paleontology

[fossil ingot]

The Meg in the 2nd Pic is on a Threatened Pose
Which is why he like that

[coral forge]

theres so many komodo dragon megs but have there been any reconstructions based on perenties?

[fossil ingot]

Pictures and Stuff no that I have seen
From POT Itself, PT Meg is based more on Perentie Meg than Komodo Meg, Not as Skinny as Perentie but its more based on it

[opal acorn]

ah

[fossil ingot]

The Threathened Pose in question

[hardy sentinel]

Ragebait?

[opal acorn]

also another question, would patagotitan fit into the game as a official playable? (titan is upsized in this game to be around giga height if that helps compare the sizes)

patagotitan lived with tyrannotitan and likely got hunted by it prob. maybe not healthy adult patagotitans tho, unless the tyrannotitan decided to gang up on adults, but for game balancing itd probably be fine as the first official 6 slot prob. or the tankiest 5 slot

[fossil ingot]

I mean, Titan Needed an Upsize
It already looks like thid next to Spino and Rex
Now imagine POT Rex and Spino xd

Titan is around 13-13.2m ingame
Which is about. A 1.4-1.6m Upsize
But its an Okeyish one

[opal acorn]

oh yeah i forgot they upsized rex so much too. isnt PT rex the size of sue? and it still looks small to alderon rex

[fossil ingot]

I also Feel Patato is to Big.
Hell even Apato feels to Big sometimes.
Maybe Diplo Works, given is similar wise to Apato but is visually smaller due to its Bulk

[charred hearth]

is PoT ano anky sized

[opal acorn]

yeah

-# i could be wrong but everyone else ive seen answer said yes

[fossil ingot]

PT Rex is the Size of Sue without Cartilage.
POT Rex Size is Closer to that of a "Goliath" Estimate
So is TECHNICALLY the least upsized Apex Lol
The Sue here is Taller than PT Rex by like 10cm at the Hip

[fossil ingot]

Pretty much
Yeah

[opal acorn]

i think eotrike is the most upsized apex

i heard eotrike got a downsize to be way smaller, but around the time alderon released it, it was considered accurately larger than triceratops

[fossil ingot]

The Biggest Upsize is Between Eo and Bars Yeah
Prob Eo cause irl Eo is about 7m and POT Eo is Prob around 9-10m lol

[opal acorn]

how large would accurate eo size even be in the roster. i forgot how smaller it is now

alberta sized?

[fossil ingot]

Ehh
Have you seen KTO Pachyrino?
About that size

[fluid inlet]

And it isn’t a issue lad

[opal acorn]

ohh okay thats not as small as i thought

[fossil ingot]

Tho idk if KTO Pachyrino is upsized
Given Alberta and Big Pachyrino aren't THAT off in size

[opal acorn]

they never said it is, i think its fine because it helps alderon fill out the niche they want the playables to fill. though idk why they didnt just use ones that are actually that size instead of using ones that arent the size and then upsizing them

[fluid inlet]

Oh I agree funny thing is there was a vote for trike or EO and the majority picked trike but EO still won lol

[opal acorn]

yeah i remember those votes, almost forgot about it

[fossil ingot]

If we had uses Accurate Sizes
Sarco would had become a 3 slot LOL

[opal acorn]

kto doesnt use innacurate sizes im pretty sure

kto deino is an exception because they are aware its not accurately that size anymore, and they plan on downsizing it to be accurate

[fluid inlet]

Ok lad

[fossil ingot]

I mean
Tmk it may be very slightly upsize iirc
The Drumheller Specimen isn't THAT much Larger than Alberta

Also Sergi said Deino is getting accurate Proportions, not a Proper Downsize
Proportions may make it Holf 1 meter or half a Meter but size will remain the same overall

[fossil ingot]

Pholidosauridae Cunning...

[fossil ingot]

Bro had said two different things smh

[fluid inlet]

Is that the overly large one , hated that Deinosuchus

[white matrix]

pretty sure sue is getting a size increase

[opal acorn]

kto is the more "stiff" one, db is the "jello" one with the weird bite and eating sounds (no hate but its sounds are weird)

[fluid inlet]

I just know there was one that was perfect size and then the other one was just too big

[opal acorn]

db deino was WAY oversized previously then got downsized to be the size of kto deino.

kto is the one we're talking about thatll get a downsize

[fossil ingot]

Db Deino even after downsize was bigger than KTO

[fluid inlet]

KTO size is fine they should leave it alone,

[opal acorn]

they want it to be more accurately sized

[scenic flame]

accuracy wise? no, that's why sergi wants to change it

[fossil ingot]

They will keep it Bigger than Sarco lol
Just not THAT much bigger and now will be Booblehead

Sarco seemingly got a very small downsize anyways.
So Deino getting one isn't Crazy

[opal acorn]

yeah id assume itll be bigger than sarco still

[fossil ingot]

Do we know how much Sergi will downsize it?

[opal acorn]

not the best photo of sarcos new & old size but its all i got

[scenic flame]

idk

[white matrix]

perspective makes a huge differenc

[opal acorn]

yeah

the 2nd photo is a bit off on the perspective and seems rushed but its somewhat good enough

[fossil ingot]

Yeah.
Thats why PT Puru is 12.5m(God I love Puru)

[opal acorn]

hopefully pt puru doesnt look so derpy upon release but i can deal with it, especially since sarco looks derpy from some angles

-# now that i mention sarco looking goofy from some angles, maybe thats also why pt puru looks silly on the face

[fossil ingot]

Nah
This is just
Crocodilian Moment

[coral forge]

they've stopped glazing spinosaurus but at what cost...

[jagged trellis]

thats gotta be bait

[coral forge]

most of the time it isn't sadly

[small geyser]

Could've used a better Alberto at least.

[coral forge]

I also saw someone say acro beats giga because "giga relied on packs for hunting and couldn't do much solo but acro could hunt sauropods on its own"

I feel like the only theropods that realistically beat spino are rex, giga, carch, mapu, mcraeensis and mabye tarbo and tauro
I might be overestimating spino a little bit idk, but I feel like most theropods arent really beating another who is 2+ tons bigger than them

[jagged trellis]

guys the 80 pound brown hyena beats a 130 pound grey wolf because its solo!!!!!

[coral forge]

stoat solos an orca because orcas rely on pack hunting and therefore cant do anything on their own but stoats are solo hunters so they have the clear advantage in a 1v1

[jagged trellis]

we need a low quality edit with phonk music and seizure amounts of flashing lights for this on tik tok!!!!!

[coral forge]

sinosauropteryx solos shant because shant lived in large herds and was therefore defenseless when on its own

I feel like people are vastly overestimating acro now that the paluxy river trackway has become tiktok knowledge
Im gonna search "acrocanthosaurus" on tiktok and see how long it takes for someone to overestimate it

its not even showing any acro vids 💔

[little mauve]

AvA is for morons, completely meaningless and uninteresting discussion 99.999% of the time

[wind prairie]

if it's something that may have actually happened I reckon it's a bit more valid
I do wonder what happened with these two cause stego is bigger but I figure it wouldn't take many bites to the head to take out a stego

[hallow spear]

If you can bite the head that is, it’s also quite an adjustment for animals that are used to coming from behind to suddenly realise that’s a very bad option

[wind prairie]

true I did not consider that
I wonder if its predators really thought about that, and how easily they could adapt

[compact leaf]

considering how many things in the morrison are a terrible idea to approach from behind, I feel like any smart allosaurus would learn fast

granted a lot of those things are also just a terrible idea to approach at all

[coral forge]

Most of them are a terrible idea to approach from any direction if you aren't an allosauroid and even then it still isn't very smart

I just realised allosauria is literally just carcharodontosaurids + allosaurus now that epanterias and saurophaganax (as a theropod) are invalid

actually why is allosauridae still a thing if its only 1 genus
can't a branch on a phylogenetic tree only split into 2 branches not 1 or 3 meaning a family cant have only 1 genus?

[outer tusk]

WE love allosaurus

[coral forge]

someone on tiktok just told me this is an accurate sized rex and that they arent oversizing it to make allo look tiny 💔

[coral forge]

the first dinosaur i ever drew was based on this pic or at least a very similar one

[outer tusk]

YO that's a good drawing

[coral forge]

Thanks, I was obsessed with drawing allos after that for some reason (ignore the foot i still cant draw limbs to this day)

(also ignore the ikea my friend told me to add it)

[ionic crescent]

Would you say it would be a good pivoter to cover it's head?

Applying to most stegosaurids

[hallow spear]

They would be a good pivoters yeah this is backed up by musculature studies as well as some old literature I CANNOT FIND AGAIN!!!

[ionic crescent]

It happens don't worry

[hallow spear]

Pivoting is also required for a means of attack with the tail

[winter marsh]

I wonder if any theropod used their tails like whips to disorient their prey

[stiff osprey]

their prey? none. possible predators? maybe

[hallow spear]

Now now, herbivores are not obligated to herbivory… much like the feeble horse eating a chick… this is evidence they do have prey

[compact leaf]

allosaurus’ tail whip was its only defense against the crushing jaws of camarasaurus

[hallow spear]

Indeed, I’m glad you understand true paleontology

[compact leaf]

to answer this because I didn’t see it earlier, depending on how a tree resolves a family can have just one genus (it actually happens a lot in modern animals)

[native kindle]

kto rhino is upsized slightly lol

[frigid delta]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacentrurus

[opal acorn]

oh mb, assumed it was fully accurate

slightly upsized is still fine tho ig

[outer tusk]

anyone got a good chasmosaurus skeletal?

[severe trail]

Ok? Literally says its type species not a dinosaur

[stark roost]

Isn’t like asflaltovenator somewhere there to

[frigid delta]

your ragebait is weak, train more you novice

[winter marsh]

I swear that is not ragebait its noob bait I swear

[frigid delta]

extremely true

[charred hearth]

do we know how large the lagoon in jw was?

i dont know, i feel like it should be considered animal abuse to stuff a large marine animal in something like that

[winter marsh]

pretty big (or at least deep) considering JWFK opening

[fluid inlet]

same era galli and joaquin , totally legit

[frigid delta]

Therizinosaurus claws
weak at stabbing but still strong at slashing/slapping?

[winter marsh]

I think its the other way around

[queen vortex]

I’m pretty sure therezinosaurus claws are weak at stabbing, the claws are used for picking berries so the claws are fragile BUT the therezinosaurus CAN slash

[charred hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/tyrannosaurus-trex-fighting-dinosaur-gif-17293452

[queen vortex]

FAH

[white matrix]

@hallow spear @ionic crescent
muscle attachments on their shoulders, the way they can place weight on them and the shape of their front feet. yeah idk where to find it

[charred hearth]

is it true large hadrosaurs wouldnt run bipedally like smaller ones?

[white matrix]

a 1 meter thagomizer piercing your skull is also a death sentence

[white matrix]

I mean whats the point, their legs front legs are stronger and longer proportionally and their shoulders girdles can handle the stress

[charred hearth]

i just dont see how running quad would be faster for them

[white matrix]

theres a study running on all 4 was faster, dont remember where to find ut

[thorn grove]

That study assumed galloping as the method of quadrupedal locomotion though, which requires a period where all legs are off the ground and is therefore improbable for even typically sized Hadrosaurs let alone the largest species

@charred hearth I don't know if there's study on how Hadrosaur locomotion would vary by size but even ~15 meter Hadrosaurs would have been capable of bipedal locomotion, whether that translates to them specifically running bipedally I don't know but if they were capable of it it would probably have been faster

[charred hearth]

@ashen prawn

[ashen prawn]

@charred hearth

[charred hearth]

what?

[ashen prawn]

Larges hadros speed walk or something not gallop

[charred hearth]

well read what he said

[coral forge]

basal allosauroid

[undone rapids]

Metris are also there and maybe piatnitzkysaurids

[coral forge]

arent they allosauroids but not allosaurians

I thought allosauria was just allosauridae + carcharodontosauridae

[hardy sentinel]

Just in case anyone forgot, you can feel your vocal cords when you talk

[coral forge]

I would sure hope i could feel my body vibrating or else id be pretty worried

[coral forge]

its better than 9 ton sauropod dacentrurus ig

[stark roost]

Oh yea

[ancient crystal]

He's ragebaiting I'm pretty sure

[manic grail]

pull up that video of a hadrosaur hunting a pack of trexes

[frigid delta]

would Protoceratops has quills?

[coral forge]

top 10 largest hadrosaurs (including X-Rex) vs every tyrannosaurid (10v23) who wins

[coral forge]

I mean most tyrannosaurids arent too big compared to the largest hadrosaurs
the average tyrannosaurid is less than 3 tons but the average of the 10 largest hadrosaurs is 9.3 tons so I feel like the tyrannosaurins would have to carry for a lot of it but im not sure if they'd be able to take all 10

its a range of 6600-19200kg vs a range of 50-11500kg

[fossil ingot]

Avergage of the 10 largest hadros?
Hadro's Average is only that Big due to Shant Alone
Edmonto Averages in like 6t and so seems the Rest
Where is the 9.3t average from?

[coral forge]

including X-Rex
as in the largest specimen from the 10 largest hadrosaurs

[fossil ingot]

X-Rex is 13-14t Tons

[coral forge]

19.2t shant
13.3t edmont
10t magna
8.1t charono
7.9t saurolophus
7.9t prosaurolophus
6.9t kritosaurini
6.6t para
6.6t saurolophinae
6.4t amuro

[white matrix]

how'd you get so high for shant?

[fossil ingot]

Why use Average Tyrannodaurid as a whole but only the 10 largest Hadros
Sure Hadros are on average Bigger but like, thats kinda their only thing going for them

[coral forge]

because if it was the largest for every tyrannosaurid it wouldn't be fair at all

[charred hearth]

agenda posting

[fossil ingot]

Rex alone is already Hunting all those in a 1v1😭 at max size

[coral forge]

good thing it isnt a 1v1

[fossil ingot]

Its based on a Femur tmk.
Basically the Goliath of Hadros

[white matrix]

the 220cm?

[fossil ingot]

Tbh.
The Moment Hadro's are seeing this Mf they are running away
Zucheng is Pretty Big itself too and using Suecheng can likely bring Flashbacks to Shant

[manic grail]

i believe that hadrosaurs hunted tyrannosaurids because i saw a video of a cow eating a bird

[fossil ingot]

Think so...

Size may be a factor, But Predators hunting Prey Largee than Themselves is common so.
I wouldn't be surprise Dasp and Gorgo are able to hunt a Para if both are max size
Tarbo too

[coral forge]

its based off a 1850mm femur apparently

[fossil ingot]

Even without the Femur, Shant is still heavier than X-Rex anyways

[coral forge]

goliath is NOT an average rex 💔

[fossil ingot]

I mean.
If you use Max Size(and Femur based guys)
What Stops me from using Max

[coral forge]

because i specifically stated largest hadros vs average tyrannosaurs to make it slightly less of a slaughter

[ancient crystal]

I don't think that makes it fair

[fossil ingot]

I mean
How is that fair lol.
Just use Average of Both LOL.
Hadro's are likely still larger on average thx to Shant

[coral forge]

I mean i dont really think using largest tyrannosaurs is gonna increase the average by 3x

removing shant drops the hadro average by 1.1t

[fossil ingot]

It doesn't.
But it Brings a 12.1t Rex ti the Table
A Possibly 8-10t Zucheng
And if you wanna go Crazy
A 7t Tarbo based on Private Collection

[coral forge]

then it also brings a 30t lambeo (i have 4000mm femur in my basement)

[white matrix]

185 is too small to scale to 19

iirc that one was around 15

[coral forge]

idk much about it all ik is that it was 16 but got scaled up to 19 somehow
I'll see if I can find more about it

[ancient crystal]

Tyrannosaurs win because carnivores are cooler and stronger than herbivores

[white matrix]

did the use a standing length to scale?
I actually use the same skeletal to make mine, I'll scale it in a bit

[charred hearth]

" are they lovers or friends? " something worse / POSITIVE

i fumbled this joke, what i meant was a refrence to the meme " are they lovers or are they friends " and its like " a secret third thing thats worse "

[ashen wedge]

X-Rex? Is that a new heavy Rex specimen?

[charred hearth]

has denversaurus appaered in any paleo-media? i feel like its the only megafuana of hellcreek thats appeared in nothing

[fossil ingot]

X-Rex is the name of the Largest Edmonto
Or that is likely edmonto

[manic grail]

i love poposaurus

[charred hearth]

POOPOO-saurus

[manic grail]

https://tenor.com/view/transformers-sentinel-optimus-prime-optimus-prime-gif-26529362

[charred hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-sun-moon-rowlet-explosion-gif-5476861

[manic grail]

https://tenor.com/view/chick-bird-cute-gif-23265882

[fossil ingot]

Yeah which is fine
Otherwise would be rather close to Alberta's Size

[charred hearth]

which species was kto pachyrhino based off? the base one

[coral forge]

what's the subspecies name

[fossil ingot]

Tmk
Canadensis

The Drumheller Specimen

[thorn grove]

You'll know more about the actual 3D modelling process than me but Femur No. 1 (measuring 180.5 cm) has been the 19+ ton Shant for several years now tmk

a 220 cm femur would scale to 35 tons

[brave nova]

I scaled that Shant abit too big,

Here’s the correct one

[fossil ingot]

Goliath Peaks

[charred hearth]

how do we feel about this being the reason on why dinosaurs are dying across the globe in jwr?

[white matrix]

I thought it was downsized to 16 last year?

[thorn grove]

If it was I heard nothing of it, I can take a look though

[white matrix]

what density did you use for it btw? I forgot to scale it but I'll do it once I get off work

also I meant 200 cm not 220@thorn grove
iirc the 200 cm was mentioned in the paper describing the 180.5 cm femur

[thorn grove]

fishy and random had a discussion around shant like a month ago and didn't seem to think the 19 t estimate had been downsized and I tend to just assume they'd be on top of stuff like that so afaik it's still valid

A 200 cm femur isn't mentioned in Hu et al. 1973, the first mention of it I know of comes from Brett Surman 1989 which I'll link in a bit. It's a bit confusing in how it references the femur but it states the following: "Shantungosaurus is the largest known hadrosaurid and approaches sauropods in size. According to Hu (1973), the type specimen (IVPP, no number given) is a composite of "middle-sized" individuals. The femur from the figured specimen measures 1850 mm in length. (The largest referred femur is 2000 mm long.)"

If you reference Hu 1973 however, it states that the composite specimen has a 1650 mm long femur and that same number is actually referenced in Surman 1989 in a table comparing Hadrosaurid dimensions. Based on that my assumption is that this 1850 mm number is for the same 1650 mm femur used by the composite but determined by an alternate and atypical measurement method (I.E. along the curves). Accordingly the 2000 mm femur referenced here is probably just the 180.5 cm femur described in Hu 1973 but measured using that same alternate method.

Surman 1989: https://repository.si.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/894a7156-4f05-4f2b-9a97-fc09b0e039cf/content

[white matrix]

thanks

was asking because when I mentioned 19.2 shant people were like "that size is outdated and composite"

[coral forge]

Makes absolutely 0 sense because the novel literally says the dinosaurs can change their gender and the movie says they can reproduce asexually

[hardy sentinel]

New Spino Skeletal dropped guys

[charred hearth]

whats the point of changing your gneder if yuou can reproduce asexually

[still prairie]

Esp since its probs more like komodo dragons who make only male offspring compared to some pythons who make only females

[low raven]

Also in the films Buck was a female one of the original female Rexes bred and he ended up as male also according to the JW mobile game Bull was also one of the original batch

[thorn grove]

Lmk what you find when you scale your model but a size of ~15 t for the 180.5 seems attainable either using Edmonto dimensions (which is not robust enough for Shantungosaurus) or using femur length mass regression models (which isn't volumetric so idk why it would have bearing on the accuracy of GDIs) so it seems probable that that estimate is simply too low

[stiff osprey]

i'm starting to suspect that all shantungosaurus specimens are bonebed material and we should just scale off edmont

[charred hearth]

is there ever a world where we find a edmonto larger then shant

[thorn grove]

unlikely

[fluid inlet]

Go to scaling school

[ancient crystal]

JWE is not canon

[charred hearth]

while its not cannon, it can still be used to fill in the main story and give us explanations of things

[coral forge]

the movie changed a lot of things from the novel

[ancient crystal]

The movie also mentioned the dinosaurs changing sex.

The plot detail is nearly the exact same between the book and the movie.

[coral forge]

so the movie is stupid then because if they can reproduce asexually how are they all female shouldn't they not have sexes

[outer tusk]

Hey Random I frogot but what's usually the main issue when scaling or using bonebed speicmens?

[stiff osprey]

you can't know the proportions of a taxon if it's in a jumble of disarticulated bone, it functions the same as if every bone was from a different individual

[thorn grove]

tbf Shantungosaurus material is more robust than Edmontosaurus material but it definitely would call volumetric mass estimates into question

[balmy oyster]

I’m. Going to let you think about this one for a little bit, alright?

[coral forge]

what

[ancient crystal]

They didn't reproduce asexually, some of the females became males unbeknownst to the park staff

[coral forge]

you just said the movie mentions both though

[rancid dove]

I feel like Jurassic Park hates males

[ancient crystal]

You said that the movie changed a lot from the novel, I said the movie also said the dinosaurs changed sex in order to say that that detail was not changed

[coral forge]

but how can it be both
how can they change their sex if they dont have a sex
am I just being stupid because im tired or something

[ancient crystal]

They never didn't have a sex

[coral forge]

organisms that reproduce asexually dont have a sex meaning that according to the movie they changed their sex but they also never had a sex to begin with

[ancient crystal]

No, they were never asexual

[coral forge]

so the movie changed it from the book

[ancient crystal]

No, they were not asexual in the book

[thorn grove]

Speaking of Shantungosaurus, I think I've mentioned this once or twice before but I've noticed the apparent size distribution seems to be different between two of the quarries and I've struggled to find an explanation as to why that would be the case.

The Kogou quarry has a well established size distribution from Hone et. al 2014 with an average femur length of ~150 cm, but the Longgujian quarry has universally larger femora

Hu et. al 1973 describes femora of 160.5, 164.5, 165, 169, and 180.5 cm, Zhao et. al 2007 described two femora both measuring 170 cm. There's also a large number of other limb bone elements but cross checking with material from both the Longgujian and other Zhucheng quarries these all seem to correspond to individuals with femora measuring at least 160 cm and many correspond to far larger individuals. I haven't checked all of the other material cuz I'm lazy but the limb bone material at least seems to average over 10% larger than the Kogou quarry material by linear dimensions.

Furthermore when I read about the taphonomy of the two quarries it didn't provide any explanation either (I.E. size sorting); from Hone et. al 2014: "Liu et al. (2010) suggested that the main bonebeds in both the Kugou and Longgujian quarries were deposited by a debris flow that killed and immediately buried a herd of hadrosaurids, and Ji et al. (2011) proposed a similar scenario... The interpretation for the Kugou and Longgujian sites implies that these hadrosaurid taphocoenoses are the result of mass-mortality events, and that their compositions should closely reflect those of the corresponding biocoenoses."

I don't really know what to make of this, maybe I'm just tripping, but I genuinely can't explain this discrepancy unless maybe the papers are just leaving out a ton of smaller material from their descriptions.

[fluid inlet]

💀

[wind prairie]

do you guys think they would let him get away with that irl

[fallen leaf]

Fossil hunting today in Southeastern Alberta
Dinosaur Park Formation, any guesses as to what kind of tooth?

[ashen wedge]

I badly want to say Gorgosaurus or Dasp

[charred hearth]

in a zoo maybe

[manic grail]

Gorgosaurus is such a cool name

[wind prairie]

he just sits there and kills me with his tail

[ashen wedge]

What else are you suppose to do while you make sure that the allosaurus can no longer continue the bloodline

[wind prairie]

eerrrmmm actually
I think the reproductive organs of dinosaurs would be inside their lower back like birds, right?

[winter marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/freddy-freddy-fazbear-fnaf-surprise-bear-gif-10797545912537514262

[ashen ether]

I couldn’t imagine hearing embarrassing crotch shot if this was done in the halo announcer voice

[fluid inlet]

Little teeth would do nothing to me.

[ashen ether]

It looks like a raptor tooth due to its size but it could also be a shedded tooth of a tyrannosaur of some kind, maybe from a juvenile or a chick perhaps

[white matrix]

@thorn grove hope we find an articulated shant some day, kind of annoying having to use edmont for it
wasnt one small one found near south of Mongolia?

[thorn grove]

yea but idk if it was articulated I had trouble finding much info on it

also while Random made a good point about reconstructions being difficult to make accurately I wouldn't take just scaling from Edmonto at face value either since iirc Shantungosaurus was diagnosed as basically having material like E. regalis but both larger and more robust, the latter point indicating it's probably not just going to be the same weight as a scaled up Edmonto

[thorn grove]

For example here's a comparison of an Edmontosaurus humerus with some examples from Shantungosaurus, the latter being much more heavily built

[white matrix]

holy shoulder attachment...

[thorn grove]

yea fr lol

[white matrix]

shpuld we use a different density for them? holy they are beefy

[river plinth]

You sure it wasn't a baby?

[river plinth]

I just see it shoving the li guy to the floor immediately after 💀🤣

[thorn grove]

I'm comparing entire herds, not individual animals. Regardless Hone considers the Kogou quarry to be mostly adult individuals based on the presence of predominantly fully fused sacra

[thorn grove]

I wouldn't know but given the amount of muscle I wouldn't be too shocked

[warped peak]

That wouldn't be density tho

[thorn grove]

I mean isn't muscle kind of dense, but ig that would have a marginal effect at most

[white matrix]

I thought it accounted for potential muscle mass as well?

like you can't just slap the same muscle mass on every skeletal and call it a day

[stiff osprey]

while you're right that it probably wasn't proportioned like an average edmont, more robust limbs are the expected consequence of being bigger, not evidence that shant was more muscular

if we had the humerus of something like x-rex or becky's giant it would probably look intermediate between the average edmont and shant

[charred hearth]

do we know how potent a single jp compy's venom was?

actually, did the compy's have poison, venom or toxins?

[thorn grove]

That's basically the argument I was making, I understand that Shant wasn't just buffer for fun or anything but its size is going to make it so that it needs proportionately stronger bones as well as muscles to support that weight, which is going to throw off any attempt to just directly scale from Edmontosaurus

[white matrix]

thats true, hadrosaur also display this as they grow

[thorn grove]

@stiff osprey Also would you happen to have any ideas on this? Did I miss something?

[stiff osprey]

there probably are smaller individuals in the type quarry that just weren't described

it's also possible that the two quarries are a few thousand years apart and the species as a whole got larger between those times

[thorn grove]

they explicitly refer to their composite skeleton as being comprised of "medium sized individuals" and it has a 165 cm femur so I think that's the actual size range

[thorn grove]

cool I thought that might be the case but I thought it would be goofy cuz Kogou quarry shant is already insanely big

[ancient crystal]

Venom

[charred hearth]

how potent was it?

[ancient crystal]

I wouldn't call it potent because it takes a lot of compies to illicit a major reaction.

Iirc the little girl in the beginning of the book goes into shock (?) but survives and hammond, a frail old man described as not being much larger than a child doesn't even have that sort of reaction to the venom.

[ashen wedge]

It was like a sort of morphine effect, although in the Lost World (novel) Lewis was still able to feel pain when he was semi-induced in a temporary coma due to falling out of the car I believe

[charred hearth]

so if im right, the venom hierachy / power level in the jp universe is

compy -> troodon --> dilo --> scropious rex

i think dilo has venom?

compy - gila monster

troodoon - too me, seems like something like Cane toad

dilo - should be close to a spitting cobra's

scorpious rex - could take down a fully grown brachiosaurus and not a human child so idk?

[river plinth]

That thing probably was the Spanish bull equivalent to the hadrosaurs cows

[opaque island]

The rise and fall of dinosaurs is such a good book so far

👍

[manic grail]

Maybe scorpius rex' venom is more effective against dinosaurs and has a weaker effect on humans

[charred hearth]

first smart thing henry wu has ever done?

[plain spade]

Anyone know what was bigger, barsboldia or magnapaulia?

[charred hearth]

barsbolida reached 7.5 tons i believe? so i think mag

[fluid inlet]

Magnapaulia what kind of question is that lmao

[thorn grove]

Magnapaulia was larger although Bars having a sample size of one makes comparison a bit difficult tbf

[hallow spear]

i thin kits more liek 6-7t

[balmy oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/mason-67-6-7-scary-mason-masonexe-gif-9283433448103704264

[plain spade]

Yeah got it

[frigid delta]

is 11 meters long and 5.3 tons Suchomimus are accurate?

[stiff osprey]

12

[frigid delta]

oh wow so it's as long as Rex

[zealous ravine]

Sidormimus level DPC

[hardy sentinel]

Chat, I think Gigantopithecus was black in fur coloration instead of orange

Change my mind

[ancient crystal]

I think it was blue

[coral forge]

well the species name is blacki for a reason
-# nothing to do with honoring a dead person or anything

[coral forge]

who was faster, ornithomimids or small tyrannosaurs

[frigid delta]

betting on ornithomimids, sm genus like Gallimimus can reach speed to 64 km/h so i have no doubt on them

[coral forge]

yeah but then things like alectrosaurus are way faster than that so like idk

[frigid delta]

have we ever calculate Alectro's speed?

[coral forge]

I mean we have everything needed to

[undone rapids]

Just take speed formulas and such with a Tablespoon of salt

I tried this on carnotaurus(with Koloken Leg Proportions). if you estimate Carno's Weight 2001 kg or more then its 38.5 kph, if you estimate it as 1999 kg or less then its 51 kph. Lovely

[coral forge]

yeah obviously theyre not gonna be 100% accurate every single time but if 2 animals get a 20km/h difference, one is probably a lot faster
sue gets 16km/h with it and shant gets 32 so im not sure if it is 100% accurate

[undone rapids]

Hadrosaurs esp large ones like shant would've been quadrupeds I'm pretty sure, so idk if this formula would apply to them well. The rex estimate seems pretty close to what other methods get for big theropods

[coral forge]

it also says that I can run 40km/h meaning i could do a 100m sprint in 9 seconds flat which i doubt

[undone rapids]

You doubt it, but have you tried it?
Go get that world record

[coral forge]

Ive never actually timed myself but I am quite fast, definitely not Olympics level fast though

actually i gained weight since I last used the formula for myself so im in a different weight bracket now, I kinda wanna see what result I get now

its a little more believable

[white matrix]

bro

[brave nova]

Bars like 5.5t atm

[coral forge]

how come bars is 7th on that list when it should be 16th

[thorn grove]

That list is modified from earlier when bars was larger, they didn’t bother to change its location

[fossil ingot]

Cause before itbwss at 7-8t
But then gog updated to 5.5t
Just edited its weight

[coral forge]

there

[stiff osprey]

some animals out here having a length of 0

[tough parcel]

Actually they'd have a length of

[thorn grove]

undefined

[hallow spear]

Well that is how they work when they are weight based

[coral forge]

notice how half of them have lambeosaur in their name? That's because my goat lambeosaurus is so nonchalant and mysterious

also does acristavus even exist anymore I can't find a single skeletal for it

[daring plume]

I do not understand if dacentrurus was 8-9 meters or less. On each site it says different like 6-7 or 7-8 meters. I just wanna know if stegosaurus was the biggest stegosaurian or not.

Yes I know it's because of the missing Fossils but here's what I don't understand: If scientist discover a fossil of a dinosaur from a family that already has basically " the biggest dinosaur from that family" and is also complete to around 70% to 80% for atleast one species and we know the exact size of it, why when scientist find a new fossil and say " oh its from that family" assume is bigger+heavier than the biggest dinosaur that is also the most complete from that family. Why don't they say and assume it's smaller, later when finding more Fossils of the the dinosaur with missing bones/skull etc, actually confirming that it was Larger than the dinosaur that held the record for the biggest from it's family.

I don't know if this will be understood but I hate when scientist assume that Dacentrurus is bigger than stegosaurus when dacentrurus is having multiple missing fossils and stegosaurus is more complete than it. Atleast actually confirm later that it's bigger than stegosaurus when finding more fossils of Dacentrurus 🫩

💔

I wanna like dacentrurus but it's hard with the missing fossils

[white matrix]

the video doesn't reference 2 stegosaurus that are in the 7+ ton range btw
one is a tibia and another is something else i forgot
the tibia scales to 7.7-8.5 tons

[daring plume]

Took it off Google not a video

[daring plume]

So which one would be accurately more Larger+heavier

[white matrix]

this is that stego btw

[daring plume]

Is that stegosaurus ungulatus orrrr..?

[white matrix]

the holotype of stegosaurus is smaller than the holotype of dacentrurus(largest dacent basically) but the 2 biggest stegos are still bigger

[white matrix]

it isnt assigned to either, and from what I heard from derpystego ungulatus is a chimera

[daring plume]

SO WHICH IS IS THE LARGEST GIVE ME THE ANSWER OR I'LL EXPLODE

[white matrix]

I said just stego is bigger

[thorn grove]

tbf we can't really say since we only have the one Dacentrurus but yea Stego has larger known specimens

[daring plume]

And yet asking on Google saying that dacentrurus is the biggest from stegosauridae🫩💔 (even bigger than stegosaurus ungulatus/apex)

[thorn grove]

Google isn't a very reliable source for a lot of things, I wouldn't sweat too much over it

[daring plume]

Wait stegosaurus apex. How long is it

8.2 meters ?! Lord please make dacentrurus smaller with more discoveries 🙏

"No, Dacentrurus was likely bigger than the Stegosaurus specimen known as "Apex," with modern estimates placing Dacentrurus as the largest known stegosaur at 8–9 meters long and 5–7.4 metric tons, while the largest Stegosaurus specimen, Apex, was around 8.2 meters long and 6.3 metric tons. " 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 I'm so done bye 😞

[white matrix]

google isn't reliable, also apex isnt 8.2 meters
the stego I sent you is
apex is the biggest most COMPLETE stegosaurus,
not the biggest

[warped peak]

I do want to say that Stego anatomy is a mess so we honestly kind of have a better description of Miragaia than Stego right now

[white matrix]

not once apex and rally road specimens are described 🙏

[warped peak]

Hence the "right now"

[fossil ingot]

Dacen is Longer, Stego is Heavier
For Now

[manic grail]

W stego

[white matrix]

bro just said "fu" to ypm 1388
wouldn't 8.2 meters be longer?

wait dacent can go up to 9 my bad

is the reason pot's miragai is inaccurate because it uses the dacent/miragia chimera skeletal?

[stiff osprey]

did you mean pot's miragaia

because i'm pretty sure their miragaia is fine

[white matrix]

someone pointed out it was inaccurate, I don't really understand how it is

[hallow spear]

Not entirely, the hips for miragaia are not the same as Dacents, and they directly use dacents

[little mauve]

Awesome paper

[charred hearth]

would the animals of isla nublar experince island dwarfism or is the island big enough to house them ( if it was a normal ecosystem )

[coral forge]

How do you show that a genus is dubious when writing out the name? Do you just put it in quotations and then add a question mark?
for example "genus"?

[charred hearth]

" The island has a surface of 77 square kilometers with mountain ridges which created varied ecological niches. "

[thorn grove]

that's a rather small island so I would expect dwarfism over time

[coral forge]

or they could go the abelisaur route and become giant
mabye thats why the carno and majunga are so big in the franchise

[little mauve]

Insular dwarfism occurs on much larger islands than that, Hateg for example is estimated to be roughly the same size as Hispaniola - several tens of thousands of sq km

More likely is that Nublar would be far too small to support any population of any large animal for very long

[charred hearth]

whats it compareable too in like, modern day?

[manic grail]

a kitchen

[ashen wedge]

I present to you the Mammoth species that lasted a while on an island for a few more thousand years

[manic grail]

or dodos

[hardy sentinel]

Kiwi birds are an example of insular dwarfism

[ashen wedge]

Yes, although there were the Moa that were around up to the late Medieval Era

[hardy sentinel]

Island Gigantism

[ashen wedge]

There were some smaller Moa

[hardy sentinel]

The males?

The males were smaller than females, initially thought to be a different species

[ashen wedge]

Greater and Lesser Moa?

[hardy sentinel]

ah got the lesser moa confused for the species the males of the greater moa were thought to be

[ashen wedge]

No worries

[halcyon cobalt]

There were many moa species of a variety of sizes

[frigid delta]

who's bigger? Utah or Dilo?

[undone rapids]

Dilo

[little mauve]

Hateg like I said is compared to Hispaniola, the island the makes up Haiti & the Dominican Republic. Nublar is slightly smaller than Saint Martin

[plain spade]

Dilo, it got a size buff a little while ago so leaves Utah in the dust

[daring plume]

Ok so isn't size defined by heaviness? So does that mean stegosaurus is largest stegosaurian? Or was it dacentrurus because I don't know their exact size

[undone rapids]

Stego is usually considered heavier, around 8 tonnes for the biggest specimen.

[hallow spear]

Stego is longer and heavier at the largest specimen

[median swallow]

Is megalania really this size?

If so it would be terrifying af lol

[tough parcel]

No, that's way too large

[median swallow]

Oh lol

[cloud wedge]

[sharp nymph]

That would be horrifying to have either of them chase ya xd

[zealous ravine]

That Carno also seems a little small

[stiff osprey]

Who the hell estimated Carnotaurus at 500kg 😭

[white matrix]

💀💀💀

[balmy oyster]

David peters newfound baby carnotaurus specimen trust

[undone rapids]

Kolenken sized Carnotaurus!!!

[warped peak]

Tbf the fossil migh be 500kg

[wind prairie]

guys if we could have near perfect, borealopelta level of preservation mummies for 5 dinosaur groups, which would we choose?
Me: a therizinosaur, a megaraptoran, a noasaur, a pachycephalosaur, and idk what to choose for the last one. Might do a dupe on bahariyasaurus because I'd be willing to gamble if it's also a noasaur just to see what it is

[manic grail]

i'd choose spinosaurus first and its not even close

[balmy oyster]

Maraapunisaurus.
It would be funny

[vague citrus]

personally : abelisauridae (cuz i just love em), torvosaurus (yes, only torvo), ankylosauridae (cuz borealopelta is a nodosaur and i like ankys more), spinosauridae (its obvious why) and lastly dromaeosauridae (cuz they're all sick).

[wind prairie]

wasteful

now maraapuni THAT is a good idea, should've thought about that

[median swallow]

Ya true

[wind prairie]

I mean those are cool but don't you want to use it for something we barely know anything about

[undone rapids]

True.... all 5 should be abelisaurs

[little mauve]

We have some exceptionally well preserved coelurosaurs already... I would still try to knock out as many of the major groups as possible

So a sauropod, a marginocephalian, a theyreophoran, a tetanuran, & a large ceolurosaur of some kind

An ornithopod instead of the ceolurosaur actually

[coral forge]

fadeno's evil twin

[stiff osprey]

i agree with what bones said, basal titanosaur, pachycephalosaur, whatever jakapil is, spinosaurid, and whatever bahariasaurus is are my choices

[coral forge]

Lambeosaurus
Magnapaulia
Tetragonosaurus
Procheneosaurus
Stephanosaurus

aka lambeosaurus + formerly lambeosaurus x4

[stiff osprey]

this is the type of person who gets 3 wishes from a genie and asks for 3 hot dogs

[coral forge]

Im not stupid I would never do that

I would ask for 1 hot dog 3 times because then im getting hot dogs 3 times instead of just 1

[coral forge]

oh I would also wish the spinosaurini treatment to happen to corythosaurus

[wind prairie]

tbh I feel like a megaraptoran is essential

[coral forge]

in all seriousness id want oxalaia, any megaraptor, lambeosaurus or magnapaulia, any colososaur and a therizinosaur

[little mauve]

I'm as intrigued by megaraptorans as much as anyone but a full skeleton is all we need to fill in those gaps not necessarily a soft tissue mummy imo

[coral forge]

did I miss any hadrosaurs?

[hallow spear]

Why are you using E. annectens for E. regalis lol?..

[coral forge]

.

[sullen cairn]

i wonder where tiny horneri originates from

[wind prairie]

you forgot nanotyrannus

[balmy oyster]

Both y’all wrong tbh, you were right the first time with the allo’s

[hallow spear]

E. regalis has a lot fo material this isnt even comparable because anax is fragmentory

you seem to have msisunderstood me

[ancient crystal]

I'd leave nano off so that independent of people who think annectens is on average larger than rex, this image invites even more arguments

[coral forge]

I was told to do it for every dinosaur so like...
Alr gimme a sec
What about dasp? I used random's torosus for all 3

[hallow spear]

Im unfamiliar with the differences / similarities for dasp Here is a regalis skeletal though

[hallow spear]

No lol?

I was entirely correct in what i said about allo

Why the hell would you use a different skeletal of the same species to represent ANOTHER species of said genus???

[wind prairie]

well that's just straight up wrong. If there was an argument over that it just means they're ignorant.
Nano is valid though too and there's not much arguing against it so again anyone who argues with the evidence against them just doesn't care

you could at least put a nano with a question mark

[ancient crystal]

I am aware of this, but a lot of people believe annectens is larger than rex

[little mauve]

The nanotyrannus validity arguments I've had over the years.... like tears in the rain

[wind prairie]

that's what I'm saying it's not something actually believed from evidence it's a misconception. They just need to be shown the objective, known truth and if they somehow argue otherwise then they are just dumb, just ignore it

is there a nanotyrannus paper being worked on that will bring it to the public eye

[little mauve]

There's that hyoid thing from SVP

[coral forge]

there

[coral forge]

I was considering adding x-rex but I decided not to because then id have to add suecheng and stuff

the thing I love about it is how it shows that rex vs annectens is actually probably the most in favour of the tyrannosaur out of any of the matchups yet people only comment on edmont easily beating rex

[sullen cairn]

i want to believe...

[coral forge]

what kind of name is "UGRUNAALUK" 😭

[little mauve]

Big enough to grab the neck = bye bye hadrosaur

[coral forge]

bagaraatan vs saurolophus is the most fair tyrannosaur vs contemporary hadrosaur imo

I'm using that exact skull model for a school project

[crystal dock]

Who's this?

[wind prairie]

the face of an animal that definitely had generational beef with young t rex and ornithomimosaurs

[wind prairie]

the N word

[crystal dock]

Nanotyrannus

[wind prairie]

CENSOR THAT AAAAGhHhh wth we might have underage rexes in the server

[coral forge]

thats what the project is about too

I was originally doing it on theropod anatomy but narrowed it down to theropod skull anatomy but narrowed it down to t.rex skull anatomy but then my teacher said the normies know nothing about that so she made me just do it on t.rex ecology 💔

[wind prairie]

oof lol
still cool though

[coral forge]

yeah, i just need to figure out how to simplify everything considering im the only person in my year who can name more than 10 dinosaurs and more than 0 formations

[little mauve]

Good science communication challenge for you, assume normies know nothing

[coral forge]

no but like they genuinely know nothing
I tried to describe a theropod as "a 3 toed bipedal dinosaur" and they didnt know what bipedal meant
and when I tried to give examples they didn't know what velociraptor was 💔

[balmy oyster]

Are you at a preschool

[little mauve]

Exactly, that's the challenge of being a teacher. It's a noble one

[wind prairie]

honestly not knowing what velociraptor is is probably worse than not knowing what bipedal means lol

[coral forge]

Sometimes it feels like it
Last year my 16 year old classmate cried when asked what photosynthesis is

[balmy oyster]

That might just be trauma

[wind prairie]

just on the way the general public is conditioned. The name velociraptor is made famous by movies, even a grandma probably at least knows that name is something her grandkid loves
most people would just call bipedal/quadrupedal "two legs or four legs"

[little mauve]

Humans are practical, and no one has any practical reason to know the word bipedal. Give them a reason

[balmy oyster]

Funny dog running on 2 legs

[wind prairie]

in most cases of them doing that it's because the owner beats them into submission to do it

[coral forge]

the edmontosaurus seeing the t.rex come tip toeing at it from the bushes

[undone rapids]

Just say "Bird with Less Feathers"

[coral forge]

but then that sounds like im saying all dinosaurs are birds which is already a common misconception

[balmy oyster]

Me beating my 7 foot tall velociraptor to slither around on its tail like that one deleted scene of shin Godzilla

[wind prairie]

I've only heard that like.. one or two times though??

[balmy oyster]

Download Instagram

[coral forge]

ive heard it like 3 times this month in person
not to mention the amount of times I see it on social media

[wind prairie]

yeesh
honestly that might be a better misconception than just shunning the idea that birds have any connection to dinosaurs, let alone reptiles at all. Because at least those people are willing to accept that "dinosaurs are birds" (even if they're not) which obv doesn't sound very cool but it means they at least know that isn't what matters

[little mauve]

Make a point that crocs are birds closest living relatives then introduce dinosauria as a intermediate group between them

[opaque kayak]

Probably a sauropod, Carch, Noasaur, Spinosaurid, Megaraptoridae

[little mauve]

Honestly sci-comm is a huge challenge in and of itself because it's not in anyone's interest to actually know this stuff. You have to make it relatable, inspiring, & real

[balmy oyster]

“All birds are dinosaurs, but not all dinosaurs are birds.”

[crystal dock]

All animals are animals but not all animals are pickles

[coral forge]

the most effective way of describing dinosaurs to people who know nothing about them ive found is "lizard bird that isn't a lizard or a bird"

[balmy oyster]

This is correct

[little mauve]

Crocs are more instructive vs lizards but in general not a bad analogy

[coral forge]

most people think crocs are lizards so like

apparently i said a bad word 2 minutes ago
oh right I said our own genus name 💔

[ancient crystal]

Censoring h0mo is human erasure

[little mauve]

Make the distinction between crocs and lizards, hell include varanids for their unique adaptations compared to the rest of squamata

Show that a highly aerobic four chambered archosaur was in the mix from very early on

[balmy oyster]

These people don’t even know what bipedal means dude.

[little mauve]

They don't need to, holistic knowledge is more important than minutae

They need to understand that this was a parallel but wholly alternative large animal ecology to what we see with mammals

[coral forge]

for them id have to say

big lizard different to small lizard
crocodile different to all lizard

[little mauve]

There ya go lol like I said it's not easy. Wish ya luck

[charred hearth]

i dont feel like not enough people talk about dilo's closest relative Chlamydosaurus sputori

[balmy oyster]

My favorite dinosaur, STD spouting

[charred hearth]

blame John Sayles for naming it that

[manic grail]

https://tenor.com/view/transformers-sentinel-optimus-prime-optimus-prime-gif-26529362

[balmy oyster]

Would a maraa mummy not be the most ironically funny thing ever

[warped peak]

Wouldn't that be almost the largest possible mummy

[balmy oyster]

Mummy Kallamedu giant…

[stiff osprey]

the blue whale mummy

[balmy oyster]

Hector’s ichthyosaur mummy

[little mauve]

What about the tiniest mummy

[balmy oyster]

Tardigrade “mummy” (it slept for 279 million years but then someone across the room sneezed and it instantly dies)

[coral forge]

rhyniognatha mummy so we can figure out what the hell it is

rhyniognatha gotta be the most oversized ark creature

2mm irl vs 16m ingame
over 8,000x the length

nvm its 20m ingame meaning it's over 9000x the size of irl rhynio

[native kindle]

gotta be the best flavor of bugs

[wind prairie]

you when I don't want to use my wish for a mummy of an animal we already have an almost complete if not totally complete skeleton of

[winter marsh]

a badass mummy would be a Laelaps one

[little mauve]

Would take an even remotely complete skeleton at this point of dryptosaurus

[wind prairie]

true

[hazy basalt]

can anybody point me in the direction of any evidence that Quetzalcoatlus Lawsoni's bill was actually upturned like this?

cause all I could find was a 2021 paper saying that the bill was straight unlike in this art made by dino dan.

[balmy oyster]

Lancian deciding to do it for some apparent reason

[coral forge]

I just realised I forgot albertosaurus and now I have to edit all of the numbers

[warped peak]

False, this honor falls to either Gasbags or Cnidaria

[coral forge]

gasbags are based on a real animal?

[warped peak]

They use the name of an IRL tardigrade genus on the dossier

Also this seems to follow curvature of the mandible

[coral forge]

also you could argue for cnidaria being undersized since cnidaria is an entire phylum not just a species
they look like giant box jellyfish though so id say theyre quite oversized, just not 800,000% oversized

[warped peak]

That was my argument. Depends on what cnidarian they represent

[coral forge]

the smallest jellyfish is only 1500x shorter than the largest of the ark cnidaria so still a considerably smaller gap than rhynio

if you wanted an accurate comparison of ark rhinio and real rhynio where the irl rhynio is 1 pixel, even an 8K monitor would be too small

[wind prairie]

also this lol

[winter marsh]

funi

[stiff osprey]

a gently s curved beak is a synapomorphy of q.lawsoni

[tough parcel]

The fossils when laid out indicate the beak had an upturn

Idk what 2021 paper you're looking at but- what Random said

[charred hearth]

do we have pterosaurs that would fill the niche of hawks?

[stiff osprey]

no, although avisaurids seem to have been doing something similar by the end cretaceous

[warped peak]

Average bird moment

[charred hearth]

this will be a extremely stupid question but what makes a Avisauridae different from a bird?

[stiff osprey]

they are birds in the broad sense (avialans)

[charred hearth]

the same way that austroraptor is a bird?

[stiff osprey]

yes, except unlike austroraptor they have always been in avialae

they differ from birds in the narrow sense (aves) in that the shoulder joint is reversed, in having teeth, and i'm sure other stuff i'd need to read 50 bird papers to understand

[compact leaf]

how solid is the whole unenlagidae being in avialae thing?

[charred hearth]

austro is the third largest avialan right? i believe the giant moa is largest then it

[stiff osprey]

dromornis, elephant birds, and brontornis are all prob larger than it

[warped peak]

Pachystruthio potentially

[wind prairie]

that's a huge reach imo but I'm not trying to have another "what is a bird" convo

[stiff osprey]

if your definition of bird is below avialae then you believe archaeopteryx is not a bird, and thus you are ontologically evil

[charred hearth]

how is that a huge reach

[warped peak]

It looked like a bird, it acted like a bird, it lived like a bird, it is closely related to birds, that's a bird

[wind prairie]

archaeopteryx isn't even an avialan though?-
or did something change

also I got no problem with calling enantiornithines birds I just mentioned it cause you said avialae in general

[stiff osprey]

it was an avialan up until like 2017 but nowadays wikipedia puts it at the base of paraves, guess i missed something

[wind prairie]

archaeopteryx honestly isn't bird shaped enough for me to call it one

[stiff osprey]

okay wow austroraptor being more of a bird than archaeopteryx is a trip

[wind prairie]

fr lol (assuming the unenlagiine/unenlagiid phylogeny will just sit still for once)

[little mauve]

Feathers define birddom, ergo anything with feathers is a bird

[stiff osprey]

if anything with feathers is a bird, and birds are dinosaurs, then pteranodon is a dinosaur

[native kindle]

they were right all along..

[light osprey]

Less about the solidity of the claim more that there are different ideas of where it can fit in Paraves and nothing is set in stone.

[little mauve]

Thats right

Better than avemetatarsalia or ornithodiran or whatever. They're all dinosaurs and also birds

[iron halo]

i support this new grouping

[little mauve]

Look at that social, feathered, beaked, flying creature. Is it a bird? No it has slightly different ankles

[manic grail]

Wait austroraptor is a bird?

[warm saddle]

Not a true aves but closer than any dromeosaurid (atleast i think)

[manic grail]

hmm so its still considered dromaeosaurid?

[warm saddle]

Maybe?...idk unenlagid flip flops ipin n out of dromeosaurid

[charred hearth]

theroretically, what would be the most possible jurassic world hybrid? ( visually speaking )

[winter marsh]

rexy cuz frog + trex

[thorn grove]

If the new Avialan placement is true it would be out of Dromaeosauridae

[balmy oyster]

Most realistic would be d rex because it would be a horrific mutated nightmare that will only feel pain

[charred hearth]

i mean, i feel like spinoraptor would be very realistic, we have other carnivores that have devolped a back acessory ( ie conc ) so i guess a sail shouldnt be too weird

[eager current]

Stegoraptor

[charred hearth]

would such a large dinosaur like paraursolophus be able to survive in the wild if it was bioluminscent?

How accurate is this edmonto's run?

[thorn grove]

plausible but probably a bit slower than a bipedal run

one study did find Hadrosaurs being faster quadrupedally but it required a galloping motion which that animation very much isn't

[ancient crystal]

Probably, but like an albino animal in the wild, it would be worse off

[stark roost]

What’s the earliest sign of clothing in homowhatevers

[white matrix]

proportions are strange for edmontosaurus

[balmy oyster]

Why are we sleeping on this

[coral forge]

what hadrosaurs lived with albertosaurus? All I've seen is E. Regalis but I've also seen stuff saying it didnt live with any hadrosaur

[fluid inlet]

they only care about t rex

[coral forge]

t.rex, mosasaurus and Quetzalcoatlus are the only hell creek carnivores that are allowed to get media representation

[balmy oyster]

Triceratops

[zealous ravine]

It's being actively described lol

[coral forge]

ts is not tiktok get carnivorous trike outta bere

[balmy oyster]

huh?

[coral forge]

have you not seen that carnivorous triceratops tiktok theory

[balmy oyster]

I have but I wasn’t remotely thinking of it, cus it’s just another one of those “ooo no true herbivores ooo horse eat baby chickens….”

[coral forge]

oh fair

[coral forge]

nvm I was looking at the wrong formations 💔

[plush fossil]

Whats the earliest known pterosaur or pterosaur relative?

Also another question, what's the earliest known flying animal that isn't a bug?

[open compass]

Does anybody have borealopelta size chart?

[little mauve]

Pterosaurs are the earliest non bug fliers. The earliest pterosaur relatives are controversial but may be lagerpetids and/or animals like Scleromochlus

[plush fossil]

alright thanks! : )

[frigid delta]

what does dinosaur indet. means?

[fossil ingot]

Indeterminate iirc

[undone rapids]

Its some type of Dinosaur, beyond that they can't determine which type

[coral forge]

is sp. Just the species version of indet? Like tyrannosaurus sp. would be the same as tyrannosauridae indet. but we know its a tyrannosaurus?

[native kindle]

yes

[coral forge]

What do I do with the giant blank space at the bottom

[undone rapids]

Maybe just write the names of the artists whose skeletals were used

[native kindle]

poor terato

[ancient crystal]

Make an elaborate hidden easter egg that leads to an image comparing nanotyrannus to annectens

[little mauve]

Wollemi pine I saw today for any paleobotany fans in the chat

[coral forge]

well if I included microhadrosaurus which is a dubious genus I could include nano as one
but then again nano is stupid and I dont wanna edit every number

[coral forge]

I just found a way to fit it all onto 4 rows without changing the size of anything but I'm too tired to be bothered right now

[full lagoon]

Regardless, those ceratopsids probably had a monstrous bite! I'd love to see a representation of one biting a combatant with those jaws.

One of the reasons I'm a big fan of Alberta's ligament tear bite ability

[coral forge]

I mean they wouldn't exactly be able to open their jaws wide enough to bite any of their predators afaik

[full lagoon]

On the body, yeah but we've got evidence that they've attacked the limbs of other dinosaurs (such as the fighting dinosaurs fossil)

[full lagoon]

It's really cool to see the variety of shapes and sizes these animals came in

[primal ice]

The fact zhuchengtyrannus hunted shantosaurus that's a herbivore twice it's size is impressive

[hallow spear]

yes Shantosaurus

[ancient crystal]

I mean, yes its impressive, but its not at all rare for predators to hunt prey larger than them

[primal ice]

Ya like a lion and a water buffalo thing it probably hunted younger or old or sicker individuals tho not like the adults

[patent mist]

are you using a more average edmont instead of becky's giant, ypm 616 and x rex?
and is it intentional that you used cyrtocristatus' silhouette for walkeri?

[coral forge]

yes and yes
I might change the paras though

[ancient crystal]

Average edmontosaurus is best edmontosaurus

[coral forge]

annectens is scaled to 10.84m which is the average for a mature annectens

[patent mist]

i find the largest ones to be funnier personally

[stiff osprey]

the sinosauropteryx uses its camouflage to hide in the hell creek size comp

[coral forge]

big edmont is poopoo because people think it easily beats rex
im swapping it to YPM 2182

[patent mist]

that's more a fault of the people than the animal

[ancient crystal]

Meh, the edmusthosaurus meme and its subsequent believers ruined big edmont

[coral forge]

YPM 2182 >>>>> MOR 1142

[patent mist]

considering it's in my top three i would heavily disagree
it's like saying rex is overated

[coral forge]

rex is overrated though

[winter marsh]

That's just a burger

[ancient crystal]

Its why I enjoy defenseless hadrosaurs in JWE

Watching a T. rex suplex an edmontosaurus after a day of seeing people try and convince me edmontosaurus slapped silly tyrannosaurus in fights and that triceratops actively hunted rex, its almost cathartic

[winter marsh]

I hate seeing defenseless hadrosaurs when an Edmonto gets bodyslammed by a Carnotaurus

[coral forge]

I hate how an X-Rex sized edmont can get 1 shot by a velociraptor though

[patent mist]

rex isn't overated
it's hype is misplaced and glosses over the features that make rex interesting
imagine being boiled down to generic large theropod with nothing interesting going on with you when you are very much the exception to standard megatheropod bodyplan
rex is media is a strawman of itself

[ancient crystal]

Tbf, its probably an unintended consequence of the rating system

Given that damage is tied to dinosaur star rating

[winter marsh]

Hadrosaurs and sauropods should be able to fight back stuff like australovenator and cerato

[ancient crystal]

I am of the opinion that no animal (aside from the clearnose skate) dead or alive can ever be overrated

[winter marsh]

Tardigrades

[ancient crystal]

No, just the clearnose skate, and maybe comb jellies but I'm on the fence about them

[coral forge]

its overrated but still a top 10 theropod
overrated doesnt necessarily mean bad
Its overrated because most people always think of it as the superior theropod that can never be beaten by anything and it always overshadows lesser known dinosaurs

[stiff osprey]

tardigrades literally do survive all that though. not their fault the media neglects to mention that they are massacred by snails

[winter marsh]

Imagine surviving dead space and dying to one of the slowest land animals. Skill issue ngl

[stiff osprey]

in almost every recent media where a t.rex fights another large theropod the t.rex loses

[ancient crystal]

I mean, they're microscopic, their fast is any macroorganism's slow

[coral forge]

or that they arent just constantly durable because they go dormant, which is a state that can take hours to enter, so if you nuke one its still gonna die

[winter marsh]

How do they even die? Cant they go hibernate and become invincible after the snail eats them

[ancient crystal]

Snails are slow, but they aren't, "allow the prey the hours they need to go dormant," slow

[coral forge]

theyre even slow in general compared to their body size
at max speed they can only travel their body length once every 6 seconds

[winter marsh]

Also how do they even eat microscopic stuff. Is it like licking the floor but with a fork and knife

[coral forge]

thats the same as a human running 0.7mph

[winter marsh]

Damn, yeah theyre cooked

[coral forge]

theyre 52x slower than a garden snail

unless.....

[winter marsh]

Wha.. why? Who even thought of this

[balmy oyster]

Why did people gaslight themselves into thinking it could solo a rex? This is even more fair of a matchup than most mammal matchups nowadays.

[stiff osprey]

because they didn't see that comparison, they saw the saurian one with the 10 meter rex vs 18 meter edmont

[ancient crystal]

Because herbivore not fodder

Herbivore big scary animal that kills all predators

Or at least that's how I imagine their thought process goes

[stiff osprey]

certified hood classic

[coral forge]

stoats vs rabbits

[winter marsh]

Herbivore kill predator if predator fumbled to snap its neck

[coral forge]

the only hadrosaur that can kill a t.rex is lambeosaurus

[thorn grove]

average sizes

[ancient crystal]

How dare Saurian have this impact on the field, only to get robbed of its funding and never release

[winter marsh]

It has a hatchet, true

[thorn grove]

Kind of ironic how the "most realistic" dinosaur game may have had the most negative impact on public perception

[coral forge]

I love how the rex is in a crouched position making it look smaller than it really is
even with those sizes the rex is still winning

[ancient crystal]

Lambeosaurus hatchet bite...

[coral forge]

I made a magnapaulia submission for the arazoa mod vote and one of the abilities was sharpen crest

[winter marsh]

Dont remind me of that traumatic event

[coral forge]

the arazoa mod vote was awful ngl
because only donators could vote everyone just voted for their friends and we ended up with a herbi thal clone

[harsh forge]

lambeosaurus used its sharp crest to sever the leg muscles of tyrannosaurs, allowing edmontosaurus to catch up and slaughter them

[winter marsh]

Parasaurolophus then sings KSI leaving the rex in a vegetable state

[coral forge]

I saw someone on another server trying to say pachy could 1 shot rex because it could just run into it and break its ankles

[thorn grove]

I believe this uncritically

[winter marsh]

Thats like saying a baby goat could kill a human. No, ill just curb stomp it

[coral forge]

can we ban tiktok already

[ancient crystal]

Unironically, I was so excited about the US government banning Tik Tok but then THEY DIDN'T DO IT

[coral forge]

and now they own it and want to make it 100% political

[winter marsh]

This is such an emotional rollercoaster

"Oh yeah this pathetic fisheater with daggers in its hands would be useless against the sigma Rex-sized Carcharodontosaurus Saharicus"

[coral forge]

"yeah bro I swapped their weights and hoped you wouldn't notice. Also spino had less bite force than a lion. Source: trust"

[winter marsh]

Also, the problem isnt even the bite but the fact they dídnt address the 20ish cm claws in its hands like how do you even forget that

[coral forge]

poor vertical range of motion go brr

[winter marsh]

Its like saying Deinoch fumbles to Tarbo cuz toothless useless fattie

Also why the heck would you use your arms vertically when you can simply kangoroo stance like godzilla roarrrrr

I think spino v carcha would be equal unless spino is caught offguard, cuz I see spino being a defensive dinosaur when facing up threats instead of "brrr me goes in and get bodied"

Anyways time for Euhelopus profile in Arazoa #JusticeforEuhelopus

[scenic flame]

I think the best way to put it is that rex is over-saturated

[wind prairie]

tbh I wonder how deino vs tarbo did often go
like was it frequent or preferred prey?

[opaque kayak]

Bro scaled off of that one sucho paper to the neotype 💔

Also I found this absolute demon of a Tyrannosaurus rex skeletal

[balmy oyster]

tippy toe looking

[native kindle]

this is a very poor way to look at tupa, and i have quite a lot of plans on how to make its gameplay fun and interactive

[ancient crystal]

I would love a deinocheirus paleoart with it kangaroo stancing

[little mauve]

The deinocheirus holotype has tarbosaur feeding traces, considering the lack of other finds it's reasonable to conclude it was relatively common prey

[ancient crystal]

This one that uses sue's actual skull is my favorite

[coral forge]

Mabye I'm just jealous because my suggestion got voted out in the final + I dont like fliers too much
Ig its too soon to judge though

[wind prairie]

ah
how did tarbo measure up in size compared to the large herbivores in nemegt

[compact leaf]

actually so excited for tupa, one of my favorites

[coral forge]

it would have been smaller than most of its prey

[coral forge]

isn't that now thought to be scavenging because of the position of the bite marks

[balmy oyster]

Even still, shows that tarbo at least fed on it when it got the chance

[undone rapids]

Just sauropods and cherrys were bigger it seems, and we know tarbo ate both

[wind prairie]

wait cherry was bigger?? I see

not to be that guy but I have to wonder how therizinosaurus defended itself from tarbosaurus

[coral forge]

yeah, im not denying that it hunted deinocheirus either
we also have evidence of it scavenging off saurolophus

[stiff osprey]

the tiny ahh sauropod

[little mauve]

I don't really buy that personally, scavenged or fresh the predator is going to prefer certain areas of the carcass. I think it's inconclusive, but it does show it was feeding on them

[coral forge]

whats the small yellow ornithopod in front of theri

[native kindle]

magnapaulia is also already being made by a different team, so it'll still ve made

[thorn grove]

what is a cherry

[wind prairie]

since they probably weren't able to get away by running, and their claws can't be used for combat. And I think kicking would throw it off balance. All it could really do was peck??

[undone rapids]

Deinocherius

[stiff osprey]

theri's claws were not especially well adapted for combat, that doesn't mean it never used them. Better to use the claws and risk them breaking than not use them and be eaten

[manic grail]

is troodon valid?

[coral forge]

I meant beishan
magna didnt even get to the semi finals iirc
lost the semi aquatic herbivore vote to liaoningosaurus

[wind prairie]

not really just that, I mean they break even under just a little stress iirc
so they might as well peck and hope for the best, maybe theri had a really sharp beak (not in a predatory way, just a pointy one)?? idk

[undone rapids]

The best defense is to use that long neck to spot tarbo from afar

[stiff osprey]

the claws breaking instantly under any amount of force is a meme

and therizinosaurs had very small mouths with weak bite forces, i doubt a peck would be more effective

[wind prairie]

yes but said long neck is also at perfect height to be bitten

how is it a meme it was literally proven

[coral forge]

I mean the bites were on the gastralia which would be hard for a tarbo to reach
some people say its scavenging some say its because tarbo targeted vital organs

[undone rapids]

Well if a large predator got within that range, then its already at a big advantage

[little mauve]

If it's dead from predation why would any part of it be hard to reach and predators target vital organs in general

[ancient crystal]

It waddled menacingly towards its foe whilst wiggling its fingers, causing severe discomfort

[coral forge]

I meant the gastralia would be hard to reach on a live deinocheirus

[wind prairie]

that was probably unironically a part of it tbh
all bark no bite

[stiff osprey]

I don't see where the paper says that the claws would be broken by a light gust of wind

[little mauve]

Sure but we're talking postmortem, predation or otherwise

[wind prairie]

not a gust of wind. But they would be broken if smacked repeatedly into another large object, especially a moving one

[stiff osprey]

That wasn't said in the paper either. And a broken claw is still better than a broken neck

[undone rapids]

Being weak to stress doesn't mean they're impossible to use for defense, just indicates it wasn't their main purpose. Anky clubs weren't for predator defense but were probably still used for that probably

[wind prairie]

therizinosaurus with the one time use defense 🥀

anky clubs aren't meant for predator defense but they still work fine doing that because they're still meant to be smacked against things (only rivals instead of predators)
in this case, the body part is literally not strong enough

[manic grail]

wait why is ankys tail club not for predator defense?

[stiff osprey]

it was primarily used to fight other ankys, like most herbivores, but could still be used against predators

[undone rapids]

I meant its primary purpose was to fight other ankys, but it could still be used to smack a rex

[wind prairie]

yes but what I mean is therizinosaurus's claws couldn't have been used for fighting at all, so it doesn't work

[undone rapids]

They could, just not many times

[wind prairie]

as in they couldn't
if they "could do it but it would break" they can't do it lol. This is our best bet

[stiff osprey]

And again this is based on nothing. The paper basically just says they aren't swords, nothing more

[balmy oyster]

I’m pretty sure they would still be effective for physical attacks even if “weak”. I doubt one wouldn’t ever try to stab something if it had the chance.

[wind prairie]

don't they almost shatter just in trying to pull branches

[undone rapids]

No?

[balmy oyster]

Therizino hate is so fabricated. 😒

“If it does ANYTHING its hands EXPLODE and it DIES!!!!”

[undone rapids]

Trees 1 - 0 Theri

[wind prairie]

I'm saying this because I love it unironically
just want it to be represented correctly because for the longest time it was one of my favorite dinosaurs, when the study came out I was disappointed but I've just been trying to rethink it

[stiff osprey]

They weren't super useful for branch pulling, but that goes for any therizinosaur because the neck has a much better reach than the arms. Whatever it could pull, the mouth could reach already

[wind prairie]

I mean physically, it goes without saying that it'd be easier to just use their necks anyway

[undone rapids]

Aren't theris arms more robust than deinocherius?

[balmy oyster]

“I used to love it but this study showed that it couldn’t swing its claws around wackily, so now I’m trying to justify how it’s fundamentally incapable of defense”

[undone rapids]

Don't we like, not have theri's neck. Maybe it was a short necked theri in exchange for being big

[sudden wind]

I think that something a lot of casuals miss in evolutionary biology is that an organ can evolve due to a functional pressure (here natural/sexual selection) and yet be used for other stuffs.

The thing is that the Therizinosaurs (but also the mentioned Alvarezsaurs) evolved their claws due to different functions : Therizinosaururs claws (specifically) do not seem the best adapted to slice, scratch or hook and pull, which is still really weird even among Therizinosauria. So, they concluded that Therizinosaurus claw evolution was not driven by predation, nor feeding.

[undone rapids]

Since the robust arms suggest they were being used a good bit, either for branch pulling or some other feeding related behaviour

[balmy oyster]

I’m dying on the fist stabbing hill

[undone rapids]

This is why the Digging Noasaur must be described

[wind prairie]

and when did I use past tense in loving it
I still love it. Again I just want a good representation of it

and no I'm not saying it didn't try to use its claws for defense. I'm just saying it'd probably fail and idk how it defended itself very well otherwise

[sudden wind]

Still, we have no informations on Therizinosaurus ethology and behavioral ecology. Lot of animals still use whatever they can to 1. intimidate 2. defend themselves if necessary.
If Therizinosaurus successfully evolved these hands, it probably is because either 1. the ungual were seen as a trait that was an indicator of a good fitness 2. another feature that was correlated to Therizinosaurus claws was seen as an indicator of a good fitness, which means that individuals with larger claws were better capable of spreading their alleles (gene variant) throughout populations through sexual reproduction.

So yeah, maybe Therizinosaurus claws were functionally useless (still a maybe because we don't know and I personally don't think such animal wouldn't use such claws for whatever it wanted or needed to do) but possibly were related to a trait, or even overall a genotype, that gave better chances at reproducing for individuals with highly developed claws.

[wind prairie]

I did forget about the robust arms and that is puzzling
that implies they were being primarily used for something very physical right? But the actual claws say otherwise. Could there be something we're missing? Keratin? Something else?

[sudden wind]

Keratin extentions were tested and have shown no meaningful results for increased stress resistance.

My hot take would be that Therizinosaurus didn't splay its claws while using them. Idk if it would explain Duonychus 2 finger condition but mayhaps ?

[wind prairie]

what are you suggesting

[white matrix]

couldn't the claws have been crushed making us perceive them as not being curved in life

[little mauve]

This is cool art, source?

[scenic flame]

I feel like this would be acounted for for something as well researched as theri

[wind prairie]

Frederik Spindler

[white matrix]

theri makes no sense

stego is also well studied 🤷‍♂️

[sudden wind]

If Therizinosaurus had to attack, it wouldn't splay its fingers but grouped them

[undone rapids]

Excadril Theri!!!

[wind prairie]

True...

still though they may have been primarily splayed to show off their claws to mates or rivals like bucks
PUT YOUR HAAANDS TOGETHER IF YOU WANNNA SLAP

[little mauve]

Thought so, haven't seen this piece before. Thanks!

[ancient crystal]

Sometimes I feel like people just didn't try when illustrating dinosaurs.

[manic grail]

back when pachy was a giant

[spice mortar]

Wonder if Theri could have used its claws to appear more threatening, without necessarily utilising them? It’s so weird how its claws didn’t seem to be used for much of anything, off of research. When in doubt, sexual display

[outer tusk]

If you ask me am more inclined to believe a therizinosaurus that was so large enough to defend itself despite the nature of it's weird claws, a cool concept am thinking of is like with many elusive, mysterious animals large and small today, therizinosaurus could've been rare sight in the Nemegt Formation yet still portrays one of the biggest things from that the formation despite it's rarity

[spice mortar]

How it felt to fight things on Pachy in early Evrima

[winter marsh]

I say theri would punch stuff by clenching its fists and jabbing em

[manic grail]

sometimes it would clinch or go for takedowns

[fluid inlet]

How did pachy measurements change so much

[west drum]

Does anyone have a full globe map specifically showing this movement of Gondwana and Laurasia’s history?

Or like, just an expanded version of this map

[thorn grove]

I genuinely don’t know

[charred hearth]

was any ceratopsian faster then the local tyrannosaurid of their enviorment?

[tough parcel]

No lol

[fluid inlet]

Like it doesn’t even make sense for it to change that much in size … then again…. Perucetus…..

[tough parcel]

Or consider the person who made this was just wrong and misunderstood something?

[fluid inlet]

Shut up

[ancient crystal]

The walking sack of potatoes developed the horn and frills for a reason

[fluid inlet]

Found this

A handful of factors come into play. Pachycephalosaurs weren't very well understood for a long time, around this point they were frequently lumped in with Ornithopods. Additionally, their skulls were pretty well described but actual skeletal anatomy beyond that was exceedingly rare. We know now that their heads are massive for their size, but at the time they were scaled to something more ordinary for other Ornithopods, which lead to an overall larger estimate for the animal (I remember seeing books list them as over 20 feet, compared to a bit under 15 today).

[charred hearth]

werent smaller / average ceratopsian rellying on herding / high reproduction rates?

[ancient crystal]

Yes, but I didn't think about that at the time because I was too focused on calling them walking sacks of potatoes

[winter marsh]

yes if the tyrannosaurid had just fallen out of a 40ft cliff and fractures both legs and some ribs

[ancient crystal]

What about a 39ft cliff?

[winter marsh]

hert toe

[charred hearth]

how many leptoceratops does it take to kill a mosasaurus

[tough parcel]

Look how the people hate the truth...

[fluid inlet]

the actual truth lmfao

A handful of factors come into play. Pachycephalosaurs weren't very well understood for a long time, around this point they were frequently lumped in with Ornithopods. Additionally, their skulls were pretty well described but actual skeletal anatomy beyond that was exceedingly rare. We know now that their heads are massive for their size, but at the time they were scaled to something more ordinary for other Ornithopods, which lead to an overall larger estimate for the animal (I remember seeing books list them as over 20 feet, compared to a bit under 15 today).

[charred hearth]

wait...why is he actually making sense

[thorn grove]

Pachy was scaled to Edmonto measurements for no reason

Incoming Pachymusthosaurus

[ancient crystal]

He's a raging triceratops, not a lunatic

[charred hearth]

lunatic lambeosaurus

[stiff osprey]

I'm sure there were a few people who scaled pachycephalosaurus using Stegoceras/Prenocephale and got large results as well, the actual animal is longer-snouted and larger headed than those two

[ancient crystal]

So basically sort of what happened with eotriceratops?

[stiff osprey]

And Spinosaurus and Tarbosaurus and Mosasaurus and every pliosaurid ever

Every time an animal has a proportionally large head its size will be overestimated

[ancient crystal]

You'd think eventually we'd learn to be more cautious

[fossil ingot]

Overall
Yes

The Fatty itself

https://x.com/Sketchy_raptor/status/1973377267314417760?t=3EAzCbhZntTL0DM_WPL2sw&s=19

Dr Matt Dempsey (@Sketchy_raptor)

I got T. rejected at @_LightRoomLDN

X · Oct 1, 2025, 1:19 PM

[stark roost]

What’s the most earliest date we know of homowhatever clothes. Could be erectus or like sapien. Just any

[ancient crystal]

There's a whole wikipedia page on it apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_nakedness_and_clothing

Appears to be an H. sapien thing only

[stark roost]

You can’t say homowhatever without the whatever. I just wanted to know since thought it was an interesting thought and was to lazy to look it up

[ancient crystal]

Unfortunately we're not allowed to speak our own name in this channel

RIP

[charred hearth]

do we have any speculation on what placoderms would taste like?

[thorn grove]

tastes like chicken

[fast hollow]

Probably like placoderms

[warm saddle]

Like fish

[charred hearth]

is this true

[warped peak]

Foxes are kinda doing the same thing so probably

[opaque kayak]

Bruh I thought this was a taxidermy at first 😭

[balmy oyster]

Yes, coyote domestication happens occasionally

[wind prairie]

maybe??
also yeesh idk but that looks very oversized to me?

[stiff osprey]

i think falcon's scalelady is just small

[wind prairie]

forgot about avimimus
also the fact that gallimimus looks substantially larger than ankylosaurs lol

[foggy stump]

Of the 2 types which had stronger forelimbs, allosaurids or spinosaurids??

[zealous ravine]

P sure that is Falcon, but yeah off the cuff I'd say like maybe 1.3 m?

[halcyon cobalt]

Clearly therizinosaurus stored toxins in its body from the food it ate

[pallid glacier]

Beautiful old thing
I have no idea how it appeared in my uni’s library, but now it’s mine

[round barn]

Paleo people, educate me.

Is Latem valid? I heard it wasn't (2021) and then it is (2023) and I am just confused

[native kindle]

no

[coral forge]

Ok I think I've finally organised it enough

[warped peak]

Yes, then no, then possibly yes again

The entirety of the Troodon Trio (Stenonychosaurus, Troodon, Latenivenatrix) are a hot mess because Troodon is based on teeth and other than that they're practically identical

Validity jumps around so much I'd honestly say you can use any name from above and people won't care much

[native kindle]

y'know outside of rex and qianzhou they're all pretty conveniently at a hadrosaurs throat, i gotta imagine there's a reason gor that

[warped peak]

Huh that's genuinely an interesting observation

[stiff osprey]

Yeah ngl i never thought of elongated tyrannosaurid legs being used to help them reach the throat of larger prey items

[warped peak]

I'm curious how non-tyrannosaur theropods compare in terms of height

[stiff osprey]

Don't need to be larger than your prey when you have access to the Bites You And You Die ability

[warped peak]

The Tyrannosaurus in question: (you need another tactic to hunt ceratopsians)

[stiff osprey]

extreme example here but an 8m Albertosaurus has the same hip height as an 11m Allosaurus or a 15m Spinosaurus

[warped peak]

Nono I mean in terms of their prey.

Outside of titanosaurs, how Theropods compare in height to their prey items on average individuals

[stiff osprey]

Large allosauroids and megalosauroids are def taller than their prey unless it's a sauropod (or Stegosaurus)

[warped peak]

Rosey casually solving Tyrannosaurid evolution

[native kindle]

i think a lot of carchs and co were well positioned at the caudefem of their respective largest sauropods
just from seeing comparison pics, could be wrong there

[stiff osprey]

even then i doubt any morrison predator was hunting stegosaurs taller than themselves

[ancient crystal]

And even when you take into account the larger edmonts, rex's head is either still taller than the edmont's or it is right at neck level

[warped peak]

I mean it does make sense to hunt things you are at a good height for

[stiff osprey]

Cats: lol those scrubs can't hunt in three dimensions

[warped peak]

Cats simply turn all ground into the high ground

Obi Wan is a cat confirmed. Even when dangling over a pit, he still has the high ground

[thorn grove]

would it be ok with you if I shared this elsewhere?

[coral forge]

Go ahead
You're free to share anything I post here

[remote shadow]

How solid is the new megaraptor paper?

Think Joaquinraptor is the name

[undone rapids]

Its a good Thief

[balmy oyster]

Pretty good, some of the material isn’t figured or even measured unfortunately but a lot of the key stuff is

[ancient crystal]

Why are the scientific names of dinosaurs seemingly by and large easier to say than the scientific names of extant animals?

[stiff osprey]

Are they?

I've an easier time saying Hippopotamus than Mnyamawamtuka

[coral forge]

I think alligator is significantly easier to say than parapropalaehoplophorus

I think its just because you grow up saying common names for animals so you dont get used to the scientific names, but dinosaurs don't have common names so you have to learn the scientific names

[stiff osprey]

There are hard modern animal names, but that's because there are 5 trillion species of them and eventually you run out of good names

[wind prairie]

parapropalaehoplophorus isn't even hard for me anymore

but that thing?? it scares me

[stiff osprey]

zby is alright
I don't even want to try the beng

[coral forge]

the first one is easy if you break it up

beng-wig-wishing-a-suchus

[balmy oyster]

Bang a wig wishing for a suchus

[wind prairie]

I figured it out eventually yeah but it still trips me up more than para, parapropalaehoplophorus is just a bunch of standard prefixes one after another

[coral forge]

what i love about parapropalaehoplophorus is that it was named after propalaeohoplophorus which was named after palaeohoplophorus which was named after hoplophorus

[coral forge]

might make one for tyrannosauroids in general

[paper parcel]

Guys I have a theory

[hasty vigil]

no way

[wind prairie]

if we call teratornithids teratorns, can we call pelagornithids pelagorns??

[coral forge]

all birds are euorns

[charred hearth]

whats the possibility of ceratopsians skulls being the inspiration towards griffins?

[paper parcel]

Theropods are just drakes so yeah

[sullen cairn]

thank you oldman wikipedia page for having corythosaurus and p. walkeri there with zero citation

granted there is a parasaurolophin in oldman but its not walkeri

[little mauve]

0, it's a neat theory but people have been putting wings on animals to make them magical for a long time

[charred hearth]

would sunfish survive the cretascous

[river plinth]

I don't think they like the way they taste

[winter marsh]

if you throw in about 10 million in the ocean, a lot, considering they can lay up to 1 million spawn (although most of them die). Sunfish survive with one of the most intelligent predators in the sea and their survival strategy is literally tasting like rubber

[outer tusk]

what's wrong with futalognkosaurus

[winter marsh]

piatnitzkysaurus is hard for begginers

[ancient crystal]

Its far far more than million

[winter marsh]

I was gonna say billion but it seems like a lot

[ancient crystal]

300 million eggs, the most of any vertebrate

[winter marsh]

half a billion almost. Imagine a world with 10 billion sunfish in the ocean

[ancient crystal]

Well, in the plankton and juvenile stages they're super vulnerable so that doesn't happen luckily

[winter marsh]

imma make an aquarium for them

[full lagoon]

I think 10 billion sunfish is better than 8 billion humans

[ancient crystal]

More sunfish the better because the oceans could use less jellyfish

[full lagoon]

Still wouldn't fix the underlying cause of said problem

[winter marsh]

sunfish evolving to eat sea urchins so we get less overpopulation of spiky venomous weird orbs

[ancient crystal]

I went trawling recently and we got like 250 comb jellies each trawl, it sucked.

[full lagoon]

Unfortunately it's probably going to become more and more common with the current state of things

[ancient crystal]

I'm fully aware of that

[winter marsh]

imagine surviving humans, damn

[full lagoon]

Doesn't change the fact that it sucks and want to acknowledge it

[lavish frigate]

I can feel it

Deep within my bones

The words all mortals fear

”Alderon [insert animal] is typing”

[full lagoon]

You're right

I wish we had a general channel or something, but at the same time, maybe this server doesn't need any other ways to get into arguments.

[ancient crystal]

We've asked for a general science chat for a long time, they won't do it

[lavish frigate]

Stop trying to have fun, this is the year of our lord 1984

[charred hearth]

largest prehestoric aquatic herbivore?

[balmy oyster]

Steller sea cow

[full lagoon]

Does that even count as prehistoric?

[charred hearth]

well, whats your definition of prehistoric?

[full lagoon]

Before modern human history?

Regardless the Steller's Sea Cow did appear to be the largest marine herbivore we know of.

[charred hearth]

so do you not count mammoths as prehistoric if you follow the same logic you used for stellar sea cows?

[full lagoon]

Does it not depend on the type of mammoth and when humans began writing? Overlap exists in terms of mammoths.

[charred hearth]

how abt woolyh

[balmy oyster]

I mean its extinct and we only have it’s dead remains

[full lagoon]

Still not necessarily prehistoric by any means

[balmy oyster]

And why not?

[full lagoon]

because they existed during modern human history and we literally have written records about live ones

[balmy oyster]

In that case, we have no records of any large prehistoric herbivorous marine animal.

[full lagoon]

They are extinct but not prehistoric by definition

[balmy oyster]

It’s easier to just eat every animal around you than to eat algae and kelp apparently

[zealous ravine]

It was proposed a while but iirc the evidence suggests that wasn't the case sadly

[river plinth]

Man I just wonder would they even be the type to fight back?

[full lagoon]

If you are referring to the sea cows, they definitely didn't

They were wiped out by humans in a couple of decades

[river plinth]

All them pounds just to kick rocks as your defense dang 😭

[stiff osprey]

*they did fight back, they just weren't, like, good at it

[full lagoon]

They actually fought back at all?

[river plinth]

I understand that thats valid I mean aginst other animals primarily

@stiff osprey well least there was effort 🤷🏾‍♂️

[tough parcel]

I think sea cow defense was bumping into the boat

Unfortunately, that did not work

[stiff osprey]

pretty much yeah

[full lagoon]

They would probably still be around today if not for us though, despite not having the best of defenses they didn't really have predators.

[tough parcel]

P sure that's because the main predator of the area, orcas, couldn't hunt them because of how bouyant they were

Hard to kill via drowning if the animal doesn't go below the surface

[opaque kayak]

Damn looking at manhatees they are the only large sea animal I’ve never seen fight anything

Literal floating potatoe

[full lagoon]

It was honestly a strangely effective niche that would have done fine if humans weren't assholes

[opaque kayak]

I wonder what would have happened if instead of meeting a couple thousand sea cows humans would have met a couple thousand of these

[thorn grove]

too fat to hunt is an interesting survival strat

[full lagoon]

We'd still probably try and wipe them out

[warped peak]

At what point do you define large? Paleoparadoxia at 3.5 tons is still a pretty large herbivore, as are several other Sirenians that died out

[balmy oyster]

3.5 tons is quite large, especially for mammals. I think it counts

[warped peak]

Then Rytiodus and Paleoparadoxia still count then

One a desmostylian, one a sirenian with extra large tusks

[sudden wind]

Their extinction is not prehistoric : prehistory is defined as the period of time before writing was a thing

[ancient crystal]

Did dimorphodon lay eggs?

[compact leaf]

one would assume so yeah

[craggy trench]

no no dimorphodon reproduce by mitosis

[compact leaf]

the other option is ovoviviparity which I don’t think we have any evidence for in pterosaurs

[little mauve]

Nope, no evidence for live birth in pterosaurs. Hatchlings were small and precocial

[ashen wedge]

Blubber boy

[ancient crystal]

I... I meant to say dimetrodon lmao

I'm so sorry

[ashen wedge]

We probably would have still hunted them into extinction, we are humans after all

[compact leaf]

lmao I was really confused why that was in question

[ionic crescent]

Yes, they were still basically "lizards"

[paper parcel]

No.

[native kindle]

feilong is in consistent contact with an active dimetrodon researcher lol

[ionic crescent]

Oh great @kindred night, did Dimetrodon lay eggs?

[paper parcel]

Lucky plus dragons irl(yi qi)

[kindred night]

Yes

[coral forge]

how to paleontologists account for the square cube law when scaling fossil specimens?

[ionic crescent]

The safest way would be having a 3D model of the animal, then you can do estimations with less error involved

However I'm not totally sure if it's the way paleontologists do normally, but for example recall Matt Dempsey used a similar method to estimate his acro weights

[manic grail]

just watch jurassic park

[hazy basalt]

This is my favorite depiction of Dimetrodon, still very obviously looks a lizard but around the face you can see hints of mammalian features.

[charred hearth]

what animal alive today would be the closest in niche and hunting style to dimetredon?

[coral forge]

probably some kind of monitor lizard

[sudden wind]

Perhaps a varanid?

[charred hearth]

large game, medium game, small game or just generalist?

[sudden wind]

Funnily enough, we have evidences of Dimetrodon feeding on freshwater sharks (and mostly semi aquatic animals btw)

[charred hearth]

ooh, wait, i remember that, couldnt it swim as good as a jaguar or whatever?

[coral forge]

wasnt it the largest terrestrial animal in its ecosystem? So I assume large and medium game were out of the question

mabye it was like a varanid jaguar

[sudden wind]

Idk how well this thing would swim but the bone microstructure also suggests a terrestrial lifestyle even though it ate sharks and early tetrapods.

So I guess it would snatch stuffs out of water and also hunt stuffs on land.

[charred hearth]

isnt that what jaguars do?

[sudden wind]

If you are interested, try to read those :

• https://hmnspaleo.blogspot.com/2007/10/xenacanthus-vs-dimetrodon-battle-of.html
• https://academic.oup.com/jeb/article-abstract/21/3/807/7323871?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false
• https://www.stuartsumida.com/BIOL680-09/BermanEtAl2001.pdf

[bright sluice]

What is the actual possibility of semi-aquatic dinosaurs having webbed feet? And instead, is it maybe possible they had lobed toes like grebes?

[sudden wind]

We don't know

[charred hearth]

why wouldnt they have webbed feet?

[bright sluice]

Idk, just a thought

[warped peak]

Didn't we have a webbed Spinosaurus foorprint?

Considering Spino is the only semiaquatic non-avian dinosaur known i think it wins by default then

[bright sluice]

I don't know if we have spino prints, never heard about them

[tough parcel]

(It's not named Spinosaurus)

[little mauve]

Theroplantigrada encisensis is the ichnotaxon, not Spinosaurus proper as it's from Spain but likely a spinosaur

Grebes, like most aves, are highly specialized (underwater pursuit predators) and unlikely to find direct parallels with nonavian dinosaurs. Hesperornithes may have had lobed feet, ecologically and anatomically they are close analogues to grebes and loons

[fluid inlet]

Ugly

[fluid inlet]

Scary that we the only ones left

[fluid inlet]

How we the last homos 💔

[full lagoon]

Probably for the best given how we already treat members of our own species

[drifting condor]

Why do dinosaurs have so much holes in their skulls

[stiff osprey]

To lighten the weight of the head, as well as increase airway and sinus space

[frigid delta]

what would really happened if Cerato's horns were teared irl?

[charred hearth]

has cerato taken any w's in any paleo media

[warped peak]

Depends on if the sheathe gets torn out or just the keratin covering

Like a fingernail

[frigid delta]

the pic seems to depict the Allo tears this part too
cuz i can't see the inside horn on that pic

[warped peak]

Then no regrowing from that

[frigid delta]

yeah agreed with Wes

Cera's always taking L on any medias

[winter marsh]

Ark's cera is better than its Allo

[warped peak]

Depends on what you define as Paleomedia

The fact it's omnipresent in it is a win

[charred hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/allosaurus-ceratosaurus-killing-biting-dinosaurs-gif-17288316

[bright sluice]

Is the current thinking on amarga still semi-sailed/covered with the tops of the spines exposed?

[compact leaf]

current consensus fully covered by skin, not a hump fully but more tissue than a sail

[ionic crescent]

Komodos

[charred hearth]

also whats the stance of komados and megalania again?

[charred hearth]

i dont gfet it

[drifting condor]

Imagine thinking pachy used its skull for ramming or mating 😂✌️

[balmy oyster]

I don’t think anyone thought this

Oh wait Twitter

[warped peak]

(this fails to illustrate the rather clear webbing between the first and second digit seen in the Baryonychine footprint that would likely be exaggerated in Spinosaurus based on the large first digit)

[safe ermine]

Yea

[warped peak]

Which does explain why Spinosaurs do have such elongated first digit compared to... well any other theropod lol

[safe ermine]

lol

I really like the spinosaurus

[nocturne cairn]

closely related species. I forget where within Varanus the two sit in regards to each other, but they're pretty close to each other and Perenties iirc

[coral forge]

tiktok also believes it because
"we cant disprove it therefore how do you know for sure it isnt true"

[frigid delta]

how reliable is Robert Bakker, Sereno Paul, & Thomas Holtz?

[pseudo bloom]

I wish I had everyone

All of them are so cool