paleontology

[tough parcel]

Just looking at a skeletal of both should tell you enough differences

[late atlas]

🙁
So beyond the minutiae not much

[light osprey]

I mean between Triceratops and Stryacosaurus there should be some pretty apparent major differences.

[stiff osprey]

as far as I can tell Trike also has a wider body from the top, and there's Styraco's classic giant frill horns, which in Trike are almost nonexistant

that's about it

[late atlas]

Look pretty similar on the surface to me 🤷‍♂️

[bright veldt]

The vast majority of ceratopsids only have major differences in the head and that's it

[tough parcel]

These animals are clearly synonymous

[stiff osprey]

yeah, they're all kinda headswaps of eachother. Not because the animals all looked the same but because 80% of the time all you find is the head

so it is hard to study the rest of them

[tranquil quartz]

Koreaceratops ontop

[late atlas]

We have it in large and we have it in Venti 😎

[tough parcel]

True!

[light osprey]

Not sure how good Hartman’s is, but it’s enough to get a feel for it’s anatomy

[late atlas]

Beyond its head, looks like a difference in ribs (styra has more looks like and shaped diff) and its.....what's that bone is under the tail

[light osprey]

The ischium?

[late atlas]

We'll say yes since idk what that is

But probably

[heady thunder]

That sty looks funky.

[tough parcel]

Ur mom looks funky (It is literally Sergi's skeletal)

[heady thunder]

That is also funky, sty is funky, deal with it.

[compact leaf]

the frill on sty can also be really asymmetrical which is a lot of fun to deal with

[heady thunder]

Megafunky.

[compact leaf]

you find half a skull, is it a new genus or is it just sty being a nuisance again

[light osprey]

What did you use for Triceratops

[nocturne gazelle]

Would be interesting to see further frill customization in game.

[tough parcel]

Dempsey’s old muscle recon, might redo it someday

[light osprey]

Ok cool, so better than Hartman’s I presume

[hallow spear]

no dempseys old musculature is bad and the scaling likely follows

[deft sigil]

@hallow spear@tough parcel Please remain polite and respectful towards each other and do not provoke or antagonize other users. Refer to our #rules

[hallow spear]

But we are dating, i love him

[tough parcel]

True, very real

The antagonistic behavior is simply love blossoming

[hallow spear]

^ Its simply flirting

[tranquil quartz]

What would theoretically happen it i bit into an ankylosaur?
asking for a friend

[astral kelp]

Mammals are cool

[hallow spear]

Ever bit your finger?

like that except it wouldn't hurt the anky and your teeth would break!

[tranquil quartz]

sounds like a pleasurable experience 👍
will recommend this to him

[astral kelp]

Especially entelodonts

Entelodonts > Mammals > Dinosaurs

Stego are you a swifty

[tranquil quartz]

how has Koala not sniped us yet
nvm 💀

[tough parcel]

Lmao, as you say that

[deft sigil]

Please avoid less serious topics in this channel. Make sure you read the pinned messages in all channels you plan to use. This channel is for educational purposes.

[light osprey]

Oh, Oopsie

W Hartman then, cause his aesthetics go hard

[hallow spear]

Dempsey has a new one and that’s good

[light osprey]

I think I found it

[iron halo]

Raj is right iirc (referring to the message below)

[tranquil quartz]

@late atlas Megarachne is in the same family as sea scorpions, it was originally thought to be a spider but it later became a eurypterid.

[late atlas]

Ye but it has that title, because it was thought to be a giant spider at one point

Megarachne also supposedly lived in freshwater unlike its kin

[tranquil quartz]

Yeah, its dwarfed by all its relative’s pretty much as well

[late atlas]

Scorpions to boot btw are a relative of the spider under the Arachnida title

It is technically not far fetched to say the Megarachne might be a spider before it changed to become what we know as a spider 🤷‍♂️

But it still holds that "title", the Largest Spider to have ever live"

[tranquil quartz]

Not anymore, it was until it wasn’t

[late atlas]

Honorary spooder 😌

[light oxide]

. . . Just . . . HOW?!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373708840_Dinosaur_eggs_with_fossilized_embryos_on_the_Moon

[light osprey]

Click on the link, then click on Saxena’s about page

[light oxide]

Okay

Oh . . .

So it's a hoax then, huh?

[light osprey]

Idk, but they are funny

[light oxide]

Okay, it's most likely a hoax.

Was about to say -- how in the world did two dinosaur eggs get on the moon.

Oh well. For thee best.

[quaint isle]

There's a pachy with a beak in the works?
If so send pics

[light oxide]

Wrong channel, mate -- that would be a question for #modding

[light osprey]

Certainly fake, I just don’t know if it’s intentional parody

[light oxide]

Parody of what, exactly?

[light osprey]

Hoaxes

🧠

[stiff osprey]

It's not a parody, just a predatory journal. A particularly funny one tho

[covert lintel]

the authors seem to have a good few papers like this, i don't know what brand of conspiracy theorists they are (optimistically, maybe they're doing this on purpose) but this claim is 100% not actually true, just some neat rock formations

[sullen cairn]

step 1: pay journal hundreds of dollars to publish an article
step 2: wait for them to check it
step 3: they don't care enough to put it through peer review because you already payed them an exorbitant sum of money
step 4: (lose) profit

[covert lintel]

i don't know if this should be illegal but i do think it shouldn't be Allowed

[steady rock]

how fast could diplodocus run?

[chilly knot]

Absolute chads

All hail Lunasaurussaxenaii and Chandrasauruspolaris

[sullen cairn]

Larramendi has it at ~24km/h

[clever sable]

Does anyone know the projected adult size of yoshis trike

[pearl briar]

that's too fast for a sauropod like him

[sullen cairn]

only other estimate i've seen recently is something like 17km/h

[solid salmon]

Mummified edmonto😍

[late atlas]

Proof the dinosaurs didn't originate here but elsewhere and when the meteor struck it brought em with it.

[sage cave]

Anyone have nice gallimimus skeletal?

[pearl briar]

this is what i can found rn

[light oxide]

[tough parcel]

Me taking a bite out of the mummified Edmonto's leg (It is not mummified, there is no soft tissue, it's all rock)

[light oxide]

Teeth go bye bye. XD

Dan Folkes's skeletal of Allosaurus jimmadseni, holotype specimen (DINO 11541):

[astral kelp]

iirc didn’t Dan say this one was a juvenile/sub adult?

[light oxide]

Maybe -- can't quite remember. Let me go and see real quick.

[slow marsh]

Yeah, the holotype is a subadult

[light oxide]

Oh, there we go then.

[slow marsh]

dont worry

[tough parcel]

Bro

It’s not even your fault lmao, they’ve been cited as the doppelgänger of random many times (by me 😌 )

[light oxide]

Wrong channel, mate.

[rich ermine]

which one?

[light oxide]

Hmm . . . #path-of-titans maybe? Not sure since this is the Path of Titans server -- it doesn't really deal with the Isle stuff, if at all.

[light oxide]

Here is a size comparison I found between the adult Ceratosaurus specimen and the average sized Allosaurus specimen:

[heady thunder]

Throw in a huge allo now

[light oxide]

Hmm . . . Now that I'm looking at this, I do wonder what their niches may have been.

I do know that Scanova said something about Ceratosaurus being more plains specific in its niche than Allosaurus, which was more of a generalist in terms of habitat preference.

I honestly would've thought that Ceratosaurus was more forest orientated due to its slower speeds, more agile nature, and being a billboard would help going through thick vegetation. Slower speeds are more useful in forested areas than open areas, as ye can change directions more easily. That and Ceratosaurus may have been better at acceleration too. But who knows.

🤷

[heady thunder]

Allo does everything. And even its specimens kinda show it, being extremely common and ranging from full adults being as big as cera to way bigger.

[light oxide]

Some peeps have thought of Allosaurus as the "hyena" of the Morrison Formation. Due to some bits of evidence, according to some, showing them chewing on bones and whatnot.

[wanton haven]

Isn’t Cera called that? Never heard Allosaurus called a Hyena

It’s always been “THE GRAPPLING ANIMAL” for me

[light oxide]

Nah -- Ceratosaurus is sometimes called the "honey badger" of the Morrison Formation.

The Ceratosaurus = "hyena" and Allosaurus = "lion" comparisons, to my knowledge, are mainly from popular media sources and whatnot. No guarantees though.

[wanton haven]

Well the Ceratosaurus atleast makes sense, small body, bone crushing bite.

[graceful apex]

Kdksjwk

[wanton haven]

Allosaurus = lion is because

Lion = Cool = Dinosaur = Allosaurus

[light oxide]

It didn't really have a bone crushing bite. It just had larger teeth compared to its head size. Though it would've had a bigger bite force compared to an Allosaurus its size.

[wanton haven]

Bone crushing was just me being dramatic, but for its size it’s bite was really strong, like hyenas

[light osprey]

Sheesh ecological comparatives try not to use Sub-Saharan Africa challenge (impossible)

[light oxide]

Yeah, it do be like that. XD

[wanton haven]

Try not to base reptiles and birds off large mammals challenge

(Impossible) (Gone wild)

Like if nobody noticed lizards are a bit different than a honey badger

[chrome willow]

I really wish we had a realistic allo in game.

[light osprey]

erm T. rex is basically a lion right?

[chrome willow]

A Tiger

[wanton haven]

Mmmmmm myes this bird lizard thing the size of a building probably was just a bear….

[bright veldt]

Keep in mind that by dinosaur standards, allosaurus’s growth is weird…..

[chrome willow]

Or bear maybe

[light oxide]

Technically, Metriacanthosaurus is pretty close to an accurate sized Allosaurus. Just with a dewlap, somewhat different structure, different crests, a bit shorter than length, and has venom . . . Yeah . . .

[wanton haven]

Allosaurus is way to weird for being one of the most common fossils we find

[bright veldt]

Like, the largest definite allosaurus we have is immature, but we got proper adults smaller than it. It had a wide adult size range.

[wanton haven]

Either we don’t have allosaurus here or it’s just like alligators

[light osprey]

Personally I think the closest ecological comparative for T. rex is Tarbosaurus

[light oxide]

Hmm . . . I wonder if it could be due to environmental changes and food availability?

I do know that alligators can have stunted growths if they're not in properly sized areas or not enough food to grow larger.

[wanton haven]

some lizards can just warp their sizes when they get hungry, granted it’s usually just tail length

[bright veldt]

I mean growth sized based off of food availability is likely I think. Its the explanation given to plateosaurus, who is way more insane. Adults range from smallish 500kg 5m individuals to all the way to 10 meters and 4 tons.

[wanton haven]

Like that one iguana Darwin called literally disgusting and verbally assaulted for just looking funny

It changes tail sizes and maybe even body size depending on how much food is around without any real consequence

[bright veldt]

But yeah the Morrison’s top predator dynamic is interesting. Torvosaurus as the top of the pecking order and preferred forest edges where it could ambush larger prey. Ceratosaurus is a bit of an enigma, since it seemed to stick to dryer and wide open expanses. Allosaurus seemed to live anywhere and eat anything, which probably contributed to why they’re so damn common.

[light oxide]

Now that ye are here, actually, what makes ye think that Ceratosaurus was more open area orientated? Was just curious on how ye got to that conclusion. 👍

[wanton haven]

I really am more interested in their behaviour than anything

[tough parcel]

Last I saw, Cerato was a dense brush/wetlands predator (NOT SEMI-AQUATIC)

[light osprey]

Erm semi-aquatic?

[wanton haven]

Same here

[light osprey]

La tooth in the water, it must be semi-aquatic

[bright veldt]

Apparently Ceratosaurus is kind of rare outside of the myooropelta assemblage, which was a wide open fern prairie.

[wanton haven]

If you find a drowned dinosaur in the water I doubt it was semi aquatic (no I’m not saying it drowned pls don’t hurt me)

[bright veldt]

I kind of doubt allosaurus was regularly taking large prey, given the larger arms allowing for more diverse prey options, and there’s not much of a point risking life and limb for a risky prey item if a bigger carnivore is likely to steal it after the fact.

[light osprey]

Oh no it’s literally just a tooth, no other attributed material

[light oxide]

Interesting.

[wanton haven]

Didn’t like, they have super big teeth, that would take forever to grow back if they fell out >->

[bright veldt]

You see such things in intact ecosystems today. Puma are capable of taking prey as large as elk, but in ecosystems where they have to worry about wolves they don’t really do that.

[tough parcel]

No, the "mega tooth Cerato" is a product of tooth slippage. They had decent teeth, but not monstrous

[sullen cairn]

Same with leopards and whenever they live in not Sri Lanka

[wanton haven]

A puma can take down an elk yeah but a elk can heavily injure a Puma before it can kill it

Those hoofs are sharp

[sullen cairn]

It’s more that only apex predators frequently kill large prey because they don’t risk wasting energy if that kill is stolen

[bright veldt]

Eh the reason is less the risk and more the amount of effort required to take down the raid boss only for it to be taken from yah in the end.

[sullen cairn]

When wolves aren’t around even bull elk make up a good portion of cougars diet

[bright veldt]

Smaller prey is easier to cache away, less noticable, and easier to consume in entirety.

[light oxide]

We do know that Allosaurus does sometimes go after Stegosaurus. Based on that thagamizar that went through the jewels of one Allosaurus specimen.

[wanton haven]

I’ve never seen or heard of a cougar killing an elk, I feel like a cougar isn’t really built for that

[light oxide]

It is.

[sullen cairn]

Cougars are rather accomplished macropredators

[light oxide]

Felines are much more muscular than most people think.

[wanton haven]

I know they’re strong but an elk is pretty strong too

[bright veldt]

You see how they hunt guanaco? They put up the most fight out of any large animal I’ve seen but they manage anyway. Even if it means nearly getting their neck broken from all the shaking every single time.

[light osprey]

Real?

[wanton haven]

I’ve seen them hunt Guanaco, elk are a whole different deal

[bright veldt]

I’ve never seen it but I’ve never seen a puma hunt anything in the American wilderness actually caught on video commonly. Keep in mind coyote apparently manage to hunt adult moose in some localities somehow. Don’t ask me how.

[vocal breach]

Wtf they did to simba wtf

[sullen cairn]

Probably in 20ft of snow

[light osprey]

Simba took some creatine

[wanton haven]

Coyotes just eat things when they’re weak

[sullen cairn]

They are North America’s premier mesopredator

[bright veldt]

But yeah, back to topic, allosaurs basically lived anywhere and ate anything. Probably how they outlived torvo in the end.

[wanton haven]

Like large cattle getting killed by boars or something else it shouldn’t

Usually just happens when the boar jumps the sow during birth

[wanton haven]

Allosaurus was like the most extreme version of coyote when it comes to survivability

[sullen cairn]

anyways elk are one of the most common prey of cougars

males particularly kill more bull elk

[wanton haven]

Whenever I tried looking for a video, the closest one I got was like, three cougars trying to kill one bull elk

I’ve seen a cougar body stuck to a elk’s antlers though.

[bright veldt]

Actual video footage and what’s statistically shown aren’t always the same thing

[sullen cairn]

public videos aren't exactly indicitive of the freuquency of hunting incidents

[wanton haven]

Well what to hunting incidents go off, a half rotten body with a cougar next to it? Or just people saying they saw something

[bright veldt]

Leopards consistently take gorillas but it’s never seen as it happens (cause of course you don’t see it) and you still have the internet parading gorillas as these roidheads that have the strength to take grizzly bears and bench-press cars.

[wanton haven]

Leopards do kill gorrilas yeah, gorrilas aren’t built with loose skin around their neck so they just kinda die when one even looks at them

[tough parcel]

King Kong killed 3 T. rex's in his movie, so that is clearly applicable to IRL gorillas

[compact leaf]

I mean gorillas are insane roidheads, getting killed by leopards doesn’t change that

[wanton haven]

But gorrilas also consistently scare them away

[sullen cairn]

me when felines ambush prey

[wanton haven]

Yeah, they ambush their prey but Gorrilas aren’t exactly dumbfounded when one runs out behind them. They usually aren’t alone

[bright veldt]

^ a silverback also isn’t dying quickly or easily in any circumstance

[wanton haven]

It’s gonna wrestle with the leopard, and then the leopards gotta consider going back in for another attack after the gorrilas throws it 20 meters

I’m just saying that’s pretty scary.

Humans can scare away stuff we probably shouldn’t, just because we make loud noises and are tall

[bright veldt]

Another example is honey badgers and wolverines being prey for a lot of animals despite their reputation and the fact it’s rarely physically recorded.

Wolverines less so Tbf, the vast majority of their mortalities are from wolf packs that catch them trying to take their kills when their not looking.

[light osprey]

Real and true

[tough parcel]

Wolverines fr being like: "Oh no, the consequences of my actions!"

[wanton haven]

If leopards could just, remove gorrilas easily and without trouble, we wouldn’t have gorrilas. If two apex predators were constantly successful in killing elk, we wouldn’t have elk

[bright veldt]

I feel like you’re saying what’s already obvious to literally everyone here rn

[sullen cairn]

I’m still not quite sure how every study about cougar predation accidentally screwed up by thinking one of their staple prey items was elk

[bright veldt]

Eh how they determine such things is typically pretty rigorous. People that actually know what to look for can tell a lot from a corpse (IE killed vs scavenged)

[sullen cairn]

That was sarcasm

[compact leaf]

ambush is just a good strategy for going after elk and cougars are good at that strategy, elk just reproduce fast enough to deal with it and get away enough, that’s just basic predatory interaction

[bright veldt]

I also said it cause someone else questioned this earlier

[sullen cairn]

Ah

[wanton haven]

I’m saying an Cougar wouldn’t want to go after elk unless it really needed to, it’s mainly solitary, the elk dwarfs it, I would say elks scare them away or even kill them a lot more than cougars do

[sullen cairn]

💀

[wanton haven]

Cats aren’t exactly know for being fearless

[sullen cairn]

If elk were killing cougars more than vice versa cougars would all be dead

[wanton haven]

Even killing, I’m not saying they kill them 24/7

[bright veldt]

Most predators are capable of taking on way more than what is typically expected tho. A similar example is lynx taking whitetail and mule deer

[sullen cairn]

And there’s also the studies which clearly state elk compose a significant portion of cougar prey which is kinda important to the discussion

[bright veldt]

Also that one case of a Nile croc somehow fighting with a white rhino for a while before eventually dragging it under

[last iron]

Huh 😭

[tough parcel]

I've seen that case too, but I don't have the article

[bright veldt]

And the very rare recorded instances of tigers taking rhinos as well.

[onyx sedge]

House cat vs elk

[chilly knot]

Lone wolves took on elks

[bright veldt]

Same with moose surprisingly.

It’s important to note that a lot of it comes with specific individuals being very good at what they do tho.

[sullen cairn]

Or a moose in 12 ft of snow in the middle of the winter

[compact leaf]

I heard that the giant chin on shant is just an error of casting the fossil, anyone know anything about that?

[hallow spear]

Well yea, it goes aftyer everything it can, it is after all a generalist

[compact leaf]

from what I can gather some of the weird things about it like the chin and weirdly rotated predentary are not mentioned in the literature but idk if I'm just missing something

[hallow spear]

Its not an error

[compact leaf]

so we do actually have the predentary?

[light osprey]

To be fair they are stinky swimmers

[astral kelp]

I think there was also a case of a hyena taking down a Cape buffalo once but she was pregnant and on the floor

[light oxide]

Hyenas and honey badgers are also know for going for the jewels of animals sometimes.

Which makes ye think about which regions predatory dinosaurs may have attacked for larger prey items.

[viscid surge]

Calmest and most on topic conversation in paleo chat:

[tough parcel]

Considering dinosaurs didn't have external "jewels" (I might get deleted for saying it outright), I doubt they were aiming for that region. Besides, it's really only a canid-hyena thing to aim for that area

[light oxide]

I was just making a point that not all animals aim for the neck, using the hyena and honey badger as examples.

[light osprey]

Try those tasty tail muscles

[bright veldt]

Its a myth with honey badgers given if something is so big they need to aim for a vital area then they aren't looking to kill it to begin with and thus aren't doing that.

[light oxide]

I see. Noted.

[dull lodge]

My friend said he could beat a Komodo dragon in a fight with a Bowie knife

[tough parcel]

I mean...he's got a knife? So that automatically makes him incredibly dangerous towards any "small" animal

[bright veldt]

Eh the komodo dragon still has better odds of disabling him than the other around.

[tough parcel]

Oh yea, but like if the K. dragon grabs a hold of his leg and thrashes, that brings the thing close enough for him to stab the knife through the neck or head (Though this implies he'd have the thought to do that, being shredded is very traumatic)

[bright veldt]

Komodo dragons also have osteoderms

[tough parcel]

I knew about that, but I do wonder how well they'd work against a guy slamming a knife into the skin 🤔

[astral kelp]

The knife would still likely penetrate, esp considering he’s got to hit fast and hard

[stiff osprey]

But what if the Komodo dragon also had a knife

[tough parcel]

Oh god, oh frick, the komodo already has daggers in its mouth, why does it get a knife 😭

[tranquil quartz]

What if we gave the Komodo Dragon a Komodo Dragon?

[jagged trellis]

komodo dragons have been recorded doing parthenogenesis once or twice right, so given enough time yeah probably could

[light oxide]

That and nothing really has a resistance to piercing weaponry. Hence why bullet resistant vests are still very much able to be pierced by a knife.

[light oxide]

I mean, they already do if ye count their teeth. XD

[somber tartan]

Are there any videos showing an accurate depiction of dimetrodons locomotion

[light oxide]

Hmm . . . Give me a moment.

I remember someone showing me a documentary scene that had a dimetrodon hunt sequence.

[somber tartan]

Walking with monsters? I’ve seen that but idk if that’s outdated movement for dimetrodon or not

[light oxide]

Not Walking with Monsters -- It was this: https://youtu.be/r-UlEal40Qk?si=LMRENwseTZg8-qgG

[stiff osprey]

Pack hunting Dimetrodon 😨

[somber tartan]

Ah

[tranquil quartz]

😱

[dull lodge]

I’m just saying bro a Komodo dragon would throw you to the ground so fast I think he would lose

[somber tartan]

But wait, isn’t dimetrodons stance more like this?

[tranquil quartz]

What if im in a car

[nocturne gazelle]

Really depends on how quick your friend can dodge.

Komodos have a few advantages

• size (in length)
• natural armor
• run speed
• bite force and venom

However humans do actually have a few things going for them as well.

• Height
• Tools (in this instance the knife would negate really any armor advantage the komodo has)
• reach
• agility (getting on top of the komodo in a grapple could probably keep the person out of reach from its mouth though claws could still do a good bit of damage)

Overall I'd say maybe 55/45 komodos favor. I'm unsure how often a komodo would try to take on a human though. Intimidation is a factor and outside of a rules 1v1 humans do have more going for them.

For example, if the person is allowed to pick up a long branch to shove in the way of the komodos bite, that could provide a large advantage. It would open opportunities for a stab.

[light oxide]

Yeah . . .

[nocturne gazelle]

Also, is the human able to kite? A person could probably outmaneuver a komodo long enough to tire it out. If they're a fit person.

Humans have a few unique advantages compared to the animal kingdom:

• our throwing ability is unmatched
• tool usage is unmatched
• some of the best endurance runners (most humans do suck at running since we do not do it much anymore.)

Take those things away and... yea humans aren't that great. But they're what we evolved to do, and we do it well.

[light oxide]

Well . . . Ankylosaurus got downsized:

"Ankylosaurus magniventris for GDI. Lateral, Dorsal & Anterior by Brennon valdez (Armour was removed in the GDI, I'm just too lazy to remove it here). 1m = 560 & 600px. (Larger scalebar depicts holotype size, smaller scalebar depicts largest specimen, CMN 8880)

Ankylosaurus magniventris GDI results.
(CMN 8880) Large Canadian skull specimen, results in a total length of 6.96m and a mass of 4414kg. (You can add 5-10% for an estimated amount of mass the Osteoderms would add)
(CCM V03) Handle specimen is also about identical size to the Canadian skull."

[nocturne gazelle]

How large was it previously

[light oxide]

To my knowledge, 5 to 8 tonnes. No guarantees, though.

[nocturne gazelle]

Sheesh

[clever sable]

https://tenor.com/view/godfather-massacre-sad-gif-16810633

[tranquil quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/noooo-star-wars-darth-vader-gif-8348766

[bright veldt]

That's the smallest I've seen it.

Before Fadeno it was like 8 meters and 5 tons.

Ok, upon some disection. It didn't get shrunk. It's just a reconstruction/GDI of a smaller specimen. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/512496784547905547/1149818542192087080/Ankylosaurus_specimen_skeletals.png

[sullen cairn]

V003 got downsized

[clever sable]

The skeletals been out of date for a while iirc, also the proportions are very different between the 2 skeletals

[bright veldt]

So what would be 003?

[sullen cairn]

About the same size as 8880

[bright veldt]

In that image or in general? Cause the latter don't help lol.

[sullen cairn]

In general

[clever sable]

Well how would 8880 be in general.....

[sullen cairn]

Handle’s the same depth and height as 5214 just wider

8880 is the one in the gdi

[bright veldt]

Wouldn't it logically get bigger? Given 880 in the new gdi is greater than the old one? I don't get it.

[sullen cairn]

The new gdi 8880 is like half the size of fadeno’s

And v003 is the same size of or smaller than 8880

[woeful falcon]

How about we post that gdi instead of 5895

[sullen cairn]

Is there a gdi of 8880 itself?
From what I know the weight’s just scaling with 5895’s

Doesn’t make a difference but yeah it’d be a lot more digestable if there were a gdi of just 8880

[small geyser]

Meh. Still a cool animal.

[woeful falcon]

Ye more digestable is exactly the word I was looking for. I presume there isn't tho

[sullen cairn]

Yeah an 8880 itself gdi would be very helpful because right now it’s “anky got downsized because stego gi’d lance’s 5895 and scaled it with the largest specimen 8880 which came out as under 5t and also fadeno’s v003 estimate got downsized and isn’t any larger than 8880”

And not everyone is gonna know that v003 is handle specimen

[bright veldt]

For a GDI this is more vague than I expected

[stiff osprey]

Guys, 8880 is not proportioned different from 5895. It's a skull. Scale it up

But stego already did so, Ken's post above says CMN 8880 is 7 meters and 4414 kg

[sullen cairn]

that and handle being v003 are mentioned but ig it's kinda easy to gloss over

i think me saying 8880 is the one in the gdi was confusing because the gdi itself is 5895 and 8880's size is mentioned directly below it

[woeful falcon]

Imagine how silly and confusing this conversation looks to someone not reading carefully enough or don't have the knowledge to assess it appropriately

[sullen cairn]

"why is paleo chat always dead?"

[tough parcel]

I'm just kinda confused how y'all got "it's a smaller specimen" and then assumed that the big Anky from Fadeno was still valid

[sullen cairn]

yeah idk where that came from

[tough parcel]

We live in a society where big Anky doesn't exist, good

[sullen cairn]

yeah it's only the size of an asian elephant

[woeful falcon]

Smaller and weaker tyrannosaurus food 😈

[sullen cairn]

the greater tragedy here is lancian's sanity with the osteoderms that weren't even included in the actual gdi which is the only part anyone seems to care about

[tough parcel]

I have it on good authority that his crazy side kicked in mid-way and he started enjoying the circles

[undone parcel]

dont know the conersation but is Anky still the largest Ankylosaur so far?

[stiff osprey]

yep, by a wide margin

[light oxide]

Even with the downsize, Ankylosaurus is still the largest ankylosaur.

[undone parcel]

pinacosaurus just amuses me as a coffe table though

was Pinacs wideness a asian ank thing or probably more diverse..cause i think Tarchia has some form of wideness

[compact leaf]

how big is tarchia?

[tough parcel]

Fat 👍

[sullen cairn]

gdi's 2660kg

[compact leaf]

I thought it would be more than that ngl

I’m too used to absurd sauropod weights

[stiff osprey]

i was unaware someone GDIed tarchia

[sullen cairn]

4th thing up in ornithischia gdi estimates

from stego

[stiff osprey]

oh word

[tough parcel]

Huh, well I'll be lmao

[stiff osprey]

if Tarchia reaches 7m, as i've occasionally heard it rumored, then it could surpass Ankylosaurus

if a 5.9m one weighs nearly 2.7 tonnes a 7m one would be 4.6t

[tough parcel]

Oh boy, can't wait for the next big paleo video: "Ankylosaurus no longer biggest ankylosaur?? Tarchia on top??"

[stiff osprey]

(the Tarchia scaling is based on a footprint or something)

[compact leaf]

then we find a giant nodosaur that gets bigger than both for some reason, because what are they even doing

[sullen cairn]

watch gamera become the largest ankylosaurian

would be unironically based

[compact leaf]

a sauropod mimic nodosaur along the same lines as miragaia would be really cool tbh

[sullen cairn]

anky's now smaller than gsp's suspicously large cedarpelta

why does he have that thing at five tons

[compact leaf]

because it’s gsp that’s all the explanation you need

I will say for some reason his sauropod estimates are shockingly reasonable a lot of the time

[sullen cairn]

4000kg rajasaurus

[compact leaf]

I still think larramendis mass titanosaur downsizing of 2020 is hilarious, he just had an absolute field day with it

[sullen cairn]

maybe he just wasn't in a good mood that day

[compact leaf]

I like to think he got frustrated with one particular titanosaur and decided to take it out on the whole clade

“fine, be that way I’m making you all smaller”

[clever sable]

This anky downsize is hitting me harder than the sarco downsize

[tough parcel]

I can't even make a funny joke because the name of the penguin is censored here

The jack#ss penguin? More like the jack#ss titanosaur

[compact leaf]

all titanosaurs are like that they’re a complete nuisance to deal with

I couldn’t blame him for getting mad at them

[undone parcel]

titanosaurs are just a pain to talk about, sauropods in general actually

[compact leaf]

my official diagnosis on sauropods groups is this:
titanosaurs - I hate them, they’re a mess, all of them
brachiosaurids - they’re my favorite, but they preserve horrible and like to pop up in weird places and times
camarasaurids - camarasaurus is easy but the family as a whole gives titanosaurs a run for their money
diplodocoids - what are rebbachisaurids doing?
the rest haven’t done anything to agitate me yet but it’s only a matter of time

[undone parcel]

ehh id say camarasaurus in of itself is a headache

[compact leaf]

it can be yeah but at least we know a lot about it, the family as a whole moves around a lot though

[undone parcel]

controversial 4th species

[compact leaf]

a lot of early cretaceous somphospondylids really belong in camarasauridae or brachiosauridae but they thought it was too late for that and made a new family

[compact leaf]

we don’t talk about that

[undone parcel]

then theres titanosaurs where each new one if just trying to be bigger then Argent just for it to come out it isnt

[compact leaf]

basal titanosaurs are a catastrophe

[stiff osprey]

Peloroplites and Cedarpelta are genuinely huge but no one talks about them (measurements are scarce so ig that's fair)

[bright veldt]

I'm sorry I'm still confused on the context of the anky

[stiff osprey]

Kirkland is not a small man

[undone parcel]

isnt Titanosaurus itself tiny for a titanosaur...

[tough parcel]

You should make a silhouette of them, scale it to the toe bone and then publish it as fact

[sullen cairn]

i did scale that thing to the head once

[bright veldt]

I was in moviewatch and DnD for like 3 hours so idk wtf I missed

[sullen cairn]

big cedar mountain ankylosaurians

[compact leaf]

I like scaling fragmentary sauropods but I’m too lazy to do it frequently

[tough parcel]

Can one of you copy-paste Lancian’s explanation to this chat? (Random or Table)

I’m about to go dunk myself into juice

[undone parcel]

i just know i think about kaiju titanosaurus more then dinosaur titanosaurus

[compact leaf]

that’s terrifying, Kirkland is not a small man and he looks puny

[sullen cairn]

this is on handle man

[clever sable]

Comparison of the anky holotype and Scotty (credit to Dan folkes and Brennon Valdez)

[clever sable]

Somewhat rough but it's as close as I could get

[sullen cairn]

this is what i got scaling peloro using the 56cm skull

[eager skiff]

Cope and anky

[sullen cairn]

tissue likely sucks and it's obviously gonna be a bit off but whatever

[clever sable]

I hope you aren't using that insanely massive cope estimate

[eager skiff]

Meybe

[clever sable]

Cope is likely much smaller than 12 tonnes, being roughly 10.6-10.8 in reality iirc

[undone parcel]

so the theory or hypothesis that ankylosaurs would hunker down or make themselves a pit to effectively make them unflippable while swinging tails at wouldbe predators..is that..a still possible thing

[eager skiff]

Still body slams anky

[clever sable]

Well.... yeah, but like, still better to use more accurate sizes

[eager skiff]

Yeah

[undone parcel]

"body slams" as if anky wasnt like top 3 most dangerous prey items

[eager skiff]

Obviously

[stiff osprey]

boy that sure is a skeletal

but yeah, near 7m animal

[clever sable]

Well.....

Anky holotype VS Scotty

Obviously it's gonna be difficult but uhhhhhh

[undone parcel]

tail club v legs

[stiff osprey]

comparing largest rex to average anky 💀

[sullen cairn]

truly one of the skeletals of all time which totally wasn't me turning up the image brightness
and yeah the thing was like 7m TL

[chilly knot]

No way Dynamosaurus with osteoderms

[undone parcel]

brings me back to the hypothesis i remember, where ankylosaurs were suggested to hunker down or even make little pits to sit in to prevent flipping and basically swing the tail freely

[clever sable]

Well... you have exposed me

[tough parcel]

After I did some critical thinking, I discovered why this doesn’t make sense. You dig a pit, put yourself in it, and now you can’t move your body to face your attacker… A rex would just need to twinkle toes around the Anky’s club and crush its skull

[sullen cairn]

wrong the anky would spin its tail as to generate lift and hover out of said hole before instantly shattering the rex's ankles with a mere whiff of said tail

[tough parcel]

True…

[stiff osprey]

It's a strategy that makes sense if you're a 300 gram lizard that can bury itself in the sand. Makes less sense to a 3000000 gram ankylosaur

[undone parcel]

unless it was for nodosaurs who had shoulder spikes for more defensive capabilities

[light oxide]

I have a different theory.

Maybe they just used their flat wide bodies to deter attackers (AKA, Adjust their bodies to where their very wide top is facing their predators)? It would be hard to exactly bite onto the widest part of an animal like that, especially if it has osteoderms. Of course, the club tail may have been evolved to further deter predation.

[sullen cairn]

being a table is an efficient strategy, i will endorse for wholly unbiased reasons 👍

[undone parcel]

pinacosaurus moment

its just perfect Pinaco means "Plank Lizard" and it is just a table

[nocturne gazelle]

Makes sense. Just tilt your body to the side and become the shield.

[storm heron]

Turtles have been shown to do this whenever being attacked by sharks.

[rose thorn]

Well tbf, ankylosaur skull shape literally evolved to prevent tyrannosaurs from getting a grip. Ignore that one unlucky Tarchia. I would have assumed as well that within the shallow divot that the anky is still capable of pivoting

Interesting divergence in American and Asian ankylosaurs though is general width and club size. Asian species all tend to be wider with smaller clubs.

[lavish frigate]

Rex could probably fit anky in its mouth…. 💀

[covert lintel]

with great difficulty

[storm heron]

Wouldn't it be funny if the reason why Asian Ankylosaurs tend to be wider than their American counterparts due to the local Tyrannosaurs being more proportionally big headed (E.g. Tarbosaurus).

[lavish frigate]

Me as a kid trying to fit the whole fork in my mouth sideways?

[light osprey]

I think there might be some dispute over why bony clubs appear in the clade.

[bright veldt]

It likely evolved initially for interspecific combat and also functioned as defensive shin smashers.

[covert lintel]

as far as i know, weaponized structures like horns tend to first evolve for intraspecific competition, and then later gain the secondary use of defense against predators. the clubs probably started out the same way, since there's some evidence of ankylosaurs using their clubs against eachother

[bright veldt]

This was actually noted in Doedicurus first funnily enough due to the fact that in their case the tail would've been very impractical as a defense, on top of wounds from one another.

[little mauve]

Ankylosaurs were massive hindgut fermenters too, a lot of that width & low slung body is due to gut size and general lifestyle

[light osprey]

Do we have any good presence of the structure actually being used in defense?

[bright veldt]

Not really but we don't have evidence of T. rex's getting stabbed by trike horns either.

[little mauve]

Maybe neither were used as defensive structures 🤷‍♂️

[light osprey]

that’s usually what I try to imply with my questions lol

[bright veldt]

I mean its a matter of 'Why not". We don't have theropods crushed by sauropods (on purpose) or anything similar either. Stegosaurus thagomizer holes punched through allo bones are the only direct evidence I can think of involving herbivores injuring carnivores.

[compact leaf]

I’m pretty sure there’s a few allosaurus specimens with blunt force trauma inferred from sauropods but I’d have to dig for them

[bright veldt]

Even then we can't really know if those are from sauropods. Blunt force injuries can come from a lot of things.

[little mauve]

We have sufficiently injured allosaurs that I could see them being fairly regularly at least injured while hunting. It's much rarer in other theropods and does deserve examination imo

[compact leaf]

I mean some of the ones I heard about are so extreme in specific places the most logical explanation is that a sauropod walloped it

[light osprey]

It’s more evidence that the Morrison actively hated Allosaurus and sought to torture them

[little mauve]

The wile e. coyotesaurus

[compact leaf]

we also have evidence that some sauropods were actively hitting things with the end of their tails

it could be other sauropods or an object but it’s not a far leap to assume that they’d be hitting a predator with it if need be

[nocturne gazelle]

If it's able to hit other stuff, why not hit a predator

[pearl briar]

should i updated my anky size info now?

[sullen cairn]

Probably

[snow python]

How big was Cope after all if that 13,1m and 12,4t estimate is an exaggeration

[heady thunder]

13.1m and 12.4 ton was like max estimate, more conservative was like 12m and 10 tons.

[next moss]

yea

[tough parcel]

No because I’m making a new one lol

[heady thunder]

The osteoderms on the back have spikes, thats cool, never noticed it before.

[tough parcel]

Crying, it’s old af (years old), ignore it 😭 I was a fool

[heady thunder]

Nah its cool.

[sudden wind]

Yes

Once Falc finished her recon

[tough parcel]

Yes please wait, I’m almost done, soon™️

[static zodiac]

What dinosaurs did megalosaurus hunted? (need for a school project)

[static zodiac]

Thanks

[clever sable]

Are there any confirmed burrowing dinosaurs?

[stiff osprey]

Oryctodromeus, Leptoceratops, a couple other small ornithopods

[compact leaf]

beat me to it

[clever sable]

Thanks

[clever sable]

Do you think stegoceras would have burrowed or is that impossible for it?

[bright veldt]

Aren’t there arms quite flimsy/small?

[next escarp]

There could be "burrow squatters" like burrowing owls or rattlesnakes calling prairie dog burrows home.

[stiff osprey]

Yeah, could likely take over an existing burrow but I highly doubt it would make one

[lyric wave]

I am confused

[last iron]

So you’ve got two major groups, Synapsids and Diapsids
Synapsids are more closely related to mammals, while Diapsids are related more to birds and reptiles

Gorgonops, Dimetrodon, etc are all Synapsids

[lyric wave]

Ah okay

[last iron]

The easiest way to tell which is which is by looking at their skull https://cdn.britannica.com/63/117263-050-47D5043F/skull-types.jpg

[lyric wave]

Okay
I see

Wait
Your not trolling me right, you are using a Nick pfp. lol

[last iron]

I used to be matching with someone lol, but here is a Dimetrodon skull

[stiff osprey]

What the hell is a parapsid lol

[lyric wave]

Cool

[stiff osprey]

Synapsid, anapsid and diapsid are real, the others are mental illness

[last iron]

Icthyosaurs and plesiosaurs are in that category

[stiff osprey]

that's euryapsid, I think

Which in turn evolved from the diapsid condition

[light osprey]

Polyphyletic groups 🤕

[leaden vigil]

Were there ever flying mammals besides bats?

[stiff osprey]

No, but there were (and are) many gliding ones

[clever sable]

Aren't turtles really weird and for a while they were classified incorrectly?

[compact leaf]

I’m pretty sure turtles classification is still shaky but yeah they’ve moved around a lot

[stiff osprey]

Turtles are definitely diapsids. But until like 20 years ago they were called anapsids because they lost their fenestrae independently

[next escarp]

I remember back in Bachelor's they were considered anapsids. ATM they seem to be in Archelosauria (I think that's how it's spelled.)

[stiff osprey]

In schools they're often still mentioned as anapsids to this day, because linnaean taxonomy schools moment

[sullen cairn]

Me when schools say we didn’t come from monkeys instead we just share common ancestor for the 2000th time because they don’t understand monophyly

[tranquil quartz]

I remember in my biology class my science teacher was talking evolution and said that chickens are descendants of the trex 🤦‍♂️
Average school

[stiff osprey]

In 5th grade we were told caiman were the ancestors of dinosaurs

[next escarp]

At least your science teacher wasn't a Richard Dawkins simp.

[tranquil quartz]

Oh no

[sullen cairn]

Flashback to the most disgusting possible canine cladogram I’ve seen

Cerdocyonina you will be missed

[stiff osprey]

That reminds me of the tree where Australopithecus, Paranthropus and Homo were all polyphyletic

[next escarp]

AYO??

[last iron]

Some dogs fr be looking like a dif species though

[sullen cairn]

Perhaps more egregious is vulpes lycaon and canis being in a polytomy

Should’ve done maximum trolling and included eastern wolves in addition to red wolves

[last iron]

Should’ve added hyenas too

[sullen cairn]

Caniform hyenas

[tranquil quartz]

Tbf theres so many people who believe Hyenas are related to Dogs, Wolves unaware of the fact they are feliforms.

[last iron]

Hyenas are goofy ahh

[plain stirrup]

Were there any small herbis that could climb trees?

[woeful falcon]

I assume we're talking about dinosaurs in this case

[plain stirrup]

yes

[tranquil quartz]

Aardwolf only relevant member fr

[bright veldt]

We have evidence of aboreal heterodontosaurs

[compact leaf]

I’m trying to think of more but they’re pretty much the prime example, I wouldn’t put it past other small ornithopods though

[bright veldt]

Most raptors could probably climb trees until you got to the largest ones.

[leaden vigil]

Thats crazy, do you know when bats evolved into their flying form or what they evolved from? (Id assume some sort of glider but Im still curious)

[covert lintel]

yeah, wouldn't be too shocked. sometimes animals that don't look like they'd be any good at climbing trees are actually pretty good at climbing trees. (see: goats, and their desire to be in trees despite being ungulates)

[clever sable]

Well, goats are pretty good at climbing mountains for some reason

[light osprey]

Fuel the paleo-memes 🔥

[white matrix]

Bruh who the hell named a dinosaur "Thanos"

[covert lintel]

i've been trying to write a more complete answer to this that's Factually Sound, and i'm not getting very far with it, so i'll just give you what i've managed to scrounge together:

-bats are usually placed near ferungulata, as far as i can tell?
-they don't fossilize very well (on account of being small and fragile), so it's rare to find Good Bat Fossils
-might be a pterosaur-type situation where they just Appear in the fossil record already fully flighted? (unsure)
-microbats were around at Least 52 million years ago. the early microbat in question was already Pretty Much A Normal Bat

[bright veldt]

They do just randomly appear already fully flighted in the Palaeocene right after the KT. Echolocation appeared very shortly after as well.

[white matrix]

Since we're talking about bats, I like Vulcanops

[bright veldt]

There's speculation that they might've actually first evolved in the Cretaceous but it's unlikely I think.

[white matrix]

I agree they probably evolved from some sort of gliding critter

[light osprey]

I wouldn’t be too surprised, by the Maastrichtian we got some sort of Ornithorhynchid monotreme in Patagonia, so specialised mammals were appearing

[covert lintel]

awesome. i love it when small flighted animals suddenly manifest from thin air

[white matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[stiff osprey]

me when I'm walking at night and a bat swoops 2 feet from my face

[storm heron]

Woah really?

[bright veldt]

There's at least one species with leg anatomy that points to perching like birds

[white matrix]

Manidens?

[bright veldt]

That's the one

[white matrix]

I wonder if Herrerasaurus actually had the body for tree climber, probably not

[pearl briar]

well i like onychonycteris more

[white matrix]

Username checks out

[steady rock]

is it true deinosuchus mostly likely lived in the great interior sea and was like a saltwater croc

[white matrix]

No

[steady rock]

damn

[clever sable]

Deinosuchus hatcheri did live in the western interior seaway though.....

[white matrix]

Yo frr?? Thats sick

Why those skull emojis? 💀💀

[bright veldt]

It was a primarily estuarine species. They lived in the coastline estuaries and swamps, occasionally travelling out in both directions, inland and sea.

[safe forum]

We are debating about how fast giga could run they say 30 which from what I found is outdated. However I found 8-15 or 15-20, is either accurate?

[bright veldt]

I don’t know the exact speed, but rex ran at like 15 kmph, and giga was probably a lil bit slower.

[clever sable]

15 kmh is far too slow, that's like 9 mph, the Lowest I've ever seen rex is 19 kmh/12 mph

[bright veldt]

Ok fair. I don’t know kmph so I didn’t do it right.

[clever sable]

Personally I just use the MPH to KMH Google converter

It's very helpful

[clever sable]

Gigas speed calculations

Speed calculation for MUCPv-95:

---

• Weight: 8000+ kg

  • Optimal Cadence: 1.5
  • Optimal Stride Ratio: 1.6

• Total Leg Length from MUCPv-Ch1: 3180 mm

• Size Increase estimate for MUCPv-95: 6.6%

• (T+M)÷F Ratio from MUCPv-Ch1: 1.22 ~= 1.2 - 1.3

  • Optimal Cadence: 0.92
  • Optimal Stride Ratio: 0.88
  • Leg Length of MUCPv-95: 3180 × 1.066 = 3,389.88 mm

• Cadence Result: 1.5 × 0.92 = 1.38

• Stride Length Result: 1.6 × 0.88 = 1.408

  • Velocity: (3389.88 × 1.38 × 1.408) × 0.0036 = 23.7120207667 km/h ~= 23.71 km/h

---

So the Giganotosaurus specimen MUCPv-95 has a rough estimated velocity of 23.71 km/h.

[safe forum]

Thank you Fred

[clever sable]

Thank @light oxide and @stiff osprey they are the ones who did it

[clever sable]

But np

[safe forum]

Well, tell them I said thank you as I don’t want to disturb them

[light oxide]

It's alright, mate. 👍

[dusky stratus]

Does anyone have a good Peloroplites skeletal? or something similar to reference?

[sullen cairn]

Le “skeletal”

The term “skeletal” is used incredibly liberally here

[dusky stratus]

good enough, thanks!

[pearl briar]

i'm not mentioned to be rude but 23 km/h seems too fast for a big theropod like giga 😭

[clever sable]

Nah, that's actually about right, rex is like 21 kmh for sue iirc

[pearl briar]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-crazy-man-godku-thats-nuts-thats-insane-thats-wild-gif-21816225

[light osprey]

Really?

[sterile trail]

I just found this Bullhonky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oRDid4OK-w

[clever sable]

Mega dinosaurs is not a reliable source at all

[sterile trail]

yeah, i get that

like I said, Bullhonky

[stiff osprey]

Surely he could at least use a thumbnail that isn't from jurassic world

[lavish frigate]

Don’t be silly that’s not from Jurassic world….they clearly made it themselves by stealing Jurassic world renders 💀

[covert lintel]

large animals are capable of traveling at speeds

[trim crag]

what did you say...

Jaguar: Struggles to take down a 2 meter long caiman or a 77 kg capybara, and is fat

Leopards: known to take down prey as large as male wildebeest, zebra, male kudu and male eland, each of these species capable of reaching anywhere between 3-10+ times the weight of a leopard

In fact a male eland was once killed by a leopard and this eland weighed around 1 ton, assuming that this leopard was only 130-160 lbs (average weight of male African savanna leopards) this eland weighed roughly 12-15 times the weight of the leopard

Checkmate jaguar fan

Oh and leopards are not jaguar ripoffs, more like the other way around, leopards are thought to be the most basal pantherine and their body plan, ecology and adaptability somewhat proves this

[heady thunder]

Is that a reply to a 3 week old post?
Tho its a leopard W, so Ill encourage it

[sullen cairn]

"we don't see jagaurs killing animals 10x their body mass"
largest animal in the amazon is barely 300kg
hmm yeah i wonder why we don't see jaguars killing 1000kg prey

[trim crag]

Black caimans and tapir can reach very large weights

[trim crag]

I just searched "panthera" to see if any goons were spreading misinformation

[heady thunder]

They can try a big domesticated bull if theyre lucky enough, but thats almost cheating

[trim crag]

Jaguars have taken large specimens of domestic cattle and horses

but so have leopards

[sullen cairn]

i shoulda said terrestrial so fair enough

[trim crag]

Obviously my jaguar slander is a joke but people should not compare animals based on strength and hunting capability. I only brought up the leopard side to prove that leopards are not puny weaklings

[heady thunder]

I respect the hussle.

@sullen cairn Arent tapirs also terrestrial tho

[trim crag]

Yeah

[sullen cairn]

i don't think tapirs really get much past 300kg unless it's an exceptional specimen

[trim crag]

Yeah I don't think so either

[heady thunder]

Thats the most entertaining thing the animal community has to offer, especially when regarding extinct ones

[trim crag]

Yeah which is unfortunate. Animal interactions are always fun to discuss but stupid comparisons or unnatural debates are just annoying and not worthy of scientific discussion

[sullen cairn]

jaguars and leopards are dumb to compare in prey anyways since besides entirely different environments with totally distinct prey composition and leopards aren't typically apex predators unlike jaguars

so obviously there will be a bias towards leopards hunting smaller animals and even then they still kill big things frequently

[trim crag]

Yeah true. Although during the Pleistocene jaguars were subordinate to many predators. However today their only real threats are black caimans, american crocodiles and morelet's crocodiles. Leopards have to deal with 5 bear species, 4 other large cats, 3 canid species, 4 crocodilians and reticulated pythons throughout their range. They're only considered apex predators on Sri Lanka and Java

and the animals i listed don't even cover the threats to cubs, although I forgot to include spotted, striped and brown hyenas

[sullen cairn]

and in sri lanka they are routinely killing ungulates multiple times there body mass

[trim crag]

Indeed

[sullen cairn]

i think it was something like only 15% of prey items were smaller than em or something along those lines

[trim crag]

That I'm not sure of specifically but I do know they take larger prey quite often in Sri Lanka because their biggest threats are other leopards and mugger crocodiles

Very little competition

[sullen cairn]

yeah i think that study concluded leopards usually hunt smaller prey to avoid competition

similar to how cougars hunt more elk in the absence of wolves

[trim crag]

Yeah, which makes perfect sense, especially in Africa. You have lions, hyenas, dogs, cheetahs, jackals, crocodiles and other leopards all eying up your prey, so it's best to take a hare or small antelope as compared to their capability to take a much larger meal. Niche partitioning at its finest

I wish this chat was just changed to "biology" nobody has animal discussions in the pets channel. It fits this channel anyways since many living animals are discussed here all the time

Also, cool art of a Pleistocene North American jaguar Panthera onca augusta that took down a bull elk

[sullen cairn]

goes hard

wasn't there that jaguar wandering around arizona a few years ago? El jefe or something like that

[trim crag]

Yes, he was actually sighted last year in Mexico, alive and well. But I think he is at the end of his reign; today he is likely anywhere from 13-16 years old, already very old for a wild jaguar. He may not have much time left or even be alive at all but his legacy will live on and provide hope for a positive reintroduction of jaguars into the United States.

Anyways, I should get to sleep now, I plan to go herping tomorrow, peace

[sullen cairn]

nice to hear he's still kicking
night

[storm heron]

Ah Sri Lankan Leopards

One of the unique dominant terrestrial predators of the land

[light osprey]

Do we have a mean temperature for the Hell Creek?

[clever sable]

Tbf, there are populations of jaguars who hunt black Caimans a good bit, there was a 3.8 meter black Caiman killed by one of em

[stiff osprey]

This despite jaguars in the amazon being smaller on average than the more southern populations

[pearl briar]

do you mean hot temperature or cold temperature?

[viscid surge]

They mean just an average… mean… temperature

[white matrix]

Bruh i suck at maths but that i remembered

[light osprey]

Lovely; now, mean temperature?

[astral kelp]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nan-Arens/publication/279980306_A_florule_from_the_base_of_the_Hell_Creek_Formation_in_the_type_area_of_eastern_Montana_Implications_for_vegetation_and_climate/links/6463edc202c5097541bf740f/A-florule-from-the-base-of-the-Hell-Creek-Formation-in-the-type-area-of-eastern-Montana-Implications-for-vegetation-and-climate.pdf

[light osprey]

Delicious thanks

[viscid surge]

Damn thats pretty cold

[light osprey]

Yeah a bit cold from what I was expecting

[covert lintel]

huh, that is pretty chilly. weird.
glancing at the paper, it doesn't look like it'd frequently drop to 0 °C in winter, but it gets closer than i'd expect. guess it's yet another reminder that the mesozoic had biomes other than Hot Jungle and Hot Desert

[light osprey]

It’s like a fully temperate climate according to this though

[compact leaf]

yeah that's a lot more temperate than I was anticipating

[little mauve]

Hell Creek had crocodylians so I'd definitely err on the higher end of these estimates, including the margins of error. Paleoclimatology is really tricky stuff and frequently produces lower than expected results

[covert lintel]

ahh, i see. understandable

[light osprey]

I was about remark something like that, because even 11-12 degrees Celsius as an annual mean is pretty much identical to current northern U.S.

[little mauve]

Yeah these results are pretty fishy imo, not the fault of the authors it's just a really hard science

It was further north & definitely cooler and more seasonal than a lot of people think. The crocs & turtles are fairly modest in size & may have brumated to get through the cooler months. I'd still say it was subtropical or right on the line though. It had a big honking monitor lizard too which is interesting from a climate perspective.

[light osprey]

Now I’m left questioning a whole bunch of mean climative estimates lol, should I be more cautious when referencing those Polar deposit temperatures?

[little mauve]

The devils in the details right so don't expect them to be exactly spot on necessarily, look at a range of indicators (which is mainly what the good studies themselves are doing) and be satisfied with only having a general idea in most cases rather than a specific number

[dusky stratus]

how many fingers did nanuq have?

[white matrix]

2 iirc since i think it was in the tyrannosaur family

[dusky stratus]

you'd figure as much, but i've seen some recons with three so i'm a bit confused

[white matrix]

Nah i stand my ground on two fingers
(Wait- that sounds so wrong now that ive reread it💀)

[sullen cairn]

Manual didactyl locomotion

[white matrix]

Huh?

[sullen cairn]

walking on two fingers

[white matrix]

Im still confused as hell

[sullen cairn]

if you stand on two fingers, you locomote with two fingers (didactyl)

[tough parcel]

TABLE

You’re not supposed to leak unpublished tyrannosaurs 😭

[sullen cairn]

embargo is for nerds
(dear authorities and/or federal agents, the preceding statement was and still is a joke)

[white matrix]

Nah my brains empty (early shifts this week😭😭)

[sullen cairn]

manual (hands) didactyl (two fingers) locomotion (moving)

[astral kelp]

David Peters trying not to call an extinct Felid taxa a canine (impossible)

[rose thorn]

Southern pops still too scared to hunt the water buffalo Patagonian water buffs are terrifying

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/notsure500-gif-22059086

[astral kelp]

mandible from sinonyx
"we must give up bear-dog andrewsarchus"
Sinonyx:

[white matrix]

Oh its a canine

[trim crag]

it is true that a 3.8 meter black caiman was killed, but it is not true that interactions between these 2 animals are commonly recorded at all. Jaguars don't take black caimans often due to their large size and the general population of black caimans; they are heavily poached and slaughtered either for meat and skin or just out of fear

[astral kelp]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/855501765661949972/1142461128648184041/BCPOJ.gif

[chilly knot]

Hahahah

[white matrix]

LMFAO

[next moss]

Bro💀

[trim crag]

lol you got that from Meta's server

[nocturne gazelle]

Warthunder moment but for dinosaurs

"Dinosaur simulator player leaks unpublished paper on new found, finger walking, tyrannosaur, in order to prove Rexes inaccurate, in game locomotion."

[sullen cairn]

mesozoica when dakotaraptor

[compact leaf]

the dakotaraptor incident is such a blunder

breaking embargo is always unfortunate when it happens but that one crowns the list, it hasn’t happened in quite a while though at least

[heady thunder]

I can only say BASED

[stiff osprey]

we can't even attribute it to malice, i think the mesozoica devs were just incompetent like that

[compact leaf]

that’s honestly the worst part

I’m bored so does anyone know about anything big coming soon? I feel like it’s been a bit dry lately (the only things I can really remember lately were perucetus and cope rex being clickbaity)

[heady thunder]

Cmon, some break embargo for this

[astral kelp]

Potential new material from the bugti hills might be assigned to P. intermedium

[compact leaf]

do not break embargo to answer me, if any feds are reading that it was not my intent

[heady thunder]

Do it, for the memeu

[stiff osprey]

well you see we have this s-

[clever sable]

Wait.... someone broke an embargo on a paper FOR A GOD DAMN VIDEO GAME??????

[stiff osprey]

It was on Dakotaraptor, who turned out to be a super sketchy paper anyway. So like. Fair?

[sullen cairn]

dakotaraptor is truly one of the taxa of all time

[nocturne gazelle]

My friend. People have released classified documents to make war thunder more accurate.

People have inaccurately edited classified documents to buff or nerf a tank...

[clever sable]

Yes I know, im just saying, maybe people should like.... calm down

[light osprey]

My favorite Unenlagiinae 🗣️ (definitely still real and true)

[slow glade]

Was there all 4 seasons durning (sunny summer, cool autumn, snowy winter, rainy springs) the Cretaceous or was it just the wet season and the dry season?

[little mauve]

For most of the planet during most of the Cretaceous it would have been wet/dry seasons. Some upper latitudes may have had more temperate seasons but with subpolar/polar light regimes that make a pretty unusual combination

[slow glade]

Thanks for the answer! 👍

[lavish frigate]

This certainly is a thing

[bright veldt]

David Peters moment

[lavish frigate]

It makes me feel like this emoji

Are David peters pterosaurs digitigrade?

[honest wave]

hey i heard someone broke embargo on a tyrannosaur? whats the word?

[nocturne gazelle]

Can someone explain to me what embargoes are on dinosaurs and why we have them?

[astral kelp]

Word, it was a joke

[stiff osprey]

Any new discovery should not be talked about publicly before it turns into a scientific paper, unless the author working on that discovery allows it. There's various bureaucracies around it but it mainly works to prevent research theft

People can go take a look at the newly discovered X, write a sham paper about it, then publish it before the original author does and get their credit

[nocturne gazelle]

Gotcha, thanks for the info

[split seal]

What does that mean? If you don't mind explaining

[bright veldt]

It was one of the devs that did, Fabiani specifically. He revealed Dakotaraptor's existance early by announcing it coming for the game along with its model.

[split seal]

So basically revealed an entire dino before it was revealed to the Paleo world?

[bright veldt]

Ye

[split seal]

That's funny 🤣, id imagine its not that big of a problem though right?

[bright veldt]

Breaking the embargo on research is a massive deal.

Any new discovery should not be talked about publicly before it turns into a scientific paper, unless the author working on that discovery allows it. There's various bureaucracies around it but it mainly works to prevent research theft
People can go take a look at the newly discovered X, write a sham paper about it, then publish it before the original author does and get their credit - Randomdinos

[split seal]

So it was a massive mistake?

[bright veldt]

It wasn't a mistake. Dude was just a jerk and didn't respect the wishes of the scientists to keep the secret.

[split seal]

That sucks, did the paleontologist get the credit they deserve?

[bright veldt]

I mean yeah

[split seal]

Did anything happen to the dev? Id imagine it would be a massive problem for them

[bright veldt]

I mean idk how that drama ended. Everybody knows him as a jerk at this point anyways.

[zenith tide]

Do you think Spino walked on its hind legs, or on all fours, or both?

[warm saddle]

hind like any other theropod

[zenith tide]

but wouldn't it be easier for them to walk on all fours, especially near river banks, and only stand up for intimidation?

[light osprey]

Well if your arms aren’t designed to bear your mass, I’d imagine it isn’t easier to try to walk on them

[zenith tide]

true

[stray wren]

Currently it's a "we have no clue" but the consensus is leaning to bipedal

[zenith tide]

alright

thanks guys

[snow python]

Which andrewsarchus pic is more accurate?

[white matrix]

The one with human shadow shape on a blue car??

[pearl briar]

wait is that supposed to be a dakotaraptor???
why it is not a turtle 💀💀💀

[clever sable]

Well, Dakotaraptor isn't only a turtle, a good amount of it's material was but not all of it, although Dakotaraptor is still super dubious

[astral kelp]

They’re all wrong in there own ways

[light osprey]

Too cool to not pretend it’s a part of the Lancian group ecosystems 😎

[lavish frigate]

None of them are chonky pig so I’m saying none of them are accurate 🫵

[royal basin]

I think spinos a rare case of it decided it wanted to evolve to do everything except be able to fly but as far as quadruped, bipedal stance I'd reckon and argueeven though they argue its hind limbs were kinda short, that might be the exception of the like one or 2 specimens cough Ibrahims that have said short legs. Not that it couldn't use its forelimbs in a quadrupedal stance/ certain movements like getting up or down (my argument on that being if they assume a trexes arms which can only bear 800lbs can help do the same why can't spino who's arms can exert over a ton of force)

So with my t rex analogy layed out in numbers as a ratio, the average t rex was around 8-12 tons with a forelimb strength between 8-1k pounds. Spinosaurus estimated between 7-9 tons with forelimb strength estimates between 2k-2300 pounds. If t rex is bipedal and has an ounce of credible anything that would support the idea it could use its arms to stand up I don't see why spino weighing less and having stronger forelimbs couldn't by almost twice the amount

[viscid surge]

Isn’t it something to do with the wrists?

Wait hold on do we even have any spino arms?

[royal basin]

They can't pronate to the degree they portray in per say jurassic park but pot spinos arms I'd reckon are about as accurate as u could get

[stiff osprey]

"Theropod arms can't bear weight" is a meme that hasn't actually been tested in the last hundred years, because all theropods we've found have long legs that can easily reach under their center of gravity, and thus are bipedal, no reason to question it

[stiff osprey]

And no, we don't, "Ibrahim is working on a spino arm paper" is another meme. We do have a single finger bone but that doesn't help much

[viscid surge]

[royal basin]

Most everything about spino comes from. Just copy pasting suchomimus upscale in the places we have gaps

[viscid surge]

I’ve read countless spino arm debates and we don’t even have one?

[royal basin]

Which is like 85% of the damn thing if not more

[tough parcel]

Me going tee-hee after I spread the idea of a Spinosaurus arm paper (we’re never getting one)

[tough parcel]

The neotype is pretty complete, I think that’s a bigger number than reality

[royal basin]

Well holy schmolies

But still why it ever evolve the sail??? Why was that evolutionarily advantageous when none of its cousins or relatives have it 🤔 is my question. It got bigger but grew that and a thicker tail along with it

[viscid surge]

My guess is display to be honest, since there’s nothing better so far

[woeful falcon]

Well that's the thing, cousins of it do have their own sails or similar structures. Look at Ichthyovenator

[royal basin]

Well here this wild theory that ties in w yours I've always speculated if display was the case. WHAT IF spinosauris was so sexually dimorphic only the males had sails and all the suchomimus/baryonyx are either female or juvenile spinosaurids as the sail would've been fairly hard to hide from any sort of damage making the lifespan of the males way less

[elfin pulsar]

I was about to say yeah other spinosaurids have sails

[royal basin]

And thays also true just not to the scale spinosaurus had cuz even acrocanthosaurus has a neural spine

Buy whyyy 🤣🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[woeful falcon]

Nature said "grow this thing out" for whatever reason or reasons

[stiff osprey]

Acro's hump probably evolved for different reasons than Spino's sail, it's much shorter and thicker to support muscle attachments. Whereas Spino's literally just

[royal basin]

Like the only modern examples I can think of that even have sails have them for maneuverability like sailfish or certain gliding species of lizards and yes thank u that one in particular

[tough parcel]

Acro’s spines were for tearing sauropods asunder (it was a muscle attachment site last I checked)

[viscid surge]

There are PLENTY of modern examples of similar things spread across fish, reptiles, birds etc

[stiff osprey]

You can tell Spinosaurus was based because after some ninety million years God decided he missed it and decided to remake it 1:1 on a lizard

[royal basin]

So then what if spinos was both display and something similar to acros or is acros not actually like the spinos in the sense where if it flips on its side its a dub

[tough parcel]

Acro spines were significantly shorter and as said, were muscle attachment points. Spino’s was not built like that

[royal basin]

Cuz again that always made me wonder how and why it'd evolve in that way unless it never was on its side or worried about falling over cuz if thays tye case then wtf even more spino 😭

I mean ik falls for tgeropods in general are bad but spino seems like it needs a life alert on itself 24/7

[tough parcel]

I remember someone saying that due to the way Spino’s sail was made, falling over isn’t a death sentence considering that (if it were to roll over onto the sail), the tall spines would break before causing severe spinal damage

[royal basin]

Theropods* and wouldn't that still cause nerve damage though?? Maybe like you said not as bad but still irreversible

[tough parcel]

It would cause some pretty decent damage as any bone break would, but it wouldn’t severely wound or paralyze the Spino

[viscid surge]

(Breaks 90% of bones in spine) “‘tis but a scratch”

[bright veldt]

Might I also add that for another comparison, Dimetrodon spines in the sail would snap or fracture quite frequently and they’d heal back fine enough (sometimes not perfectly but they weren’t serious injuries)

[royal basin]

Well good heavens and here I thought if u tripped it you would claim victory 🤣 and are dimetrodons fused to its spine in the same way???

[bright veldt]

I don’t see why they wouldn’t be? It’s the same principle, dimetrodon’s are just thinner

[royal basin]

I didn't know that well if that be the case then maybe spino was just an oversized overthicc sucho going through an identity crisis

[tough parcel]

Spino physically cannot be a type of Sucho considering they’re separated by millions of years and land

[royal basin]

I know I know 🤣

[viscid surge]

Lived a long time 👍

[tough parcel]

Truuue

[royal basin]

I like to think of it like Pokémon. We start off with a baryonyx, it evolves into the sucho and it's final evolution is the interior crocodile alligator the spinosaurus itself

[tranquil quartz]

Only Spinosaurs isn’t even in the same subfamily as Bary and then Sucho is further apart being in the Ceratosuchopsini tribe

[covert lintel]

suchomimus and baryonyx didn't live in the same time or place as spinosaurus, and are also quite distantly related to it as far as spinosaurids go

[west drum]

Wasn’t there a theory where spinosaurus’s sail could be used for shade on the water which attracted fish or something?

I like to think that spinosaurus’s sail was used for display and maneuverability (?)

[tranquil quartz]

Sexual Display, and Intimidation are probably most likely explanations for the sail

[tough parcel]

https://x.com/PrimevalArtist/status/1701657223565373665?s=20

Falcon9 (Commissions Open!) (@PrimevalArtist)

Hello everybody, I'm back with a new edition, Champsosaurus! An interesting tidbit about this animal is that we might have sexual dimorphism in the fossil record, with C. ambulator and C. laramiensis likely being the same species.

Twitter · Sep 12, 2023, 6:01 PM

[chilly knot]

Finish astorg😠😡

[clever sable]

What would this giant dark green croc be? Deinosuchus? Purussaurus?

[tough parcel]

It’s Puru, the one in the very BG

[clever sable]

Ooh, is there a skeletal that silhouette is based on?

[tough parcel]

Not released because the scaling is iffy, so they don’t feel comfortable with it

[chilly knot]

By dragonthunders

[clever sable]

[sullen cairn]

puru scaling insecurity is a major problem in today's social landscape

[clever sable]

What's iffy about the scaling or are you not allowed to say

[tough parcel]

I don’t know because they never elaborated so

[chilly knot]

A major problem is the undescribed state of Purussaurus postcrania

[clever sable]

That puru definitely seems larger than 11 meters so I'm guessing it's based on the same type of scaling that got the 12.5 meter puru maybe? Idk

[chilly knot]

Looks more like ~11m

[light osprey]

Didn’t someone make a lipped P. brasiliensis

[clever sable]

That definitely seems more than 11 meters assuming that astorgosuchus is 10 meters because purus head alone on that is like the size of the human model

[light osprey]

Hehe I found it

[chilly knot]

Different ratio

[clever sable]

I will spend the rest of my life attempting to find this purussaurus skeletal

[chilly knot]

[compact leaf]

why lip

[stiff osprey]

because :)

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/eh-meh-jim-jim-halpert-the-office-gif-25317293

[stable abyss]

Guys, have a question:
How valid are speculative creatures? (Specially in paleo-art if you can discuss this in this chat)

[woeful falcon]

I imagine there's a fine line between speculative evolution and topic appropriate discussion. At some point its just gonna shift into talking about made up gobble

[slow obsidian]

explain why kaprosuchus isn't the long legged sprinter crocodile

someone in general asked to do this

[stiff osprey]

Its close relatives are not sprinters and we have no leg material that would show Kapro is one

[bright veldt]

We only have kaprosuchus’s head. To find out what the rest of the body looks like, we have to compare to its closest relative, mahajangasuchus, which is pretty complete, and it looks like this

[light osprey]

Artbyjrc has a better one

[bright veldt]

Kaprosuchus might’ve still done a fair bit of the terrestrial life due to how its teeth are built, but there’s no evidence of long-leggedness. The Cuban crocodile’s probably a decent parallel. Inherently pretty standard for what you’d expect but with some terrestrial adaptations

[bright veldt]

Also for another pretty normal looking boi being oddly terrestrial, have a dwarf crocodile https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxInw4NbPnInYokkUtraCzX1xZerVLNOfu?si=V9dW5DokbTCmqQ0f

[main peak]

Mahajangasuchus' legs were definitely a bit longer than modern crocodilians, but it wasn't much. It's possible Kapro's were longer than Mahaja's because it was more basal, but even Kapro's distant terrestrial relatives weren't extremely long legged. JRC's depiction above is probably about the maximum extended height.

[main peak]

Also thanks for that clip, I need to steal that for something lol. Good crocodile walking vids are hard to find 😛

[clever sable]

Anyone know the bone density of acrocanthosaurus?

@stiff osprey you know?

[astral kelp]

you can just use the average theropod density which is 0.97-0.99

[clever sable]

But what if that's not accurate....

[astral kelp]

well it hasn't changed as far as I'm aware so why wouldnt it be?

[clever sable]

I mean what if that's not the bone density of acro

[stiff osprey]

0.95-0.99, not 0.97-0.99

And bone density doesn't matter to full body density. Unless you're Spinosaurus, I guess

[clever sable]

Hmmmmmmmm, would .91 be completely out of the question for acro?

[pearl briar]

does 10 meters long and ~5 tons tarbosaurus is still accurate?

[stiff osprey]

Not if you believe every theropod is .91

[astral kelp]

https://tenor.com/view/hug-love-hi-bye-cat-gif-5848836

[clever sable]

So if someone were to GDI acro you would recommend using .95-.97

[stiff osprey]

around 0.97 for everything other than Spinosaurus and maybe Deinocheirus

[clever sable]

Very interesting seeing as these were the results with a lower density and it gets 6.88 tonnes, maybe this skeletal just isn't good or something? Idk

[sullen cairn]

ooh what server's that

[clever sable]

Gonna DM you because idk if I'm allowed to mention it here as it may be considered advertising

[west coral]

Can you dm me too please?

[stiff osprey]

Likely the latter, I've seen both GDIs and 3d models of Fran's and Hartman's skeletals and they consistently get 5.7-6.1 t

[clever sable]

This is the skeletal it's based on, what skeletal do you think would be better?

[slow marsh]

Fran's? Though i still think Beagliam's is great too

[clever sable]

How unreasonable would a 6.6 ton acro be?

[white matrix]

Sometimes the humans for scale are so funny. "Here's an Acrocanthosaurus for only $99.99! What do ya say?"

[sterile trail]

Jesus, he needs to go on a diet

[nocturne gazelle]

Looks like a guy bringing in his pet for show and tell.

[heady thunder]

"Hello class, this is my pet Acrocanthosaurus, hes very cool, I have trained it to imitate truck noises."

[nocturne gazelle]

And that was the day that all his bullies suddenly became much more friendly

[chilly knot]

Very... Very unreasonable for the acros we have

[royal basin]

So then wait what's spinos bone density???

[heady thunder]

2000 magic numbers

[cloud bane]

knowing spino it's probably something stupid

[clever sable]

So sad 😔

[astral kelp]

iirc it’s 1. Something

[hallow spear]

bone density

[clear wolf]

https://youtu.be/uOf4dWoMN7s?si=oweApWpq86NTWmoT

[tough parcel]

Sobbing because this video hasn’t left me alone for weeks

[bright veldt]

Copium rex exists but really isn’t that reliable, especially when the only measured element is a femur in a taxa that’s the most studied of its kind on the planet.

There’s also conflicting stories on how big it actually is. The video is only one of a few takes.

[clever sable]

Unreliable moment

[steady rock]

you know how some mammals play with their prey while birds and reptiles just rush in, would dinosaurs be on the ladder with just rushing in and and getting the job done?

[stiff osprey]

We have some potential evidence of young tyrannosaurs playing with bones, but determining what they wanted to do with that bone is near impossible. They could just have been trying to figure out how to eat it

[jagged trellis]

its way more complex than that but short answer is: probably, every animal likes to play in some way so wouldn't be surprised with them doing it, heck dinos today play alot

[stiff osprey]

Pretty rare for them to play with live animals, though. So i doubt non avian dinosaurs did it

At least not often

[steady rock]

well. is this fact i found true and would it apply to dinosaurs?
Mammal Brain needs reinforced study and response actions to learn hunting variables (play).
Reptile/Avian brain more instant reactionary and instinct direct to receive outcomes. 0 to 60 attacking of birds to make the kill. The calm to snap of gator jaws.

[stiff osprey]

I think that's more of a predator vs prey thing. Prey do not need to learn to be afraid of things, while predators need to learn how to hunt

Iirc predatory birds have been known to bring live but weak prey to their nest to "teach" young to kill

That's something dinosaurs definitely could have done

[steady rock]

didnt juvie trex have the bite force of or around a acro already at its age?

[stiff osprey]

Juvie in this case is like 11 years old, almost old enough to reproduce

[steady rock]

oh, maybe ado, i forgot which

[clever sable]

Using publicly available silhouettes I have made a (very rough) comparison of all the mapusaurus specimens (take it with a grain of salt though as it's pretty rough but it's also not the most horrible thing ever)

Sizes based on this chart

[pearl briar]

https://tenor.com/view/leave-me-alone-please-nancy-hallsen-the-oval-give-me-a-break-stop-bothering-me-gif-21177578

i'm very tired with this video for god sake

[serene glen]

Guys can anyone help me

[tough parcel]

I can try, wassup?

[stiff osprey]

It was too late, they died 😔

[tough parcel]

Sobbing (crying)

[clever sable]

Hey, random, what would you say your favorite member of carcharadontosauridae would be?

[stiff osprey]

Hard pick between Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus, I think

[tough parcel]

What about Acro or Carchar 🥺

[stiff osprey]

Carcharodontosaurus and I are not on speaking terms at the moment. Acro's alright

[compact leaf]

just pick one they’re basically the same thing (please don’t hurt me)

[tough parcel]

Carchar really cheated on random with Spino 😔

[sullen cairn]

What about the ascended Rio limay carch, taurovenator

[stiff osprey]

No you're right that's why it's hard to choose

They look the same. Giga is more complete but shittily described. Mapu has interesting behavioral implications but is an unreconstructable bonebed taxon

[tough parcel]

If Mapu is just Giga but lankier and smaller…can I name it Nanogigas?

[sullen cairn]

I like the mapusaurus distinct taxon known from a single postorbital

[compact leaf]

I can’t really even make fun of them for all looking the same because I’m a sauropod guy, I have to deal with rebbachisaurids aka limaysaurus 1 2 3 4 and 5

[tough parcel]

The name makes no sense, but it’d be funny

[stiff osprey]

Taurovenator combines the completeness of Sauroniops, the validity of Nanotyrannus, and the novelty of Tyrannotitan. It's really impressive

[sullen cairn]

Truly one of the taxa to be described

[clever sable]

Kinda random but how large was the "giant" Alamosaurus specimen?

[stiff osprey]

According to Larramendi, 26 meters and 40 t

[compact leaf]

is this from before or after his 2020 bender?

[clever sable]

Would there happen to be a size comparison or a skeletal that does along with this estimate?

[compact leaf]

ok rebbachisaurus gets weirder by the minute

in the middle of his 2020 sauropod downsizing bender, Larramendi upsized rebbachisaurus to 26 meters

so the current state of rebbachisauridae is limaysaurus clones 1 through 6, the hoover, and rebbachisaurus being gigantic for some reason

[chilly knot]

No

[stiff osprey]

During

[compact leaf]

ah that makes sense

[stiff osprey]

The 26 meter Rebbachisaurus uses tooth scaling via Nigersaurus, it's hilarious

[compact leaf]

oh dear lord I didn’t know that, that’s somehow worse than normal tooth scaling

[stiff osprey]

Rebbachisaurus, as you know, having no teeth preserved, literally cannot be tooth scaled. He did it anyway

[compact leaf]

the absolute madman

he had to have done it as a joke that’s the only explanation that might let me sleep at night

either that or larramendi has ascended beyond what we mortals are capable of

[tough parcel]

Larramendi did it for the meme, I can respect that

[tough parcel]

Wait…what about tooth socket scaling? (Idk what Rebbachi has preserved)

[stiff osprey]

I don't think it has skull material

[tough parcel]

This is so sad guys

[compact leaf]

there was some isolated teeth and I think it was a dentary fragment referred to it, but they were probably from a few formations and times just lumped together

it’s why you see supposed rebbachisaurus teeth for sale all the time, they are from a rebbachisaurid they just can’t be properly referred to rebbachisaurus

yay tooth scaling

[light osprey]

Damn that’s not far off from the silly little Tibia

[sullen cairn]

man

[pearl briar]

what's wrong with it?
11.5 meters long and 3.9 tons (rounded into 4 tons) sinraptor seems reliable to me

[sullen cairn]

man

[tough parcel]

Eh, it’s only a little off

[sullen cairn]

i love tooth scaling because it gives me my beloved 2t+ ceratosaurus

[light osprey]

Teeth when we try to scale off of them (don’t do it)

[violet trellis]

What do you guys think about the finding of Big Al

[tranquil quartz]

Allosaurus

[royal basin]

I think big al is the fossil equivalent to Peter griffin busting his knee

[vague elbow]

Search up the size of E. D. Copes trex femur fossil, it's circumference gives it an estimate of a weight 2 tons more than Sue and Scotty

[hallow spear]

no.

[next moss]

💀

[tough parcel]

I love you Stego 🥺

Denying Cope fans is so good

[tranquil quartz]

😐

[vague elbow]

What's that for?

[tranquil quartz]

Dk

Cope just annoys me

[vague elbow]

Wdym?

[clever sable]

I hate to tell you but the claims of it being 2 tonnes bigger than Scotty is bogus, here are some more reliable estimates although still shaky due to the fragmentary nature of the specimen

[chilly knot]

Kill the cope hype🗣️

[tranquil quartz]

Fr

[clever sable]

Yes, we don't consider awful fragmentary specimens with dubious scaling 99% of the time (I'm seriously sick of people using the most fragmentary garbage as evidence of something crazy)

[chilly knot]

[light osprey]

Couldn’t be me (avid quadrate believer)

[clever sable]

How does this chart look for a size comparison of all the mapusaurus specimens?

[chilly knot]

Decent ig

[clever sable]

Hmmm, how bad is my scaling for this? Like is it really bad or is it just ok?

[steady rock]

why were prehestoric amphibians able to go in the sea/were sea drewllers but not modern ones?

[chilly knot]

Not at home rn so can't judge

[clever sable]

Oh ok

[tranquil quartz]

Probably because Modern Amphibians have evolved to live in fresh water?
Just like Fresh Water Fish can’t survive in Salt Water

Also what Prehistoric Amphibians are you talking about, Temnospondyls?

[compact leaf]

Iofrida released a new andrewsarchus skeletal today

[vocal breach]

No he didn’t

[astral kelp]

It’s basically GATS readjusted

[sage cave]

how are people guessing what its skeleton looks like? what makes them think its like that? this is a gen question btw

[compact leaf]

based on skull features it’s sitting right outside entelodontidae right now so it’s based off that

[bright veldt]

It's through a process of phylogenetics, where essentially the thought process is "If we don't have ___ of an animal, then we can assume it looks like close relatives that we do know about"

While not an entelodont itself, andrewsarchus is very closely related to them, so it most likely looked like them too.

[sage cave]

i figured thats what the process was, thanks for explaining :]

[bright veldt]

👍

[clever sable]

Some sauropods from Argentina (Patagotitan, dreadnoughtus and Argentinosaurus)

I accidentally made Pata floating a bit

[light oxide]

What server is that from, out of curiosity? Is it a paleontology server or something? I'm curious.

[clever sable]

I believe theropoda, I could be wrong though

[slow marsh]

Yeah it's theropoda

[clever sable]

If only I was in theropoda 😔

[tough parcel]

It's literally open access, no-one is stopping you

[clever sable]

Bro I can't find it, literally nothing comes up when I search it 💀, I've tried like 6 times

[slow marsh]

what? u need invite, i think i have perm to invite u

[tough parcel]

Yea, everyone should lol

[clever sable]

Can ya send me one maybe?

[slow marsh]

Sure

[woeful falcon]

Let fred find it

Consider it a trial

[astral kelp]

Lisowicia weighed more than eo right?

[clever sable]

Bro, I search up theropoda discord and like nothing comes up

[slow marsh]

that's because u can't find the server in any place on internet iirc, Fran created it, so in a while Theropoda was a mysterious place

[sullen cairn]

you can find it on the internet pretty easily

that's how i totally intentionally found it in my infinite wisdom

[slow marsh]

what the, how? i think i joined theropoda in 2020 or 2019 by a friend

[sullen cairn]

hidden within the darkest corners of the internet

[bright veldt]

Eotrike is around 5 tons, and Liso ranges from 5-7 depending on what source you look at. I go with 6 down the middle.

[sullen cairn]

it's an exclusive club

[compact leaf]

I’ve been wondering how to get into theropoda and now I know

[slow marsh]

I saw a link on Deviantart too

[astral kelp]

Damn I wonder how smok was hunting this mf

[bright veldt]

It wasn't. It's too big.

[main peak]

Smok was likely only going after juveniles

Not sure if you can determine if bones in coprolites are adult or not

[stone tartan]

Who is Lisowicia?

[pearl briar]

tyrannosaurus "E.D. Cope" is 9.5-10.8 tons?
ok, noted that

[white matrix]

Yeppp. The E.D. Cope specimen may be as much as 12-15 tons if you factor in the fact that the algorithm used in the studies tends to underestimate bipedal saurians by about 20%.

I’ll see if I can find the paper.

The method of estimation I am referring to utilizes the circumference and length of the femur. Here are the published measurements.

Considering that Cope’s femur circumference was ~100 mm greater than any other tyrannosaur, it could handle thicker muscle attachment had and a much greater potential load bearing capacity.

While healthy skepticism is necessary, there is some credibility.

[grave flare]

Spinosaurus candle was to keep the torso rigid and balance in the water, his short legs were to row in shallow water without touching the ground. Espinosaurus was only on the surface, it was not good to immerse

[grave flare]

The fin also had strong tendons that helped him keep his neck in position "S" and his head high effortlessly. With the rigid and flat torso, the fin that gave him stability in the water, short legs to row and his rowing queue as it is clearly seen that Spino evolved to be a boat

An animal that hunted and lived without much effort is why he could become gigantic. (Although it was not a defenseless animal, I hunted giant fish and lived next to giant crocodiles too)

It is the safest thing that he slept floating in the water so I did not damage the fin leaning aside

[royal basin]

I feel like the whole it's too buoyant to dive and yet too dense to float argument is invalid when several modern species with body plans and density that wouldn't make sense in a aquatic/semi aquatic environment exist without issue of maneuverability/hindrance of movement and knowing that theropods were basically reptilian like birds, I'd reckon that if if had any sort of similarities the spino at least it'd be acting like a giant gooseheron or a swan but with salamander/crocodilian like features. Floating on the surface and diving when necessary but not for long periods of time. I used to think spino was more crocodile like in the idea it would wait for prey underwater fully submerged but it's not evolved for that kind of hunting

[nocturne gazelle]

Are Ballast stones/gastroliths entirely out of the question?

I wonder how much a spino would really need to dive at any rate. It doesn't seem like a pursuit predator and probably was more of a coastal wader. Probably swam just as effectively as it needed to. No more no less.

Could it dive and swim? Probably. Was it the best? Unlikely.

[royal basin]

Well even if we do call it an apex it's bite was just barely highers than carcharodontosaurus, and sarcosuchus blows spinos bite out of the water so for it to be spending as much time in the water as we'd suggest makes me think it had to have been able to at least keep up with a Sarcho unless when a spino became fully grown it like you said didn't really swim all that much and kind of stayed near the shores and waded and wouldn't venture too far away from bodies of water unless it needed to because unless it's forelimbs could exert more power than it's bite as a whole even in water I don't see how else it could've fit an aquatic niche

Semi aquatic*

[nocturne gazelle]

What I'm saying is it may not have needed to be a fast swimmer because it's role wasn't a pursuit hunter. It's role was likely more ambushing while standing in the water.

It would still be a semi aquatic as it spends its time dwelling in swamps, likely swimming between patches of dry land. It just probably wouldn't be very fast or dive for very long.

When it comes real life predators there's much more to take into consideration than just pure bite force alone. As you said the claws are very mean (and also likely safer to use against a sarco than risking your face for a bite. Additionally intimidation is a factor. Spino stands much taller and has a much larger silhouette with its sail. In fact one theory for its sail is as an intimidation tactic.

I imagine the two would just steer clear of each other if given the opportunity.

[slate walrus]

the being taller and higher off the ground just means it’s got a general advantage in a fight, not just intimidation

[heady thunder]

Spino is also like, 4-5 tons heavier then sarco too

[slate walrus]

mb

[nocturne gazelle]

That too

[heady thunder]

Iirc tho, spino did not live with sarco, it lived with smaller croc thingies, so it probably, did not give a singular sh#t about most of them.

Sucho was the one dealing with sarco.

[nocturne gazelle]

Rip sucho

Was bary or sucho the more terrestrial of the two? I can't remember which was which...

[tranquil quartz]

Sucho

[slate walrus]

Sucho is too buoyant to dive comfortably

[nocturne gazelle]

I find it rather ironic that those who sink are typically more comfortable in water.

[grave flare]

The volume of Spinosaurus mass is calculated and the conclusion was concluded that it floated, that is why it was said that it was not good to submerge, of course it could but naturally spino floated as a ship. But these things always have to be taken with tweezers because it was also said that Spino could not be bipedo through the center of dough but that was because they made minimal muscle estimates of the bone that does not take into account as extensions of muscle insertion. Problemally the tail of the spinosaurus was much more massive than it is represented

[heady thunder]

I dont think thats a 1 to 1 type of deal, chimps sink, we dont, but humans are way better in the water.

Ankylosaurs sink, but I dont see people saying that they were hippos.

[slate walrus]

Ankylosaurs also flip upside down if the water is deep enough for them to sink

[heady thunder]

Torpedo anky

[nocturne gazelle]

True

But hippo ano would like to have a word with you

[heady thunder]

Hippo ano is a fun concept, its probably as realistic as that dream where I rode a TRex, but realism sucks anyway.

[light osprey]

Spinosaurus does not generate more force with its bite than C. saharicus and lived quite a few million years later than Sarcosuchus

[astral kelp]

S. aegypticaus was actually downsized to like 3t, so sarcos actually bigger lol

[heady thunder]

Idc about the holotype, I only use the msnm thing.

[light osprey]

I think it would be the neotype thats 3 tonnes

Argh darn I talked about mass. I’ve betrayed my values

[heady thunder]

Whats the holotype at? Or was, since it got blown up.

[snow python]

So it seems Copium was around 11.3 tons

[heady thunder]

12.4, 11.3, 10.8, 10, 9.5, who cares, hes huge.

[snow python]

Most recent estimate is 12,9m and 11,3 tons

[heady thunder]

Next week itll be 12.8 and 11.4 tons.

[snow python]

I heared people talk about that big dubious Rex specimen Celeste, any idea how big it was?

[heady thunder]

No idea, Sue still the OG.

[snow python]

And the most complete Rex rn

[heady thunder]

Overall or out of the big ones?

[snow python]

Big ones

[light osprey]

Sue’s aesthetics go hard

[snow python]

Trix and Scotty are big but less complete

[light osprey]

Doesn’t Trix have a pretty decent mount

[snow python]

Trix is 75-80% complete. Not sure how big it is thoug hand i don't trust wikipedia

[storm heron]

The mass for the largest Rexes seem to be all over the place from what I see

[heady thunder]

Trix

Thats a dope ass name.

[storm heron]

I see that "Sue" was GDI-ied as around ~10,000kg (or was it more than that?) but I've seen a recently posted GDI of Scott Hartman's "Sue" put it at ~9400kg