paleontology

[woeful falcon]

That's what happens when you make everything around it bigger, but not it

[bright veldt]

^

[light osprey]

Common PoT scaling issue

[woeful falcon]

It disheartened me most when allo got upscaled

Alio I can at least play pretend a bit

[sullen cairn]

man

[white matrix]

Stego is hella short too in the game too right? Or is he actually that size irl

Cus man he is short in the game. So small and not bulky

[light osprey]

The real thing is pretty big. Idk

[bright veldt]

Thyreophorans in general are built like literal boulders. Tyrannosaurus would appear like it towers over stego when the two are basically in the same weight class.

[sullen cairn]

jarvis pull up the stego gdi

[elfin pulsar]

Isn’t stego in game way upsized

[light osprey]

Height > Weight, this is Theropod heritage

[bright veldt]

It’s not bad. It never stuck out to me size wise as having an issue.

[white matrix]

Pls do. I want to see stego vs dasp

[sullen cairn]

largest stego's like 8t

[woeful falcon]

Main problem I believe with stego are its proportions are that of a younger specimen, not an adult. Mainly because its what they had to work with at the time I believe

And honestly, that's probably for the best because stego is compact

[bright veldt]

S Q U A R E

[sullen cairn]

blobolour form

[white matrix]

I want fat, slightly taller stego pls

[light osprey]

Which ones better

[bright veldt]

Bottom

[sullen cairn]

no frontal though 😭

[white matrix]

I like bottom too

[light osprey]

The proportions are getting wild out here sheesh

[bright veldt]

Sauropods own that category tbh

[woeful falcon]

Bottom. Top is based on sophie

[bright veldt]

Only sauropods would evolve to be this size and shape and still be a functional organism

[white matrix]

He tips over he dead

One banana peel and it's game over

[light osprey]

Best of the Mesozoic

[sullen cairn]

anyways stego and rex for whoever asked

stego's upper estimate is .5m longer

i'm out of free saves okay i'm resorting to screenshots 😭

bars and rex is also fun

[white matrix]

Yo check this out

[bright veldt]

Some of the best instances of tyrannosaurus behavior I’ve seen

[light osprey]

I wonder how agile an animal that size would be

[astral kelp]

One of the PT Rex emotes is similar to this

[light osprey]

Like, would it’s movement be comparable to a modern Elephant? Or entirely distinct

[tough parcel]

Entirely distinct considering it has a completely different body plan

[light osprey]

Like in the speed, yeah definitely should’ve embedded some context or phrased it betta

[narrow moss]

Whoa. What is that video from?

[tough parcel]

Victoria the T.rex museum exhibit

[hallow spear]

Just use this so that all estimates are visible https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/391564113722998794/1140476165254025216/Stegosaurus_2.1.png

[tough parcel]

I don’t think I will

[hallow spear]

Falcone you’re a noob shur down

[sullen cairn]

Yeah but then I have to put in like marginally more effort and stuff

[hallow spear]

🔭

[sullen cairn]

You can see where this causes problems

[tough parcel]

Table’s got a point ngl

[compact leaf]

very weird very random question but maybe someone here can help me, so if I were to reconstruct a lambeosaurine crest and nasal passage what material would probably work best?

[tough parcel]

Bone and flesh

[compact leaf]

ah yes of course

I mean like building a replica, I feel like I can’t just use anything but idk what would be good to use

[tough parcel]

People have used PVC pipes

[compact leaf]

that’s what I was thinking, I can build the ‘larynx’ easily enough

getting pvc to cooperate into the right shape is the tricky part

[tough parcel]

👍 Yea, everyone who’s made hadrosaur crests have used pvc for the Hjronk

[gaunt raven]

That is so cool very amazing and realistic behavior I love to see dinosaurs “fight” in natural ways other than just to the death like monsters

[covert lintel]

oh, that rules! i love how they try to minimize physical contact, instead mostly trying to intimidate eachother by showing off their teeth and bellowing - and when that fails, briefly biting eachother before breaking off and returning to the intimidation tactics.
it's a lot more plausible than both animals immediately going for the throat, since neither one really wants to risk getting a major injury over a dispute, and would prefer to just convince their opponent that they're too strong to fight.

[light oxide]

Hey peeps -- what is the up-to-date rough weight estimate for Metriacanthosaurus? At least based on Dan Folkes's skeletal?

[sullen cairn]

~1500kg scaling with yang gdi

[storm heron]

Isn't Yangchuanosaurus proportionally differenct compared to Metricanthosaurus?

[sullen cairn]

It’s the only recent metriacanthosaurid gdi so it should be at least useable with metri

[light oxide]

Wait -- isn't Sinraptor more similar to Metriacanthosaurus than Yangchuanosaurus? I thought Sinraptor was a metriacanthosaurid?

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/yeah-yes-well-yeah-yea-gecko-gif-21532984

[woeful falcon]

Metri doesn't have the most material to go off of in terms of establishing proportions

[light oxide]

I know -- hence the "rough estimate" part and why I stated Dan Folkes's skeletal.

[sullen cairn]

Gsp sinraptor gdi would legitimately be under half a ton at metri’s length

[light osprey]

Well since Yangchuanosaurus isn’t in Metriacanthosaurinae I think there’s cause to assume they are different in their proportions

[light oxide]

Oh

[tough parcel]

Yea? It’s a weight provided by a professional, so it’s more valid than your unofficial GDIs

[woeful falcon]

Pwned

[light osprey]

Pwned

[sullen cairn]

Wait I can’t do math it’s 1.3t
This is what I get for trying to type long numbers on my phone

1350kg-1500kg is pretty small margin of difference at least

[light oxide]

Here are the skeletals Dan Folkes has for the three metriacanthosaurids:

[storm heron]

Ah, you got two Allosaurs and then an Abelisaur

[light osprey]

That is outrageous

[woeful falcon]

Big true

[sullen cairn]

Although the sinraptor gdi dorsal is fit to yangchuanosaurus proportions

Sinraptor gdi for reference

[woeful falcon]

I'd like to see someone make the case for abelisaurids being an offshoot of metriacanthosaurids based solely on the way yang looks

[sullen cairn]

Is hepingensis even confirmed metriacanthosaurinae

Wait it is

[light oxide]

I was about to say -- last I heard, Dan said it was a metriacanthosaurid. XD

[sullen cairn]

Yang gdi is also a 3d model so there’s that to take into account

[woeful falcon]

Big head

[woeful falcon]

This means it's more powerful

[sullen cairn]

Today’s moral dilemma: do you use the 5 year old gdi of a closer relative or the few month old gdi of a marginally less close relative

[tough parcel]

Both, do an average of the two

[sullen cairn]

Just as you find average weight by finding the mean of every estimate ever

[tough parcel]

👍

[sullen cairn]

Anyways average between the two’s like 1425kg or something

[light oxide]

1350 + 1500 = 2850 -> 2850 ÷ 2 = 1425.

Oop -- ye beat me to it.

[light osprey]

Real

[sullen cairn]

Now we wait for gsp to curbstomp us for even looking at his skeletals without paying royalties

[light osprey]

Imagine the wonky cladogram you’d get

[tough parcel]

Not really wonky, it’s just a straight line from Yang to Carnotaurus 👍

[woeful falcon]

The only abelisaurid

[sullen cairn]

I saw somewhere dan’s Yang holotype skeletal labeled as rugops

[woeful falcon]

Nevermind rugops which its skull is likened too

[tough parcel]

Was that…planned? Cause that was lightning

[woeful falcon]

Heh, adult rugops confirmed

[sullen cairn]

Rugops, a 30 foot long killing is on the hunt (again)

[woeful falcon]

That's what we call great minds thinking alike

[sullen cairn]

WAIT I FIGURED IT OUT

So iirc I’m pretty sure choc at one point tried saying that the “Kryptops” postcrania was a metriacanthosaurid for some reason, and Rugops and Kryptops are both middle Cretaceous basal abelisaurids from Niger known from cranial elements, meaning they’re basically the same thing, making Kryptops and by extension Rugops metriacanthosaurids

[light osprey]

Quite possibly the realest thing

[sullen cairn]

It all makes sense now

[tough parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[chilly knot]

Beagliam making skeletals^

[heady thunder]

Paleo chat

[tranquil quartz]

Paleo Chat

[pearl briar]

it's been a while since i'm making prehistoric animal size info
oh well. here's PT anyway

[shut merlin]

https://youtube.com/shorts/QR4-3g4Jr20?si=93W-nABTIKDw7i1t

[light oxide]

I got a question -- what were the weight estimates for Pachycephalosaurus and Struthiomimus?

[heady thunder]

I dont know how much the struthi estimates hold up.

Forgor to attach image lol

[light oxide]

Hmm . . .

From what I saw, from that 330 kg to 430 kg.

The latter from a laser mass estimation study for an Ostrich, Struthiomimus, Tyrannosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, and Edmontosaurus.

[heady thunder]

400 kg ostrich, based

[light oxide]

Okay -- I'm seeing 450 kg for Pachycephalosaurus. Is this correct or nah?

[heady thunder]

Probably.

[light oxide]

Hmm . . . Interesting . . .

[light osprey]

I think this might be an underestimation of their size and stature

Someone should have a skeletal for S. altus and it’s a bit taller than that

[heady thunder]

Altus can be 350-450 according to the paper, so it checks out, also that siluhete is while its running so its not max height probably

[light osprey]

Nah I found the skeletal it’s too short

[clever sable]

https://translate.google.com/website?sl=auto&tl=en&hl=da&client=webapp&u=http://theropoda.blogspot.com/2023/09/dakotaraptor-non-esiste.html Dakotaraptor stuff

[steady rock]

how much did daspletosaurus weigh?
the largest species

[astral kelp]

I know the largest is pete, but I dont remember the weight

[heady thunder]

Iirc big pete was like, near 4 tons?

[stiff osprey]

Lower estimate is 3.5t. I don't have the upper

[heady thunder]

You got a skeletal for it?

[sullen cairn]

1220MM SIR WILLIAM FEMUR

1220MM SIR WILLIAM FEMUR

[stiff osprey]

go away

[sullen cairn]

980mm sir william femur?

I prefer that option

[stiff osprey]

I haven't looked at daspletosaurus in years but every measurement i saw of sir william back them was the most mid sized tyrannosaur ever

it having a 122 cm femur would be like 116 cm femur alberto

oh I found my old scaling, sir william is an epic 2% larger than the torosus holotype

[sullen cairn]

Thank god that is so much more palatable than the thing nearly doubling in mass

[light oxide]

Stares at Camptosaurus

[fickle torrent]

idk if this is the right chat but did they ever talk about adding weather hazards???

[light oxide]

Wrong chat -- that would be for #path-of-titans

[light osprey]

Is the Evanston Formation a part of the Lancian Group?

[light osprey]

Oh wait hold on, would the Lancian Faunal Stage just be anything in Laramidia between 70-66 mya?

[stiff osprey]

I think it's 68-66

[light osprey]

That would exclude a good few southern formations

Infact I think the Lance itself extends 69mya

[little mauve]

Yes, technically North American but it doesn't really account for the Laramidia/Appalachia split faunas. It's therefore most useful as a reference to the typical Laramidian fauna. The extent of the WIS at that point is a whole other kettle of fish though too

[light osprey]

Speaking of Appalachia, do we have any other substantial vertebrate formations besides New Egypt and Hornerstown for it?

[sullen cairn]

iirc there was something in an svp abstract a few years ago
and lewisville

[little mauve]

A lot of them are pretty similar, like decent marine fossils with 1 random dinosaur every 200 years

The Demopolis Chalk in Alabama is like that, a few others in NJ like the Navesink

[sullen cairn]

merchantville has cryptotyrannus and some hadrosaur as well

and this

[light osprey]

Absolutely delicious stuff, you fellas are clutch as always

[little mauve]

Yeah Brownsteins been doing great work reevaluating this stuff

[timber dome]

@violet gorge dominado xd

tan caidos los servers pipipi

[violet gorge]

Estupida mi juega desgracia da

[ocean brook]

Any good edmontonia skeletals?

[bright veldt]

The only one ik that exists is Hartman's

[sullen cairn]

Plus gdi

[woeful falcon]

Wish I was built like that

[compact leaf]

don’t we all

[wispy summit]

Same

[slate walrus]

1k+ pings 😨

[viscid surge]

1k+ pings

[ocean brook]

Figured as this was the only one I keep on seeing and it’s from 2013

[white matrix]

https://youtu.be/c_7nXFf0WAs?feature=shared

[light osprey]

@little mauve is there a good explanation for the chronostratigraphic situation in the Bauru Group?

[sullen cairn]

no

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/dean-winchester-supernatural-facepalm-gif-27193320

[sullen cairn]

there's also presidente prudente which is sometimes considered part of adamantina

and afaik vale do rio do peixe is effectively adamantina minus presidente prudente and rio preto

and marilia got split up a few years back as well

so there's also serra da galga

brazilian statigraphy is not fun

[little mauve]

Don't have much to add, it's a mess

[sullen cairn]

thank god pycno got thrown out of there
now it's just in some needlessly obscure campanian formation nobody cares about

[light osprey]

Common Brazilian Paleontology L’s. Now I’ve got to comb through all these to find the maastrichtian taxa

[sullen cairn]

bauru maastrichtian deposits are gonna be marilia, serra da galga, while presidente prudente sits at campanian-maastrichtian, and some of adamantina's dating suggests its upper layers could have lasted until the late-ish maastrichtian but that's a very hard could have

cambambe formation isn't bauru group but that's also maastrichtian although i have no idea what's even there

[light osprey]

That’s what I was gonna go for, just gotta discern which taxa are uppermost Campanian-Maastrichtian in Adamantina

[sullen cairn]

personally i wouldn't touch adamantina with a ten foot pole but good luck

https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/185/2/312/5047416
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322920354_The_Baurusuchidae_vs_Theropoda_record_in_the_Bauru_Group_Upper_Cretaceous_Brazil_a_taphonomic_perspective
https://peerj.com/articles/5594/
https://web.archive.org/web/20171107015150/http://vertpaleo.org/Annual-Meeting/Annual-Meeting-Home/SVP-2017-program-book.aspx
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5990825/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351229355_Reassessment_of_Aeolosaurus_maximus_a_titanosaur_dinosaur_from_the_Late_Cretaceous_of_Southeastern_Brazil
i hate adamantina

[little mauve]

Aeolosaurus was used as a possible index taxon dating thr Adamantina to the campanian/maastrichtian

[light osprey]

I trust Aeolosaurus is around there. So many other stinky Titanosauria floating in Adamantina

[sullen cairn]

problem deposition could've begun as early as late coniacian

[little mauve]

This is why I like nonspecific biogeography; yeah there were some titanosaurs, abelisaurs, yadda yadda you get the picture

[sullen cairn]

it's like how tyrannotitan and patagotitan are from the the same member of cerro barcino but are separated by like ten million years and it's made even worse by adamantina having it's weird notosuchian thing going on

And afaik there isn’t any comprehensive dating of adamantina by locale which would be very nice to have because of how massive adamantina is compared to everything else in the bauru group

And adamantina interdigitates with a few other formations

[light osprey]

It was going so swell this little undertaking of mine until I stumbled upon this stupid thing

[sullen cairn]

I’m pretty sure at least some of the adamantina was campanian-maastrichtian (iirc there was a study relating to that) but then the question is what’s from the maastrichtian parts

[light osprey]

I think I’ll just use Menegazzo’s chart for now

[sullen cairn]

i will say one nice thing about the whole "adamantina is a hellspawn and i hate it" thing is it makes it easy to dismiss the whole "urc 44-r is adult pycno" thing

like that's even worse than something like "suciasaurus is adult thanatotheristes"

[light osprey]

Speaking of, I think I mananged to sort out the Maastrichtian aged fellas. Now I can move on to another continent

[sullen cairn]

what'd you end up with for maastrichtian guys

[light osprey]

Adamantinasuchus
Aphaurosuchus
Armadillosuchus
Barreirosuchus
Brasileosaurus
Caipirasuchus
Caryonosuchus
Roxochampsa
Montealtosuchus
Morrinhosuchus
Sphagesaurus
Lepisosteus
Brasiliguana
Adamantisaurus
Arrudatitan
Gondwanatitan
Maxakalisaurus
Boipeba
Brasilestes
Roxochelys
Bauruemys

Some of them are upper-Campanian but with more possible records into the Maastrichtian. Just Adamantina

[sullen cairn]

menegazzo et al by beloved

[little mauve]

The notosuchian diversity is pretty interesting

[dire sky]

Anyone know if Loons are descendants of Hesperonis?

[bright veldt]

No, albeit they are convergent in a lot of ways

[sullen cairn]

yeah hesperonis was part of a lineage distinct from modern birds that died out at the end of the cretaceous

[bright veldt]

Hesperornithids are an ancient lineage of birds that are more basal than the ones we’re familiar with

They’re quite interesting in a lot of ways. They had teeth, mostly had no beak (except for the front of the top jaw), and many of them were still capable of flight, again being pretty convergent with loons until you get farther in their evolution when they got larger and lost flight.

[light osprey]

Speaking of Hespernoris, is it those infamous eroded lower Maastrichtian deposits of the Pierre Shale which imply its Maastrichtian presence?

[sullen cairn]

Time to pull out oceans of Kansas again

[bright veldt]

I don’t know the fine details sadly

[dire sky]

Alr thx

[little mauve]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0195667116300337?via%3Dihub

[sullen cairn]

The author's noted that H. regalis was not present in the uppermost Millwood Member of the Pierre Shale (Middle Campanian). Unfortunately, rocks of that age have been eroded away in Lansas and we have no way of determining what species were present here in the final years of the late Cretaceous.

It seems ambigous in kansas, but maastrichtian hesperoronis seems to be based off a potentially early maastrichtian specimen from the canadian arctic

[light osprey]

Yep I found it too, Kanguk Formation in Ellesmere Island

Good enough for me

[sullen cairn]

maastrichtian one seems to be mason river not kanguk

[light osprey]

Oh the thing I clicked on said that’s where it was reported from so which one is it

[light osprey]

ye I reread it I’m a dummy

[sullen cairn]

kagnuk lasted quite a while so I'm assuming they had reason to be specific with a campanian assignment for the kanguk material

but i wouldn't know cause i can't find the full paper

[light osprey]

At least there’s something in the Mason River

[sullen cairn]

boy this sure is a wikipedia page of all time

[light osprey]

There are so many wiki pages like this. Really kills me when I’m looking for stratigraphic age

[sullen cairn]

early maastrichtian age for mason river seems to still be possible as of 2020

Correlation of the fauna recovered in this study with agglutinated foraminiferal (Dixon and McNeil, 2008), diatom (Tapia and Harwood, 17 2002), and silicoflagellate (McCartney, 2011a) zones indicates an early Campanian age for the Smoking Hills Formation and a middle Campanian-Maastrichtian (?) age for the Mason River Formation.

[light osprey]

Good to know I don’t need to include Smoking Hills

[sullen cairn]

let's just ignore the question mark for conveniance's sake

[light osprey]

We only deal in absolutes 💯

[sullen cairn]

why the hell is there a smoking hills formation and a smoky hill chalk in late cretaceous north america

smoky hill chalk is objectively better

[light osprey]

They’re dated roughly the same too

[sullen cairn]

that isn't helping

[white matrix]

Found another cool Rex video, they actually show it failing the hunt

[light osprey]

Ngl though with all this research feels like the Maastrichtian NA marine fossil record kind of stinks

[sullen cairn]

real

[light osprey]

Except Appalachia, but no one cares about that

[sullen cairn]

probably has something to do with the seaways rapidly receding

[white matrix]

I wanna know where these Rex animations come from, seems like some sort of dino attraction

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-shocked-gif-26271509

Could we at least get something in the Gulf of Mexico 😔

[sullen cairn]

there's probably like invertebrates and stuff there or something

jesus christ this is sad

[white matrix]

So I looked it up and it seems the Rex videos are from an exhibit for a Rex named Victoria

[light osprey]

Wikipedia coming in clutch with this once. Good to know Cardenas Formation is indeed a geologic formation that exists 💯

[sullen cairn]

I sure love my geologic formation that is checks notes mexican. And even better it gasp preserves fossils and is from the adjusts glasses cretaceous.

[light osprey]

Considering it’s assemblage of fossilised eukaryotic organisms, I’d have to say this is probably the best formation

[sullen cairn]

the cretaceous geologic formation of mexico is truly one of the formations to be deposited

[wanton acorn]

Does every bone from the skeleton of Big AL came from a single allosaurus or it came from different Allosaurus, so they just put them all together?

[sullen cairn]

big al's one single individual that's ~95% complete

[light oxide]

Oh I wonder what happened to its tail . . .

Seems like someone may have had a huge bite on it . . .

(Seriously though -- where is Big Al's tail? XD )

[sullen cairn]

in the infinitesimal split-second before its death, big al drew upon its inner diapsid to detach its tail like a lizard

[light oxide]

XD

. . . Huh -- could they, I wonder?

Cause it's a VERY big coincidence, in my opinion, that the whole tail is missing in an otherwise VERY complete skeleton.

[light osprey]

Nah probably nothing too crazy, the fossilisation process and what not will do a number in not preserving the whole skeleton

[light oxide]

True. Was just a thought.

[bright veldt]

Yeah nah that can just happen. Wyrex is a tyrannosaur notable for being fairly complete but having the tail conveniently missing. A lot of people and docs say it was an injury in life but it’s highly contested and can easily not be true afaik.

[light oxide]

Yeah -- another good example is the whole mystery that dealt with Deinocheirus's arms when we didn't find all the other skeletons. That was something.

[bright veldt]

Not true actually. The reason it was just the arms was cause that was all some fossil poachers dug up and were caught with. The reason we know what Deinocheirus looks like now is because in 2014 they actually managed to figure out where the arms came from and dig up the rest.

[light oxide]

Oh . . .

Welp -- I keep forgetting that fossil poachers exist.

[bright veldt]

Its something I keep hearing about with Mongolian fossils in particular. I guess it’s also the reason why Mongolia’s the only place I hear in relation to insanely strict fossil exporting laws.

[light oxide]

I see

[sullen cairn]

there was a massospondylus that had over 1/3rd of its tail amputated

and it survived for at least a bit after

[light oxide]

Mkay -- so tails are somewhat just hard to fossilized in general. Noted.

Anyways, Ima need your all's help in figuring out the average mass of these prehistoric animals (Note: the mass at the end of each are not final -- hence why I'm asking help in proofreading it and seeing if there's errors or not . . . And there will most likely be some):

Tyrannosaurus (6000 kg)
Spinosaurus (6000 kg)
Deinocheirus (5800 kg)
Barsboldia (5500 kg)
Stegosaurus (5500 kg)
Iguanodon (4500 kg)
Albertaceratops (3500 kg)
Amargasaurus (3300 kg)
Saurophaganax (3250 kg)
Pycnonemosaurus (3200 kg)
Suchomimus (3150 kg)
Daspletosaurus (3062 kg)
Lambeosaurus (2900 kg)
Anodontosaurus (2000 kg)
Kaiwhekea (1500 kg)
Styracosaurus (1500 kg)
Metriacanthosaurus (1425 kg)
Kentrosaurus (1150 kg)
Ceratosaurus (1100 kg)
Camptosaurus (830 kg)
Alioramus (754 kg)
Megalania (610 kg)
Concavenator (600 kg)
Struthiomimus (423 kg)
Pachycephalosaurus (410 kg)
Thalassodromeus (200 kg)
Stenonychosaurus(160 kg)
Deinonychus (67 kg)

[sullen cairn]

a good chunk of those have one specimen

[bright veldt]

I personally am not a fan of averages with extinct taxa cause of how variable the data set for each species is. Its never exactly fair.

[light oxide]

Well, what I'm mainly looking for is what animal is larger than the other, in terms of mass, really. The average version of them, anyways.

Since getting the specific numbers is . . . Well tedious to put it simply.

[sullen cairn]

even then off my head concavenator's nearly 600kg, styracosaurus is ~1500kg, if you assume dentisulcatus is the only osteologically mature specimen than ceratosaurus is 1100kg, and pycno's 3200kg (projected adult size is stupid)

[bright veldt]

Yeah I’ll just copy and paste with better values, hang on

[sullen cairn]

a couple of these have multiple species which makes an average difficult as well

and laten's invalid too

so it'd be steny's average size

[light oxide]

I know -- it's Stenonychosaurus. Let me change that real quickly.

[sullen cairn]

I think GAT's bars might be a bit larger too but I'd have to check

[bright veldt]

Tyrannosaurus (8000 kg)
Spinosaurus (7500 kg)
Deinocheirus (5800 kg)
Barsboldia (6500 kg)
Stegosaurus (5500 kg)
Iguanodon (3500 kg)
Pycnonemosaurus (4000 kg)
Albertaceratops (2000 kg)
Amargasaurus (4200 kg)
Saurophaganax (3200 kg)
Suchomimus (5300 kg)
Daspletosaurus (3062 kg)
Lambeosaurus (2900 kg)
Styracosaurus (1600 kg)
Anodontosaurus (2000 kg)
Kaiwhekea (3000 kg)
Metriacanthosaurus (1425 kg)
Kentrosaurus (1150 kg)
Ceratosaurus (980 kg)
Camptosaurus (830 kg)
Alioramus (1000 kg)
Megalania (610 kg)
Struthiomimus (423 kg)
Pachycephalosaurus (410 kg)
Concavenator (650 kg)
Thalassodromeus (40 kg)
Stenonychosaurus (85 kg)
Deinonychus (85 kg)

Some of them are specific, others might need more than explanation, some are very general.

[sullen cairn]

man i guess we're going all out with alio and pycno projected adult size

[bright veldt]

The pycno is half and half cause subadults can be very meh on how much growing they have to do. With alio you kinda have to do a speculative adult size, given the other option is a pair of juveniles thatre like 9 years old.

Thalassodromeus was extremely heavy though. Outside of the 5 giant ahzdarchids, no pterosaur was heavier than 70 kg

[light oxide]

I see

[sullen cairn]

i'd say going lower with pycno's adult size is probably better though cause a 25% mass increase seems a tad much

[bright veldt]

The thing is that I did do that. The fragmentary adult pycno bones produce a 4.9 ton animal.

[sullen cairn]

is from brazil
maybe campanian?
wouldn't really call it at all referable to pycno

[bright veldt]

Its iffy but eh

[light osprey]

Most average masses based on all representative taxa can end up skewed in the fossil record, probably only one or two of these are broadly reflective of the in life condition

[sullen cairn]

like i said earlier it's about as reasonable as considering suciasaurus an adult thanatotheristes

only those have better defined temporal bounds afaik

[bright veldt]

The only things I personally look into with size variation are when it gets extreme, like with plateosaurus and megalodon.

[light oxide]

An updated version real quick.

Tyrannosaurus (8000 kg)
Spinosaurus (7500 kg)
Deinocheirus (5800 kg)
Barsboldia (6500 kg)
Stegosaurus (5500 kg)
Iguanodon (3500 kg)
Pycnonemosaurus (3500 kg)
Albertaceratops (2000 kg)
Amargasaurus (4200 kg)
Saurophaganax (3200 kg)
Suchomimus (5300 kg)
Daspletosaurus (3062 kg)
Lambeosaurus (2900 kg)
Styracosaurus (1500 kg)
Anodontosaurus (2000 kg)
Kaiwhekea (3000 kg)
Metriacanthosaurus (1425 kg)
Kentrosaurus (1150 kg)
Ceratosaurus (980 kg)
Camptosaurus (830 kg)
Alioramus (754 kg)
Megalania (610 kg)
Struthiomimus (423 kg)
Pachycephalosaurus (410 kg)
Concavenator (600 kg)
Thalassodromeus (40 kg)
Stenonychosaurus (85 kg)
Deinonychus (85 kg)

Btw, the 754 kg size for Alioramus is on the basis that it would've reached a similar size to Qianzhousaurus.

[sullen cairn]

qianzhou would've been a bit larger with hartman's length iirc

[light osprey]

Hartmans should be the best as well

[light oxide]

I see

Would 900 kg be good, or would the 1000 kg be more preferable?

[sullen cairn]

neither's really better than the other tbh since it's all conjecture

[bright veldt]

^

I just go with 7 meters out of preference and it’s what I’ve heard as a number before

Prehistoric Planet made Qianzhou 9 meters from a 6 meter subadult

[light oxide]

True.

Hmm, maybe instead of a exact number, Ima just go ahead and just list them down from largest to smallest in terms of average mass.

[sullen cairn]

That’d probably be less confusing

[light oxide]

Yep

[bright veldt]

Lemme find the Saurophagonax gdi. The taxon’ a mess rn so just going with whatever the composite is will probably work

[light oxide]

I'll be using the latest list we have above as a basis to start off with, and go from there.

[bright veldt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/897995109495353394/911729312867155998/Untitled469_20211120132209.png

So I put in the wrong number. Way undershot it.

[clever sable]

Didn't sauro get massively upsized or something?

[bright veldt]

We don’t know jack rn about what sauro looks like or it’s true size potential, and we won’t for a while until there’s actual published stuff reevaluating sauro. So rn this is the best we got.

It’s way too wrapped up in uncertainties otherwise for my liking

[sullen cairn]

Alternatively risk pissing off 7shots and ask him for a size

[bright veldt]

Allosaurus’s “average” size is a whole other can of worms because of how gray the lines are between subadult-adult and allo-sauro

Mfw the largest confirmed allo’s a subadult but there’s plenty of mature adults smaller than it

[compact leaf]

allo is a weird little creature

[sullen cairn]

2t is probably a relatively safe bet but yeah its Pandora’s box with that

For subadults and juveniles you could prolly just have the range be actual size and projected size in the name of transparency

[light oxide]

Okay, so here's the list so far:

1. Tyrannosaurus
2. Spinosaurus
3. Barsboldia
4. Eotriceratops
5. Deinocheirus
6. Stegosaurus
7. Suchomimus
8. Saurophaganax
9. Amargasaurus
10. Iguanodon
11. Pycnonemosaurus
12. Daspletosaurus
13. Kaiwhekea
14. Lambeosaurus
15. Anodontosaurus
16. Albertaceratops
17. Styracosaurus
18. Metriacanthosaurus
19. Kentrosaurus
20. Ceratosaurus vs Alioramus
21. Ceratosaurus vs Alioramus
22. Camptosaurus
23. Megalania
24. Concavenator
25. Struthiomimus
26. Pachycephalosaurus
27. Stenonychosaurus vs Deinonychus
28. Stenonychosaurus vs Deinonychus
29. Thalassodromeus

Any placement changes needed, other than figuring out whether Alioramus or Ceratosaurus is larger, and whether Stenonychosaurus or Deinonychus is larger?

[sullen cairn]

3t flat might be a bit low for dasp when you throw in Pete iii

[bright veldt]

Stenonychosaurus is one of those with a million specimens and deinonychus had pretty variable size to. What I CAN tell you is that the largest deins beat out the largest stenos. Alio’s size is basically up to you.

If you’re doing them in size order, keep in mind eotrike is like, 5 tons.

[light oxide]

Hmm . . .

Okay, so I'll make Deinonychus higher than Stenonychosaurus, now as for Alioramus . . . I can't quite figure it out -- it depends on whether we should let the largest Ceratosaurus specimen we have be the average adult size or not.

As for Daspletosaurus, do you think it should be larger than Pycnonemosaurus?

I'll go ahead and adjust Eotriceratops -- I though it was 6 tonnes. XD

[sullen cairn]

Or 4t
Eotrike is funny cause trike weight scaling

[bright veldt]

Which is hell

[light oxide]

Noted

[bright veldt]

I lowkey fear the day trike is added in mods because of how conflicting it will be applying a mass to the thing for a project I’m doing

[light oxide]

Okay -- the updated list as of now:

1. Tyrannosaurus
2. Spinosaurus
3. Barsboldia
4. Deinocheirus
5. Stegosaurus
6. Suchomimus
7. Saurophaganax
8. Eotriceratops
9. Amargasaurus
10. Iguanodon
11. Pycnonemosaurus
12. Daspletosaurus
13. Kaiwhekea
14. Lambeosaurus
15. Anodontosaurus
16. Albertaceratops
17. Styracosaurus
18. Metriacanthosaurus
19. Kentrosaurus
20. Ceratosaurus vs Alioramus
21. Ceratosaurus vs Alioramus
22. Camptosaurus
23. Megalania
24. Concavenator
25. Struthiomimus
26. Pachycephalosaurus
27. Deinonychus
28. Stenonychosaurus
29. Thalassodromeus

[bright veldt]

I can share what I have when I get on the pc , cause when I do a PoT server I wanted to test having the ingame drag weight being irl weight values. But thatll be in a bit. Also uses maxes (mostly)

[light oxide]

Honestly, the reason why I'm trying to figure out the "order" from largest to smallest is so that, when I do plan on making my own server with realistic-ish stuff, I don't have to just use the irl weights -- I just have to be within the size order.

That and for game balance reasons.

Anyways, what's the size estimate for Pete iii of Daspletosaurus?

[light osprey]

Ranking in size?

[light oxide]

Size as in average mass and whatnot, yeah.

But without using any specific numbers to determine their ranking -- just based on whether or not they'll be larger than the ones above or not.

[light osprey]

Kaiwhekea looking very heavy, I’ve got no clue on Aristonectine mass though

[compact leaf]

I want to say they're genrally pretty hefty but that's moreso because a lot of them are just huge, and I am also not a plesiosaur guy

[light oxide]

(That and things can afford to be heavier in the ocean, since, you know . . . The ocean can support their weight much better than on land.)

[light osprey]

Generally derived sauropterygians like Elasmosauridae are pretty slim for marine animals of their proportions. But there is some notable change in Aristonectinae morphology.

[light oxide]

Okay, so I decided that Ceratosaurus was gonna be larger than Alioramus, just on the off-chance that an adult Alioramus is smaller in mass than the adult Ceratosaurus we have now.

Here it is the updated list, as of now:

1. Tyrannosaurus
2. Spinosaurus
3. Barsboldia
4. Deinocheirus
5. Stegosaurus
6. Suchomimus
7. Saurophaganax
8. Eotriceratops
9. Amargasaurus
10. Iguanodon
11. Pycnonemosaurus
12. Daspletosaurus
13. Kaiwhekea
14. Lambeosaurus
15. Anodontosaurus
16. Albertaceratops
17. Styracosaurus
18. Metriacanthosaurus
19. Kentrosaurus
20. Ceratosaurus
21. Alioramus
22. Camptosaurus
23. Megalania
24. Concavenator
25. Struthiomimus
26. Pachycephalosaurus
27. Deinonychus
28. Stenonychosaurus
29. Thalassodromeus

[bright veldt]

10 meters and 4 tonsish? It's not a described specimen yet but is pretty publicized despite being so.

[light oxide]

Interesting.

Would Dasoletosaurus, on average, be larger than Pycnonemosaurus in mass, or nah?

[light osprey]

*I know Random did a lil mock skeletal of A. quiriquinensis no ideas if he GDI tho

[bright veldt]

Eh can't really say. I'd say Daspleto purely on it being better understood and the one definite pycno specimen being less than a typical das.

[light oxide]

I see -- I'll go ahead and update it then.

[light oxide]

Very interesting.

Here's the updated list, as of now -- does this look good, everyone?

1. Tyrannosaurus
2. Spinosaurus
3. Barsboldia
4. Deinocheirus
5. Stegosaurus
6. Suchomimus
7. Saurophaganax
8. Eotriceratops
9. Amargasaurus
10. Iguanodon
11. Daspletosaurus
12. Pycnonemosaurus
13. Kaiwhekea
14. Lambeosaurus
15. Anodontosaurus
16. Albertaceratops
17. Styracosaurus
18. Metriacanthosaurus
19. Kentrosaurus
20. Ceratosaurus
21. Alioramus
22. Camptosaurus
23. Megalania
24. Concavenator
25. Struthiomimus
26. Pachycephalosaurus
27. Deinonychus
28. Stenonychosaurus
29. Thalassodromeus

[bright veldt]

Some stuff is a big iffy compared to typical measurements. Microraptor is less than a kilo but 1 is the minimum obviously lmao. I'm not a fan of 14m 15 ton deinosuchus due to fragmentary uncertainty but KTO's deinosuchus really pushes the limits.

[light oxide]

True.

[bright veldt]

I'd also switch struthi and pachy. I completely missed that struthi's too heavy on your end.

[light oxide]

From what I found, Struthiomimus was around 423 kg.

[bright veldt]

The source? I've only seen 250 kg by Franoys.

[light oxide]

There was a laser imaging and 3d computer modeling study on Struthiomimus, Tyrannosaurus, Edmontosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, and an Ostrich.

Here it is: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0004532#:~:text=Total body mass estimates of,for Tyrannosaurus rex BHI 3033.

[bright veldt]

Yknow what fair enough. Stan and Acro are consistent from what ik of their masses even if not exact.

The bad news is that PoT's smallest herb is still a significant order of magnitude larger than dein and steno.

[light oxide]

Yeah.

Though with pounce on the way . . . Things may start to brighten up for those two.

[light osprey]

Troodontid pouncing on big animals 😔

[astral kelp]

What’s wrong with that

[light osprey]

🤨

[upper seal]

[light oxide]

(I know -- but games also gotta do game stuff -- can't all be realistic, or else it will just become a simulator. But that's just my opinion.)

Anyways, what was the mass estimate for Hatzegopteryx, out of curiosity?

[astral kelp]

I was confused cause you ended it with “😔”

[light osprey]

Just that it’s not a thing really. Games will be games

[astral kelp]

So irl they wouldn’t be able to pounce on big creatures?

[light osprey]

Doesn’t seem like that’s what they would’ve been doing

Capability I think is less of an issue

[bright veldt]

Troodontids hunted prey smaller than themselves while dromaeosaurs drifted more towards macropedation.

You would likely never see a troodontid jumping onto larger prey like you would with raptors.

[clever sable]

Ah so kinda like abelisaurs (as in hunting things smaller than themselves)

[olive moat]

Between 200-250kg from what I can find (hatz ain’t too heavy)

[light oxide]

Interesting.

[bright veldt]

Eh afaik there's not much holding that up. Especially when many abelisaurs were the apex predators of their ecosystems.

[bright veldt]

Hatzegopteryx was probably around 350 kg. Quetz's GDI came out at 350 kg, and hatz certainly isn't going to be the lighter animal at least.

[light oxide]

Most of them anyways.

Stares at Rugops not being in an apex predator in its ecosystem

[light osprey]

Not even enough described tiny dinosaurs in most late maastrichtian deposits for it to be viable 😭

Titanosaurs tho 🗿

[bright veldt]

I only say 350 cause that's the last number I heard about it. I wouldn't be surprised if it's heavier than quetz given it's only slightly shorter but is porportionally a much heftier pterosaur.

[compact leaf]

in fairness swarms of baby sauropods would probably make up a good number of tiny things in ecosystems that had them

[light oxide]

Yep, and that most likely was the case in the Morrison Formation too.

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/free-food-gif-13655646

[compact leaf]

morrison does have some tiny stuff too but you probably couldn’t throw a stone without hitting a baby sauropod there

[light oxide]

[light osprey]

Another thing to note is that I think there actually a fair bit of maniraptoran material known from those deposits, they’re just undiagnostic/formally undescribed

[olive moat]

How do we even know that hatz would be larger the quetz when we have so little material of it? (Upon some further research (google) 350kg+ seems to be the general consensus for the weight of hatz )

[light osprey]

The referred material is all pretty comparatively dense. So when it’s all scaled to the humerus and skull it gets big

[sullen cairn]

Abelisaurids were apex predators in their ecosystems when there wasn’t a megaraptoran around to murder them unless you’re maybe abelisaurus or presumably pycno in which case you’re not being murdered by your local megaraptoran

[bright veldt]

It was basically half n half I wouldn't call one dominant over the other

[sullen cairn]

Off my head elemgasem, llukalkan, viavenator, and thanos suffered said “local megaraptoran curbstomping” syndrome but then you have multiple things in Brazil hitting 3t which would’ve been as large if not larger than the largest megaraptorans

The only formation I know of that didn’t have a huge disparity between abelisaurid and megaraptoran sizes was anacleto

And even then abelisaurus size estimates suck because we don’t even know what the skull properly looked like

And on the topic of abelisaurid ecology the larger taxa likely had vastly different ecologies to their smaller relatives once they started hitting if not surpassing the size of some of their local sauropods

[olive moat]

👍

[sullen cairn]

Abelisaurids are actually pretty well adapted towards sauropod hunting

[light osprey]

What would you say Megaraptorans show an inclination for

[stiff osprey]

elasmarian hunting

[light osprey]

Carnotaurus (presumably) beating them at their own game 🗿(maybe)

[sullen cairn]

megaraptorans also benefit even more than abelisaurids from being reconstructed as pretty much the same thing because they're all too fragmentary and so just form one big composite megaraptoran skeletal with each other's preserved elements

[olive moat]

Crazy that megaraptorans are so fragmentary to the point of THIS being one of the most complete megaraptorid skeletons.😭

[sullen cairn]

on the topic of sizes it's kinda funny how nemegt's hadrosaurs and sauropods were pretty much the same size (ignoring mongolian titan)

saurolophus and opistho match pretty well, same with bars and nemegtosaurus

hefty lads (+ ischotaxa)

[tight viper]

Bro I want it on Panjura SO BAD 😭

[light osprey]

You can’t ignore the inevitable 😎

[sullen cairn]

me when nemegt has larger hadrosaurs than hell creek (barsboldia has one specimen and i have no idea how large the average angustirostris was)

[bright veldt]

Saurolophus is a bit iffy, cause afaik it's large size is specifically from scaling the barsboldia material and lumping it into sauro. If you don't do that, Saurolophus is much smaller.

[sullen cairn]

giant saurolophus is if you don't scale it with a baby, bars is irrevelant

that's why fadeno's is a bobblehead

[bright veldt]

Oh, huh. So is his unreliable?

[sullen cairn]

probably

[bright veldt]

Good to know

[mystic trench]

I've just found this artwork of a new species of sub adult camptosaur found, is it real?

[stiff osprey]

Ah yes, C.godzillae

[woeful falcon]

Its a juvenile actually

[sullen cairn]

best angustirostris skeletal rn is probably this because gat's has an obscenely oversized head

imma check if the cranial osteology or anything has an average skull size or something like that

[stiff osprey]

old gsp hadrosaur posture hurts to look at

[sullen cairn]

150mm skull vs hunchback of mongolia
which is more painful

[light osprey]

Isn’t there some dispute over Opisthocoelicaudia as not being separate from Nemegtosaurus?

[sullen cairn]

I think they're currently separate there was something with a quarry a few years back too i'll check

[light osprey]

Yeah the post crania from the quarry demonstrated a lot of similarities

[sullen cairn]

The sauropod femora from Nemegt Formation differ from the femur of Opisthocoelicaudia by the medial condyle extending more distally compared with the lateral condyle. Most likely these femora and PIN 3837/P821 belong to Nemegtosaurus, which would make this taxon distinct from Opisthocoelicaudia by discussed characters of dorsal vertebrae and femur.

[light osprey]

Oh that’s right Averianov’s stuff

[sullen cairn]

geez adult saurolophus angustirostris is 7500kg+ minimum

and that's already barsboldia size

so tarbo was running around with hadrosaurus 2000kg+ larger than edmontosaurus

wait forgot to cube it, 5500kg minimum

so edmonto size

even then minimum adult size is comprable to edmontosaurus' asymptomatic size

[little mauve]

Really makes it seem like T. rex's added bulk compared to T. bataar mainly has to due with hunting ceratopsids

[sullen cairn]

really interesting all-round

and makes a lot of sense with everything else

[light osprey]

Tarchia could possibly be even similarly sized to Ankylosaurus as well

[nocturne gazelle]

How speedy were "raptors" in general? Were the average Troodontid and Dromaeosaurid faster or slower than those they shared their habitats with?

[little mauve]

Troodontids were the more cursorial of the two and for their size may have been somewhat quick. Dromaeosaurids are not built for speed

[sullen cairn]

tarbo and sympatric hadrosaurs vs rex and sympatric hadrosaur

[light osprey]

I think generally the Alvarezsaurids would’ve have been the most fleetfooted contemporaries of them both, Troodontidae coming a bit closer to them

[little mauve]

don't mind me Mr hadrosaur I'm just evolving to be at perfect neck biting height

[sullen cairn]

yep tibia+met/femur ratios pretty much follow that

and then there's shant and zhucheng which we don't talk about

[light osprey]

5 tonne Tyrannosaur with the largest Saurolophine

[sullen cairn]

although i like the idea that tyrannosaurins got progressively larger for the explicit purpose of one-upping hadrosaurs

man

[light osprey]

How big would the Tyrannosaur from Udurchukan be

[sullen cairn]

the metacarpal?

or periculosus or whatever

[light osprey]

Probably the metacarpal then

[sullen cairn]

cause this is the metacarpal

[light osprey]

real and true

Welll… what about periculosus then

[sullen cairn]

periculosus is like 3.8t or something scaling with gorgosaurus but that's assuming it's an albertosaurine when it's literally just tyrannosauridae indet
can't imagine it being much bigger than that though

[light osprey]

Makes sense the Saurolophines there aren’t as big

[little mauve]

Shantungosaurus & Zhuchengtyrannus are pretty interesting, indirect evidence of sociality in the latter perhaps? It's a stretch but whatever

[sullen cairn]

is olorotitan/amurosaurus udurchukan?

i don't think hongtuya has enough described material to make any definite statements on the ecology but something like that would be interesting

[pearl briar]

why is it so big when it's body mass are only 3.8 tons???

[sullen cairn]

air sacs

in all seriousness afaik joans made that as a joke because someone in theropoda kept asking about that metacarpal

[pearl briar]

this is how i imagine rex size when I was 10

[sullen cairn]

real

[nocturne gazelle]

Bro skipped leg day

[storm heron]

Was GAT's head really oversized? or did it belong to a large specimen?

[sullen cairn]

Largest specimen had a 1220mm skull or something along those lines, GAT’s was like 1500mm

[little mauve]

Wikipedia lists Albertosaurinae indet material in the Udurchukan Formation, no references though. Anybody know anything about this?

[sullen cairn]

Mortimer

[little mauve]

Ah good call

[sullen cairn]

Some paper placed the udurchukan tyrannosaurid material (mostly teeth iirc) into tyrannosaurin and albertosaurine morphs, and Mortimer threw all the albertosaurine-like material (and all the smaller material in general) into albertosaurus pericolosus (a tooth taxon) for convenience

[storm heron]

Ah, yea seeing it now it is rather oversized (for whatever reason).

[sullen cairn]

Mind you the author refrained from actually referring anything to albertosaurinae

[little mauve]

Gotcha, thanks!

[sullen cairn]

And Mortimer makes it pretty clear they could easily be alioramin/juvenile tyrannosaurin material

[light osprey]

Hopefully there’s more material to come it’s a neat little dilemma

[sullen cairn]

Albertosaurines crossing Beringia and persisting to the late maastrichtian would be really cool but I’d be hesitant to make any definite statements considering the ambiguity

[little mauve]

Yeah teeth are teeth

[light osprey]

It’s not too cooky, they persist a bit into the early Maastrichtian of Alberta

[sullen cairn]

Albertosaurines and tyrannosaurins were both present in early maastrichtian NA but the former disappears by the lancian

[light osprey]

Early Maastrichtian Tyrannosaurines?

[sullen cairn]

Elephant butte tyrannosaur

[light osprey]

I’m more confused

[sullen cairn]

There was a tyrannosaurin in latest-campanian—early maastrichtian New Mexico

[light osprey]

What’s the deposit called

[sullen cairn]

It was McRae formation but that was raised into a group so I think it’s hall lake now

It’s referenced as cf. tyrannosaurus in the sierraceratops description

[light osprey]

Yeah that’s what I saw. Would be pretty cool if it is Tyrannosaurus proper

[sullen cairn]

Yeah it’s pretty neat to have tyrannosaurus-esque taxa contemporary with albertosaurines

But back to earlier the implication is that albertosaurines died out in the judithian-lancian overturn along with centrosaurines and lambeosaurines

Which was probably spurred by the WIS receding

[little mauve]

That's what I found intriguing about the Amur albertosaurine material, lambeosaurines were doing just fine there

[sullen cairn]

And then it’s a question of if we have Asian lambeosaurines (and maybe albertosaurines) did they enter Asia before or during the Lancian overturn

[little mauve]

I would think before

[sullen cairn]

Yeah tsintaosaurus was there by the campanian and while olorotitan and charanosaurus are closer to NA taxa it would be reasonable to assume there were regular interchanges going on in the late Cretaceous

In which case it’s kinda suspect we don’t see any earlier possible albertosaurine material in Asia but that’s more of a sampling problem

[little mauve]

I think the interchange was very fluid back and forth, once heard holtz describe laramidia as basically just a peninsula jutting off Asia and I think that's a useful way of looking at it. Sorting out which groups started in which hemisphere is very tricky business

I could see alioramins filling that albertosaurine niche in Asia, whatever it exactly was, I think that's a fine hypothesis

[sullen cairn]

if we ever find evidence of a definitive albertosaurine population at any point in asia it'd make the udurchukan material's assignment a lot more pallatable

btw this is the largest of mortimer's periculosus material as an albertosaurine (~20th caudal scaled with gorgosaurus' 20th caudal so could easily be smaller)

[light osprey]

Ill take a stance and say it’s Alioramin

[woeful falcon]

That a headswap of random's skelly with dan's skull?

[sullen cairn]

yup
dan's skull is aesthetic

[woeful falcon]

Wish you woulda did ruth's skull bc random's is that one too 😡

[white matrix]

@stuck chasm

[woeful falcon]

The babe.

There is something pleasing about the body of random's tho with dan's skull

[sullen cairn]

the surangular makes it look like a chipmunk

yeah why didn't i use that skull

we need chipmunk russian albertosaurines

[woeful falcon]

Albertosaurines, aesthetic

[sullen cairn]

aesthetisaurines, even

[woeful falcon]

Gorgosaurus, you can have mega chin or mega entire back of the jaw, and everything in between

[sullen cairn]

the beta 960mm femur DP daspletosaurus vs the sigma chad jawline 1.093m femur gorgosaurus because i trust mortimer's femoral measurements with every fiber of my being

[bright veldt]

https://theropoda-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2023/09/dakotaraptor-non-esiste.html?_x_tr_sl=it&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc&_x_tr_sch=http

Shoutout to exactly what I've been saying for the past about Dakotaraptor not being real for a while being further backed by a paleontologist just now.

[sullen cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-dead-stop-stop-hes-already-dead-the-simpsons-gif-15735025

[keen forum]

hmm if your using the largest hardosaur estimate edmonto would also be bigger than rex

[sullen cairn]

it's average angustirostris and average annectans

[bright veldt]

idk about them being therizinosaur or oviraptorosaur remains specifically, but the whole point of this was that the "definite" dromaeosaur remains in there can easily not be

[sullen cairn]

i sure love my maniraptora indet material locked in a basement in florida

[keen forum]

ah i was wondering if you are using the largest estimate looking at the rex size

[sullen cairn]

yeah rex is average rex length 11.7m(?) from one of the rex size sheets

[light osprey]

Removing D. steini doesn’t even make the Lancian ecosystem more weird tbh. Still no proper mesopredator

[keen forum]

yeah about 11.5-11.7m its around the same size as edmon iirc

[keen forum]

stares at the giant chickens about the size if not larger than gigantoraptor running around

[sullen cairn]

i want giant anzu

[keen forum]

jokes aside im pretty sure those are just omni's but it would be funny to see them being hunters

[sullen cairn]

we have giant oviraptorosaurians in two formations in late cretaceous asia why not add hell creek to the mix

[light osprey]

Well actually, would Dakotaraptor have made the benchmark for a Hell Creek Mesopredator

[keen forum]

there are something like that in hell creek two fo them iirc

[sullen cairn]

my beloved

[keen forum]

as a mid ranking hunter? not really imo nothing juvie rexes ain't taking up

[keen forum]

is that cope or big bertha? Wait what is that?

[sullen cairn]

just searched it in koi and that popped up

huh and people are talking about giant anzu there rn too
trippy

[sullen cairn]

found it
https://theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/1344/larger-undescribed-specimen-anzu-wyliei

[keen forum]

ah the big anzu iirc there was a svp from like 2022 that talked baout even larger lads

[lavish frigate]

Here’s a gift for paleo chat. Relish in the glory

[sullen cairn]

i love fat saltasaurus cow

[lavish frigate]

If you love that you’ll love this pain!

IT. HURTS.

[sullen cairn]

least mentally deranged peters anything

[lavish frigate]

Tbh that’s probably meow go bark

Idk why it’s just completely the same until they add skin….

[sullen cairn]

no no no it's modified to fit canid model

as you can see it has been superimposed on the dog

[lavish frigate]

Point out every modification that wasn’t just putting a wolf face on a cat challenge (impossible)

[bright veldt]

I'm looking up prehistoric animal size estimates for a size chart I'm working on in relation to ARK. I am going to lose my god damn mind if Phiomia irl was the size of a whole asian elephant, if what I found is correct.

[lavish frigate]

https://tenor.com/view/real-and-true-cat-walking-gray-cat-gif-14865986020845776272

[sullen cairn]

if homotherium isn't a dog, why does the skull vaguely fit on a dog? checkmate

[sullen cairn]

ark's phiomia's probably somehow comprable to an asian elephant in mass with how big that thing's gut has to be in-game

[lofty fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/ratha-gif-26742750

[lavish frigate]

CONFIRMED???

[sullen cairn]

it all makes sense now

it's uncanny really

[lavish frigate]

I’m surprised we didn’t see the resemblance before…

They were just tusks all along….

[white matrix]

That Aeolosaurus one was deliberately ridiculous as it was on a page in a dino book where the goal was to figure out which dinos were fake

[lavish frigate]

Ah good finally an explanation

[white matrix]

Granted the actual dinosaurs were a product of their time

[bright veldt]

Yeah no. I just got it confirmed. Phiomia was this big. I'm losing my mind at 3 am.

[sullen cairn]

Ark undersizing anything feels wrong

[bright veldt]

That makes two things ARK undersizes then. The other is dilo. The rest are about right or oversized.

[sullen cairn]

At least dilo has an excuse of copying jp

[storm heron]

Two things that Ark has undersized? I sort of find that hard to believe (considering they have a huge amount of paleo animals of various sizes and only two is undersized).

[viscid surge]

I’ve seen this so often but I’ve never seen it without the “true or false” cropped out

[light oxide]

Quick question -- what is estimated to be the average mass for Sarcosuchus? Or at least the range of mass estimates for Sarcosuchus.

[narrow moss]

So sad I missed the peters slander

[light oxide]

While I'm at work, can some of you try to maybe make a ranking on the average run speeds of the animals in this list? Doesn't have to be specific numbers, just a ranking from fastest to slowest:

Ranking of Average Mass:

1. Tyrannosaurus
2. Spinosaurus
3. Barsboldia
4. Deinocheirus
5. Stegosaurus
6. Suchomimus
7. Saurophaganax
8. Eotriceratops
9. Amargasaurus
10. Sarcosuchus
11. Iguanodon
12. Daspletosaurus
13. Pycnonemosaurus
14. Kaiwhekea
15. Lambeosaurus
16. Anodontosaurus
17. Albertaceratops
18. Styracosaurus
19. Metriacanthosaurus
20. Kentrosaurus
21. Ceratosaurus
22. Alioramus
23. Camptosaurus
24. Megalania
25. Concavenator
26. Struthiomimus
27. Pachycephalosaurus
28. Deinonychus
29. Stenonychosaurus
30. Thalassodromeus

I'll check back on my break times to see what you all come up with.

[viscid surge]

Im not an expert but wouldn’t laten be at 28th spot and deinony 29? And surely in game thal would weigh more because of how huge it is?

[light oxide]

I'm basing the rankings on the IRL versions -- not the in-game versions.

Off to work I go.

[light osprey]

Anyone know what Labocania is nowadays

[frail robin]

NO NOT DAVID PETERS
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[lavish frigate]

It’s not just David it’s accompanied by fat saltosaurus and flying nodosaur! MWAHAHAHA

[frail robin]

Those I don't mind. Because fat saltasaurus is funny (and I am definitely not biased because I like chonky dinosaurs) and gliding Nodosaur is a depiction that was made like, 50 years ago? David Peters is an actual fraud and a liar that edits fossils to provide "evidence" for his crazy theories

[lavish frigate]

Apparently David has a cladogram that’s almost nothing but individual specimens of the same pterosaur in completely different places and specimens of archaeopteryx

[light osprey]

Well there’s no other dinosaurs besides birds in Lecho Formation so it must’ve eaten everything 💯

Oh and Noasaurus

[sullen cairn]

big (2500kg+) nemegt things

[stiff osprey]

They are going to beat tarbo to death

[light osprey]

Now, do the whole Nemegt Formation

[sullen cairn]

finding skeletals for nearly a dozen ostensibly indistuguishable oviraptorosaurs sounds like a gas

[light osprey]

Get to it c’mon now

[sullen cairn]

those wikipedia skeletals better be at least decent reliability

[light osprey]

Don’t question just copy and paste ☺️

[sullen cairn]

i'm going to get curbstomped by larramendi phalange scaling aren't I

[light osprey]

what did they do this time

[sullen cairn]

2.2m rinchenia frontal that's like 25% longer than the skeletal i could find
great start

[light osprey]

Doing the lord’s work don’t you forget it

[astral kelp]

next do every single mammal from middle eocene china

[sullen cairn]

let's see how much of an absolute dumpster this becomes when I try cross-examing sizes

[compact leaf]

I swear you just can’t escape it, every dinosaur family you go to larramendi has done something unspeakable to scale it

I still have nightmares about 40 ton tooth scaled rebbachisaurus

[astral kelp]

reminds me of 2000kg tooth scaled paraentelodon

[sullen cairn]

giant megaraptorans lived with tarbosaurus

[compact leaf]

you what now

[sullen cairn]

man

[blissful bison]

Is very big

[sullen cairn]

bro thinks he nanxiong

[lavish frigate]

Big ol gentleman

[rigid crypt]

how fast is Amarga at max speed cause I heard it was decently fast in irl

[bright veldt]

Likely. It wasn’t that large for a sauropod and the big ones were already surprisingly swift

I don’t think anyone has tested amarga’s speed specifically though

[rigid crypt]

I heard at max speed it was nearly as fast as an allo

[bright veldt]

Absolutely not lol

Think around elephant speed most likely

[rigid crypt]

how fast do they run?

[jagged trellis]

15-25 mph if i recall for modern elephants, 15 being more a jog and 25 being in a hurry

[bright veldt]

15 mph

25 mph is way too fast lol

[jagged trellis]

25 is very much so on the max end for such a large animal but i haven't seen it be disputed ever so: idk

[sullen cairn]

Amarga’s really slow larramendi has an estimate

[sullen dust]

What material do we have from achillobator if anyone knows?

[light osprey]

The holotype’s material

[sullen dust]

I mean like, what parts of it?

How much of its skeleton do we have would be better ig

I swear I saw a skeletal of it once

[sullen cairn]

achillobator when tyrannosaur nearly twice its size

[light osprey]

Alectrosaurus?

[sullen cairn]

some alectrosaur grade thing yeah

[sullen dust]

Ah thx

I just remembered Wikipedia existed and saw it there lol

Thought it was more fragmentary then that tbh

[warped spindle]

Dumb question but is Allosaurus part of carcharodontasauridae?

[bright veldt]

No. Allosaurus is an allosaurid. Closely related though.

[warped spindle]

Ah alrighty then

[steady rock]

does Gigantopithecus blacki line up with descriptions of bigfoot besides coloring and location?

[bright veldt]

Not really. Gigantopithecus wasn’t bipedal and Sasquatch is generally described as larger than Gigantopithecus ever was.

Nevermind a gorilla-like ape specializing in rainforests somehow appearing across mainland North America in most habitats

I’m an optimist on Sasquatch myself but it ain’t a Gigantopithecus or close relative if it is out there

[tough parcel]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1041129936880160968/1144982745135718480/image.png

[steady rock]

oh, i thought it was bigger

[tough parcel]

This is the only G. blacki scale I’ll use because everything else uses human proportions or forces it into some sort of mega-monkey

[steady rock]

also, wouldnt bigfoot be heavily overlapping with bears in niche and location?

[tough parcel]

Yessir, that’s the current understanding, but animals can overlap, nature doesn’t do “one and done”

[steady rock]

oh

would yetis just be the polar bears versions of bigfoot?

[tough parcel]

Considering the yeti (or at least one variation of it) is a bear, I guess?

[steady rock]

it is?

[tough parcel]

Yea, there’s like 2-3 types of yeti afaik? At least one of them is distinctly the Himalayan Brown Bear

[clever sable]

You use short people to make it look bigger tho......

[steady rock]

oop

[tough parcel]

That’s my ~1.8m tall girl, so it’s pretty big still 😎

[steady rock]

how tall is that, im american

[clever sable]

Average Human height

[steady rock]

6'2?

[tough parcel]

5’10-11

[steady rock]

oh

[bright veldt]

Yeti is a very misunderstood cryptid.

The idea of them living high in the Himalaya mountains and being giant and pure white howlers is based on the public perception of the “abominable snowman” from Rudolph the Rednose Reindeer

Prior to that, they were described as living in the mountain’s highland forests, being black/brown, and being quite short, maybe around 4 feet tall.

[steady rock]

oh

[compact leaf]

yeah a big part of the description was that they're only really seen when they cross the peaks between forests, and that kind of turned into they live on the peaks

[steady rock]

does the megalodon count as a cryptid?

[compact leaf]

I guess but that one is definitely extinct

[nocturne gazelle]

I'd say it does. A lot of meg depictions are very much fantasy.

Combine that with the lore of it still existing today it would have to be a completely different creature

[woeful falcon]

In the same vain as nessy it is I suppose. But megalodon was an actual extinct animal and doesn't have the same traction of any other cryptid

[compact leaf]

a lot of things can technically fall under the cryptid banner, the actual definition is basically any animal that has been spotted but not scientifically verified

[upbeat relic]

😭

[steady rock]

dakotaraptor. . . . .

[light osprey]

Tbh it wouldn’t even resemble a real Sauropterygian

[steady rock]

well, dakotaraptor the species itself, not the remains

[woeful falcon]

Any cryptid status megalodon has is just bc "we don't know a lot about the ocean"

[compact leaf]

well that and the supposed sightings but those just aren't reliable in this case

[steady rock]

all meg sightings are just bigger great white sharks

or whale sharks, for somereason

[compact leaf]

or people lying

[light osprey]

Trust me bro, I saw it

[steady rock]

oh i have a good question, would leedsichthys do this?

also how did the first whale miss almost all the damn fish

[bright veldt]

Leedsichthys kinda did a mix of filter feeding strategies afaik

[steady rock]

so. . . yes?

[bright veldt]

Idk if it straight up ate fish or was mostly just plankton. It’d have a lot to do with its behavior.

[steady rock]

now that i think of it, a prehestoric bait ball and the feeding frenzy after would be epic to watch

wait, leed wasnt in oxford?

no it was, this size chart i found just dosent have it

but like, imagine a feeding frenzy with the oxford creatures

[compact leaf]

what formation is this meant to be from? it says kayenta but that's in north america and much earlier

[steady rock]

i looked up oxford formation size chart and this is what i got

[compact leaf]

ok that makes much more sense, I figured it was oxford clay but the animals aren't labeled

[sudden wind]

No

Leedsichthys is more of a suspension feeder iirc : so it took on small organisms and particles in the water and not macrosized preys. It would have used ram feeding : so it would move forward as it gaps in order to filter feed the water as it couldn't actively pump it. Think of paddlefishes, basking sharks, whale sharks, manta rays, menhaden or striped mackerel.

Note that some of these fish still do feed on small sized fish : that's the case of mantas and whale sharks. But a strategy similar to rorqual lunge feeding? Probably not.

There may also be evidences of substrat feeding in Pachycormids, based on some feeding tracks in locations where filter feeding ones are found.

Rorquals just broke the game with their swift body plan, goular pouch and massive sizes.

[viscid surge]

I recognise most of those but what about 1 and 4 idk what those fish are

[stiff osprey]

4 is striped mackerel, I guess 1 is menhaden

[compact leaf]

yeah 1 is menhaden

[bright veldt]

The reason I say a mix is that there’s some evidence of benthic feeding as well afaik, even if suspension feeding was the norm

[sullen cairn]

@light oxide there's your sauro size, prolly isn't getting much better than that for now

[light oxide]

Interesting.

Right now, I wanna do a ranking based on run speed, from fastest to slowest.

I'll go ahead and update the mass ranking though.

[bright veldt]

That’s going to be a lot more vague I’ll be honest

[light oxide]

Wait, would that mean that Saurophaganax is larger than Suchomimus?

[bright veldt]

Guess so?

[light oxide]

Huh . . . That's unexpected.

[bright veldt]

I still say the composite is currently more reliable but that’s just me.

[light oxide]

Well, I'm trying to avoid specific numbers as the main factor if I can, in terms of ranking them.

That said, Sturthiomimus would probably be the fastest. As for the slowest . . . I don't really got a clue.

[sullen cairn]

amarga maybe?

[light oxide]

Or Anodontosaurus.

[sullen cairn]

yeah maybe that

[bright veldt]

Anodonto yeah, with stegosaurs not far behind

[light oxide]

Hmm . . . Which one would be faster -- Stegosaurus, or Kentrosaurus?

[bright veldt]

Probably the smaller one

[light oxide]

Okay, so Anodontosaurus is the slowest, then Stegosaurus, then Kentrosaurus, and then Amargasaurus. That good so far?

[sullen cairn]

was kentro graviportal or mediportal

i'd assume mediportal cause it isn't that big

[agile loom]

https://tenor.com/view/palomitas-eating-popcorn-popcorn-eat-chill-gif-17592961

[light oxide]

From what I just found, graviportal.

[sullen cairn]

Poor kentro

[little mauve]

Probably why it was a pincushion

[light oxide]

What would that mean?

[sullen cairn]

Worse at running

[astral kelp]

Does anyone know where dinocrocuta is placed, I'm aware its a hyena like feliform, and not a true hyena

[heady thunder]

Hyena enough

[astral kelp]

taxonomically ofc

[bright veldt]

It’s a pachycrocutid. It’s a sister family to hyenas. I think pachycrocuta is the only other member of the family.

Percrocutid* I mean. And the other member is Percrocuta.

Pachycrocuta is a proper hyena

Sorry if that came out confusing

[astral kelp]

Ah I remember something regarding this family, didn't Belbus and Allohyaena get removed from percrocutidae?

[bright veldt]

Never even heard of those before

[sullen cairn]

Who tf names a hyena belbus

[bright veldt]

Lemme look I’m up

[heady thunder]

Better question, who names a prehistoric hyena, not smth like, old hyena

[sullen cairn]

Belbus vs yoshi, battle of carnivorans

[astral kelp]

"Belbus Werdelin, Solounias, 1991"

[bright veldt]

Both of them are extremely obscure. Like, they don’t even have a Wikipedia page. The very limited sources I can find on them place them both as hyaenids.

[astral kelp]

https://academic.oup.com/zoolinnean/article/126/3/319/2684301?login=false its been cited here, about them not being in percrocutidae in this paper it seems

[bright veldt]

Yeah that was one of the ones I found

[sullen cairn]

So that’s why nobody cares about it

[bright veldt]

Yea lmao

Although it’s probably fine as a tax cause it’s a mammal.

[sullen cairn]

@light osprey this is your fault

why are there so many

[compact leaf]

you should do the morrison next and the legion of sauropods

that is a legitimately concerning amount of oviraptorosaurs though

[light osprey]

Beautiful and stunning.

Anserimimus looks pretty damn big

[sullen cairn]

yeah a bit over 4m

[light osprey]

Don’t forget about the Avialans

[sullen cairn]

thank god larrmanedi exists

[light osprey]

He’s scaled all that material? damn

[sullen cairn]

man's a saint

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/superman-gif-23544200

[compact leaf]

larramendi has had a go at most of the sauropods at this point too so I have to be grateful

[sullen cairn]

without larramendi we would never have our valued 660g cf. cimolopteryx maxima

and other such renowned specimens

[light oxide]

How fast do you all think Megalania is?

Or Varanus priscus? XD

[pearl briar]

idk
maybe faster/slower than komodo dragon

[elfin pulsar]

That’s not very helpful haha

[compact leaf]

probably a bit slower than a komodo dragon just given the size

[steady rock]

shout out to that one tiny seal

[nocturne gazelle]

Adorable

[astral kelp]

That’s the speculative adult size I think

[fossil ingot]

Probably

[bright veldt]

It is yeah. Here's the most recent gdi

[west coral]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-more-gif-21856591

[ocean brook]

This is a good ichtyovenator skeletal?

[bright veldt]

Ye

[ocean brook]

Poggers

[storm heron]

The Mongol Horde

[nocturne gazelle]

Which dino is the big one?

[sullen cairn]

galllimimus

[nocturne gazelle]

Figured, and the smaller one? Struthi?

[sullen cairn]

anserimimus

[nocturne gazelle]

Interesting

[lavish frigate]

Someone in another paleo chat posted this and OH MY FRICK it’s so beautiful

Freakin HD

[vocal breach]

Oh my god

[lavish frigate]

It’s beautiful is it not?

[ruby meadow]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cc6cc370727d28d569965fa7c651625f/5fb04c96954df200-a1/s1280x1920/80c102b94fba51fe8646de1981104e9602edb8be.png

https://allthatsinteresting.com/llukalkan-aliocranianus

[white matrix]

How are bones so well preserved? Heard bones dont last in the soil for so many thousands of years and when the fossilize and degrade over time they leave a cast that we then find? I find that so confusing

[ruby meadow]

Buried bone and shell contain tiny air spaces into which water can seep, depositing minerals. Reinforced by these mineral deposits, bone and shell can survive for millions of years. Even if the bone or shell dissolves, the mineral deposits in the shape of the body structure remain.

[white matrix]

OHH well thats very cool

[lavish frigate]

I love how the whole premise of fossils is that they aren’t actually anything biological and yet we somehow have random Rex soft tissue from that one Jack Horner affiliated woman

[white matrix]

Yea thats very cool and it honestly baffles me that some preeps say fossils arent real :/

[lavish frigate]

They no smart

[pearl briar]

"cousin of t. rex" ABELISAURS IS NOT EVEN RELATED TO T REX

[keen forum]

i would say eo would be smaller than stego and chirus at the largest also i seen your updated list but here's some more info so far for it

bars is like 7tons ( at largest )
chirus would be around 8
spino on average would be alot smaller about 7.8 at the largest ( for now )
Eo would be about 4-5tons
Stego at the largest is over 8 with the sub adults be around 6tons

[woeful falcon]

that's a good reply

[keen forum]

i feel this picture XD

[ruby meadow]

not disagreeing, just sharing a neat dino few people have probably heard of

[woeful falcon]

true. I take every opportunity I can to bring up llukalkan every time conversation about Pycnonemosaurus's head happens

[keen forum]

my son, Pycno will one day not be a carno reskin

[woeful falcon]

alas, its release in PoT was not that day

[keen forum]

that came out a long with the spec adult since its a subadult so either would be good to use

[keen forum]

still sad about that, i was expecting the big bad ogre looking face

[light osprey]

Does anyone know what maastrichtian formations Archaeomanta would’ve hailed from

[woeful falcon]

I think I was fearing big carno from the get-go just based on PoT's track record. And big carno is cool and all, but it would have been nice to have something different

[keen forum]

hmm no idea

[sullen cairn]

Granted the big sad ogre face is literally just hornless carno

Like random’s skeletals skull is just a hornless carno because that that was the only well-described late Cretaceous brachyrostran skull at the time

[storm heron]

I mean, you can easily create a hypothetical Pycnonemosaurus head without making it a hornless Carnotaurus.

[sullen cairn]

ie llukalkan

Although I do find it funny when people use random’s pycno as a base for urc 44-r when it’s explicitly discluded from having a skull like that

[storm heron]

Yea,

[woeful falcon]

I'm always humored by the take of "well we don't know exactly how it looked like so it could have been like carno" when carno is the only abelisaurid that looks like carno, even among its closest relatives

[sullen cairn]

A general problem with abelisaurids is that they always get compared with carno, despite it being very well-established that carno is extremely derived even among brachyrostra

[nocturne gazelle]

I maintain the standpoint that PoT pycno should have been:
Attack- Majunga (horn pokey poke for damage)
Balanced- Pycno with no horns (standard)
Stamina- Carno (It's the speedy boi typically so stam makes sense)

[woeful falcon]

I don't subscribe to that take primarily because of majunga. different subfamily so off limits in my mind

[bright veldt]

It can just be heavier set with a unicorn horn

[sullen cairn]

Brachyrostrans are really boring in the cranial ornamentation department bar carno

[storm heron]

You can speculate an Abelisaurid with a single horn on its head, even considering the variation in many other Brachyrostrans

[sullen cairn]

Oh yeah it’s fine but I just realized carno’s kinda an outlier

[woeful falcon]

yeah all zero of them with singular horns on their head

[sullen cairn]

We do only have like five skulls tbf

[nocturne gazelle]

It would still be better than 2 carno clones

[light osprey]

This Llukalkan’s skull?

[sullen cairn]

Yup

[keen forum]

some of them were made around abelisaurus who has a really nice looking skull as well but yeah newew pycno would have a longer more square head

[woeful falcon]

not sure how that discredits it

five skulls, only one of them has horns at all

[light osprey]

Oh this skull shape looks a bit more appropriate

[sullen cairn]

Just meant low sample size but I agree no horns is a lot safer

[keen forum]

given where pycno falls it would more than likely not have any horns at all

[woeful falcon]

for the record, I wouldn't have even minded horns so long as it wasn't a carbon copy of carno

[storm heron]

If we wanna be more specific, two of those skulls out of five display a pointy ridge above the eyes or a circular bulge.

[sullen cairn]

My biggest problem with carbon copying carno horns is that it implies pycno, a more basal campanian taxon, would share an autapamorphy with the markedly more derived maastrichtian carno

Which is like bleh

[storm heron]

I think it was just easier for them to base it directly off of Carnotaurus (Or they wanted Carnotaurus from the start)

[sullen cairn]

prolly something along those lines

[nocturne gazelle]

Probably a mix of both

[woeful falcon]

I quite like llukalkan's skull, and its description predates the publishing of the carno skin paper, which we know the Pycno model had to have been made or worked on after that paper was published

[light osprey]

Do we know where the Kenyan material sits?

[keen forum]

i think they just wanted carno but went with pycno because it was bigger and the name was distinct from carno

[sullen cairn]

abelisauridae indet

[keen forum]

some where in a lab collecting dust as we wait another 8+ years for the paper to come out

[storm heron]

Well it being bigger sort of means nothing in a game where you can upsize or downsize things with a snap of the finger

[light osprey]

Cladistically*

[woeful falcon]

I think its a mix of wanting something like carno from the start and not knowing pycno's phylogeny, especially in relation to Llukalkan which was described that year as well. So they probably weren't exactly snooping around looking for an updated cladogram

[sullen cairn]

hopefully titanovenator gets a phylogeny because the only other late cretaceous african abelisaur that's been placed in a matrix is chenanisaurus, and somehow i think a partial dentary may be a tad lacking in characters

it's also like actually reasonably complete unlike everything else on the continent

[light osprey]

Will Titanovenator prevail as the genus?

[keen forum]

from the skull that it had possibly close to majunga

[storm heron]

Speaking of Chenanisaurus, its dentary is rather deep, which is interesting to me

[sullen cairn]

i think the skull's actually reconstructed a good bit after abelisaurus

[keen forum]

no thats just a nick name from fans online Titanovenator is not gonna be its real name

[woeful falcon]

my thoughts are majunga as well, based on how the skull looks and how much it resembles franoys's majunga, and fran is the one who made the skeletal for it

[light osprey]

Let’s hope the description doesn’t give it a mid name

[storm heron]

I am curious of how much material was discovered of the skull

[keen forum]

yeah man has them thick jaws

[woeful falcon]

lemme find the pic if someone isn't quicker

[sullen cairn]

I still think that Rugops skeletal has a proportionally huge dentary compared to the rest of the mandible

[storm heron]

Yea, seemingly even more so compared to other Abelisaurids

[woeful falcon]

This much, assuming there isn't more material beyond this. But that's what we have to run with since we don't have a description

[sullen cairn]

Femur and tibia’s pretty good

[light osprey]

Let’s hope the rest of the material in Lapurr can get properly described, or heck if we’re really lucky named

[woeful falcon]

as far as topical undescribed specimens go, the kenyan giant is one talked about very frequently but not a lot shown off of it all things considered

[storm heron]

Well, it is undescribed so not much will be revealed of it for a while

[sullen cairn]

tbf though a lot of the skull seems more based on abelisaurus and fran literally said he had to update abelisaurus' skull for his titanovenator skeletal

[storm heron]

Hang on, Fran said that?

[light osprey]

So not a Majungasaurine?

[keen forum]

given that the abelisaurus skull holds some material that use carchs as it would have to be remade quite a bit

[woeful falcon]

we don't know what it is, just speculating

[sullen cairn]

ft. you
also seems we were robbed of an updated abelisaurus skull

[woeful falcon]

lmao

that feel when you were in the conversation in question

[storm heron]

Well this is funny pfft

[keen forum]

fran has been gone for such a long time man popp'ed up from the grave made a updated giga updated sucho skull and carch then died again

[sullen cairn]

lizard rn

[storm heron]

Yes,

[light osprey]

Btw is it really Dryosaurid material in Lapurr? And not something more reasonable like a Rhabdodontid

[storm heron]

I remember talking to Fran about Abelisaurus' skull but do not remember them stating they had to remake it when making the Kenyan Abelisaur

[sullen cairn]

the little ornithopod guy?

yeah that surprised me when saw it

[light osprey]

Well there’s two I think, the other one I haven’t got the slightest clue what it’s being reconstructed as

[sullen cairn]

lancian's chart just says ornithopoda indet

[storm heron]

So I take it that the Kenyan Abelisaurid's skull is similar to Abelisaurus,

[light osprey]

Upon further inspection I think that ornithopod is being reconstructed as a Rhabdodontid

[sullen cairn]

Figures

And yeah the two seem pretty similar besides the actual orientation/rotation of the material (like the parietal moving way up)

[light osprey]

I wonder… new African Titanosaur clade?

[storm heron]

Reminds of Llukalkan.

[sullen cairn]

Do we really need more titanosaur clades

[light osprey]

Did we really need an 11 metre Abelisaur

[sullen cairn]

Yes

[light osprey]

Hm yeah maybe that’s reasonable

[storm heron]

Who doesn't want Disney's Carnotaurus to exist

[sullen cairn]

I just wanna know where the maastrichtian African guys fall

[nocturne gazelle]

Apex pycno when

[sullen cairn]

pycno uses projected adult size
dies

[light osprey]

If it’s maastrichtian it’s worthy of all our love and attention

[sullen cairn]

Watch this thing end up clading as a brachyrostran like the bahariya abelidaur

[light osprey]

Would Chenanisaurus end up there too?

[storm heron]

This isn't reffering to the big Morrocan vetrebrae, is it

[sullen cairn]

Nah this is a cervical

Chenanisaurus ends up as very basal but I think Andre has it as somewhere more derived(?)

[light osprey]

Cau?

[storm heron]

Pycnonemosaurus and Viavenator being more basal than Majungasaurines

[sullen cairn]

That phylogeny certainly brings up more questions than answers

[woeful falcon]

That it does

[storm heron]

If there is one thing that seeming remains stable in these Abelisaurid phyogenies

Its the Skorpiovenator + Ekrixinatosaurus duo (or trio if you include Ilokelsia).

[sullen cairn]

I love that little unnamed Rio limay clade

[light osprey]

Viavenator and Pycnonemosaurus together sounds fine and dandy

[sullen cairn]

Honestly pycno being a giant archaic basal abelisaur does sound pretty cool but it’s not like it’s placement is at all resolved or anything

Also elaphrosaurinae outside of noasauridae is neat

[light osprey]

More basal than Ceratosaurus itself lol

[sullen cairn]

Yeah elaphrosaurinae has flown around a lotta places in its time

[sullen cairn]

seems like nemegt had an ankylosaur ~anky holotype size and another ~zuul size

[sullen cairn]

now to wait for someone to point out i oversized/missed something

[heady thunder]

Whats the azdarchids name?

[sullen cairn]

Unnamed it’s just a cervical iirc

[heady thunder]

Pog.

I though duck was bigger then tarbo by a decent margain

[sullen cairn]

It’s ~3000kg heavier at the largest

[heady thunder]

They look the same size wise

[sullen cairn]

hartman's skeletal (the one in the chart) appears shorter because its legs are mid-stride

the one above is in neutral so the legs are straight and it looks taller

this is with duck in neutral

[nocturne gazelle]

Toss in a human model for funzies

[light osprey]

This is absolutely delicious

[sullen cairn]

randoms lady added for aesthetic

and unhid raptorex because it was behind the other tyrannosaurids

[nocturne gazelle]

I was literally just about to mention it before you posted the fix

Nice job

[light osprey]

You should do more, the dopamine hit I get from seeing these is just too good. Okay it’s not that euphoric but I like it

[nocturne gazelle]

Ornithomimids would be great

[light osprey]

Wym, there right there

[nocturne gazelle]

I mean a chart of only ornithomimids, but include the whole family.

[light osprey]

Gross 🤢
only formations

[sullen cairn]

half of the ornithomimids would probably just be larramendi's silhouettes

[nocturne gazelle]

Lol fair

[sullen cairn]

although i'm kinda surprised by nemegt having two ~3.5t ankylosaur specimens

[nocturne gazelle]

Ornithomimosaurs perhaps then

[light osprey]

Are they attributable to anything?

[sullen cairn]

one's indet and the other's "dyoplosaurus" giganteus

[light osprey]

Sounds like it’s probably a relative of zuul

[sullen cairn]

indet being a tail marginally larger than zuul's and giganteus being a caudal centrum slightly thinner than those of anky's holotype (which i went with for the estimate) but taller

[light osprey]

I know the Barun Goyot material is big, and I think thats usually attribute to Tarchia. Idk what to make of these guys though

[sullen cairn]

and i just skull scaled tarchia teresae because i couldn't find any figured postcrania

[light osprey]

Curious, what are making these on

[sullen cairn]

pixlr

[heady thunder]

Yeah, tarbo do be mid ngl

[simple canyon]

Do you guys want to know something about the largest species of allosaur

[sullen cairn]

people talk about rex having it hard with its herbivores but tarbo was the *real * tyrannosaurid getting curbstomped by assorted giant herbivores

[sullen cairn]

prolly amplexus assuming it stays in allosaurus

if not than fragilis/whatever amnh 680 is

[simple canyon]

It's not a genus of Allosaurus

[heady thunder]

I never saw the " rex had it hard" problem, like sure its prey was huge and insane, but so was rex.

[sullen cairn]

real

[light osprey]

The spiritual Morrison successor

[simple canyon]

This is SauroPhaganax, a relative of Allosaurus that measured 3.3 meters tall, 12.8 meters long and weighed 4.2 tons (10 foot 9 inches tall, 41 foot 11 inches long)

It lived in the late Jurassic along side allosaurus and ceratosaurus in north America

[heady thunder]

I love how it looks exactly like allo

[simple canyon]

It ate sauropods, stegosaurs and small dryosaur like herbivores like camptosaurus

[sullen cairn]

why did i read allosaur as allosaurus

[simple canyon]

@heady thunder I couldn't find a good picture

[heady thunder]

All the pictures still look like allo, cos, it basically looks like one

[simple canyon]

@heady thunder people do debate on if it's a different dinosaur, a different species of allo (A. Maximus) or if it's just a large allosaurus

[sullen cairn]

i have a hunch if i say it looked like allo 7shots is gonna beat me to death

[light osprey]

Smooth skinned Dinosaurs, just how I like em

[heady thunder]

It does look like allo, like, having eyes tells you that

[simple canyon]

I just noticed the picture I got of it shows it having eye shadow

[nocturne gazelle]

All I'm saying is if we got a super-sized campto maybe we got a super sized allo

[heady thunder]

Real

[sullen cairn]

sauro's pretty much a giant allo built like a brick already

[simple canyon]

@sullen cairn it really is though 🤣🤣

[sullen cairn]

i've heard "billboard" and "brick house" in reference to its build too many times to say no

[simple canyon]

What would win, a SauroPhaganax or AMNH 680

[sullen cairn]

sauro's like way bigger

like potentially multiple tons larger

[simple canyon]

@sullen cairn sauro isn't that much longer than it but is heavier, AMNH 680 is 3.1 tons and sauro is 4.2

[light osprey]

AMNH 680 is only 3 tonnes? Pfff big deal 🥱

[sullen cairn]

sauro was prolly 5.5-6t, larger specimens potentially even larger

[storm heron]

A large ankylosaurid in Nemegt, interesting.

[light osprey]

It ain’t that interesting 🤨 there’s always been big ankylosaurs in the Nemegt Basin

[sullen cairn]

anyways things wouldn't go well for 680

also good sauro picture

[heady thunder]

They would mate

[white matrix]

If they were in the same genus/family, sure

[light osprey]

Maastrichtian Europe is more well understood than I would’ve thought

Had no idea there was a whole Eurasian family of Lambeosaurines

[sullen cairn]

And the little guy that hopped to Africa that I can never spell

[light osprey]

Ajnabia. Skill issue Fr

[sullen cairn]

😠

[keen forum]

oh i have to add this pin 551 -1 the tarbo there may not be fully grown

[astral kelp]

When will someone make a chart of middle Eocene China 😔

[candid ledge]

@kindred hawk Please keep all discussions in here on the Paleo topic only, we recommend all off-topic conversations be directed to DM's or another server entirely. Refer to our #rules

[lavish frigate]

I Wonder how distantly related dinosaurs would have to be to crossbreed? Creatures today can crossbreed up to like the family level or whatever so it’d be interesting

I Wonder if we could tell through fossils if something was a natural crossbreed. Like grolar bears (grizzly polar)