the guy sharing the link was asking if it was fact

[bitter quest]

100 humans vs gorilla ahh thing

[woeful falcon]

Humans do rightfully get crapped on and we are full of ourselves, but when you look at humanity with a different lens, an animal that became so adapted in its intelligence and external manipulation with its anatomy than within a fraction of time, it touched other worlds. That's something special to me

[tough parcel]

"Humans are rlly tough" mfs when I punch them in the solar plexus

[slow trench]

Oh no, I 100% see where you're comin from. That was never in question. Humans are weird, wonderful, and also horrifying.

But I definitely don't want humans to underestimate animals, that gets people killed. Which is why I was debating 'against' humans

[little mauve]

I like the idea that people in cultures that coexist with apex predators go around punching them in the face

[tough parcel]

I think there's an incredibly critical distinction to be had that humans are objectively pretty good at existing in the wilderness, we kinda had to until the first civilizations cropped up

But we should also realize that duking it out with a coyote isn't going to be as easy as kicking a chihuahua

Even then, a chihuahua's gonna mess your lower legs up

[bitter quest]

People forget the only reason we're apex predators is because our intelligence and ability to create tools. If we didn't have that we would still be fearing big cats and such hunting us

[paper parcel]

Paraceratherium/palaeoloxodon namadicus solos trex

[woeful falcon]

Well see that was one of the arguments, that generally speaking we have always had tools and that they are a product of that intelligence, which is a product of our evolution. And we've always feared big cats and to this day still do. But we also learn to understand big cats, read their behaviors, and learned ways to defend ourselves with or without tools.

[stiff osprey]

It's just a pointless argument to make because of course an animal without its primary way of defending itself/killing prey would be useless. If you took out a lion's teeth and claws it would die faster than a human without tools

[slow trench]

Yeah, but at the end of the day it's a bit easier to loose a tool/not have the right one when you need it then for a lion to magically have their claws and teeth detach from them.

[bitter quest]

Though makes you wonder if we didn't become the most dominant species and were still eating plant matter than other animals what feline living today would've started viewing us as a prey option

[balmy oyster]

I mean a good amount already do so I don’t think much would change

[bitter quest]

Since prehistory always shown there was always a big cat evolved by ancient humans

True but which one would've done it more is the question

[balmy oyster]

Well yeah, hominids weren’t the only animals speciating

[bitter quest]

Nature is just fascinating on surprising us

[slow trench]

Idk if our species' ancestors were strictly plant eaters. I mean chimps eat meat, and some humans are born with rather large canines meaning there's a gene that humans could've used to have that gave them incisors large enough to eat meat

[balmy oyster]

I mean one of the main factors that is considered for hominid evolution is tool use & capability of traversing long distances to take down prey, even much earlier on before more derived species

[stiff osprey]

For a hunter-gatherer, not so much. They would be able to make the tools they need on the spot, much faster than it takes for a lion to naturally grow them

Taking a 21st century human and putting them in the woods without tools would be more akin to taking a pug and putting it in the woods, it's been bred for hundreds of years to lose the instincts and physical capabilities that let it survive there

Though of course a human also needs time to naturally develop its tool use from birth but that's what we evolved extended parental care and group behavior for

[little mauve]

Australopithecus, the genus that precedes Homo, was almost entirely herbivorous

[slow trench]

Well, yes, but generally lion cubs aren't hunting things the size of humans. So not sure what you mean by 'growing' fangs. Adults that hunt prey tend to already have them

Meanwhile humans don't have a spear on them 24/7, and even then spears don't always work against large things.

Early Slavic people outright avoided the forest as much as they could due to fearing bears, because spears don't do much against a brown bear.

[queen oar]

What if I added all of Falcon's and Random's works into my soup? ( they instantly become lost media )

[slow trench]

Oh, cool, learned something new

It's interesting that humans turned out to be omnivorous, super fascinating stuff.

[bitter quest]

Welp I'm gonna mention a game people kinda forgot about Ancestors: The Humankind Odyssey

[queen oar]

( it bad )

You fools... You unleashed his wrath

[bitter quest]

[slow trench]

Actually I played the game

But I really struggled with the mechanics so I didn't get very far

[bitter quest]

I haven't gotten the chance sadly

[queen oar]

Gbones is contemplating what he'll type next, as he has reached the peak of his sanity

[slow trench]

It's super good, but discovering new recipes can be hella hard. When I played it, it was new, so there were no guides to help me

[and I was a dumb kid]

[little mauve]

Sent my message then got dinged for using the genus name for our species. Contemplating rewriting it

[queen oar]

violin begins to play in chaotic tone

[bitter quest]

I guess darwin's theory kicked in /j

[slow trench]

I was wondering where it went

Man, it dinging our species genus name is wild tho. PoT says yer not allowed to be 'gay'

[balmy oyster]

Home of sapiens

[little mauve]

Homer simpsien

[bitter quest]

Hom° sapiens

[queen oar]

Gbono simpsons

[bitter quest]

Insert dragon ball Frieza most known line

[queen oar]

@little mauve what if you did paleoart?

[bitter quest]

Anyway uh wakaleo

[queen oar]

David Peters diagram I see

[balmy oyster]

I mean all he did here was color the skull so it’s not too egregious

[little mauve]

I haven't in quite some time. It doesn’t really appeal to me anymore and I don't have the skill to translate my ideas into drawings most of the time

[queen oar]

So you did paleoart?

[little mauve]

Yeah but never that seriously

[queen oar]

Show it, let me see it

[little mauve]

Tracking down something is not worth the effort it would take, trust me. If I ever draw anything again I'll share it here

[queen oar]

What if I said I am curious and interested?

[ashen nacelle]

I have to come here to say that a dinosaurs name means captain hook (Trierarchuncus) This is for the good of this world.

[slow trench]

This is amazing news

[little mauve]

It'd be quite a bit of effort sorry, digging up old computers and accounts and whatnot. Real pain in the neck for some mediocre at best drawings from years and years ago.

[queen oar]

Well, if you want to, just give me a lead and I do the search then.

[little mauve]

Pretty sure I don't have anything online you could search for, I had a deviantart account at some point but I have no idea what the username is or what email is associated with it. It's a lost cause. One of these days I'll draw a dinosaur and share it here

[mental cloak]

Thats a funny name

[queen oar]

this man is ragebaiting me.

[mental cloak]

Dont hear him,Agnes

[queen oar]

@little mauve Well, you leave me no choice, I'm gonna go ruin a Baryonyx's day

[mental cloak]

Is that a thing?

[tough parcel]

How the Baryonyx is gonna feel

[solemn island]

The Miragaia (named after the Portuguese city “Miragaia”) is a herbivorous dinosaur that lived around 150 million years ago. It looked like Stegosaurus, but with a longer neck. It had plates on its back and spikes on its tail to defend itself against predators. He was herbivorous 🪴.
——————————————————
In this game, the Miragaia is quite realistic. It is moderately slow, herbivorous, and uses its tail to defend itself, only being able to attack from the front with a single attack.

[jagged trellis]

ja

[opaque quail]

So... Why are there 2 different Ornithomimus with one being a ornithomimid and the other a alvarezsaurid?

[stiff osprey]

"Ornithomimus" is in quotes because they thought it was Ornithomimus at the time but don't anymore

It's common practice when this happens to keep the old name in quotes until it gets a new name (which i fear will never happen for O.minutus because it sucks)

I think the big one is pretty well preserved but it's hard to beat dinosaur park or horseshoe canyon in that regard

"orcomimus"

however on further research it is missing the entire front half so not great

[balmy oyster]

nah if lancian shares it publically then it's meant to be finished

it's still a really good skeletal even if not everything is included

[keen citrus]

Is there a non avian dinosaur without lips

[stiff osprey]

None that can be proven to lack lips

It would make sense for like Spinosaurus to be lipless but we don't know

[scenic flame]

"built for taking on animals our size" is pushing it a little for an animal weighing like 12kg imo, we're 6 times their size

[scenic flame]

^
Humans are referred to as 'obligate tool users' iirc

[tulip gyro]

crocodilians dont have lips, they dont need them. or what would count as lips for you on crocodilians ?

ah alright, well then the person basically just meant lips that dont cover the theeth.

but does the points you said even count as lips scientifically, i've never heard someone say this, as lips function as a help for communication or prevent the theeth from drying out and stuff? Even if i research abit, they are listed as "lipless" reptiles because the soft oral tissue does not count as lips as described online.

well but they still cover the theeth when closed, atleast from what i found, there is nothing written about crocodylians posessing these

they should have lost this ancestral trait because they werent needed, as lips function to prevent dehydration of the theeth and to keep them clean and few more things. and crocodilians are spending most of their time in water, so there isnt any use to them. this process is called rudimentation.

but all of this could be wrong what im saying. we need someone with more knowledge on this topic lol

The tissue covering the jaw is a type of keratinized, hardened skin that blends into the gum tissue and attaches closely to the skull, i dont honestly know where the lip tissue would be located at, as the skin just directly merges with the gum.

[ashen wedge]

Question about Sinosaurus Sinensis, and that is if it different from Sinosaurus Triassicus, and if so what are the differences. Since I have been seeing conflicting reports of them being different or being junior synonyms for one another

[outer tusk]

Skull

[ashen wedge]

Are the specimens confirmed adults?

[outer tusk]

No histology but I assumed so

[ashen wedge]

I’ll take it with a grain of salt till I can find more papers on the subject material

[keen citrus]

Is there a adult depiction of doolysaurus

[outer tusk]

I mean Sinosaurus sinensis size is comparable to an adult dilophosaurus so it's not hard to make a pretty educated guess

[paper parcel]

Could palaeoloxodon survive the triassic?

[outer tusk]

No

[scenic flame]

Yeah I would say crocs etc are truely lipless, though most "lipless" dino depictions are just short lipped with the teeth poking out of the lips

[keen citrus]

Do yall think there is a avian dinosaur that walks like the American woodcock

https://tenor.com/view/walking-bird-dancing-dance-boogey-gif-17878658

[steep atlas]

I choose to believe spinosaurids moved like this

[lavish frigate]

Spinosaurids had a different style of locomotion every time they walked because they did it so rarely they just forget every time

Like fat stupid herons with diabetus

In the most loving possible way

[zealous ravine]

Yes they are distinct, and some people believe them to be separate genera as well. The main difference is the skull but they differ in proportions as well. As you can see sinensis (the first image) has a shorter snout and taller crest, overall resembling dilophosaurus more, while triassicus (second image) has a longer snout and shorter, more rectangular crest

[ashen wedge]

Makes sense, anything on the Sinensis’s height and weight? Since I am trying to figure out if The Muldoon Logs were right about making the Movie Dilos be Sinensis and the Novel Dilos be Dilophosaurus (OG species)

[tough parcel]

They're similar in size

[ashen wedge]

I mean if there is any weight estimates given along with heights

[obsidian tangle]

Ah yes the THeeTH

[fierce tusk]

where my stygimoloch believers at

[steep atlas]

I believe it is a species of pachycephalosaurus

[runic heart]

Might not be a separate genus, but I guess I’m one.

[queen oar]

I believe every idea Horner ever suggested should be thrown out of the window ( and it is totally justified )

[runic rover]

I'm going to absolutely stop you from touching my maiasaura.

Tho feel free to throw everything else.

[queen oar]

No, see Maiasaura, Einiosaurus and whatever else, can and could've existed without Horner's involvement. Everything else? Atomize it out of this reality.

Legit, just redescribe every taxa described by Horner, take all of the credit, remove his publications from any scientific journal and the world would significantly heal.

[runic rover]

Well I can't argue with that

I just hope this is not "just" because of the scav rex, I hope it's for everything.

[queen oar]

Kinda impossible for it to just be because of Scav rex, given every other hypothesis and events surrounding the individual.

[warped peak]

Evidence for a semi-sprawling posture in the ceratopsid hindlimb is particularly intriguing as a semi-sprawling posture has been repeatedly proposed for the ceratopsid forelimb and suggests that ceratopsid posture may have been even more unusual than previously thought

@ionic crescent Thing on femur morphology implying a semi-sprawling posture in Ceratopsids, for CSVP from Abstract

[ionic crescent]

I think synchro mentioned me once as well

But that's pretty cool regardless, indeed

[warped peak]

Focused on Centrosaurus. Will definitely be checking it out while at the conference

[queen oar]

@warped peak I need a Nanotyrannus skeletal, sir ( Please )

[queen oar]

oh damn

[frosty cedar]

Is this accurate?

Have just found it. Os is it heavily debatable?

[balmy oyster]

The skeletal I think, the description, weight and length are all made up stuff and should be ignored.

[queen oar]

yeah, the stats, at least in this particular image, should be ignored.

[frosty cedar]

I had a feeling this didn't make sense.

The skeleton looks off, but that's just my feeling, maybe it'll get revised later.

[charred hearth]

thoughts?

[balmy oyster]

Hopefully shouldn’t happen anymore, we’ve talked with dizzy about this

[runic heart]

The skeletal is correct. Anything else in that particular image is not

[queen oar]

Unfortunately for Folkes, the edits will continue until morality improves ( Otherwise, I agree with Armin's statement )

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/32_vu32810/status/2045136793427718152 like, the one the post is talking abt?

Luke Duong (@32_vu32810)

That's Dizzy Rose for ya. She'd take someone's skeleton and modify it estimate as per her liking and bias, lol.

X · Apr 17, 2026, 1:46 PM

[frosty cedar]

Thanks!

[frosty cedar]

I don't get whats up with anime girls being used as a scale bar.

[frosty cedar]

Goofy ahh spino🤢

[queen oar]

I think it has more to do with the fact that: it's kinda of a niche thing?

Although, I don't think anyone had problems for instance when people used characters from other works of fiction, not that there were many, mind you

We don't know Armin's opinion, so trying to understand what he is implying might be a bit more difficult in general. But, I think he is trying to say, that given how Paleo is already an niche, mixing it with another niche thing, in the execution of a skeletal diagram, something that is meant to be used for scientific reference or information, it might sorta of make it more difficult to introduce it to people, who aren't customed or familiar with these things. Which, would make the job of introducing something paleo-related even harder

Otherwise, he could just be saying it's a little absurd how fast it happens, and anime of all things gets included 🤷‍♂️

[scenic flame]

they're reference to rose's completely unsupported claim that the new Mosa skeletal makes it 13 meters~ and 5 tons~

This is based off litterally nothing and it pissed of the author along with other workers as it does nothing but mislead the public using someone else's work to cloak their own claims in some sense of reliability

[charred hearth]

why was this behavior never called out in the past?

[queen oar]

No no no, that's true. I'm more so arguing, that maybe Armin pointed that detail, because in a scenario where there was real, proper practice of a " Good Reference " ( and not something like Rose's references ), this kinda of practice would probably create more difficulties in general, in terms of spreading it to more wide, public reach.

[tough parcel]

It has been, they even joined this channel to start crying about how they're the victim without understanding the real issue (they're just lying)

Unfortunately, YouTube kids don't care if their information is true or false, as long as it's cool and awesome while Dizzy Rose and co. don't care as long as it gets them views

[queen oar]

How long ago was it? Was it last month that happened?

[tough parcel]

Few months ago

[queen oar]

@tough parcel say, what if I interviewed Dizzy Rose? LMFAO

[outer tusk]

gng you of all people don't need to do so

[balmy oyster]

maybe I’m looking into it too deeply but did she copy what dan folkes said at the end of her paragraph…?

[queen oar]

True, but it would be funny.

[tough parcel]

My only comment is that credit was not a problem here

It's the fact that a majority of the information was flat-out wrong or made up (slow swimming?? 5 tons??) and, addressing the credit, she discounted Sharpe's work by implying it was mostly Dr. Zietlow's doing when all she did was say "Yea, I agree with his results"

[outer tusk]

the only funny part would be you trying to do so, but ever than that it wouldn't

[queen oar]

You may have a point. But, I think it would be important. I think it's a bit important to note that this person kinda of uses other people's work and information, which trying to use works that have been done to work in individual contexts, with contexts given by other people, without asking permission from those original artists... And the thing is, people already went into this with them, and the thing is that, it didn't work, because they did it again. So, just confrontation doesn't solve anything, if anything ( really ), people should pressure them to do their own stuff

Because, confronting someone who doesn't want to do sacrifices to perfect a product of their own, doesn't really do anything, that person may apologize, may recognize the mistake, but ultimately, if there's no habit to produce their own product, they are going to do it again at some time later.

[outer tusk]

dude we don't need YOU to do this

[queen oar]

Oh definetly. But you gonna do it?

[tough parcel]

I think the only thing here that matters is people have been trying to express the various concerns only for the same problems to show up later

[queen oar]

See, it's cases like this, where some people don't want to address the problem by the root, and then that problem just grows larger eventually. If you don't pressure people like Dizzy Rose to do their own stuff, they are going to still use other people's stuff, likely without their permission, likely with information from unreliable third-parties. Now, to clarify, I'm NOT wishing, NOR hoping that happens, because... If this time there already was this much controversy, next time, independent to who's work they do it again, it's going to be MUCH WORST.

[runic heart]

Holy run-on sentence.

[frosty cedar]

I used the same exact image in my biology report in school about the existence of amphicoelias, good times.

[paper parcel]

Same

[mental cloak]

What a horrible image to wake up to

[balmy oyster]

cry

[paper parcel]

It's cute

Spinosaurus but based

[honest wave]

Rutiodon

I like Rutiodon

[rich vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/pirates-of-the-caribbean-captain-jack-sparrow-dead-men-tell-no-tales-disgusted-revolting-gif-12687526

[paper parcel]

I like

[honest wave]

So real

[balmy oyster]

Why is it fluffy

[paper parcel]

Evolution

[balmy oyster]

No poposauroid has signs of any feathering 🥀

[paper parcel]

life uhh, finds a way

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/CamusAltamirano/status/2045217143705182563

CamusAltamirano (@CamusAltamirano)

Walking with Beasts: Whale Killer

The second episode of the documentary series Walking with Beasts, is set during the transition between the late Eocene and early Oligocene epochs.

X · Apr 17, 2026, 7:05 PM

[wind prairie]

wait YEAH WHAT???
WTF that's like putting feathers on a lizard

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/NatSciChannel/status/2045212493140951091 thoughts?

EDGE Central (@NatSciChannel)

🚨NEW STUDY DROP🚨

Lowkirkenuinely? The conodont genus, Kirkupodus and its handful of species has been re-analyzed and its evolution explored. Fossils come from across the globe, from Europe to Australia.

🎨: @Prehistorica_CM

X · Apr 17, 2026, 6:47 PM

[mental cloak]

This one looks weird cuz they cut his neural tail thing

[mental cloak]

What a ugly creature
I love him

[mental cloak]

Why is it smiling to me

[balmy oyster]

It knows.

[paper parcel]

The humble pachyrhinosaurus

Also, The gomphothere, the Irl madrehorn

[balmy oyster]

Maybe shrinkwrapping was better

[cloud dagger]

Stegotetrabelodon is not gomphothere

[ionic linden]

i've seen pachyrhino with feathers a lot but it looks so strange every time

[paper parcel]

Animals today are pretty strange too

[ionic linden]

i mean... you have a point there

[paper parcel]

Paraceratherium is also pretty weird, it's basically a mammal that turned into a sauropod

[ashen nacelle]

I just wish i could unsee this paleo-art, so now you have to see it too.

[queen oar]

I can do worse.

[ashen nacelle]

its just how it has human like skin, and its beak is covered in it

[paper parcel]

Vulture moment

[paper parcel]

Mammal sauropod lol(they also defended themselves via kicking and stomping like titanosaurs)

[ashen nacelle]

just gonna send this.

[queen oar]

Yeah this is a Stegotetrabelodon.

[paper parcel]

The irony is that most dinosaurs sucked at swimming

[ashen nacelle]

old paleoart is something

[balmy oyster]

This is true do NOT test em

[balmy oyster]

Even birds are sorta awkward, most either swim like stingrays or only use their feet

[queen oar]

It's essentially a threat lol

[paper parcel]

Ambulocetus was basically a furry croc lol, if crocs actually did go extinct we might have had fluffy/whale crocs

[ashen nacelle]

I mean dont croc scales help prevent ripples in the water while they move?

[queen oar]

I think it's funny that it's totally possible for someone to make a test of " What is this four-tusked Proboscidean?? "

And if the reconstruction is good, anyone would respond " Oh, it's just a gomphothere, some mammutidae or whatever "

If the reconstruction is an abomination and insult to proboscidean anatomy, 90% would respond " Oh yeah, it's Stegotetrabelodon "

Stegotetrabelodon is just fated to suffer with bad reconstructions for the rest of it's conceptualized existence.

[paper parcel]

What if the ambulocetus evolved pangolin "scales" to help with that

[ashen nacelle]

let me do some more research in croc scales brb

[runic heart]

What happened to kronosaurus?

[charred hearth]

it got its flippers shrunk

[balmy oyster]

Kronosaurus got it’s flippers shrunk

[charred hearth]

plesiosaurs
Pliosaurs
itchyosaurs
mosasaurids
Thalattosuchia

are these all the extinct marine reptile clades and suborders?

[woeful falcon]

googles to be sure

plenty of other extinct marine reptiles. take nothosaurs for example

[spice latch]

Reptile CLADES

[woeful falcon]

yeah, that would be a clade lol. or a shorthand of a clade. Not referring to Nothosaurus specifically

and if I was well, Nothosaurus isn't in the clades mentioned thus far. There's also those turtle guys that aren't actually turtles that I don't know what they're called

[mental cloak]

I love dinosaurs

[foggy gazelle]

yes

[paper parcel]

I love mammals

[mental cloak]

I like mammals too
Btw
Is the Colombian Mammoth the biggest mammoth?

[paper parcel]

I honestly never looked at the Colombian mammoth sadly, I just thought it was a mammoth without fur

[stiff osprey]

Biggest mammoth yes, but not the biggest proboscidean, that would be the straight tusked elephant

[mental cloak]

Aremt every elphant tusked?/j

[queen oar]

the joke is that some specimens of Palaeloxodon, specifically P. antiquus had straight-tusks, and that common-name stuck to the genera.

[paper parcel]

Palaeoloxodon Namadicus, then you have the smallest elephant, palaeoloxodon falconis

[mental cloak]

I mean
He's leggy and tall

[paper parcel]

The Colombian mammoth just looks like a shaved mammoth tbh

[mental cloak]

Not much cuz mammoths(wolly) r more short and stocky
They have less long legs

Also i didnt know wolly mammoths were that short compared to modern day elephats
I mean it makes sense since tue need to conserve heat cuz of the extra cold climate they live

[stiff osprey]

they're also not that big, depending on the population they ranged from smaller than an indian elephant to around african

[mental cloak]

Yeah i was talking about that

[stiff osprey]

look at the little guy

(he could kill me in 1 second)

[mental cloak]

Just a lil baby:3
(he could kill me in a blink of an eye)

[queen oar]

A chudling ( Just feed it some hay, duh )

[mental cloak]

My chud son M.Primigenius

[queen oar]

Do we legit not have any studies on the biomechanics or flexibility of Mosasaur skeletons?

[mental cloak]

Idk if we have tbh

But i have a theory that mosa was pretty flexible
Like how monitor lizards are

[true juniper]

Is the prehistoric planet thing true where they can bend their bodies into a C shape to accelerate really fast

[coral forge]

There's also penguins and nothosaurs. Also pliosaurs would fit under plesiosaurs since they are plesiosaurs

Ig you could mabye also consider Deinosuchus to be a marine reptile but thats probably a stretch

[mental cloak]

I mean..
And stomatosuchus?

[coral forge]

Well Stomatosuchus lived in freshwater so it wouldn't exactly be considered ocean dwelling

[mental cloak]

Hmmmmm yeah makes sense

I like stomatosuchus
It was the one tryin a diferent niche..but got extinct shortly after

[frosty cedar]

Wait, I thought all dinosaurs could swim in some way except maybe sauropods.

[green helm]

what yall talking bout

[green helm]

well the eastern population can be i guess

[stable sun]

glory to Bahariasaurus

[warm saddle]

Anybody got an up to date A fragilis or A anax skeletal?

[warm saddle]

Thank you fish man..or women

[coral forge]

the best noasaur ❤️‍🩹
-# (first time ragebaiting please be mad)

[balmy oyster]

[tiny yoke]

https://youtu.be/Mu7z3PzqC0w?si=h2iwrszA2w5P7PMy

[runic rover]

Poor stomato tried to use a nonmeta non antimeta build

[outer tusk]

holy slop

[mellow prism]

im mad

[polar rain]

Could ceratosaurus' osteoderms have keratin like this drawing I made? I really like how they look

[tiny yoke]

The AI ​​messes things up towards the end, which is a shame.

[paper parcel]

Nuralagus Rex, a giant Rabbit from the pliocene.

[cloud dagger]

Those pics have quite bad rabbit anatomy

[winter marsh]

Placodonts too

[ionic crescent]

The mighty nail

[runic heart]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t it be covered more like Prehistoric Planet’s triceratops than Prehistoric Kingdom’s?

[ionic crescent]

Actually no, the cover, the "horn" is only on the upper side alone

That's why I said nail

I haven't seen underside on PK, so don't know it it's correct or not

[runic heart]

So either option is fine? As long as…. Something is correct with the underside?

[ionic crescent]

PhP is flat wrong cause is a whole horn in jugal area lol

The general shape is fine, you can have something like that, but the "horn" would be just the tip on the up-side (a nail)

[runic heart]

Ohhhhhhh too much of the jugal bone is on the outside. I see. So in terms of flesh covering on the jugal as a whole, ignoring too much exposed bone, which is more likely?

[ionic crescent]

Given the whole exoparia stuff, a lot of the muscle and tissue would attach on the jugal

So what PK has, the whole jugal being visible, is likely no longer accurate

PhP seems to have the jugal better shape (unless is just a side effect of how morbid obese their animals are)

[runic heart]

So the new WWD ceratopsians would be a better example? Minus the stupid pachyrhinosaurus, terrible design.

[ionic crescent]

Something more like this, but the cheek being whole horn instead a surface (as stylization looks incredible tho)

Sculpts made by Zach (epic work)

[runic heart]

So basically what the prehistoric planet one has going on.

[ionic crescent]

As stated previously, PhP shape seems fine

Just it being a whole horn instead a nail

[runic heart]

Yeah, makes sense. Thanks.

[steep atlas]

I gotta wonder if ceratopsids had any sexual dimorphism that we haven't noticed yet due to limited sample size

[tough parcel]

The bonebeds we have don't show significant difference tmk

[ember hatch]

Eocen period snail which has a snail drill mark on it, my coolest snail fossil

[tender dove]

It looks brand new

[ember hatch]

They look rlly pretty for something that's approximately 56-32 million years old

All I got in a day at an eocen wall it was an awesome experience

[paper parcel]

Cute, kinda funny Nuralagus has the same last "name" as tyrannosaurus

[steep atlas]

i want one

[paper parcel]

Diictodon, a permian stem mammal

[steep atlas]

definitely need one of those

[green helm]

https://tenor.com/view/goku-prowler-goku-goku-mad-goku-dbs-dbs-gif-11120329515669448575

[queen oar]

how many calories do you think both of these have?

[runic rover]

Frankly idk why would fans be mad, even if it's not a noasaur tf is it then?

"My favorite dinosaur is baharisaurus".

"Cool, how does it look like?".

"..."

[coral forge]

big ahh megaraptor, trust

-# (100% not cope)

[runic rover]

It would be kinda cool... But wouldn't it be too early for a megaraptor?

[stiff osprey]

they were already around in Asia and South America at the time, the only thing weird is that mid-cretaceous megaraptorans are 4-6 meters long, while Baharia is... well

[queen oar]

I'd bet on a Giant Elaphrosaurine convergent to Deinocheirus/Therizinosaurus

[coral forge]

what if the small specimens are normal Bahariasaurus and the big one is just megaraptor X-Rex

[queen oar]

Tell Dead Sound to make a Dinosauria Episode with Bahariasaurus, and we may get an answer LOL

[coral forge]

depends where that episode takes place considering the thing spans like all of northern africa

[queen oar]

No, I'm just joking, because the last episode got hit by two papers

[wind prairie]

wait there was mutta, what was the other???

[mental cloak]

Guys
Is Irritator a Spinosaurine or a Baryoniqine?

[stiff osprey]

spinosaurine

[mental cloak]

Ah ok thx

I love irritator
One of my fav spinosaurids
Also do we have any more fossil material of it or we just have the skull?

[charred hearth]

https://x.com/NatSciChannel/status/2045535463222673494

EDGE Central (@NatSciChannel)

🚨NEW STUDY DROP🚨

A new attempt at sinking Raptorex - new study finds that Asiatyrannus and Raptorex don't really have enough diagnostic non-ontogenetically related traits to be considered unique genera, and share too many traits with Tarbosaurus.

🎨: below

X · Apr 18, 2026, 4:10 PM

[lavish frigate]

Lipless? 500 years in jail

[stable sun]

skull is the only definitive material

[tulip gyro]

https://klipy.com/gifs/shut-shut-up-7

[coral forge]

2?

[queen oar]

Yeah Muttaburrasaurus and Kronosaurus

[coral forge]

what was the kronosaurus paper

[queen oar]

@coral forge @wind prairie So, essentially, I didn't read anything yet, but from what I'm getting, the flippers could've been, slightly or quite a bit smaller?

Unless it was misinformation, because it was on Twitter.

[mental cloak]

Oh god

[mental cloak]

Mods,put water molecules on every atom on this guy'd body

[opaque kayak]

Holy

[mental cloak]

Hey why Qianzhousaurus had such a long skull

[jagged trellis]

the better to snoff you with
( iirc long snouts are better for plucking and precision over power and speed)

[mental cloak]

Ah makes sense

[runic heart]

Yeah something happened idk what

[mental cloak]

I guess DeadSound have to redo the last epsode of dinosauria..if..he ever do that

[stiff osprey]

they just made that up

[queen oar]

Nah, I think that would interfere with his plans of continuining the season.

[runic heart]

Also saw something about a new skeletal for kronosaurus? Based on Monquirasaurus for some reason though..

[queen oar]

Did they made that up? I think IT IS a bit smaller

[mental cloak]

Now im curious to how this thing swim

[queen oar]

Probably most of the impulse input is made by the hind flippers tbh

[mental cloak]

Hmmmm like a reverse sea turtle

[orchid lynx]

you cant proof dinosaurs had lipps

[lavish frigate]

I mean technically but we can strongly infer it

[jagged trellis]

bro lost the block eo talks and has moved to lips lmao

[coral forge]

well if you ignore the fact that some specimens preserve lips then sure

[warped peak]

You're right, Eo has a beak instead of lips!

[orchid lynx]

its an assumption not a fact :))

[queen oar]

just like Lipless?

[warped peak]

Lipped dinosaurs is a something that needs to be disproven, not proven. Lips are the ancestral conditions of Amniotes as a whole

Spinosaurus has actual evidence that suggests it might be lipless for example

[queen oar]

It seems that, unfortunately for you, the latter is heavily contested by Subjective Opinions

[wind prairie]

I know you're joking so please just make it funny

[coral forge]

mods, pull up that one Daspletosaurus specimen with preserved lips

[jagged trellis]

mods, find a mirror for any tetrapod who didn't actively remove or change said lips

[queen oar]

I thought that was for real, until I saw " April First " 😔 😔 😔

[coral forge]

I thought it was late March
was that actually an April fools thing 💔

[queen oar]

yup.

[ashen nacelle]

aw man

[stable sun]

well either that or their teeth fell off or something

[orchid lynx]

T rex had an overbite look those teeth these poor lipps! @stable sun No dinosaurs lived in a very moist climate

[queen oar]

you know what, shut the discussion about Lipless and Lips. Let's discuss instead: ||Ankylosaur Soup||

[coral forge]

nah, rank your top 50 hadrosaurs

[queen oar]

Don't think I can do that, Chief.

[coral forge]

why not

[queen oar]

Because I forgor

[wind prairie]

WAIT THAT WAS APRIL FOOLS???

[late bone]

So what do I believe, which one has a longer tail

[coral forge]

believe neither because Google AI sucks 👍

[late bone]

It isn't the ai thingy, it's -ai basically it's from media

Okay so my actual question between supersaurus and diplodocus hallorum which one has a longer tail, from my knowledge I know supersaurus had a longer neck than tail, and diplodocus has a longer tail but I don't know maybe that can be proven false by someone else that possibly knows better

[ashen nacelle]

I just had to make this (no teeth)

[late bone]

Bite force -57,000+ Newtons

[ashen nacelle]

i know its a joke

[orchid lynx]

still get dogwalked by Spinosaurus

[late bone]

Mine is a joke too

[ashen nacelle]

jokers

[mental cloak]

Put one singular tooth and a propeler hat and a lolipop on his had

[ashen nacelle]

bet

[mental cloak]

That one
And..that other one

Sorry idk much about hadrosaurs

[ashen nacelle]

uh crap like umh edmont?

[orchid lynx]

Nigersaurus?

[mental cloak]

Nigersaurus is a sauropod

[orchid lynx]

cant they be hadrosaur aswell?

[mental cloak]

No
Becuz thats not how that works

[mental cloak]

Yesss!!!!

[orchid lynx]

sweet

[crystal gull]

Wauh

[mental cloak]

I mean we can
Cuz of philogeny
Dinosaurs r reptiles
And u know it reptiles(outside of crocodiles which live most it's time in the water)
Have lips
U can see that in komodo dragons
Monitor lizards
And many other terrestrial reptiles
So yeah
As far as we know trex had lips to protect his teeth from the enviroment he lived
Like many others terrestrial dinosaurs
The only dinosaurs that r terrestrial and dont have lips are birds..cuz u know..they have beaks
So yeah

[orchid lynx]

Funny last time i said dinosaurs mean lizards they said to me they are Birbs what now? xD Crocodile dont have lipps and they have similar teeth to dinosaurs while lizards dont

[ashen nacelle]

birds are possibly weirdest animals on earth.

[jagged trellis]

i'm aware its bait but this is just factually not true on being similar to crocodile teeth, especially arguing for all of theropods

[mental cloak]

Thats just not true at all
I tjink the only dinosaur that have similar teeth to crocodiles r spinosaurids
But thats completaly inrrelevant

[orchid lynx]

i think we never know till we see one

[still prairie]

Spino is weird because it has the most evidence but its also like really weird skull wise

[warped peak]

I mean many lizard teeth are more similar to dinosaur teeth than crocodiles, and both alligators and crocodiles do actually have lips, but reduced

[mental cloak]

Isnt yutyrannus have preserved lips fossil?or i am crazy?

[mental cloak]

Eeehhh sorta
They have this higly keratinezed tissue over their teeth

[ashen nacelle]

AAAAH

[warped peak]

It's a fully functional lip where it overlaps. Their cranial skin is heavily keratinized as a whole, but lip is lip

[full lagoon]

Sauropods were very buoyant given how pneumatized their bodies are

[topaz shell]

Weren’t sauropods and hadrosaurs found (thought) to be sorta good at long distance swimming or smt?

[full lagoon]

Iirc Hadrosaurs are definitely thought to be fairly strong swimmers

[coral forge]

thanks for reminding me about that new hadrosaur swimming paper that I was gonna read like a week ago but didn't have time and then forgot about 🥀

[full lagoon]

Swimming in what regard? Just generally?

[coral forge]

I only read the title but it looks like its talking about island hopping from europe to african

[little mauve]

"Applying our model to test the feasibility of extinct dinosaur dispersal between Africa and Europe during the Cretaceous via the Alboran route (the oceanic corridor separating Iberia from Morocco), we found that both hadrosaurs and titanosaurs could plausibly complete the journey, particularly under favorable conditions such as low sea levels, stepping-stone islands, and higher fat reserves. Hadrosaurs showed slightly better swimming efficiency. Dispersal was especially feasible during the early–middle Albian (112.5–107.5 Ma) and latest Cretaceous (72.5–66 Ma), but was unlikely during periods of high sea levels (97.5–77.5 Ma). These results support the possibility of trans-oceanic dinosaur dispersal across distances of up to ~560 km."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ece3.73280

[orchid lynx]

spino skull look very massive yet in most depictions it looks like they forgot muscles and just put a skin above it

[mental cloak]

What

[full lagoon]

Yeah that seems fairly likely to me

[mental cloak]

Makes sense ig
But arent they walking on land to cross thr continents instead of swimming?
I mean im not sayin thry couldnt swim im just sayin that is more plausable to them to walk instead of swim great distances

[full lagoon]

According to what they said they'd likely make island stops

[coral forge]

we have hadrosaur and titanosaur remains from places that wouldnt be accessible without island hopping

[little mauve]

It's basically just a model calculating whether it's energetically feasible or not

[mental cloak]

Hmmm right

[full lagoon]

I feel like even though sauropods might not have been as energetically efficient while swimming, buoyancy would help a ton

[mental cloak]

Yeah they were very FAT

[orchid lynx]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zX3Ma8Kx3w4

[full lagoon]

Less effort staying afloat by a good margin I'd think

[little mauve]

They weren't fat they were filled with air, which is what makes them buoyant

[mental cloak]

That too

[orchid lynx]

Pangea you knew it?

[full lagoon]

Yeah they honestly wouldn't have been particularly fat in a literal sense

[mental cloak]

First time u had a actualy good point but still
Island hopping is more likely..ig

[orchid lynx]

yes they dont need swim because they have sucha long neck

[full lagoon]

If we are talking about the ocean they'd definitely need to lol

[mental cloak]

I know
But i think it was a mix of fat and air to make em floaty floaty

Remmember that time a guy proposed that sauropods had like "guills" on the base of their necks for them to breath

[full lagoon]

Bro what

I've only ever heard of gilled reptiles in fiction and I'm assuming it's staying that way

[little mauve]

Pangea was broken up by the middle Cretaceous when these dispersals were occurring. Also theres nothing to indicate sauropods had higher body fat % compared to other dinosaurs or archosaurs more generally

[mental cloak]

Idk who was
But that was a thing someone proposed

[mental cloak]

Fair

[tulip dove]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2D9kPjqLeRE This pretty much explains that old theory

[mental cloak]

Yeaaah i was goin to say that the YDRW guy did a video about

[full lagoon]

Weird

[mental cloak]

Indeed

[scenic flame]

yall need to stop falling for Vally's bait

[orchid lynx]

bro with the time machine

[mental cloak]

Its funny tho i need to admit

[scenic flame]

I think it's more annoying than anything

[mental cloak]

Meh,just ignore it..sometimes i get angry then i remmeber that its bait si i just smile at the hidden camera like a sitcom

[queen oar]

Nah.

[wind prairie]

glad to see I'm not the only one who does this irl 💔

[queen oar]

Personally, I don't like the Lips terminology being used here, but calling the keratinuous sheath on Croc's faces as " Lips ", it's probably a giveaway that you are either coping or do not understand the topic to the fullest of it's extent

" Lips " ultimately tend to imply that the facial soft tissues ( usually covering the jaws, partially or entirely ) are made of some form of flexible tissue, and that's where the problem begins, the specific soft tissues we are talking about in Crocs, do NOT share any amount of flexibility. " Well, as well do the lips in Lizards- ", No

They, in-fact, can be flexible.

[wind prairie]

dog that is the ONE lizard that can do that 😭 I don't remember its name but it has some muscle higher in its face that pulls its front lip up a little, that's it

[queen oar]

Hump-Nosed Lizard, generic name is Lyriocephalus. But even then it's still showing that the tissues are made of flexible tissue, as well any activities that involving feeding mechanisms in Lizards, those tissues also bend and recover their original form. So not a " Non-Flexible Tissue " regardless.

[elfin pulsar]

I thought lips were just tissues covering the teeth

Isn’t it just about being fleshy, not necessarily super flexible

[mental cloak]

Lmao

[mental cloak]

He looks disgusted by the caterpillar
"Ugh..Father i deserve a better meal!"

[orchid lynx]

looks like a Dilobat

[queen oar]

In Paleoart? Generally, that is the objective/goal. If we talking about defining " Lips " or " Extra Oral Tissues ", they tend to be mostly, if not, in all examples, composed of flexible tissues. The issue is less with Lips itself, and more implying that the keratinuous sheath on the face of crocs is somehow a form of " Lips ", when that soft tissue lacks any flexibility, or if bended/pressed, it cannot recover it's original form/shape. So, not a " Lip Tissue ", nor a " Reduced Lip Tissue ".

[elfin pulsar]

Wait are some people seriously trying to say gators and crocs have lips??

[mental cloak]

Aparentaly

[queen oar]

Unfortunately, XS_Wes has become XS_Washed... 😔 😔 😔 ( ||/jk|| )

[mental cloak]

Imagine humans without lips

[elfin pulsar]

That sadly can happen, luckily it’s fairly restorable with surgery

[warped peak]

Lips do not imply flexible, it implies extended soft tissue around the mouth protecting the teeth

[queen oar]

Yes, but it is mostly composed of what? If per say, a lipped animals feeds on something, that tissue will bend to allow that material to enter in the mouth, how do you think that tissue relaxes, and recovers it's original form/shape?

[mental cloak]

Yeah
But imagine if we natuarly didnt had those

[warped peak]

Tissue does not need to be muscled to be flexed by an external object and regain shape

[queen oar]

Forget about muscles, muscles aren't just the only flexible tissue, there's multiple flexible tissues.

[warped peak]

If your view of lips requires manual flexibility, then no, dinosaurs did not have lips in all likelihood

[ionic crescent]

tbf, only varanids (and some sneks) would have lips if that's the meaning they are using

[queen oar]

Hm, now I don't know if this is a joke or argument bait.

[mental cloak]

Dinosaurs are likely to have lips
If its not a bird
Or it doesnt have a beak
Then it had lips

[warped peak]

Indeed. I'm saying that the definition of lips being used here is way too strict

[ionic crescent]

what wes is saying is that dinos had stiff lips, covering the teeth

[mental cloak]

No
I know
And i agree in some regard

[queen oar]

I think it's a bit interesting, that we are willing to imply that Lips do not imply that they are composed of some form of flexible tissues, when they have been documented to be flexible in some cases, and normally can be bended, but recover their original form/shape.

[steep jolt]

What fossil is this

[ionic crescent]

looks like a squirrel

[queen oar]

So, if Feilong is representing your argument correctly, uuuuh... Is he representing your argument correctly?

[mental cloak]

Mammal
A squirrel perhaps?
Or a skunk thing

[warped peak]

Yes

[steep jolt]

But squirrels arent extinct

[mental cloak]

???
U know there are prehistoric squirrels right?

[queen oar]

Hm, I'm a bit curious, what would make you think of that conclusion, when that itself feels very contradictory to any known examples we have of such soft tissue structure?

[warped peak]

Facial entegument covering the teeth external to gums is reasonably recognizable as lips regardless of the form

Have you seen fish

[mental cloak]

I like that guy's videos/j

[ionic crescent]

As stated, only monitors and very derived reptiles don't have stiff lipping coverage

Iguanians and tuatara, which are pretty primitive in their classification, have stiff lipping and is the "closest" living relative to saurs that have teeth covering lips

[queen oar]

Fish lips are flexible. Literally the lips of fish are discussed to have evolved alongside the breathing mechanisms in fish, and discussed to assist on feeding function, such as through suction.

[warped peak]

Lips exist in fish much more primitive than breathing air as a function of protection and concealment

And in most amphibians, they do not have flexible lips either

[mental cloak]

Did dunkleosteus had lips?

[queen oar]

not really. It's said that that the gastrointestinal system of early animals that evolved into fish would've likely done breathing first, before lungs were evolved. Such as in the embryonic evidence, where the gastrointestinal system is developed first in embryos.

[warped peak]

What does that have to do with lips being rigid or flexible

[elfin pulsar]

Imo lips just don’t need to be flexible, lips are just a covering for the teeth

[queen oar]

That is just more saying that, regardless if lips are older than breathing organs, they likely evolved with the function of sucking, sucking air, to breath. And you can't do that with non-flexible tissues.

[elfin pulsar]

That seems like a stretch

[ashen nacelle]

I know this is almost 100% imposable to be real but i just had to make this.

[queen oar]

Admittedly, yes.

[elfin pulsar]

I hate this 😭

[warped peak]

Especially when early tetrapodomorphs had jaw apparatus that allowed them to suck in air by simply opening their mouth without lips

[ashen nacelle]

LOL

[queen oar]

However, there's multiple studies that even show that in Mammals, breathing through the digestive system is totally possible. Just, Note: Not practical.

[orchid lynx]

Elephanterititan

[queen oar]

Hm, that is another interesting statement, when sucking has been mostly correlated to organisms who can do sucking, by bending their form and recovering their original shape/form... A form of flexibility

Also, I'm sorry that the bot removed your message.

[ashen nacelle]

still better than the Hatzegopteryx art i saw yesterday.

[warped peak]

It appears we are arguing separate points

You are arguing flexibility as any form of compression, whereas I am arguing flexibility as being able to be controlled and flexed by the animal itself

[queen oar]

I think, we are discussing the same thing, we are discussing if Lips are truly inherently flexible or not.

[elfin pulsar]

You can 100% inhale air without lips btw

Your diaphragm does all the work

[ashen nacelle]

This crap.

[queen oar]

That is true, but your Diaphragm also has to expand to accomodate the air getting inside you. When that Air is released, it relaxes and recovers it's original form.

[orchid lynx]

why crap it looks good like a giant chicken

[ashen nacelle]

it looks like a vulture.

[warped peak]

And yet it is not a lip and therefore irrelevant

[elfin pulsar]

What does that have to do with lips?

I’m not trying to be rude I just think I don’t understand

[queen oar]

No. But, is made of what? See, I'm not arguing that if it's a lip or not, but I think there's a detail there, that correlates to what we are discussing.

[warped peak]

No, not really. Its an entirely unrelated flexible structure to lips

[elfin pulsar]

What is that detail, the flexibility needed to breath or smthn?

[charred hearth]

how accurate would y'all say Prehestoric kingdoms titanoboa is?

[mental cloak]

Pretty accurate

[queen oar]

@warped peak but explain something, if extra oral tissues in Dinosaurs are stiff, are you implying in some form that they are more keratinuous? Per say, not like the croc's keratin sheath, but like a Pseudobeak, like Crazy Cau suggests in one of his blogposts?

[warped peak]

Not really, I'm implying that they function like most reptile lips

[ionic crescent]

Given how dinosaurs and relatives easily develop beaks, I wouldn't be surprised if their snouts were a tad keratinized in some places

[mental cloak]

Trex is thought to have a higly keratinized face in order to stand his bite force
And like
Other tyranosaurus' face bitting

[queen oar]

But they are flexible.

[elfin pulsar]

I’m lost

[warped peak]

As I said before, I'm fairly sure you are arguing something external to what i am

Reptile lips can move but its not like they can do complex motions like mammals can for the most part, which is what I was saying. Complex mobility is not needed for lips

[mental cloak]

Me too u r not alone

[charred hearth]

wait i have a idea

what started this entire arguement, like, how did we get here?

[mental cloak]

Arent monitor lizard lips movable when they drink water?

[warped peak]

For the most part, monitor lizards are outliers amongst Iguania as Feilong mentioned

[mental cloak]

Ah yes

[elfin pulsar]

Lips can absolutely be flexible, but I think that’s an extra attribute and not a requirement

[queen oar]

Try to answer this, a stiff issue, usually cannot be bended or if bended, per say, by some form of physical pressure, it cannot recovers it's original form, or if it's truly stiff, it just breaks...

Now, we do have multiple evidence of Lizards getting food in their mouth, and clearly they do pass between the " Lips " of Lizards, that tissue bends, but does not stay in that bended form, it goes back to it's original shape

What do you think that is? A Non-Flexible tissue or a Flexible tissue?

[elfin pulsar]

This is a little oversimplified as even tough/stiff tissue bends, bones bend constantly

[warped peak]

Please listen! I am not arguing that lizard lips are incapable of bending. I am arguing that bending is not important to it being a lip

[charred hearth]

talking with eachother or talking at eachother?

[elfin pulsar]

Yeah I think it’s two different points atp haha

[queen oar]

But that's not the point, the point is not just bending, it bends AND recovers it's original shape. Yes?

[warped peak]

No! That was never the point

[ionic crescent]

Elvis the Torvosaurus enters the chat (or any messed skull)

This is just a joke

[queen oar]

How not? lol

[elfin pulsar]

Was the point not purely what classified as a lip or not

[warped peak]

I give up. I am being told that I am arguing something entirely different to what I am arguinh

[queen oar]

Look, let me simplify it further for you:

If Ligaments stretch, bend and recover their original shape when relaxed, it's a flexible tissue

If Muscles stretch, bend and recover their original shape when relaxed, it's a flexible tissue

If Lizard lips can bend and recover their original shape when relaxed, what do you think that is?

[charred hearth]

agmes i feel like your putting words into others mouths when those words never exited from their mouths

[queen oar]

How? His entire point, is that Lips do not inherently imply that it's composed of flexible tissues, when majority of the evidence just suggests otherwise. Like, he isn't being aggressive with this point, alright? But, I think that he does not understand what he himself tried to claim.

[warped peak]

The majority of lips are flexible yes. That does not mean it is how lips are classified

Platypus for example.

[mental cloak]

Im goin crazy

[charred hearth]

has this lip arguement got anywhere

[queen oar]

Nah.

[charred hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/stan-twitter-nurse-britney-12-hours-after-my-shift-confused-nurse-gif-8510731316571023365

[warped peak]

No, which is why I am trying to move to a new topic

Behold. LEAKEYORNIS

[mental cloak]

Oh dead flamingo

[warped peak]

Been looking into flamingo evolution. Its weird.

[queen oar]

lmao, I bring Hesperonychus

[charred hearth]

did any flamingo relatives live in spain?

[mental cloak]

I mean
To how their beak is
I think their entire evolution is weird

[warped peak]

They appear to have originally been insect focused waterfowl that slowly focused on aquatic "insects" (shrimp)

[mental cloak]

Ohh i see

[charred hearth]

so like, what do shrimp count as? are they insects?

[warped peak]

Technically insects are shrimp

[mental cloak]

Shrimp are indeed..insects ans vise versa
As far as i know

[warped peak]

Insects are a family of terrestrial crustaceans, like Crabs

[elfin pulsar]

Fancy for bug

[mental cloak]

They also fly

Insects are just expensive and fancy shrimps

[warped peak]

Indeed, they fly with modified attachments to their legs

Basically bug wings are wacky gills

[mental cloak]

Yeah
They fly with their veins

[tawdry lintel]

Any Spinosaur updates ? I recently saw some posts about Spino being actually bigger than previously speculated and about their spines being higher and longer so their tails would look like spikes rather than a tadpole's but I cant find them again and cant tell if they had much evidences

[warped peak]

Nah. Nothing on that

[charred hearth]

thoughts?

[mental cloak]

Oh Damn

[warped peak]

Seems reasonable to me

[charred hearth]

did anyone truly care about asiatyrannus? atleast nanotyrannus had shooters since day 1

[mental cloak]

Tbh never heard of it💀

Also quite of a generic name

[tawdry lintel]

Damn, I thought it was really cool in case it was true

[warped peak]

Biologically speaking it wouldn't make much sense. If it needed to do that, it'd be easier to use modified scales to do so. Reducing the overall tissue of the tail would reduce its efficiency as a paddle

[mental cloak]

Meh idk
Seems redundant

[obsidian tangle]

Who tf is asiatyrannus? I’m keeping my Nanotyrannus thank you very much, we just got it back

[charred hearth]

nobody because its tarbo now

[obsidian tangle]

Good