paleontology

[keen forum]

we need more charts with the big carchs bite forces also makes me wonder how they will all change with serenos testing's

now now make him bigger https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/897997087575265340/1183419713099931820/footprintscalling.png?ex=662bbe7e&is=662a6cfe&hm=959fe7f5e8920722bb8de2011306fa5eb1d7cf31f8531484df8c01ffe4a4f0e3& ( joking )

[tough parcel]

The file name 😭

[bold zodiac]

Is this metri?

Only reason why I think. Cera* wins against metri is because it has a more stronger bite and more armor, and also has horns on is head that could possibly be a weapon like a headbutt or something. And also is t more robust then metri?

[bright veldt]

Cerato is not a robust theropod. It looks it from the side but it’s hella thin headon lol.

[scenic flame]

cerato's crests were too delicate to be used as a weapon

[bright veldt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542776901442338816/1233078221566775406/Untitled3_20211123160158.png?ex=662bc915&is=662a7795&hm=e6fde472b7f3be2cd8019fdd938892695809aaa0db3dbed463b4c42772ce6407&

[bold zodiac]

Cera is short ash ngl

I think the only advantage for metri is height

[tough parcel]

I literally

[bright veldt]

Metri is just straight up bigger and I think it’s that simple. Cerato has the bigger teeth, and is the only theropod with prominent osteoderms, but idk if that’d make it suddenly have a serious advantage or anything.

[bold zodiac]

Eh

[scenic flame]

to quote Unaturalhistorychannel, size is the single greatest determining factor in who wins a confrontation in nature

[tough parcel]

• the osteoderms are a singular row on the midline of the back, they ain't protecting anything 😭

[bright veldt]

There are actually other osteoderms actually, we just don’t know where they go on the body tmk. Outside of the fact that they exist.

[scenic flame]

erm, are you not familiar with how MMO armour works???

[bold zodiac]

So is alio bigger than cera?

[tough parcel]

I know there are, but it is a singular osteoderm that cannot be assigned to the back. There is nothing indicating that it would be any more extensive

[bright veldt]

Yesnt. Speculative adult size is meh.

[bold zodiac]

So therefore if metri is bigger, it’ll be more bulkier and robust?

[bright veldt]

I mean not exactly? Both aren’t really exceptionally robust/gracile compared to the other. Metri’s just bigger.

[bold zodiac]

Hm

[tough parcel]

Considering Cerato looks like this, I feel there's a decent chance Metri is more robust

[bright veldt]

Fair, I just dunno the details.

[bold zodiac]

Did metri have a stronger bite then?

[last iron]

I did not know Cerato was a paper mario character

[bright veldt]

We don’t have metri’s skull to get a bite force from

[bold zodiac]

Did it have any competition?

[last iron]

Caseoh

[bold zodiac]

Nah fr tho, did metri rival anything?

[bright veldt]

The only other theropod found from the time and area is Eusteptospondylus, which is only known from young remains.

[vocal breach]

I love RJ Palmer ❤️

[last iron]

He’s also based because he draws MH

[bold zodiac]

Metri bigger than eustep?

[uneven path]

Didn't he also work on concept art for the live action Pokémon movie or am I thinking of someone else

[bright veldt]

Probably but that’s my opinion. We can’t really know.

[bold zodiac]

0.55 short tons💀

[last iron]

Is this another Jack Horner situation

[vocal breach]

We all agree Godzilla would be in ceratosauria, but where would Shimo be?

[tough parcel]

We do?

[lunar copper]

big armed abelisaur ❤️‍🔥

[last iron]

Shimo would probably be a Rauisuchian IMO

[vocal breach]

cough cough Trey the Explainer cough cough

[tough parcel]

Oh

[uneven path]

Oh

[last iron]

The Majunga mod should have a claw attack

[vocal breach]

Speaking of him, what y’all think of Tray?

[tough parcel]

I think it also should be remembered Godzilla is a 300+ foot tall radioactive kaiju who eats radiation like it’s a smoothie

There are multiple different ways to interpret him and his ancestry

[tough parcel]

Honestly could not care, they’re out of the sci-comm role for dinosaurs last I checked, so I don’t need to concern myself with it

[lavish frigate]

Hot take: Godzilla isn’t a dinosaur. He’s a member of Pseudosuchia

[crude latch]

Gojis og inspo being Trex, iguanadon, and stego

[sullen cairn]

scaling up from sinraptor they're both like just over 10kN with cera just edging out metri
but that's largely speculative because yeah lack of metri skull

[fossil ingot]

Common Carcha W with its Bite Force

[bold zodiac]

Is sinraptor bigger than both of them?

[sullen cairn]

yeah

[bold zodiac]

Bigger than metri and cera?

[sullen cairn]

yup

[bold zodiac]

How much does it weigh?

[lilac dust]

hey

[sullen cairn]

dongi's type is like 1.6-1.9t depending on what you scale with

[outer tusk]

Metri is 1.2t & cerato is 1t

[sullen cairn]

granted you could could scale both marginally larger than that but yeah the two are pretty comprable at the largest

[sullen cairn]

just for funsies metri and BYUVP cera

btw the cera in sakamoto isn't the largest

[bold zodiac]

Is sinoraptor taller than both?

[sullen cairn]

sinraptor's larger than metri yeah

[bold zodiac]

Bite force?

[sullen cairn]

~10.8kN

so slightly higher than cera and presumably metri

[warped peak]

Yowza Cera bit hard for it's size

[sullen cairn]

yeah its like 3/4ths that of something like das but still pretty impressive given its only a bit over a ton

[nocturne merlin]

morrison hyena ig

[misty cosmos]

I'm asking not to scrutinize, just out of curiosity where you got your sourcing for BYUVP's size estimate. I've been looking all over for information but its not been described yet

[outer tusk]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/897995109495353394/912856487758553118/Untitled3_20211123160158.png?ex=662b989a&is=662a471a&hm=ba170f01c0acda5d22f451e6e2e5eebe32bf7c9776a7113695881aed6c19e8bd&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1440&height=605

[misty cosmos]

That doesn't tell me where you got the size estimate from

[night bluff]

"Most I know are in support of a digitigrade position, or have said that digitigrade is more likely but more analysis is needed to say for certain... but regardless here are the articles I was referencing if you wanted to read (yeah realising this is slightly more paleochat than modding)
https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.22863
https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.24298
https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/62/5/1281/6590043"

This was in modding, I did some brief reading especially for specific areas of interest. I may have missed it so I'll read again, but I didn't see any real mention to poposaurus gracilis's ankle as well as it's pillar based hip structure both which would be important for determining locomotion.

[outer tusk]

maybe google idk

[sullen cairn]

theropod database has an 81cm skull measurement

[misty cosmos]

Did they describe the cranium yet?

[outer tusk]

I remember hearing about dinosaur database good times

[sullen cairn]

afaik no

[misty cosmos]

Okay, thanks for answering me. Sorry to bother you w/ pings. Im just trying to figure out where the measurement is sourced from because if it isn't described yet, I don't know where the theropod database is getting their information. They didn't list it in references

[bright veldt]

It was a GDI done by TheToxicMidget

GDI, meaning graphic double integration, is essentially a program that calculates the volume of a given animal given the right neutral density and frame of reference (skeletal at multiple angles or a 3D model) to determine the mass. It's currently the most reliable method of finding body mass in dinosaurs.

[misty cosmos]

Oh yeah, I understand that bit. I was just looking for the specific document that said it. Much appreciated

[sullen cairn]

iirc i think i might've seen a length given for a cast somewhere on the internet (i'll see if i can find it) at one point but take that with the lightest grain of salt imaginable
shame its still not described yet though

[misty cosmos]

I know. Been 30+ years. I was just excited when I saw a size estimate and wanted to ask about the accuracy/where the information came from becasue I've been looking and silently hoping someday soon more information would be published and described for us

[sullen cairn]

it'd be nice if it showed up in that upcoming cera ontogeny paper

[misty cosmos]

Oh? Upcoming?

[sullen cairn]

from svp 2023
supposedly examines a few adult specimens

[wary junco]

I'm not sure what do you mean? These papers directly address the likelihood of digitigrade vs plantigrade posture in Poposaurus (admittedly some in more depth than others) and aside from the first one I linked which is more focused on ichnological evidence, do talk about lines of evidence from both the hip and ankle joints:

[misty cosmos]

okay, I will begin my searching. Much thanks ❤️

[frank mason]

I cant believe Rhamphorhynchus means Beaksnout ._.

[outer tusk]

What else you thought it was

[frank mason]

That's exactly what I looked up yesterday lol. I didn't know what it meant, hence looking it up, and it has the failure of a name xD Beaksnout

[tough parcel]

Honestly, the guy who named it was a genius

[river plinth]

I swear God knows he had to nerff titanoceratops cause looking back only thing stopping it was it's downwards horns 💀😂

[cosmic fox]

wuddaheeeeeel

[unkempt roost]

It's all fun and games until you realize "Fredicthys murzodont" means "Fred fish banana teeth"

[halcyon cobalt]

barinasuchus vs fallout yao guai

[tough parcel]

Huh

[hallow spear]

wow you used Eriklo from the paper that invluded a Juvie stego biteforce but didnt include the juvie stego :(
Stegosoros hate will not be tolerated Scanova!

[sudden wind]

There are several publications about Poposaurus posterior limb and girdle though

[bold zodiac]

Isn’t alio stronger? How much does qianzho weighs at adult size?

[warped peak]

they have the exact same adult size estimates

[last iron]

Yeah I just picked Qia because it’s more based

[sullen cairn]

qianzhousaurus is larger and more mature than either alioramus specimen

[native kindle]

the animal that wins is the one that doesn't die from infection after a fight. so, neither. can we talk about important topics yet

animal vs. animal. floods the chat meant to discuss serious paleontology topics with useless "who wins" about dead animals

^

[bold zodiac]

Kewl

[alpine island]

oh man i sure cant choose between the large animals with a =< 200kg difference between them

[river plinth]

Alio we discovered is still considered a bby

[lavish frigate]

Y’all. Stegosaurus vs Cretaceous flowering plants who wins

[serene moat]

Me with no difficulty

[lyric cape]

[bleak sphinx]

Spinosaurus is the largest carnivorous dinosaur 🪝

[pliant cedar]

mods crush his skull

[warped peak]

The chicken in my backyard:

[pliant cedar]

i am the largest theropod dinosaur

[torpid raft]

Albertosaurus sarcophagus is cooler than carnotaurus

[scarlet moon]

Facts

[north forum]

is this basically just general discussion ? as in we can talk abt anything about pot? Still new to this server :p

[tough parcel]

Gorgosaurus sarcophagus is cooler than both

And @north forum #path-of-titans is the gen chat

[north forum]

ok ty

[daring forge]

if you could merge two genuses to make a hybrid what would they be

i am new as well

[uneven path]

@north forum @daring forge This is the paleo chat channel. As in, this is for scientific discussion on the actual long dead animals. This is not the place for tier lists or "who would win in a fight" or fictional hybrids that wouldn't have ever existed.

[tough parcel]

Gorgosaurus and Albertosaurus are real animals...? And they're sister taxa (iirc) thus making them a target for lumping

Due to this, we would be combining the names (Albertosaurus libratus), but people can ask which name sounds better (Gorgosaurus sarcophagus)

[daring forge]

ok i am really sorry

[tough parcel]

You're good, I dunno why tapping's getting on your case >.>

[uneven path]

Ah sorry didn't scroll up. Yeah i know they're real. On mobile rn

[tough parcel]

I see

[uneven path]

I am deeply sorry for misinterpreting the situation.

[daring forge]

its ok

i should have known better

[native kindle]

hey friends, im struggling to find a good reconstruction and size for Beishanlong, lotta variety in how it's depicted (standard deinocheirid, more ornithomimid or a secret 3rd thing??) so if any insight could be provided i'd appreciate it :]

[torpid raft]

Nah Albertosaurus is still cooler

[heady thunder]

Name wise or dino wise? Gorgo has the cooler name, alberto is the cooler dino

[outer tusk]

what

[torpid raft]

just in general

I prefer alberto

[keen forum]

alberto is better than gorgo this is fact

[junior dawn]

alberto has a dinky tail and a boring name

[native kindle]

whenever you nerds are done debating which is better, ping me if you've got any help to offer

[snow python]

Carcharodontosaurids by size:
Giganotosaurus: 12,8-13,5m and 9-10t
Carcharodontosaurus: 12,4m and 8,2-8,4t
Mapusaurus, 12,7m and 7,9t
Tyrannotitan: 12m and 7,5t
Acro: 11,7m and 5,5-6t
Meraxes, 11,2-11,6m and 5,5t
Sauroniops: 10,5m and 4t
Veterupristusaurus, Siamraptor, Eocarcharia and Kelmayisaurus 9m and 2-3t
Romanian carcharodontosaurid: 6-7m and 800kg-1t ?
Concavenator, Lusovenator and Shaochilong 6m and 700kg
Lajasvenator: 4,5m and 400- 500 kg
Did I missed any of them?
I didn't mentioned Taurovenator because, most likely, is just a juvenile Mapusaurus, and I'm not sure what exactly Siats and Chilantaisaurus are...

[native kindle]

700 kg conca

[scenic flame]

I've only seen it estimated at 650kg

[native kindle]

oh, thought it was like 600. not as drastic as i thought, nvm

[sudden wind]

PoT's Conca is such of a disgrace

WHy 45s

[tough patio]

Is the semi aquatic Natovenator/Halszkaraptor theory still accurate? I’ve seen people go back and forth on whether they would be semi aquatic or not but they seem to have too many adaptations to not at least spend some time in water.

[bright veldt]

The issues with it is a combination of Halszkaraptor’s environment being an odd place for an aquatic animal to be (The desert) and the original author is kinda biased. There’s probably other issues as well I can’t recall. It and Spino are the two closest ones to proper semi-aquatic non-avian dinosaurs and they’re mad controversial cause of it. We dunno right now.

[scenic flame]

https://www.deviantart.com/corallianassa/art/The-giant-Omingonde-cynognathid-GDI-795998243

[stiff osprey]

oh min gode

[scenic flame]

don't act all surprised

[stiff osprey]

oh sorry

omin gonde*

[scenic flame]

oh lmao

[daring forge]

i think the beclespinax is the best

[halcyon cobalt]

I think the beclespinax is the worst

[daring forge]

y

[bright veldt]

The name is Altispinax. Becklespinax became invalid nearly a decade ago.

[daring forge]

sorry i forgot💀

you know what really iritates me

[lucid ibex]

This guy?

[daring forge]

[lucid ibex]

[daring forge]

but also when people call pteranodons pteradactyls

[lucid ibex]

OH GOD YES. It makes my blood boil. I start tweaking when I hear people call Mesozoic marine reptiles: “Sea dinosaurs” too. It could just be me but what (outside of the fact they are both reptilian in appearance) would make one believe that they’re dinosaurs??? THEY DON’T EVEN LOOK SIMILAR 😭😭😭😭

[daring forge]

same with pterosaurs being called flying dinosaurs

[lucid ibex]

I hear it when I go to museums occasionally and I just look at them like this:

[daring forge]

same

[sweet field]

Why what?

[daring forge]

when people call marine reptiles and pterosaurs sea and flying dinosaurs

[sudden wind]

The message cooldown

[daring forge]

am i the only one who hates the cooldown

[keen forum]

12.7m and around 8.4 tons for the holotype of giga and 9.9-10.1tons for the 13.5m lad ( tho i don't think its that big ) the rest seems fine tho iirc TTT is about 11.6m and 7 tons if you scale it using randoms carch

[keen forum]

gorgo also has a dinky tail

[daring forge]

i joined 4 hours ago so im new

[woeful falcon]

Lets not pretend Gorgo's proportions are as goofy as alberto's now

[daring forge]

[woeful falcon]

Random did also save it from having "jacked up looking skull" syndrome

[stiff osprey]

Alberto's only goofy because someone beat its skull in with hammers

Otherwise it's got this 90s racehorse tyrannosaur energy that's both cool and scary

[woeful falcon]

Gorgo skull peak dinosaur skull

[stiff osprey]

Gorgo's skull on Alberto's body would be the perfect organism

[nocturne merlin]

peak animal

[daring forge]

[junior dawn]

😄

[woeful falcon]

Heh.....disagree, friend. The perfect organism already exists, and its Gorgo's skull on Gorgo's body.

[stiff osprey]

Blud is ecologically indistinguishable from Daspletosaurus 😔

[daring forge]

my brother thinks that this is scientifically accurate

[west drum]

Show him what a real dilo looks like

[daring forge]

done he is shocked

i think the jp one will get eaten by the real one if they ever meet

[woeful falcon]

Good, daspletosaurus is also cool 😎

It's das, but better

[keen forum]

give him the longer legs and they would match pretty well

one could say they would look the same XD ( minus albertos long pubis )

[woeful falcon]

I mean ya, that's what I mean. Stupid long leg + short tail = goober

[keen forum]

wat horrid animals

[woeful falcon]

Based*

[daring forge]

im with blub the daspetosaurus is very cool

[scenic flame]

wrong chat, and there isn't one and won't be one

[sudden wind]

Albertosaurinae is where Tyrannosauridae peaked.

[sullen cairn]

albertosaurinae and allosauridae fighting over who's the most pointless theropod clade beggining wil "al-"

[torpid raft]

Pointless? I will have you know that albertosaurus is the best dinosaur to ever roam this planet...
Boy oh boy where do I even begin. Albertosaurus... honey, my pookie bear. I have loved you ever since I first laid eyes on you. The way you dominate the prehistoric landscape and strike fear into the eyes of lesser dinosaurs. Your graceful movements as you hunt and your powerful jaws in action. I would do anything for you. I wish it were possible to freeze time so I would never have to witness your extinction. You had a rough start in the Cretaceous period, but you never gave up hope. You are even amazing in your ecosystem, a great leader and protector, sometimes I even call you father of the Cretaceous. I forever dread and weep, thinking of the day when your species will one day fade away. I would sacrifice my own existence if it were the only thing that could ensure your survival. You have given me so much awe and wonder over the eons. I remember when your species first emerged, and it's like my heart burst with excitement. But a tear still fell from my eye when I witnessed the decline of your population, because deep down, my majestic predator deserved better. I just wanted you to thrive. Then alas, you did, my mighty dinosaur came back from the brink and I rejoiced. The Late Cretaceous was a hard time for us, but in your resilience, you made history happen. You survived extinction events and I couldn't believe it. I was marveling, in awe even, and I heard my majestic leader roar these words, "CRETACEOUS ERA, THIS IS FOR YOU!" Not only have you changed the ecosystem and the world forever, but you've eternally changed my perception of time. And now your species is getting older, but still the apex predator, my apex predator. I love you pookie bear, my majestic ruler, Albertosaurus.

[crude latch]

[cursive comet]

Hi lads, I build Avial animatronic models of extinct species, and looking for guidance on what to make as my next model. Namely I am considering great yi qi, do you think it could fly actually, or exist actually and is not a a total misinterpretation, and is there are picture where it shows to be having large enough functional wings?

[heady thunder]

Damn, we have to put you in the octagon with the strongest glazers in history, allosaurus fans

[lavish frigate]

This….deserves an award

[torpid raft]

We have to put you non albertosaurus fan in a zoo

[indigo grove]

Allo on top

Big Al and Broken Jaw best Allos of all time

[silver canopy]

Theri is the panda of theropods, until we meet again.

[tough parcel]

As in design-wise or specimen-wise? Cause one is so far ahead of the other, it's not even a comparison

[indigo grove]

not comparing em, but imma be fr, i mostly know about Broken Jaw

[sweet field]

big al: who you callin pinhead?

[tardy raven]

broken jaw by far one of the first reasons i started liking dinosaurs

[cursive comet]

what do you guys opinion about yi qi.... is it actual?

[copper flame]

Based birdbug pfp

[copper flame]

It could fly

[warped peak]

New copypasta just dropped

[severe field]

AMNH 680 cooler than both

[outer tusk]

STRN is one of the best paleoartsit in my opinion and has Monquriasaurus peice shows

[arctic crane]

How big was deinonychus? I feel like it's really small in game

[bright veldt]

3.5 meters 100 kg

[arctic crane]

So about leopard size?

[steady rock]

is this basilosaurus core

[fossil ingot]

Basically
Gorgo>Alberto
Got it

[snow python]

How big are the largest tarbo and zhucheng?

[lucid ibex]

…What did I just read

[native kindle]

[junior dawn]

was gonna respond yesterday but i forgot
one sec

[junior dawn]

afaik, cisios is a decent look. Tyrannomimus is a goodbase ref, but obv bei was much bigger

[sullen cairn]

types are ~11m and ~10m respectively, but there's a vert from zhuch's quarry that's also ~11m

[snow python]

Thanks

[nocturne merlin]

anyone know what the small lines are? seen theme on a few clubbed ankylosaur skeletals

[native kindle]

i see i see. ty both for the help

[west coral]

Ossified tendons iirc

[sudden wind]

ossified tendons, it's the handle

[stray wren]

Basically they make the tail stiff and rigid, in Ankylosaurs case it allows them to hit with more force. Dromaeosaurs have them too and they likely used them to assist in turning while moving quickly

[nocturne merlin]

right so pot anodont is just kinda snapping them then

[torpid raft]

Alberto>Gorgo

[nocturne merlin]

https://tenor.com/view/boring-fun-door-stopper-gif-5908317

[bright veldt]

Baseball bat basically

[sudden wind]

yes

[daring forge]

i thought this group was about paleontology not about renovating your house

[west coral]

eutyrannosauria

[topaz shell]

Alectrosaurus

[tardy raven]

evening cultured gentlemen, what is the debate today

[topaz shell]

I guess we are talking about the eutyrannosauria

[tardy raven]

m

[runic bear]

Hola

[tardy raven]

who would win, gorgosaurus or tarbosaurus

[nocturne merlin]

tarbo

[topaz shell]

Tarbo is larger and stronger BETTER (I like gorgo mor)

[steady rock]

is this size chart accurate so far?, this my second time making one

[tough parcel]

Random no, it's my job, don't do it nooooo

[stiff osprey]

Ok I will say something else then

Why are they so low res

[tough parcel]

If this helps

[steady rock]

IM A FAILURE

[tough parcel]

Tbf to you, the Cera and Ava skeletals you used are old old (and the Cera might not be denti/nasi?)

[steady rock]

oh, i using a different ceratopsian...

[tough parcel]

The skeletal you used came up as Avaceratops under Luis Rey's blog

[steady rock]

yehuecaceratops

[stiff osprey]

Cerato is the holotype, which looks about the right size

[tough parcel]

Not using the largest specimen

Ew

[steady rock]

do you have the most up to date skeletals?

[woeful falcon]

Furcatoceratops...

[west drum]

https://youtu.be/76nCpMsVftU?feature=shared this is probably the best design I have seen of smilodon

[crude latch]

Why those vertebrae look so damn stabby 💀

[topaz shell]

PK looks like it did better

[stray wren]

Yeah instinction's Smilodon is bad. Really bad. Worse than Camp Cretaceous almost

[bright veldt]

I don’t think it’s that bad, but I’m going to roast it to hell and back cause they have the balls to call their smilodon the most accurate when it looks like THAT

[open compass]

To be honest, this smil is the best ❤️‍🔥

[native kindle]

they have an updated one.

[clever sable]

What is institutional

[open compass]

Ik

[light osprey]

The best Smilodon is the one we’ve yet to make

[lean egret]

What’s the general consensus on Saurophagnax nowadays? Was it just a species of Allosaurus or was it it’s own genus?

[topaz shell]

I believe it’s own currently

[bright veldt]

^

[sweet plover]

Anyone see the nature paper on the Aptian icehouse?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01389-5

[cursive comet]

This is also true for all long tailed pterosaur

[scenic flame]

which one is Sino? the smaller lighter blue one?

[warped peak]

AFAIK the consensus is that Allosaurus was just a pretty generic body plan for the group and a lot of relatives just looked quite similar

[copper flame]

As of now what is chilantaisaurus right now?

A tyrannosauroid?
A megaraptoran
Or a carcharodontosaurid of some kind?

[bright veldt]

Who knows

[native kindle]

safest bet tmk is placing it just outside of carcharodontosauria? i like it as a neovenatorid bc it looks neat

[sullen cairn]

carcharodontosauria includes neovenatoridae
but real ones use carcharodontosauridae (=carcharodontosauria) anyways

[bright veldt]

Implying neovenatoridae as a clade exists

[chilly knot]

fax sigmar

[west coral]

The larger, bluer one is sino

[steady rock]

is this skeletal up to date?

[bright veldt]

Scott Hartman's

[topaz shell]

What creature?

[tough parcel]

The repulsive monster, Nigersaurus

[crude latch]

[twilit snow]

[tough parcel]

What?

[twilit snow]

That’s a lot to unpack there

[tough parcel]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger

There really isn’t

[twilit snow]

It’s possible that there may or may not be a lot to unpack there, but agree to disagree 🥰

[tough parcel]

Least racist paleo-user

[twilit snow]

I don’t judge on skin color or ethnicity or anything like that, I judge on character and personality :> you seem pretty cool

[tough parcel]

Anyways, I’m gonna bring it up, but the fact people sleep on Nat Geo’s rex is a shame

[topaz shell]

Bro I love that design just wish it had lips (ofc it was before then)

[twilit snow]

THAT IS SO PRETTY WHAT DE HECK!!!! 😦

[topaz shell]

Wait didn’t he make a Nanotyrannus (I assume it’s a studio I forgot)

[tough parcel]

https://youtu.be/gDeRBB57ryY?si=NTQIR7YUYMtwQ3dA

Made almost a decade ago and (afaik) still holds up fairly well

Yes, there was a documentary in the same series on Nanotyrannus

[topaz shell]

The nano is perfect

[twilit snow]

Those eyes are crazy!!! If I saw that irl I’d die from terror, but it’s so pretty too 😭

[topaz shell]

The one thing I don’t get is why they made the “nanos” go after a 8 ton rex

[stiff osprey]

I love that the video starts with ''but evidence is scarce and controversial. The long and short of it is- [cuts off]''

[twilit snow]

Tbh, almost every movie above it Dino’s, the Rex gets targeted tbh 💔

[tough parcel]

Who needs narration, we’re here for the dinosaurs

[topaz shell]

The nanos got them honey badger genes (||Jurassic fight club||)

[stiff osprey]

Ok that was kind of goofy
The 3 Triceratops hit squad calmly hobbling towards the rex who just stands there waiting to get gored 😭

[tough parcel]

Clearly the T.rex was paralyzed in fear…

[twilit snow]

Fr, I’d be terrified if a bunch of Triceratops were coming after me 😂

[topaz shell]

The rex just casually survived being gored by three trikes

[lavish frigate]

He’s gosh dang perdy

[steady rock]

which is more accurate

[bright veldt]

Scott Hartman's. The one with the head down is significantly older.

[steady rock]

oh okay, nigersaurus is alot bigger then i remember

[lavish frigate]

Why. Why does everyone do this. It’s Niger. As in Niger 🇳🇪 the country. In Africa. Stop being sussy.

[twilit snow]

I know 😭 I realized that, tbh I thought it was a made up Dino, like the indoraptor from JW or something, but it’s A REAL DINO and that’s cool, it looks silly 😂

How could you not love this face?

[bright veldt]

The wierd mouth is an adaptation for grazing.

[twilit snow]

He gotta get all the nom noms he can fr

[steady rock]

anyone have the most up to date ceratosaurus and yehueceratops skeletals?

[bright veldt]

This is the only Yuhueceratops skeletal that exists

[steady rock]

lil fat baby

I HAVE TO REMAKE IT, NO

[crude latch]

Looong tail

[bright veldt]

What you mean? Cause I said it's the only skeletal that exists. I'm not too sure it holds up that well general anatomy wise.

[woeful falcon]

could probably use a furcato skeletal as a base to update it

or any other nasutoceratopsin ig whichever is better.

[scenic flame]

https://hellcreekenthusiasm.wordpress.com/2024/04/28/polly-wants-parsimony-on-the-cretaceous-parrot/

[west coral]

don’t worry about a thing

[crude latch]

SCOUT NO LMAO 💀

[west coral]

They are coming for him

[ocean brook]

Isn't there a thing/study about ankylosaurs digging themselves into the ground or smth like that?

[crude latch]

Pretty sure that was debunked

[warped peak]

Ankylorbsaurus

[scenic flame]

I haven't heard anything debunking it

[warped peak]

Spec Evo spherical Ankylosaur would be funny ngl

[crude latch]

Mb then

[tough parcel]

No study, but think about it logically:

You're an ankylosaur, whose major defense is hunkering low to the ground and using your tail to beat anyone who gets close enough to death. But if you were to burrow, you're rendering that tail useless because you can't move to swing it towards your attacker.

Then there's your head. If it's on/in the ground, the resident megatheropod can just step on it and c r u n c h, there goes you.

*I think ankylosaur nostrils are also downturned which means they'd be inhaling dirt if they were burrowing

[kindred night]

https://youtu.be/gEBLkWnUN08?t=41 Why is he digging is he stupid?

[loud python]

An ankylosaur could still get stepped on even if it was just hunkered down, no?

[soft hill]

[loud python]

having a nice little dugout would be a good way to prevent being flipped over though, especially if this is a behavior they do to make a bed before sleeping

[tough parcel]

Yea, but that doesn't acknowledge the 2 other points brought up (Which imo are stronger arguments)

[loud python]

depends on how far they dig down really on both of those

[tough parcel]

No it doesn't because any form of digging is going to prevent you from moving well enough to call it a defense

[steady rock]

no i forgot to save it

[loud python]

if it can hold the weight of something stepping on it then it would be more beneficial than a chance of being flipped over

[tough parcel]

That still doesn't address the 2 other points

[calm agate]

mfw ignoring the Ankylosaur we literally found buried in its bed

[loud python]

especially given the animal would be stepping onto something unstable and spikey

[tough parcel]

If you'd like to provide that rather than vaguely allude to it then that would be preferrable. But it still doesn't change
You're an ankylosaur, whose major defense is hunkering low to the ground and using your tail to beat anyone who gets close enough to death. But if you were to burrow, you're rendering that tail useless because you can't move to swing it towards your attacker.

[steady rock]

would it be like stepping on a stone fish just without the poison and death?

[kindred night]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83568-4

[tough parcel]

I am slowly thinking that you haven't read anything beyond the point you're responding to

[loud python]

It was suppose to be posted like right after my post I am suffering in slow mode

[steady rock]

can someone give me a recap on what we're discussing?

[calm agate]

My apologies, I assumed you'd have went and looked for literature on the topic before you decided to act like an expert on it.

[clear solar]

bro sits in one spot and can be easily tipped over, what was he thinking?

[tough parcel]

Cap'n, I'm reading this. They only present anatomical features, there does not seem to be any mention of it being what we are speaking about

[elder robin]

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-dead-stop-stop-hes-already-dead-the-simpsons-gif-15735025

[tough parcel]

But instead of sarcasm, I haven't heard a good response to this

So please do enlighten me as to what you have to offer against it. I would love to learn what you experts need to say!

[calm agate]

Here's two paragraphs from the paper you've clearly not read on digging and adaptations Ankylosaurs have for it. Do not claim to have looked when people can very easily check themselves.

[tough parcel]

I would like a response instead of sarcasm

And I did acknowledge they discussed anatomical traits. They did not say it was direct evidence of the animal burrowing.

[woeful falcon]

This is a dinosaur video game discord y'all

Chill out

[kindred night]

If it looks like a duck and burrows like a duck it probably burrows : /

[tough parcel]

But that wouldn't make sense considering: ```You're an ankylosaur, whose major defense is hunkering low to the ground and using your tail to beat anyone who gets close enough to death. But if you were to burrow, you're rendering that tail useless because you can't move to swing it towards your attacker.

[loud python]

that again depends on depth of the bed

[tough parcel]

How so? Because it would only be useful if up to ~knees or upper arm, but it would also make it difficult to turn quickly because of the ridge

[calm agate]

So you're ignoring the paper then? That points out directly that they have anatomy for digging and notes there are multiple specimens interestingly half-buried in a resting pose.

[tough parcel]

So you're ignoring the practicality of what I said? Because you have not responded directly to the argument I have proposed. As well as the fact that the resting pose could be attributed to sandstorms, no? An animal hunkering down to hide would be buried. Does Citipati burrow because of "Big Mama"?

[woeful falcon]

I feel like there's a disconnect here between arguments and the keyword here is "resting pose"

[tough parcel]

Also this is very interesting (Comes from the same paper you provided)

[warped peak]

Animals don't always act smart

They can be adapted to things that may not seem advantageous but as long as it worked. Look at Koala's, sea horses, and sloths

[lavish frigate]

Ok. I bet fifty dollars that an Alderon (insert animal) will appear in the next ten to fifteen minutes. Who’s in on the bet.

[kindred night]

No because Citipati doesn't have any clear as day adaptations to burrowing that's seen across an entire clade.

[warped peak]

Logical action =/= the action taken

Digging may not save an Ankylosaur from a Tyrannosaurus but it might save it from anything else

[tough parcel]

The same paper also says this (Regarding the anatomical adaptations)

[loud python]

A lot of animal defense is just making you not worth the trouble to kill and eat them. Ankylosaurs are already pretty good at being terrible food items (mostly gut space, full of armor, deterrent club) if you kill an ankylosaur and still can't get it out of a hole after the fact you've wasted your time and energy for a meal you can't eat

[calm agate]

No because unlike the Ankylosaurs, Citipati lacks any anatomical adaptations for digging or burrowing. Given that anatomical adaptations are there it's a pretty good indicator they can dig.
Also we're talking about them resting in shallow pits they've dug out not full on burrowing so the screenshot you have provided doesn't exactly disprove what is being suggested.

[tough parcel]

But this one does, no?

[stiff osprey]

No ankylosaurs have adaptations for burrowing

[clear solar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1210838849350008833/1234337732327637112/image.png?ex=66305e18&is=662f0c98&hm=aec906457096e4fa272c55f1759e182134b6dd302411efba2f3dcff3d096ab16&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[calm agate]

Here's the paragraph immediately following, try not to cherry pick we can read the article.

[tough parcel]

Yes, I did indeed read that. But it is only one of their interpretations of the data they received. I chose to not include that because it was not being addressed. Gonna clarify even further, as in you have already said + read about this, thus I wanted to bring up other parts that had not been.

[stiff osprey]

They're very bad at digging forward, or above them, or to the sides

They are however pretty good at digging below them for roots or something

[warped peak]

It also could just be an extra option they had just for emergency situations

Just saying @strange bridge you might like this conversation

[vernal rain]

why are most of the mods gone from POT

[tough parcel]

Update decimated them also #modding

[loud python]

and again if they're generally found half buried in resting poses then it could be the little dugout is just for when they're sleeping, ensures its harder for them to get caught unaware and flipped over during that time.

[vernal rain]

thanks

[tough parcel]

Also onto the "making themselves hard to eat"

Animals that do this usually employ tatics that would allow them to live before the predators found out. Most of them are very vile-tasting so the predators spit them out before they are killed

[fading dune]

Question i know this is paleo chat but I dont know where the suport ticket is but is the new updated Struthi going to be omnivore since paleontologist claimed it was?

[strange bridge]

Turtles taste pretty good and get stuck in a lot of awkward places

[tough parcel]

Yes? And I've seen alligators make meals of them lots of times. It's just no regular predators (beyond crocodilians and big cats) are capable of crunching through the shell

[stiff osprey]

I think a trench would work fine as a defense for an ankylosaur, except that it would have to dig one in a predetermined spot and somehow happen to be there when a tyrannosaur attacks it

It's not going to dig itself in in .05 seconds like a horned lizard

[strange bridge]

Yes, alligators arent slaughtering them en masse though. If the strategy allows for enough to survive, even if a small percent is consumed by specialiast feeders, it works. Nature is like that

[tough parcel]

But I am unaware of turtles digging a little ditch to hide in every time

Most of the time I'm aware of, they are in open water or land. Even then, open water turtle attacks use that to their advantage and maneuver the broadside of their shell to their attacker

[loud python]

having funny little trenches dotted around in ankylosaur territory would be funny. I'd wonder is sand substrate could help in the time regard tho

[tough parcel]

Yes, but it would still be time that could be used pivoting around smacking the tyrannosaur's skull into fragments

[warped peak]

Nobody says it has to be frequent.

But evidence very clearly says it at least happens sometimes.

[loud python]

but personally the ankylosaur bedroom seems like a plausible idea

[calm agate]

The pivoting it can 100% do when it's asleep of course

[tough parcel]

I am unaware of where that comes in? An animal needs to sleep?

[warped peak]

Yes and the pit would let it sleep safer

Anything is better than nothing

[strange bridge]

I guess they don't really need the trenches in the first place, since in theory they could survive off just being a painful item to touch thats also low to the ground. Look at the lizards that lash away groups of lions. Though that doesn't take away from it just using the probably softer terrain to its advantage, since that seems to be a strange trend with ankylosaurs and the environments they are recovered from.

[loud python]

its a lot more common than animals that 'don't' sleep

[woeful falcon]

Mind you I haven't read the paper proper and just reviewing the convo thus far, but if the whole "resting pose" is anything to go off of, I would naturally infer that ankylosaurs may have created or opted for small depressions to lie in during times of rest for added protection of their undersides where I presume they are most vulnerable rather than implying they used these as full blown defensive structures

[tough parcel]

And when it is asleep, would it not be best to be in a position where as soon as you detect a threat, you can jump into defensive mode?

[warped peak]

Vs just not being vulnerable when sleeping

[strange bridge]

Tails covered in painful bits are good for that

[tough parcel]

You can still achieve the same effect when laying down (as ankylosaurs are not light), but also be able to pivot due to your legs being free to move better

[warped peak]

Wasn't there also evidence of Ankylosaurs being nocturnal or am I mixing up details?

Based on stuff comparing eyesight to smell and hearing

[stiff osprey]

I don't know of any such thing no

[elder robin]

local tyrannosaurs after finding sleeping ankylosaur who wasnt in a burrow:

[tough parcel]

I am fairly certain, though willing to be corrected, that the best evidence for diurnal-nocturnal behavior is through the sclerotic ring which I do not think we have any for ankylosaurs

[warped peak]

I'll do some digging later

[tough parcel]

Though I also just realized that, minus Ankylosaurus itself, ankylosaurs do not get very big compared to the local apex predator. Imo, this would indicate that the tyrannosaur could have just dragged the corpse out of the shallow hole the ankylosaur dug, essentially its own grave

Especially if we believe most tyrannosaurs were social to some degree

[warped peak]

That'd happen regardless of if it was in a hole or not

[clear solar]

ah yes, while in non conscience state of mind and easily able to be filpped over, exposing my soft underside, and thus being killed by what giant theropod of the area. When i can simply bury myself into the ground, thus only my armored dorsal side is only visable on the ground.

[tough parcel]

I have addressed this

[loud python]

two scenarios:

Anky is asleep entirely above ground. The predator sneaks in and immediately grabs the head or arm and is able to control the situation entirely, or it can get into position to attempt a flip before the ankylosaur is awake.

Ankylosaur is asleep in a ground depression, the arms, head, and legs are either inaccessible or very difficult to get a hold of. Attempting to flip the animal is also not really an option as the theropod cannot get even close to under the animal in this situation. No good angle of attack is present other than potentially breaking one of it's two legs by stepping on something that will panic and move

[warped peak]

That doesn't matter if the Tyrannosaur already has you in its mouth

[stiff osprey]

I don't think a small ankylosaur would be easy to drag out of a hole in the ground, though honestly I do not think it would be easy to flip while asleep either

[loud python]

would be harder to flip in a hole though ;^>

[scenic flame]

have you tried taking the ground with it like jack horner

[warped peak]

The real Scavengers were the Jack Horners we met along the way

[tough parcel]

Illustration

[next radish]

smol

[stiff osprey]

I question how often flipping was actually employed as a strategy when hunting ankylosaurs, I feel like it's less dangerous for the predator to hit and run aiming at the head or the top side until it gets through

[tough parcel]

^ This as well as the fact we have an ankylosaur skull with Tarbosaurus bite marks (I don't recall if there are two though)

[warped peak]

I mean honestly I think there's no reason against it being something they did alongside everything else

A secondary option never hurts and they did clearly like to rest in pits, based on our fossil record

[next radish]

There’s only the one, that being the holotype of T. teresae or whatever it is now, which also interestingly enough shows signs of healing and I think infection as well

[tough parcel]

Also I feel the sandy substrate would work against a burrowing ankylosaur, no?

Think of it as like trying to pick up a penny. On tile, it's really hard because you can't get your fingers under it. While on loose ground (sand), it's much easier because you can dig your fingers under the penny and pull

[warped peak]

That's... not even close to comparable

[tough parcel]

I am referring to the head area, not the entire animal, hence the usage of penny because their heads are essentially that size (A joke aimed to bully ankylosaurs)

[stiff osprey]

Well, it would be easier to dig an ankylosaur out of sandy substrate than out of packed earth, yes

But an ankylosaur would never be able to bury itself in harder substrates to begin with, so it's not relevant

[loud python]

a little bed could also help make the ankylosaur less likely to be found since it'd make the shadows under the animal much less visible. Combined with the side osteoderms and hypothetical cryptic coloration it could be a good way to avoid confrontation entirely too

[warped peak]

It would basically just look like a rock when sleeping, especially if partially submerged

[tough parcel]

Indeed it likely could be a great way to avoid confrontation

But I am hesitant to say it would be used in active defense which is the whole discussion

[strange bridge]

If your body evolved to be pain incarnate you can probably get away with doing a lot of environmental shenanigans. Even if you're asleep, a reflexive reaction will hurt or cause injury to an attacker.

Ankylosaurs had a variety of skull shapes for niche partitioning and from Borealopelta, employed countershading (said countershading goes up very, very high on the body, highlighting the low to the ground lifestyle)

Considering what they lived with and their adaptations it's safe to say theres a pretty big margin of pressures present that could have resulted in a lot of stealthy behaviors.

[stiff osprey]

it does make more sense as a kind of camouflage yeah

[loud python]

to be fair I've stated that I personally believe it being primarily for defense while asleep

[tough parcel]

I am afraid there was a disconnect if the intention of the original was that it would be to act as a "natural camouflage"

Not as a way to defend against an in-progress attack

Oh my god, I think they stealth-increased the slowmode. It's 50 secs now

[next radish]

cough Borealopelta’s countershading might be an artefact of human caused pollution cough

[calm agate]

The initial question was just about whether they were capable of it not whether it was used in active combat. Which is why we were all talking about the paper mentioning it resting.

[elder robin]

https://tenor.com/view/gotg-what-chris-pratt-starlord-guardians-of-the-galaxy-gif-11287925

[tough parcel]

Then the "burrowing" being used as camouflage during resting is not a topic that should be focused imo

[calm agate]

... why? The guy was asking if they dug at all and you outright said no without considering the actual functionality of digging. There is no reason to not focus on the actual functional uses for digging.

[strange bridge]

🤷‍♂️ Lots of animals have countershading, but even if that wasnt something they have, the pressures were present for them to develop adjacent adaptations or behaviors for a stealthier lifestyle

[tough parcel]

The initial question was just about whether they were capable of it not whether it was used in active combat.

This is why

[stiff osprey]

Borealo's countershading is not a predator defense anyway, the authors note that it is most effective against predators that are eye level with Borealopelta

Which is... none of its predators

[warped peak]

To also be fair, a pit doesn't have to be as tall as the entire animal

A shallow pit, deep enough to make it harder to flip without impeding movement much might genuinely be helpful

[next radish]

True

[tough parcel]

I did indeed say this, but due to how short ankylosaur legs are, the depth of this pit would need to be either incredibly precise or so shallow, it's useless

[strange bridge]

Jarvis pull up the list of short legged digging animals

[warped peak]

What we need is a burrowing Ankylosaur

Crawl in a hole and nobody is fighting you

[stiff osprey]

Unless... the Borealopelta was hiding from the Albian Deinosuchus

[loud python]

the suggestion I've seen is basically just enough to hide the legs and belly area. Far from useless as it'd further protect those areas. especially if these are beds

[scenic flame]

I beg to differ

[tough parcel]

Which are? And do they burrow in the exact same fashion and reason as the one being discussed?

Oh my jesus, the slo-mo's 1 minute, moderators why do you insist on being bad 😭

[warped peak]

I mean Armadillos

Pangolins

[tribal sandal]

The timer set on our channels is to help aid staff members, increasing or decreasing the timer will only be updated accordingly depending on the availability of moderators and how active the said channel is. Otherwise, let's avoid mentions of the timer as this is considered off-topic. Thank you!

[strange bridge]

IIRC digging is more dependent on whats attached at the end of the limb rather than total length of the limb

[scenic flame]

iirc short limbs are actually a selected trait for burrowing animals; moles, pigs, badgers, turtles, gators tortoise

[warped peak]

Is there a channel or a location to provide feedback regarding the discord?

[keen forum]

falcon i think ya blind mate they do dig

[strange bridge]

Shovels can be short or long, the mechanics of digging would not be limited from ankylosaurs

[tough parcel]

However, the issue here is most of these (minus pigs and somewhat gators) actually burrow deep into the ground. They do not use shallow holes to defend themselves

Ok nah, this is actually miserable. PoT mail bot time

[next radish]

erm hippos have short legs (no, I’m not suggesting that it was amphibious)

[tribal sandal]

You can either use our feedback board :https://feedback.pathoftitans.com/ Or you can message our @feral crane Bot

[loud python]

these are the depths I've generally seen suggested (ground level would be more in line with the belly in this case while it's asleep)

[strange bridge]

Animals with both wide feet and very narrow feet can be prolific at digging too

[native kindle]

do ankylosaurs have the claws necessary for digging like they do(nvm) (i hate this slowmode)

[stiff osprey]

Server took 3 to 5 business days to censor that message

[keen forum]

more digging lads

[tribal sandal]

General chat reminder to please be polite and respectful, and do not provoke or antagonize other users, Otherwise mutes will be handed out. Refer to our ⁠ #rules

[tough parcel]

These are pre-made elaborate burrows though. They are not constructed at the moment of attack.

[scenic flame]

I was making a light hearted joke about the pangolin not burrowing, wasn't referring to falcon in said message

[native kindle]

i feel like an important thing to mention was that thing abt the nostrils falcon brought up, wouldn't they need some kind of protection for their schnozz? in regards to snorting sand and dirt

[elder robin]

since when have we been discussing it constructing a burrow right as its being attacked?

[strange bridge]

A lot of ankylosaur facial scales were extensively armor like

Like potentially even to the eyelids from what I remember

[loud python]

(it was deleted because Pangolins aren't Xenarthrans, not because you swore /jk)

[tough parcel]

The whole...time? The discussion is using a hole for protection against active predation. Unless it makes a hole every single time it moves 50 feet, then it is dug during the attack

[native kindle]

ready up borealopelta!

[calm agate]

I feel like throughout this discussion you are the only one who has been thinking of it for immediate defence and immediate defence alone whereas everyone else has just been talking about their ability to dig in general. The thing the original question was about.

[loud python]

Animals do tend to try and escape to premade burrows when attacked though it's worth noting

[tough parcel]

.

[stiff osprey]

It's not that they dig a new one each time they're attacked, they either dig one before going to sleep or return to an existing one every night

[woeful falcon]

resting pose!

[keen forum]

no one said they needed to be made during an attack and they can be used to escape if close by

[strange bridge]

Animals aren't video game characters they arent limited by cooldowns or whatnot

[elder robin]

Thats a nice argument senator, but why don't you back it up with a source?
The original message that started this whole convo was just a guy asking if there was a paper talking about burrowing ankylosaurs.

[warped peak]

Okay but is there any evidence of Stegosaurs doing this

[iron halo]

How would that even work

[woeful falcon]

even worse, they're limited by physics

unless they're cats

[tough parcel]

Nvm I give up on finding these, there is too many and the chat keeps popping down and it annoys me

Anyways, that is indeed interesting, but I have not flat out denied digging as far as I know? Nor have I said anything disregarding the original comment. I have indeed focused on the idea of active predation defense, but I have acknowledge it is capable of being used at other times

[strange bridge]

Stegosaurs are bootleg sauropods

[scenic flame]

just like Frankenstein

[loud python]

Stegosaurus sitting in a 2 meter deep burrow to avoid the mighty allosaurus

[warped peak]

Don't Stegosaurs have a miserably sparse fossil record?

[fading dune]

Idk if this is relevant or not but found this hope it helps? Nvm wint show link?

[tough parcel]

I said so here

Wait goddamnit, that wasn't it

[stiff osprey]

Stegosaur digs a pit for its deeper-than-wide body to hide in and then fu[king dies the morning after because it can't get out 😔

[tough parcel]

Here we go

[strange bridge]

Please give stegosaurs fat necks and please have that chinese stegosaur not be skin slippage it would be so funny

[native kindle]

is there an official ranking for dinosaurs considered the most rotund

[next radish]

Unlike this chat

[warped peak]

1. Lianingosaurus
2. Tyrannosaurus
3. Jack Horner

[stiff osprey]

Would ankylosaurs be disqualified because they are wider than deep, thus making them flat instead of round?

[next radish]

I’m pretty sure that article is referring to that exact same specimen that everyone’s been talking about

[tough parcel]

But that is an over-simplification of the conclusions of the referred paper

[loud python]

F l a t

[fading dune]

I cant share the link sorry wont let me i rather not share whole thing im sure that would annoy everyone 🤷‍♀️

[sullen cairn]

why is this channel only active when the conversation's stupid

[next radish]

Better image

[iron halo]

Dumb conversations foster heated arguments❤️‍🔥

[stiff osprey]

ah good you're here I can go to sleep

[sullen cairn]

for the record i don't intend on adding any productive commentary

[tough parcel]

The paper link has already been shared though? We are also already in the progress of discussing said paper (and adding our thoughts)

[native kindle]

i want to know which dinosaur i can look at and think "woah..,.,. circle"

[elder robin]

i shall now leave but anyway before that
everyone vs this one guy:
https://tenor.com/view/choke-funny-wwe-wrestling-gif-12039207150533197720

[sullen cairn]

what the hell why is lancian here

[strange bridge]

Remember to support your local fossil traffickers

[stiff osprey]

for a brief second there we had a frieren gif posted followed by "lancianidolatry is typing...." and I think that's beautiful

anyway bye

[iron halo]

Modern birds are a good start

[fading dune]

Didnt know that i just now seen you talking about it was curious but animals are weird we can only Speculate how dinosaurs were through Paleontology as we cant study them Im sure they were just as wild weird , chaotic and violent as modern day animals just 10x worst who knows

[amber thunder]

im the biggest fan of PoT what can i say, and i hear this is where all the cool kids hang

[sullen cairn]

well you walked into one of the more idiotic convos that have happened here in weeks so whoop de doo

[native kindle]

this is true ! welcome

[tough parcel]

Imo if the only defense being provided (now) is the whole "We'll never know" argument, the convo's over and clearly my team has won A great battle of wits has concluded

[sullen cairn]

so does anyone actually like know what's happening right now

[scenic flame]

oh! oh! Can I be good at denial??

[loud python]

lancian is here and I'm scared

[tough parcel]

I don't see anything being said from you people that has not been directly countered (or outright debunked)

[next radish]

nuff said

[strange bridge]

Amazing

[native kindle]

burrowing ankylosaurs and how that's used to defend itself/plausibility ?? i think

[iron halo]

Ankylosaurs were dinosaurs (checkmate)

[sullen cairn]

i got that part but when did this turn into a cheesy romcom

[fading dune]

Eh rather silly to get heated up over such things we really have No clue how dinosaurs were we can only gather data through what they ate how we " think " they acted etc and so on but still dinosaurs are awesome

[native kindle]

yiu see, round jsur like brain. ankylosur melt brain : )

[amber thunder]

anyways the primary issue is the overlap between the supposed digging adaptations and adaptations large ornithischians who are propelled by their front legs first (i.e ankylosaurs and ceratopsians) is rather large. ankylosaurs could probbaly dig soft sediment, sure, but in the same vein a lot of animals, including us, can- and a desert animal would prob need to dig to allow more oppurtunities for water and food. however, that is not the same as burrowing, and i dont see these animals as actively making their own burrows

[tough parcel]

Not heated, just stating my opinion on what is happening? As I've noticed everyone defending burrowing (to a decent degree) ankylosaurs has vanished. Though I assume they will claim that we're just not understanding anything and we're in denial

Nvm, I'm leaving cause this slo-mode was kicked up to one minute twenty seconds

[sullen cairn]

can yall just make things up and kiss already

[loud python]

We've been taking about little dugout beds, not full on burrows

[strange bridge]

This is so sad can we make dakotaraptor valid

[fading dune]

Who?? 😮

[native kindle]

im seeing very minimal rotund dinosaurs and im very disappointed in paleo-chat. WOOOOO YEAH BABY THAT'S WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT

[iron halo]

I sent the literal rotundest of dinosaurs a bit ago

[keen forum]

you've been countered by like 5 dif ppl about ankys digging being a thing they are able to do and possible did in creating a lil bed like spot for themselves

[next radish]

Was Falcon in disagreement of digging or burrowing because they’re two different things

[tough parcel]

@keen forum

[sullen cairn]

poor lancian he's been dropped into pot paleo chat brainrot kicking and screaming

[fading dune]

Its starting up again...

[scenic flame]

from what I could tell falcon it's mainly talking about using it as active defense, rather than as a bed or safe space

[native kindle]

clearly, ankylosaurs were capable of similar burrowing(digging? sand :3) as Hexophthalma hahni

[strange bridge]

Well I'm rather wide and I dig into a hole when stressed so it checks out

[fading dune]

But why?as in the game or as what it would do if it was living and facing a predator?

[amber thunder]

i heavily doubt that theyd be making beds for themselves. being large xeric animals means they need to be on the move, and thats a lot of sediment they need to move around in order submerge even half of their body. its one of those things that might sound neat on paper but doesnt make sense in practice. if a tarbosaur spots an ankylosaur from a distance the anks not gonna have the ability to dig itself a bed in time. im unaware its front limbs are even capable of moving of fast enough to dispel sediment the way something like an armadillo might

[warped peak]

Birds don't make nests for defense either to be fair

[loud python]

A bed for sleeping is the suggestion mainly here (which would probably be pretty useful during the heat of the day to lay in cooler sediments too), in addition to obscuring outline and protecting underside while inactive

[strange bridge]

If anything for defense of the eggs themselves

[native kindle]

ankylosaurs actually used the tail clubs to lure in a mate, clearly

[warped peak]

Still, a slightly safer spot to sleep never hurts, even if its not useful in combat

[keen forum]

@tough parcel

"No study, but think about it logically:

You're an ankylosaur, whose major defense is hunkering low to the ground and using your tail to beat anyone who gets close enough to death. But if you were to burrow, you're rendering that tail useless because you can't move to swing it towards your attacker.

Then there's your head. If it's on/in the ground, the resident megatheropod can just step on it and c r u n c h, there goes you.

*I think ankylosaur nostrils are also downturned which means they'd be inhaling dirt if they were burrowing"

meanwhile there are a few studies about them digging and the question was asked about them digging into the ground something that these papers kinda agreed on and pointed too

[amber thunder]

i mean these animals would prob just be like any other animal and during the day just hang around and take it slow if it was getting really hot. again, theres nothing that points to bedding/burrowing that cant partially or wholly be explained by just how the ankylosaur forelimb fundamentally works. and youd still prob need to be moving around a little

[fading dune]

I know tortoise make burrows for staying cool or hibernation same for turtle species but never know dont think it would use it for defence but like mabye do a huffle shuffle and flop down

[tough parcel]

The conversation has...evolved? I am unsure why you are focusing on the single starting message when there are, at this point, probably hundreds of messages of discussion afterwards

[loud python]

given the clubs might have (initially) appeared for combat between two individual ankylosaurs, not a terrible suggestion

[warped peak]

New discussion: Spinosaurus

Bipedal, Tripedal, or Quadropedal

[native kindle]

it's midnight and im getting silly

[next radish]

No

[sullen cairn]

this conversation has gone down a different path... a path of titanic proportions... a path... of titans

[iron halo]

No

[strange bridge]

I think Spinosaurus is dead

[amber thunder]

who up titanicing they paths

[fading dune]

Its funny though

[tough parcel]

Titanic...?

[loud python]

tail isn't the new terrifying length (+30-40 more vertebra) , which makes bipedal work as it actually puts the CoM in the right spot for standing like any other theropod

[warped peak]

Quintapedal Spinosaurus

I figured it out

[sullen cairn]

this channel is indeed a sinking ship

[fading dune]

Some speculate that titantic wasnt titanic but thats not paleo talk so nvm

[iron halo]

It happened in the past and is therefore paleo (real)

[loud python]

the paper did mention quite afew ankylosaurs found in resting postures that are half buried. Might be a notable thing towards the conversation of beds or not

[next radish]

Ah yes, the first clade ever to evolve digging to just make beds

[amber thunder]

the issue is if the interpretation that they (presumably pinacosaurus, but possibly more specimens) died in a sandstorm is correct there is a much more obvious reason why they may be half buried lol

[tough parcel]

That is legit what I said 😭

As well as the fact that the resting pose could be attributed to sandstorms, no? An animal hunkering down to hide would be buried

[lavish frigate]

In a perfect world spino tail drags and has a goose posture

[loud python]

guess that'd be the thing of 'more study required' to see if it looks like they were just buried or if the half they were initially under was more dugout and then buried rest of the way by a later sandstorm

though that may be hard to determine ||this timer is killing me||

[fading dune]

Thoughts on the Desmatosuchus i know its not a dinosaur but a aetosaur but looks intresting

[strange bridge]

Food

[loud python]

Desmato is cool but Paratypothorax is a much better Aetosaur

[strange bridge]

Weird question but do any accredited paleontologists talk in these channels

[warped peak]

Alderon Lorikeet

[fading dune]

I know but would be fun to play either one i think the Paratypothorax is smaller right correct me if im wrong

[halcyon cobalt]

Thoughts on ant eater pinacosaurus

[kindred night]

https://tenor.com/view/you-rang-gif-20538562

[loud python]

oh i misspoke it's just Typothorax that's the best one (aslo IIRC there may eb larger specimens of this lad)

[fading dune]

Ohh thats cool! Wow its rather round but cute

[strange bridge]

Oh word, mad respect if so

I was just going to ask if there are any good visual references for ankylosaur trackways. Something clear and above 50 pixels in resolution ideally

[keen forum]

PD no, i fear the sail man

[steady rock]

what are some mesozoic formations that were most defiently deserts?

[bright veldt]

Djadokthta, Kayenta, and Candeleros come to mind

[steady rock]

was the negmet formation a desert or a flood plain, well, not flood plain but not how its most commonly depicted

[bright veldt]

Nemegt was a temperate fluvial valley. Largely open plains with wetlands surrounded by mountains. The Gobi Desert (and Djadoktha with it) were contemporary with it to the west.

[steady rock]

i remember falcon saying it could've snowed there if my memory from last year serves correct? do i believe that? ehhh, maybe not

[bright veldt]

Probably not commonly but it did snow yeah. It was temperate environment with the 4 seasons.

[steady rock]

i was looking at the wiki page for the kayenta formation to see what fuana lived there and it said scelido was a controversial thyreophoran, i have not heard of any debates or controversy surrounding it ToT

[amber thunder]

i think its scelidosaurus' presence in kayenta and not the taxon itself that is controversial

[steady rock]

oh okay, could the fossil evidence of it being there just be a different species?

[bright veldt]

It's just osteoderms. They're probably not scelido at all. A relative probably.

[steady rock]

i know this might be a dumb question but why were the creatures in Moreno Hill Formation so small?

okay not tiny, but quiet small compared to species from that time

[flint stream]

the real vegan crocodile

[tough parcel]

We found who pitched the Quetz-rex segment (Witton's new piece)

[halcyon cobalt]

the woke mob...

[white matrix]

the sun article

sir david attenborough's bbc1 dinosaur show presents softer woke version of the t-rex

[warped peak]

I woke up to see this in my feed and I almost decided to go back to sleep

My 2 favorite weasels

Not gonna even mention all the temporal anomalies in this tree like Amphicyon being derived from an animal that didn't even evolve until well after it went extinct

[last iron]

Why is Homotherium classified as a canid 💀

[tough parcel]

Hm ping?

[neat drum]

what word in that is not allowed???? there was literally nothing bad or even a swear in that i think the censor is broken LMAO

[neat drum]

anyways, this makes way more sense than rex being driven off by quetz tbf, just scavengers harassing a predator for the good bits

[lavish frigate]

Dang. Now I want this is a poster. That’d be sick….

[daring forge]

u and me both

[dull ravine]

Hey everyone, quick question: what is the oldest boidae, or at least the oldest snake capable of constriction ? Thx a lot !

[sharp canyon]

Peters

[nocturne merlin]

https://tenor.com/view/harry-potter-dont-speak-his-name-gif-12688511

[pliant cedar]

dont you see with the resemblance with dogs

[nocturne merlin]

this? this? this? this? this? or this?

[stiff osprey]

the first and second one are good, the rest are outdated versions of the same works

[bright hawk]

Nerf allo

[bright veldt]

Wrong chat

[crude latch]

Nah Nerf if, go back in time and nerf it.

[barren lagoon]

whats the most recent/accurate Ceratosaur reconstruction

[crude latch]

What are those weird holes always shown on the side of tullimonstrum?

[ancient crystal]

Ah yes, my favorite phylogenetic group: South Americans

At this point, I am convinced Peters is just playing a prank on paleontology

[warped peak]

Gills

I mean

We have Laurasatheria or whatever don't we? South American mammals isn't a super weird catagory

[ancient crystal]

But that isn't the same as "weasel" or "canid"

It literally just says "South American" which, without the chart right next to it, tells you nothing about the animals relation to one another.

Not that the chart does its job well anyway seeing as it places homotherium as a canid

[storm heron]

The question is, who is the scavenger in this scenario.

[fading dune]

Mabye its a Lion and Hyena type of thing , both scavenge and steal food from eachother?

[arctic crane]

They seem so much small in game lol

[woeful falcon]

Might just be my general familiarity with their sizes, but I never got that impression personally

[topaz shell]

PoT cera actually feels like a medium carnivore (unlike yknow)

[steady rock]

y'all, can i say something controversial

[sharp canyon]

Never we hate opinions/j

[steady rock]

whats a paleotology/paleotology community opinion that will have you like this?

[sharp canyon]

Life On Our Planet wasn't that bad

[steady rock]

oh, why do people think its bad?

[sharp canyon]

A combination of things mainly some animals not being all that accurate but I at least enjoyed it

[bright veldt]

It was mid.

[steady rock]

do you have any opinions you wanna share

[pulsar galleon]

People have gone too far with the “hadrosaurs aren’t defenseless” thing and now people think that an adult edmontosaurus would be “too dangerous” for an adult tyrannosaurus to hunt. Even though edmontosaurus lacks weaponry to combat a similar size animal.

[steady rock]

it wouldnt say it lacks weaponary, but yeah, i can see where your coming from

[sharp canyon]

When you're as big as an Edmontosaurus, you are the weaponry

[steady rock]

also your herd mates being with you are also weaponary as they can be a deterient

[sharp canyon]

Remember when someone asked why Parasaurolophus would fight an Allosaurus in regards to Para in a certain other game? You know despite Para being several times bigger than Allo

[bright veldt]

Hadrosaurs and ceratopsids are prey animals in their ecosystem. It's as simple as that. They were getting eaten a lot. Doesn't mean they were worthless but they were also dying a lot. That's the reality of things.

[sharp canyon]

Indeed

[pulsar galleon]

The issue is that it’s not a sauropod. It doesn’t completely dwarf tyrannosaurus the same way argentinosaurus dwarfs a single Mapusaurus.

It lacks weaponry compared to the likes of Ankylosaurus, Torosaurus, and Triceratops

[steady rock]

i mean, its dwarfs majority of the tyrannosaurs seeing how trex could range from 5 tons to 10 ( i think, i haven talked paleo since 2023.... )

[pulsar galleon]

The average edmontosaurus is ~6t, and I would comfortably bet on a 5t Rex over a 6t hadrosaur

[sharp canyon]

Now I'm curious what's realistically the average size for an adult Rex with things like early deaths in mind

[steady rock]

can i ask a question

would stegosaurids have filled the prey item niche in their ecosystem like ceratopsians did but just for the jurassic?

[bright veldt]

Most predators are capable of handling prey up to double their size if they really want to, and even the largest edmontosaurs were in that ballpark.

[sharp canyon]

Yeah

[tough parcel]

Me when

[bright veldt]

Stegosaurs were almost certainly preyed on by various theropod dinosaurs, but I'd bet on them being unironically one of the most dangerous herbivores next to giant sauropods.

[pulsar galleon]

Stegosaurus specifically, probably no, it was rather formidable and not as abundant as other, easier prey in the Morrison such as ornithopods and juvenile sauropods.

For other stegosaurids idk

[bright veldt]

Their thagomizers are unironically the most dangerous weapon ever conceived by a herbivorous dinosaur, especially stegosaurus's.

[tough parcel]

Adult rex? ~7-8 tons

[sharp canyon]

My general rule of thumb as far as animals go is that everything can be eaten at some point in its life. Doesn't matter if you're a carnivore, herbivore, omnivore, etc

[steady rock]

the reason i asked this question was because you left out Thyreophora, so i was wondering it stegosaurids, nodasaurids and ankylosaurids would fall into your common prey item category?

[pulsar galleon]

Excluding like… adult giant titanosaurs after the extinction of carcharodontosauridae

[sharp canyon]

No those can be eaten as younglings

[pulsar galleon]

Oh I thought you meant at any point in their life lmao

[bright veldt]

Hmm, it depends. Ankylosaurs seemed to never really be a staple diet for large theropod dinosaurs, even if they were still taken. In the Morrison formation, the most common non-sauropod herbivores were camptosaurus and stegosaurus. I'd imagine the primary diet of most large Morrison theropods was camptosaurus and the plentiful young of the various giants.

[steady rock]

also, would it be okay if you could elaborate why you think the thagamizer is the greatest precieved weapon option a herbivore has evolved? because i feel like a ankylosaurs tail club could give it competetion for that title

[tough parcel]

The issue is ankylosaur fossils are very few and far between with dietary studies on the resident tyrannosaurs being even worse

The only study I can think of is the Tarbo one showing ankylosaurs were a fairly common prey item with one individual having a taste for em

[bright veldt]

You can survive a broken leg in the right circumstances. You aren't surviving being impaled by a 3-foot spike in the torso and chest cavity.

[sullen cairn]

i think the greatest herbivore weapon would be the devestating therizinosaurus claw

[sharp canyon]

Easy, it's a set of big spikes on a body part far from the vitals so can be swung around with little worry to self harm

[pulsar galleon]

tail weaponry in general is extraordinarily effective, though the thagomizer has greater range, more points of contact, and can still go straight through bone as seen by some allosaurus fossils

[tough parcel]

The tarbosaur is impaled instantly…

[steady rock]

ooh okay, but wouldnt the same apply to getting impaled by a ceratopsians horns or a claw swipe by a therinosaurid?

[bright veldt]

A stegosaurus's thagomizers could be lethal to even the giant sauropods if they strike the right area, let alone its predators.

[pulsar galleon]

though triceratops’ horns are also up there in terms of lethal herbivorous dinosaur weaponry

Perfectly positioned to gore contemporary theropod predators with insane musculature to back it up.

[sharp canyon]

It really does beg the question of why clubs and thagomizers went out of style

[sullen cairn]

did clubs ever really go out of style

[bright veldt]

I would give it to triceratops if current evidence didn't point to tyrannosaurus not being as regularly killed by them as many fans try to say. Also, therizinosaurus's claws, while still probably were used defensively, were not great defensive weapons. They were primarily for display.

[pulsar galleon]

In dinosaurs or animals in general?

Glyptodonts had tail clubs

[steady rock]

i mean, theres still tail weaponary, just look at whales, im pretty sure a sperm whales tail could decapitate you, i heard that from a youtube video so trust

[sharp canyon]

In general

[sullen cairn]

granted a sperm whale is also somewhat larger than a person

[pulsar galleon]

A whale tail isn’t really a club though, just a byproduct of being massive

[tough parcel]

That’s just the result of outweighing everything by a factor of 200

[bright veldt]

Glyptodont tail clubs weren't really for predators, more for each other. Just hunkering down for glyptodonts was enough of a defense.

[sharp canyon]

Understatement of the century

[steady rock]

oh, then why couldnt the same be said about a sauropods tail?

[tough parcel]

What

[pulsar galleon]

They don’t have tail clubs aside from Shunosaurus

[steady rock]

well i mean, i feel like getting hit by a sauropods tail would probably be lethal to alot of things

[sharp canyon]

Yes some animals still use their tails but they don't typically have clubs or thagomizers nowadays

[tough parcel]

Yes, I do not think that was ever denied?

[sullen cairn]

actually i denied it pay attention

[bright veldt]

I mean yeah but that really stretches what we mean at this point. If you want to be technical a sauropod's mass is one of the most dangerous things on Earth lol.

[sullen cairn]

right up there with sharks and leaded paint

[tough parcel]

The feeble Mapusaurus when the Argentinosaurus elbow drop

[bright veldt]

Sauropod tails weren't evolved specifically for anti-predator defense. They are what they are haha.

[pulsar galleon]

They’re counterbalances for the gigantic neck

[sullen cairn]

explain this mr smarty pants

[sharp canyon]

Bro missed the memo, put his points into the wrong place

[pulsar galleon]

His neck has the density of tungsten and therefore requires the large tail

[tough parcel]

The black hole sauropod

[steady rock]

if you could cook and eat one prehestoric creature, what creature would it be and how would you do it?

[sullen cairn]

actually this reminds of that guy in ornithischia last week saying that brachytrachelopan had no predators because the almost nonexistant theropod material from its formation was smaller than it

[sharp canyon]

Any dromaeosaur, fried like chicken

[bright veldt]

I feel like a lot of the smaller theropods might've just relied on still being chunky and dense cover.

[steady rock]

would that make them tasty

[bright veldt]

Kinda like how tapirs deal with jaguars. They don't really fight and more just bolt and dare the predator to stop them as they crash through trees and tons of hard foliage.

[sullen cairn]

a tapir in musth however....

[tough parcel]

Truly a fool, clearly he wasn’t aware the theropod hunted in packs of 200, akin to the fearsome Allosaurus….

[bright veldt]

I can't yo

[tough parcel]

Huh

[sharp canyon]

Imagine seeing a small ceratopsian barreling through trees on a monday morning

[pulsar galleon]

The survival of nigersaurus is truly one of paleontology’s greatest mysteries :skrunkle_side_smile:

[sullen cairn]

skrunkle_side_smile

[steady rock]

it kinda isnt

[bright veldt]

tbf idek either

[steady rock]

im pretty sure this thing is fat

[tough parcel]

The repulsive Nigersaurus, just as Larramendi described

[sharp canyon]

Anyways what on God's green earth is this

[bright veldt]

Poor thing lived with a kaiju

[pulsar galleon]

It’s a tiny sauropod with absolutely 0 way of defending itself from any of the three large contemporary predators, nor is it at all possible for it to outrun them

[steady rock]

what if they just breed a bunch and thats how they survive, just breeding alot and reproducing alot

[pulsar galleon]

Usually a herbivore can at least do one of those things to some degree

[sharp canyon]

So we just pretending it didn't almost certainly live in herds?

[sullen cairn]

sarcosuchus when the nigersaurus walks away from the water

[nocturne merlin]

is good imo with all of the other time periods, except the mesozoic

[pulsar galleon]

That’s my theory

[steady rock]

you see sarchosuchus, actually transformed into, sarcosaurus, to go hunt them down

[bright veldt]

Eocarcharia and Suchomimus

[sullen cairn]

sadly sarcosaurus is tiny and would be slaughtered

[steady rock]

attack on nigersaurus

[tough parcel]

However, its speed and agility…

[sharp canyon]

The Guanlong was an impressive predator because it simply used Great Unmasking to become a Tyrannosaurus to hunt

[sullen cairn]

anyways i wouldn't say nigersaurus is too much more of a mystery than most of the other rebbachisaurs

[steady rock]

okay but why are we question nigersaurus when we should be questioning how the hell the sauropod smaller then magysaurus survived with carnotorus

[tough parcel]

I mean we do

It’s just everyone forgot about it in a sum total of 3 days

[sullen cairn]

it was bigger than magyarosaurus for one

[steady rock]

it was?

[sullen cairn]

its like 2.5-3t or something around that yeah

[sharp canyon]

I'm pretty sure we've already gone over how Nigersaurus survived just fine in its environment

[steady rock]

well, not everyone here was present for that conversation, no?

[pulsar galleon]

Yeah. Just seems funny to me that Nigersaurus lived with one of the largest macropredatory Pseudosuchians ever (which was also probably pretty common, sarco is one of the more abundant elrhaz megafauna iirc). And Nigersaurus is just a funny looking guy who probably used herding and fast reproduction to survive (at least imo)

[sullen cairn]

when have sauropods ever been smaller than their predators before

[steady rock]

you can live in one formation, pick one
hell creek formation

morisson formation

[sullen cairn]

do i get a house

[sharp canyon]

Wait why is Frieren being used for size here

[steady rock]

you get a sleeping bag

[sullen cairn]

@tough parcel are we able to ping lancian here

[steady rock]

was a stegosaurids thagamizers bone, ivory or whatever fingernails are made out of?

[sharp canyon]

I'd imagine bone with a layer of keratin on top

[fading dune]

🤩

[stray wren]

Bone with a layer of keratin atop. Ivory is unlikely since that's almost exclusively a probosicidean thing. Like how antlers only exist in cervidae

[river plinth]

Internets favorite dinosaur

[tough parcel]

Do it, it'd be really funny

[sweet field]

Wouldn't the tapir be clearing the way for the jaguar?

[last iron]

Afaik Jaguars prefer to ambush over actively pursue prey

[compact leaf]

not if you want to keep your spine intact

[sweet field]

that's true

[snow python]

How big was Mourasuchus? I don't trust wikipedia.

[bright veldt]

Ill check

5-6 meters

[snow python]

So the largest crocodilians would be:
Deinosuchus: 13,5m
Purussaurus: 10-11m
Rhamphosuchus:10-11m
Gryposuchus: 10m
Stomatosucus: 10m
Sarcosuchus: 9,5-10m
Euthecodon: 8-10m
Did I forgot other giant crocs 9m or larger?

[scenic flame]

I would list deinosuchus as 12-14 meters

[bright veldt]

lemme make my own ranking really quick

[last iron]

Ermmm Sarco is not a crocodilian 🤓

[bright veldt]

1. Deinosuchus (12 m, 9 tons) – (Fragmentary individuals up to 14m, 15 tons)
2. Purussaurus (10 m, 6 tons)
3. Astorgosuchus (10 m, 5 tons)
4. Sarcosuchus (9 m, 4.5 tons)
5. Chalawan (8 m, 3 tons)
   6+7. Stomatosuchus & Gryposuchus (8.5 m, 2 tons)
6. Euthecodon (8m, 1.6 tons)

Chalawan in particular is debatable, and Rhamphosuchus isn't included because it's so poorly studied. There's no reliable way to determine it's size outside of "It's a really big gavialoid".

at least from what I can find anyhow

Couldn't go any smaller or else it started getting into Crocodylus territory

[snow python]

Thanks

[warped peak]

Do we actually have specimens of 9 Ton Deinosuchus? I thought it was around 5-6 tons with fragmentary remains up to 15

[bright veldt]

We do yeah

The largest clear-cut deinosuchus is about that big.

[warped peak]

Surprised to see Astorgo that high for sure

[bright veldt]

I've only heard about it recently

https://vxtwitter.com/ZainAhmustafa/status/1686000056132902912

Going to decrease the astorgo actually cause I didn't read the fine print. I thought it was just a larger specimen.

[snow python]

I know baha was destroyed but which one is more accurate?

[warped peak]

There is no accurate Bahariasaurus

Bahariasaurus is more enigmatic than Spinosaurus

[bright veldt]

It's in limbo yeah

[snow python]

I wonder if it was in competition with carch.

[bright veldt]

Even if it was 12-ish meters, it'd still be like half carchar's weight give or take. So no.

[warped peak]

We do know Baharia was decently gracile for it's size though right?

[severe field]

What is and from where sarco comes? I always read its not a crocodilian but don't know anything about it and seems like an interesting thread

[last iron]

Crocodyliform

[bright veldt]

Think of it like this. Crocodilians are to crocodyliformes, what birds are to dinosaurs. Crocodilians are just a single group in a massive and diverse lineage.

[snow python]

Yep. Baha was 11-12m and 3-4t

[bright veldt]

Sarcosuchus in particular is a pholidosaur.

[severe field]

Gotcha, quite interesting

[warped peak]

There's a massive degree of genetic and niche variation in Pseudosuchia, but most look enough like crocodiles most people just call them all crocs

[fleet steeple]

Nautiloid fossils that I found in my dentist's office in marble rocks!!! Fossils in metamorphic rocks are extremely rare so I was very happy to find these so well preserved

[warped peak]

That's definitely cool

[wary junco]

it's true I can confirm as a published author on the phylogenetics and ecology of pseudosuchia, me and all my co-authors just shorten pseudosuchians to "crocs" for everyday conversations lmao

[warped peak]

It's sad that what is basically the sister clade of Dinosauria is reduced to a single thought

[wary junco]

for us at least, we only use the word "croc" because it's quicker than saying "crocodile-line archosaurs" which was the scope of our study (we looked at the whole of Pseudosuchia and not just Crocodylomorphs) and not because we're reducing them down to modern crocodylians, which would be a huge misrepresentation of their ecological and morphological diversity

[sudden wind]

Quetzalcoatlus vs Tyrannosaurus is an overrated trope

[bright veldt]

I much prefer Mark Witton's art piece rather than the actual PhP. Stick to mobbing and stop trying to treat it like an actual fight.

[clever sable]

Probably shouldn't be using the higher end estimate

[bright veldt]

I said I realized my mistake lol

[clever sable]

Oh sorry, missed that, apologies

[tawdry shadow]

@jolly coyote afaik, Hatz was found in an area that was or is an island, and became the apex predator of said island.

[jolly coyote]

Ahh interesting. Thanks!

[tawdry shadow]

Yw! Because the island was isolated from the rest of the main continent(s), the wildlife there evolved differently; similar to how Madagascar is the only island with lemurs. That is what allowed hatz to get so huge, and, since the rest of the island just had terrestrial animals, it didn't really need to fly, but it could if it wanted to.

(I know there's a lot more paleontology facts to it and technical terms, but that is the gist of it.)

[jolly coyote]

Pretty wild! This game is definitely getting me into learning more. Never cared much about anything other than T-Rex as a kid lol

[light osprey]

Mesozoic Tundras, depict them more

[copper flame]

Canada

[pulsar galleon]

Sarcosuchus could be larger (10.5m, 5.5t) iirc the weight is kind of small there because the study that estimated it used gavialid weight proportions and gavialids are slender compared to any other crocodilian really. That’s because they’re significantly more water adapted and at least in the Indian gharial they’re pretty specialized for a piscivorous, lifestyle, sarco is a generalist predator.

[pulsar galleon]

It’s really funny, gators and crocs are further from each other than chimps and humans yet get lumped together all the time

[bold zodiac]

How much does majunga weigh?

Like 1.1 tons?

[bright veldt]

yes

[tough parcel]

Using Hartman's skeletal scaled to the largest material we have for Majunga, you get 1.5 tons (1.4 if you want to be super-precise, but 1.5 is nice to my brain)

[bold zodiac]

Woah thought it was 1.1 tons

What about metri largest estimate?

[topaz shell]

How is this not really detailed majung? Is it accurate

[tough parcel]

Fairly, just missing the saddle on the nose (which would appear as a 2nd horn, as in my rendition)

[topaz shell]

Ok

[bold zodiac]

What about metri largest estimate?

[topaz shell]

Like 1.1 tons or smt (probably larger)

[bright veldt]

1.3 tons the last time I looked

[sullen cairn]

ngl i don't think majungasaurus gets called out enough for its largest specimen being a partial skull roof

[tough parcel]

Hush, you're so mean and fun-killing, fun-killer

[outer tusk]

yes no fragmetnary theropod remain will slide in this server!!!!

[sullen cairn]

fragmentary theropods are fine if you can find mildly esoteric ways to downsize them

[outer tusk]

I just searched up what esoteric means

[sullen cairn]

like yes i will totally accept that giant brazilian carch centrum but only if its ~7t because it retains more plesiomorphic anatomy

my basis for this being i don't want it to be over 12t

[tough parcel]

True! The power of choosing what is true

[sullen cairn]

i cast 7t allosauroid is more parsimonious than 15t or something like that

[lavish frigate]

Is…is unicorn majunga a myth….

My life is a lie

[bright veldt]

Where's the 1.4 ton estimate for Majunga from anyway

[bright veldt]

Majunga has a single horn on the top of its head. It's drowned out in the reconstruction by the rest of the rugose covering on the head. The horn isn't really that big.

[sullen cairn]

1.4t comes from hartman's skeletal is more pinheaded than franoys 1.1t skeletal

wait a minute why's there a 20cm spinosaur caudal in brazil too wtf

i'm really starting to question whether that paper either messed up terribly with the measurements or with neocomian brazil was just filled with kaijus for some reason

oh thank god baryonyx has a 144mm caudal

coincidentally the same exact size as the allosaurus caudal shielding us from assured 15t theropod

okay thats actually like weird though what the hell

[warped peak]

When in doubt, blame Spinosaurus

[bright veldt]

I mean I know that but how the 1.4 tons, like what method? The only GDI uses Franoys's skeletal.

[sullen cairn]

the exact size is from mostly vibes unless someone's done like an actual volumetric
although larramendi has an 8m majungasaurus at 1.3t so that seems close enough

[sullen cairn]

ngl i totally vibe with this

this could be brazil if you guys accepted obscenely conservative caudal scaling

[tough parcel]

I do

[outer tusk]

how big is the spinosaur 🙂

[sullen cairn]

like 5.5t
i would not recommend scaling it with any other spinosaur

[tough parcel]

I'm going to reject your reality and substitute my own

[sullen cairn]

actually you know what go ahead and scale it with the neotype it'd be funny

[tough parcel]

You do it, I am literally about to indulge in my abusive relationship (Playing PoT)

[outer tusk]

I loved that episode

[tough parcel]

Predaking is legitimately my beloved

[outer tusk]

Agreed

What additional line of detail could I add before color over it

[topaz shell]

Lip scales? (Idk)

[bold zodiac]

So the biggest metri estimate is 1.3 tons?

Wht about sinraptor

[silk radish]

Iguanodon has got to be my fav Herbivore

also becuz he was One of the most successful

[river plinth]

That's what I'm saying

[silk radish]

[burnt steppe]

https://youtu.be/mcAO_JulIh0?si=WLOeTRupd2xAiTWd

Very interesting video, lots about the crest and how the sinuses work and why there is a boney core at the base of the skull. Good watch for anyone who hasn't already seen this

[west drum]

I love YDAW

[burnt steppe]

Ya! I had seen a few of their videos but the dilophosaurus one was very interesting to me as it seems to be a pretty misunderstood animal

[hallow spear]

said no one

[west drum]

be kind for once

[heady thunder]

YDAW is pretty chill

[somber nebula]

I love YDAW’s videos, really wholesome and interesting

[tough parcel]

Look how's talkin about the sinuses, good to see you changed your tune

[burnt steppe]

Was never an issue the discussion was about keratin sheets which still stands lol

In multiple videos this is mentioned, Like modern animals, was a boney core covered in keratin (more than likely) as we only have the base of the 2 portions of the crest and 1 older specimen which extends up more. It's not impossible for a skin covering as some reconstructions of hadrosaurs share this but for the most part it is agreed that dilophosaurus possessed a keratin sheet over the bone structure that would extend in many different ways.

[tough parcel]

Hey, it's always fine to admit you're wrong! I do this a lot, @hallow spear can attest haha

People aren't infallible, if they were, it'd be the 2nd coming of Christ

[burnt steppe]

So is this you saying you may be wrong or I may be wrong, I am open to the idea of either representation as both have logical arguments to both sides I feel like we just got off on a bad foot yesterday

I just wanna draw and learn more about dinosaurs as it's what I love lol

[tough parcel]

Interesting way to say it, but no. It's me saying that despite a lot of people saying (X), it isn't correct

Case in point: Omnivorous ceratopsians (or herbivores in general)

[hallow spear]

hello ping

[tough parcel]

And I had elaborated pretty thoroughly, even showing you the difference in terms of structure between cassowary casques, oviraptorid skulls, and Dilo

[burnt steppe]

Curious about your view there for the ceratopsians, do you feel they were or aren't omnivorous

[hallow spear]

Arnt

Nor would ever be according to ornithischians as a whole. Theropods are different though

[tough parcel]

I know they weren't omnivorous considering an isotopic study done on Dinosaur Park herbivores showed that they were just as omnivorous as ankylosaurs (Not)

[bright veldt]

There isn’t really any evidence of omnivorous ornischians rn

[hallow spear]

There isn’t any period lol

[tough parcel]

People have significantly overblown the "herbivores eat meat" while also ignoring all context for why it happens

[burnt steppe]

I do want to point out with those though is there is a lot missing for the dilo crest, it's possible structures like that could have formed further up we just don't know as it's the base of the crest 🤷‍♂️ they also just aren't the same animals and keratin forms in all kinds of crazy ways and doesn't preserve properly most of the time, I don't think at this time there is a right or wrong answer just speculation based off various evidence

[hallow spear]

^ also the fact that even though things like deer do occasionally eat it, it doesn’t make them any less herbivorous

[burnt steppe]

And ya I don't think they were omnivorous either lol

[bright veldt]

The funny thing with pachy is that the reason it was speculated they were omnivorous was because they had troodontid-esc teeth that they thought hinted at carnivory. Skip to 2024 and it turns out said NA troodontids are generalist omnivores. Pachies don’t have troodontid-esc teeth, troodontids have pachy-esc teeth lol

[burnt steppe]

Could be like stego plates, covered in skin and pumped blood to it or the other way I'm open to both ^^

[burnt steppe]

Very interesting

[tough parcel]

As I said, the sinuses were attached to the base of the crest (Which we have) and thus we know that it wouldn't have keratin covering that area. Assuming that Dilo wasn't a weirdo that changed bone texture of the same bone, it would stand to reason to that the sinuses would extend fairly high, but not all of the crest. The very edges could just be plain scales

[burnt steppe]

Interesting point there as I saw them mentioning those sinuses extending up and how it could have been maybe used for a resonating chamber inside the keratin covering like some hadrosaurs, or skin would extend up the crest in that area but the rest could be surrounded in keratin

There's so many different ways it could work, it's pretty fascinating all the different views of how that could work, I hope in the future we find more of the crest so we can know more of this stuff for sure ;-;

[tough parcel]

The sinuses could not be covered in keratin because, as I said earlier, the sinuses need to be able to move with the animal's breathing

[burnt steppe]

I'm not saying your idea is wrong, I'm just talking about other theories rn

I do need to take off though, going fishing lol. Have a good rest of your day

[warped peak]

Does anyone have any good references for Spino's skull?

[proper panther]

Hope this helps!

[hearty cargo]

I have a 3d model of one I could probably take some pics of as well (if needed)

[warped peak]

Got a front view perhaps? No idea on how wide any of it is supposed to be

[hearty cargo]

Dunno if the skull is 100% accurate but sure

Ignore jw spino in the background I have to move him, I think this is mostly accurate but the lower jaw might be a little weird

Ignore how long it took I had to push a bunch of stuff out of the way

[warped peak]

Hm

[sullen cairn]

what if its in musth

[tough parcel]

Then woe, death be upon the local tyrannosaurs

[warped peak]

I'm working on an "anatomically accurate" Spinofaarus where I'm basically butchering the anatomy as far as possible without disobeying the skeletal

I'm giving it the very false Irritator split-jaw concept as part of this, it's only partially opened here but yeah

Between the pose and limited available references, it's hard to get the jaw working right

[open compass]

https://youtu.be/hlaXIRTjNfo?si=AE0Dx3VafZ5EZxpu

[hearty cargo]

I love it in all of its ridiculousness, wish I could help more but I'm not sure how, good luck

[sudden wind]

Hadrosaurs with reasoning chambers do not have their sinuses exposed : these are inside of tubes within the skull, similarly to some extinct bovids btw.

I would not necessarily expect Hadrosaurs to have keratin coverage on their crests either, but Dilophosaurus case is different as the sinuses are exposed outside of the bones, which is observable on Sinosaurus skull, a close relative to Dilophosaurus that's used to reconstruct it.

Even yet, I think we have enough of Dilophosaurus' skull to really tell how far the sinuses were extended.

[last iron]

Most well preserved theropod fossil:

[sudden wind]

Dilophosaurus is actually rather surprisingly very complete, even if you go by all the fragments.

But jokes on you :

[last iron]

I’d eat that

[somber nebula]

Bahariasaurus ingens and Deltadromeus agilis are my favorite Noasaurids.

Thoughts?

(Bahariasaurus by kingrexy on DeviantArt)

[solid vigil]

What is the likelyhood of Rhinorex and Gryposaurus being the same species? I'm getting the feeling that Rhino is a synonym of Grypo. But I want other opinons.

[hearty cargo]

They actually do look extremely similar, the only differences I'm seeing in the skull is the shape of the eye socket and the… bit behind it, whatever that's called. No idea though, not really a professional when it comes to dinosaurs cause I can't seem to find any trustable information I can go off of

[solid vigil]

Hence why I'm asking, not enough material and the skull shape change could be because of erosion? the right word is eluding me. But Gryphosaurus was the closest living relative of it and in a close enough time frame.

[hearty cargo]

Yeah maybe, they definitely have to at least be closely related though (if not synoynms)

[outer tusk]

looks off

[bright veldt]

We don't know what Bahariasaurus even is. Basically every reconstruction is speculative.

[compact leaf]

I wonder where Cau’s megamatrix places it

[somber nebula]

What do you mean my favorite macropredatory Noasaurine is poorly understood? Just look at the holotype material there’s so much there!

[compact leaf]

cau has put it in both elaphrosaurinae and as a megaraptor, it can move basically all over the place

[warped peak]

Elaphrosaurus with the hands of a Megaraptor

[worn isle]

BRAZIL MENTIONED 🇧🇷 it also had a tyrannosauroid, sauropods and iguanodontians, if im not crazy.
Matheus Gadelha did the paleoart representing the Marfim Fm.

[somber nebula]

That's just an ornithomimosaur.

[copper flame]

would the lips of smilodon cover its saber teeth or not

[topaz shell]

Probably

[simple cave]

Damn that paleo art is amazing

[amber thunder]

given rhinorex has been formally synonymized to my knowledge it looks to be 100% chance atm

or at least has plotted within the grypo genus so not a good sign for its generic validity

[stray wren]

Unlikely

[storm heron]

I prefer this over the other Noasaurid artwork which mostly has it be an upsize Deltadromeus with the same proportions.

[flint stream]

that my friend was gold

[worn isle]

Matheus is goated, really good artist

[simple cave]

Some real talent for sure

[flint stream]

heard of wolly pachyrhino ? i was doing bit speculation if artic edmontosaurus had fur

[stiff estuary]

Looks cool! And to my knowledge feathers / fluff were common across a lot of families of Dino's so not impossible. However I think we have some fossils of Edmontosaurus that are super well preserved that have skin and scales. (Though I guess it could vary depending on species / environment?)

[flint stream]

i just speculate if artic edmontosaurus had featherd or fluff cover

[river plinth]

I wish we still had hadrosaurs today 😭

[flint stream]

canadian geese:

[flint stream]

hope gualinco, scanova, kuintara, and tableseating seeing this. hope reputation from them is alr

[stray wren]

While a cool thought, fluffy dinosaurs outside of coelurosauria is very unlikely. These animals were likely migratory and didn't spend enough time in the cold environments for it to be necessary, and even then fatty buildup is more likely

[flint stream]

thick layer of fat. can make sense