paleontology

[thorn grove]

I wouldn’t tbh

[steady rock]

i mean like, besides paul, who gets past 12 tons?

[thorn grove]

Paul doesn’t get past 12 afaik except for one humerus that doesn’t even exist anymore so we can’t verify anything about it

[steady rock]

exactly, edmonto and sauro get to 12 ( or excceed i forgot ) and shant is 18 tons

[warped peak]

Shant was around 15 wasn't it?

[steady rock]

was it

[thorn grove]

Saurolophus being 12 is really shaky and Edmonto is probably smaller than Paul on average

Shant gets to 19 from one femur and 17+ from multiple other bones

[steady rock]

im confusion

[warped peak]

Only a single femur seems to result in a 19 ton estimate, which seems like a bit shakey as a basis

I will say that since the discussion on Saurolophus someone did volumetric and got 9.3 Tons

[thorn grove]

People calling 19 will acknowledge that’s a max, but there are multiple other femora and humeri from multiple localities that can get to 16-18 tons so it’s still pretty confidently over 15

[velvet burrow]

Ekrixinatosaurus
Llukalkan
Aerosteon
Chilesaurus
Buitreraptor

[sudden wind]

OK guys, now top 5 favorite Plesiosaurs (=Plesiosauria)

[manic grail]

Idk they all look the same

[quasi token]

sachicasaurus
elasmosaurus
all the aristonectines
pliosaurus funkei
serpentisuchops

pretty basic choices ik

[compact leaf]

Elasmosaurus
Dolichorhynchops
Pliosaurus
Aristonectes
some other 5th one

[manic grail]

I refuse to believe the long necks are in the same group as the no necks

[quasi token]

plesiosaurs keep swapping between long and short necks all the time lol, you better believe it

[plucky basin]

and i refuse to believe that i once thought that mosasaurs evolved from pliosaurs 😭

[remote shadow]

Imagine believing the mosasaur was a dinosaur

[wind prairie]

tough but
elasmosaurus
abyssosaurus
dolichorhynchops
pliosaurus
aristonectes

[sudden wind]

I specified that I count a Plesiosaur as a member of the clade Plesiosauria, so it contains Plesiosauroids, Rhomaleosaurids and Pliosauroids

[wind prairie]

rhomaleosaurs are a part of pliosauroidea
also even within these groups the members don't look the same lol. again compare styxosaurus, aristonectes, and dolichorhynchops

[sudden wind]

They actually are outside Pliosauroidea.

[manic grail]

Why are they not counted as completely different groups then if they are so different

[wind prairie]

ehh idk about that
from what I'm reading rhomaleosaurs are pliosauroids but idk

[sudden wind]

Rhomaleosaurids, Pliosauroids and Plesiosauroids are mostly recovered within a polytomy.

[quasi token]

the neck length isn't always tied to clade tbf, pliosaurs for instance are usually known as the short necked ones but have plenty of long necked members, while polycotylids are mostly short necked (outside of serpentisuchops) but reside in the mostly long necked clade

[sudden wind]

Because they share characters that group them together, testifying from common ancestry.

However, neck length isn't a character that does indicate common ancestry.

[wind prairie]

not only this but there are also a few convergently long necked polycotylids (see serpentisuchops), making these ones long necked-short necked-long necked plesiosaurs

[sudden wind]

Also Plesiosaur phylo from 2021

[wind prairie]

also while the short necked polycotylids are part of the long necked clade, they convergently evolved longer more pliosaur like heads. Leptocleidids though are also short necked members of the long necked clade, but they keep a more traditional plesiosauroid head shape

[outer tusk]

who's the artist in the 5th image?

[sudden wind]

What so funny is that Polycotylids and Leptocleidids, both short necked plesiosaurs and each other closest relatives (the group name is Xenopsaria) , have for closest relatives Elasmosaurids.

[wind prairie]

anthon500

[outer tusk]

their art is beautiful ( REMOVE THIS COOLDOWN )

[sudden wind]

Yeah, that was subject of a recent neat study.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095383625000604

Also, Plesiopleurodon is the most robust known with cranial material and it is so much pliosaur like. The head is huge too.

[quasi token]

absolute comedy
not to mention aristonectines being elasmosaurs themselves with more reasonably sized necks (and filter feeding unless thats outdated now)

[sudden wind]

No, some of them are still thought to be filter feeders.

[quasi token]

nice
meanwhile normal elasmosaurs casually having 70+ neck vetebrae

[wind prairie]

yeah plesiosaur taxonomy is wacky. Cryptoclidids look a lot more like elasmosaurs than polycotylids do, but polycotylids are more closely related to elasmosaurs (if not outright descended from them, iirc?)

[sudden wind]

71cm long skull

[quasi token]

plesiosaurs are just peak animals ngl

[wind prairie]

underrated I'd even say, they too often get drowned out 🥁 by mosasaurs (even if mosasaurs are just as cool)

[quasi token]

plesiosaurs 🤝 ichthyosaurs
needing more attention in stuff

[sudden wind]

I think if I didn't chose to follow a biology cursus and a Palaeontology cursus, I would have wanted to work more on either marine reptiles (plesiosaurs, ichthyosaurs or Metriorhynchids) or Pterosaurs than dinosaurs.

[sudden wind]

They even need more attention within the field itself. Afaiu, the phylogeny for ichthyosaurs are mostly unresolved and they also are quite under studied.

But I shall ask again Tosha what's the state ichthyosaur paleo once again.

Still, I think they aren't the most understudied marine reptile group : that could easily go to thalattosaurs or mesosaurs.

[wind prairie]

elasmosaurs probably had such long necks to displace the water of their massive torso and sneak their heads near fish without alerting them. Also we infer from a polycotylid giving birth to one massive baby (and a few other things) that these animals lived in caring pods almost like dolphins.

so just imagine a group of these freaks' necks coming out of the black to nibble at your ankles

[quasi token]

understandable yeah, hope some new studies and public spotlight can help at some point triassic documentary when

[sudden wind]

Also recent study suggesting, based on morphology, that Ichthyosaurs are parareptiles and not Archosauromorphs.

[opaque kayak]

Kronosaurus, Sachicasaurus, Pliosaurus macromerus, Aristonectes and Liopleurodon

[quasi token]

sachicasaurus mentioned (the sea blimp, plesiosaur edition)

[quasi token]

...id say that feels surprising but given how weird ichthyosaurs are it almost makes sense, il read the paper in a bit though

[sudden wind]

Monquirasaurus and Sachicasaurus are so stupid (Sachica is the worst one)

[tulip gyro]

is this wwd

[outer tusk]

no

[tulip gyro]

but is it the art of anthon500

[outer tusk]

yeah that why I replied with "their art is beautiful"

[tulip gyro]

damn i actually thought the pic was indepentend bc it looks like cgi

[opaque kayak]

CHONKER

[balmy oyster]

Ichthyosaurs are glazed too much, pliosaurs need more love

[fluid inlet]

Na ichthyosaurs deserve all the glaze they get

[rancid dove]

Plio is a Little brotha

[steady rock]

so..was shant 15, 16 - 18 or 19 tons? i know it could be all but on average

[thorn grove]

based on the Kogou quarry it's like 11-12 on average, the Longujian material seems to be bigger on average but that could just be a product of size sorting

[mint linden]

Old Rex model should be brought back (Or remodeled with a boxed head look like shown with the old model) the new one should be moved to a subspecies replacement for rex. The new subspecies will me macraeensis being the only known subspecies of rex and not whatever the hell sangius is. Rex also had a box shaped snout while macraeensis had the downward somewhat skin wrapped snout.

[junior dawn]

macraaensis is not a rex subspecies, its a tyrannosaurus species

[brittle comet]

L take old Rex is cheeks

[balmy oyster]

There’s no subspecies in paleontology

[fossil ingot]

Nah POT Rex now looks good
Unlike before

[wind prairie]

that is so backwards
ichthyosaurs are so underrated because the ONLY ones anybody wants to talk about are the giant triassic genera like shasta and shoni. Think about all the other funky ichthyosaurs there were

[balmy oyster]

I guess but people still do talk about them a good amount. I don’t see people talking about any pliosaurs in general other than fragmentary jaw piece some time ago then people stopped

They also have really interesting anatomy for marine animals considering everything just becomes a fish when they become aquatic. Very little ever utilize their limbs for movement the more derived they get.

[mint linden]

My fault I think of subspecies as the same animal with different traits all the time
But what I’m basically saying considering that macraeensis exist and that it’s still valid we should replace sanguis with macraeensis, make the new model the macraeensis species, and make a more box headed shape for rex.

[fossil ingot]

Why do?
Rex skulls looks alr

[mint linden]

It’s in my opinion would be a better and more accurate take on rex it’s kinda like the same thing with spinosaurus although spinosaurus has lips it’s almost never depicted with lips in any paleontologic media, Rex has a boxed shaped head yet almost never depicted in any paleontologic media

[junior dawn]

Tyrannosaurs had a lot of individual variation, PoTs looks fine. Tho it would be nice if they replaced bataar with mcraaensis and made sanguis the edgy one

[fossil ingot]

Spino having lips is Debated
So saying its accurate its crazy

[fluid inlet]

Did Sue get hit by a meteor ☄️

[fossil ingot]

Rex has alot of Individual Variation.
And POT Rex Skull looks fine.
So I wouldn't say "more accurate"

[fluid inlet]

Oh silly lad

[balmy oyster]

Anky attack ||(it’s just distortion during the fossil process)||

[manic grail]

Is the massive forehead on the new rex subspecies model accurate?

[steady rock]

so shant was 12 tons on average?

[opaque kayak]

T rex did indeed go extinct from a asteroid. It was this guy who was hit

[balmy oyster]

I thought it was 8 tons average? Really do wonder why edmonto fanatics don’t just Stan shantungo instead.

[wind prairie]

cause edmonto lived with rex and people don't care about zhuchengtyrannus

[steady rock]

because they try to convice you that edmonto solo's rex majority of the time and wasnt fodder

[thorn grove]

Average femur is 150 cm from the Kogou quarry which iirc scales to around 11.3 tons (using volumetric models, I think the original paper for the Kogou used femur length allometry and found an average of 8 so you might be thinking of that)

But yea like quinnz and founding said it’s really just about the contrarianism

[opaque kayak]

Rex is gonna run out of things to be solo'd by at this point

[steady rock]

the nefarious flying megalodon:

[warped peak]

The PT Discord today

[thorn grove]

I feel like Shant and rex are kinda similar in a way cuz everyone always wants them to be downsized but it just doesn’t happen

[stiff osprey]

Similar but not the same. Shantungosaurus has just kinda stayed the same size, rex has been continuously upsized since the 1980s

[thorn grove]

True lol

[steady rock]

i wonder, what was rex's lowest average estimate and how long did it stick for?

[thorn grove]

Didn’t table post that screenshot where it was supposedly estimated at 3 tons a while back

Idk how legitimate of a source it was tho it might’ve just been bs

[steady rock]

has tarbo gotten anything in its life that wasnt overshadowed by rex

[thorn grove]

It probably hunted Sauropods more often

[steady rock]

is rex the only reason alamo is the more famous sauropods then tarbos? because they appear in a game + a few documentries

[fluid inlet]

Microraptor on my hand , 10 minute sketch

[opaque kayak]

Shant sized turtle

[outer tusk]

turtle fr lost their fear factor

[fluid inlet]

https://youtu.be/Ul0fCOnjPiE?si=h8yL1Uq--hS3tIMq best soundtrack so far in dinosaur documentaries

[wind prairie]

I can think of 9 paleodocumentaries with infinitely more fantastic and memorable soundtracks

[thorn grove]

walking with dinosaurs has a great soundtrack in general let alone by paleodoc standards

the whole trilogy does

[light osprey]

Everyday I’m baffled by what people find compelling in TV/film scoring

[stiff osprey]

Okay but no lorne balfe's score is actually fire

[fluid inlet]

No you can’t

[wind prairie]

walking with dinosaurs, walking with beasts, walking with monsters, chased by dinosaurs, chased by sea monsters, dinosaur planet, prehistoric park, dinosaur revolution, prehistoric planet

[thorn grove]

I haven't watched much of life on our planet but the soundtrack was honestly not php's strong suite

it wasn't bad but I wouldn't call it very memorable personally, just imo

[wind prairie]

yeah sure but it's no whitetip's journey or preplanet main theme
or time of titans, or mammoth journey, or WWM theme, or flying with pterosaurs, or etc. etc.

[fluid inlet]

https://youtu.be/dzJE0Np2018?si=Ahg9unjy-lh__xCy love this one a lot

https://youtu.be/F6WLXID6FxI?si=pcWav58Q-c7MN6Um

[wind prairie]

this reminded me of yet another better one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5MgO7qnng0

[fluid inlet]

Disagree but it is good

[wind prairie]

so wait, you think LOOP has a better soundtrack than all of the things I listed? lol

[stiff osprey]

half the ones you named don't have iconic soundtracks but I do love sea monsters

[thorn grove]

anything ben bartlett is goated

[fluid inlet]

I didn’t say it was better than all of them but it for better than half of them. I do like prehistoric planet soundtrack and walking with monsters for a few I really like as well.

[thorn grove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nZdYACqRWs

[fluid inlet]

https://youtu.be/RluFC147aS0?si=o6MlFKJB51SXLZBk love how this one goes from a good time to hopelessness , I really like the dramatic feel in Lorne scores

[wind prairie]

I can name an iconic song or 2 from each of them (ok not "iconic" per se, but very good and great):
WWD: time of titans, cruel sea
WWB: mammoth journey, hogs blood
WWM: main theme, arrival of the sailbacks
chased by dinosaurs: main theme, flying with pterosaurs
sea monsters: main theme, hungry cymbospondylus
dinosaur planet: whitetip's journey, new generation
prehistoric park: opening, t rex showdown (Ppark had the same composer as spiderverse, if that tells you anything)
dinosaur revolution: main theme
preplanet: main theme, tarbosaurus and the watering hole

[fluid inlet]

@wind prairie give this one a full listen I think you will like it.

[wind prairie]

sounds a bit like pikmin, but I like it
anyway have some HUNGRY CYMBOSPONDYLUS 🔥 🔥 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLdUMH_fmCw

[thorn grove]

WWD has way more than 2: time of titans, cruel sea, giant of the skies, battle of the salt plains, departure of the muttaburrasaurus, triassic water, antarctic spring, etc.

[zealous ravine]

My hot take is I prefer PhP’s soundtrack over WWD

[fluid inlet]

I agree with this take

[thorn grove]

that is an insanely hot take

[wind prairie]

(this slow mode makes me want to bury my head in a neutron star)
yes, but I was just limiting myself to 2 at most lol

also if you think PhP's soundtrack is better than wwd's you might need to take another listen jesus christ
PHP outside of a few examples has the most generic hollywood movie soundtrack, compared to WWD where basically everything is a banger

[zealous ravine]

It just feels prehistoric and epic in a way I can’t describe. Especially the theme.

[stiff osprey]

bro is naming tracks that don't even exist

I agree tarbosaurus/the watering hole is great though

[wind prairie]

yes the theme is good. but almost everything else reeks of movie trailer to me (again, the tarbosaurus and dreadnoughtus theme are great), WWD has a more primordial and grounded feel to me.

also all those tracks exist even if maybe I got some of their names wrong lol

[stiff osprey]

my favorite bits from dinosaur planet are both from alpha's egg, primal aggression and carcharodontosaurs

though the white tip theme and some of the little das parts aren't bad

[zealous ravine]

Hate to break it to you but PhP’s soundtrack is far more unique than WWD’s, not to say WWD’s isn’t unique but they literally made bespoke instruments for PhP.

[thorn grove]

I can see it having a better feel in the doc to some so ig that makes it better for the doc, but wwd songs are just better in general

[wind prairie]

oh that is so ragebait
even if you think PhP has a better soundtrack than WWD, you have to at least admit that PhP sounds more generic in comparison

[fluid inlet]

Like this is just great, the music is very complimentary @zealous ravine

[zealous ravine]

Like how can you call this generic in the slightest

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhjWbFbJlY&si=BhR9rrsQfVLz6P8u

[wind prairie]

1. it is. Again, I like the dreadnoughtus theme, even if it is generic
2. also that's only one out of a few good tracks from preplanet lol. Literally everything from WWD is great, all of it, on my life

[fluid inlet]

I’ll just say this it isn’t like there is any bad picks tbh

[zealous ravine]

I implore you to look at it from an objective lens: WWD objectively may be better, I’m not knowledgeable enough to say, but calling PhP generic is such an insane take, I’m guessing mostly just nostalgia, rose tinted glasses and all that.

[wind prairie]

oh no no, I'm far more nostalgic for WWB than WWD
I just genuinely think Bartlett did a phenomenal job though. Ask someone who isn't nostalgic for sure and I'm sure they'll agree WWD is good

[zealous ravine]

The thing about WWD for me is it sounds like it could be from any documentary, PhP has such a unique character to it and it fits so damn well

[fluid inlet]

I’m sorry but the Mongolian titan theme clears it easily

[wind prairie]

this sounds like a complete 180 from what I and many others believe... Like I just don't get how you can even think that lol- oh I'm being ragebaited

[zealous ravine]

I’ve only seen WWD 2 or 3 times admittedly but the soundtrack never stuck with me the way PhP did, it just sort of blended in, which honestly can be a good thing, but I think it does have the effect of making it less memorable to me.

[thorn grove]

tbh I didn't even listen to much of the php soundtrack cuz I just found it pretty boring, but they are much less complex and imo aren't really interesting to listen to outside of their context

I understand the point dilo is making about them fitting their scenes well in terms of the vibes because of the strange instrumentation but it is comparably far more generic in terms of its actual composition- switch the instruments out and a lot of them could be in any low effort action movie

[zealous ravine]

Am I the one getting baited here? I get the love for WWD I really do but I genuinely can’t believe not one but two people find PhP’s music to be generic or boring

[wind prairie]

this and WWD also has music that fits its scene: albeit more uniquely
take, as example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Sf6SdYHrI a track that's basically almost entirely escalating bongos

[thorn grove]

i did not fw it idk

though I will say I remember the theme being one of the better tracks, I just felt like only a few tracks were interesting at all

[zealous ravine]

Consider: ammonites

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=xsXgzI3Bbl0&si=e1AfzbNFWgDMQ4i3

(also that Utah track is fire, I think for the same reasons a lot of PhP is)

[wind prairie]

I've been constantly complimenting PhP's theme the whole time. We're talking about generally the rest of the soundtrack

[stiff osprey]

none of the examples posted here are generic, but WWD just has more memorable bangers than PHP does

[fluid inlet]

i think the crazier take was that founding said there was a lot better soundtracks than the one one lorne did for loop

[zealous ravine]

See that’s a take I can respect even if I don’t agree, one thing doesn’t have to be bad for another to be good. Also @wind prairie my apologies I meant to say soundtrack but got mixed up.

[wind prairie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyBPAMfNO2U cruel sea is so... so peak

[thorn grove]

this is basically my main point, php has a couple good tracks, wwd has a lot

[fluid inlet]

This is nice

[stiff osprey]

definitely the wildest take here

on second thought, PHP and WWD have an equal number of tracks i actually have any memory of (four for each), although PHP has twice the episode count

[zealous ravine]

I do think PhP is hurt a lot by a lot of their good stuff not being in their official soundtrack sadly

[wind prairie]

oh yes I do think most of preplanet's soundtrack is generic, but I don't think all of it is bad per se. Tarbosaurus and dreadnoughtus theme are really nice even if I'd consider them kind of basic, and it's also neat how some animals have consistent leitmotifs (like nanuqsaurus and tarbo)

[thorn grove]

idk I basically had the opposite experience as you, wwd's soundtrack really jumped out to me, php's just got lost in the sauce- it fit the vibe but other than that it wasn't memorable at all to me

[fluid inlet]

I disagree prehistoric planet definitely has memorable scores

[wind prairie]

and that's only WWD: lest we forget WWB and the Nigel Marven specials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwNuK1Gx1g PEAK PEAK PEAK

[thorn grove]

I think my favorite wwd tracks are from spirits of the ice forest actually, underrated episode imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-3eYmjqu0

[wind prairie]

spirits of the ice forest and new blood gotta be the most underrated episodes yeah

[thorn grove]

they might be my two favorites lmao

[stiff osprey]

everyone talks about time of the titans and battle of the salt plains but departure of the muttaburra is incredible

[wind prairie]

very very valid. It's really hard for me to take a stance on a favorite, but I think mine are cruel sea and either ice forest or time of titans

[thorn grove]

it is hard to pick

[thorn grove]

idk it's just my opinion

[wind prairie]

and even less talked about is the unreleased brachiosaurus reveal theme https://youtu.be/cHquVn5Vmw8?t=8

[thorn grove]

I want it released :(((

tho tbf it's just a version of giant of the skies iirc lol

[wind prairie]

still might be my favorite version of giant of the skies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsr0vMhLtOc also.. gentle giants 🔥 🔥
gentle giants and time of titans are like two sides of the same coin to me

[steady rock]

i really like this one

[thorn grove]

the sauropod theme

[stiff osprey]

not so much the music but I love how the brach's calls contrast with it, it's like resonating inside my head

[steady rock]

how deep do you guys think certian groups of marine reptiles could dive?

[thorn grove]

to the core if they believed in themselves

[steady rock]

true, but i feel like itchyosaurs would be pretty deep divers due to how big their eyes are

[kindred night]

And yet it felt so incredibly generic despite its bespoke instruments. Bartlett's scores were just way more memorable and felt way more tailor made for the doc. If I put PP's soundtrack in Planet Earth no one would really know the difference. Also the slander on Balfe's soundtrack is insane it's incredible and one of the few execeptional parts of the documentary.

[steady rock]

i felt more impacted by wwd and prehestoric parks sound track then i did with PP and PhP

[wind prairie]

I didn't say Balfe's soundtrack was bad just that I liked the other stuff more

[light osprey]

Yeah that’s not quite right. Fenton’s Planet Earth soundtrack does not sound much like Rozman and Talve’s work

[jagged trellis]

i like music

[crisp spire]

do we mess wit Tyrannosaurini

[balmy oyster]

Tyrannosaur panini

[halcyon cobalt]

Minmi isn’t as obscure as you want it to be bub

[balmy oyster]

isn't minmi dubious

[sudden wind]

No?

Well, that was suggested in 2015 because Arbour and Currie couldn't attribute an autapomorphy to Minmi, but that was changed with Kunbarrasaurus' description the same year.

It was the reaffirmed by Rozadilla et al. 2021.

[frail robin]

Why do some vultures have an open nose? What purpose does it serve and is it possible that dinosaurs/pterosaurs also had them?

[flat pewter]

So basically the reason is vultures eat a lot of messy rotting meat and carcasses, so when they are head deep in liquid slop the lack of nasal septum allows them to just sneeze it out with ease and go back to eating instead of having to shake their head and snort or risk infection as it gets caught on nasal tissue.

[flat pewter]

I would say therapods would have them definitely in some cases, but not Pterosaurs. The reason for this is that a lot of meat eating dinosaurs had their nasal cavity close to the end of the snout, were as most if not all flying reptiles in that area had their nostrils near their eyes at the back of their skull.

[fluid inlet]

Wonder how long it took them evolving for them to have that nose end up like that

[short river]

Probably a whole load of vultures dying to infections

[frail robin]

Alrighty, that's very interesting!! I thought they maybe had it to constantly expose their scent sensitive cells to the air, but I'm glad I finally know why!

[flat pewter]

I imagine it was gradually reduced over time. After all, Vultures come from the same family as eagles and hawks, so I imagine the first common relative had a diet of hunting and meat then slowly over generations started to adapt to eat more and more rotted food

[flat pewter]

Yeah it is! Mainly animals that have a good sense of smell or rely on it in daily life usually have significant facial/ nose tissue for membranes that help capture and hold scent molecules to register as smell. Think of it like a net or a fly trap but for things on a cellular level.

[fluid inlet]

When they said evolution took millions of years my thought is it did not take millions of years at all to see key changes in creatures.

[frail robin]

Wait, so it does help with that too? Awesome! I'm taking notes because I like to give dinosaurs a certain design when drawing them, and for Ceratosaurus and Gorgosaurus I want to design them to be vulture-like, with a good sense of smell since I will be placing them in the generalist role of being able to eat any kind of meat they stumble upon

[flat pewter]

Depending on the environmental pressures, mutations, and pre-existing sexual dimorphisim between males and females, I'd argue half a million or slightly less depending on the animal until features start changing. Sometimes a lot less if breeding is selective but I don't know if that counts as "natural selection" as it's man made in most cases like with how pugs were 200 years ago vs now

[flat pewter]

A lot of successful animals are like that in the modern day, like Hyenas, Lions, Bears, Wolves, Crocodiles, and Komodo Dragons, so I imagine the same would apply in the past! Of course some Dinosaurs might have been hyper carnivores and rarely scavenged, but it was more likely than not that even certain beaked "Herbivores" ate meat from the dead, dying, or weak for supplemented protein and calcium. There's an on going theory that Ceratopsians like Triceratops were closer to a Black Bears diet than a cows, and it's got some merit. They had a very sharp beak with shearing teeth that could crack bone or snip into a turtle shell. And since deer and horses eat small animals all the time... I wouldn't be surprised if a Trike at a rex or raptor chick from time to time if it was around.

[frail robin]

I have read abt Ceratopsians acting more like boars than cows or ox, and I quite like the idea!

[steady rock]

Do you think I could escape a pachy by jumping a fence or will would it be able to jump over it too? ( think a regular fence you'd see at a park)

Question, under the raptor prey restraint, are you being eaten alive first or are you getting killed first?

[ionic crescent]

Not only vultures do! A lot of birds have NO nasal septum (birds of prey, gooses, fowls, screamers, waterfowls, etc), and it's VERY likely dinosaurs had as well! (mainly carns like rex, veloci, pyroraptor etc, herbs TEND to have nasal septum, like triceratops)

[blazing ridge]

What do yall think about my man the Amargasaurus and his spines/neck fin things (I don’t know the technical term) which one do yall think is more likely

[steady rock]

Amargasaurus deserves the world and more

[blazing ridge]

REAL

[flat pewter]

Yes, most likely. Now the issue isn't putting the fence between you and the Pachy, but if you are fast enough to make it there before it could run you down. They might be able to break down the fence after you Jump it, but like any other animal, if its strange and new to them they might switch to curiosity and fear instead of aggression.

[manic grail]

I would beat up the pachy

[flat pewter]

Depends on the Raptor and where the Sickle claw lands. A Utah Raptors largest talon is built to slash more so than other raptors, so you might bleed out if you are struck in the liver or between the ribs, or suffocate if it slashes between your ribs to your lungs from blood filling them and air escaping. However, if the initial grapple didn't put you out, and even if it did it would take some time, it would most likely start to eat you providing that you weren't strong enough to fight back or actively hurt it as it went in for a bit.

Deinonychus, however, is a different story. The average male human weighs roughly around 150-220 pounds, close to the weight (a little lighter or heavier depending on the individual), to a average raptor of that species. They would try and most likely kill or incapacitate you before they eat as you could injury them if you fight back while they try to feed.

Essentially, if the raptor is able to pin you without risk of injury, they don't care if you are dead: you are food and if they don't have to wait they will.

This behavior is the same in modern day carnivores like bears and hyenas as well as eagles and osprey.

[manic grail]

Ez victim

Did you meet those dinosaurs or what

[scenic flame]

agreed, spirits of the ice forest OST it's is my fav
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YXtRNSSErE

I agree WWD has more bangers and almost every OST is memorable, but I think PhP's main theme is my favourite of all time
This version specifically
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkoFOZ3WsPE

[hardy sentinel]

What was the biggest non hominoid monkey?

[pliant cedar]

deinopithecus was quite big

[flat pewter]

They are close friends

[flat pewter]

Gigantopithecus was the largest primate but yeah Deinopithecus was a big baboon with an attitude problem.

[warped peak]

Dinopithecus is in the same size range as Chacma baboons

[warped peak]

@calm agate Do you have any formal thoughts regarding Cau's proposal on Baharia and Delta being synonymous? I know I've heard you mention most of the ideas brought up in the new paper, as well as the Leggy Boys being merged as unlikely

https://www.italianjournalofgeosciences.it/297/article-1220/beyond-the-stromer-s-riddle-the-impact-of-lumping-and-splitting-hypotheses-on-the-systematics-of-the-giant-predatory-dinosaurs-from-northern-africa.html

[hardy sentinel]

Are the amount of broken bones that healed in Allosaurus specimens good grounds to assume they were highly aggressive in life? Like if you're always throwing hands you're gonna break some bones

[cloud dagger]

It just makes me think competition about food and mating were rough, not necessarily meaning they were highly aggressive at all times

[manic grail]

https://tenor.com/view/transformers-sentinel-optimus-prime-optimus-prime-gif-26529362

[compact saddle]

[undone rapids]

Pretty sure that's just more so due to finding alot of Allo bones in general. If we found 100 Cerato specimens we'd probably see alot of injuries and bite marks there too. We see alot in Rex which also has alot of specimens iirc. Carnivores hunt alot and prob fight members of their own species often too that's gonna leave marks.

[flat pewter]

They were big game hunter, perhaps with some mobbing behavior perhaps not, but they lived along side other predators that would at certain points in their lives overlap in their niche, and the larger Herbivores were big and tough enough to break bones even when weren't directly attacking or defending themselves. Pair this with an environment that went through times of extreme drought, mud pits, and starvation, and broken bones become a huge possibility, amplified when you realize that a lot of allosaurs who were born in times of drought probably had some nutrients missing from their diet.

In short, the Morrison Formation is underrated for how brutal it was. It had 4 large Carnviores, and two of them were above Allosaurus, and the one who was smaller had a stronger bite per square inch.

Everything that it would try to eat that wasn't a bug or 1/5th their size was armed with spikes, scales, body weight of 10+ tons in some cases, or was just as hungry and fierce as they were. Yet we found more Allosaurus than every other carnivore in that Formation. But part of that makes me think it's "Fossil Bias". I believe that Ceratosaurus stuck to dense jungle and was possible semi aquatic, and Torvosaurus and Saurophaganax were solo hunters who moved around a lot given the amount of food they would need. Meanwhile, Allo was in the perfect size to suffer yet thrive.

[hardy sentinel]

What two were above Allosaurus? The two largest predators in the Morrison are A. Anax and T. Tanneri (unless you reject the idea of Saurophaganax being a chimera)

[flat pewter]

A.Anax might have been slightly larger than average, not the titan that was Saurophaganax but a big one nonetheless. And Torvosaurus Gurneyi could have been as big as 37ft long, def bigger than the average allo.

[undone rapids]

Gurneyi was in Europe

[olive tulip]

Is it true that Allo’s bite force wasnt so great?

[hardy sentinel]

Tanneri is north american, gurneyi was european and is the bigger one

[undone rapids]

Its Normal for a theropod for its size.

[olive tulip]

I see. I heard not long time ago that it was pretty weak, wanted to check if its a myth or nah

[undone rapids]

It was considered weak since it was compared to Tyrannosaurus iirc, which isn't a great comparison since every theropod has a weaker bite than Rex. It'd be like calling a Lion slow since a Cheetah is faster. But yeah its BF is decent for its size

[hushed fossil]

What could be the reason that most Ornitischians, as well as turtles and parrots lost their antorbital fenestraes?

[pliant cedar]

they didnt need it

[hushed fossil]

Elaborate please

[wind prairie]

if edmarka is tanneri, I think that makes tanneri bigger

[tough parcel]

At least with lambeosaurines, it might be because they mutilated their face bones to get a cool crest (animation at the end of this video)
https://youtube.com/shorts/FBXJTxlOt1g?si=T7LK8eG3J4mbqTpq

[opaque kayak]

Does you or anyone have the pdf, btw?

[tough parcel]

No lol, not even Cau

[opaque kayak]

I wish someone could buy it and share it with the rest of us

[hushed fossil]

Thanks. What about the rest?

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/dinoh555/status/1919462240903733715?s=46 huh

Dactylioceras🇵🇸 (@Dinoh555) on X

Goodbye Deltadromeus (Is Bahariasaurus)
Goodbye Charcharodontosaurid Eocarcharia (Now a Chimaera of Carch and Spinosaur bones)
HELLO NOASAUR BAHARIASAURUS
https://t.co/NjpE4AIIVM

X · May 5, 2025, 6:40 PM

[hardy sentinel]

If

[undone rapids]

Still Elvis makes them not far in size

[zealous ravine]

People are jumping to conclusions rather quickly, no one even has access to the full paper yet lol

[stray saddle]

Could you please tell me which 2 carnivores were above Allosaurus? And which one smaller had a stronger bite?

I think you are deeply, deeply mistaken.

[warped peak]

Cerato does seem to have a stronger bite than Allo

Saurophaganax is such a different size class to most Allo it ecologically would be distinct, even if within the same genus, and then Torvo is Torvo

[zealous ravine]

T. tanneri would be smaller than Allo on average iirc. Gurneyi meanwhile would be bigger than A. europaeus

[stray saddle]

Cerato had a horrible bite... Allosaurus was way , way stronger. You just need to compare its jaws

[warped peak]

Or we can compare the analysis on their bite forces that demonstrate Cerato's jaw musculature was more effective for power, while Allo's was more effective for wrestling

Although Allo's strength is more bone structure than muscle admittedly.

[stray saddle]

I'm going to sleep now. Tomorrow I will tell you why you are wrong

I just want to say. Whoever checks dinosaur stuff in Wikipedia, is the biggest mistake ever

[warped peak]

The larger Allosaurus specimens did definitely bite harder than Cerato, but it bites about as hard as a 2 Ton Allo from what I recall

[stray saddle]

And I wish I was an expert. But I ain't lol. So, I need to ask to the guy tomorrow, so he can guide me lol. But, Torvosaurus Gyrneyi was 10 meters long. While fragilis could reach 11-12- meters long, so..

[warped peak]

Fragilis most certainly was not 12 meters long. That would be larger than Anax.

And Gurneyi if we're discussing it breached 12m. But isn't relevant to the Morrison really

[zealous ravine]

Finding some force numbers for allo and cerato now

[flat pewter]

I said per square inch. And I wasn't mistaken of Torvo.G, just that subspecies location. Cerato was like a jaguar, stronger bite than a lion. But allo was the lion of the Morrison, only possibly outclassed by Anax

[warped peak]

Per square inch is a garbage measurement outside of material strength and should be ignored

Use Newtons

[jagged trellis]

washing machines per breakfast menu is the best of the 3

[stray saddle]

Nope.. you are wrong my friend.. there are fragilis or amplexus largar than Anax. AMNH 5767,,, DMNH/cps99,,,, NMMNH 26083,,, and there's another one in a private collection. You can search by yourself

Espanterias was a fragilis 12 meters long

[warped peak]

I'll just let the myriad of people who care about the Morrison discuss this

I find the whole thing boring outside of the amusing amount of Allosaurus there

[zealous ravine]

@stiff osprey i know youve scaled these specimens before, do you happen to have the numbers on hand?

[flat pewter]

Allo didn't need the bite to be strong, only needed to get ahold of whatever it was to inflict a bleeding wound and hold it with its talons. Allo, like I said, was like a lion of its time. It had size, power, and numbers in a mob on its side. Cerato well, it had its bite and bite only to rely on. In terms of body size, it had the longest teeth relative to body size and a skull made to use them, no front talons to grapple with prey. Probably ate turtles, crocodiles, and other smaller armored prey along with whatever else smaller than it. Hyenas are smaller than lions but have the ability to crunch bone for marrow. I don't think cerato was eating bones but it def has similar niches in theory.

[warped peak]

Cera's teeth are honestly pretty bad for dealing with armor

Long, thin, and blade like

Those numbers cannot be right. Humans are like 1000 Newtons

[sullen cairn]

kilonewtons

[sharp bough]

Try like 5400+ something Newtons

[sullen cairn]

or well 5.9kN vs 9.5kN

[warped peak]

So for reference, this is using a large Allosaurus and a smaller Ceratosaurus as well

[stray saddle]

EXACTLY. THANK YOU

[sharp bough]

I refuse to believe a human can have more nf than a sub allo

[zealous ravine]

Also worth noting the Ceratosaurus numbers are predicted based on skull width, so take em with a grain of salt

[warped peak]

I also would like to clarify we are dealing with a 5m long Ceratosaurus specimen here

I'm not lying, you're just not reading the articles you quote.

Ceratosaurus nasicornis is only a little over 5m

C. dentisulcatus is about 7m

[zealous ravine]

I can’t seem to find the exact specimens used so I have no idea why you’re saying this was definitively adult or subadult lmao

[fossil ingot]

None of those but AMNH 5767 are larger than Anax btw .
Private Collection Specimens aren't really Reliable at all tbh.
Epanterias its just an exceptionally Large Fragilis who is placed at 11.8m atm due to how Fragmentary it is

[warped peak]

We merge into one guardian deity with the help of the tears of the kingdom

[sharp bough]

Pop corn? 🫸🍿 🍿 🫷

[sullen cairn]

tbf even if you scaled up the ceratosaurus skull in sakamoto to the largest individual i dunno if it'd even reach the allosaurus specimen they used

[fossil ingot]

A 2t Allo isn't necessrilly a Sub Adult
We literally have a 4.7m Adult one☠️
But yeah 2t sounds about average for Allo
Prob a bit more

[warped peak]

Allosaurus has a dramatic amount of size variation

[zealous ravine]

Mhm, it’s kind of ridiculous

[fossil ingot]

Cera MAYBE bited Harder proportionally.
Thats about it
Like proportionally.
Cera prob bited harder if both are the same size

[cloud badger]

Do you think they had a doctor that came to oversized allos and screamed at them until they got lean

[warped peak]

I know I've seen a 12k N bite estimate for Cerato in the past, although I don't know the validity

[stray saddle]

There's an adult T Rex being 5 meters long too. So?🫠

Unless you consider nanotyranus valid lol

[fossil ingot]

Size Variation is crazy.
Look at Allo and Edmonto.
And TMK the Smallest Sdult Rex its around 10m and 6t mf

[warped peak]

(There is not a 5m Tyrannosaurus adult)

Not even the smallest Tyrannosaurine was that small as an adult lol

[runic aspen]

The "nanotyrannus" holotype isn't even an adult.

[cloud badger]

Dwarfyranus rex

[zealous ravine]

That’s just not true lmao

[runic aspen]

And nanotyrannus ins't valid

[fossil ingot]

Yeah.
The Only freak if you wanna call it like that
With a Dwarf Adult of said Size its Allo.
Why? Cause Allo is weird and its Adult Size Variation is crazy

@runic aspen Theres chances for it to be recently, but futurr papers will said

[thorn grove]

you said this last time when people proved you wrong lmao

[runic aspen]

I honestly really doubt that a species composed only by juveniles is valid.

[cloud badger]

Is there any chance that the so called size variation might just be over and underestimation

[fossil ingot]

Nano's Holotype has some stuff "proving" its adult and we are supposed to get more Stuff on the future for it
Rn we just gotta wait
But its return isn't impossible
Heck Mira returned lmao

[runic aspen]

If nanotyrannus really was it's own genus we would have found at least something of an adult individual by now.

Considering we have multiple specimens.

[zealous ravine]

Thing is we don’t know if they’re juveniles, a recent SVP had a paper presented saying it was an adult and one saying it was a juvenile lmao

[runic aspen]

Bro is omniscient

[zealous ravine]

Ah yes, the famous External Fundamental System that may or may not be a reliable indicator of age lmao

[cloud badger]

Can someone answer this

[runic aspen]

Maybe. It's probably the case for more fragmentary specimens.

[warped peak]

Hey look its the mammal king

Taeniodonts

[zealous ravine]

Ironic when most of what you’ve said is flat out wrong lmfao

[cloud badger]

Dinosaursus better

[warped peak]

Dinosaurus is not a mammal but it's a Rubidgean so it's a win still

The cool Gorgonopsids instead of Inostrancevia

[runic aspen]

People calling a piece of a finger "the largest Dromaeosaurid"

[fluid inlet]

And

[sharp bough]

Sukuna's finger

[runic aspen]

And it's very questionable.

[fluid inlet]

Why

[thorn grove]

.

[runic aspen]

Velokuna

[warped peak]

My man you quoted a paper entirely incorrect, ignored why you were wrong, made baseless claims and then said we don't know what we're talking about

[sharp bough]

YESS

[elfin pulsar]

“5m adult rex”

[runic aspen]

Calculating the size of an entire creature from a single Piece ins't exactly an easy thing. So it's generally better to look at those estimates with a pinch of salt until more information comes out.

[outer tusk]

boo

[deft sigil]

This channel is for educational purposes. Please remain polite with each other while in conversation, debates are not an excuse to insult another member of the community or to be disrespectful. Refer to our #rules

[warped peak]

Hey look dog

[runic aspen]

That's one big ahh dog.

[warped peak]

The funny thing is it doesn't end up bigger than Amphicyon somehow

[runic aspen]

Does anyone know if we have any material from other juvenile ceratopsid (ceratopsids?) besides Triceratops itself?

[cloud badger]

That's one big ahh head he got here

[zealous ravine]

I was only able to find a single mention of which allosaurus skull was used and it simply says Madsen 1976 which describes several skulls lmao

[jagged trellis]

he looks like a gentleman who eats with their mouth open

[warped peak]

He's a gentleman built to hunt thats for sure

With how big his jowls would be, eating with mouth open would entirely be an option

[runic aspen]

I love paleontology

Only when your favorite dinosaur is composed fully of three pieces of bone, you will know what true pain feels like.

[warped peak]

The strongest flying mammalian carnivore vs a Pterosaur with a similar bite force

[fluid inlet]

Im not sure how anyone can make a specimen there favorite when there is less then 5 bones , then again im sure people are calling Goliath their favorite with just his femur.

[runic aspen]

Thalassodromeus my beloved.

Wait a minute, "similar bite force"?

That's relative to body size right?

Right?

[cloud badger]

Ignorant calling that the largest flying mammalian
You clearly never heard of the elephant catapult

[warped peak]

No I mean in Newtons

In terms of relative bite force it's not even a question. About 60kg vs about 0.14kg

[runic aspen]

Scared me for a second there. Thought that was either a really strong bat or my goat was really washed.

[warped peak]

Thala is washed

The bat bites almost as hard, at the sizes demonstrated there

[runic aspen]

Troodon fans

[runic aspen]

I don't get it... So it's comparing the bite force relative to the animals size/weight or not?

[warped peak]

Thala has an estimated bite of about 140 Newtons
Vampyrum has an estimated bite of about 120 Newtons for larger specimens

[runic aspen]

Daam. Thal still my favorite Pterosaur... But that's really funny.

[warped peak]

That being said, the 430× size difference probably meant Thala was more dangerous

Pterosaurs were built for nabbing and swallowing things whole, not biting

[runic aspen]

Our Brazilian travel sized azdarchid.

[warm saddle]

Is sigilmassasaurus still valid?, n if so uh what is it's size estimation

[warped peak]

I want to give perspective of how absurd Vampyrum's bite is though

Thats about equivalent to Goliath biting with 13 000 000 N, as Vampyrum's bite is almost equal to its Mass in Grams

Not exactly how relative bite force works but it gets the idea across

[warm saddle]

Damn

[runic aspen]

Now i really want to know what AMNH 5767 is. Is Epanterias considered valid? Is it an Allosaurus indet, A.fragilis?

[warm saddle]

I am curious

[stray saddle]

@thorn grove what made you puke?

[runic aspen]

So... Where does the 12m+ estimates for A.jimmadseni come from?

[warped peak]

Here's a less painful topic
1 Ton Allosaurus vs 700kg Bear Dog

[runic aspen]

My vote goes to the Allosaur.

[warped peak]

How big would a 1 Ton Allo be anyways?

[hardy sentinel]

a ton (probably)

[runic aspen]

Around the Size of A.europaeus i guess.

[thorn grove]

I ate some spoiled meat sorry about that

[warped peak]

Theoretically the bear dog would have a tremendous power advantage, even at a size disadvantage, so I think it'd be an interesting fight

[runic aspen]

Beeg

[runic aspen]

12 meter Suchomimus is actually scary.

[hardy sentinel]

Imagine being part of a really diverse Allosaurid family and your existence is debated and also being the smallest species

[runic aspen]

I remember a very recent paper reinforcing the validity of A.europaeus.

And size ins't everything

[hardy sentinel]

Psittacosaurus lujiatunensis solos A. Europaeus

Oh wait nvm, it couldn't even solo a tiny mammal

my GOAT Repenomamus Robustus

[runic aspen]

He looks robustus.

[hardy sentinel]

he is very robustus, so robustus he could take on a psittacosaurus 5 times his size and win

[candid magnet]

I want this thing to talk like gopher from Winnie the pooh.

[crisp spire]

Tyrannosaurini is pretty cool tbh

[hardy sentinel]

I told you not to be controversial dawg

[crisp spire]

😭

[hardy sentinel]

I know this might be a dumb question, but what caused humans and lions to convergently evolve to be similar in some senses? (Heavier males with hair structures for fights and display, Endurance hunting, Group behavior, etc.)

Could it have just been by random chance or was there an active push for some african animals to evolve similar traits to survive?

[thorn grove]

Don’t a lot of mammal predators do all of those

[devout haven]

PK Brachiosaurus

PK Apatosaurus

PK Velociraptor

[stiff osprey]

Lions aren't endurance hunters, and all felids have heavier males compared to females. Group behavior might be an interesting convergence though, since not all primates and not all cats are social

[severe yew]

any dinosaur described with just a few bones should not be allowed

its for real ridiculous...

[devout haven]

PK Tarbosaurus, this guy is definitely an interesting one. The dewlap is a nice speculative touch.

[wind prairie]

mira returned?

[severe yew]

exactly 💯

[devout haven]

PK Iguanodon

[wind prairie]

explanation?

[runic aspen]

Ah yes. Tyrannosaurus bataar. My favorite.

(Really now, does anyone remember when they where actually called that in the game?)

[devout haven]

To be fair, it really is just a smaller Tyrannosaurus.

[runic aspen]

Nah

[devout haven]

I'm sure it'll be changed soon.

[zealous ravine]

It already has been lol

[devout haven]

And I think it looks great

[warped peak]

To be clear, Tarbosaurus is noticeably different to Tyrannosaurus

[severe yew]

can you show the "noticeable" differences?

[warped peak]

I can in a few minutes

[stark shore]

https://www.italianjournalofgeosciences.it/297/article-1220/beyond-the-stromer-s-riddle-the-impact-of-lumping-and-splitting-hypotheses-on-the-systematics-of-the-giant-predatory-dinosaurs-from-northern-africa.html?fbclid=IwQ0xDSwKFy1FjbGNrAoXK2mV4dG4DYWVtAjExAAEe2Qdmkm3IGiWAcpLCIXB7sVHkGc3i9q91z172rbllqiZQQif2A0nNBnkmT7I_aem_hI3NH6ChH0TdU1fTXCvgKw

Yes deltadromeus and eocharca dead

[flat pewter]

Overall traits due to sexual selection. This happens a lot in the animal Kingdom, but in mammals it represents itself in the form of typically larger, more aggressive males with sharper teeth, thicker fur/hair/muscles, and more volatile testosterone levels. The reason these are passed down is males with these traits are more likely to survive until adulthood and are able to make ospring, which in turn makes the females of these species seek those traits out more on a genetic and behavioral level as it increases survival, making them more prominent over time.

The reason lions hunt in groups, hunt big game, go after the weak and young in their prey like native humans did is simply due to one thing: they evolved alongside each other in the same environment and they hunted the same things though very differently. That and animals with higher numbered groups in Africa usually have better hunting odds (IE hyenas, wild dogs, lions, Jackles, cheetah siblings, and mongoose).

[flat pewter]

Not as speculative as you would think. Apparently a few years back a palentogist crew found a near perfect Tarbosaurus skeleton in the desert, even the colors of the scales along the face and neck were preserved and according to the lead diggers testimony said that there was evidence of a large colorful dewlap. However due to storms they were forced to leave the desert and when they returned the site had been poached. Same thing that happened with the head of Deinocherus

[devout haven]

That’s absolutely horrible to hear, it’s sad this is the case for countless over fossils.

[flat pewter]

It breaks my heart if I'm to be honest. Literally priceless history sold to some third world black market buyer to possibly be made into medicine that won't work or kept in a vault that will change God knows how many hands

[tough parcel]

@flat pewter @devout haven https://incertaesedisblog.wordpress.com/2019/10/06/the-anecdotal-tarbosaurus-throat-skin/

[flat pewter]

The knife in my heart right here

[devout haven]

There’s just little that can be done about it, most governments don’t exactly care about these kinds of things as far as we can see. When it comes to paleontology, topics like fossil poaching and weather conditions are definitely the worst.

[tough parcel]

Mongolia is actually incredibly protective of their fossils

Unfortunately, it’s just not cost-effective or wise to leave a bunch of armed guards around a fossil that they aren’t trained to be around

[bitter quest]

Also eocarcha? Let me guess became a young carch?

[flat pewter]

If I win the lottery my first million that I have to spare will be donated to help that sort of thing

[tough parcel]

You’re going to need a lot more than a million 💀

Also you might be thinking of this one as well https://incertaesedisblog.wordpress.com/2022/10/04/the-lost-tarbosaurus-mummy/

[devout haven]

It really is just hard to see.

[bitter quest]

Sad it was stolen

[balmy oyster]

Deltadromeus can be believable but I am doubtful about eocarcharia

[stark shore]

That maybe chimera of spinosaurid and charc

[lofty creek]

eocarcharia has been known as a mixed up thing for a fairly long time
so it's not a surprise

it wasnt even put in carchardonsaur in the Tameryraptor paper

but that 12-metre-long Berthasaur is really a bomb…
(this is just a Berthasaura enlarged to the Baharia size, not Bahariasaurus itself)

[honest cobalt]

I like it

Gobble gobble

[topaz shell]

We wouldn’t be able to know

[honest cobalt]

Someone give me an interesting dino fact for the day

[balmy oyster]

Yeah that’s exactly what I’m doubting.

[fluid inlet]

Saurophaganax is not a theropod.

[balmy oyster]

It might be. Still arguable whether the holotype really is a sauropod or not

[fluid inlet]

Oop

[lavish frigate]

We’d actually know if it had that, we have the whole thing fossilized perfectly so we pretty much know exactly what bro looked like

[halcyon cobalt]

how many carcha specimens are left post-tameryraptor

[opaque kayak]

I hate this lol

[undone rapids]

2ish, 1 is a pretty complete skull and the other is a fragment of a skull iirc and the holotype of 2nd smaller carch species, igudensis or something though its possible it might get its own genus someday.

[balmy oyster]

what a mess

[lofty creek]

jumpscare

[balmy oyster]

No way it’s the dreaded noasaur megaraptoran Frankenstein’s monster!!!

[hallow spear]

I actually like that silhouette ngl lmao

[timber kiln]

So what im understanding about the new paper is that
Delta is gonna be lumped into Baharia
Bahariasaurus is now a part of abelisauriodea and Herbivorous
And eocarchia is killed off too

Did I understand that correctly or nah
And is there anything I missed?

[fair dome]

Yup + kryptops Is a chimera

[timber kiln]

Oh?
how so

[fair dome]

https://www.italianjournalofgeosciences.it/297/article-1220/beyond-the-stromer-s-riddle-the-impact-of-lumping-and-splitting-hypotheses-on-the-systematics-of-the-giant-predatory-dinosaurs-from-northern-africa.html

[timber kiln]

I see

[flat pewter]

Psittacosaurus is one of the most well preserved dinosaurs ever, and we know it was a good parent/ sibling as it's been found watching over dozens of infants and juveniles of its kind in dens. Also, we know what it's butt and genitalia look like because it's just that well preserved down to the scales, which sounds gross but is very lucky considering how soft tissue decays before it can be fossilzed! Probably made wonderful pets with how social and small they were

[cloud badger]

Well you see rock doves or commonly called pigeon can fly over 100miles to 600 miles without taking a break in a single flight

[scenic flame]

iirc this art is from someone using AI to do the textures etc, so I would ignore it

[tough parcel]

I don't think so, DoW has had ugly textures for years

[scenic flame]

does the person also go by paleorex?

looked em up, I think Paleorex, the person I was referring to is a different person, good to see

[tough parcel]

I just hate how it feels like he goes out of his way to make the dinosaurs as ugly as physically possible

I think there is a subtle difference in the amount of "ugly" exhibited by the art vs the animal

[cloud badger]

First of no they objectively aren't hideous ostriches are beautiful and so are emus and cassowaries
Secondly I like how he takes inspiration from realife birds especially when it comes to things that naturally evolve in convergence but I would like it if he made them look HEALTHY u know ,here let me explain the pic on the top rights looks Normal,maybe the bird lacks grooming which can be a sign of health problem but that's not important, the bottom right looks like he has 5 infections and is currently experiencing extreme amounts of pain

I'm talking about the previous pictures not the one with the t rex
Unless if we're on the same page then that thing clearly isn't vulture like it lacks skinfolds as well as a featherless neck and head (Which isn't entirely true for all vulture even scavenger ones)it also looks like it has some kind of infection/inflation on the top right of it nose thingy and
Unless he was trying to depict a sick dinosaur if yes he did an excellent job at it he even made the small detail of keeping the jaw slightly opened for breading as if the creature was struggling to do so

[light osprey]

There’s perhaps some reason to doubt non-avian dinosaurs ever had converged on the vulture condition of bald heads.

[cloud badger]

No the crest is fine it's the redness and yellowish thing on top of it makes it look sick if you get what I mean
Otherwise his art is pretty cool I always like inspiration from irl elements

[glad nimbus]

OH my god bro I love this persons reconstructions
I see them every so oftenly everytime I see them I jump for joy

they're always so creative, I love seeing people take irl elements of lizards, birds, ect and making their own reconstruction of the animal

[tough parcel]

Could you provide these other "super speculative or blantantly 'unrealistic' reconstructions"? Regardless, there's a difference between "unsanitized" and "ugly for the sake of ugly"

[glad nimbus]

I DONT THINK SO show me

[tough parcel]

The more conservative reconstructions he does for comms are fine but his personal reconstructions are just not it. Regardless of how you cut it, there's a point where "display" isn't reconstructed as display but just because "Muh ugly dinosaurs, nature isn't meant to be pretty"

I can provide several examples of birds looking beautiful and sleek, including vultures and ratites

I never said "vendetta", it's your exact thought process given art form

[light osprey]

Actually the dinosaur could not be green, a grave treachery you’ve committed

[cloud badger]

Looks more like overgrowth or malformation due to a deficiency
If anything it looks more like swelling under that crest his art is pretty cool I just pointed out these facts
Also quick question what else did he use as an inspiration because the only vulture thing I see is the red eyes from bearded vultures so I'm kinda curious

[light osprey]

Based on the evidence I can conclude the dinosaurs were not ugly, please consult the fossil

[hallow spear]

God I had vultures being used as a reference for dinosaurs

[glad nimbus]

ngl this is cool to think about you never really see constructions with any type of malformation

[tough parcel]

Yea, I don't like his art but on the basis of the reasons provided

On a technical level, it's masterful but unfortunately, we are discussing the practicality of the reconstruction

[light osprey]

Due to the warm climate of the cenozoic, the vulture requires a bald head to stay cool, unlike the frigid Cretaceous

[hallow spear]

I’m expressing my opinion, and my vast dislike of vultures being an ugly ah reference to use for dinosaurs. I’m not mad at all

[tough parcel]

Everyone uses birds for dinosaurs, he's not an original pariah for doing so

[hallow spear]

Use peacocks they are pretty(not ugly like vultures) and have funny word in the name

[tough parcel]

Less conventional birds being ones that specialized for a specific niche...? Curious...

[cloud badger]

Yeah true or when they do they kinda miss and just give them like a rotting open wound or a jaw turned like 15° to the left and call it a day if he was trying to show off some kind of sickness he did an amazing job even details I just noticed right now like frizzy and ungroomed hair often a sign of health problems in bird

[tough parcel]

Perhaps the emu is not as unkept and ugly as you say...

[hallow spear]

Hello ai powered moderator who I still do not think is real

[dreamy lance]

General chat reminder to remain polite and respectful with other users in this chat.
Please, do not antagonize other users.

If any offending behavior persists, mutes or bans will be applied

[tough parcel]

Another bird you have used that is nowhere near as "ugly" as you claim is normal

[hallow spear]

I like watching a discussion on ugly birds, maybe if we bully the birds hard enough they will become pretty. Like the peacock

[tough parcel]

An ugly grouping of birds perchance...

[hallow spear]

Someone send a bald penguin. Nvm I will

[cloud badger]

How high do you scale marabou stork on the mog chart

[tough parcel]

I love that the thigh is just abnormally large, far beyond what should be on a healthy animal

[hallow spear]

Why it have such a bulbous torso

[cloud badger]

I like them big
I like them chonky

[small geyser]

Chonkasaurus Rex

[cloud badger]

Me likey this one
I think it looks like baby hawk too

[glad nimbus]

HES SO SHRIMPLE
I LOVE THIS GUY
he reminds me of baby vultures and I love baby vultures have you guys seen baby vultures before

[cloud badger]

Not in real life I have seen a golden eagle and a bearded vulture once tho

Why do baby vultures Low-key pose like bro we see the fut @glad nimbus

[glad nimbus]

THEY LOOK LIKE COTTONBALLS I LOVE VULTURES SO MUCH
I'm so happy I get to live around turkey vultures they're my favorite ever

[tough parcel]

This is proof that he can make normal rats

[compact saddle]

Why does it look likes it's smiling?

[solemn lily]

Does anyone know of any up to date Ekrixinatosaurus weight estimates?. Everything I’ve seen so far puts it at 800 kilograms, and I was thinking if Rugops, was 4-5 meters in length and is estimated to be 700 kgs would it be possible that Ekrixinatosaurus, could reach one ton or more in mass considering it was a good amount larger?.

[balmy oyster]

I’m certain of it, but don’t think it’s gotten much updated on it

[calm agate]

Out of curiosity where'd you get such a low mass for Ekrixinatosaurus? The lad weighs in at 1.7 tonnes and I've never in my life seen an estimate for Ekrix under 1.5 tonnes personally

[tough parcel]

What if the Ekrixinatosaurus was made of helium?

[sterile trail]

Beautiful

[stray saddle]

@flat pewter s @zealous ravine itely NOT Dilophosaurus @hardy sentinel @fluid inlet ng Triceratops @warped peak @sullen cairn @Srumis @runic aspen

So, I'm pinging to all the people to with I "debated" yesterday. As I said tomorrow I will have a better explanation for everything, as I would ask a real expert about all of this.

He said he would be briefly "spoiler, he wasn't briefly" I can't say I understand everything he wrote. But I'd say Im not the only one, NOW, IN REGARD OF ALLOSAURUS BITE/CERATO BITE/TORVOSAURUS, here I come: "IM GOING TO COPY PASTE WHAT HE SAID":

I will try to answer briefly and concisely.
About your first question, the specimens used in Sakamoto's paper are DINO 2560 and MWC 1 respectively. 2560 is subadult, definitely not an adult, based on the lack of fusion of the neural arches with their centra and the unfused sacrum. Similarly sized specimens from CLDQ and GP are 9 to 13 year old subadults, so pending histological study about that specific specimen, that range is tentative. BYU 9466 and BYU 8901 skulls are more than 10% bigger than 2560, those 2 are also much more robust, probably at least young adults, and they would certainly exceed 10.000N, if we go with the maximum both skulls of "Overlord" and DMNH, formerly CPS, are over 1m long, the one of DMNH being exceptionally robust, it's dentary is more robust torso ventrally than that of Acrocanthosaurus NCSM 14345 by around 1cm, and based on the proportionally wider skulls, it wouldn't be of surprise if DMNH had a bite force comparable to that of NCSM 14345, around 16000N.
MWC1 on the other hand is the ontogenetically oldest Ceratosaurus, is an old adult of 12 years, there are larger Ceratosaurus but MWC1 was the biggest/heaviest of all, weighing 1200kg. C.sp BYU 12893 from Agate weight is 1120kg, C. dentisulcatus 5278 is longer but lighter, at 1132kg, and the longest Ceratosaurus (sp.) BYU 4963 from DM was likely heavier. Almost all Ceratosaurus specimens that have been found are old adults, keep in mind Ceratosaurus was an unusually fast growing theropod, reaching adulthood and max growth in just 2 years! for example MWC1 liked 10 years more without growing substantially, with 5 LAGs in its EFS. The skull of Ceratosaurus is one of the lightest built of any theropod, laterotemporal fenestra takas much of the space of the rear skull, and the squamosal, quadrate and quadratojugal are very gracile, so it is expected a weak bite force as Sakamoto showed.

[opaque kayak]

explosion happing

[hardy sentinel]

My part of the debate was about Allosaurus aggression and Torvosaurus Tanneri being smaller than Torvosaurus Gyuneri (or however it is spelled) I already know about the Morrison bite forces

[stray saddle]

The lateral crowns of Ceratosaurus are, however, strongly laterally compressed (CBR∼0.3–0.4) whereas those of Torvosaurus (CBR∼0.48) and Allosaurus (CBR∼0.65) are thicker. The mesial and lateral teeth of Allosaurus are, in fact, particularly thick, to a point that this theropod is considered by Hendrickx et al. (2019) and Hendrickx et al. (2020) to have a pachydont dentition similar to that of derived tyrannosaurids, the only theropod genus with that type of dentition in the Morrison, both fragilis, jimmadseni and anax. Therefore Allosaurus is the one with teeth better suited for stronger biteforce, while Ceratosaurus and Torvosaurus had teeth too laterally compressed, indicating some niche partitioning.

[zealous ravine]

I’ll concede the point about the allosaurus bite force but you see why I was skeptical when the paper itself didn’t mention what specimen was used lmao

[stray saddle]

Regarding EFS question, the lack of extensive vascularization in the outer cortex of the periosteal bone is a reliable indicator that the animal reached somatic maturity. It is true that N. lancensis holotype has EFS on its hyoids, indicating it was an old adult, it could still be Tyrannosaurus rex, as there is a high degree of developmental plasticity in therepod taxa. For example an A. jimmadseni from Poison Creek WYO, is around 5m long and has EFS, while a couple of Dry Mesa jimmadseni individuals are more than 9,5m long. This could indicate a strong environmental stress and influence in the growth. Another example is Acrocanthosaurus holotype which is 9,5m long and is much older than NCSM 14345, despite the later being 11,5m long, the golotype has 9 LAGs on EFS, for a no less than 30 year old individual. Meraxes gigas holotype is the best example for the type of slow prolongation growth, with an estimated age of 40 years, and 10,6m long, but the newly discovered Meraxes gigas specimen, the second of this species, is just the opposite, a good example of fast growing "die fast" model, being 12m long and ontogenetically younger than the holotype. For lancensis I would recommend to wait for the paper that is in the works and expected to be published this year, but the implications are interesting.

[zealous ravine]

Yeah I got clarification earlier but forgot to mention, the issue isn’t the efs being unreliable but rather that reliably detecting an efs is difficult

[stray saddle]

Anyway, these 3 messages: for everyone that was yesterday here. I'm out. Peace.

[lofty creek]

this has become wrong now
new specimen has shown that psittaco doesnt have that skin between the body and upper leg
also no colorful butt(anal) for display
those were just misunderstandings since the previous specimen were seriously compressed and deformed

[solemn lily]

I was just searching for size estimates and seeing what popped up. Afterwards I did find some sources putting it at 1-1.5 tons which makes more sense to me it was a rather large animal.

[tough parcel]

What new specimen I am aware that there's a possibility the patagium might've been a misinterpretation of the leg tissue/muscle, but other than that, none of what you're saying is something that has happened to my knowledge

[lofty creek]

in my opinion it's pretty fair to have a weight near or even over 2 tons for a theropod over 7 metres

[lofty creek]

a new paper in April
https://doi.org/10.1038/s42003-022-03749-3

[calm agate]

You are correct, there's no new specimen it was just a misinterpretation caused by the taphonomy of the existing P.sp specimen

[tough parcel]

Evidence I am always right?

Also the coloration misinterpretation applies? Or is that another thing wrong from Mizu's statement

[calm agate]

Sort of, the colour is a bit more diffused but the cloacal area on this individual is darker than the surrounding skin indicating it was probably darker in life.

[tough parcel]

Yea, so nothing really changes except maybe the patagium

[calm agate]

The Patagium 100% is taphonomic, it likely was heavily reduced compared to how people were originally reconstructing it. You can tell when looking at the slab that most of the animals soft tissue was uh, smeared post-mortem

[tough parcel]

Why was he smeared post-mortem 💔 who stepped on it 💔

[lofty creek]

I mean some artists made that butt red
pure red
like a mouth
thats impossible now

[calm agate]

I've not seen such reconstructions but I'm sure those exist. The original paper only ever claimed it was black however and people making it red were simply not reading it.

[tough parcel]

I feel like that was impossible from the beginning? Yea, I've only ever heard it as "darkly colored"

[flint sluice]

https://youtube.com/shorts/cG-N0QmLrxo?si=825dXMPeyMBiMqRF i would like to request our anky get the ability to do mongolian throat singing please and thank you~

two very good comments as well

[hardy sentinel]

Why are the babies quadrupeds

[wind prairie]

arrggh I missed ugly paleoart discussion

[fluid inlet]

He ate, he indeed did come back this time.

[stray saddle]

Jesus always resurrects.

I'm sorry yesterday I couldn't check sources as it was too late. But I told you.. I would come tomorrow hehe

[stable sun]

Deltadromeus is not Bahariasaurus

[stable sun]

I've seen the new paper. I disagree.

Here's why:

The cervical is short and strongly opisthocoelous, completely unlike Noasaurid cervicals (which are very elongated and not opisthocoelous), but like cervicals of many other taxa, most notably Megaraptorana. The sacrals have pleurocoels, unlike any member of Ceratosauria and this is only known in Tetanurae. The scapulacoracoid indicates a very robust humerus and large arms, completely unlike Noasaurids. This is known from the very large glenoid fossa. Deltadromeus has a very thin, Noasaurid-like humerus. The middle caudals of Bahariasaurus and Deltadromeus aren't similar.

The proposed character shared between it and Deltadromeus is one single distal ischium character ("anteroposteriorly enlarged distal foot with long axis forming a 120° angle with the long axis of the ischial shaft"). This is very weak evidence. I will look for other taxa with this character. Beyond that, there's completely zero evidence it is a Noasarid. This is not much compared to the evidence it is not a Noasaurid, but a Tetanuran.

[timber kiln]

i know that
the paper want to lump both
which alot of peeps(and me) disagree on

[hallow spear]

has Berthasaura been compared to Baharia

[stable sun]

Bahariasaurus and Deltadromeus are not the same.

[stable sun]

yeah they're not similar

[balmy oyster]

They are similar but I don’t think ontogenic variation is enough to confirm synonymy between the 2

I do wonder what the osteology of deltadromeus is considering the size discrepancy between it and bahariasaurus

[balmy oyster]

I should make a reconstruction for all the new described stuff it would be funny

[hardy sentinel]

When was the last common ancestor of Torosaurus and Triceratops? Saw a question on reddit about Torosaurus and Triceratops interbreeding, and whenever I disagree people bring up Bison and Cattle

I did see that Titanoceratops is thought to be the common ancestor (Nick Longrich) which lived 80-70 million years ago (20ish million years before the time of Trike and Toro), I wanna see if this has been refuted or not and frankly I trust yall more than google AI

[balmy oyster]

It’s…complicated.

My best guess seems to be some sort of slog revolving around Torosaurus cf. utahensis and referred Torosaurus latus specimens like the MPM VP & EM P16 specimens. Do note that this is my take, since Chasmosaurine phylogeny is absolutely all over the place and for any better clarification for at least within triceratopsini we need more postcranial descriptions.

[zealous ravine]

I do find the possibility of Delta and Bertha being related interesting, I think of the herbivorous Noasaurs it’s more likely than elaphrosaurs

[balmy oyster]

(realized you said Bertha not baharia nvm)

[brave stump]

How complete are Edmon fossils ?

[warped peak]

Thank you Shaochilong very cool

[stable sun]

My name is Torvosaurus (on discord).

[warped peak]

Isn't your discord name Cedarosaurus

[stable sun]

well both

[warped peak]

Bruhathkayosaurus holotype

[sterile trail]

Oh so it's an Abelisaurid?

[manic grail]

Trex but he got stung by bees

[alpine island]

T. tanneri and gurneyi are nigh identical in size

[fluid inlet]

For me it’s not my style at all but a few of his artworks I have liked , like the Giga he did.

[frigid delta]

when was the first time we h. sapiens shows up?

[warped peak]

210 KYA, potentially as far back as 310 KYA based off of skull fragments

[wind prairie]

could pachystruthio have lived into the late pleistocene?

[manic grail]

I love that dilophosaurus lol

[near pulsar]

The whiskers are a really neat touch i dont think ive ever seen that in paleoart

[fluid inlet]

He’s waking up

[ashen wedge]

Nah, he do all that

[zealous ravine]

Gonna be real, as cool as that Dilo is, it doesnt seem to match the fossil that well

[fluid inlet]

We know what he is…

[tough parcel]

They're correct?

[balmy oyster]

Correct? Is it that she is correct?

The Crests on dilo reconstructions are always variable but even the general skull shape does not match actual dilo’s skull proportions

[zealous ravine]

Ooh this one’s much better, I like this

P sure this is Sinosaurus based on the smaller crests

Sinosaurus for reference

Though this specimen is crushed a bit, would probably look closer to this in life

[manic grail]

Wait what if spinos sail was like this in feathers. Looks so much different lol

[outer tusk]

I geniuely don;t get this

[zealous ravine]

The reason it looks different isn’t cause feathers, it’s cause this art has an outdated sail lol

[fluid inlet]

Not a chance in hell

[outer tusk]

closer to this a very smooth semi-cricle shape

[manic grail]

Oh i see lol

[zealous ravine]

Was referring to the snout, that image I sent is of a non-crushed specimen of the same species

Phylogenetic bracketing suggests spinosaurs would have some sort of feathering but there’s no direct evidence either way and I doubt it would be that thick, particularly on spino. They also totally could have lost it but in the absence of impressions the most parsimonious idea would theoretically be that they did.

[manic grail]

Paleo accurate deinosuchus

[tough parcel]

This is a better Citipati because it is epic and better (also puts the keratin on the proper areas)

[light osprey]

I still think it’s ugly

[tough parcel]

That isn't very paleoart of you...

[manic grail]

Paleo accurate plesiosaur

[hardy sentinel]

Is the question "Could Torosaurus and Triceratops produce offspring" dumb to anyone else? Like when you look at them for more than 2 minutes you can tell they are basically just as similar as any other 3 horned Chasmosaurine

[balmy oyster]

I mean it does also matter a little bit since if they’re too unrelated then it wouldn’t work, but I’d imagine if we stick to more closely related hypothetical hybrids such as toro & trike then it should be plausible to an extent

[warped peak]

Pachyracosaurys

[balmy oyster]

Conquest…

I don’t even get a real name…

[manic grail]

https://tenor.com/view/transformers-2-ending-transformers-revenge-of-the-fallen-transformers-2-transformers-ending-optimus-prime-and-sam-gif-1594858289032539525

Why is 100 men vs 1 gorilla even a debate lol. Its clear that 100 men would win. People think of gorillas as king kong i think

[hardy sentinel]

hey guys, can someone tell me how to properly edit wikipedia articles? I think I messed sum up

[rich vessel]

Real question is why would they even fight to begin with.

[manic grail]

Its just a hypothetical thing but yea

[hardy sentinel]

I was looking at the Chasmosaurine page, and saw that Torosaurus latus and "Torosaurus" utahensis were placed as different clade, and despite T. utahensis being controversial for some reason it's still placed there. So I tried to change it around so T. latus and T. utahensis are in the same clade now now T. utahensis is orange and in a different spot after I edited it

[rich vessel]

I just worry some dummies are gonna break into a gorilla enclosure and disturb the gorillas

[manic grail]

Lol lets hope not

[rich vessel]

Yep, it’s stupidity like that gets people in trouble or killed

[manic grail]

Yes. Unless you're me you are not going to win against a gorilla in a fight

[rich vessel]

Are you saying you can or can’t? (I get confused sometimes)

[manic grail]

Im saying i can

[wind prairie]

now this is how you do an ugly dinosaur

[hardy sentinel]

Is this phylogenetic tree properly set up to show the genera Torosaurus, Titanoceratops, Nedoceratops and Triceratops as relatives with no distinction on which ones are more closely related to each other?

Also is this correct?

[fluid inlet]

🦍

[zealous ravine]

yes

[rich vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/wait-hmmm-spd-snl-keenan-wait-a-minute-gif-4613624706191902425

[hardy sentinel]

What I find hilarious is Achillobator was nearly the dromeosaurid equal of Latenivenatrix (slim, built for speed, and similar height) irl and so PoT basically had to make a brand new dino with a Achillos name just so it stands out from Laten

[manic grail]

Is laten valid?

[hardy sentinel]

good question, it could be Stenonychosaurus but the most we got on if Laten is valid or not is basically a single sentence saying it might be individual variation in Stenonychosaurus

so as of right now until someone does further study, Laten is a distinct genus but is most likely dubious

[wind prairie]

I wouldn't call achillobator "built for speed" just take a look at those legs

[hardy sentinel]

Having arguments in Instagram reels comment sections about if dinosaurs had feathers or not is tiring (this mf thinks only Coelurosaurians had feathers)

[tough parcel]

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjes-2020-0145

We actually know a lot more than you presume about dinosaurs

The assumption we “don’t know anything” or “very little” kinda does a disservice towards the people working on it and similar areas. Process of elimination, not process of “Well you weren’t there”

[severe yew]

why are ya'll always arguing, lmao

[tough parcel]

Me when people don’t agree with everything I say

Slow mode killing me fr

[jagged trellis]

how not to have engaging convos:
( but yeah turning it into just" well we don't know EVERYTHING" is like saying a lion might be purple because well we don't know how they think!!)

[tough parcel]

But real talk: the assumption it’s an “argument” is the exact mindset that causes it to snowball into one. A paleontology chat is always going to have debates and disagreements because there can be different ways to interpret the data we have or workshop proposed ideas.

Having a mindset that any slight disagreement = hostile argument results in you not learning and the other parties becoming hostile because no-one likes talking to brick walls with flimsy or poorly thought-out support

[jagged trellis]

majungasaurus

how many specimens of psittacosaurus do we have btw
isn't it potentially hundreds

[severe yew]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-meme-fight-gif-25469942

[severe yew]

like someone says the wrong thing and it suddenly turns into a cat fight, lol

[thorn grove]

tbf that's just the internet, but yea it gets really annoying at times

A lot of it is Dunning-Kruger type stuff, people learn a little bit about a subject and that small amount of knowledge boosts their confidence to the point they start talking down to people even if those people know more than them. Basically you need to know a certain amount about a subject before you can even appreciate just how much there is to know about that subject.

That is just a natural part of learning about a subject, usually people will get over it eventually but not always.

[wind prairie]

I got a good argument...
how do you guys feather your thescelosaurids, dryosaurids, and elasmarians? if you do?

I wish I could have a stenonychosaurus as a pet

based on dryosaurids' relations, and a thescelosaurus skin impression showing scales, these two groups I'd do mostly scaly

[fluid inlet]

You got the blocked scared but you ain’t got me scared big boy

Love coelophysis. 🫀

[wind prairie]

that's sinosauropteryx

oh shoot am I getting baited

[thorn grove]

I'd like to think I avoid hostilities as much as I can (though I imagine there's evidence to the contrary, lol), but I agree that it can be frustrating seeing someone who knows less than you being arrogant about the knowledge they think they have.

I don't think I acted very arrogant but when I first joined this chat I definitely had moments where I overreached in terms of how much I thought I knew about some subjects and chat pretty quickly brought the hammer down lmao, it's just about realizing there are still people who know more than you and there always will be, but there are also many people who know less than you and it's better to view those as teachable moments even if they can be annoying.

[thorn grove]

I like using glue and some of those feather pens, the dinosaur usually doesn't like it very much though admittedly

but funny

[lavish frigate]

Do we know what the leg feathers were like on non microraptor Dromaeosaurs? I’m curious as to if the big guys might have had the same type of leg feathering

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/raftingzalmoxes/status/1919603681734885687?s=46 Torvosaurus back

Palaeoncryptozoologist Briton (@raftingzalmoxes) on X

#DinosaurRevolution #WWD2025
The eye of Gurney's Savage Lizard, then and now...

X · May 6, 2025, 4:02 AM

[velvet sequoia]

Is there really nearly complete or fully complete sauropods?

[safe forum]

What’s the average and largest reliable estimates of argentinasaurus?

[steady smelt]

I got a question: how heavy is Dimetrodon Angelensis

[manic grail]

Is it true that megalodons new size estimates are 24 meters and that it probably looked more like a lemon shark?

[hardy sentinel]

can someone tell me why a creatist museum has their hands on one of the most preserved Allosaurus specimens? (Ebenezer)

[remote shadow]

Money most likely

[sonic wraith]

Is miragaia valid again?

[outer tusk]

yes

[bitter quest]

Yes and no, odd position rn

[remote shadow]

Wouldn’t be a sauropod like without a resounding “maybe”

[balmy oyster]

Are they gatekeeping it or trying to sell it off for an auction

[zealous ravine]

They bought it

[hardy sentinel]

but why? What reason would a museum which actively does not believe in an old earth buy the one of the many things that proves an old earth (a dinosaur)

[zealous ravine]

Sorry they didn’t buy it, it was donated, but I imagine they have it to try and give their “museum” more credibility to the public

[hardy sentinel]

i'd like to meet the nutjob that hated dinosaur research so much that they donated a mostly complete Allosaurus to a place that would never study it

[wind prairie]

I mean credit where credit is due, they have the iconic cotylorhynchus

[balmy oyster]

At least if they ever decide to make a living reconstruction of it they’ll do a good job.

Creationists are creationists but they do know how to make accurate prehistoric animals.

[wind prairie]

well, that is until you get to known feathered non avian reptiles

[stray saddle]

Actually☝️🤓, the craneum is one of the most complete yes. But the rest of the body there are only 2 cervical vertebrae and 2 caudal vertebrae out of 68 in total.

BUT YES, it's very sad its in a museum like that. Very, very sad.

[balmy oyster]

These also look good

Anatomy is…off definitely, but tbh compared to a lot of other actual museum models I’ve seen there is an attempt at the anatomy

[light osprey]

This is because the Pterosaurus is scaled

[hardy sentinel]

my favorite hobby is going back to "Dinosaurs spotted in real life" videos and seeing now outdated versions of dinosaurs. It's so easy to see what is fake in a constantly changing feild

[safe forum]

Thank you

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/tm9380/status/1920153824372638164?s=46 I must of missed the paper

Taylor McCoy 🦖 (@TM9380) on X

Today a new herrerasaur was announced. I noticed some comments regarding how it’s “just bits of the hips and leg.” In these guys, that’s actually an important bit to have. Unlike later dinosaurs(minus ankylosaurs), they don’t have a fully perforated acetabulum!

X · May 7, 2025, 4:28 PM

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/mapusart23/status/1920271641721930116?s=46 someone translate

Mapusart_23 (Commissions open!) (@Mapusart23) on X

NEW GIGA MATERIAL

X · May 8, 2025, 12:16 AM

[stiff osprey]

''In August 1993, paleontologists Leonardo Salgado and Rodolfo Coria and team excavated the first remains of Giganotosaurus carolinii, a gigantic cretaceous theropod - now, in April 2025, we returned to the site of this story with friends and colleagues from the Museo Ernesto Bachman and the UNED in Madrid

We found new remains of Giganotosaurus

Stay tuned, great news soon''

[warped peak]

Neat

[opaque kayak]

Now what I am wondering is this more stuff from the holotype, or a new specimen

[zealous ravine]

Oh sick, can't wait to see what comes of this

[fluid inlet]

Interesting that they instantly find some new material after not going there again for decades.

My questions is what took so long to back? Like people should be going back to that formation where the huge Indian sauropod was found. They can’t afford to go back?

[fossil ingot]

Spanish!!!
Tremendo

[lavish frigate]

Every time I step into that room…I can feel the presence of the great evil that has trapped my boy Ebenezer in there…

It beckons me back into the darkness of young earth creationism..

But I do not yield…one day Ebenezer…I will free you….

[lavish frigate]

I also think they assisted in the excavation to an extent, but I could be wrong

[velvet burrow]

Jesus Christ
New gig
Oh my f*cking god a new gig

[balmy oyster]

Holy moly this is probably one of the best years for megatheropod paleontology

[fluid inlet]

Fr

[hallow spear]

I’m gonna remove you from the land of the living buddy

[balmy oyster]

[wind prairie]

what'd he even do

[manic grail]

GIGAnotosaurus

[balmy oyster]

exist

[true urchin]

was tylosaurus bonker updated? how big was it

[fluid inlet]

Which skeletal

[fossil ingot]

His Giga from this Year lol
Which is like his 3rd Giga skeletal update lol

[outer tusk]

Dan has updated his giga more than 3 times lmao

[opaque kayak]

Wait till you see the number of Liam power giga + spino skeletals

[fossil ingot]

Real

[opaque kayak]

I love how taurovenator was named after some random ahh farm, but that farm name just happened to be the most awesome species name ever

[manic grail]

Wait chat is this actually possible

[manic grail]

What is this deformed thing. Also why does it have overlapping bones

[opaque kayak]

In order to support the massive hump on it's back

[manic grail]

Sorry but im confused

[opaque kayak]

It's Humpsaurus aegyptiacus, a species of spinosaurid with a massive hump on it's back

[thorn zinc]

"Humpasaurus"

Giggidy.

[fluid inlet]

Almost as bad as this

[wind prairie]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/627284075119640576/885653949003202570/image0.gif

[balmy oyster]

No

[manic grail]

Why not

[balmy oyster]

Different kinds of dorsal vertebrae & with different muscle attachments

[manic grail]

I think i understand

[crisp spire]

do you guys like tyrannosaurini?

[lavish frigate]

It took everything in me to not all caps scream “DO WHAT TO A SAURUS?!”

[tough parcel]

Me when I LIE (Why do you think Dan was able to update his Giga )

Remember…Dan is a student so he has access to student technology meaning he can locate the Giganotosaurus bones while in the ground

[balmy oyster]

It’s not that he has special technology to do it, he can just do that. Like he has sonar he can use to find objects underground.

[thorn zinc]

Gluc Gluc 65million

[pliant cedar]

[velvet burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/mater-cars-tow-mater-pixar-he-did-what-in-his-cup-gif-15734025

[steady rock]

So whata new abt giga now?

[hardy sentinel]

Someone just tried telling me shrink wrapping in dinosaurs is reliable 🥀🥀🥀

Instagram comments house the dumbest people

[brave stump]

This is how I expect bars to look like when he will get his tlc released (hopefully soon)

[supple verge]

Nah, sock puppets Superior

[hardy sentinel]

The vertebrae above the back legs need to be raised a bit

[brave stump]

You’re right

[prisma hawk]

I’ll be happy if we get anything close to this

[slim stratus]

THIS

[brave stump]

Will be this at 100%

[frigid delta]

the things that would happened if Theri's still here with us:
https://x.com/yurixtinction/status/1919845005587579075?t=trDAAOx3z0F-NmV-RvoJdg&s=19

em (@yurixtinction) on X

Therizinosaurus show 🎪🎠

X · May 6, 2025, 8:01 PM

[compact saddle]

[manic grail]

I would cook and eat theri

[compact saddle]

Am i the only one who noticed the theri's claws are missing?

[hardy sentinel]

Wish I had my laptop on me, I wanna draw Barsboldia

[manic grail]

So it wont be dangerous in the circus

[compact saddle]

Yeah that's what i was thinking.

[stiff osprey]

Considering there's over two feet of bone in those claws, their removal must have been extremely painful

[compact saddle]

Yup. Poor thing must be in pain

[hardy sentinel]

I'd imagine they would do it the same way someone would declaw a cat 😞

Very painfully and inhumanely

[hardy sentinel]

This artist is lowkey goated, I love how realistic this stuff is to how humans would actually react to non-avian dinosaurs still living with us

https://x.com/yurixtinction/status/1916926741521830315?t=-et2pn1a3fcsc80KzoWGqQ&s=19

em (@yurixtinction) on X

gigantoraptor trophy..🏆

X · Apr 28, 2025, 6:45 PM

[lavish frigate]

HOLY PEAK

[hardy sentinel]

https://x.com/yurixtinction/status/1916947580921254375?t=OQvXTvpVpbWFGhov1NJI2g&s=19

Peak indeed

em (@yurixtinction) on X

net fishing

X · Apr 28, 2025, 8:08 PM

[lavish frigate]

Beautiful

Although the lips on the plesiosaur are uncanny

[hallow spear]

i reckon the majority of dinosaurs would be protected, especially Stegosaurs, Ceratopsians and anything with a large non soft tissue display structure that can rack up money, like Ceratopsian skulls, Stegosaur plates etc

[hardy sentinel]

You know what wouldn't be protected?

https://x.com/yurixtinction/status/1913789194620850524?t=Q83Ce-vu4M_iSHz818bl1Q&s=19

https://x.com/yurixtinction/status/1912920035934478344?t=OkagOT92gDbHSwX5rXXsUQ&s=19

This artist is genuinely peak, like I see a lot of artists making dinosaurs and humans co-existing as friends or whatever, but this artist actually makes an accurate representation

em (@yurixtinction) on X

camptosaurus farm part 2

X · Apr 20, 2025, 2:57 AM

em (@yurixtinction) on X

camptosaurus farm

X · Apr 17, 2025, 5:24 PM

[brave stump]

How complete is Edmon skeleton?

[hardy sentinel]

Which species?

[brave stump]

I don’t mind

[hardy sentinel]

I think we have most of the bones from Annectens due to bonebeds (exepct some stuff on the hips), and most from regalis including a soft comb preserved (but we still lack some of the head like a lower jaw)

[stiff osprey]

both of them are known from complete skeletons although iirc regalis is missing the tail tip (annectens has it, but it's undescribed)

[steady rock]

How complete is amargasaurus 🥰

[hardy sentinel]

Yall reckon E. Annectens had a comb too?

Also is Ugrunaaluk dubious now? If so is it a new species of Edmontosaurus or just an E. Regalis?

[stiff osprey]

none of the annectens mummies has a comb, however a) there's only like 3 of them and b) at least two are juveniles so who knows

[hardy sentinel]

Were the full mummies or just parts that were mummified? If the heads were mummified I'd like to take a look at them.

Also do you know how grown they were? You mentioned they were juveniles but at which age (months, years etc). Combs do start development early in life for birds (even though in this case the combs are convergent)

The chickens shown are roughly 3 weeks to 2 months old

[opaque kayak]

Guys is this how Dinosaur skeletons in museums are produced?

Seems like animal cruelty

[stiff osprey]

None are full mummies, Dakota (the largest one) is missing the head while the one with the best preserved skull is like 7-8 meters long (so a few years old)

Though a chicken is fully grown in under six months, so i reckon the comb would take much longer to appear in a large nonavian dinosaur

[hardy sentinel]

https://x.com/TheDarknix/status/1920301260084842850?t=Y-HgZBvczVOEUOFKy27Cjg&s=19

Does anyone know what material they found? I don't speak this language and can't find anything on google aside from some crappy AI overview

The Darknix (@TheDarknix) on X

DINO NEWS!!!!

NEW GIGANOTOSAURUS CAROLINII MATERIAL!!!!

After 29 years we can saw we have more Giganotosaurus carolinii material. Lets see which pieces do they have found.

Are you excited about this?
#dinosaur #dinosaurs #Argentina

X · May 8, 2025, 2:14 AM

[tulip gyro]

i wish the 2 new discovered croc species would have been this viral, they just got ignored

[hardy sentinel]

https://x.com/poorplpeasant/status/1920153438098255916?t=itpk5ajuBcGfivrXWQK6fg&s=19

What do y'all think of this speculative coloration for Iggy? Would probably work wonders for intimidation

hydra (@poorplpeasant) on X

Iguanodon Pt.2 (now in color!)

X · May 7, 2025, 4:27 PM

[opaque kayak]

"Stay tuned = wait for 7 years gng" btw

[hardy sentinel]

Paleontologists try not to tell you what they found and then immediately assign it to a genus challenge

[scenic flame]

good point, if they haven't gone over the characters yet then it may be too soon to assume it's giga specifically

[hardy sentinel]

Be a Paleontologist

Find a fossil

Assign it to a popular genus and species

Don't release what you even found for 20 years

Refuse to elaborate

(No hate on Paleontologists, they just tend to do this way to often)

Like vro just call it Charcharodontosauridae indent. and don't get too cocky until people can actually look at what you found 🥀🥀🥀

Like bro Argentina has some of the most mega charchs out there

[steady rock]

Who's the more accurate small sauropod? Magy isle vs amarga PoT

[crystal dock]

Erm, it's indet not indent ?

[compact saddle]

PoT Amarg imo.

[hardy sentinel]

Same thing (autocorrect)

[steady rock]

Does isle magy match any sauropod

[hardy sentinel]

Wdym? It matched Magy pretty decently

[steady rock]

It does?? It looks like a saltosaurid instead of magy to me

[hardy sentinel]

Most Titanosaurs are thought to have had armor too, not just Saltasaurids (also Saltasaurids are Titanosaurs so that's why they look so similar)

[hallow spear]

It does not

[hardy sentinel]

What makes you say that? Looking at Magy's concept art and not at the ones where it's legs are doing weird stuff it matches Magy

Like sure, the neck length and head shape is a bit weird but that's classic isle stuff, otherwise it matches the dwarf sauropod great

[wind prairie]

oh no I hope the video I'm watching doesn't get interrupted by an awesome iguanodon tribute

[woeful falcon]

It has a muppet for its chest

[hallow spear]

That’s not right though

[jagged trellis]

the isle magy is about as much of a magy as jwd giga is a giga
( why are they gonna make that thing run like a horse)

[zealous ravine]

Everything below the neck is great, the neck and head not so much lol. Actually wait I think it has claws on the hands lmao

[normal fable]

Yeah the body has some decent sauropod anatomy but the design as a whole does not realistically match any sauropod

[scenic flame]

TI's Magy is many things and I wouldn't personally call it a bad design purely from an artistic standpoint, however it is in no way accurate to the IRL animal.

[normal fable]

It's a creature that vaguely resembles a sauropod

[scenic flame]

higher res skeletal

[scenic flame]

just on that, I've just noticed how it seems odly front heavy, with a small waist/pelvis region and a really beefy chest

[normal fable]

I think the thickness of the neck, the addition of the dewlap, and the size of the head contribute to that front heavy look. To me personally the proportions of the body seem pretty balanced(on the model at least, the design sketch looks very unbalanced)

[remote shadow]

they've just been skipping leg day for like 50 million years. Bad jokes being bad aside....

WHat is going on with the bottom of it's neck

[crystal dock]

OMG ITS ZAXH, I LOVE YOUR WORKA

[ionic crescent]

None if we use accuracy as some strict term. PoT amarga barely has scales and we know diplodocids had up to 7 kind of scales for it's whole body, nothing similar to elephant like texture

I don't even think I need to say what's wrong on magy tho as it speaks for itself LoL

[scenic flame]

I don't think it's at all certain all diplodocids had 7 scale types, I think it'd be better to say that could certainly have up to 7 based off of just diplodocus itself specifically.
Also the question was in regards to which was more accuracte, in which Amarga is the clear answer

[ionic crescent]

Definitely amarga, specially since it also has the two "spiked neck" theories (covered and not covered), so it has no error margin lol

[jagged trellis]

one is a oc
the other is amarga

[wind prairie]

could iguanodon IRL bend itself enough to do that small carnivore kill animation it has from jurassic world evolution where it kicks them?

[manic grail]

Maybe if you name it ben dover

[steady rock]

Do we have knowledge on spefically dicreosaurid scales? I'd love to see them

Or

All the different type of diplodocus scales

[sudden wind]

It depends : if, as they dung out the fossil, they found elements which are autapomorphic to G.carolini it may be G.carolini or something very closely related to it.

[normal fable]

We don't have anything from dicraeosaurs, just diplodocus and a titanosaur embryo(and plenty of footprints with scale impressions)

Here's the titanosaur, it's a pretty amazing specimen

And I would think that everything we have from diplo would be applicable to dicraeosaurs

[manic grail]

What is the biggest terrestrial crocodile ever found?(the ones with long legs)

[warped peak]

Fasolasuchus, or Barainasuchus depending on how you classify

[stiff osprey]

The humble santa maria dorsal vert

[tough parcel]

One day your egotistical attitude will RUIN paleontology...

[stiff osprey]

Brazilian man BREAKS EMBARGO by talking about an abstract you can Google from 3 years ago

[fluid inlet]

Random u watching Jose Aldo fight this Saturday

[halcyon cobalt]

do we have any evidence of any ornithischian eating meat

[wind prairie]

there was that hadrosaur with a crab in its stomach, and that was probably by accident
I think that's it

[stiff osprey]

Never heard of him before now, cool scar tho

^Silesaurus (probably ornithischian) has coprolites attributed to it with beetle remains as well. although idk if you consider insects or crabs meat

[fluid inlet]

He’s a Brazilian legend that’s why I asked , ya very known for that scar across his face

[honest cobalt]

How big is Leeds now?

I remember it was originally huge

[manic grail]

What makes an archosaur an archosaur? Like is there a trait that every archosaur has without any exception?

[warped peak]

Mineralized eggshells IIRC

[wind prairie]

what visually distinguishes thescelosaurids and elasmarians

[manic grail]

But turtles lay those too. Isnt there a trait only archosaus share between all of them

[warped peak]

Turtle eggs aren't properly mineralized, they're leathery

[light osprey]

Their skeleton

[rancid dove]

16 meters max and 12 for average adulte irl but in game idk

[manic grail]

What about this?

Here the link to the article:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9358755/figure/joa13723-fig-0002/

[fossil ingot]

12.5m for Largest Leed
Idk weight

[wind prairie]

elasmaria has got to be the most underrated dinosaur clade 🙏

[plucky basin]

the first thing that came to my head when i saw this was "land-monkey" for some reason

[severe yew]

Wow...

https://youtu.be/PjryN2F6fF0?feature=shared

[outer tusk]

How big was dirceaosaurus

[fluid inlet]

Big

[warped peak]

27m wide and half a meter thick

Contrary to popular belief, Sauropod symmetry runs down the width axis, not the length acces

Meaning that the left side is the front of the sauropod

[velvet burrow]

Where's this art from?

[wind prairie]

Ddinodan

[balmy oyster]

Best one

[hardy sentinel]

Since we've selected to make dogs maintain neotenic traits to appear cuter (curled tail, floppy ears, bigger eyes) why have we not done this with cats? I want a forever kitten fr

[balmy oyster]

Maybe we shouldn’t proceed to do what we did with dogs but this time with cats…

Case in point, look what happens.

[hardy sentinel]

Yeah but those aren't nessecarily keeping neotenic traits, thats just messing up stuff because it looks cuter. Maintaining neotenic traits is done in dogs without adverse side effects

[rich vessel]

I remember scientists made bioluminescent cats

[hardy sentinel]

Like Gold Retrievers and other labs for example keep a great amount of Neotenic wolf traits, so why couldn't we just breed for progressively smaller cats without causing issues?

[scenic flame]

I assume the thing is you'd have to be careful and avoid inbreeding even if 2 individuals have desirable traits

[balmy oyster]

Breeding for smaller & larger sizes has its own can of worms too as it can introduce more health issues in dogs, mainly with joint issues

Though as Vividsky said this is usually due to inbreeding & general careless breeding of which health issues become more prominent throughout generations and aren’t contained properly

[steady rock]

weird question but, would marine reptiles be able to dive deeper then modern sea mammals, same or more shallow?

[wind prairie]

I don't see why there would be a difference on average

[fluid inlet]

Didn’t realize that there was this much giga material

[frigid delta]

what did this guy even do until he got called 'Problematicus'?

[sterile trail]

He looks like he's got a problem, to be fair

[wind prairie]

I mean just look at him

[sharp dragon]

That's a Problematicus Leedsicthys if i've ever seen one.

[manic grail]

I had leedsicthys in jurassic park builder

[rancid dove]

based on a recent estimate?? it's 12 meters now...sad

so it's a slot 5 ?

[drifting meteor]

When will the „microraptor“ come out im waiting since half a year 😭

[manic grail]

Probably before 2050 so no worries

[keen yew]

And iirc it has a bad description

[balmy oyster]

Not for long it won’t

[white matrix]

i wonder if tyrannotitan and giga are the same animal ngl

[crisp spire]

hi brolak

[crisp spire]

also i dont know a lot about this science paleo stuff but i remember giga being closest related to tyrannotitan

[white matrix]

what’s up joe

[hybrid spindle]

It’s kinda got the posture to be able to do it

[crisp spire]

maybe idk but with all pot spino looks rn it would look kinda strange

[hybrid spindle]

Pot spino definitely needs a visual tlc

[outer tusk]

favorite dinosaur posting

[steady rock]

Which dinosaur In PoT has the least amount of material?

[native kindle]

hatzegopteryx

closest competitor is probably metri, bars, eo? im not too sure on how much material of kai we have but i doubt its super incomplete

[manic grail]

I just realized we never got an epic trike vs rex fight in jurassic park/world. They didnt make the most iconic dinosaur fight lol

[steady rock]

Really? Hatz? I thought it'd have atleast a okay amount

[stray saddle]

They are not. Tyranotitan was smaller

In game Tyranotitan is Giga sized, as well as it has a subspecies that it's literally a Giga

[undone rapids]

Also they're seperated by like 10-18ish million years

[native kindle]

Nearly every large-ish azhdarchid has pretty garbage remains, even Q. nothropi iirc

[steady rock]

Ooh alright, is it due to fragile their bones are?

[drifting arch]

Saw this and had to share, I never know honestly what this prehistoric creature is even remotely related to nowadays.

[fallow mulch]

https://x.com/Sketchy_raptor/status/1920783572299870288

Dr Matt Dempsey (@Sketchy_raptor) on X

Published today in Biological Reviews:

"New perspectives on body size and shape evolution in dinosaurs" - the biggest paper from my PhD (my favourite chapter, too).

https://t.co/XxmBGTCRxd

Here's a thread outlining some of our key findings. (1/10)

X · May 9, 2025, 10:11 AM

[frosty cedar]

The Last Tyrant short film by Dead Sound has the same vibe, also amazing.

[severe yew]

i just saw it

damn, its truly horrible when you take a moment to really try to imagine how the last moments happened 😔

[frosty cedar]

It's beautiful as well, stylization is unparalleled.

[scenic flame]

nah it's hatze by far compared to those

[steady rock]

How much material does hatz have?

[scenic flame]

right has definite, left has what could be hatze but it's inceratain

[zealous ravine]

Some interesting takeaways: they have some qualitative evidence that Shrinkwrapping is wrong, Acro is also found on average to be about as heavy as Rex (9 tons) with volumetric estimates, while limb proportions place it much lighter.

[warped peak]

9 ton Acro definitely seems off gonna be honest

I could see 7 tons but thats a 60% increase from GDIs bases off of every measurement of the animal

[honest cobalt]

Chonk

[fluid inlet]

I mean it makes sense for what their reasoning was a pretty detailed paper.

[rancid dove]

7 ton for elder acro💀

[zealous ravine]

Dempsey’s acro model is based directly on scans of the specimens and shows somewhat different proportions from existing recons, sadly I don’t believe it’s been published just yet but the estimates in this paper are probably going to be the most accurate out there for these specimens as a lot of rigorous work went into them

[warped peak]

Acro being the largest Carcharodontosaur would be funny with how ugly it is

[zealous ravine]

And something he pointed out is that acro has by far the biggest discrepancy between mass based on limb proportions and volumetric mass of any tested dinosaur, so it had weirdly thin legs, which may have been compensated for by a much straighter leg posture

This is Sinraptor, Acro, and Rex

[fluid inlet]

Acrocanthosaurus not ugly , it’s a chad.

[zealous ravine]

Acro is legit the best carch and it’s not even close. Basal ass skull on a massive body. Look how similar the skull is to Conc lmao.

[warped peak]

It is definitely ugly because of that and you can't deny that

Whether that makes it good or not is up to the viewer. I like a lot of mammals BECAUSE they're ugly

[zealous ravine]

Dempsey’s recon

[balmy oyster]

Irritator is cool

[pallid quartz]

I like suchomimuses

[ionic crescent]

oh hey, Monster Resurrected Acro

[white matrix]

yeah but what if titan was just a younger giga . their skeletons are nearly identical

[meager breach]

What is everybody’s opinion on raptors?

[balmy oyster]

Me when different morphology, formations, and periods of time:

[fluid inlet]

Did you miss the part of where they are separated by 10-12 million years

[balmy oyster]

This is also wrong, giga has no subspecies. If you mean mapusaurus, pretty sure as of current phylogeny it’s closer to meraxes than giga

[stray saddle]

I mean just in game lol

[balmy oyster]

🗿

[fossil ingot]

9t seems implausible for it tbh
If Acro is 9t, Rex might as well be 18t

[fossil ingot]

Specially when Bro ain't even Chunk

Truly 9t....

[balmy oyster]

That? 9 tons?

Are we sure Dempsey did his calculations right…?

[fossil ingot]

This Rex is closer to Stan, Wankel and AMNH 5027 in size then it is to Sue.
9t Acro is jsut...wrong
Ngl

[stiff osprey]

why are we using a random drawing that's not from the paper as indicator of the model's accuracy

but yes 8.4t acro is sus

[balmy oyster]

New acrocantho specimen…?

[fossil ingot]

Seemd about the same

[stiff osprey]

the point of the paper is not to worry about subjective soft tissue reconstructions because the methods are not based on that

(other than whether you use birds or lizards to reconstruct muscle thickness etc)

[fossil ingot]

Paper Got 60t Patagotitan
The Fatty

[balmy oyster]

I still wonder how that got an acrocanthosaurus 2 tons larger though

[stiff osprey]

so do i

[bitter quest]

At most probably 1 ton more but 2 seems much

[fossil ingot]

Fran ranged from like 5.5-6.1t depending the model used
8.4t☠️
Bro is literally NHMUK Spino weight
And Almost Giga Holotype Weight, and Same weight as Stuff Like Titan Based Carcha

[warped peak]

Probably by making the sail encased in solid meat

[bitter quest]

Rip sailed acro, not that special anymore to other carcharodontosaurids

[fluid inlet]

Maybe not to you

[bitter quest]

To be fair that spin what made acro stand out more from the rest. Besides it's skull

[balmy oyster]

it was gone for a while

[bitter quest]

I know but just saying that due to it getting more fat apparently

Looks like this probably according to the new paper

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/sketchy_raptor/status/1920942058946052303?s=46 acro > rex

Dr Matt Dempsey (@Sketchy_raptor) on X

A little nugget of data from my new study that I think the theropod fans among my followers might find interesting...

The body masses of some particularly big boys estimated using the "preferred isometric" modelling workflow, as outlined in the paper.

X · May 9, 2025, 8:40 PM

https://x.com/sketchy_raptor/status/1920943949650239929?s=46

Dr Matt Dempsey (@Sketchy_raptor) on X

And if there was any doubt that Acro really is that big - here's a cast of the skeleton our model is based on mounted next to a cast of AMNH 5027 (which our T. rex is based on) at the Witte Museum.

Photo credit: Jerry Lara (San Antonio Express-News) & the Witte Museum website.

X · May 9, 2025, 8:48 PM

[steady rock]

Does this make acro the largest carch?

[bitter quest]

No, dentary giga holds the crown still

[undone rapids]

Also this study's findings would prob make other carchs a bit bigger too

[bitter quest]

12 - 13 ton dentary giga

[fluid inlet]

Can’t wait to see if they either found more material from one of the two gigas or a completely different specimen

[steady rock]

Rex material coming soon to make it bigger

[halcyon cobalt]

I always had hope for giga to dethrone Rex

[stiff osprey]

don't worry they will just find a 14t rex specimen the year after this gets released

[fluid inlet]

I won’t be shocked if something is out there looking to be unearthed just to take the crown from all the megatheropods

[stiff osprey]

the humble brazilocaudus halfabonicus

[fluid inlet]

Don’t be bias now it will come out of Argentina 🤣

[stiff osprey]

well ours was already published last year so they gotta catch up

[undone rapids]

All American Museums are looking through their collections Tyrannosaur Teeths and Toes in the desperate hope of finding a fragment that could be bigger..

[fossil ingot]

Still find this Goofy how he added 2-3t for Fran lol
I personally find this sus and wouldn't use it
IMO

[fossil ingot]

Ofc is based on mounts

[bitter quest]

Okay now it's 100% sus

[stiff osprey]

looking at his explanation and comparing it to previous papers it's not as odd

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/646189848209915916/1370514993681797262/IMG_8624.png?ex=681fc70d&is=681e758d&hm=4dc7d481ad189c6aab692a4d82700917ba65f9de7f489ac824d8a3aaaafd31bf&

consider that the fattest model in Bates et al. 2012 is around 7.4t and doesn't have a fully hump shaped back

[fossil ingot]

The Predator thats only 170kgs smaller than Giga Holotype...

[fossil ingot]

This thing?

[opaque kayak]

So now we have megacrosaurus

[fossil ingot]

How tf is this mf only 170kgs below Giga Holotype

[stiff osprey]

9182 - 170 = 8340

good math

[opaque kayak]

Looks like this will be on wikipedia for a while, along with every other weight from this study

[fossil ingot]

And bro is NHMUK Spino size.
While been this.
Soft tissue

@stiff osprey I am basing it off this but thats worse lol

[light osprey]

Which one is AMNH 5027

[stiff osprey]

my question is why are you comparing the minimum estimate for giga's holotype with the maximum for acro

of course you will get silly results that way

[opaque kayak]

Giga 3D model makes giga smaller, so 8834 kg - 170 kg (doesn't change much, but it's less then a ton anyways so idc)

[fossil ingot]

This Guy

[stiff osprey]

see above. and that's still not equal 8364

[opaque kayak]

Yes, I saw that, which is why I wrote so

[fluid inlet]

Cook him

[fossil ingot]

I am just saying 170 for Rounding to 8400.
I am to lazy to do math and say 206kgs or whatever it is

[stiff osprey]

Guys if we use the 2006 allometry estimate for Sue and the 2022 allometry estimate for Giganotosaurus we get a Giga heavier than Sue, does this prove Giganotosaurus is not real?

[opaque kayak]

No but NHMUK spino would be a hippo victim

[undone rapids]

The supplementry paper mentions where they used bird and where they used non-bird synapsids for soft tissue iirc

[opaque kayak]

PS. I have no idea how legit the 8 ton acro in the study is, and someone tell me how good the study's prefered methods are

[light osprey]

You could try reading the paper

[stiff osprey]

provided the skeleton reference they are based on is reliable, the result is better than allometry or a GDI

[fluid inlet]

🤣

[undone rapids]

I guess it just means there's alot more room for soft tissues in reconstructions now

[fossil ingot]

Atp PHP Rex might just become Base Rex.
Ew

[steady rock]

why didnt the aliens save the dinosaurs from the meteors?

[opaque kayak]

I mean it's good a actual paper pulled up to say why a 3D model is better then allometry

[opaque kayak]

Maybe dinosaurs are aliens and they left the earth

[undone rapids]

Now I wanna see what a 7-8 tonne Acro model looks like with way more soft tissue..... unless

[steady rock]

the ufo would crash due to how fat they are

[fluid inlet]

Who bigger acro or

[steady rock]

amarga

[opaque kayak]

Rumblr lore Perucetus victims

[steady rock]

dont tell rumble that perecetus is actually 10 milagrams

[fluid inlet]

Back when perucetus was king 💔

[frigid delta]

big L
ugly as hell
as ugly as an old hag
grandpa ahh posture
glad it died
extremely despise it

normalize bully that Acro

[fluid inlet]

Not funny

[frigid delta]

i'm being serious
that Acro ugly as hell

[frigid delta]

you must be that Acro typing this

yep
ur an Acro disguising as a Trike

[zealous ravine]

good lord the neck is thin

[zealous ravine]

Or like 500 kg lmao

[severe yew]

have you ever heard of a Dinosauroid?

[frigid delta]

what abt Carnivores?

[ashen wedge]

Unfortunately, but it naked

[balmy oyster]

So nothing essentially changed, he’s just…using more soft tissue for gdi’ing?

[stiff osprey]

his argument is that we need to use more soft tissue

[warped peak]

Does that mean 11 ton Spino after fattening the sail

[balmy oyster]

Wouldn’t that be counterintuitive to gdi’ing in the first place? I know he argued for generally more soft tissue but the whole point of weight values is to get a weight from usually the most minimal amount of soft tissue used to not get any wonky sizes and a better blank slate to work with?

[stiff osprey]

Sure, but then everyone treats this most minimal amount of soft tissue as if it is The Correct Size of the Animal when there is no animal in reality that has the most minimal soft tissue. GDIs are not treated as minimums they're treated as The Truth

[steady rock]

this conversation is too smart for me, may i get a caveman version of what we're currently discussng?

[light osprey]

Behold, the volumetric

[hallow spear]

Is this really the issue with gdi and not the reference itself though

[stiff osprey]

By the way, I compared the Acro mount Dempsey used to Franoys's skeletal, and the mount is MASSIVELY deeper in both the shoulders and hips, so that's why it weighs 7-8 tonnes. Not because he added 2 tonnes of soft tissue. The skeleton itself is different

If you use the same skeletal reference you will get similar results between the convex hulls and a GDI